Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2021-07-10 | 2021-07-12 →
00:05 punkman shinohai, read about that earlier, but I haven't managed to see this allegedly signed message
00:10 shinohai I found one on my blog:
00:10 shinohai There was a whole list of 'em somewhere.
00:12 whaack asciilifeform: Do you have a link handy listing what changes need to be made to your python log bot so it can connect to dulap?
00:25 punkman "Wright also choked up on the stand and told the court he invented Bitcoin for the millions of unbanked global citizens but not for criminal activity. Wright insisted that things like the Silk Road, Hydra, and trading illicit goods made him “ashamed” of his invention."
00:29 punkman I wonder if anyone that knew Kleiman has shared any interesting tidbits
00:31 punkman "JVP: Dave Kleiman was an exceptional man. If you want to know more about Dave, you should talk to the SANSfolks. One of the top SANS people is also having a conference in Las Vegas in September, where the Trustee of the Tulip Trust is expected to appear."
00:33 punkman ^ from weird interview:
00:39 punkman when you can't just let go
00:40 punkman " his plan is backed by a very rich hedge fund willing to cover the cost of the search and the equipment involved in exchange for the lion’s share of his fortune."
00:40 punkman "Despite having a plan, Howells said that the Newport City Council would not let him search the landfill, even after he offered them £55 million"
~ 30 minutes ~
01:11 whaack asciilifeform: I tried issuing the command' send("PASS %s\r\n" % SPass)' where SPASS is the FG baud rate set in the conf file, no luck
01:11 whaack i put that line before the nick/user authentication as well
~ 23 minutes ~
01:35 asciilifeform << >>
01:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 20:12:41 whaack: asciilifeform: Do you have a link handy listing what changes need to be made to your python log bot so it can connect to dulap?
01:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-16 13:46:57 asciilifeform: << i had to commit this kludge warcrime to get the bot to talk to 'unreal irc'.
01:38 asciilifeform << when asciilifeform was a boy and read about alchemists of 14th-18th c., was astonished that anyone would have claimed to possess 'philosopher's stone' while knowing how such 'possessors' typically ended up (in chains, in oubliette, 'until the fucker gives the seekrit') ; but seems like some of these could not resist to
01:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 19:52:03 shinohai: The derp has claimed to own several addresses he doesn't, remember these lulz?
01:38 asciilifeform 'craigwright', to borrow against 'future gold', to pump up 'pr'.
01:41 punkman Kleiman sucking Wright's cock
01:41 asciilifeform << this almost too funny to believe happened
01:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 19:31:26 punkman:
01:42 asciilifeform (rather 'xerxes whipping the sea')
01:45 asciilifeform << plz read carefully the linked patch. ( sadly it is intimately specific kludge to 'unreal' and the chance of it working elsewhere is ~0)
01:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 21:11:16 whaack: asciilifeform: I tried issuing the command' send("PASS %s\r\n" % SPass)' where SPASS is the FG baud rate set in the conf file, no luck
01:46 punkman seems like Kleiman and Wright were both obsessed with certifications
01:47 asciilifeform << i suspect more banal reason for the refusal (perhaps e.g. > £55m worth of cu hypothetically in there)
01:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 20:40:58 punkman: "Despite having a plan, Howells said that the Newport City Council would not let him search the landfill, even after he offered them £55 million"
01:48 asciilifeform punkman: who's kleiman again ?
01:48 punkman guy who might have been Satoshi
01:48 * asciilifeform lost count of these 'might've beens'
01:49 punkman although I suspect he might just be early miner
01:49 punkman he was a winblows expert
01:49 asciilifeform asciilifeform's favourite shitoshi is still szabo
01:50 punkman Wright: " This post goes to those cowards who sit behind anonymity on the web and cast doubt and aspersions about people whilst
01:50 punkman hiding. I note that most defamatory comments are anonymous. Cowards!" and "Or is the "bitch" that I am a member of the Uniting Church (and a trustee of the church) and also have qualifications
01:50 punkman in religion? Does being a casual pastor and planned deacon make it such that my IT degrees means less?"
01:51 punkman what's a casual pastor
01:51 asciilifeform punkman: asciilifeform: is old enuff to remember the scientology lawsuits against
01:51 signpost punkman: sounds like a question for dpb
01:51 asciilifeform wb signpost
01:52 signpost I assume it has something to do with smoking blunts between casual mentions of the end times
01:52 signpost evening asciilifeform
01:53 * signpost just returned from a tour through rural new england, had a great time.
01:55 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform sweated out a lengthy (i suspect actual program may end up shorter..!) hypertext spec for (draft name) 'pestis', the p2p p2p 'final solution' to irc. still needs massage tho.
01:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 17:45:07 asciilifeform: while writing ('1 step forward, 2 steps back', i add 10kB and then 'too long.. cut!') realized : the 'spanning tree protocol' was the 'great invention' that in fact fucked the original p2p-icity of arpanet! and continues to fuck today!
01:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-09 18:06:24 asciilifeform: algo is almost insultingly simple imho
01:55 asciilifeform grr fucked that link didn't i
01:55 asciilifeform anyways
01:56 signpost ah, very cool!
01:57 * signpost still needs to eat much log, will catch up fully tomorrow
01:57 * asciilifeform hasn't put much re: subj in the log, saved it for the 'rfc'
01:58 signpost in either case looking forward to the read
01:59 * asciilifeform loox fwd to publishing & reading comments
02:00 asciilifeform this is a rather odd document, spec just about detailed enuff to 'be the proggy', and with rationales for all moving parts
02:00 * asciilifeform does not habitually write such things, hence slow
~ 15 hours 13 minutes ~
17:13 signpost << notably all clients are already logging messages to disk; client might get away with using e.g. last-n-messages as seen-cache.
17:13 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 14:59:23 asciilifeform: ... even if you want to keep and dedupe against last mil+ of messages.
17:14 signpost of course, the solution among friends when being drowned by old dupes is 1) hey bud, fix your node and 2) fuck you, I'm unpeering.
17:16 signpost << when one's symmetric secrets are burned by some unfortunated event, can just sign messages to your friends informing of new symmetric keys to use.
17:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 15:10:55 verisimilitude: A symmetric scheme, with the secrets not generally being valuable, would work for me. Once I generate a truly trustworthy PGP key, I'm damn certain not letting it touch the Internet.
17:20 signpost << agreed, approximation is fine here. anything which purports to require strict ordering of messages can instead be solved by a sworn (signed) statement
17:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 16:14:39 asciilifeform: tldr: messages will almost always arrive in apparently-correct order. but when they do not -- live with it. it imho is a very small price to pay for massive reduction in movingparts count.
17:20 signpost nature also gives no fixed universal ordering of messages
17:21 signpost << lately, quite active.
17:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 18:53:58 verisimilitude: This channel is hardly active enough for this to even be an issue.
17:24 signpost << aha, see how the complexity starts stacking up when one attempts to "solve"?
17:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 19:41:37 asciilifeform: punkman: that there has the obvious problem of potentially infinite wait
17:24 signpost now TTL, now etc
17:25 signpost (one might indeed solve ordering, and loss, and so on, at a level of abstraction above this, but imho base layer has to be as simple as possible)
17:28 signpost << careful in so restricting that you do not remove the possibility of sane human relationship. modern totalitarianism grows out of this same desire to remove all possibility of The Bad via "protocol".
17:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 20:07:46 verisimilitude: A better protocol restricts what each client can do.
17:29 signpost this isn't to say that the desire is incorrect, just that it can be taken to extreme.
17:38 asciilifeform << in asciilifeform's current draft, there's 64bit epoch in the hmac-signed packet, and stations are expected to be within +/-15min of one another (quite achievable w/out ntpisms imho.) antidupe cache keeps last hour of received material, or 1MB, whichever is greater. if |t-current| >15m on incoming packet -- rejected.
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 13:13:58 signpost: << notably all clients are already logging messages to disk; client might get away with using e.g. last-n-messages as seen-cache.
17:40 asciilifeform ( on top of this , 1byte 'bounce count' incremented by a (properly working) station when txing; and station receiver if exceeds $constant . )
17:40 asciilifeform this is moar than sufficient to avoid 'storm'.
17:41 * asciilifeform was reading b00k by the perpetrator of 'spanning tree protocol' re arpa history and storms where ~all~ of arpa had to be reset manually etc. lulzy.
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 17:45:07 asciilifeform: while writing ('1 step forward, 2 steps back', i add 10kB and then 'too long.. cut!') realized : the 'spanning tree protocol' was the 'great invention' that in fact fucked the original p2p-icity of arpanet! and continues to fuck today!
17:42 asciilifeform * station receiver drops if exceeds
17:42 asciilifeform grr
17:42 signpost yep that makes sense.
17:43 signpost << in retrospect this chinese miner conspiracy fits right into "coke paranoia"
17:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-04 22:36:22 asciilifeform: punkman: start of 'day x' thread for thread-completeness.
17:43 * signpost has also seen alcoholics succumb to paranoia
17:43 asciilifeform signpost: the tricky bit in protocol so far (on asciilifeform's chalkboard) is how to prevent station from relaying to irc console a packet as 'hearsay' that you 0,1sec later get the ~original~ version of, from vagaries of the net
17:44 asciilifeform seems to necessitate a 'sliding window' for these.
17:44 * asciilifeform continues to think..
17:44 asciilifeform ('originator' version -- directly/authenticably from the peer who keyed it in)
17:44 signpost the hearsay item differs how?
17:45 asciilifeform signpost: it differs strictly in that handle(peer from whom received, by way of hmac ver.) != handle in packet
17:46 * asciilifeform writing very pedantic definition list for these..
17:46 asciilifeform 'If the Handle in an incoming packet is equal to the Handle given in the station's WOT for the peer who had signed this packet,
17:46 asciilifeform the message M carried in such a packet is termed "immediate".'
17:46 signpost curious whether these cases can be made equivalent, but will want to eat the proper doc
17:47 asciilifeform 'If the Handle of an incoming packet does not equal the Handle given in the receiving station's WOT for the peer from whom it
17:47 asciilifeform had come -- the message M in such a packet is termed "hearsay".'
17:47 asciilifeform ^ pasta from current draft.
17:47 signpost suppose we're not onioning here, so it's not clear how one would make equivalent
17:47 asciilifeform signpost: they're handled exactly the same
17:47 asciilifeform except for irc front end, if 'hearsay' then handle in parens.
17:48 asciilifeform (indicating that the message did not come directly from your peer who uses this handle)
17:48 signpost yeah, what I'd want to do is alter the client to collect these as one logical line
17:48 signpost x message came with 5 echos and no original
17:48 asciilifeform signpost: the string $handle+$message is, here, definitionally identical
17:48 signpost y message came from horses mouth and 3 echos
17:48 signpost yup
17:48 asciilifeform so in any event handled as 1 line
17:48 asciilifeform dupes simply thrown.
17:49 asciilifeform what i was speaking of upstack, is the oddball case where N 'hearsay' copies of item come ~before~ the original.
17:49 asciilifeform asciilifeform's current proposed answer to this is to buffer all hearsays for e.g. 1sec.
17:50 signpost yeah, my thought is that this is an edge-case that eventually stops mattering when somebody writes a client with this protocol in mind
17:50 signpost I don't so much care, and at any rate it'd be interesting to see how often it happens
17:50 asciilifeform ( while immediates go straight to console and dedupe cache )
17:50 asciilifeform signpost: i dun expect it'll matter, aha.
17:52 asciilifeform signpost: since model is 'flood routing', algo does not treat 9000 echos differently from 3
17:54 asciilifeform further pasta: 'Packets propagate from peer to peer; a set of stations such that each member of it will eventually receive a packet broadcast by any other member is referred to as a "net."'
17:56 asciilifeform the only 'special', if you will, type of packet, is where it is marked (in the current variant : packet.handle == sendingpeer.handle) as 'original' i.e. a direct peer of yours indicates that he had produced it.
17:58 asciilifeform there's a 'command' field, if it's 0 then packet is rebroadcast 'shotgun', if 1 -- it's a 'direct' msg (i.e. sender politely asked you not to broadcast, tho obv. can't stop you), that's it for 'types'.
18:08 signpost << imho the pressure this creates is constructive. one can block at client level, but really oughta curate friends that don't have friends that piss on your couch.
18:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-05 10:45:13 asciilifeform: << indeed, if you want to go beyond killfiling, and not see ~any~ conv. the fella was part of, would have to no longer be part of a net where others peer with him. this is, yes, a different experience than traditional 'palace' irc. i'm willing to live with it.
18:08 asciilifeform signpost: i advocate a 'measure 7 times, cut 1nce' approach, aha, to peering.
18:09 asciilifeform the 'promiscuous' mp-style 'let's erryone welcome the whore' approach of #t is not a good fit for p2pism. (it can be used by ~individual~ station, of course.)
18:12 signpost I was just reaching where the PoW was lopped off the design, and I agree. randos are the responsibility of a particular station; I don't see much reason to bake everymen into the protocol, and wager it would come with unforseen cost, as always does.
18:12 signpost can do the PoW thing too, just as an entirely separate item
18:13 asciilifeform the pow thing imho does not belong anywhere near the fundamental wot-based item.
18:13 asciilifeform folx who want to build guest toilets can gate'em any way they like, incl. pow, of course.
18:22 signpost << that one dies leaves only picking which passtimes suit best.
18:22 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-05 21:54:06 asciilifeform: is not infrequently asked -- most recently by own brother -- 'why do you bother to maintain trb, run nodes? you don't win, only the fat pigs win' and never had a properly rational answer.
18:23 * signpost built a trb on pentacle not too long ago, is the one currently chugging through 689k
18:23 asciilifeform oh neato
18:25 signpost << bwahaha, I've been referring to the masks as "face panties". looks like kakobrekla also.
18:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-06 06:13:44 punkman: guess he has twatter
18:26 * asciilifeform normally refs as 'muzzles'
18:27 signpost also this, and clearly at this point folks just like 'em, will wear indefinitely
18:27 asciilifeform 'send me the muzzle, the one that you gnaw on...'(tm)(r)('everything2')
18:28 asciilifeform as i understand, in asia already fashionable for decades.
18:29 asciilifeform (rather like e.g. hats in europistan, went in, went out, now back like-so..)
18:30 signpost I suspect certain poorly-socialized folks are terrified of faces.
18:37 signpost << signpost was startup poorfag through much of this period, ate most of his BTC much later.
18:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-06 16:42:25 asciilifeform: '09-most of '11
18:37 signpost still feels cheap
18:40 asciilifeform signpost: elaborate re 'feels cheap' ?
18:44 * signpost bought in 100s, 1000s, 10000s, after blow-off tops
18:46 signpost given the longterm value of a USD approaches zero, kinda hard to say when BTC is too expensive.
18:46 * signpost would buy houses, but not now, and would buy stocks, but not now, etc
18:46 * asciilifeform must confess that it does not to him 'feel cheap'. consider, could run isp for 20yrs and still not make back the 5btc asciilifeform lost on the 'alphago bet' on bbet
18:47 asciilifeform pretty much nuffin one can do today will make serious diff in the size of yer 'hodl' (unless either yer 'hodl' is miniature, or yer fiatola budget is princely)
18:49 signpost << been rollin this off gradually into better things than USD
18:49 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-17 13:56:02 trinque: was just in a business I don't want to spend the rest of my life in, and an exit presented itself
18:49 asciilifeform << this aint quite same thing as 'buying power of btc climbs]
18:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 14:46:25 signpost: given the longterm value of a USD approaches zero, kinda hard to say when BTC is too expensive.
18:49 dulapbot (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
18:49 signpost wouldn't say it was princely, more like "retire early if I don't fuck up handling it"
18:51 whaack asciilifeform: The relatively small gains from buying now helps you hodl your hodl
18:51 asciilifeform signpost: if this makes sense -- adjusted for 'buying power of usd' , btc today is still more or less at ~10k
18:51 asciilifeform whaack: how so ?
18:52 signpost asciilifeform: even if that's the case, stop-loss by moving out of USD is rational
18:52 whaack it's still appears to be a statistically +EV move so buying now actually helps you not dig into your original stash
18:52 signpost but I think there's more money to come into BTC, the mountains mats referred to
18:52 whaack it still*
18:54 signpost asciilifeform: I put even odds on the central bank causing deflation (crash of asset prices) as inflation. can crash the car in many ways.
18:54 signpost if that occurs, will buy a shitload of land, most likely.
18:54 whaack asciilifeform: I made a point to someone here that btc may be a more stable measure of value for property in these parts of CR
18:55 asciilifeform signpost: 'in meltdown, all the uncorrelated vars become correlated'(tm), rather how errything on a plane breaks down simult. when it hits a mountain
18:55 signpost << wasn't clear to me that you were doing other than trolling after that, but I never knew ya that well. I also barfed in time.
18:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 10:58:04 kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me
18:55 signpost asciilifeform: lol aha
18:56 signpost I also don't care if I end up poor again, am simple.
18:57 whaack asciilifeform: I'm going to include your 'kludge warcrime' patch and put my trb bot in here if you don't mind...there may be some join/part spam while i work out some kinks.
18:57 signpost upstack, I hung on because the tech contemplated in tmsr, and the culture req'd to sustain it, I saw nowhere else. still don't.
18:57 * asciilifeform never boughts lands, always seemed like very risky move -- not only there is no limit to what the reich decides to tax from it, but in usa 'over 9000' ways to dislodge you from it or otherwise make unusable ('wetlands!!!') w/out compensation
18:58 asciilifeform whaack: don't hesitate to plug in bot
18:58 signpost yeah, there's zero-risk-yield nowhere
18:58 asciilifeform signpost: the other thing about land, it 'ties you to the soil', bad enuff that i've elderly relatives, leased racks, etc. in $shithole
18:59 * asciilifeform would like to be ~less~ tied, rather than moar..
19:00 signpost folks who can point me to a forest approximating Maine with a friendlier regime are invited to write in.
19:01 * signpost doesn't expect to escape the reich; haven't found an agreeable alternative
19:03 * asciilifeform admits, far moar interested in escaping 'arbeit macht frei' than reich per se.
19:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:36:06 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: thing is, i'm only interested in escape if also comes with escape from working.
19:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 20:59:41 asciilifeform: working for coupla days nao on a draft of the p2p algo. but nowhere near done yet, it is getting tiny scraps of time left over from gruntwork
19:07 asciilifeform tangentially, imho absolute best thing that could happen to btc from 'actual commerce' pov -- is that it were to fall to e.g. 100$ and stay there for next decade.
19:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:49:13 asciilifeform: imho thing to do is to develop ~actual commerce~ in btc.
19:08 signpost << meter also evil? gram?
19:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 16:01:15 verisimilitude: Money itself is evil.
19:08 asciilifeform because, as things now, there is absolutely ~nothing~ productive you can do that will get rewarded 1/1000th as much as 'having loaded up on hodl in 2011'
19:09 signpost USD can die for a long time, but not forever. seems unavoidable that "while system is dying, best move is to hoard and wait"
19:09 asciilifeform actual commerce, i.e. the kind where you MAKE things, sell'em, do actual services for people, it is -- punished -- by the volatility
19:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:05:38 asciilifeform: mats: explain to me how volatility 'doesn't hurt' say a hypothetical asciilifeform who actually needs (as mp would have had it, if i'd have agreed to take the $10k/mo rack) the coin to cover the bill
19:10 signpost seems like volatility is decreasing somewhat. ~60k to ~30k is tame by historic standards (though I'm not calling a bottom)
19:12 asciilifeform signpost: imho the insight there is that it aint a scalar, and the vantage point matters -- to you and i, 60k->30k could be entirely uninteresting ; to someone who bought at 60 and now needs to get benjies ~today~ while 30 -- very interesting.
19:12 mats phished w/ a flash 0day and mimikatz to pivot l0l
19:12 asciilifeform wb mats
19:12 signpost asciilifeform: true of many investments, gotta be able to hold
19:12 asciilifeform mats: could've sworn this was in log..
19:12 asciilifeform (apparently not)
19:13 * signpost groans at stunning-rsa-hack, "bet it's that RSA", and yep
19:13 asciilifeform could 'tldr' $piece as 'centralized pseudo-crypto scammer has his master key stolen, blames designated emmanuel goldsteins'
19:14 mats whole story is hilarious, from hamfisted 'we are super ethical to our customers' advertisement to 'we installed butcher paper to beat laser mics'
19:14 asciilifeform mats: unmistakeable 'cocaine smell' there, eh.
19:14 mats masters of the cyber
19:14 asciilifeform is american thing, this 'hamster spins in wheel' sort of frenetic 'activity' these folx brag about
19:15 signpost << bwahahaha
19:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:03:37 davout: let's make it a scuba-diving themed get together
19:16 gregory4 I refuse to read Wired now, having run into several exceedingly poor articles of theirs, including "The Curse of Xanadu."
19:16 mats i love masks, gonna wear it forever now
19:16 mats don't have to breathe the weird old milk white man sweat smell in public
19:17 asciilifeform mats: i've one w/ the beak..
19:17 signpost mats: I think it's the diet of poison. I smell fine, even to azns!
19:17 gregory4 mats: is that sentence supposed to be parsed as "old, milk-white man-sweat" or "old-milk white-man sweat?"
19:17 mats lol, latter
19:18 asciilifeform heh, this is reminiscent of 19th c. usa 'the italians, their garlic sweats...' lulz
19:18 mats i dunno how it works, think some people just shovel wheels of cheese in their face before bed
19:18 asciilifeform '$foreigndevil and his $unspeakablefood'
19:18 signpost yeah, but this time it's the fake estrogens and pesticide
19:18 mats a friend once described 'night cheese', where he wakes up hungry and visits fridge
19:18 mats lul
19:19 asciilifeform mats: the substant, in such cases, is afaik virtually never anyffin oldworlder would recognize as 'cheese'
19:19 asciilifeform *substance
19:19 * signpost figures these creatures are in a permanent immune reaction, thus "smell sick"
19:20 signpost also fucked hormones, etc
19:20 asciilifeform there were rich gluttons in 19th c, and fuck, back in babylon, none of'em resembled the creatures from BB's 'beetus' photos
19:21 gregory4 asciilifeform: Velveeta is, in fact, one of the things which I miss about America.
19:21 signpost lol
19:21 asciilifeform gregory4: i met once australian who missed 'vegemite'. (then found that it is stocked in shops here..)
19:21 signpost I miss camel wides, but you know
19:21 asciilifeform (for the innocent -- strange yeast extract thing, resembles food in 'toothpaste tubes' for cosmonauts)
19:22 gregory4 when I was younger, I heard the term Vegemite and looked it up on Wikipedia. didn't understand article at all.
19:22 * asciilifeform encountered subj in 'alt.tasteless'
19:22 signpost << gotta ask, why is greece worth the $250k?
19:22 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 17:34:20 kakobrekla: lemme know when you want to actually move out of usganistan, i cant promise you shit aprat from that i will try to help you out. 250k for greece shouldnt be an impossible number.
19:23 asciilifeform signpost: don't miss the slightly later '30 cents / kW-hr.' greece thread..
19:23 whaack huzzah!
19:24 asciilifeform congrats whaack
19:24 asciilifeform whaack: does that thing take cmds?
19:24 whaack was twaeaking the kludge
19:24 gregory4 so what is the feature of this robot?
19:24 whaack yeah.. one second, going to reconnect with the version on your server
19:24 whaack this is my local bot which is only on block 350k or so
19:24 * signpost has also explored the various "buy into $island" paths, figures this gets him about what heading off to the woods gets, at greater expense
19:25 signpost i.e. can still be hunted if whichever meat-empire wishes
19:25 signpost also there's the 30-50% tax haircut to exit
19:25 asciilifeform signpost: the uruguay thing admittedly soured asciilifeform on 'escapes' to orcistans. who will smuggle in suitcases for me machines from usa , if i lived there w/ BB ? or, what, pay 300% 'vat' ??
19:26 asciilifeform signpost: it's a shite deal even if no one is hunting you, is my current understanding
19:26 asciilifeform unless you have some 'in' in a ~particular~ one
19:26 signpost right, leaving what
19:26 mats signpost: only way to get out of it is to be suborned by the other empire
19:26 signpost mats: correct
19:26 mats so, visit hk, walk away from tax obligations
19:27 signpost mats: iirc you fit better into azn-wot than I do
19:27 asciilifeform in usa there's a subculture of 'dissidents' who masturbate to singapore, of all places. at one pt i tried to figure out why, failed
19:27 asciilifeform dun seem like any of'em have ever been there or even read..
19:27 signpost doesn't much matter to me which bureaucrats eat my taxes
19:28 mats sg (and ru) has the much maligned, managed model of democracy usa is destined for
19:28 mats and no crypto taxes
19:28 whaack !e height
19:28 trbexplorer 690611
19:28 whaack !e help
19:28 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
19:28 mats naisu
19:28 signpost neato whaack
19:28 mats can i pm trbexplorer with cmds?
19:28 whaack !e view-block 100000
19:28 trbexplorer height: 100000
19:28 trbexplorer size: 957
19:28 trbexplorer version: 1
19:28 trbexplorer prev_hash: 000000000002d01c1fccc21636b607dfd930d31d01c3a62104612a1719011250
19:28 trbexplorer hash: 000000000003ba27aa200b1cecaad478d2b00432346c3f1f3986da1afd33e506
19:28 trbexplorer merkle_root: f3e94742aca4b5ef85488dc37c06c3282295ffec960994b2c0d5ac2a25a95766
19:28 trbexplorer timestamp: 1293623863
19:28 trbexplorer target: 453281356
19:28 trbexplorer nonce: 274148111
19:28 asciilifeform nifty
19:29 whaack mats: atm no, this is high on the todo list
19:29 signpost whaack: you're welcome to fart those to if you like
19:29 signpost i.e. multi-line outputs
19:29 gregory4 whaack: is it possible to get transactions by address of sender/recipient?
19:29 * asciilifeform doesn't actually mind having'em here, so long as they aint multi-MB
19:30 signpost ah cool, doesn't bother me any.
19:30 whaack all commands can have the output redirected to deedbot, and all arguments can be passed in through deedbot as well
19:30 whaack !e view-block -paste 100000
19:30 trbexplorer 1 of 1
19:31 asciilifeform << asciilifeform's model is 'whole picture', sees e.g. rent as a form of tax, and considers such q's as 'can get white man's food there? at what cost?' -- and not merely Official tax collected by official crown in $locale
19:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:28:18 mats: and no crypto taxes
19:31 whaack ^ example of output sent to deedbot
19:31 signpost ha neat
19:31 whaack !e view-block
19:31 trbexplorer height: 250000
19:31 trbexplorer size: 95451
19:31 trbexplorer version: 2
19:31 trbexplorer prev_hash: 0000000000000009c2e82d884ec07b4aafb64ca3ef83baca2b6b0b5eb72c8f02
19:31 trbexplorer hash: 000000000000003887df1f29024b06fc2200b55f8af8f35453d7be294df2d214
19:31 trbexplorer merkle_root: 16ec1eafaca8ca59d182cbf94f29b50b06ac4207b883f380b9bf547fe8fed723
19:31 trbexplorer timestamp: 1375533383
19:31 trbexplorer target: 426957810
19:31 trbexplorer nonce: 9533025
19:31 gregory4 asciilifeform: what sort of food, might I ask?
19:31 signpost asciilifeform: like I was trolling for years back, I'm still open to a wot startup if one becomes obvious.
19:31 asciilifeform mats: not to mention, a 'friendly' jurisdiction today aint necessarily so friendly tomorrow -- consider beijing.
19:32 whaack ^ example of input passed in through deedbot, particularly useful for the 'push' command which is unfortunately still not supported/tested
19:32 gregory4 I am familiar with Singapore (and I know some culinary science/history as well).
19:32 * signpost is otherwise going to retire in a few years
19:32 asciilifeform gregory4: dairy (incl. unpasteurized) for instance.
19:32 signpost there's a whole bookshelf I accumulated out of tmsr that I intend to eat before dead.
19:33 asciilifeform signpost: what do you picture when thinking 'wot startup' ?
19:33 asciilifeform i.e. commercial proj. w/ folx from wot ? anyffin moar specific ?
19:33 gregory4 asciilifeform: outside of Mainland, normal supermarkets have dairy across East/Southeast Asia. selection is limited but import-stores will have more.
19:33 whaack < yes, there are two relevant commands view-addres and utxos, both only work for "real" i.e. p2pkh addresses
19:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:29:33 gregory4: whaack: is it possible to get transactions by address of sender/recipient?
19:33 signpost asciilifeform: correct. I have a few ideas, but none I wish to share publically just yet
19:33 asciilifeform aite
19:33 gregory4 sorry by "dairy" I meant cheese specifically, which, in the Mainland, is slightly hard to find (even today, surprisingly).
19:34 * signpost notes that there are many things happening atop ethereum currently that are destined to be captured by its faux-decentralization.
19:34 gregory4 asciilifeform: Singapore actually seems like a good fit for you.
19:35 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform more or less terminally pessimistic re 'glorious commercial projs' after losing nth shirt making (monopoly!!!) honest iron
19:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 23:13:39 asciilifeform: is why, for instance, there are 'over 9000' whitening pseudo-trngs on the market today, but the only nonwhitening, shielded trng had print run of 200 , half of which was sold at the bankruptcy hammer
19:35 gregory4 I have even dealt before with Russian/Ukrainian programmers residing there.
19:35 whaack !e view-address 18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX
19:35 asciilifeform gregory4: i fucking hate block-of-flats densified life tho.
19:35 asciilifeform so no, not good fit.
19:35 gregory4 asciilifeform: so many demands lol
19:35 trbexplorer 1 of 7 2 of 7 3 of 7 4 of 7 5 of 7 6 of 7 7 of 7
19:35 signpost asciilifeform: yeah, you may recall my bitching for pages that all mp had for plans were narrow-margin shitcorps
19:36 mats i took a dive into the btc de-fi phenom 'rsk' btc sidechain recently, to examine 'sovryn' and its potential for bigbro-free margin trading
19:36 signpost ftr I don't think that's all he could've dreamt up, just liked jacking it to sisyphus
19:36 mats lots of moving parts and i don't know how to evaluate the risks still
19:37 gregory4 when considering havens, I could see myself locked in a monastery, even, if certain cultural/spiritual aspects of the society in question were granted.
19:37 mats they make use of things like spv, segwit, multisig, with plans for taproot and drivechain, so thats not good
19:37 asciilifeform mats: can call me a barbarian, but from my pov the mega-failure aint even usually in the programs-on-computer part, but the interface-with-meat, e.g. where you need cooperation (or at least toleration) from fiatola-reich
19:37 signpost mats: seems like someone's going to crack the "uber"/"airbnb"/etc business models into pieces atop defi in time.
19:37 asciilifeform (this in re exotic shitcoins etc)
19:37 mats sovryn is kyc free
19:38 whaack !e utxos 18cBEMRxXHqzWWCxZNtU91F5sbUNKhL5PX 50
19:38 asciilifeform mats: the ~usd you buy food with~ typically aint , tho
19:38 trbexplorer 1 of 1
19:38 asciilifeform how do you 'convert meters to liters' ?
19:38 mats i buy food with cash bruv
19:38 gregory4 whaack: did you have to compile a massive index to achieve this? I haven't looked into the RPC of Bitcoin that closely.
19:38 asciilifeform ok; how do you turn that $alt into benjies ?
19:38 signpost he farms a bunch of fattie whiteboys for their exotic cheeses
19:38 asciilifeform lol
19:39 whaack gregory4: yes, and it took multiple months AFTER syncing the trb node
19:39 asciilifeform whaack: fixed dumpblock didn't help?
19:39 whaack probably 4 months total if you consider syncing trb + indexing
19:39 gregory4 whaack: well, congratulations.
19:39 whaack ty
19:39 mats trade the rbtc for btc, then btc for benjies
19:39 gregory4 the need to assemble the index, for BTC or ETH, is the main barrier-to-entry to opening one's own block-inspector.
19:40 whaack asciilifeform: dumpblock only gave me trouble in that it loaded bad data into my index/db
19:40 asciilifeform gregory4: asciilifeform has a o(1) indexator , but not had time to finish it..
19:40 whaack and after your fix i was able to finish the sync properly
19:40 gregory4 asciilifeform: nice. I will study it.
19:40 asciilifeform gregory4: ( because, elementarily, life is very short, and mostly gotta do paying works )
19:41 asciilifeform imho the thing to do w/ that is to bolt it ~instead~ of bdb in trb . (as 1st shot in process of ditching ~whole ball of cpp shit~ )
19:41 asciilifeform gregory4: on top of cryostat, if not obv.
19:42 gregory4 asciilifeform: if I might ask another question, I recall you saying before that Bitcoin's internal scripting system originally had some merits.
19:42 asciilifeform gregory4: 'had' ? it's still there
19:42 mats cash comes with an unfortunate tax, but what can i do,
19:43 asciilifeform mats: much smaller than the having-to-actually-pay-tax tax of electro-usd, lol
19:44 gregory4 asciilifeform: what were the merits though? tbh. I find Satoshi's decision to include such a system to be confusing.
19:44 gregory4 especially since the scripts are attached to UTXOs, not to addresses as within Ethereum, the latter being the more intuitive model.
19:44 asciilifeform mats: the bigger cost of cash is that you have to structure all of your buying in such a way that you even ~can~ use it . which means ~many~ fewer merchants to choose from.
19:45 signpost << I once ran a business that for six years had no paper agreement between the coequal founders.
19:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-08 07:41:38 kakobrekla: play or get played
19:45 signpost who fucked whom?
19:45 asciilifeform gregory4: shitoshi wasn't a designer, but tinkerer, and the prototype had very little rational structure to it
19:45 signpost tmsr did not introduce me to the ideology of gpg contracts, just proposed a specific implementation
19:46 mats the non-turing complete script system is shit on a lot, undeservedly
19:46 signpost that said, one cannot operate without extending the opportunity to get fucked, as in all things.
19:47 asciilifeform mats: asciilifeform did come up with a 'not turing-complete, but functionally so, but with hard bounds on time and space cost' 'machine'. it's there for the cribbing.
19:49 asciilifeform ( spoiler : 'tape' comes with a fixed # of steps and storage space volume )
19:50 asciilifeform likewise direct transfer of control a la 'goto', and recursions, prohibited, so can readily determine # of times a given subroutine is called.
19:51 asciilifeform if software weren't 'lemon market', this might actually make a diff. somewhere.
19:51 asciilifeform but erryone focused simply on milking dough outta morons.
19:54 asciilifeform << because , near as i can tell, all he was actually interested in, was ~personal~ worship. did not want to build, e.g. aluminum mill, or airline, because no matter how profitable, would not ~personally~ felate.
19:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:35:57 signpost: asciilifeform: yeah, you may recall my bitching for pages that all mp had for plans were narrow-margin shitcorps
19:55 * signpost brb, f00d
19:55 asciilifeform << i still don't see anyffin to the 'defi' thing beyond scamola. if e.g. buterin doesn't like how your 'defi contract' turned out, he forks the chain, 'oops, unhappened'
19:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:37:44 signpost: mats: seems like someone's going to crack the "uber"/"airbnb"/etc business models into pieces atop defi in time.
19:56 mats the smart contract stuff creates liquidity, thats why
19:56 signpost certainly. what was the quote about "modern civilization"? "It'd be a great thing!"
19:56 asciilifeform mats: elaborate?
19:56 mats lots of nouveau rich who want to go long on their cryptothing and borrow fiat
19:57 mats or cryptodollars i guess
19:57 asciilifeform mats: how does this require 'smart' altcoins, tho?
19:57 asciilifeform yer dealing w/ fiat, so at any rate dealing with paper and banks etc
19:57 mats uniswap purports to do automated market making
19:57 mats its easy to move cryptodollars around
19:58 asciilifeform mats: do you remember the 'suggestively-named lisp token' thread ?
19:58 mats binance doesn't even have a banking relationship, just payments processors relationships
19:58 mats uhh, cardano? or is that haskell
19:59 asciilifeform lol which cardano
19:59 mats 'ada'coin
19:59 * asciilifeform not familiar, only knows the 'gpg pocket' one asciilifeform scrapped
20:00 * asciilifeform not connoisseur of alts..
20:00 mats there was a massive amount of demand for tethers in china up until the recent ban
20:00 * asciilifeform finally found the 'artificial stupidity' piece
20:00 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-01-21 adlai: aka
20:01 mats in the bear market days
20:01 asciilifeform ^ asciilifeform's point, can call an altcoin 'cryptodollar' or even 'cryptogold' or 'cryptouranium' but this does not somehow guarantee that, e.g., there'll be a finite supply of it, that you can transact how you want, or , most importantly, that you will be able to redeem yours for dollar/gold/uranium when you want to
20:02 mats well yeah, it has dollar in the name
20:02 mats i'm just telling you the news, don't shiv me
20:02 asciilifeform mats: no i get it, you collect these
20:02 mats recently.
20:02 asciilifeform and iirc shinohai arbitrages shitcoins
20:03 mats ftr i hold 0 shitcoins
20:03 asciilifeform i don't consider it sin, so long as you don't 'smoke own stash'
20:03 whaack << imo that's still the game until btc goes up another 20-100x. It's one of the first problems I brought up when I joined #b-a
20:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:51:29 asciilifeform: but erryone focused simply on milking dough outta morons.
20:03 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-04-04 whaack: ty, I've reached a point in my life where I can't stand working for VC money anymore. But I have an issue where I don't know of a better way to get bitcoins faster than milk a SF dev valley job and buy them with fiat. I've come for guidance on the issue
20:03 asciilifeform maybe i'm thick, but erry time i see a 'crypto-xyz' i recall e.g. 'maidsafe' and similar idiocies of 2010s
20:04 asciilifeform the current variants, yes, made with 'big budget' , not 'some d00d on reddit', but effectively same thing
20:05 asciilifeform whaack: if asciilifeform's model is correct, would be even worse for ~commerce~ if were to 'go up to' 100x of current, then could have 100x volatility instead of 2x..
20:05 asciilifeform try running so much as a dog walking company with ~that~ kind of currency.
20:07 mats i thought the prevailing theory was that volatility would go down once btc matured
20:08 asciilifeform mats: volatility will only go away when (if...) depaperized, somehow .
20:08 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
20:08 asciilifeform otherwise 'printer goes brrr!', musk buys 100k btc, then sells next day, bounce, bounce
20:08 mats intuitively, i don't think building derivatives on top of hard money will be nearly as easy
20:09 asciilifeform ideally imho would be impossible.
20:09 asciilifeform definancialization(tm)(r) motherfukers
20:09 mats theres like, 1,000tn usd in derivatives?
20:10 asciilifeform ( probably -- impossible - but dun hurt to contemplate.. )
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-08 15:41:24 asciilifeform: whole idea could very well be a perpetuum mobile -- as the penalty from paperization would have to somehow reliably exceed the ev of leverageism.
20:10 mats btc at 1mn per, would be 19tn, about double current gold
20:10 shinohai << Sometimes I help spread fake news just for the lulz too
20:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 16:02:52 asciilifeform: and iirc shinohai arbitrages shitcoins
20:11 asciilifeform mats: right, very easy to 'financialize' fiatola. but more or less impossible to do it w/ e.g. ~actual~ (not 'smart', and privkey-in-YOUR-hand) btc, for instance
20:12 whaack At a high bitcoin price there's (finally) an incentive for investors to buy capital to start a business. If the price of bitcoin dips after they've invested in the capital, all the better, they'll net a profit (as demoninated in BTC)
20:12 mats anyway, i expect the closed usd system to start leaking once the crypto-yen starts rolling out
20:12 mats motherfuckers can still keep printing usd because there's no exit
20:13 asciilifeform mats: do you recall when usa 'decided' to torpedo its industrial base? (80s) and jp didnt feel like following along off the cliff ? what did usg do
20:14 mats sanctions and trade war iirc
20:14 asciilifeform aha. (see e.g. )
20:14 dulapbot (alethepedia) 2020-10-01 asciilifeform: ( future historians, i suspect, will also include the 'control shot' with which usa finished off jp economically in '91 . )
20:15 asciilifeform ( and, etc )
20:15 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-11-30 asciilifeform: jp was a hair's width away from picking up the torch that anglotardistan dropped, and anglos knew this, and so in late '80s they engineered an economic implosion for'em
20:15 mats i remember reading a congressman saying, 'we should have dropped 4 bombs instead of 2'
20:15 mats lololol
20:15 gregory4 asciilifeform: Japanese industry continued to do quite well, though.
20:15 asciilifeform if jp were a sovereign country, rather than 52nd u.s. state, would have gone possibly otherwise.
20:16 asciilifeform gregory4: where can i buy a comp made 100% in jp ?
20:16 asciilifeform i own several, most recent made in '97 iirc
20:16 asciilifeform today -- 0 produced
20:16 gregory4 it was their international clout which was crippled, not their domestic wellbeing.
20:16 asciilifeform gregory4: they outsourced , exactly like usa
20:17 asciilifeform good % of what 'make' -- is simply paper-shuffling. 'intellectual propert'-whatever-wankeing. exactly again like usa.
20:17 asciilifeform and yes on paper 'their industry' exists and 'does well' aha.
20:17 gregory4 are you implying that the Japanese crash could have been worse, and that it was alleviated becuase Japanese leaders conceded to American demands?
20:18 asciilifeform ( except when it doesn't, lol )
20:18 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-12 asciilifeform: 'The Japanese government is considering providing state-backed aid to Toshiba’s memory business, amounting to near partial nationalisation, to prevent it falling into Chinese or South Korean hands...'
20:19 whaack !e height
20:19 trbexplorer 690611
20:19 asciilifeform gregory4: it was a hamstringing, jp never recovered, '5th gen computing' project vanished like a dream, 'sarariman for life' and the 'trad-family' it enabled -- mostly also vanish, and so forth
20:19 mats jp might be the single most important us ally on the planet today
20:19 mats theyre lobbying for inclusion into the five eyes
20:20 asciilifeform i can picture the answer, 'you can try and join when it's been 25y since your last factory moved to philippine'
20:20 asciilifeform can't help but picture a farmer's horse asking to join him & buddies in the bar, 'i also want to be farmer'
20:21 gregory4 asciilifeform: I need to read more about the Fifth Generation project. there was a book about it by J Marshall Unger which I was trying to obtain.
20:21 asciilifeform gregory4: ~very~ difficult to find ~any solid info, in asciilifeform's exper.
20:21 asciilifeform (possib. if you read jp -- can find)
20:21 mats anyway, cn is in a much better position than jp was in the 90s, and if they can gain more control over monetary policy through a usd competitor, there's room for them to maneuver geopolitically without fear of swift shenanigans
20:21 mats er 80s
20:22 gregory4 asciilifeform: understandable that little information exists. yes I can read Japanese but I am not familiar with their internet-community (nor even ODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODODwith China's, really).
20:22 asciilifeform mats: arguably cn already 'won'; what is produced ~anywhere~ w/out parts from cn ?
20:22 asciilifeform gregory4: ?
20:22 mats the west is carefully defending the semiconductor supply chain
20:22 gregory4 asciilifeform: understandable that little information exists. yes I can read Japanese but I am not familiar with their internet-community (nor even with China's, really).
20:23 mats and there's the matter of massive oil imports
20:23 mats bri is incomplete and disruptions to oil imports would be a problem
20:23 mats if, say, they decided to sail on taiwan
20:24 asciilifeform mats: when even the buttons on the mice in the semi. plants, and the buckles on even the shoes of the oil drillers, made in cn, what means to say 'west controls supply chain' ?
20:24 asciilifeform what does it actually control, other than bullshit production?
20:24 mats not control, but they own enough steps on the ladder to bottleneck / freeze up local production
20:24 mats
20:25 asciilifeform if tomorrow cn closes its border -- it'll have shoe buckles. and prolly even computers. and usa ?
20:25 mats they're working on independence, but still behind today
20:25 gregory4 asciilifeform: I still remember the chapter about logic-computing from Kogge's book.
20:25 asciilifeform gregory4: aha!
20:26 asciilifeform << can't resist to bite this: per modern-day usg, there were 3 avail., total.
20:26 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 16:15:50 mats: i remember reading a congressman saying, 'we should have dropped 4 bombs instead of 2'
20:26 gregory4 of course, information about Fifth Generation project probably won't be online in the first place. would need to visit library in Japan.
20:26 asciilifeform i.e. jp could've fought to stalemate.
20:27 asciilifeform gregory4: there was considerable lisp uptake there, ~all went completely away as if had never been.
20:29 gregory4 asciilifeform: against the United States they could have gotten stalemate, but the USSR was also attacking them.
20:29 * asciilifeform always had considerable respect for the way jp (used to) build irons -- 'to work for 1000 years', rather than decaying west's 'let's shave 0.003 cents and make it burn out 2week after warraty ends'
20:29 asciilifeform gregory4: at usg insistence
20:30 gregory4 asciilifeform: true...
20:30 asciilifeform algo was 1) 'press su to enter pacific war' 2) put on hiroshima-nagasaki show for it
20:30 asciilifeform stalin agreed to 'booby prize' -- kurils
20:31 asciilifeform (where to this day wank)
20:31 gregory4 if you put it that way, the United States basically bribed the USSR to attack Japan, similar to how Richelieu had bribed Sweden to help the German Protestants.
20:33 * asciilifeform must bbl
20:34 mats sorry, crypto-yuan, lol
20:35 mats they all look alike you know
20:37 gregory4 paradoxically, Japan is one of the best places in the modern day for the avoidance of American culture.
20:38 gregory4 the union with USA takes place at the level of upper class, not middle class.
20:39 gregory4 contrast this with Taiwan and South Koera, where union occurs at both upper and middle class.
20:40 gregory4 or with Mainland of China, where union is upper-middle class (but not upper).
20:40 mats it bothers me ethnically that jp-americans sit at the top of the demographic income ladder
20:41 verisimilitude I support the idea which is varyingly labelled ``totalitarian'', ``fascist'', or ``authoritarian'', signpost.
20:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 13:28:53 signpost: << careful in so restricting that you do not remove the possibility of sane human relationship. modern totalitarianism grows out of this same desire to remove all possibility of The Bad via "protocol".
20:42 gregory4 verisimilitude: the term Totalitarian implies absence of "null poena sine lege." you really want that?
20:44 verisimilitude My latin is still immature. Is this ``no punishment for the ruler''?
20:44 verisimilitude Wait, I omitted sine there.
20:45 gregory4 "no punishment without law." basically, the idea that a person needs to break a specific law, and have a trial, before being punished.
20:45 verisimilitude I'm only on the tenth chapter of my Latin book.
20:45 verisimilitude It doesn't imply that.
20:46 gregory4 verisimilitude: if it doesn't, then there is, AFAIK, no meaningful separation between Totalitarian and Authoritarian.
20:46 verisimilitude Regardless, an ideal society has an all-powerful ruler that makes no mistakes, meaning concepts such as ``double jeopardy'', for an imperfect society, are unnecessary.
20:47 verisimilitude The terms are conflated constantly, and I prefer not to label my thoughts so.
20:47 verisimilitude I believe in the strong ruling over the weak, simply put.
20:47 signpost "spoken like a man who has never been cracked one in the mouth"
20:48 gregory4 verisimilitude: what do you think of William Graham Sumner in that case? is that not similar to your view?
20:49 verisimilitude I can't write for the rest of you, but I regularly exercise, to become stronger. My goal is to be able to maim others, were it necessary.
20:49 mats i prefer, 'smart rule over the strong, and the strong rule over the weak'
20:49 verisimilitude Strong and smart are combined here, mats.
20:49 verisimilitude The stupid are weak.
20:49 verisimilitude I don't know of him, gregory4.
20:50 mats do any mma, verisimilitude?
20:51 verisimilitude No, but I'd like to. I'd like to be ``cracked one in the mouth'', and to still be standing afterwards.
20:52 punkman << worth if you are after permanent EU residency. Then you get sun/beach/mountain, some real estate, cheap services, people speak english, can fly easily to eu/asia/africa. if not so interested in EU, there are obviously better places to look at.
20:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:22:49 signpost: << gotta ask, why is greece worth the $250k?
20:52 signpost mental and physical fitness is well and good. I find this "makes no mistakes" complete nonsense, verisimilitude
20:53 signpost do let me know when you've discovered the creature capable of this. no points for "by way of doing nothing"
20:53 signpost punkman: europe seems nice, but questionable whether it'd materially improve my life to move there (at great cost)
20:54 signpost perhaps to a crypto-friendly jurisdiction if the right opportunity emerged
20:54 signpost upstack, this *chan fascism is a type of porn, not a coherent ideology.
21:00 gregory4 at risk of repeating myself, with regard to USA, I think Liberalism is already on its way out.
21:01 signpost that much is clear.
21:01 signpost that enlightened authoritarianism is next is not.
21:02 verisimilitude The ideal society has a god, a real god, signpost.
21:02 verisimilitude Oh, so what I prefer is mere pornography?
21:03 gregory4 very broadly speaking, Liberalism cannot, and has not survived the post-WW2 ethnic transition of the country away from the English ethnicity.
21:04 mats i rate the likely possibility of a managed model of democracy in usa
21:05 mats cant have the monkeys killing each other over fake news when they need to be slaving the next morning
21:06 mats bad for business
21:06 signpost verisimilitude: need I lay out a more elaborate invitation for you to defend your infallable god notion, or what
21:06 signpost mats: yeah, the covid experiment revealed the extent of the obedience toward such
21:07 mats the zuck, dorsey, and other oligarchs are feeling serious repercussions as states wake up to their monopoly on violence
21:07 signpost "was hoping you'd say netflix and chill and mean it"
21:07 verisimilitude It's in the logs, signpost.
21:07 mats like their local employees in ru, in, etc getting snatched and ransomed
21:07 signpost verisimilitude: so is the mp experiment, but throw me a link
21:07 verisimilitude I'll find it.
21:08 mats lels
21:09 verisimilitude
21:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-28 13:57:38 verisimilitude: Well, in mine ideal society, there's a god which decides that, and no one may disagree with it by definition, because it's more powerful than everyone else.
21:09 gregory4 mats: have you followed news of upcoming Hainan free-trade zone, by any chance?
21:10 mats nop
21:10 mats unrelatedly, i wonder about how the antitrust proceedings against big tech will impact international us competitiveness
21:11 mats is this really a good idea in the era of east india corp style 'civil military fusion'
21:11 gregory4 is anyone here familiar with history of anti-trust law?
21:12 gregory4 why did Robert Bork's model of anti-trust law become successful?
21:14 verisimilitude Is that from the ``Chicago School'' or whatever?
21:15 gregory4 verisimilitude: I don't know which "school" Judge Bork was part of.
21:16 signpost verisimilitude: I fail to see the use of this particular ideal, other than perhaps to dispense with the notion of politics entirely
21:17 signpost reminds me of mp's ideal woman
21:17 verisimilitude I will think in terms of ideals, and not settle for less.
21:18 signpost lol, I mean that's definitionally so
21:18 * signpost is curious whether verisimilitude means the impossible type of god, or the technologically constructed kind
21:19 verisimilitude People who don't consider ideals eventually forget about them.
21:19 signpost or if there are religious notions underpinning this
21:19 verisimilitude I'm not religious, but can understand the comfort it brings, even though I can't enjoy it.
21:21 * signpost had a similar idea re: nietzsche's ubermensch once, that it was to be thought of as ever-ahead, rather than attainable
21:24 signpost actually have an unfinished piece on subj somewhere
21:33 mats << well, a centaur (nakasone) runs nsa and cybercom
21:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 16:20:43 asciilifeform: can't help but picture a farmer's horse asking to join him & buddies in the bar, 'i also want to be farmer'
21:35 mats seems like a strategic pick, and approved by the senate!
21:50 asciilifeform mats: all kinds jp emigres & nth-gen folx 'made big' (recall president fujumori..) -- orig. point was in anglo's attitude to jp per se, 'horse' i.e. to be exploited and made for glue when done with
21:50 asciilifeform *fujimori
21:53 * asciilifeform very much sees modern jp as a country destroyed -- by the lizards -- with weapon of financialization. where suddenly somehow doesn't matter that your craftsmen polish $object for 5years and 'put soul' in it, all that matters is derivatives-fuckwaddery and pyramids of funny moneys
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 16:29:13 asciilifeform: always had considerable respect for the way jp (used to) build irons -- 'to work for 1000 years', rather than decaying west's 'let's shave 0.003 cents and make it burn out 2week after warraty ends'
21:54 gregory4 there is almost no similarity of thinking, in my experience, between citizens of East Asia and yellow Americans.
21:55 asciilifeform gregory4: americans come in only 3 kinds -- lizard (you'll never meet) , worker , and lumpen.
21:55 mats asians know how to assimilate, unlike muslims (and this isnt a value judgment)
21:55 asciilifeform and not really 'colour'-coded.
21:57 verisimilitude To give some credit, Nintendo is far better than Sony and Microsoft when it comes to building fun games.
21:58 gregory4 mats: it is not so much that they know how to assimilate, as that they lack any exotic religion to provide a counterweight to their American schooling.
22:00 gregory4 Muslim and Hindu children have their thoughts partly shaped by their ethnic religion. yellows seem to learn everything from either school or Evangelical church.
22:00 mats asciilifeform: i credit the theory, just wanted to point out the tidbit. ive gotten some pushback when relating the essential racism of american institutions, but folks recently clam up when i mention the dismissal of the harvard case on discrimination against asians, who apparently 'lack personality'
22:02 gregory4 asciilifeform: under my cosmology, the three groups (excluding Lizards) are Cosmopolitan, Yeoman, and Enclavist.
22:02 mats also hilarious to see self hating race traitors play it like asians are allowing themselves to be used in a crude ploy as submarines against affirmative action
22:03 mats rather than looking out, you know, for their own interests and their kids'
22:03 gregory4 Enclavist includes your "lumpens" but also non-white white-collars whose loyalty is firstly toward their ethnic group.
22:04 verisimilitude It's worth pointing out a Westerner, W. Edwards Demming, for the quality of Japanese manufacturing.
22:04 mats related luls, meritocracy is racist, did you know
22:04 verisimilitude They only achieved such standards by listening to him.
22:04 mats and
22:05 gregory4 verisimilitude: Japan learned a lot in the late 1800s from Britain and Germany.
~ 16 minutes ~
22:21 gregory4 mats: if you don't mind me asking, is "essential racism of american institutions" taken from Critical Race Theory?
22:22 gregory4 lately I have been reading some books about CRT, since so many people have been discussing it.
22:24 mats idk, CRT is like socialism, no two people in a group of 1,000 can agree on a definition
22:26 mats what i know is, liberals see institutional racism and think, 'we need more of that'
22:32 verisimilitude As others have pointed out, CRT is a convenient red herring in a society already burdened by ``civil rights''.
22:33 gregory4 the Liberals care about serving enclaves. they do almost nothing for honest non-white individuals who are trying to fit in.
22:35 verisimilitude These terms, ``conservative'' and ``liberal'', only serve to allow the monsters to shapeshift.
22:39 gregory4 that is true to an extent, but the attempt to transcend ideology and lay blame on an elite "monster" clique inevitably leads to "psychological supremacy."
22:40 verisimilitude So?
22:40 gregory4 ie. worship of modern psychology; and the framing of the battle as normal people versus so-called Psychopaths, Sociopaths, Narcissists.
22:40 gregory4 this was the intellectual template into which James Corbett ultimately settled.
22:41 asciilifeform << all i see there is folx (in this case, different flavours of poor emigres) fighting over crumbs from the master's table ('merit' spots in 'ivy' apparatus)
22:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 18:03:05 mats: rather than looking out, you know, for their own interests and their kids'
22:41 asciilifeform << 'merit' of schoolchildren is mostly bogus.
22:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 18:04:21 mats: related luls, meritocracy is racist, did you know
22:42 * asciilifeform went to 1 of these schools. in fact, coupla yrs ago heard that it was 'cancelled' exactly like the one in this link.
22:42 verisimilitude I don't know if that's a good framing compared to ``Psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists versus other psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists.''
22:42 asciilifeform mebbe 2/3 of the children were 'silver spoon' 'wasps', their parents simply got to save on tuition
22:42 * signpost also went to "magnet" school, was a joke
22:43 asciilifeform the joke, seems, stopped being funny, so mostly stopped being told..
22:44 asciilifeform the fundamental joke, the 1 where there's 'merit'
22:44 verisimilitude I went to a poor highschool; the most important lesson I learned was that I must take my learning under my control if I were to learn.
22:44 * signpost incidentally learned same from the other end
22:44 asciilifeform verisimilitude: learning vis a vis school is rather like j.e.hoover's 'justice is incidental to law enforcement' (tm)(r)
22:44 gregory4 asciilifeform: also, I was told that 20% of Ivy League spots go to athletic scholarships.
22:45 verisimilitude I thought college would be different, and was quickly dispelled of the thought.
22:45 gregory4 asciilifeform: horrifying quotation.
22:45 asciilifeform gregory4: it's an important lumpen-brainwashing apparatus in usa, along with the lottery
22:45 asciilifeform give'em the 'carrot'
22:47 mats i dont approve of an athletics quota system, but i think encouraging competitive fitness is valuable
22:47 verisimilitude I learned a different lesson from that; had I gone to a ``good'' college and learned ``the way things are'', it would've killed my beautiful thoughts borne of ignorance from the sickening normality.
22:47 gregory4 verisimilitude: if you scratch the surface slightly, the existence of Psychopaths, like that of aliens, was itself promoted by Establishment members.
22:47 asciilifeform gregory4, verisimilitude : for lizard/jr.lizard offspring, school is for this ; for those of 'aspirationals', for mimicry of the latter; for those of workers -- to instill obedience ; for lumpens -- prison/warehouse.
22:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-22 18:13:08 gregorynyssa: the central aim of British upper-class boarding schools is to teach such traditions, principles, and manners as to promote solidarity among the upper class.
22:47 mats nerddom has this vulnerability / insecurity about it in evaluation of students
22:48 asciilifeform gregory4: psychopaths unfortunately not only exist but don't have to go far (mp, lizards)
22:48 asciilifeform mats: elaborate?
22:48 signpost verisimilitude: sounds like same story as mine. I was duped into padding the stats of a shitty state school with a fat stipend.
22:48 verisimilitude I still occasionally wonder what I'm, gregory4; I'm not normal, and the normal people seem worse than any psychopath.
22:48 * signpost put the second-semester check in his pocket and checked out to the beach for a season
22:49 mats like its unfair for athletics scholarships to go to otherwise academically mediocre scholar athletes
22:49 verisimilitude Don't be racist, mats.
22:50 asciilifeform mats: i found interesting that the 'athletic carrot for lumpens' and pseudo-academe had to live under same roof; reminiscent imho of medieval 'barber-surgeons' , but at least the latter both used knife
22:51 mats lol
22:51 asciilifeform ( 'carrot' using here as term of art, i.e. device for coaxing intellectually dim people into playing -ev games )
22:52 asciilifeform in the end decided that is simply a herding of victims by age group, hence both in same institutions.
22:52 asciilifeform no matter that the 'athletes' (largely simply waste material for the selection mill) and faux-physicists, faux-engineers, etc have to live in same pit
22:53 asciilifeform it makes sense organizationally.
22:54 mats i mean, purely anecdotally, i'd overwhelmingly (but not without exception) rather interact with fit people, because odds have been they are more willing to work as hard in their personal lives as in the gym or on the field
22:54 * signpost might say exact same about rednecks, for same reason
22:55 signpost "at least this fucker can chop wood if it gets cold"
22:56 asciilifeform signpost: i did not until far into adulthood encounter these people who so 'theoretical' that cannot chop wood
22:56 asciilifeform but they, apparently, exist.
22:56 mats and ftr i dont think i was ever especially fit, mostly a casual in k12+ sportsballs
22:56 asciilifeform i learned that in usa there are households where there is no hammer.
22:56 asciilifeform no screwdriver. no saw.
22:56 asciilifeform folx who 100% reliant on costly 'services'
22:58 mats lol, there are tens of thousands of sv faangm coolies who dont cook, clean, drive, or wash themselves
22:58 verisimilitude I laugh at those whose thermostats require an Internet connection to work, bemoaning the cold.
22:58 mats the gig economy was built for them
22:58 signpost wait, I can hire someone to come scrub my balls?
22:58 mats o no, they just remained unwashed
22:59 verisimilitude This seems like a natural progression of capitalism, mats.
22:59 asciilifeform mats: asciilifeform would never describe self as 'athlete' (lol) but can carry e.g. a reasonably-sized fellow human to safety, or 2 full nato 'jerry cans', or 9000 other things i consider ~minimal~ spec for a male in late '30s
22:59 verisimilitude Why build something useful rather than breed people useless?
22:59 signpost incidentally signpost just snagged 8 of these from "wavian"
23:00 asciilifeform verisimilitude: do you recall n.tesla's grim prediction re 'society of the insects' ?
23:00 verisimilitude No.
23:00 asciilifeform signpost: they're ok, except for the funnels
23:00 signpost yeah, those are pretty meh
23:01 signpost was the only distributor I could find that wasn't severely backlogged (at the time)
23:01 asciilifeform verisimilitude: subj if you have the patience.
23:01 mats alf knows how to fireman carry?
23:01 mats nice
23:01 asciilifeform mats: prolly not 'to spec' to pass exam.. but i was speaking of what i think of as ~basic~ abilities for grown man, rather than exotic skills.
23:02 verisimilitude Does transporting a man need to be in one trip?
23:02 asciilifeform in usa apparently some of these considered exotic
23:02 mats i remember staggering under the weight of a midwestern american
23:02 signpost lol
23:02 asciilifeform verisimilitude: lol not always ! (see reiser et al)
23:02 mats and a full sized mattress, in basic
23:02 asciilifeform mats: i dunno if i could lift a 'midwesterner' lol
23:02 asciilifeform at least in 1 piece..
23:02 asciilifeform for this -- prolly needs circus performer
23:03 mats weird shape and weight distribution, wasnt too heavy
23:04 mats short story is, some guy left his rifle behind and we were all made to drag mattresses into formation and have them stood up tall
23:05 asciilifeform mats: army mattress is a little thing, neh?
23:05 mats then full mopp and battle racket with circuits around the track
23:05 asciilifeform aah you were made to march with'em?
23:05 mats they were the extended twin / full sized thing
23:06 asciilifeform ( also in gas mask? or no? )
23:06 mats well we put the mattresses back, but yeah
23:06 asciilifeform sounds like a++ lesson
23:06 * asciilifeform father had 'over 9000' lessons like this. asciilifeform did not get to be in the army. which is a shame, it'd've been 9000x moar useful than what did instead
23:07 mats ya, its a good drinking story
23:14 mats er, battle rattle
23:26 asciilifeform meanwhile, asciilifeform went 'can use a footnote >1nce in 'markdown' formatter ?' -- apparently not! and the fuckwads/'maintainers' are proud!'
23:27 asciilifeform sooo apparently not possible to simply use output of this thing.
23:27 * asciilifeform remembers this was why he quit using it entirely in 2010s
23:27 asciilifeform fucking circus.
23:27 asciilifeform doesn't know how to renumber sections, either.
23:31 asciilifeform if anyone knows of a ascii-dressing to htmlade formatter that aint hipsterware -- plox to write in.
23:31 mats is this a problem still in markdown 5?
23:31 mats think ive seen multiple footnotes in markdown before
23:32 asciilifeform mats: multiple invocations of 1 footnote
23:32 asciilifeform without duplication
23:32 asciilifeform and correct reordering
23:34 asciilifeform so if i [^bar] .... [^foo] ... [^foo] ... [^bar] ... [^baz] .... [^bar]:... [^foo]:... [^baz] --- the output had better not contain more than 3 footnotes.
23:34 asciilifeform and the numbers had better be 1,2,3.
23:34 asciilifeform neither is troo in 'markdown2'.
23:34 asciilifeform (where is there a '5' ??)
23:35 * asciilifeform was trying this one
23:37 asciilifeform or say i want to rename a section, or insert one between existing sections.
23:37 asciilifeform now have to manually change 9000+ links? WHY?
23:38 * asciilifeform pictures answer, 'because, you moron, it's decorative svhipsterware, why are you trying to USE it, what kind idjit..'
23:39 * asciilifeform had enuff, will bbl
23:40 mats yeah i see what you mean, reproduced it in the macos app macdown
23:41 verisimilitude I use a custom format I translate to HTML manually; to support anything beyond <p>, I'll just use text replacement, once I actually implement this.
23:50 verisimilitude I take it we both avoided debt as well?
23:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 18:48:37 signpost: verisimilitude: sounds like same story as mine. I was duped into padding the stats of a shitty state school with a fat stipend.
23:51 verisimilitude That ``both'' was unnecessary.
23:54 signpost incurred a bit during the early days of my business, but long since paid off, and long since sworn off.
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