#asciilifeform | 2022-03-27

(trilema) 2020-01-25 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957195 << hm where's the line from mircea_popescu about the bum in the street screaming at you to get off HIS corner having more patriotism than "you've" ever had

00:05

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089218 << it's discourse, bud. earnest even.

00:05

Logged on 2022-03-26 17:46:20 mats: thats a lot of highlights

00:06

*

signpost will give mats ample time to read and respond before getting cranky.

00:09

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089221 << notbad; lulzy oblig. litter in the comments re urbitism and even ye olde picolisp. sad how folx can run 100% in circles for decade+ and not ever show slightest symptoms of noticing.

00:09

Logged on 2022-03-26 19:35:03 verisimilitude: This is interesting: https://fultonsramblings.substack.com/p/why-we-need-lisp-machines

00:09

Logged on 2020-12-31 14:18:39 asciilifeform: ( see also . )

00:09

(trilema) 2015-04-09 asciilifeform: which brings the infamous 'funarg problem' back from the dead

00:12

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089223 << then perharps even has coupla yrs to live before saws foot, lol

00:12

Logged on 2022-03-26 19:37:53 verisimilitude: Apparently, the author is a teenager.

00:12

Logged on 2022-03-17 15:05:36 signpost: mangol: guy apparently sawed his foot off or something, and then died or went to jail

00:13

hell of an escalation past eating his own toejam, if you ask me.

00:14

it made imho a kind of perverse sense. fella didn't have all that many paths left to walk. so, wagner

00:15

*

asciilifeform 's brother calls it 'walking the path', by which means, young thing reads asciilifeform's www, 'turns on, tunes, in, drops out', dies

00:16

i suppose 1 sane reaction to realizing that the field you wanted into since you were 5yo aint advancing, and aint aboutta, is to become a bricklayer or accountant. but unsurprisingly we tend not to hear from these.

00:17

sad version of the monty python killer joke.

00:17

aaha

00:18

*

signpost figures g_l was being fed cheap stims since well before he took meaningful interest in computers.

00:18

hm thought he found'em as already adult, living in thiel's dens of iniquity. but can't recall precisely

00:18

ah, can't say I recall. just fit an archetype I'd previously encountered.

00:18

signpost: what kinda archetype ?

00:18

Fortunately, I never respected asciilifeform enough to go insane from read Loper-OS.

00:19

verisimilitude: a++

00:19

kid takes stims during development, can never feel normal without.

00:19

From reading, that is.

00:19

*

signpost grew up in texas suburbs, was fortunate to have some of the few parents not drugging the "young man" out of him.

00:19

signpost: i've not encountered afaik folx who took up dope habit in childhood. but can picture

00:20

When I realized computing was in such a sorry state, I thought ``Hey, I can make a name for myself, perhaps.''.

00:20

I only later learned making a name for oneself isn't at all related to achievements.

00:20

^

00:21

*

signpost never cared for a name, but probably took the most LSD in his 20s of this assembly.

00:21

Also fortunately, I've a pressure-relief valve in the form of something entirely unrelated to computers, and it's not Latin.

00:22

*

signpost resists, too easy.

00:22

Latin is nice and a further relief, however.

00:22

What?

00:22

the masturbation joke is sitting right there.

00:22

As figured.

00:22

lol

00:23

No, I stopped masturbating often because it was bad for my wrists.

00:23

the jp folx prolly have an ergonomic solution to this, lol

00:23

Nothing matters more to me than my creative work, so I'll cut anything and everything out of my life if it gets in the way.

00:24

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089219 << not all that diff. from folx who 'reset' their head w/ vodka errynight

00:24

Logged on 2022-03-26 18:57:30 verisimilitude: I've seen a few retards lately arguing that orthogonal persistance is bad, because then they can restart the machine to ``fix'' an error.

00:25

Observe the fuckwits here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30811592

00:25

it... sorta worx, i suppose

00:25

There's manually saving that state with a video camera, however.

00:26

verisimilitude: there's over9000 'unix is great, shuddup terrorist' threads on lolcombinator. iirc there was just about errytime somebody liked to asciilifeform's pieces

00:26

they're rather tedious imho

00:26

*

asciilifeform no longer posts there and aint aboutta start

00:27

they're either paying massive money to accumulate trivia, or aspire to do so.

00:27

but yes, typical dimwit told about 'orthogonal persistence' immediately pictures sumething like a win95 box that never gets rebooted

00:28

I'm tempted to post there again, but it would just disappoint me, I know.

00:28

*

signpost nearly died from laughter when he learned that a particular megacorp lists "complexity" as one of its pillars of model engineering.

00:28

lol!

00:28

you get what you pay for.

00:28

If it wouldn't reach the front page, it would displease me; if it would, they wouldn't have anything of worth with which to comment, anyway.

00:29

and, when paying to get fucked by chimps, may even get moar than paid for!

00:30

*

signpost meant *being paid to accumulate

00:31

signpost: likely most of the inhabitants of this & other reddits paid to 'fly desk' and mostly reddit

00:31

never saw such little work get done for so much money.

00:32

I've had exactly one young fellow send me an e-mail, as asciilifeform receives. He told me most of it was above him, but perhaps he'd understand after college.

00:32

*

asciilifeform recalls a well-known orc memoirist and his flies

00:32

Logged on 2020-06-19 23:20:36 asciilifeform: pictures current-day ft meade as similar to maslennikov's 1990 kgb ciphrodirectorate where they clocked in, then spent 9h chasing flies around the room..

00:32

lately i've been interested in doing mike_c style analysis of kalshi resolved event contracts

00:32

( they didn't yet have reddit )

00:33

mats: what's a kalshi ?

00:33

cftc approved fiat bitbet without time weights

00:33

mats: how does the refereeing work there ?

00:34

https://kalshi.com/ << this thing eh?

00:34

they tell you what source they'll use

00:34

i.e. https://kalshi.com/events/FEDR5/markets/FED-041

00:34

mats: have you tried it ?

00:35

no, just want to look at it for now and think of interesting analytical questions to ask/answer

00:35

been meaning to learn something like pandas

00:37

Issues with pandas are hard to reproduce.

00:37

finally, a good crack

00:37

lol

00:38

mats: loox like a 'bitbet w/out the bit'

00:38

iirc there's a # of these

00:39

*

asciilifeform wonders what distinguishes the Officially permitted ones from the 'black market' sort

00:39

kyc

00:39

prolly 'kyc'ism & tax snoopage

00:39

aaha

00:40

i think polymarket is the single largest competitor

00:40

seems like if yer indifferent to the snooping, wainot buy regular old futures & similar

00:40

rather than bet on 'oil price will increase' etc

00:40

on a faux-bitbet

00:42

its a far more direct way to bet on events, not necessarily for this contract

00:44

bbet-cum-kyc seems like a reliable way to make sure only low-info players play (i.e. folx w/out direct knowledge of the event)

00:44

there's no trivial way to bet on whether there'll be recession this year

00:44

'chess by vote'

00:44

you might be right

00:44

er, no trivial way to bet on whether there'll be recession this year, with a traditional future

00:46

i haven't really thought about the polymarkets and augurs, but at first pass the volatility associated with their tokens could be a problem

00:47

not even to mention the obv. problem w/ betting on e.g. death of usd, in usd

00:48

are people more reckless with spending their shitcoin (which has appreciated dramatically) on prop bets or nfts? maybe

00:48

the 'hedge' folx have an expression about this, iirc approx 'can only make bets when the horses are actually separate, you can't bet on asteroid flattening the horses'

00:49

mats: even ~decade ago, recall how btc enthusiasts eagerly pissed away their hodls wholesale on all kindsa numbersgame strange

00:49

there was widespread feeling (prolly similarly nao) that 'it aint money', 'why not gamble it'

00:50

this is why it makes sense to invest at the start of a major war.

00:50

if your side loses...

00:50

not to mention was 1 of the few things one could do where stood a (perceived) chance of getting hold of moar coin

00:52

*

mats relives glory of winning 4x lopsided trump bet

00:53

asciilifeform's bbet experience ftr

00:53

Logged on 2021-07-11 14:46:49 asciilifeform: must confess that it does not to him 'feel cheap'. consider, could run isp for 20yrs and still not make back the 5btc asciilifeform lost on the 'alphago bet' on bbet

00:54

iirc lost at least 10 all in all before quit

00:54

hey, I know a guy that lost 136btc to a forgotten luks passphrase

00:54

hence not particularly eager to look for a replacement, even if one existed ( the kycistic shops not interesting even in this light )

00:54

mined 'em, even

00:54

afaik still alive!

00:55

does he still have the disk?

00:56

mats: why, wouldja buy it ? ( how wouldja distinguish it from a /dev/random lulz ? )

00:56

i wouldnt pay money for it but it would be interesting to try to crack it

00:57

don't know the guy anymore, not sure.

00:57

mats: can similarly try 'cracking' capt.kidd's 'treasure map', iirc still aint cracked

00:57

should've said *knew

00:58

fwiw the island on that map in fact in cr

00:58

dude was already pretty sad at $300 bux

00:58

iirc luks has headers

00:58

guy was the type that would've had a long passphrase.

00:59

and large aes keysize

00:59

so sorta distinguishable from /dev/random

00:59

mats: woudlja find it difficult to produce a similar disk , headers or not ?

01:00

take coupla gb from /dev/random, throw it in a 'luks' w/ similarly-genned pw, 'profit!111'

01:00

people have recovered wallets before

01:01

its not wildly fanciful

01:01

passphrase longer than a few words gets astonishingly impossible to bruteforce.

01:02

get some info on whats remembered about the phrase, give it a few hundos in vast.ai time on an array of 3090s, and set it aside when it fails

01:03

ive bought scratchers as a younger man

01:07

yeah, cost/benefit will only increase from here.

01:08

*

signpost recalls the episode of the guy wanting to search an entire landfill

01:09

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/this-guy-would-have-millions-of-dollars-if-he-could-access-his-bitcoin/ar-AAU8hwG << claims 7.5k btc, woof.

01:20

I'm not really torn up on ``missing the boat'', given such stories.

~ 33 minutes ~

01:54

a nine year old can figure out backups in triplicate

01:54

A nine year old can also figure how a proper computer should work, but I don't see them helping there either.

02:04

The analogy I use is of setting paper money aflame.

02:04

One can't expect to have his money after that.

~ 45 minutes ~

02:50

https://archive.ph/niT1F "President Joe Biden will propose a minimum 20% tax rate that would hit both the income and unrealized capital gains of U.S. households worth more than $100 million as part of his budget proposal to be released on Monday."

02:52

It's nice to see most white people worth more than $100 million thanks to his policies.

~ 1 hours 32 minutes ~

04:24

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089375 << irecall this lul from last (?) yr, and still dun get, with what is the victim supposed to pay a tax on ~unrealized~ 'gain' ?

04:24

Logged on 2022-03-26 22:49:22 mats: https://archive.ph/niT1F "President Joe Biden will propose a minimum 20% tax rate that would hit both the income and unrealized capital gains of U.S. households worth more than $100 million as part of his budget proposal to be released on Monday."

04:25

... if it's with money -- after coupla iterations, he'll have none; if with 'asset', and expected to sell it -- ditto, and nonlinearly, most paperola is only worth ~any when ~nobody sells

04:26

seems moar humane to shoot & dekulakize a la 1917.

04:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089376 << soon enuff, naturally

04:29

Logged on 2022-03-26 22:51:40 verisimilitude: It's nice to see most white people worth more than $100 million thanks to his policies.

04:29

... via the obv. path.

04:29

Logged on 2022-03-25 16:05:41 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-25#1088692 << can't speak for other folx, but in asciilifeform's corner of the barbed wire, 'sandwich' seems set to win the race for 'new zero', well ahead of btc-usd exchrt

~ 23 minutes ~

04:53

the lul is going to be generating unrealized losses and scraping gambling money *out* of the government with this.

04:53

they'll likely pay with loans, if this passes.

05:07

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60878133

05:08

Apparently, Putin has compared criticism of Russians to criticism of JK Rowling.

05:11

we're going to be nuked by a harry potter fan, verisimilitude.

05:12

jk rowling is great

05:12

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/oct/24/jk-rowling-urges-students-not-to-volunteer-at-orphanages

05:14

lost count of the number of dipshits i used to know, that have instagrams picturing themselves in culturally appropriate dress and black children during a month long fakework trip

05:16

religious people are the worst

05:17

*

signpost at a certain point trashed all social media accts populated with folks he grew up with.

05:17

ended up a nice filter, plenty of high quality folks remained.

05:18

but yeah, totally know what you're talking about, posing on a mission trip, etc

05:18

I've a joke for this occasion.

05:19

What is a similarity between major religions and major corporations?

05:19

After they saturate domestically, they begin making massive appeals to foreigners.

05:19

no

05:20

just stop

05:22

that's just a statement of fact, nothing unexpected, nor unusal path to the expected.

05:22

*unusual

05:22

Some of the best jokes are offensive statements of fact.

~ 1 hours 25 minutes ~

06:48

god has a sense of humor

06:49

i've been working on a plan to scrape good stuff from the web, process it into more convenient formats, and store it for offline archival / hash based sharing

06:51

essentially a graph where the initial node is a program that downloads from www and spits out static files

06:51

those files are ideally immutable (the initial program can take ephemeral www content, e.g. rss or irc, and chop it into daily/weekly/monthly static files)

06:52

the immutable files are then fed to other programs as desired, to produce derived files

06:53

immutable files and derived files are hashed to ensure integrity / detect changes. programs can be hashed

06:53

archive.today

06:54

i'm gathering a simple subset of scheme so the filters can run in a portable, reproducible environment

06:55

typically scraping is done with no attention paid to reproducibility

06:56

archive.today == deplorable emulation of archive.org?

06:57

btw just downloaded uncle al 's site from the latter, on recommendation of asciilifeform

06:58

Who?

06:58

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=uncle+al+schwartz&chan=all

06:59

Alright.

06:59

Would my website be scraped so, mangol?

06:59

if you want

06:59

Know that's foolish.

06:59

My Gopher hole is much better for this purpose.

06:59

gopher fine as well

07:00

i'm preoccupied with making a simple scheme-based framework for reproducible filters

07:00

Alright.

07:00

the more filters that can be plugged into it, the better

07:02

the idea is to have a clean separation between teh unruly internets and the clean, reproducible filter world

07:02

i have a logotron scraper done

07:03

i.e. download http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/static/log_db.gz and turn into daily tab-separated-values files

07:03

and a filter to turn the daily files into json

07:04

(i have a draft spec for representing irc logs as json, can post for review soon)

07:04

archive.today seems to have "download .zip" link for each page, but the ones i tried are not currently working

07:05

to get stuff from archive.org, https://github.com/hartator/wayback-machine-downloader is wonderful

07:05

it's a ruby script

07:12

here's the IRC JSON draft: https://misc.lassi.io/2022/irc-json-draft.text

07:12

example of how it looks: https://misc.lassi.io/2022/irc-json-example.jsonl

07:13

i noticed you all wrote irssi, znc, etc. scrapers for logotron. i can adapt some of those to scheme

07:13

should probably write a scheme V as well

07:16

asciilifeform: if you're not allergic to JSON and the above IRC JSON spec, a URL to download last full day's logs (or last 30 full days, etc.) would be great

07:16

or if you _are_ allergic, something like tab-separated values or comma-separated values will do as well (though the latter is _more_ complex than JSON)

07:17

when i downloaded http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/static/log_db.gz it took like half an hour or something

~ 29 minutes ~

07:46

asciilifeform: https://misc.lassi.io/2022/uncleal.tgz

07:46

https://misc.lassi.io/2022/uncleal/

07:47

^ that's the output of running `wayback_machine_downloader https://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/`

07:49

almost 1000 html files, he was quite prolific

07:49

JSON sucks.

07:49

i have a plan for civilizing html markup too, but will explain later. ties easiy into filter scheme plan.

07:50

*easiyl

07:50

*easily

07:50

verisimilitude: why?

07:51

It's a retarded form of S-expressions.

07:51

It's perfect for the WWW, however.

07:52

Some stupid asshole takes some syntax from a shitty programming language made over a weekend and starts fellating himself for inventing a new data format.

07:53

there are few bigger fans of S-expressions than i am, and i hold JSON in high regard

07:54

one of the few standards done right

07:54

Store a large number with JSON.

07:54

a large integer or fraction, i presume

07:55

Yes.

07:55

how does that differ from doing same with s-expressions?

07:56

It won't work with JSON.

07:56

It's clear now that, between us, only I know of this issue.

07:56

conventionally people explain themselves when that's the case

07:58

The JavaScript numerical nonsense interferes.

07:59

JSON is not tied to JavaScript. JSON fractions don't even have to be parsed into floats

08:00

Sure, but many implementations will mangle numbers.

08:00

so will many lisp implementations. check github for over9k flavors of the month

08:01

conflating languages (or formats) with their implementations is useful if you gotta ship a product asap

08:01

but unsound in principle

08:03

It's harder to parse than S-expressions.

08:05

JSON has no symbol type.

08:06

JSON is far uglier.

08:07

JSON doesn't encode programs effectively.

08:16

(fwiw my IRC JSON spec doesn't use the JSON number type - only strings, "arrays", "objects")

08:17

depends on what you wanna do

08:18

JSON isn't human writable. IRC logs don't need to be human written

08:23

the reason i chose JSON instead of sexp for this project is 1) it has a standard way to encode "dictionaries", aka "maps" or "objects"; 2) https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ - a great irc spec site - is already using it; it may be used in future version of irc protocol; 3) over9k ready made libraries; 4) most importantly, can hope to get other people to use it, so in the future i could download some logs

08:23

that others readily provide as JSON, don't have to write own scraper for everything

08:26

as a spec, JSON has one big caveat, and it's that it assumes unicode

~ 47 minutes ~

09:14

does mp-wp run with anything other than mysql?

09:17

nvm

09:25

*

crtdaydreams trying to get mp-wp up on freebsd

09:27

one of the most desirable items for above outlined "filter scheme" contraption would be a wordpress extractor

09:28

I'm also using nginx+FPM as opposed to apache while having to source install php56 (EoL). Should be ``fun''.

09:28

does mp-wp use the same HTML structure to the extent that poasts and comments can be found via standard wp HTML ID attributes

09:29

If anyone has already done so (x doubt) and has a guide. Would def like. Otherwise might end up hacking sauce and writing own guide.

09:30

**or** if someone has downdated mp-wp to an older version of php i.e. php70.

09:30

s/older/shittier/

09:31

does #a use old versions of php?

09:32

not sure. current ver. I'm working off for mp-wp as per billymg's guide is <=php56

09:32

Logged on 2022-03-27 05:13:32 crtdaydreams: does mp-wp run with anything other than mysql?

09:34

*

crtdaydreams has yet to read compress mp-wp genesis

09:34

**and associated Vtree

09:35

verisimilitude: `lynx gopher://verisimilitudes.net` finds your site

~ 27 minutes ~

10:02

Yes.

~ 1 hours 59 minutes ~

12:01

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-26#1089219 << enjoyed this thread

12:01

Logged on 2022-03-26 18:57:30 verisimilitude: I've seen a few retards lately arguing that orthogonal persistance is bad, because then they can restart the machine to ``fix'' an error.

12:02

HN started to be unreadable sometime during the last decade

~ 3 hours 3 minutes ~

15:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089385 << what reason is there to think it'll work in reverse gear ?

15:06

Logged on 2022-03-27 00:52:32 signpost: the lul is going to be generating unrealized losses and scraping gambling money *out* of the government with this.

15:10

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089443 << this is nifty. here's a warezball of his old Official floppy dist. for completeness (could've sworn posted yrs ago, but couldn't turn up in log)

15:10

Logged on 2022-03-27 03:45:52 mangol: https://misc.lassi.io/2022/uncleal/

15:14

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089440 << there's a raw-log knob, which yields up to 500 ln, e.g.

↖ ↖ ↖

15:14

Logged on 2022-03-27 03:16:01 mangol: or if you _are_ allergic, something like tab-separated values or comma-separated values will do as well (though the latter is _more_ complex than JSON)

15:24

talk radio as text files on a floppy :D interesting experience

15:24

mangol: talk radio ?

15:25

in spirit

15:25

mangol: 1st time ever heard uncleal described as 'radio in spirit' lol

15:30

maybe something doesn't translate over to this side of the pond but i get the american conservative talk radio vibe from his floppy & site. the rush limbaugh type. not normal?

15:31

raunchy and unabashed, mixing high brow and low brow

15:41

crtdaydreams: you won't have much luck with php7 out of the box but you could in theory patch it and create a fork that's php7 compatible. easier imo to build php5.6 from source or find an old .deb build file for it (that's what i do for gentoo, never used debian's package manager)

15:42

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089484 << for comments, yes, standard across themes as it calls wp_list_comments() inside wp-includes/comment-template.php to generate the html

15:42

Logged on 2022-03-27 09:28:20 mangol: does mp-wp use the same HTML structure to the extent that poasts and comments can be found via standard wp HTML ID attributes

15:43

post content might vary slightly across themes if you're relying on ids or classnames to find the content

15:45

billymg: thanks. is the variation meaningful or just a historical accident?

15:45

actually, i take that back, the class "hentry" is defined in wp-includes/post-template.php, so that would be a theme-agnostic way of finding the post content

15:45

cool

15:48

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087753 http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087755 << would love to. there are a few lispers with some plans

15:48

Logged on 2022-03-24 15:13:47 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087693 << "The trouble was that none of the 9 were properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine. This is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it. It is also the product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."

15:48

Logged on 2022-03-24 15:16:12 billymg: imo this is something we could work on

15:48

all of those plans will take a long time tho :-/

↖ ↖

15:51

imo the one nice thing about having a fuhrer (back in the mp era) was someone to say "we're doing x and using y to do so, get to work" vs. 100 splintered efforts. however, great collaboration on e.g. pest without fuhrer

15:54

i have a feeling there will be a natural pull back to joint efforts. at the moment is like video of vase dropping to floor and flying into a thousand pieces, soon tape will stop and be played in reverse with all the pieces reassembling back into one. i think we're almost at that point

15:55

or like a tree recursive algo, each of has had to go and discover our own answers first before being able to come back with something useful

15:55

billymg: pest is necessarily a joint effort

15:56

rather difficult to test properly w/out multiple players

15:56

asciilifeform: yeah that's why i mentioned as good example of collaboration sin fuhrer

15:56

*

asciilifeform had hoped folx would offer vpatches to spec, esp. given as asciilifeform has vehehery limited cycles to work on subj. but even as it is, moving along

15:57

*

asciilifeform sadly hasn't the resources to do much 'fuhrering'

15:59

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089508 << fella born in '50s, watched the opening shots of usa collapse process in '90s. hence the flavour.

15:59

Logged on 2022-03-27 11:30:07 mangol: maybe something doesn't translate over to this side of the pond but i get the american conservative talk radio vibe from his floppy & site. the rush limbaugh type. not normal?

16:01

$ticker btc usd

16:01

busybot

Current BTC price in USD: $44900.67

16:03

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089520 << plans w/out resources tend to take, lol, ~inf. time.

↖ ↖

16:03

Logged on 2022-03-27 11:48:05 mangol: all of those plans will take a long time tho :-/

16:04

many things worth doing don't yield all that well to 'nights & weekends' approach

16:04

(and not even speaking of irons projects which require serious dough)

~ 53 minutes ~

16:58

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089429 << much better imho to stand up yer own copy of the logotron which gives yer preferred format ( atm not clear to asciilifeform for what you need json. ) or use the existing knob.

16:58

Logged on 2022-03-27 03:02:37 mangol: i.e. download http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/static/log_db.gz and turn into daily tab-separated-values files

16:58

Logged on 2022-03-27 11:13:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089440 << there's a raw-log knob, which yields up to 500 ln, e.g.

17:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089476 << asciilifeform aint much concerned w/ 'future versions of irc' as has 0 plans to use'em for anyffin. in fact plans to retire the dulapnet irc at some pt when pest 100% mature

17:00

Logged on 2022-03-27 04:22:20 mangol: the reason i chose JSON instead of sexp for this project is 1) it has a standard way to encode "dictionaries", aka "maps" or "objects"; 2) https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ - a great irc spec site - is already using it; it may be used in future version of irc protocol; 3) over9k ready made libraries; 4) most importantly, can hope to get other people to use it, so in the future i could download some logs

17:00

and fwiw on a pestnet erry participant station has complete logs 'for phree'

~ 34 minutes ~

17:35

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089537 << i'll keep archiving logs for chans that will stay on irc indefinitely - the lisp ones, maybe others

17:35

Logged on 2022-03-27 16:58:19 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089429 << much better imho to stand up yer own copy of the logotron which gives yer preferred format ( atm not clear to asciilifeform for what you need json. ) or use the existing knob.

17:35

Logged on 2022-03-27 03:02:37 mangol: i.e. download http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/static/log_db.gz and turn into daily tab-separated-values files

17:35

Logged on 2022-03-27 11:13:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089440 << there's a raw-log knob, which yields up to 500 ln, e.g.

17:35

wasn't aware of knob, will use for now, thanks!

17:36

log_db.gz isn't a standard feature of logotron?

17:37

*

mangol has a general interest in schemifying scripts, so could look into a irc/pest bot at some point but can't promise a timeline

17:37

mangol: nope, is cron job

17:40

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089533 << the worst thing is that resources don't always help. i've thought about getting lisp back on track a lot, and came to the conclusion that no amount of money will do it in <5yrs without botching up the technical apects

17:40

Logged on 2022-03-27 16:03:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089520 << plans w/out resources tend to take, lol, ~inf. time.

17:40

Logged on 2022-03-27 11:48:05 mangol: all of those plans will take a long time tho :-/

17:41

mangol: while you're archiving things, this will give you all the pubkeys deedbot knows. http://wot.deedbot.org/keys.asc

17:41

good design is just slow to do. i produce new stuff weekly, but it's a snail's pace.

17:42

can parallelize somewhat, but can't produce good insights faster - i'm at max speed

17:43

all the enthusiastic projects to do a lot of lisp work fast (racket being latest iteration) end up with impressively big stuff where individual technical details are high quality, but the contraption doesn't really fit together as a whole

17:44

clojure was similar. first-rate people, great work, but at that pace you cut corners re: "does system make sense as a whole?"

17:46

this is like some higher-level, grown-up version of CADT model where the coders are genuinely wizardly, but process has the same fundamental flaw

17:47

"let's throw away CL and make clojure" -> "let's throw away clojure and make racket" -> (to be continued)

17:48

Perlis: "Around computers it is difficult to find the correct unit of time to measure progress. Some cathedrals took a century to complete. Can you imagine the grandeur and scope of a program that would take as long?"

17:48

no cathedrals, only a succession of CADT-edrals

17:51

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089554 << thanks! that's a lot of keys! you can decode these to get cleartext email addresses, right?

17:51

Logged on 2022-03-27 17:41:06 signpost: mangol: while you're archiving things, this will give you all the pubkeys deedbot knows. http://wot.deedbot.org/keys.asc

17:56

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089551 << to be concrete, resources help in the elementary sense where somebody can actually keep project loaded into his head fulltime. beyond that -- not particularly

17:56

Logged on 2022-03-27 13:39:20 mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089533 << the worst thing is that resources don't always help. i've thought about getting lisp back on track a lot, and came to the conclusion that no amount of money will do it in <5yrs without botching up the technical apects

17:56

Logged on 2022-03-27 12:03:35 asciilifeform: many things worth doing don't yield all that well to 'nights & weekends' approach

17:57

mangol: yeah, whatever folks had in the key they imported to deedbot is there.

17:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089558 << asciilifeform was not the least bit impressed w/ subj, either the product or the people ftr

17:57

Logged on 2022-03-27 13:43:50 mangol: clojure was similar. first-rate people, great work, but at that pace you cut corners re: "does system make sense as a whole?"

18:00

mangol: to 'get on track', even e.g. asciilifeform + ice40k8 board could prolly do it in ~yr. but 'if wishes were horses'. hasn't a yr, or even a month, of continuous cycles, and aint aboutta

18:01

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089562 << era of napkin sketches of cathedrals. most of which turn out to be escherian on close look, lol

18:01

Logged on 2022-03-27 13:47:47 mangol: no cathedrals, only a succession of CADT-edrals

18:02

asciilifeform: largely agree with your criticism of clojure, but they come from corner-cutting and the standard pitfalls of "idea people" personalities.

18:02

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089557 << the contraptions fall apart because nobody dared to even try to get the proper foundation built.

18:02

Logged on 2022-03-27 13:42:55 mangol: all the enthusiastic projects to do a lot of lisp work fast (racket being latest iteration) end up with impressively big stuff where individual technical details are high quality, but the contraption doesn't really fit together as a whole

18:03

( see also e.g. )

18:04

have read that post

18:04

i disagree about where the problem lies. lisp is about language oriented programming. that's not "bottom up" or "top down" - means you can pick any convenient level of abstraction and start there

18:05

you can build up from atoms, but tons of useful stuff can be done simply by assuming the environment is conjured up by magic

18:06

mangol: ... and will end with the same garbage as prev. existed.

18:06

Logged on 2022-01-18 13:31:33 asciilifeform: it's sad but troo, well-behaved guism on existing os is in fact over9000x harder than e.g. writing a kernel and compiler.

18:06

Logged on 2022-02-24 16:26:41 asciilifeform: warned loong ago that the days of lin. kernel being buildable on sane gcc are numbered

18:06

unless you start at bottom.

18:06

because there is no 'magic'.

18:06

the existing env. is liquishit, and seeps through immediately.

18:07

see e.g. thrd.

18:07

Logged on 2020-07-03 19:27:09 asciilifeform: apparently such proggy can only be written if write 100% of graphics stack (incl. font renderer) from 0. as in e.g. emacs (before anyone asks, i ~specifically~ did not and still do not want this kinda thing as elisp progggy -- it'll 100% guaranteed choke on 200MB+ of indexable db.. )

18:08

ah, gui saga

18:09

i have similarly sordid experiences with the topic

18:09

grim fact, but is the reason erry single attempt at 'serious lisp' on pc went to exactly same place when anyone attempts to do serious i/o (vga, network, etc)

18:10

i suspect you're talking about lisp as in lambda calculus on a computer

18:10

to me, lisp is language oriented programming. source code is lists, you have lisp.

18:10

lambda calculus is incidental. it's generally the best thing since sliced bread, but also easily leads to wankery. there are places i wish people didn't assume it as a model

18:11

to asciilifeform , the sexpr aspect is only '1 part of balanced diet' of bolix-like machine complying with 7laws.

18:12

sure, hard to disagree with your goals. but we'll always be dealing with other kinds of machines too, and software for them

18:12

to me, the draw of language-oriented programming is general applicability

18:12

you can make a DSL that describes only what you need, and port it anywhere

18:13

mangol: is what the bedrock article was about. i.e. can you successfully keep the water outta yer submarine and actually abstract over the physical mechanisms, or do they leak.

18:13

i agree, but use an approach where there's a different bedrock for each thing designed

18:13

'port it anywhere' is the approach that gave us the extant garbage.

18:14

in practice, ~nuffin is actually portable in the sense claimed.

18:14

e.g. witness the titanic pile of #ifdef crud in ~any nontrivial unix proggy.

18:16

there's a pervasive culture of virtually no attention paid to reusability in the field

18:16

a large part of why is that we use programming languages where it's almost impossible to make a good DSL

18:17

folx use what's avail., a la 'junkyard wars'.

18:17

( oblignaggum )

18:26

yep. the attitude is easy to see in action around most programming languages

18:28

the scheme community is very good re: principled design. i've been trying to drag them in the direction of even fewer environmental dependencies

18:29

whole field since mid-'90s sums to various attempts to 'reach the moon by stacking chairs'.

18:29

that it doesn't matter what kind of chairs, remains unclear somehow to the participants.

18:29

to be fair, i don't think anybody knows how to build a software "cathedral" of the perlis kind

18:30

*

asciilifeform knows. and aint the only one

18:30

it isn't any kind of mystery.

18:31

There's a means to port software anywhere, but it requires focussing on the highest level only, and that requires there to be a suitable high level.

18:31

verisimilitude: the suitable ~low~ level is absent.

18:31

or did verisimilitude sleep through the gui thrds etc

18:31

One man can build a cathedral, mangol, because computers are meant to automate.

18:32

The suitable high level requires a suitable low level, yes.

18:32

for that matter, verisimilitude's experience recently w/ the unix ip stack oughta have taught sumthing

18:32

asciilifeform: what method do you suggest?

18:32

or rather, what foundation

18:32

mangol: asciilifeform has entire www re subj...

18:32

Oh trust me, when I release the library, which is effectively finished, it will be amusing.

18:33

i can't figure out how to build a cathedral from the ingredients in loper

18:33

sane iron, a la bolix; on the latter, sane os. adding up to 7laws compliance.

18:33

I'm working on the documentation now.

18:33

the key thing is to come up with a way to build software where complexity is not a problem. nobody has that.

18:33

Before building a cathedral, give the carpenter somewhere nice to live.

18:34

mangol: read the scheme-79 materials ?

18:34

not familiar with scheme-79, but suspect it deals with lambda calculus on a chip

18:34

entire machine, incl. cmos cad & tapout generator, represented by scheme proggy.

18:35

sounds really cool

18:35

I forget, was the garbage collector there in hardware, or represented as a Scheme program?

18:35

this was before peak bolix, too

18:35

verisimilitude: hardware -- represented by scheme proggy (compiled to gatelist on tapeout)

18:35

Alright.

18:35

but you're talking about foundations again

18:36

mangol: correct. asciilifeform is interested in sane foundations, thought this was 100% clear historically

18:36

sane foundations is how you actually build working airplane; as opposed to 'flap arms harder'

18:37

a cathedral is a really big, really long lasting building. software equivalent is big and complex, something like mathematica / wolfram alpha

18:37

Yes, the African Space Program.

18:37

nobody knows what foundations we should use to build systems so big

18:37

mangol: asciilifeform's position, informed by scheme79, bolix, etc. is that almost all of the apparent complexity is illusory

18:37

again with this 'nobody knows'

18:38

asciilifeform: see also alan kay's VPRI which tried (and succeeded to some extent) to minimize size of "desktop OS" implementation

18:38

or e.g. wirth's 'oberon'

18:39

yep. have emulated it, good stuff

18:39

but this is all 80s-90s

18:39

the closest to 'the bottom' these started, the moar interesting from asciilifeform's pov

18:39

It's simple, mangol: Correctly compose correct components.

18:39

mangol: from asciilifeform's pov, absolutely nuffin of any interest happened in system arch. since '90 or so

18:40

~all sums to attempts to speed up winblows

18:40

or linux, nowadays

18:40

well known that "systems research is dead"

18:40

The murderers keep saying that, yes.

18:40

^

18:41

i still don't believe people know what abstractions to build big, long-lived systems out of

18:41

as evidenced by myriad of incurable problems in applications today

18:41

We can attack the rotten foundations of computing in other ways, mangol. Consider Elision.

18:42

the 'incurable problems' come 100% outta 'stack chairs' approach.

18:42

I questioned representing all text as characters, and realized it was stupid.

18:42

but if you stack something else, how do you know it's not just the chair of the future?

18:42

By being right.

18:43

i think nobody's right at the moment

18:43

mangol: moreover, the entire economic underpinning of the field as it exists currently is based on studiously avoiding actual solutions to anything

18:43

(agriculturalsupremacy) 2020-02-27 asciilifeform: black holes that can absorb ~infinite effort and still suck -- sell. 'job-creating technology'(tm)(r).

18:44

sure, but there are millions of hobbyists who don't seem to have better ideas for future generations of systems

18:44

mangol: consider, as early as '70 cdc co was selling irons on which buffer overflow was impossible. (before bolix et al). today there are 0 commercially available. because, see, 'computer seekoority field' 'needs' to exist, and could not exist in anyffin like present form if such iron were avail.

18:44

buffer overflow is a comparatively trivial problem. bignums likewise

18:45

It's fundamental.

18:45

how do you structure big systems out of parts that are good to think with?

18:45

mangol: all of these problems were 'trivial' in the sense of having been 100% solved in '70s. then ended up 'unsolved', via mechanism described above.

18:45

sure, no dispute

18:46

but we're still talking about different things

18:46

e.g. non annoying approach to concurrency. have yet to hear of one

18:46

nobody knows what to do about concurrency

18:46

mangol: the bolix approach ~worked~. if carried out on current-day vlsi, would work over9000x. would dispute this in some concrete aspect, or simply pretending it 'unhappened' and doesn't merit discussion ?

18:46

closest i've seen is the synchronous programming guys

18:47

Implicit concurrency works well.

18:47

APL is one example.

18:48

asciilifeform: what's bolix?

18:48

the 'non-annoying approach to concurrency' is to implement entire machine as fpga fabric, and let independent processes actually run on physically independent circuits. but most of what people do w/ computer in practice doesn't require any serious degree of concurrency.

18:48

mangol: symbolics co.

18:51

the hardware part of concurrency can be worked out one way or another (challenging, but not conceptually)

18:52

the problem is we don't know how to think about concurrent stuff. those problems are not a good fit for the brain

18:52

the "reactive" and "synchronous" crowds have promising stuff, but not clear it can do everything

18:52

mangol: there's very little 'conceptually challenging' about it when you've proper foundations. here's an illustration of concurrent system with coupla dozen indep. parts where 0 possib. of deadlock or whatever von neumann ills.

18:54

naturally you won't have this on pc or similar von neumann tarpit where memory bottleneck.

18:54

is that Verilog code?

18:54

aha

18:55

subj

18:55

since describes circuits, basically is synchronous and reactive?

18:55

has both synchronous & asynchronous components

18:55

right

18:55

( the analogue entropy source aint clocked )

18:56

i know very little about electronics. is synchronous the norm?

18:56

in digital circuits? very much the norm

18:57

( most off-the-shelf components, e.g. rams, assume a central clock )

18:57

does async tend to be at the periphery (i.e. I/O)

18:57

typically

18:58

have you read about COSA?

18:58

mangol: mentioned this on my www on various occasions, but there in fact is a (1950s!) scheme for 100% async. logic, 'muller's gate'

18:58

read. fluff

18:58

fluff as in not enough specifics?

18:59

~0 concretes

18:59

i don't know if anyone from that project ever produced an implementation. last i heard, its author was thinking about AI

19:00

muller = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-element ?

19:05

(incidentally just came across these: [https://devzendo.github.io/parachute/][The Parachute Project

19:05

] and [https://github.com/devzendo/transputer-emulator][transputer-emulator

19:05

])

19:05

oops

19:05

emulator from 2019

~ 16 minutes ~

19:22

shinohai

What is a transputer, an AI that generates Codes-Of-Conducts ?

19:27

shinohai: lol, nope

19:27

Logged on 2022-03-01 19:14:37 asciilifeform: mats: whatever incidentally happened to 'transputer' ? entirely fine 'iron nn' arch of 1980s.

19:27

'80s connectionmachine-like thing.

19:27

mangol: c-element, aha

~ 47 minutes ~

20:15

https://www.ksat.com/news/texas/2022/03/26/in-defiance-of-attorney-general-ken-paxton-austin-isds-pride-week-marches-on/ << check out AISD grooming the youngins.

20:15

impressive.

~ 16 minutes ~

20:32

dpb

funny anagram

20:45

*

asciilifeform read at 1st 'aids' lol

~ 1 hours ~

21:46

... meanwhile cement testbed at 719+k. likely will sync some time in the wee hrs.

21:46

!w poll

21:46

Polling 15 nodes...

21:46

94.176.238.102:8333 : Could not connect!

21:46

205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.041s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729303

21:46

205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.056s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729303

21:46

71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.158s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303 (Operator: asciilifeform)

21:46

205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=729303 (Operator: whaack)

21:46

208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.343s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303 (Operator: asciilifeform)

21:46

54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.249s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.328s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect!

21:46

103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.539s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=729303

21:46

103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.494s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=385157 (Operator: whaack)

21:47

143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)

21:48

i.e. within 40days of kickoff.

21:48

!q seen cgra

21:48

cgra last seen here on 2022-02-28 12:26:43: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-27#1081208 << close enough to ponder whether finland's next, or what was going on again

21:49

!q seen whaack

21:49

whaack last seen here on 2022-03-21 12:11:46: !e view-height

21:50

loox like his going even faster

21:50

Logged on 2022-03-27 17:45:42 watchglass: 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.494s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=385157 (Operator: whaack)

21:50

t0 iirc

21:50

Logged on 2022-03-08 19:54:49 whaack: asciilifeform: plox to add 103.6.212.28 to watchglass

21:51

approx. timeline ftr.

21:52

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-27#1089746 << or hm maybe not. difficult to say

21:52

Logged on 2022-03-27 17:49:37 asciilifeform: loox like his going even faster

21:53

cementism does in fact work as printed on the tin; at no pt moar than coupla sec. b/w end of eating a block and start of next.

21:55

still oughta make cgra's suggested corrections before adding to flagship vtree.

21:55

his pt re 'The cement mode, and mining mode should be mutually exclusive' defo valid imho.

~ 19 minutes ~

22:14

asciilifeform: ftr would like to mention when I first heard about FPGAs and the ability to program hardware back in 2k20, a month or so before I actually ~read~ chunks of you blog with great intrigue. This was *exactly* what I thought of.

22:22

The basis would be the FPGA HDL conversion into new lisp fundamentals (lower than either cons or lambda). The core feature would be macros that write the hardware, all HDL code would be in an equiv. "BLOCK" statement. All the prev. features are preserved (homoiconicity, everything can be modified realtime, 7laws etc.) For sanity, hardware-defined code would be generated (for the most part) by macros. Then the lisp would have

22:22

to be bootstrapped onto hardware written in itself (the hard part).

22:29

Biggest roadblock would not just be dough, but having sane FGPA fundamentals; if you were to say use Xilinx over Alterra completely diff lang to interface with, resulting in a different core for the lisp.

22:30

You'd need direct access to FPGA and not the shitware chip(s) in-between.

22:31