Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-03-30 | 2022-04-01 →
00:13 asciilifeform << when sumbody gets around to baking a proper irc bridge. ( would like to leave #a/dulapnet around for noobs to step into )
00:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-30 18:39:43 phf: channel move to pest when
00:13 asciilifeform bidirectional bridge.
00:15 phf is ignore message supposed to have valid timestamp/*chain/speaker fields?
00:16 phf /fields/data/
00:17 asciilifeform nope
00:17 asciilifeform or rather, doesn't need to
00:17 * asciilifeform doesn't recall whether blatta handles this specfully
00:22 phf the spec implies that message prelude is always valid for the various message types, but then the payload for ignore is random data. really it's the entire 428 bytes of ignore message that's random
00:22 asciilifeform thinking about it, ought amend the spec, ignore oughta have valid timestamps, or can be replayed to cause some annoyance
00:22 phf ah
00:22 phf yeah
00:23 asciilifeform errything else in header can remain rubbish
00:25 asciilifeform phf: spec is very much a work in progress, and there'll probably be at least one totally breaking change in upcoming revs
00:25 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 12:00:49 asciilifeform: ... so imho, that scheme still probably best approach so far.
00:33 crtdaydreams signpost: can my WoT key please be updated as per
00:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-30 19:44:37 crtdaydreams:
~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~
02:10 thimbronion asciilifeform: blatta expects IGNORE messages to have a timestamp
02:11 thimbronion phf ^
~ 27 minutes ~
02:38 phf aye
~ 2 hours 33 minutes ~
05:12 mats
~ 7 hours 5 minutes ~
12:18 mangol actual quote from a National Security Journalism Fellow [sic] on twitter today: "If Democrats want to avoid a mid-term wipe out, they need to stop talking about inflation, crime and the economy. Voters care about 3 things right now: Trump's collusion with Russia in 2016; abolishing the gender binary and protecting public school students from their parents"
12:19 mangol can't make this shit up
~ 1 hours 54 minutes ~
14:13 whaack !e view-height
14:13 trbexplorer block_height: 729841
14:13 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 87
14:14 whaack ah, miners are on a coffee break
14:16 whaack phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site
14:23 PeterL whaack: if you make one that is easy to set up and use, it would be a nice thing that each person could have on their own sites
14:32 asciilifeform hm why irc interface rather than www hopper ?
14:35 PeterL yes, a www hopper would work too, I was more thinking about having a nice way to view the vpatches, like btcbase does
14:41 whaack asciilifeform: the irc interface means it can be integrated with pest so that upload is limited to pest peers
~ 39 minutes ~
15:21 asciilifeform a
15:25 thimbronion !e view-height
15:25 trbexplorer block_height: 729846
15:25 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 32
~ 59 minutes ~
16:25 signpost << "I call on all states to criminalize the use of the 'Z' symbol..."
16:26 asciilifeform (tm)(r)z^Helenskiy
16:27 signpost best and brightest in ukr government, eh?
16:27 * shinohai imagines Don Diego de la Vega weeping in a corner ....
16:29 asciilifeform meanwhile in misc. ukrowank.
16:32 signpost iirc I saw this morning that the ruble had indeed risen to pre-war levels.
16:32 asciilifeform almost
16:33 signpost
16:34 signpost not bad while the entire world is laying siege to your monetary system.
16:34 signpost sadly my gold was lost in the same boating accident that took out my btc.
16:36 signpost "But, by doing this he has very subtly also supported the Fed and it???s plan to withdraw dollars from Europe, because this will keep the price of gold in check for a little while and keeping the ECB from offsetting spiking Eurobond yields with higher gold reserves on its balance sheet."
16:37 signpost asciilifeform: affixing my tinfoil hat, the ukr episode smells of a struck deal ^
16:38 signpost "Putin on the left arm, Powell on the right and Lagarde is about to get pulled apart at the seams if Davos doesn't play ball and give up." etc
16:40 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform orig. suspected that meat of the 'deal' was to sell us lng at 10x the antebellum rate to eureich
16:41 asciilifeform likely this part will happen on sched
16:42 signpost this, perhaps damage the euro currency system. economic destruction of yurp propped up the american empire last time.
16:42 asciilifeform purportedly us only can supply ~tenth of the req'd fuel tho. which means curtain call for what remains of industry in eureich
16:42 signpost meanwhile putin and xi get to switch to their own currencies for exports.
16:43 asciilifeform could've, afaik, ~decade ago tho
16:46 signpost might've been waiting to let us soften up, meanwhile piling up gold.
16:57 * asciilifeform recalls recent lulzy reich.decree 'cancelling'(tm) ru gold
17:01 billymg << saw this the other day via orlov's blog (which has been entertaining lately)
17:01 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-31 16:29:07 asciilifeform: meanwhile in misc. ukrowank.
17:05 billymg << i'm not completely in the camp of "muh based russia" but there's a certain amount of "the enemy of my enemy..." in how i view the situation
17:05 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-30 01:51:22 phf: there's the new right wing eschatology "i'll leave for russia, which is not the globohomo!", with its mirror urban russian escatology "i'll leave for anywhere else, which is where iphone!"
17:07 asciilifeform billymg: is somewhat complicated, ru brass aint 100% external to reich
17:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-28 22:21:08 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform's guess is that he's hobbled by traitorous ministers who already reserved villas in miami. is the only half-plausible explanation for over9000 'whys'
17:07 signpost only "out" I ever contemplated was "tmsr in 50 years"
17:08 billymg btw wb phf, encouraging to see people i read in the logs long ago return
17:08 asciilifeform in the time of the prev. reich this was called 'internal emigration'
17:10 billymg asciilifeform: true, but it seems china/india/brazil are on russia's side as well in this. or perhaps just *not* on america's side
17:11 signpost on the side of a "multi-polar world" they say.
17:12 billymg yeah, which beats a purely reich ruled world imo
17:12 billymg or at least that's my hope
17:12 signpost perhaps, but unclear if that's true for *you*
17:13 signpost my italian relatives came to philly, lost everything that made them italian.
17:13 signpost not being a downer here, just stating plainly that changes in world order affect everything.
17:16 asciilifeform signpost: in the days when the anglo reich's 'lift was headed up', this was commonplace. but observe how today's south amer. folx in usa aint 'assimilating', they're solidly 'spanish' n gen later
17:17 * asciilifeform lives near a great many of these, they openly fly mexican, salvadorean, etc. flags, raise chickens, have mega-parties w/ over9000 relatives, won't hear any english spoken when walking by
17:20 shinohai i like the mega-parties, just take the hot girls wherever you here mexican polka and you got a night of free booze.
17:21 * billymg wonders if an actual sovereign like russia or china will ever do a "passport4life for 5 btc" kind of scheme like el salvador (which does it for 3)
17:21 billymg asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?
17:21 thimbronion billymg: not clear if ES has passed that legislation yet. Talking to a guy next week.
17:22 billymg ah, got it
17:22 signpost shinohai: unless I misremember, you look like you're in their wot.
17:22 billymg thimbronion: you're there now, right?
17:22 signpost this makes all the difference, lol
17:22 thimbronion billymg: I fly in today.
17:24 thimbronion signpost: IMO white privilege thriving amongst latinos
17:25 billymg what i'm hoping is that the "multi-polar world" *will* benefit individuals (with btc) because countries will offer protection in exchange for some
17:26 billymg but unclear, trend seems to be to make all use of btc outside of reich licensed/authorized venues illegal
17:26 billymg and even in multi-polar world could see the poles aggreeing on this
17:27 billymg agreeing*
17:28 shinohai signpost: the latino wot? Yes, extensive meat wot exists in that world.
17:30 * signpost can get brown as all hell, got italian and greek genes helping with that.
17:30 signpost but I'm outed as soon as I try out my spanish.
17:36 shinohai i sound like that guy in the ending of kill bill
17:37 asciilifeform << ru passport aint over9000 hard to get (esp. if you speak ru), but in all cases you gotta move there 1st
17:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 13:20:55 billymg: asciilifeform: if russia offered that, would you take it?
17:37 asciilifeform ( and see also )
17:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 22:05:27 asciilifeform: not moved anywhere, because what actually wants is to move outta workschwitz, and at his place in foodchain this requires 'a different globe' rather than simply plane ticket..
17:38 billymg asciilifeform: i meant supposing you had a stack of btc to survive on for a few lifetimes
17:39 billymg and russia's agreement was simply, 5btc, then yer free
17:39 asciilifeform billymg: if. tho for these afaik ru aint the easiest place to run on btc
17:39 asciilifeform ( phf might know concretely )
17:40 billymg i was also imagining in that scenario that they'd have a more open btc enconomy
17:41 asciilifeform now this prolly science fiction
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 10:45:24 asciilifeform: mats: asciilifeform finds interesting the continued disdain for btc in ru (and not merely among officials, who run own 'printer, brrr' and one'd expect, but among commoners) -- is seen as instrument of foreign domination
17:42 billymg just wishful thinking at this point, but if people prove really good at keeping their cold storage cold then countries might start to return to the carrot as a way of getting some
17:42 asciilifeform problem is that one gotta eat erry day, and not simply when wind blows in correct direction.
17:43 asciilifeform 'system can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent'(tm)(r)(the zerohedge people)
17:43 billymg yes, this is a 'hodl until victory' strategy
17:43 bitbot Logged on 2022-01-15 00:51:23 asciilifeform: 'hodl' until victory/death.
17:43 billymg but things are moving fast lately, could be sooner than we think
17:44 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
17:44 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $45824.8
17:44 asciilifeform ^ so far the various dampeners work a++, war had less measurable effect on '# of 0s' than e.g. 1 fart of musk last yr
17:45 asciilifeform i.e. btc-usd exch rt aint in any serious way uncoupled from the moneyprinter
17:47 thimbronion asciilifeform: btc rarely goes up significantly in response to positive news in the short term. If it did, line drawers would be $rich.
17:47 * signpost doesn't expect moar movement til block reward halves.
17:47 asciilifeform signpost: i dun recall any palpable effects from any prev. halving
17:47 billymg exchange rate seems orthogonal to a country making it freely legal / selling citizenship for it
17:47 asciilifeform ( erry time folx expect one, and lolno )
17:47 signpost depends on whether you consider the run to $70k an effect.
17:48 signpost certainly not settled.
17:48 billymg in fact, if exchange rate is low, better deal for the government, they get more in btc terms
17:48 asciilifeform signpost: afaik that was the musk fart run
17:48 asciilifeform and when he sucked the fart back in, 100% reversed
17:48 billymg countries should jump on opportunity to court reich refugees now
17:48 billymg before it grows another zero
17:49 asciilifeform normally 'court refugees' happens when they're good for sumthing. e.g. the various highly qualified specialists from sovok in '70s, usg buttered'em up over9000 (and most ended up driving cabs anyway)
17:50 billymg why not good for the fact that they have bt
17:50 billymg btc*
17:50 billymg which they would otherwise take to the grave
17:50 * signpost is of two minds about the block reward schedule.
17:50 asciilifeform well in that case yer meat, and what the 'courter' actually wants aint yer earthly carcass, but the coinz
17:50 asciilifeform wouldja want to be in that position voluntarily?
17:50 signpost on the one hand, it may be a design flaw that the amount of reward per unit of time does not change depending on demand of BTC.
17:50 billymg they don't get your coins is what i'm saying
17:51 billymg you die with them
17:51 billymg they die with you
17:51 signpost on the other, perhaps this results in better distribution of coins.
17:52 signpost this supposes that the bubbles forming and bursting cause miners to unload more of their hodl in the bust.
17:52 asciilifeform billymg: what they bank on is that you won't take'em to grave.
17:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-05-01 asciilifeform: basic course on russian privatization. 'your formerly state-issued flat is now yours. you are a millionaire!' - 'neato. but my salary hasn't been paid in a year. gotta buy something to eat. what does dinner cost?' - 'half a million.'
17:53 asciilifeform i.e. the german j00 gold extraction algo.
17:53 billymg asciilifeform: i.e. exchange rate games?
17:53 signpost the use of fiat-side financing to avoid distributing hodl might also be a design flaw.
17:53 billymg keep the rate suppressed so that you have to voluntarily spend your stack
17:53 signpost thwarting the distribution mechanism supposed above.
17:53 asciilifeform billymg: mno
17:53 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-13 20:46:45 asciilifeform: in train to auschwitz, glass of water cost exactly 1 gold watch.
17:54 billymg difference is they can lift the watch off your corpse
17:54 billymg they can't take the keys
17:54 asciilifeform often enuff they didn't need to take it off the corpse, tho
17:54 billymg if you find yourself on the train car just blow your brains out to spite them
17:55 * signpost suspects they didn't have too many firearms inside said traincar.
17:55 asciilifeform naturally. point was, why voluntarily buy ticket for such a train
17:55 signpost also "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
17:55 billymg asciilifeform: ah i see
17:56 billymg asciilifeform: so you were more saying "it's a trap!" if any country offers you something in exchange for btc
17:56 asciilifeform signpost: recently finished reading backbreaker, eichmann trial. on a few occasions someone in fact came off the train with a pistol
17:56 asciilifeform billymg: correct
17:56 billymg asciilifeform: could be, but i could also see some governments realizing that, at least for btc, carrot it more effective than stick
17:59 asciilifeform interesting to consider what that could look like, in principle
17:59 signpost asciilifeform: much respect to whomever got one up their cunt/asshole.
17:59 asciilifeform e.g. if moscow were offering $1mil in rub equiv. per btc to any resident
17:59 signpost billymg: only question I have is why the btc extraction would be "fair"
18:00 signpost i.e. "passport costs... what you got?"
18:01 billymg signpost: it doesn't have to be fair for all definitions of fair, just has to be "more fair" than 20% capital gains + suppressed exchange rate
18:01 asciilifeform fresh passports historically cost 'what you got', yes
18:01 billymg then the next country offers slightly better deal, and so on
18:02 signpost << would expect most of the "unfair" to come after the paperwork.
18:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 21:40:19 phf: i also attempted to recreate similar lifestyle in russia, and my take is that russia is kind of a shithole. unless you're going for the whole "one year in taiga", there's not really place to put a compound of any kind: there's going to be some local warlord or prince that'll decide to fuck with you, just because you stand out/have resources/etc.
18:02 asciilifeform in uy, ru, etc less so, because these aint traditional 'escape' destinations
18:02 asciilifeform iirc phf already had the passport tho
18:02 signpost "heard some yankee fuck thinks he'll post up in a cafe for the next 40yrs. will have my cousin welcome him"
18:03 asciilifeform signpost: 'the chechen treatment' aha
18:04 asciilifeform 'Не покупайте квартиры у Маши, они всё равно будут наши'(tm) ('don't buy a flat from masha, it'll be ours soon enough anyway')
18:05 asciilifeform ^ common graffiti in '90s ex-sovok during init. 'soft' ethnic cleansings
18:09 asciilifeform 'don't buy mary's flat, soon you'll own it just like that'
18:10 * asciilifeform wonders what the spanish rhyme will look like when anglo folx start 'making legs' from usa
18:10 billymg what's "making legs"?
18:10 asciilifeform turning tail
18:11 asciilifeform or however it's called
18:11 billymg ah
18:11 signpost "high-tailing it"
18:12 * signpost bbl
18:12 billymg is it wrong to want to flee the bad guys?
18:13 asciilifeform billymg: the only 'wrong' thing is to have unrealistic expectations of cashability of yer assets in such flight
18:13 * signpost not criticizing anyone. I'm up against the same bad alternatives.
18:14 billymg i'm not so pessimistic, though maybe the world is 100% rule-by-orc
18:16 asciilifeform if we're talking science fictions, e.g. asciilifeform would move to ru if for 'court warez cracker by personal appointment to his majesty' etc.
18:16 asciilifeform but if it's merely 'buy 1room flat in moscow for 5btc' then naturally gotta ask 'and then wat'
18:21 asciilifeform fwiw atm the opposite is happening.
18:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 21:56:23 phf: heard a joke, "it took medvedev 10 years to build skolkovo (a kind of technopark dev shop area in ru), and only a week for putin to turn yerevan into silicon valley"
18:22 asciilifeform ( mass exodus of programmers & other bit-flippers outta ru, not even voluntarily but simply because the 1 way to live decently there as a wage worker was to work for the money-printing foreigners )
18:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 21:57:12 asciilifeform: well afaik they're mostly a 'i work for london and would like to keep getting the paycheques' emigres
18:23 billymg so i finally got the raid card and correct 2.5 to 3.5" sled adapters for my server but i can't get the thing to boot a gentoo install disk. worst part is nothing seems obviously wrong (gives single "all good" post beep, bios appears to work fine and doesn't show any errors, ram check on post passes)
18:23 asciilifeform hmm billymg which card
18:24 billymg also tried removed all but two sticks of ram, rotating those, tried without the raid card plugge din
18:24 billymg plugged in*
18:24 asciilifeform and where precisely does it stop
18:24 asciilifeform (what's on the screen?)
18:24 billymg asciilifeform: this card:
18:25 asciilifeform billymg: were you able to get into the card's boot rom menu ?
18:25 billymg asciilifeform: first displays post screen, with "press DEL to enter setup". i can go into bios settings just fine.
18:25 billymg get's stuck after that step
18:25 asciilifeform how about the raid's post rom ? doesn't appear ?
18:26 billymg when it gets stuck there's nothing on the screen, display just says "no signal from input"
18:26 asciilifeform billymg: if it's a supermicro mb or similar, you gotta enable pci boot roms in bios
18:26 billymg asciilifeform: never gets to raid's post rom, no
18:26 billymg asciilifeform: the thing is, i've tried booting with the raid card pulled, same thing
18:26 asciilifeform a then sounds like a dud mb
18:27 billymg even though happy bios settings screen, happy beep?
18:27 asciilifeform iirc billymg's kit was dropped from a cliff in shipping ?
18:28 billymg i.e. nothing is screaming "error"
18:28 asciilifeform billymg: try leaving it on the thermal monitor subscreen in the bios for coupla hrs
18:28 asciilifeform see if overheats
18:28 * billymg hasn't tried for a couple of hours but did notice "low" cpu temps on that screen after a few minutes
18:29 asciilifeform billymg: do you own a 'post card' ?
18:29 billymg i do not
18:29 asciilifeform is what asciilifeform uses in cases like this
18:30 asciilifeform is the only way to quickly detect e.g. failing line in ps, dud ram where not gets even to vga, etc
18:30 asciilifeform billymg: do i recall correctly that this box was dropped in transit ?
18:31 asciilifeform (or was that whaack's..?)
18:31 billymg asciilifeform: dunno if dropped, but bent somehow
18:31 asciilifeform billymg: bent almost always means -- dropped
18:31 billymg the board/chassis is the least expensive part of the build, could order another one
18:31 asciilifeform ( how didja think it bends ? )
18:32 billymg asciilifeform: heavy objects on top will also bent
18:32 billymg bend*
18:32 billymg this was carried in a suitcase, not shipped
18:32 asciilifeform if properly padded, the only way it'd bend is if were dropped
18:33 billymg in any case, yes, damaged during shipment
18:33 * asciilifeform when transporting to uy, had several bent rack ears, in corners where ~impossible to pad well, but errything electronic survived
18:33 asciilifeform when returning boxen after fall of piz, finally realized that the ears do come off..
18:34 billymg asciilifeform: from visual inspection it seems like everything is fine with the internals
18:34 billymg bios even recognizes the usb stick plugged in (shows correct vendor, etc)
18:35 asciilifeform billymg: the nearest i've seen to your case ( 'bios ok, but stone dead after post') was a sad ps, where not in fact sufficed to run the box after all cpus brought up
18:35 billymg interesting
18:35 asciilifeform difficult to say precisely whether yours -- this, or not, tho
18:35 billymg i can try plugging directly into the wall instead of the UPS
18:35 asciilifeform ps
18:35 asciilifeform not ups
18:36 asciilifeform i.e. the box's
18:36 billymg right but was thinking potentially the UPS isn't delivering enough
18:36 billymg to the PS
18:36 billymg or is that not possible?
18:36 asciilifeform nah if it were tripping, would notice
18:36 billymg ah
18:36 asciilifeform billymg: see if you can swap in ps from similar box
18:36 billymg will try the other ps then, came with two
18:42 thimbronion this is where a tyan mb with a nice post code display would come in handy
18:46 billymg oh well
18:46 billymg no luck, with the second ps either
18:47 asciilifeform likely the mb then
18:47 billymg asciilifeform: it was this guy:
18:48 * asciilifeform has a # of boxen with this mb.
18:48 asciilifeform not seen this particular headache with'em to date
18:48 billymg $125 for the board, chassis, and two opterons
18:48 asciilifeform notbad
18:48 asciilifeform evidently dinged tho
18:49 asciilifeform (not even necessarily en route to castle billymg , even; price seems almost suspiciously lowball)
18:49 thimbronion asciilifeform: I run one of them - has been humming along for a couple years
18:50 thimbronion they even do support calls
18:50 billymg thimbronion: iirc you got yours from ebay too?
18:50 thimbronion billymg: yeah same guy, likely
18:51 billymg thimbronion: interesting, similar price too?
18:51 thimbronion billymg: yep
18:51 * billymg assumed the low price was because "burned out in google datacenter" prior
18:51 billymg hrm
18:51 billymg might just try ordering another one then
18:54 billymg asciilifeform: any progress on the extra dulap?
19:03 asciilifeform billymg: not in past mo. but will put it on front burner in coming wk
19:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-30 13:13:55 asciilifeform: fed claudia (rip) w/ syringes 7x/day for past month (couldn't eat normally)
19:04 asciilifeform meanwhile, 'The US State Department announced on Thursday that it will offer a third ‘X’ gender option on passports as of April 11...'
19:04 billymg asciilifeform: ty, appreciate it
19:07 verisimilitude It's nice to see mutant representation.
19:08 billymg reminds me of this
19:08 bitbot (trilema) 2018-01-08 btcvixen: my id says female though
19:08 billymg
19:08 bitbot (trilema) 2018-01-08 asciilifeform: and i'ma rhinoceros!
19:09 billymg in 2022 asciilifeform can indeed be rhinoceros if he likes
19:10 jonsykkel still waiting for pronoun field in addition to speaker in pest messages
19:11 billymg wainotinspec!? transphobic!
19:12 verisimilitude I can't put the ukrainian flag in my Pest name, because it doesn't allow Unicode.
19:14 phf asciilifeform: not sure where that whole there's no btc in russia comes from, or the part about foreign control.
19:14 asciilifeform well not 'no'
19:14 asciilifeform but would expect not large % of the pot atm
19:14 asciilifeform ( if phf knows reason to suspect otherwise , plox to expand )
19:18 phf there's a handful of famous (second hand, i've never pursued, but "everyone knows") of some loud mouth hodl personality get robbed at gun point for coins
19:19 phf *famous cases
19:20 phf both as a "gop stop" and as an organized targeted raid
19:20 phf so nobody talks about coins, who has any sizeable amount of coins
19:21 asciilifeform aa
19:21 * asciilifeform recalls hearing of at least 1 such robbery
19:23 PeterL verisimilitude: sure you can
19:23 phf but as far as "btc economy" there's just a lot of zoomer pragmatism, there seems to be a lot of high convenience coins at this point, that one can use to buy coffee or more often get paid by a shady london crypto company in exchange for your dev skills
19:23 UkrainianFlag_PeterL haha, like this
19:24 Z >.>
19:25 Z Где все мои товарищи пролетарии ?
19:27 phf various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)
19:30 phf also banking infrastructure is 20 years ahead of u.s. probably on par with chinese (i don't have personal knowledge, but that's the word). can do free micro transactions by counterparty's phone number/cc number/qr code/contract number. can e.g. buy street shavarma by doing a phone to phone transfer 150rub with no commission in real time. pretty much all the hole in the wall shops (electronics, horse equipment, hookah places, that's my
19:30 phf personal experience) will use card to card transfer
19:32 verisimilitude
19:32 verisimilitude ``I continue to call on the Congress to swiftly pass the bipartisan Equality Act, which will ensure that LGBTQI+ individuals and families cannot be denied housing, employment, education, credit, and more because of who they are or who they love.''
19:33 verisimilitude That should be ``or whom they love''; how sloppy.
19:34 verisimilitude Anyway, it's nice to see the same nonsense used to push negroes on everyone will be used to push trannies on everyone.
19:35 phf as far as "republican" use of coin that goes back to the part that you can't really know until you experience it: there's no freedom in russia, because it's not part of cultural make up. the only reason to hodl is so that you can go to spain, buy yourself a house, get eu residency and "finally live like a white man"
19:43 phf there are of course exceptions to above, but they are non-overlapping. former millitary guys who like shashlik and ohota, living in the middle of nowhere, have no use/interest/etc. for anything more complicated than a radio. on the other end you have crypto barons (all 1 or 2 of them?) who long left to south america, because that's where all crypto barons go.
19:44 * asciilifeform reads w/ interest phf's observations from voyage, but can't comment in depth as has not himself been there since ancient times
19:45 asciilifeform evidently 'miamiism' still goin' strong on ru
19:45 * asciilifeform wonders if will change shape when eureich no longer 'living like white man'
19:46 signpost street shavarma for equiv $1.84!
19:46 * signpost easily spends 12-14 bucks at the nearby halal place for one plate.
19:46 asciilifeform similar to e.g. ro
19:47 asciilifeform (where had mega-dinners in mp-grade restaurants for 2 for ~20$)
19:48 asciilifeform << 'flashing the hodl' is at this pt prolly bad for one's health anywhere on planet3
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 15:26:08 phf: various hackers have shown me their android wallets/exchanges where they would have their mixture of "coin X i get from work" "coin Y i trade to make extra $200/mo" and "i also sometimes buy into my bitcoin hodl", but it's a poor form to show the hodl, or even imply how much (or how little)
19:49 * adlai routinely gets questioned about being 'crypto millionaire', it is quite exhasperating
19:49 asciilifeform wb adlai
19:50 asciilifeform iirc adlai stepped in a gluetrap with the rosencrantz fella or what was his name
19:50 adlai I am not, nor do I "live like", any sort of millionaire; yet almost everyone irl remembers that I'd mentioned bitcoin on and off in the past decade.
19:50 adlai ... what?
19:50 asciilifeform him
19:50 dulapbot Logged on 2020-01-07 11:02:09 adlai: << indeed, first time I ever played Go against Meni Rosenfeld, he had said something like "it's not a game if there's no clock" about chess to the people who were there to play chess against him
19:51 phf signpost: there's a lot of wins like that in ru. i mean if you're going there as an american tourist it's awesome
19:51 adlai I actually almost went in to business with him, years ago
19:51 asciilifeform adlai: right, and the vultures remember, presumably
19:52 * signpost knows two folks that were exchange students in iirc st petersburg, spoke highly of it.
19:52 adlai he had an idea for an AI-ish company, and wasn't going to found it alone, although was open to collaborating; then I went to the university instead.
19:52 verisimilitude We almost went in to business, years ago, adlai.
19:52 asciilifeform ( see also.. )
19:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 22:01:04 asciilifeform: well anywhere 'expensive' if yer broke; and conversely
19:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-29 22:04:36 asciilifeform: was never happier anywhere than in '17 in ro, but only brought enuff green for 2wks and after that had to go back to where one gets more
19:52 phf signpost: you can do the whole mp style adventure, go to some dirt poor place, get the best of everything, etc.
19:53 asciilifeform a++ if you've a bottomless sack of green
19:53 signpost maybe in the 2030s, if everything settles.
19:53 adlai verisimilitude: well, that would've probably remained a more conventional situation
19:53 adlai iiuc, asciilifeform was referring to startups
19:53 asciilifeform signpost: in 2030 likely ru/cn tourists w/ bottomless sacks of diff colour having ripper of a time in gringolandia
19:54 phf friend of mine's favorite russia story: paid kalyanshik an equivalent of $50 to stay after hours and tend to his kalyan
19:54 asciilifeform we used to have these in washingtonistan, but fell victim to crackdown on smoking
19:55 adlai phf: what is 'kalyan' ?
19:55 phf hookah
19:55 verisimilitude So, how goes thy website, adlai?
19:55 * signpost was a weirdo that had a hookah in his place in college. enjoyable ritual.
19:57 phf signpost: it's a complete scene in russia. fully stripped of arab influence, it's basically an alternative to going to bars. and they pack it /excellent/, check on you every half hour, adjust as needed.
19:57 adlai verisimilitude: badly; I've actually not added to it in about a year. I have accumulated typewritten pages recently, and at some point will need to setup some flow for scanning what I want to edit on a computer.
19:58 verisimilitude Alright.
19:58 signpost pretty cool. great for extended conversation.
19:58 phf signpost: like this is a representative place
19:59 phf yeah you can clock 3+/hours easy. order food delivery from nearby high end restaurants, they brew tea for you. i already miss it :D
20:00 adlai signpost: 99% by volume of the hookah I've smoked in my life was when hosting Americans for whom hookah was part of the middle eastern experience and they wanted to experience the middle east, damnit
20:01 shinohai My ex wife and I had a hookah before we got married, I called it the "steam roller" but it really resembled a samovar.
20:01 adlai remaining 1% was a remarkably similar situation - friend from the military, quite non-arab, yet in the few times I went drinking with his friend group, it was always at places that had a hookah per table as part of the furnishings.
20:01 signpost for me, was a refinement of the habit of sitting around a fire pit smoking cigarettes.
20:01 adlai yeah, the nice ones look like elegant glass samovars
20:02 adlai I find that the flavors of different shishas (the hebrew, possibly arabic, word for the hookah tobacco) are actually distinguishable
20:03 adlai whereas different cigarettes are all the same asphixiating smoke, as far as my nose and tongue can discern.
20:04 * signpost rolled own when he smoked. the mass produced coffin nails all taste like shit.
20:06 adlai I had a nice long conversation about Russia, last time I was in the 'drunk tank'
20:07 adlai the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia
20:07 adlai he did not have any good things to say about Israel, yet insisted that Russia was worse. declined to elaborate.
20:08 adlai fellow had no local connections of any kind. got Israeli citizenship by being jewish, and was in the middle of military service.
20:09 adlai if he plays his cards right, he can turn into a perfectly satisfied middle-class cog after military discharge
20:11 phf cool story bro
20:12 adlai welcome back to civilisation, phf !
20:14 phf adlai: ty!
20:15 * phf would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it
20:15 phf *is
20:17 phf the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there
20:19 adlai well, how about "welcome back to chatting on irc after such a long silence"
20:19 adlai my little vacations are nothing compared to yours
20:19 signpost phf: hard to say where better is at this point even within the US.
20:20 signpost e.g. austin's brilliant solution to being overrun by homeless was to shove them into the surrounding woods.
20:20 * signpost expects that'll be back on the streets in greater numbers before long.
20:21 asciilifeform << ditto, lol
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 16:14:52 phf: would like to know where civilization see so can come back to it
20:21 signpost california and pacnw are a zombie apocalypse.
20:21 billymg signpost: when i was in austin an uber driver told me houston and dallas would load theirs onto busses and send them to austin
20:21 asciilifeform << like prolly almost anywhere in usa, 'livable' if you can muster the $$$ and terraform
20:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 16:16:41 phf: the entire eastern corridor has turned to shit in the past three years. i honestly have no idea how ascii can live there
20:22 billymg knowing that austin would keep 'em
20:22 signpost it's possible, though houston also has a huge amount of dirt-cheap housing.
20:22 signpost and still has crackheads on the streets.
20:23 asciilifeform over here no one interesting on street; but also not even close to 'dirt cheap' anyffin
20:23 * adlai has no idea where Tel Aviv stashes its homeless population; most of my attempts at conversation with them fail, except for one guy, with whom if I start talking, I will literally have to tell him "ok, I am leaving now, if you keep talking, it will be to yourself" because he will simply launch into an interruptible monologue, stopping only to breath
20:25 adlai talkative fellow actually has things to say; claims to have worked at various industrial plants when much younger, most of his rant consists of describing the various garbage he encounters. earns his food by collecting recyclables from trash cans.
20:26 * asciilifeform encountered these in usa, tho not recently
20:27 asciilifeform << lol, a drunk tank w/ a 90+y.o. in it ?!
20:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 16:06:17 adlai: the other inmates of cell were an old dude who spoke only yiddish, and an immigrant from russia
20:27 asciilifeform merciless shithole..
20:27 adlai he refuses charity, or at least, does not want it; seems to have entered some equilibrium where he works industriously enough at collecting recyclables, and avoids police by being sufficiently familiar with local neighbors to know where to park his shopping carts without getting complaints
20:28 adlai I have no idea why the old guy was there!
20:28 adlai he was incoherent. maybe even tried to speak hebrew, or russian, and simply sounded like yiddish by being so drunk.
20:28 signpost maybe the pigs got tired of asking where to take him.
20:29 phf signpost: a handful of people i know moved to austin, and it's the kind of people i'd rather not follow there. i guess it's a running joke at this point
20:29 * signpost moved here in the "Leslie's running for mayor" era, long dead now.
20:29 signpost inundated by tech bros and ilk.
20:30 signpost Leslie was a famous local homeless guy who ran around in a banana hammock.
20:31 * asciilifeform bought a deliberately unremarkable-looking house on a lot bordered by parks, in sparsely-inhabited outskirt of prev. locale, but not moved there yet, notenuff cycles
20:31 asciilifeform currently having it set up for 'offgridism'
20:31 asciilifeform & other useful, inconspicuous upgrades
20:32 phf neat, is it further east?
20:32 asciilifeform phf: nah, in shadow of umd
20:32 phf aah
20:32 signpost gun laws are pretty strict, I imagine.
20:33 asciilifeform signpost: md is somewhere b/w tx and ny in fascism
20:33 signpost can you at least paint your ceiling with an armed intruder?
20:33 * signpost has the "no obligation to retreat" thing
20:33 asciilifeform in principle. will likely cost you dough in practice
20:34 signpost yeah, this everywhere in the states.
20:34 asciilifeform aha
20:34 signpost would have to deal with some liberal prosecutor.
20:34 asciilifeform best defense in usa is generally 'camouflage'
20:34 asciilifeform like anywhere else
20:35 * signpost figures either ranch in central texas or land in rural NH within the next year or two.
20:35 asciilifeform neato
20:35 signpost just didn't want to have a housing market collapse mid-move.
20:35 signpost iirc asciilifeform is going from renting to own, so less risk of this.
20:35 asciilifeform aha
20:36 asciilifeform still not 100% price-lockin given extortionate tax. but the latter at least increases at fixed, by statute, rate, traditionally
20:36 signpost yep, as predictable as one can have here.
20:36 * asciilifeform not under the delusion that box 'can be sold for megaprofit'
20:36 signpost nah, you never get the equity back, just move it around.
20:37 asciilifeform some folx buy into 'flip, profit' and then sad when lolno
20:37 adlai out of curiosity, asciilifeform - off which grids does 'offgridism' imply in your lexicon?
20:38 signpost had some luck with the current place, bought in apr 2020 at the height of plague fear.
20:38 phf signpost: was that your first house?
20:38 signpost yep
20:38 * adlai has encountered folx over the years with varying answers to this; typically some variation of power, water, internet
20:38 asciilifeform adlai: well, gold standard is 'mars dome', lol. but can do mains current, at least, the photopanel+battery thing is ~inexpensive nao.
20:39 signpost prior owners had trouble offloading their previous place in CO, ended up saying "uncle" and letting this thing go for cheap.
20:39 asciilifeform 'offgrid internet' would require new things
20:39 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 16:28:19 asciilifeform: and pest's 'if you can decrypt it, it's for you' is pretty good fit for radioism.
20:39 asciilifeform not costs much to drill well, but not sure whether'd want to drink from it here
20:39 * signpost always dreams of a space station at L3. imagine the quiet.
20:39 phf what's the point of off the grid if you can't build a family crypt in the basement catacombs
20:39 adlai can't you get abysmally slow internet by using dialup over satellite phone?
20:40 asciilifeform phf: in some locales can (and not even necessarily via 'not caught -- not thief') crypt; not tried tho
20:40 * adlai has no idea what this would cost for any significant connection
20:40 asciilifeform adlai: price sat phone sometime
20:41 asciilifeform it aint 'off grid' either lol, sorta a contradiction in terms
20:41 asciilifeform really errything on planet3 is 'on grid', just question of which grid
20:42 asciilifeform ultimately in reich yer 'on grid' for so long as you've a postbox where tax bill etc
20:43 phf adlai: real of the grid people either run pots or p-t-p microwave relay. i n the first case you invest in a "couple of miles" of copper to closest line, in the later your put a tower
20:43 adlai right. 'off grid' for a net connection still involves significant infrastructure, a grid of its own, to enable the endpoint(s) to be free of any specific location.
20:43 signpost in other plague stories, latest post-covid symptom is a sort of electric zap in the chest.
20:43 signpost apparently possibly "intercostal neuralgia"
20:43 * asciilifeform not contracted this yet
20:44 phf lol are you counting your stigmatas?
20:44 asciilifeform must be easter egg in the latest covid release
20:44 signpost phf: when do I get a gaggle of devoted followers
20:44 phf signpost: once you get your blue checkmark
20:45 * adlai may have finally contracted one of these plagues... may have been regular flu. covid antigen test was negative, although maybe I was healthy by the time I tried it.
20:45 asciilifeform phf: pots or mw relay very much 'grid', yer plugged into a sumthing km or 2 away
20:45 asciilifeform 'off grid net' -- pirate shortwave.
20:45 signpost phf: I said devoted. carried around in a palanquin at a minimum.
20:45 asciilifeform lol
20:47 * asciilifeform re 'grid', has no delusions that cardboard box is 'mars dome', but if californifuckistani-style 'rolling brownouts' will have problems paying bills, so genset + photocells + batteries etc
20:49 adlai don't we have to wait a few hundred years after MP's death before officially starting the church?
20:50 * adlai must admit having done some rereading of scripture lately
20:52 adlai one of my neighbors has a cat that likes visiting my apartment. when it does not leave after a few minutes, I introduce it to human culture. so far, it appears tolerant of music, prose, and scripture, and only leaves voluntarily when alarmed by loud noises.
20:52 * signpost was raised fundie as it gets, but maps 100% of current events onto unremarkable human failings.
20:53 adlai the only notable consequence of my efforts is that I poked my head into James Joyce. I'm slightly surprised that I never read any of his work before, only various modern authors who were obviously influenced.
20:53 phf signpost: i don't think two are at odds, between homer, bible and shakespear you basically cover the whole range of unremarkable human failings.
20:54 verisimilitude I blame subversion.
20:54 signpost phf: I could as easily say "whatever god is, I'm not mad at it for this".
20:55 signpost and yep, bible's not a bad collection of these.
20:55 adlai signpost: have you ever encountered "The Brights" ?
20:55 signpost is this the idiot renaming of "atheist"?
20:56 adlai it's yet another attempt to "herd cats"
20:56 adlai there's some quote (maybe Dawkins?) about how organising atheists is like herding cats
20:57 signpost there's nothing there aside "nuh uh." meanwhile discarding the basis of civilization.
20:57 adlai for quite a while, I was a big fan of their definition, which was "having a worldview devoid of supernatural elements"
20:57 * signpost is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.
20:58 adlai Dennett is the one whom I've found most readable.
20:58 phf atheism is cringe
21:00 adlai at some point I might try defining what my views are, although it [atheism] is definitely the easiest label to pick when the issue ever arises.
21:01 verisimilitude Worshipping a false god is ``cringe'', phf.
21:02 verisimilitude There's that George Carlin joke about sun worshipper, at least they can fucking see the sun.
21:03 signpost Nietzsche's entire project was trying to reboot the cultural process of imagining the superlative man, and emulating him.
21:04 * signpost does not see how civilization can exist without this, in whichever form works.
21:05 adlai joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.
21:05 signpost heh, he talked at length about the will to technology too.
21:05 * signpost oughta start writing some Nietzsche sermons sometime.
21:06 adlai the two recent religious movements that have survived and blossomed seem to be mormonism and scientology; the former doesn't have much to do about new technologies, and the latter doesn't seem to rely on anything fundamentally technological, only to use technology for the ritual mystery
21:07 mats define recent
21:07 adlai all the various singularity / simulationism crap that verges upon spirituality is still quite solipsistic; some people might be fundamentalist about it, but it doesn't seem to be turning into a major religious movement
21:08 adlai well, on a time scale where individual human generations are still visible, although nowhere near to being the dominating scale
21:09 PeterL there are people who "believe in science" with a religious fervor
21:10 adlai conventional semitic religions only convene the congregations once a week; smartphones can lead to a much more vicious groupthink
21:11 adlai PeterL: in the scrollback, you were asking about common lisp vs scheme... did you get a satisfactory answer?
21:11 mats theres a lot of new religions that have been commercially successful, from 7th day adventists to shinreikyo to falun gong
21:11 phf signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.
21:12 PeterL adlai: do you have a better answer?
21:12 mats mormons are probably the richest group i can think of tho, unless you consider the religions in china that are de facto under the thumb of the govt in beijing
21:13 mats buddhism and all that shite collects an enormous sum of money from chumps every week
21:13 verisimilitude I don't have a religion, so much as a loosely-organized cult with an egregore attached.
21:13 verisimilitude Be I the only such person present?
21:14 adlai PeterL: not really; I used to believe that the channel had a strong CL bias. I recommend CL for practical projects, and only learning Scheme if you are learning purely for an intellectual diversion and do not plan on writing or editing much practical code .
21:14 adlai verisimilitude: define 'egregore' please?
21:15 mats the nation of islam's relationship with technology is pretty interesting
21:16 mats goofy eugenicism with black flavors, ufos and stuff, verisimilitude would love it
21:16 * adlai makes mental note to disambiguate between "nation of islam" and "islamic state"... these names almost decompile to the same point of wordspace
21:16 mats aum shinrikyo was famously tech oriented
21:17 PeterL mormonism does include teaching strong financial fundementals (like avoiding debt), we wish we were all as rich as the Romneys
21:19 PeterL adlai: I think that is a simmilar answer to what was said before, Scheme is prettier but CL is more pragmatically useful
21:21 verisimilitude This link seems decent, adlai:
21:21 adlai there is one fundamental difference that imo makes Scheme useless as a language for thinking about actual processes, and only useful for reasoning about computations
21:22 adlai in Scheme, symbols are simply variable names that get turned into pointers by the compiler, and they point to some value.
21:23 adlai this seems fine, although in CL, the most common violation of that is that a symbol can be dereferenced separately as a value and as a function, symbols often name types and classes, and there are other namespaces
21:26 adlai in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.
21:27 adlai that said, I've never used Scheme enough to have my unconscious mind talk to me in Scheme, so I do not have a fair comparison.
21:31 adlai verisimilitude: the link describes what seem to me a rather diverse range of phenomena. would you include, for example, the process generating an IRC log under this umbrella?
21:31 verisimilitude An egregore is similar to the concept of the hivemind.
21:32 verisimilitude A bunch of people all fervently believe in and want something, and work towards it, possibly with minimal interaction.
21:32 * adlai did not find explicitly stated requirements in the link that the collective process produce a unified single state of agreement
21:33 verisimilitude Well, it's one possible result, anyway.
21:33 adlai I guess it is the most common result
21:34 verisimilitude Through it, I feel the closest thing to a religious fervor I've ever felt.
21:34 adlai how's this definition: an egregore is the multiverse of myths in which archetypes interact with each other.
21:34 adlai this leaves open the question of whether all the myths are logically consistent with other parallel myths.
21:36 adlai perhaps I should finally read "The Golden Bough"; I actually own a dead-tree copy of this.
21:39 verisimilitude No.
21:40 adlai is the fervor you describe the kind of "something is wrong on the Internet" rage?
21:41 adlai otherwise, I'm still failing to understand what you mean by this
21:41 verisimilitude I don't want to elaborate too much.
21:42 verisimilitude People like something, extrapolate it, and it goes from there.
21:46 adlai etymology basically tells me that egregore means something that emerges from conversation.
21:47 phf << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D
21:47 dulapbot Logged on 2020-07-24 13:12:54 asciilifeform: for the l0gz, will preserve this lul : (some vermin, in response to verisimilitude's 'tried ada') : 'this is just larping though, I suspect most activities that you do can be glued together with a bunch of shell scripts, with roughly as much reliability requirements.'
21:48 phf nothing like one of your own priests to write good heresy
21:53 phf but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning
21:53 verisimilitude Do something useful and revive the discussion, phf. It has been dormant for nearly one month.
21:53 verisimilitude Controlling allocations is one component of reliable software, phf.
21:54 verisimilitude A system can be reliable without it, but UNIX isn't such a system.
21:55 verisimilitude For the particular program discussed then, an undo and redo system means unbounded allocations anyway, so it doesn't much matter, after a point.
21:56 PeterL I would argue that Ada is much easier to read and understand than c, so if I had to choose between the two I would pick Ada
21:59 verisimilitude Too many fools treat reliable programs as unobtainable, and even mock the idea.
22:04 * crtdaydreams is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet
~ 15 minutes ~
22:20 phf << cool, you could always write an upload interface, that does whatever it needs to do, but also puts the vpatches into a publically available folder, that i could just scrape on a nightly cycle
22:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 10:15:21 whaack: phf: hey welcome back, i was toying around with the idea of making a vpatch hopper, the idea would be your site , but with some irc interface so that anyone in WoT could update the site
22:28 phf << it works out of the box, non-static, maybe one or two changes. i've posted a patch to the old patches ml
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-11 11:24:06 asciilifeform: iirc there were attempts at 'unofficial' crapple port (phf?) but attempter broke teeth
22:32 phf but "btcbase upload" again, it's just such an unpleasantly messy problem, which requires either a full power of managed interface, or some kind of command language, maybe a db. lots of state, lots of "if exist then otherwise".
22:33 asciilifeform hm phf wainot a contraption similar to jurov's old one
22:33 asciilifeform upload form, eats a patch and a sig, hardwired pubkeys
22:34 asciilifeform (might want a sanity check where tries to press vpatch before interning tho)
22:34 phf jurov's thing was for just trb though?
22:35 asciilifeform indeed was. and only uploaded to ml, rather than a nifty graphical viewer
22:35 asciilifeform but patch upload per se aint so hard
22:36 asciilifeform << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage
22:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 16:56:25 signpost: is not impressed with any of the modern atheist talkers.
22:36 asciilifeform notice how sorta disappeared
22:36 phf asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun
22:37 asciilifeform phf: undeniably it's an unsexy proggy. hence wai no one baked yet.
22:38 * asciilifeform fwiw wrote a gpg verifier in '20; could in principle be turned into this
22:38 phf and it can verify plain text pgp signatures?
22:39 asciilifeform afaik in last rev. no longer shits self on corners either
22:39 asciilifeform indeed does
22:39 asciilifeform (is a bash condom on top of ffa)
22:40 asciilifeform as of 20c, verifies clearsigns
22:40 asciilifeform given payload , sig, & pubkey
22:40 phf requires two parts: patch over peh to make it into loadable module you can ffi to, from lisp, and then rewrite to lisp. i've been meaning to do the first part..
22:41 asciilifeform phf: theoretically oughta turn into a clean loadable, is statically linked etc
22:41 phf yeap
22:41 asciilifeform iirc someone ( adlai ? ) at one pt posted a pure cl gpg verifier
22:41 asciilifeform but can't seem to dig up in l0g
22:41 * adlai posted pure CL hash algos, does not recall doing gpg
22:42 asciilifeform 'litmus' only uses ffa for the mod.exp so really is 2-3ln of cl
22:42 phf another one of those "nice to have" projects is to do a key verify with ironclad, but man it's such a dull project
22:42 asciilifeform likely would be easier to bake a reasonable mod exp in cl than to ffiize ffa
22:43 asciilifeform could've sworn that this, exactly, was posted. but can't, grr, find
22:43 asciilifeform ffaism for pubkey verification in a gpg substitute is kinda overkill imho, no particular reason for it to be const-cycle
22:44 * asciilifeform posted it as moar of a practical demo than a necessary util
22:45 phf i've written at some point a gossip client, in CWEB, that was literally slinging gpg packets, and the sanity check was parsing the incoming gpg data to make sure it's valid before handing it off to gnupg. it was very hairy, php circa 2017 code :>
22:45 phf *phf, though php also fits
22:45 asciilifeform i recall at least 1 other posted proggy in #t that fit this description ( some german fella )
22:45 phf i think maybe it was to spec of the old mp spec?
22:46 asciilifeform iirc was a python skin on gpg a la asciilifeform's vtron
22:47 * asciilifeform to this day sitting on 3 finished (programwise) but unfinished in re text ffa ch's. notenuff cycles..
22:47 asciilifeform the last mathematical piece, in particular: extended gcd
22:48 * asciilifeform has what afaik is the only constanttime algo for it that doesn't impose nonsensical constraints on inputs
22:48 phf asciilifeform: you need a very irreverent man to periodically call you names for you to release things on a schedule :p
22:48 asciilifeform lolheh
22:50 * asciilifeform sorta had 'wind taken from sails' in re ffa when realized that there's ~no chance of usefully realtime packet munging w/ it on any x86 irons
22:51 * asciilifeform still intends to post the remainder , gpg does 'must die'
22:52 asciilifeform is funny , afaik ffa's const.time barrett is to this day the only 1 published. but no one to date wrote in 'hey, that was useful on my micro..' or the like
22:52 asciilifeform nobody detectably was missing one
22:53 asciilifeform << these are inherently unstable constructions; asciilifeform suspects that ones which emphasize working tech to any interesting degree simply dun live longenuff to be visible through telescope at all
22:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 17:04:26 adlai: joking aside, I wonder whether -- and when -- some new grand cult will arise, that has a stronger technological focus.
22:53 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-17 14:19:24 asciilifeform: thinkin' about it in depth -- the weakness of cults aint that they're not an effective form of organization, from pov of command vertical. rather effective. the weakness is that even nominally clever fuhrer is stuck ordering disciples to do stupid shit, to 'show devotion'. whether it's self-flagellation, 'mortification of flesh', or using mysql, php, etc. the pathology is ultimately same.
22:55 signpost << yep, entirely aside whether "true". not that I'm implying I hold the cynical view.
22:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 17:11:00 phf: signpost: i've maybe come to the same conclusion as you, that you can't have the civilization without the transcendental.
22:55 signpost that certain folks holding certain books survived where others fell is true in its own sense, anyway.
22:57 signpost << both symptomatic of the cultural process of meaning having broken, first one yielding to next, yes.
22:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:45 asciilifeform: << i recall these, afaik they existed purely as a reactive ripple from '90s uptick of evangelism wankage
22:57 signpost << forgot, will get to it later today or tomorrow.
22:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 18:03:27 crtdaydreams: is unsure if signpost has seen my request for WoT keychange yet
22:58 signpost << kek
22:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 17:46:43 phf: << you'd find it /highly/ amusing but i wrote that :D
22:58 asciilifeform << lol, nuffin keeps you from having shadowed symbols in scheme. if anyffing is much easier in a lisp1 than a lisp2
22:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 17:25:37 adlai: in the real world, or at least, in the literature that humans write about the real world, individual units of meaning (whether written words, spoken sounds, or even gestures and icons) have different meanings in different contexts. so I find that CL corresponds much more closely to thought processes, than Scheme.
22:59 signpost << mp's preoccupation with PHP is the same as with his "lick the toilet, bitch".
22:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 18:35:57 phf: asciilifeform: i guess the fuck you we'll rewrite it in php approach of tmsr soured me on doing any kind of work that's not either paid or extremely fun :D writing web forms that spawn subprocesses and checks files and just generally /behaves/ rather than shitsall over itself on corner cases is the opposite of fun
22:59 asciilifeform imho very similar (see earlier logptr)
23:00 asciilifeform 'jump through this burning ring nao'
23:00 signpost call one man the root of meaning and he just makes everything mean suck his dick.
23:00 * signpost learned this, if anything, from the episode.
23:01 asciilifeform funnily enuff process doesn't even require a narcissist; by some accts e.g. stalin wasn't, but ended up surrounded by militant cocksuckers anyway
23:02 signpost yep, bad algo no matter who's in the chair.
23:03 asciilifeform << worse than this , programming a computer doesn't even always make you have programmed a computer (i.e. automated a work), often enuff all you've done is to have baked yet anuther pseudo-mechanism that req's babysitting
23:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 17:52:13 phf: but i also stand by my words. it is larping, of the kind that you yourself often ranted against. using ada doesn't make you an avionics engineer, nor does it sprinkle your code with some magic of serious meaning
23:05 * asciilifeform fwiw has seen some commercial adaism, and all of it had an overwhelming diana flavour. what in cl world was once called 'writing fortran in lisp'
23:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-27 10:53:27 asciilifeform: such folx have precisely 1 approach to solving technical problems; and this approach is amply illustrated on diana's www
23:07 asciilifeform you dun win anyffin from writing proggy nominally 'in ada' but w/ all the pointeristic barf prohibitions switched off, or if you litter it w/ oopism & other knobs in the standard which req the massive runtime.
23:08 asciilifeform phf's darker implication might be 'even if you write a correct and readable proggy, yer still 'larp' given that no one needs a program at all. go write a tractor instead' tho
23:08 phf ^
23:08 phf i was just typing as much
23:09 verisimilitude That's very insightful. I guess I'll go kill myself now.
23:09 * asciilifeform puts on wagner
23:09 phf lol
23:09 asciilifeform on rare occasion one can write a proggy that actually tractors in some interesting & novel way , however
23:09 asciilifeform e.g. thimbronion's pestron imho
23:10 asciilifeform or orig btc
23:10 phf asciilifeform: doesn't need to be this dark, /someone/ needs a program, but most programming is a compulsive behavior anyway. the trick is to channel it into useful direcmztion
23:10 asciilifeform pgp. etc
23:10 phf *direction
23:10 verisimilitude The word ``tractor'' isn't a verb.
23:10 signpost that's the trick with every damned thing with humans.
23:10 asciilifeform 'programming is almost always a psychiatric disease'(tm)(r)(asciilifeform)
23:11 phf this is not some profound philosophical point god damn it. i'm saying that if you're just playing with concepts, who cares if its ada, or you wrote it in pascal on a piece of paper. or in php. but making it seem like you're writing avionics when you're writing a toy is masturbation
23:12 asciilifeform is writing an avionics masturbatory if you've no plane ?
23:12 asciilifeform ( iirc someone in #t actually admitted to doing precisely this )
23:12 phf after 5 years of tmsr, resounding yes :D
23:12 verisimilitude I already have a project named ``masturbation''.
23:12 asciilifeform then suppose you've bought the plane.
23:13 phf asciilifeform: then it's post factum rationalization of clinical behavior
23:13 * asciilifeform doesn't regret 'wasting' the cycles to derive a closed form rsa. even if never 'buys the plane'
23:14 verisimilitude I can either spend my spare thought on programming and language topics, or become a serial killer or something.
23:15 phf asciilifeform: nor i my own projects. i'm not even trying to be so categorical. but you know how americans skii right? they go online and research the best skiis first! and then best shoes! and then only the most professional of shoes work! and then best pants! and then on reddit have fights over the best pants, etc.
23:15 asciilifeform for instance, if not had done this, would then have tried 'pest w/ rsa' and ended up either rationalizing away the aspect where enemy can trivially derive yer privkey from processing delays, or (as would hope) trying then to convince folx not to use it
23:15 asciilifeform phf: 'ricers' aha
23:15 phf there's a new zoomer term for it, funkopop collectors
23:16 asciilifeform erry gen will prolly have own name for the sin
23:16 phf at least ricers have real cars that they sometimes drive
23:16 * asciilifeform once made mistake of asking a serious vintage car fella 'when and where do you drive these'
23:17 asciilifeform 'in arizona, in '10, took it on a flatbed...' then bows head
23:17 * signpost drove an 87 300zx til the thing disintegrated.
23:18 signpost the behavior being described comes as kind of fear.
23:18 signpost ever-preparing, adorning oneself with the amulets needed for the journey that ain't ever happening.
23:18 asciilifeform can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.
23:19 signpost nah, not same thing at all. this is like actually working on the car, driving it 135mph, finding out it starts wanting to lift nose-up after that.
23:19 asciilifeform i.e. asciilifeform will stand with fewer regrets in front of firing squad after having done former vs latter. i.e. 'religion'
23:19 * signpost wants to add more to the larping thread, but will have to do so later.
23:19 asciilifeform no hurry
23:23 phf
23:23 asciilifeform neato!
23:24 phf every time i log in into wintermute it's like the scene from robin hood where he comes back from the crusades. "master robin, is that you??"
23:25 asciilifeform lol
23:25 asciilifeform phf: re 'do what actually pays, instead of larp' -- in '20 asciilifeform went heavily into commercial mode, nao digging in 2 salt mines simult. but not has so much to show for this, not any closer to 'rich' unsurprisingly
23:26 asciilifeform no one 'gets rich' on wage work, newz at 11
23:27 asciilifeform 'less poor' is best that can be done with it.
23:28 * asciilifeform funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.
23:28 asciilifeform so border b/w 'larp' and commercials is not so clear.
23:29 asciilifeform not, of course, to imply that anyone is using asciilifeform's pubs commercially, afaik. satan forbid.
23:29 mats I hear that ffa things are the new hotness
23:29 asciilifeform lol
23:29 * asciilifeform recalls zx's thrd
23:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-28 13:37:30 zx2c4: asciilifeform: at the beginning much more than now. in the early days, vpn companies thought it was a good marketing thing to do. now that's mostly passed and things are a lot tougher. your blurb seems to have some truth in it in my experience
23:30 verisimilitude I don't understand the joke.
23:30 mats this was like three or four years ago
23:30 phf asciilifeform: i think rich and poor was never the problem. the aim was really to create a closed economic system. the amish have it, the hassidim have it, the various "families" have it, etc.
23:30 asciilifeform phf: prolly not compat. w/ 'rootless cosmopolitan' folx, sadly
23:31 verisimilitude Furries do it, to an extent.
23:31 * asciilifeform recalls endless orlov's pieces re subj. even has dead tree compendium of'em somewhere
23:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: furries have own farms, banks, etc. ??
23:31 verisimilitude Well, not banks, and they don't use farms for the same things.
23:32 asciilifeform lol, they live on sunlight?
23:32 verisimilitude Does asciilifeform know what a furry is?
23:32 asciilifeform ithinkso
23:32 asciilifeform folx who dress in animal skins , 'fuck like tiger!' etc neh
23:33 verisimilitude Yes.
23:33 verisimilitude By ``they don't use farms for the same things'', I was implying they mostly want to fuck the animals.
23:33 asciilifeform aware that they exist, but afaik the only 'own economy' they've got is dedicated porn wwws
23:33 mats Conventions must be terrible for people with allergies
23:33 asciilifeform lol
23:33 asciilifeform afaik they usually wear synthetic furs
23:33 mats Still can't believe how many Americans have carpets in their homes on every surface
23:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik most 'furry' aint proper zoophiles tho
23:34 mats Absolutely filthy beast people
23:34 * asciilifeform could be mistaken
23:34 asciilifeform mats: asciilifeform had to search far & wide when switching pads to find w/out the carpet nonsense
23:34 mats Synthetic or not, collects enormous quantities of crap
23:34 verisimilitude Anyway, yes, they've ``dedicated porn wwws'', which is like a closed economy, as much of one as I'm aware any rootless cosmopolitans have.
23:35 asciilifeform verisimilitude: this aint what phf was discussing tho. was re folx w/ ~actual~ closed loops, amish, raskolniks, etc
23:35 asciilifeform i.e. who can eat w/out ever (or, at least, often) meeting a heathen
23:35 phf asciilifeform: well, that's my "end of tmsr" take, really when the needs of the republic started conflicting with the needs of the individuals, without republic giving any promise of satisfying those needs... etc. etc. bb living in butt fuck nowhere off mp's pitance, while mp posting pictures of lavish dinners.
23:35 mats Add in pets, more than two occupants (some with long headhairs and body hair), regular wildfires, usual urban pollution
23:36 asciilifeform phf: aha. will sign under this.
23:36 asciilifeform ( as did naggum )
23:36 phf asciilifeform: but never the less the problem stands. you either write code for the reich (day job), or you write code because that's how you jerk off. from that perspective ada or php make no difference
23:37 verisimilitude I find that foolish thinking.
23:37 asciilifeform phf: even from most spartan commercial pov, there's the nuance that clients actually aint entirely indifferent to how you jerk off
23:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 19:27:28 asciilifeform: funnily enuff landed most recent coupla gigs as result of folx reading his www. and most recently ffa series.
23:38 asciilifeform ( tho aint why did it )
23:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-31 19:17:43 asciilifeform: can make a defensible arg that e.g. deriving a closed form rsa is exactly same thing as spending 3y on reddit or in front of tv. in asciilifeform's value system however not. this, may suppose, makes him 'religious' if you like.
23:39 asciilifeform in fact, funnily enuff, erry asciilifeform contract successively has been w/ sumbody who had read moar of asciilifeform's www than prev.
23:39 asciilifeform where this series converges -- nfi
23:40 phf asciilifeform: well, yeah, but then your blog is basically like those indian EEs with mit degrees that post their side projects, so they look better when joining microsoft
23:41 asciilifeform phf: somehow 0 indians at that particular shop. w/ snore blogs or otherwise
23:41 asciilifeform if in pov phf asciilifeform's materials not actually distinguishable from ee indian's, aint aboutta try to argue
23:42 phf asciilifeform: oh pish posh, no need to be so sensitive, i value your skill highly. i'm giving an analogy to make a point!
23:42 phf and i'm not planning on defending this position too strongly, i like to write programs also, and i benefit from being obsessive about it, and i also wouldn't enjoy if somebody were tell me "why you even do this!"
23:43 asciilifeform i thought thrd was re 'is it actually useful to write programs' which is a 100% legit q
23:43 asciilifeform there's an entirely defensible arg that it almost never is
23:44 asciilifeform simply, noting that asciilifeform in fact running good % of budget on accidental exhaust gas of writing.
23:45 asciilifeform and even that not always doing so puts you in company of indians (proverbial or otherwise), sometimes entire battalion of folx who actually did sumthing at least vaguely interesting on own will.
23:46 asciilifeform ( in this particular , 'interesting' in industry that asciilifeform not finds very interesting, but this aint the industry's fault )
23:47 verisimilitude It sickens me, when the people around me look at my work from a purely economic perspective, phf. Such thinking taints the blood, and such blood taints the brain.
23:47 asciilifeform phf: imho 'why you even do this' is a 100% solid q . and if no one asks it, and for long enuff time, folx end up napoleoning in asylum
23:48 verisimilitude There are deities I'd rather worship than Moloch.
23:48 asciilifeform verisimilitude: tbf we still dun know ( verisimilitude holds cards close to chest ) how verisimilitude dodges moloch draft so well
23:48 verisimilitude My programs exist solely for me, and everyone else is merely given access to them.
23:49 verisimilitude That's fair.
23:49 asciilifeform asciilifeform -- programs (well, moar often fixes) for dough.
23:49 asciilifeform iirc most of the folx here do, or once did.
23:49 mats my bet is an inheritance
23:50 asciilifeform mats: fwiw asciilifeform's guess was terrydavis pension, lol. but we won't know unless fella spills
23:50 phf asciilifeform: at some point everything we did in tmsr was a kind of force multiplier: logger quotes things, paste server talks to authentication server, there's a coin machine, there's lightweight processes for doing things
23:50 asciilifeform ftr asciilifeform aint got either. so, works for dough.
23:51 phf i still marvel, when i have to talk to various ugh groups, at how backwards and primitive they are. despite shiny iphone tech or whatever.
23:51 asciilifeform aaha, is interesting how ~nobody even has a reliably logged chat
23:51 asciilifeform (unless sits on some aol-like commercial horror)
23:51 mats discord has eaten a lot of communities
23:52 phf every tried searching through telegram? why is such a point. i literally export things from telega and import to btcbase local copy to search stuff
23:52 phf *ever
23:52 mats i also export from discord so its actually searchable
23:52 mats so dumb
23:52 asciilifeform phf: commercial chats are a hilarious dysfunction zoo aha
23:53 phf asciilifeform: so that's to some extent useful code, which was also written to high standard. there was a sweet spot before we went all avionics engineers when it was a combo of quality code, produced fast to solve problems
23:54 asciilifeform phf: imho general tendency of field tho is opposite, 'fuck, write it in 1d, will throw away anyway' resulting in ~0 usefully reusable anyffin
23:54 asciilifeform rather than 'avionics'
23:55 asciilifeform if even 1 in 10 folx erred in direction of 'avionics w/out plane' there'd be over9000x less breakage & ex-programmers looking to buy amish farms
23:55 verisimilitude s/less/fewer/
23:55 asciilifeform supposing actual honest effort, rather than 'avionics flavour spray', that is
23:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: less breakage, fewer ex--..
23:56 verisimilitude Yes.
23:56 phf asciilifeform: hmm, we've diverged on priors at this point :D
23:56 asciilifeform not sure where
23:57 asciilifeform per asciilifeform , software is a 'failed field' largely because ~nobody bothers to actually do a thorough job of ~anything at all. (and not only from lack of commercial incentive). but this aint a seekrit.
23:58 phf asciilifeform: i think software is a failed field because it lacks meaningful application, which runs downstream from failed society
23:59 verisimilitude Software is used well to stunt the citizenry.
23:59 asciilifeform why then fails (a la boeing) even where application is entirely clear ?
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