#asciilifeform | 2022-04-01

I blame large businesses.

00:01

the meaningful applications still there, but succumbing under pressure to employ 'indians'

00:01

(and once 'colonized', become fungally inhospitable to anybody else)

00:01

More generally, a capitalist eventually realizes he doesn't need to sell a working product to make money, so why would he?

00:02

verisimilitude: in the end yes

00:03

asciilifeform: it's a valid point, which i need to think about, but my sort of immediate response is that genuine application gets overwhelmed by overal failure.

00:03

in the end -- does

00:03

Notice this didn't happen when computers were being sold to replace human processes.

00:03

for instance as i understand naodays doesn't much matter whether boeing's comps crash

00:03

if they aint flying

00:04

asciilifeform: like the ee people complaining about all the recent grads reaching for arduino when they need to solve simple circuit problem

00:04

The hardware failsafes are part of why there's no incentive to hunt down each flaw, asciilifeform.

00:05

phf: they complain and then carry right on filling class w/ indians and teaching 'matlab' button press sequences as 'engineering'

00:05

logs good reading today :)

00:06

but larger point, dun matter whether have 3 tandem cpu and provably correct avionics stack, or hemp ropes like wright brothers, if the failed society doesn't in fact need (or can afford) airplane in any kinda mass

00:06

then becomes like in 1900 matter for individual flyer, if any exist

00:07

i.e. decommercialized .

00:07

Sure, but without them, there won't be any.

00:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091249 << many thank. just needed confirmation it'd been received. paste.deedbot.org is limited lifespan, yes?

00:07

Logged on 2022-03-31 18:56:54 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091191 << forgot, will get to it later today or tomorrow.

00:08

Most people would just have sex and take soma all day, if they were allowed.

00:08

in asciilifeform's pov, many aspects of computation have reached this point. i.e. you can't 'dload on srcforge' anyffin resembling actual cryptoroutines.

00:08

Logged on 2021-01-21 16:37:28 asciilifeform: as for encryption -- 99+% of what's 'out there' in the sense of 'readable by plebe armed w/ google' was written specifically to ensure that actual crypto aint there when you in fact do need it.

00:09

rot13 is all i need

00:09

verisimilitude: while somebody keeps lights on, yes

00:11

asciilifeform: easiest crypto is to mail somebody a clone of ssd with random bits on it, and then one time pad it for a lifetime of alice to bob communication

00:11

phf: easy if you've a fast trng

00:11

Yes, just between Alice, Bob, and the mail system.

00:12

otherwise either will sit for rather long time to fill it, or exercise in prng delusion

00:12

(if latter -- many less sweaty faux cryptos to choose from)

00:12

verisimilitude: 'mail' dunhaveto mean usps. can be diplo pouch or inside yer shoe etc

00:13

*

asciilifeform presumed in that sense

00:13

It's an important detail.

00:13

noshit

00:13

*

asciilifeform recalls multiple yrs of back-n-forth gpgrams w/ mp trying to 'sell' him on iron otp...

00:14

There's also the matter of verifying the message. I still like my method.

00:14

verisimilitude: can think of over9000 methods, which consume varyings qtys of pad, but generally not hard

00:16

there's an ancient arg, which i suspect phf was alluding to, that 'if you think you need adult crypto, 8999 of 9000 chance yer a sad larper' and it seems impossible to refute, but then remember that bitcoin exists and in fact as sensitive to the given problems as anyffin in 'adult' spy biz and genuinely makes a diff on own skin.

00:16

Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.

00:17

asciilifeform: yes thank you for making my points for me :)

00:17

i.e. is 1 of those very same 'meaningful applications' for which would be notbad to have actual quality mechanisms

00:17

phf: it's funny to me how internet crazies are always so attracted to "The Holy One Time Pad". I guess because it's simple enough that they can understand it and offers "information theoretic security".

00:17

phf: pretty sure i get phf's pt and for most part not disagree..

00:18

zx2c4: dun recall whether you were there for the thread where mp revealed that doesn't in fact grasp the (not complicated) proof re otp

00:18

where 'promised to break if bias in plaintext'

00:19

phf: but back on planet reality... chacha20 is fine...

00:19

asciilifeform: haha really? no i dont remember that

00:19

zx2c4: can you restate my point to me so that i make sure you understand it, because i'm pretty sure you don't, and arguing something else entirely.

00:19

lulzthread for posterity

00:19

(trilema) 2016-02-06 mircea_popescu: long, deeply biased plaintexts are dangerous for otp.

00:21

phf: i just read you saying, "asciilifeform: easiest crypto is to mail somebody a clone of ssd with random bits on it, and then one time pad it for a lifetime of alice to bob communication" and was idly musing how various internet types tend to think this is The Ultimate Way that all crypto should aspire to

00:21

zx2c4: generally in softwarism just about any idiocy 'is fine' if the value of you & yer cargo is ~0

00:22

and the proggy is in fact part of some kinda tea ceremony.

00:22

zx2c4: ok, well, so that there's no misunderstanding this is not what i'm talking about

00:25

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091450 << yeah i believe we're on the same page. i mean to some extent tmsr was an attempt to figure out this problem. "i'm a programmer, what shape should my amish community take so that my skill is a force multiplier" :D

00:25

Logged on 2022-03-31 20:17:02 asciilifeform: phf: pretty sure i get phf's pt and for most part not disagree..

00:26

happy fools, ya april!

00:30

I'm not an expert, zx2c4, but the OTP is the only unbreakable encryption mechanism, so what's so bad about acknowledging that?

00:30

nothing? rather, I'm amused about those who fetishize it

00:31

there's old joak where frogs hire a consultant, to tell'em 'how do we avoid being eaten'. owl consultant goes to desk, thinks, next day comes back w/ fat bill and answer. 'become hedgehogs'. frogs: 'how do we become hedgehogs?' owl -- 'i'm a strategic consultant, not a tactical one'

00:31

phf ^

00:31

Well, ``OTP rule 34'' means something entirely different.

00:32

verisimilitude: it's worth to remember that to actually make otp live up to shannon's proof of 'unbreakable' takes mechanisms that aint avail. to typical redditard. (and, not unimportantly, meticulousness that is even less avail. to him)

00:33

(and then to remember that same thing applies to all other cipherisms similarly)

00:34

hence wai attractive to 'fetishists', for whom there is no anticipation of actually ~doing~ it, or staking any actual stakes on it, so the 'conceptual' is unblemishedly sexy

00:35

same folx go in for e.g. haskellism, because 'sexy' when you dun have to actually write programs in it

00:35

and many other similar 'sexies'

00:36

iirc there was at one time in #t even a thrd about pistols, where folx who actually gotta carry'em erryday, allday, prefer very diff. ones from typical 'enthusiast' who keeps in safe and takes out on weekends

00:39

from an 'amish' pov, not only is e.g. 'pest' a waste of perfectly good joules, but even airplane. in fact most of 20th c. is 'waste'. and good % of 19th.

00:39

from that pov asciilifeform doesn't much care to 'become hedgehog', even if get to a pt where nuffin other than a hedgehog can live.

00:40

the monkeys can have their planet then, or the cockroaches, etc

00:41

in actual practice, however, the folx w/ working airplanes, radios, ciphers, etc. reliably make ground beef outta folx w/out.

00:41

and expect this'll continue.

00:42

and has implications on small as well as large scale.

00:42

e.g. folx who had btc in 2010s, and haven't parked it on mswin, moar likely still have theirs.

00:44

this on premise that 'still having it' in fact is 'force multiplier'. which presently -- yes

00:44

from this by implication certain other aspects of kompyooting, in fact 'force multiply'.

00:45

i.e. matters what yer doing, with what.

00:45

*

asciilifeform bbl

00:56

lots of unexplored subjects :)

00:56

Care to comment on Elision, phf?

01:02

zx2c4: to clarify the point i was making was that dearth of crypto is not a deterrent to someone with a true need, that is all. and ascii got it

01:03

crypto is downstream from opsec anyway, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1090940 like in an earlier anecdote

01:03

Logged on 2022-03-31 15:18:00 phf: there's a handful of famous (second hand, i've never pursued, but "everyone knows") of some loud mouth hodl personality get robbed at gun point for coins

01:08

verisimilitude: i've read it before, it's a cool scifi story without code. seems like something straightforward to hack in lisp and then wire into your emacs irc client to demo it. or produce a handful of texts using elison prototypes?

01:09

The only prototype uses a toy constructed language, but that's better than nothing.

01:11

i once got really high and was riffing a scifi story to a group of friends, where you have these ais that encode your communication style and manersisms and such. but you program them using piano keyboards. the aristocracy of the future compose write love letters and make public speaches by composing the sentiment, "playing the ai". of course it's all done because of the very limited bandwidth of interplanetary communication. you

01:11

deliver your ai imprint by slower-than-light travel, and then you can do telepresence at senate from across the galaxy

01:11

the chemicals echanced the impact of the story, it was a pretty fun trip :)

01:12

That's part of the overall idea: Increase the utility of the network by aggressively decreasing the size of the data.

01:12

i assume something like japanese input was at least part of your inspiration

01:13

It's also much more efficient to process.

01:13

No.

01:13

I thought about why we represent text character-by-character, and realized it was stupid. That's it.

01:17

verisimilitude: would it be much different than running a bible through inflate, then pre-sharing the dictionary?

01:26

Rephrase that.

01:27

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091496 << see also

01:27

Logged on 2022-03-31 21:10:27 phf: the chemicals echanced the impact of the story, it was a pretty fun trip :)

01:27

*

asciilifeform dug up by google, 'pogrtwem', which lulzily autocorrected to 'pogrom'

01:39

verisimilitude: there's a class of compression algorithms called dictionary coders. you compress by building a dictionary of sequences that are then referenced from the compressed part. a variation pre-builds a static dictionary by compressing a bunch of reference material, and then reuse the static dictionary on new data from same class

01:40

e.g. compress shakespear, and then use that same dictionary to compress any other english text

01:41

There are important differences.

01:41

... or the '90s pasttime where feed rng into the decompressor & get 'shannonized' shakspear

01:42

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-25#1080748

01:42

Logged on 2022-02-25 13:26:38 verisimilitude: Consider the problem of searching from one point to another, forwards or backwards, for the first word beginning with some specified letters. Let me know when to share my solution.

01:43

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-25#1080882

01:43

Logged on 2022-02-25 22:16:35 verisimilitude: I'll just reveal mine answer now.

01:44

I notice a message of mine was cut brief.

01:44

'how to find one's keys?' 'reach into pocket' 'but they aint in pocket' 'wtf is wrong with you, keys always in left pocket'

01:44

This is power, turning figuring on words into figuring on symbolic, bounded integers.

01:45

verisimilitude: what do you get outta pretending that the cost of the scheme is 0 ?

01:45

(it's a rather straight 'robbery of peter to pay paul')

01:45

I'll prove my method, asciilifeform.

01:45

I won't give up on it.

01:45

nobody demanded taht verisimilitude 'give up' lol

01:46

I've analogies I can give on this as well.

01:46

simply that the scheme has substantial cost. and very few likely would want to pay it if in a position where must decide

01:46

To the C language programmer, calculating a string's length and storing it before it be needed, as all decent languages do, may well be considered cheating.

01:47

Most people be in no position to judge the cost of anything.

01:48

To most people, garbage collection is an unbearable cost, and yet fixing memory errors aren't.

01:49

verisimilitude: still waiting to hear a plausible explanation for wai in yer scheme the dict won't look like jp unicode (what with over9000 hieroglyphs that were 'somebody's family name')

01:49

Furthermore, it helps to bind a domain. An Elision targeting one language won't be tricked with words from another.

01:49

Oh, it may, to some extent.

01:49

1 answer can be 'be a swede, and yer name is from this-here list of 300 names' but what if you aint a swede..?

01:50

and dun want ?

01:50

There's always an escape hatch in the form of the auxiliary dictionary.

01:50

and nao most of e.g. asciilifeform's log lns take 2-3x the space because embed aux dict entries. win?

01:50

Hey, asciilifeform, how can I code buffer overflows in Common Lisp, for when I want that kind of thing?

01:51

verisimilitude: why substitute concepts and propose that to speak nonstandard word is equiv to 'buffer overflow' ..?

01:51

Well, Elision is intended for someone who uses language properly, so don't use it is the only answer there.

01:51

so we have it then there. 'be a swede'

01:51

'dun wanna'

01:51

'fuckyou'

01:51

not much of a persuasion neh

01:51

i'm sorry but i'm failing to see the difference between lz77 family, your dictionary is a sorted binary tree of some sort?

01:51

It's not a tree.

01:52

phf: his scheme needs a standard dict. e.g. 'midi for human lang'

01:52

While but a toy, look at The only prototype. for some basic ideas.

01:52

( why btw do we need symphony orchestras if have midi synth , surprised that verisimilitude not asked this mega-q )

01:52

Elision isn't the total answer.

01:52

or why vocoder not replaced all singing..

01:53

(maybe not erryone wants?)

01:53

I'm disgusted by the idea of fixed character sets in general.

01:53

... but not fixed wordsets?!

01:53

I should be able to add my symbols.

01:53

Again, there's always an escape hatch in the form of the auxiliary dictionary.

01:53

recall what 'embeddable fonts' got us in wwwliquishitronics

01:54

(nao erry 2bit fishwrap embeds MB of font, lol)

01:54

verisimilitude: but do you understand how lz77 family works?

01:54

It's conceivable that asciilifeform could have his auxiliary dictionary for his writing, but it's not a good idea on the level of individual IRC messages, no.

01:54

I probably know the gist, but I'd need to review.

01:55

However, this goes further than compression.

01:55

Imagine a program, phf, which can be asked questions about language, and which can't be tricked, for it knows the valid language and what isn't.

01:56

aka spellchecker?

01:56

man's riffing, let him be :)

01:56

( surely verisimilitude had sumthing moar interesting in mind )

01:56

A spellchecker ``falls out'' of this design, along with other things.

01:56

Most interesting is the Latin, phf, which is very regular.

01:57

Consider storing the text as words, and the words as base words and declension or conjugation codes.

01:57

The only reason I've not yet started is because I know my Latin is too immature.

01:57

or sanscrit, they both tend to be "regular" because regularized and then sealed

01:58

There's value in this, even if I be the only user.

01:58

lojbanization is nearing 80y.o. at this pt, but somehow not 'wins' afaik anywhere

01:58

worth to ask wainot

01:59

Lisp is nearing seventy years old at this point, but somehow doesn't win in the hearts of men.

01:59

lojban makes lisp look like 'the wheel' tho, in re wins

01:59

The answer, asciilifeform, is most people are dipshits.

01:59

this -- solvable, target audience where not dipshits. but even there not wins.

02:00

Yes, such as by targeting Latin.

02:00

verisimilitude: are you familiar with most successful 20th c conlang ?

02:00

adlai's

02:00

It's Esperanto.

02:00

moar modern hebrew speakers afaik 10x than esperantists

02:01

Now, sure.

02:01

but recall how it went ? do they speak biblical hebrew in israel ? why not

02:01

I don't know.

02:01

under field conditions, the irregularisms leak right back in, because the lojbanist model of language aint actually complete

02:01

not even because 'people dipshits'

02:02

Also, phf, obsessing over this has led me to a neat style of programming.

02:02

( esperanto also illustrative, what the esperantists speak aint quite what is in the spec . )

02:02

I'm building something for people who speak language properly.

02:02

Regardless, my design can accomodate quite a bit.

02:03

verisimilitude: there's an ukr joak, 'one ukr -- is a fine fella. two ukrs -- best buds. three ukrs -- is a partizan brigade with a traitor'

↖ ↖ ↖

02:03

but can your compu-ter recite pushkin, monsegnor verisimilitude?

02:03

But, sure, after a point, only character-by-character methods work well. After a point, using character-by-character methods don't work well for modelling graffiti, either.

02:04

At the very least, it would be a higher-level archival method.

02:05

It could, conceivably, be used to improve such things, phf.

02:05

verisimilitude: already nothing stops folx from archiving w/ e.g. lzw, and carrying the dictionary. but iirc you want a standard one. i.e. to procrust language into an lzw dict.

02:06

I've a dream, a dream of my computer greeting me ``SALVĒ, DOMINE''.

02:06

not erryone finds this procrustism appealing. and not 'because dipshit'

02:06

can do this nao neh.

02:06

Sure, but not well.

02:07

There's no point in discussing this further. I want to make more progress first.

02:07

by all means makeprogress

02:07

Oh, one other thing, are we aware of the Robot 9000 algorithm?

02:08

*

asciilifeform not

02:08

The idea is to make a forum more interesting, by preventing exact copies of prior messages from being sent.

02:08

i'ma guess this resulted in spam where sequential nonce or rng appended ?

02:09

Usually, people thwart it by adding a new word, yes.

02:09

moar interesting would've been to mandate that a new msg compresses poorly against set of prev msgs

02:09

However, it could be slightly improved by Elision, by only counting words in the primary dictionary.

02:09

(for some defined threshold)

02:09

this'd nail people for quoting reply text tho

02:10

Once a suitably large subset of a language be known, there are interesting things which become possible with a whitelist.

02:10

verisimilitude: as described above, this scheme doesn't require an apriori dictionary

02:10

It doesn't, no.

02:10

and aint clear how having apriori dict makes it moar effective or the result moar interesting

02:11

so you only count words in dict. so spammer only uses these. where's the win?

02:11

Well, to be fair, it would mostly result in people adding words, rather than garbage, so it doesn't, no.

02:11

Still, I can foresee similar such situations in which it may be more useful.

02:11

it's trivially gamed, no matter how you arrange it

02:12

precisely as bayesian spamfiltrators were gamed

02:12

Yes, but I've a dearth of similar such examples on which to apply Elision.

02:13

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

02:13

the way to 'keep out morons' is not to live in anonysoup to start with

02:14

and not only because 'can kick'em', but because soup ~attracts~ morons

02:16

*

asciilifeform not yet encountered this shangri-la verisimilitude spoke of, where anonymous toilet somehow ~not~ packed to the gunwales with liquishit in which impossible to discern anyffin interesting even if were intent on trying

02:20

Does asciilifeform want a link to one?

02:24

verisimilitude: sure

02:25

/λ/

02:25

This is one of them, and is my personal little space.

02:25

loox to be a pseudonymous rather than anon forum tho

02:25

various people w/ nicks

02:25

The names are automatically assigned randomly.

02:26

It just looks like that.

02:26

100% randomly ? i.e. 'xerxes' and 'delilah' come outta rng errytime ?

02:26

The intent is to make someone actually using a name harder to notice.

02:26

No, from a set.

02:26

I added many programmer's names to the set, also.

02:27

*

asciilifeform stabbed randomly at the thing and found e.g. this, where 'Ada didn't have a way to provide the memory safety guarantees Rust has until June 2018. And if you take a look at what AdaCore did about that you'll realize they just copied Rust's CREW/borrowing model.' rly is mega-intelligent & informed discussion nao ?

02:27

at least it aint straight viagraspam. so that's sumthing

02:27

but so far not impressed otherwise

02:28

Is every line here great?

02:28

not for asciilifeform to say, lol

02:28

Do know I started the Ada thread. Absolutely no one even mentioned it, until I did.

02:29

aha, here is apparently verisimilitude

02:29

I greatly enjoyed the first comment in this thread.

02:29

anyways, ok forum, approx on par w/ early 2000s slashdot. and not spammed to death. how not -- nfi, perhaps verisimilitude knows

02:30

Anyway, it's not perfect, but it's mine.

02:30

perhaps is simply question of 'not yet'

02:30

rather like how usenet was only spammed to death in early 2000s, and not prior

02:30

It gets moderated.

02:30

I'm one of the moderators.

02:30

a was aboutta ask

02:30

how much modding it takes , typically ? (how many turds does verisimilitude pick up on a typical day?)

02:31

Actually, I've barely logged in lately. I've beat the bad part so consistently that the animal doesn't rise up much anymore.

02:31

indeed can run a forum this way. asciilifeform used to

02:31

So, colloquially, most of the users are ``trained'' by now.

02:32

at one pt even reddit looked rather like this

02:32

i believe the adage is "fuck jannies"

02:32

hm?

02:32

I'm a ``janny'', asciilifeform.

02:32

wassat?

02:33

It stands for ``janitor''.

02:33

a

02:33

Actually, I'm the highest level of staff, though, an administrator.

02:33

what do the low levels do ?

02:33

Usually, what they're told.

02:33

or rather, what can they do that rando anon can't?

02:34

Mostly, we just delete bad posts and respond to user reports.

02:34

They can ban, make fancy posts, etc.

02:34

i.e. low admin can moderate, high admin can add/remove low admins?

02:34

An anonymous forum can't survive well without heavy moderation.

02:34

Sure.

02:34

is that the complete structure or is there moar

02:35

The structure is as follows:

02:35

An administrator can make new ``boards'', edit posts, ban people, configure PHP, and like things.

02:36

A moderator can ban people.

02:36

A janitor can only delete posts.

02:36

a

02:36

There are other details, such as being able to see IP addresses, and whatnot.

02:37

It's decent; my pay was doubled recently.

02:37

anyways looks reasonably well janitored

02:37

sorta like early slashdot

02:37

thimbronion

hello from ES

02:37

*

asciilifeform was expecting to see sumthing terrifying, like dvach

02:37

thimbronion: wb

02:38

Don't go to /hum/, which is a bit of a mixed bag.

02:38

There has also been an issue with trannies making estrogen threads on /drug/, but they get deleted.

02:38

lol!

02:38

By ``issue'', I mean two or three times.

02:39

what's the expected subj on '/drug/' ?

02:39

Take a guess.

02:39

i.e. only for drugs that work on head ?

02:39

The advice is to discuss things ``your friends'' are doing.

02:39

I don't use it much.

02:40

I made a caffeine thread, years ago, and that's it.

02:41

Here's a thread that looks neat.

02:43

reasonably good snr per today's net. pray to satan that yer forum never becomes reddit.'popular'

02:43

is typically how these nature preserves of '90s net die.

02:44

It has existed for roughly eight years so far.

02:44

at certain pt the effort to janitor exceeds what anyone is able/willing to do

02:44

8y? notbad

02:44

Notice it doesn't even have a captcha.

02:44

We don't even prohibit Tor posters.

02:45

So, a decent anonymous forum is possible.

02:45

#a hasn't got a captcha either lol

02:46

you can have a reasonably clean public park. if far enuff from 'civilization'.

02:51

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091349 << >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-05-17#1914461

02:51

Logged on 2022-03-31 19:34:56 phf: asciilifeform: well, that's my "end of tmsr" take, really when the needs of the republic started conflicting with the needs of the individuals, without republic giving any promise of satisfying those needs... etc. etc. bb living in butt fuck nowhere off mp's pitance, while mp posting pictures of lavish dinners.

02:51

(trilema) 2019-05-17 trinque: republic is scant of profit centers

02:52

constructing it as a self-sacrificial march was always stupid; I said this loudly for years.

02:53

the needs of the republic with a halfway sane leader would've been "I need you to build the next version of MPEX; get your ass down to CR to get started."

02:53

*

signpost being an idiot, thought this was the play that would surface "any day now" for far too long.

02:54

there is *no* reason that we couldn't have been x to defi as btc is to eth, except that the one guy who could've funded that startup was, if a genius, first a pervert.

02:55

signpost: why would've he wanted the 'de' tho

02:56

given who he was, didn't.

02:56

aaha

02:56

*

asciilifeform wrote his orig ' re btc ' largely about 'where are the p2p systems'. to this day can ask this q.

02:57

they aint there. largely cuz p2p aint aboutta make anyone 'rich&famous'

02:57

sometimes the king can only be richer by spending money.

02:58

yea but if only way to become 'king' is by corraling the bipedal cattle -- then unsurprisingly no path from here to there

02:59

*

signpost means that if it's at all true that mp had 1mil *btc*, and not nominal value on mpex equiv., he was this person who could've only been richer by spending.

02:59

fwiw he had at least coupla 1e3 sitting around

03:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091445 << while still on the subj, everything in one value system is larping to an arse sitting in another value system.

03:00

Logged on 2022-03-31 20:16:02 asciilifeform: there's an ancient arg, which i suspect phf was alluding to, that 'if you think you need adult crypto, 8999 of 9000 chance yer a sad larper' and it seems impossible to refute, but then remember that bitcoin exists and in fact as sensitive to the given problems as anyffin in 'adult' spy biz and genuinely makes a diff on own skin.

03:01

mp was not wrong about "meaning existing within a structure of authority which cannot be predicated on the meaning" even if he lifted it straight from the greeks.

03:01

this was enuff to satisfy all 'animal' urges, so unsurprisingly stopped there (discounting the megalomaniacal noises, made 0 serious to make moar other than via same pyramid as started with)

03:01

the suicidality of that speaks for itself.

03:03

( not that it was much possible to palpably 'make moar' via honest work )

03:03

Logged on 2021-11-17 18:34:12 asciilifeform: ... favours so heavily that if somebody 'was there in 2011' and lost 99% of his hodl, is still fatter than anyone who 'is hero' ~today~, regardless of the latter's actual valuable contribution (to anyffin at all, incl. maintenance of troo bitcoin & assoc. systems)

03:03

this is an intrinsic 'bug' in btc arguably.

03:03

to 'make 100k btc' today you gotta either break a cryptosystem or raze a continent, approx

03:05

at even 1k level yer prolly either 'sessile, like sea anemone' or concerned w/ an aim that dun resolve to 'make moarcoin'

03:05

nature seems balanced enough to handle these mistakes, work them out.

03:05

if not to our satisfaction.

03:06

resolves errything , lol

03:06

upstack, it's "larping" to stay alive. we don't interact with the territory, but our fantasy map.

03:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091324 << yes, but also to generate *why bother doing so* at scale.

03:07

Logged on 2022-03-31 19:29:31 phf: asciilifeform: i think rich and poor was never the problem. the aim was really to create a closed economic system. the amish have it, the hassidim have it, the various "families" have it, etc.

03:08

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091710 << oddly enuff asciilifeform was sympathetic to this pov. folx who 'want job' 8999/9000 times timeservers & sad company

03:08

Logged on 2022-03-31 22:52:08 signpost: the needs of the republic with a halfway sane leader would've been "I need you to build the next version of MPEX; get your ass down to CR to get started."

03:09

there's the practical matter of what to eat while writing whichever item.

03:09

rent out a warehouse and put cots

03:09

is what they do in sv , but somehow not produces much edible

03:09

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086086 << tmsr was a machine we were building to do this.

03:09

Logged on 2022-03-20 12:38:12 signpost: would far rather know the ~100 people on earth with whom he can refine his sanity than shotgun his farts to all of twitter

03:09

it's above any particular goal. it's the refinement engine for meaning-making.

03:10

eh, this isn't a hypothetical. I made one, will make another.

03:10

the guy should've stopped being a miser and picked a hill to take, and we would've taken it.

03:11

it isn't that no one can produce saleable product w/ warehouse fulla coolies. obv. some do. but rarely anyffin moar interesting comes of it than 'turn 1m$ into 3m$'

03:11

sure, I know your distaste for capitalism very well at this point, lol.

03:11

*

signpost isn't responsible for the game with which we get food.

03:11

don't even like it very much.

03:11

once you have 1e3btc, the exercise, per mp's own telling, stops being interesting per se

03:12

is wai he wasn't building bauxite refineries in tajikistan or etc

03:12

rum and riptide not interesting either, looks like.

03:12

guy didn't look happy.

03:12

"here's this sad whore that lets me play with zip-ties" etc

03:12

this is not the kind of man that takes the moon.

03:13

this is vehery common failure mode of 'look i'm rich' folx

03:13

sure is.

03:13

they like to autoerotically hang selves, or die in diy chopper crash, etc

03:13

from sheer boredom.

03:13

'because they have no theorems to prove'(tm)(r)(p.erdos)

03:14

No amount of money will let a man take the moon.

03:14

when you invent another means of organizing work at scale, do say.

03:15

I could get one trillion dollars right now, and still have no chance of making it to the moon, except in an urn.

03:15

well what mp nominally (at least when half coherent) wanted , wasn't a thing that submits to 'coolies at scale'

03:15

It obviously doesn't work that way.

03:15

we're doing platitudes, or you're going to say why?

03:16

It requires scientists and resources and many other things, things someone with mere money won't be allowed to collect in necessary quantities.

03:16

*

signpost ftr said nothing of "enough money = x"

03:16

so if you're addressing a particular line, link it.

03:17

what I said is that a man who claimed grand things made a fetish of making men want them.

03:17

and that was that.

03:17

there was nothing else there.

03:17

verisimilitude: 'money aint fungible' is the mega-'discovery' there. as mp found out when realized he couldn't even send a wire anymoar

03:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091757

03:17

Logged on 2022-03-31 23:12:00 signpost: this is not the kind of man that takes the moon.

03:17

(cuz last fella who'd do it for him was asciilifeform)

03:17

verisimilitude: your head voices told you I was talking about money.

03:17

I said otherwise above.

03:17

I don't hear voices, I have hallucinations, get it right.

03:17

lol

03:18

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091743 << it is this machine that takes all things, in all times.

03:18

Logged on 2022-03-31 23:08:39 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086086 << tmsr was a machine we were building to do this.

03:18

( see also story of king midas... )

03:19

sure, old failure mode.

03:19

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091736 << i don't think that part was lacking, mp was solid at generating meaning

03:19

Logged on 2022-03-31 23:07:01 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-31#1091324 << yes, but also to generate *why bother doing so* at scale.

03:19

how do you conclude that?

03:20

if meaning's just a matter of other men being convinced, sure.

03:20

signpost: yes :)

03:20

phf: 'generated meaning' all the way until swallowed own tail and 'anyffin i say is meaning, is what meaning is'

03:20

then we disagree. convince them to eat their pistol. how long do things mean?

03:21

( e.g. kju in north kr also 'generates meaning'. professionally. care to partake? )

03:21

signpost: well, no. think of st crispin's day speech. i think the speech part was solid, it's just the part where we all went to fight the french that didn't work, because mp was not leading the charge with his men. so to speak

03:22

after all there was peak tmsr, 2017 maybe early 2018 or so, when there was heavy infrastructure building activity

03:23

sure, the guy could read and regurgitate well enough.

03:23

the results lacked.

03:24

per asciilifeform's lights, e.g piz was a suicide mission, already a product of 'must succeed the mp way, with human torpedo , or doesn't count' , the correct solution to 'hosting sux' was p2pism and asciilifeform noted as much at the time

03:24

*

signpost may be from a bad life, but is unmoved by the man that speaks beautifully before I die for him.

03:25

passed on an invite to CR, because by then expected to be thrown against the wall next.

03:26

signpost: i think that might be a hindsight perspective. because the rousing speech necessarily happens before the battle.

03:26

sure, one gets older.

03:27

So I'd the foresight perspective, phf?

03:27

easy there; you're going to strain your back.

03:27

( recall what happened when asciilifeform recreated piz outta thin air in own backyard. 'not count' cuz actual mp objective was 'palace of obedience' rather than 'i want an isp')

03:28

verisimilitude: no offense, but i have no idea why you're part of this conversation :)

03:28

lol

03:29

I joined #trilema, got told to read the logs before I could speak in his presence, and saw him for what he was.

03:29

It could've just been a lucky guess, I suppose.

03:29

you're a boy trying to get us to undersign your egotism.

03:30

I don't need help to feed that.

03:30

lol+

03:30

may your life remain as easy as it has been.

03:30

fwiw verisimilitude could've taught mp a coupla things re how to solipsist, lol

03:31

at any rate, if meaning has no relationship to the real, can indeed be nothing more than "everyone's convinced"

03:31

(seems sometimes even moar insulated from economic reality than an mp)

03:31

*

signpost considers meaning which is moved by encounters with the real the useful definition.

03:32

that's the 'failure of rich' -- when 100% tune out physical reality (at least until ocean current pulls you in, chopper crashes, autoerotic noose a little too tight)

03:33

dunno that it's the wealth that's failing, but yes

03:33

send an old man to qatar. comes back broke and with nuffin, let'im starve, then try & find another idiot

03:33

there was always fear there, and it had opportunity to avoid what was feared, did.

03:33

*

signpost neither knew the man well enough nor is the psychologist to say what.

03:34

( or recall for that matter BingoBoingo's orig. mission in 'bisp' )

03:34

run off with knife and can of beans into the woods, and I expect international commerce by next quarter, or how did it go?

03:35

approx

03:35

signpost: well, that's an interpretation that puts all of us in a bad light, re "everyone's convinced". there were plenty pragmatic elements to tmsr. deedbot wallet was not just a fetish, nor were various projects that were in many ways innovative or sometimes way ahead of its time.

03:35