Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-07-18 | 2021-07-20 →
00:00 asciilifeform 'Что русскому здорово, то немцу смерть!'(tm)(r)
00:01 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046403 << see also.
00:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:23:07 whaack: mats: If using bitcoin extinguishes bicoin then it's already dead in the water
00:01 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-17 19:02:50 asciilifeform: billymg: if it at any point even makes sense to discuss 'the fed of bitcoin' -- in any other light than you might discuss 'a 2 that is also a 3' -- the algo was broken. (and was always broken, then.)
00:02 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046409 << again with the 'viability', as if it were objective ?
00:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:31:54 mats: i lived through those events too, this isn't similar, it strikes at the fundamental viability of bitcoins
00:03 asciilifeform per asciilifeform , for instance, the way it is nao, encrusted with speculator barnacles liquidating at the drop of a hat, is not at all 'viable'.
00:03 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
00:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-11 15:09:36 asciilifeform: actual commerce, i.e. the kind where you MAKE things, sell'em, do actual services for people, it is -- punished -- by the volatility
00:03 signpost lemme rephrase then.
00:04 * asciilifeform still eating log, but no reason why to wait
00:04 signpost it may be the case already that bitcoin cannot exist without destroying the state, but if not, the liquidation of the segwit stash would make that the case.
00:04 signpost may or may not be mats' view.
00:05 asciilifeform signpost: asciilifeform's , ftr, pov re 'bitcoin and the reich'
00:05 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-16 22:06:03 asciilifeform: upstack, stratagem 'shoot erryone who so much as mentioned bitcoin' was 'the spoon is good at dinner time', i.e. was the 'thing to do' 7y ago. before the oligarchs bought in. (these generally do not appreciate attempts to make their holdings worthless)
00:05 asciilifeform (i.e. is actually well-integrated, as happens, with the reich, oddly enuff )
00:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046422 << 'dividing the skin of the bear while it's still alive'(tm). (go, generate the tx, see if gets mined? why not)
00:07 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:46:06 whaack: maybe 98% miner and 2% for yourself, i'm happy with 2% of 5mil+ coin
00:08 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046425 << the 1st (and afaik only) such 'showdown' was in '17, when mp contracted asciilifeform to liquidate coupla thou phorqcoins. (did not have the spectacular effect he expected on exch rate, it took coupla hundred similar people doing same thing to 'tank' it)
00:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:49:55 mats: in a showdown between trbcoin and segwitcoin, trb loses
00:09 asciilifeform somehow trb (if you will -- trb is evidently not the only trb-compat. client in use worldwide, tho who and with what else, remains mystery) 'not lost'.
00:10 punkman trb has nothing to lose in first place
00:10 asciilifeform was about to get to this, lol
00:11 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046430 << this oughta be direct q for mats : what aspects of current-day bitcoin are you 'married' to, in such a way that their demolition would be from your pov 'the end of' it ?
00:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:55:00 mats: the miners that inappropriately spend segwit coin see their transactions unwound, and if they can't cooperate to do that, maybe that's the end of btc
00:11 asciilifeform is it the log10(btc-usd) ? if loses zero, 'the end' ? 2 ? 3 ? 4 zeros ?
00:11 asciilifeform or which is it.
00:12 signpost if I can't buy anothing of significant value with the thing, what's it doing for me?
00:12 signpost *anything
00:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046431 << let all those in whom fear is induceable, get the fuck out.
00:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 14:57:20 mats: illiquidity induces fear like nothing else
00:12 signpost damned mac keyboard is falling apart.
00:13 asciilifeform signpost: depends what 'anything'. asciilifeform for instance will continue to offer hosting. (and if opens yet another shop, ditto there)
00:13 asciilifeform ... offer strictly for proper, classical btc.
00:13 asciilifeform and if it has to be cpu-mined on 20 old pentiums, then fuck, let it. like in the 'pizza' days.
00:14 asciilifeform it scales down to that, handily. imho was best at ~that~ scale, in fact. i.e. minus all the speculators, 'whales', misc. scum.
00:14 mats being upset with speculators makes about as much sense as being upset with buyers
00:15 asciilifeform mats: it aint about the flies, but about the shit that attracts'em.
00:15 mats or that water is wet
00:15 * signpost does not see the value of a network that can at best move around some subset of $21mil USD
00:15 asciilifeform mno, it aint 'he complains that water is wet', it's 'the pipe is gushing geiser of liquishit'
00:15 asciilifeform signpost: evidently the early btc users disagreed. saw.
00:15 asciilifeform 'what good is a baby?'(faraday)
00:16 mats if btcusd goes from $32,000 to $320, its dead, yeah
00:16 asciilifeform mats: care to expand ? or simply saying it's dead to mats
00:16 asciilifeform or alleging that asciilifeform will not be able to transact ? ( why not ? )
00:17 mats money relies on network effects, why would i want to use a deeply illiquid shitcoin?
00:17 signpost if it cycles between bubbles and busts forever, it's never getting out of being denominated by USD (or CNY, or whichever govt shitcoin)
00:17 asciilifeform or because for mats , the whole point of bitcoin is 'elevator to moon', and if it aint going to moon at the rate you like, then 'dead' and let's use some shitcoin with permissioned mining ? is that it ?
00:17 signpost which'd suggest to me that it's not the weapon satoshi tried to build.
00:18 signpost asciilifeform: no, meant to wrestle currency free of govt.
00:18 asciilifeform it aint clear to asciilifeform that shitoshi had any kinda plan or intelligent thought re 'ultimates'
00:18 asciilifeform whole thing consists solidly of happenstance, like a dog shit
00:19 mats the whitepaper is clear
00:19 asciilifeform clear about what ?
00:19 mats usd is being mismanaged, he proposed a solution
00:20 mats ok, not the paper, but his forum posts
00:20 mats and the genesis block
00:20 asciilifeform mats: not disputing that 'claimed solution'. but the proggy as it actually was written, nor the algo (where entirely failed to foresee centralization of mining) does not suggest elaborate planning
00:20 punkman when was first pool?
00:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046441 << it doesn't, lol, near as i can tell
00:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 15:42:25 whaack: shinohai: how does asciilifeform's piece relate?
00:21 asciilifeform punkman: good q. i recall already existing pools in '11
00:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046447 << possibly worth to think about why 'some other network' not already 'taken its place'
00:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 16:24:47 signpost: as mats says, draining the segwitcoins would extinguish bitcoin, and some other network would take its place.
00:22 signpost plenty of discussions in the past about satoshi potentially having an off-switch for bitcoin.
00:23 signpost why then would 5mil BTC suddenly in one hand not be another off-switch?
00:23 asciilifeform signpost: imho not off switch, but rather final exam.
00:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046457 << asciilifeform aint trolling when says that he would prefer that ALL Official exchanges were to die and not come back in any form whatsoever.
00:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 16:33:18 whaack: i admit that the infrastructure of a huge number of wallets and exchanges collapsing does not bode well
00:25 asciilifeform ideally bitcoin would be something you can only get in-wot, at all.
00:25 * asciilifeform has already treated it as this, from beginning
00:25 punkman pools being centralized, is not same as mining rig installations being centralized. seems to me there's big variety of people owning mining installations.
00:25 asciilifeform punkman: and all made at 1 (2?) fab
00:25 asciilifeform that's where centralized.
00:25 asciilifeform there's literally no industry on planet3 moar centralized than bleeding edge si fabbing
00:25 asciilifeform not even orbital launch
00:27 punkman seems main players are Bitmain, Whatsminer and Avalon
00:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046458 << the reason bitcoin 'returns to life' erry time it 'dies' , is imho this. it's the only 'built before the money morons stormed in' item, and this aint changeable.
00:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 16:33:27 signpost: that is utter nonsense. "bitcoin failed." is what will happen in that scenario.
00:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-10 20:07:12 trinque: that there is a buterin in the social system called ethereum
00:28 asciilifeform punkman: afaik there's exactly 1 player: tmsc.
00:29 asciilifeform i.e. if you want to thermonuke 'bitmain', 'whatsminer', 'avalon', in terms of hash %, you will need to build a new tmsc.
00:29 asciilifeform (and a pyongyang to do it in)
00:29 mats in tsmc news, the planned onshore us 5nm fab is being upsized 5x
00:30 signpost asciilifeform: re: there being no buterin in btc, if somebody controlled 5mil BTC, they'd be btcuterin
00:30 asciilifeform signpost: until his bluff is called
00:30 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046643 << ok, just to work out the details of this scenario. if this happened, in a hypothetical segwitocalypse fork, there would still be a 21M cap on freedom bitcoin, no? and freedom bitcoin holders wouldn't necessarily be any poorer right out of the gate either, as they have coins on both chains now...
00:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:16:18 mats: if btcusd goes from $32,000 to $320, its dead, yeah
00:30 shinohai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046660 <<< perhaps I misunderstood the context but wtf ever, rather tired of the btc wars.
00:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:21:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046441 << it doesn't, lol, near as i can tell
00:30 asciilifeform billymg: forkwar aint the only way to 'tank' exch rate
00:31 signpost maybe we get to find out. these are just the skryings of my butt.
00:31 asciilifeform signpost: my contention aint that 'go to sleep, be happy' , but that what to some is 'bitcoin is dead!' to others is 'finally alive'
00:31 mats whats the difference between this and atc, i don't get it
00:32 signpost this is indisputable, sure.
00:32 mats why aren't you using atc?
00:32 asciilifeform for it to be properly dead, would need a) fatal break in ecdsa b) there is no (b)
00:32 asciilifeform mats: because it wasn't first.
00:32 asciilifeform mats: do you understand what decentralization means ?
00:32 billymg asciilifeform: i guess even so, if exchange rate tanks, and 21M limit stays intact, and printolade continues to be printed (because of course it will be), then number eventually goes up again
00:33 asciilifeform billymg: as it always has previously. because there aint actually an alternative. (only buncha scamola-shitcoins, i.e. get-rich schemes centrally managed by ~someone~ in all cases)
00:33 * signpost brb
00:33 * billymg would swallow pride and work for SV company again just to get the opportunity to buy cheap coins again
00:33 mats is the network more or less centralized when the price and hash presumably fall two magnitudes?
00:34 asciilifeform actually i can think of a 'b', i.e. a way for bitcoin to die. if the proverbial 'provable satoshi' were to show, and start exerting 'autoritas' etc
00:34 asciilifeform mats: never falls for long.
00:35 mats hope i live long enough to see the outcome
00:35 * asciilifeform still trying to figure out what prompted this thread; doesn't look like anyone's invented 'the bomb' quite yet
00:36 asciilifeform or even demonstrated that it could exist.
00:37 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046708 << perhaps me saying segwit fork already happened
00:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:35:42 asciilifeform: still trying to figure out what prompted this thread; doesn't look like anyone's invented 'the bomb' quite yet
00:38 asciilifeform punkman: was speaking of the hypothetical 'segwit lift'
00:39 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046501 << to the extent there's even a 'battle' between 'trb' compat. and prbism , as such -- so far front has not moved an inch -- asciilifeform is still 100% able to send and receive traditional bitcoin. may be worth asking why this is so.
00:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 16:59:23 signpost: (which includes yes, pointing out every flaw in prb, but knowing the flaws doesn't mass the army to kill it)
00:39 asciilifeform ( why 'powerrangers' not succeeded in actually breaking the protocol ? it surely was not from lack of wanting to. or from lack of pile of usd with which to try. or lack of support from reich. why so far failed ? )
00:40 asciilifeform before anyone lolasks, wasn't 'mp's seekrit magick' either.
00:40 signpost entirely not the point.
00:40 * signpost is not interested in an item that cannot become relevant at a civilizational scale.
00:40 asciilifeform signpost: i suspect i may be missing the point ?
00:40 signpost I'm not ftr convinced it cannot.
00:40 asciilifeform signpost: is e.g. superconductor 'relevant at civilizational scale' ?
00:41 asciilifeform ( do you have one at home ? know anyone who does ? )
00:41 signpost that you do not care about the social systems around currencies is fine.
00:41 signpost but it is not the only view.
00:41 asciilifeform signpost: there's , i suspect, >1 view
00:42 signpost for sure, no harm there
00:42 asciilifeform folx do tend to dwell on 1 particular pov. and, seems to asciilifeform , normally depends on where they stand on the ladder
00:42 asciilifeform (e.g. 'pile of btc' deforms psyche in different way than... but i digress )
00:43 thimbronion whaack: I do
00:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046512 << the 'bang' of bioweapons is greatly exaggerated historically. 'unit 731' has ~0 impact on the war. worth to read about why.
00:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:05:03 punkman: garage-fabbed bio weapons is when things get interesting
00:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
00:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:06:32 signpost: wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
00:46 punkman I like the "bitcoin is cybercountry" view
00:46 punkman more than "cryptocurrency"
00:46 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046537 << the historical silk road made do with local (temporally and spatially) centers.
00:46 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:14:47 mats: centralisation is on a continuum, necessary for basic activities like meeting and making markets
00:47 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046538 << 'hey, i know what we were missing: a dowager empress' said afaik nobody anywhere
00:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:15:09 punkman: hanbot is possible only person with enough bitcoin to bootstrap a trb-coin
00:48 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
00:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:24:45 mats: if hanbot is reading, please to return jurov's money, some of us still want to fight you know
00:49 asciilifeform *just fine
00:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046551 << 2kW/24h costs ~4$ here, so no need to steal it, can simply host in asciilifeform's dc
00:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:31:45 punkman: find place that's not gonna notice extra 2-3kw, gets you like $30/day at current prices
00:50 asciilifeform tho still strikes asciilifeform as vehehery slim profit, considering the cost of the machine
00:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046559 << only if you have income denominated in something else, neh ? the debt doesn't get easier to repay, otherwise, simply because e.g. usd is 'sinking'
00:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:58:46 mats: its a great time to borrow fiat imo
00:52 punkman asciilifeform: sourcing machines, possibly importing/exporting is certainly the harder part. finding cheap power is easy
00:52 asciilifeform punkman: aha, is always the asics that is the controlled/monopolized part, not the mains current
00:54 punkman apparently you can mine with used, 4-year-old-generation machines, the supply of these could be way more predictable than expecting bitmain to ship latest-gen on time
00:55 punkman oilrig machines, also free power
00:55 asciilifeform punkman: a machine that you ~can get~, is by this token vastly superior to one that you simply cannot
00:55 asciilifeform even if n times less efficient
00:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046586 << this lol was promised a while back. i can picture hdd makers in a seekrit bunker, conferring, 'the gpu people had their day in the sun, now our turn to milk the morons'
00:56 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 19:42:12 punkman: https://www.chia.net/ Bram Cohen (bittorrent guy) finally launched his thing. Mining rigs are pile of HDDs, so when you stop mining, you still got pile of HDDs.
00:57 punkman thing says it has 30exabytes, not bad
00:57 punkman seems like it's the biggest hdd coin, and there's a handful of them
00:58 asciilifeform punkman: and see also.
00:58 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-28 13:08:51 asciilifeform: and in general all 'oddball algo by anon' are guilty until proven innocent of being elaborate smoke&mirror schemes for inflatola, premine, or even straight magic-key theft
00:58 asciilifeform there is elementarily no proof (nor expect one to be possible) that it actually ~requires~ that mass of hdd.
00:59 punkman I collected a few papers to read, but yeah I suspect shoddy proofs
00:59 asciilifeform the unfailing, per asciilifeform , algo re shitcoinism : take the most cynical fraud you can imagine to be possible with $subj. assume that it, x9000, is happening.
00:59 asciilifeform punkman: think, why would the perp even bother, if he did not have 'trump card' ?
01:00 asciilifeform erryone wants to 'be satoshi'. how to achieve this if not by somehow replaying history with $perp at 'the center'.
01:03 * asciilifeform will summarize re thread : worth to recall (was mpism?) 'bitcoin can be useful without being useful ~to you~', can be usable-without-being-usable-by-you, etc. and will continue to work as originally designed even if with 5 people.
01:03 asciilifeform and ftr asciilifeform aint ever, at any point or for any reason, 'moving' to a buterinized (i.e. with a detectable 'ruler' or equivalent) shitcoin.
01:04 punkman I don't think it's much useful with 5 people, or 21 with a million each
01:04 asciilifeform punkman: objectively was useful to the 5 people who, at one point, were the userbase.
01:04 asciilifeform if this does not include punkman -- is b/w him and odin strictly
01:04 punkman was not, it was interesting toy
01:04 asciilifeform is interesting toy to asciilifeform . today.
01:04 asciilifeform nothing more.
01:05 asciilifeform and this is because of the volatility.
01:07 asciilifeform the electro-hawala aspect aint going anywhere, and it is presently handicapped by the volatility.
01:07 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-15 22:50:48 asciilifeform: 1 btc has certain very useful properties that 1 usd does not .
01:09 asciilifeform anyways, imho if it in fact is possible to 'break bitcoin', the sooner it happens, the better.
01:09 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-16 22:18:33 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026447 << would like to emphasize -- imho if this is physically possible, then the sooner it takes place, the better. so can move on from the broken algo, to something else.
01:09 asciilifeform a broken algo that no one's concretely fucked yet, is still a broken algo.
01:09 * asciilifeform bbl.
~ 22 minutes ~
01:32 vex I don't understand anyonecanspend, is it possible to test with a few nodes?
~ 3 hours 17 minutes ~
04:50 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 I anticipate being able to critique it, asciilifeform.
04:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
04:51 mats http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << without going into more detail, speculative attack
04:51 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:48:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
04:55 mats i still don't understand how you can think that the hash won't also follow if the price takes a 100x dive. power generation costs money. and what happens to confirmation times should hash go to 0.001 exabytes / if btcusd goes to $1 ? how many months or decades will it take for diff to ratchet down?
04:59 mats and, the hash that gets turned off doesn't necessarily mean equipment is destroyed, it may be utilized for difficulty adjustment attacks, to do to btc what's been done to atc and others
05:05 mats i also don't understand how volatility will go down if btc goes back to being a 21mn usd item
05:11 mats pick a penny stock or altcoin in that neighborhood and look at the chart
05:14 asciilifeform mats: imho you've drawn an escherian staircase. in this hypothetical, bitcoin so cheap that scarcely any energy can be mustered for honest mining; but somehow lavish budgets for adjustment attacks ?
05:16 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046785 << absolutely nuffin that's happened to date re difficulty would take more time to undo than btc has existed, elementarily. (and in practice considerably shorter.)
05:16 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 00:55:04 mats: i still don't understand how you can think that the hash won't also follow if the price takes a 100x dive. power generation costs money. and what happens to confirmation times should hash go to 0.001 exabytes / if btcusd goes to $1 ? how many months or decades will it take for diff to ratchet down?
05:16 asciilifeform ('decades' is nonsense no matter how you cut it.)
05:17 asciilifeform mats: ... granted, asciilifeform's hypothetical of 'falls to $1' is similarly 'escherian', it is difficult to paint a convincing portrait of how it could happen (specifically 1$, not 0 as in 'ecdsa broken' etc)
05:17 * signpost about to knock off for the night, but observes something unsaid.
05:18 * asciilifeform also to bed shortly
05:18 signpost were there a son-of-trb that wasn't made of bubblegum and duct tape, and were there a path to that from present chain, I'd use, happily.
05:18 asciilifeform signpost: what means 'son of' here ?
05:19 asciilifeform sumthing's either trb-compat. or it aint, neh
05:19 asciilifeform and what'd mean 'path from present chain' , likewise ? either you're on ~the~ chain or you aint.
05:19 signpost there's plenty of dogshit still left if "cleaner-code-but-trb-compat"
05:19 asciilifeform cleaner -- sure
05:20 asciilifeform but i thought signpost's hypothetical was re a 'new bitcoin', 'trbi' , etc
05:20 asciilifeform by how was phrased
05:20 * asciilifeform to this day skeptical that such a thing could ever be perceived as anything other than -- or be anything other than -- 'some fuck trying to get rich'
05:20 signpost your view of money isn't mine.
05:21 * asciilifeform not prepared to agree or disagree, does not actually know precisely signpost's view of money
05:21 mats huh? say if 1 of 100 exahashes are left because the price craters and most no-one can mine +ev, how does that 1 find enough blocks to get to the adjustment in reasonable time? and then the next adjustment?
05:21 asciilifeform mats: you mine -ev.
05:22 asciilifeform like incidentally for past 11y.
05:22 asciilifeform mining is -ev, mats.
05:22 asciilifeform (unless w/ stolen current ~and~ asics somehow..)
05:23 signpost eh, there's a core disagreement and this ain't it.
05:23 asciilifeform signpost: what, in your pov, explains why not 1 shitcoin has been able to remotely approach exch rt. of btc ?
05:23 mats a lot of power was stranded at the margin in china, bitcoin mining was +ev
05:24 signpost asciilifeform: that line of questioning wont arrive at my destination either.
05:24 mats and still is afaict...
05:24 signpost lemme attempt a start from the top.
05:24 asciilifeform signpost: not pressing matter, don't let me keep you past bedtime
05:25 mats yeah, pick this up tomorrow, hands are bothering
05:25 asciilifeform signpost: you did pique my curiosity tho
05:25 signpost asciilifeform appears to not give a shit about the economic phenomenon bitcoin, and cares only that a particular protocol is operating among peers in a wot, presumably to perform w/e transactions between them
05:25 asciilifeform signpost: i must disagree
05:25 signpost I am unclear on how this tiny wot maintains even epsilon turkey-dollar value with which to whatever
05:25 asciilifeform simply, i preferred bitcoin as it was in 2010-11 to the present one.
05:25 signpost pls to explain the preference
05:26 signpost appears "would rather burn forest to remove bugs, and let grow back"
05:26 asciilifeform the chrematists weren't 'in' yet.
05:26 asciilifeform they ruin errything they touch, and the only defense against'em is to be small.
05:27 asciilifeform like e.g. irc was in 1989. linux in 1995. etc
05:27 signpost yep, so I understand you then.
05:27 asciilifeform if someone invents another defense -- i'ma be 1st to take an interest.
05:27 asciilifeform to date, sadly, only 1 known.
05:27 signpost those items were sustained by the excess of an economic (sham) machine that is apparently dying.
05:27 asciilifeform indeed so
05:28 * signpost doesn't know whether that's ragnarok or bottleneck, but it is the problem with which he's preoccupied.
05:29 signpost if both Bitcoin and the sham empire die together, so do we all, I imagine.
05:29 asciilifeform signpost: virtually 100% of asciilifeform's pov on the subj, to this very day is represented by his orig. piece. bitcoinism went 'wrong' when switched from being an experiment in decentralization, with eye to actual progress in that direction, to 'how to milk the morons' and inspiration for 9000+ intelligence-insulting pyramids
05:29 * signpost considers this something to fight.
05:29 signpost yep, perhaps so.
05:30 signpost but I consider us to be talking about the same thing now, so I'll wish y'all a good night.
05:30 asciilifeform asciilifeform likes 'fight' as much as anyone, but exhorts folx to think 'in what direction to fight'
05:30 * signpost nods
05:30 asciilifeform (this is lulzy ru meme, 'you're warring in the wrong direction!')
05:30 * asciilifeform must to bed.
05:30 asciilifeform goodnight signpost , mats , et al
~ 4 hours 14 minutes ~
09:45 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046786 << relevant: https://twitter.com/btcinchina/status/1415923704375123970
09:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 00:59:17 mats: and, the hash that gets turned off doesn't necessarily mean equipment is destroyed, it may be utilized for difficulty adjustment attacks, to do to btc what's been done to atc and others
09:50 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046807 << if miners still want to mine but stuck in difficulty-trap, I think only solution is difficulty-change-by-fiat
09:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 01:21:36 mats: huh? say if 1 of 100 exahashes are left because the price craters and most no-one can mine +ev, how does that 1 find enough blocks to get to the adjustment in reasonable time? and then the next adjustment?
09:54 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
09:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 01:29:34 asciilifeform: signpost: virtually 100% of asciilifeform's pov on the subj, to this very day is represented by his orig. piece. bitcoinism went 'wrong' when switched from being an experiment in decentralization, with eye to actual progress in that direction, to 'how to milk the morons' and inspiration for 9000+ intelligence-insulting pyramids
09:59 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046829 << http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-07-26#1690214
09:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 01:27:00 asciilifeform: like e.g. irc was in 1989. linux in 1995. etc
09:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-07-26 phf: relatedly to the other conversation, though i grew up on the same yarns as asciilifeform, i start to think that usenet was the original reddit, just the guys were smarter, perhaps even grownups. i posted on reddit at some point, and i want to believe that my comments were carefully constructed and detailed, but there were many reasons that we
10:01 punkman was on greek IRC in 1998, dunno how similar to US IRC in 1989, but there was nothing there, absolutely a reddit.
10:11 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046730 << didn't the japs kill plenty of chinks with plague? sure JP lost the war, so 731 didn't get to drop the plague on US. Is it that doing a bio-911 won't change the world, or that bio-911 can't happen?
10:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:44:20 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046512 << the 'bang' of bioweapons is greatly exaggerated historically. 'unit 731' has ~0 impact on the war. worth to read about why.
10:19 punkman https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << apparently yarchive.net is moldbug's brother's thing. and once upon a time was caught with pipe bomb. fun.
~ 1 hours 35 minutes ~
11:54 gregory4 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 << once this is done, I will try to be the first to implement it.
11:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
12:08 punkman https://bitriver.farm/en/why << kinda cool russian mining dc "we have gone a step farther by having an in-house repair center"
~ 37 minutes ~
12:46 gregory4 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << the police-sergeant mentioned, Paul Vance, was the spokesperson in the aftermath of Sandy Hook.
~ 17 minutes ~
13:03 punkman more context: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2003/10/08/law-school-bomb-suspect-allegedly-cleared/
13:15 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << I understand asciilifeform to consider the volatility a barrier to legitimate business growing within BTC.
13:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 05:54:08 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
13:15 signpost the question then would be whether the milking generates the volatility.
13:16 signpost certainly the use of extreme leverage on fiat-tronic exchanges contributes.
13:18 signpost there is also the plain fact that a limited and dwindling amount of BTC is created per 10min. if this is all bought up, exchange rates are going to spike wildly.
13:19 signpost if no one is buying, exchange rates are going to crash as miners dump to pay for electricity.
13:20 signpost the cycle of difficulty adjustments and block "drought" during these to consider.
13:22 signpost so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
13:23 signpost one might see this as the cost of bootstrapping a coin; one doesn't run the engine with the starter engaged forever, etc
13:25 signpost also, obviously I ignored buying and selling among existing holders above. that must also be considered, but was pointing out that there's a fundamental choke point where new BTC enters, and a fundamental selling pressure generated by mining.
13:26 * signpost still considers that were mining eradicated (somehow!), that system would be far superior.
13:34 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << the enemy doesn't fuck up the world with spare cycles after clocking out, with no disrespect to asciilifeform's works
13:34 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:48:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
13:36 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046765 << this approaches solipsism.
13:36 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 21:03:08 asciilifeform: will summarize re thread : worth to recall (was mpism?) 'bitcoin can be useful without being useful ~to you~', can be usable-without-being-usable-by-you, etc. and will continue to work as originally designed even if with 5 people.
13:38 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046734 << imho bitcoin cannot be this by itself; cypherpunkia is missing other fundamental structures
13:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:46:19 punkman: I like the "bitcoin is cybercountry" view
13:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:06:32 signpost: wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
~ 56 minutes ~
14:34 PeterL signpost: RE the decentralized WOT, with asciilifeform's idea of each person running an irc node and hooking a bot to it, how much work would it take to have multiple deedbot's talking to each other to update a wot database?
~ 33 minutes ~
15:07 punkman if I had a personal wot/deed-bot, I'd like: 1. Store list of public keys I'm interested in. 2. Have it watch/crawl various locations with various filtering rules for signed (or possibly unsigned) messages (ratings, deeds, other). 3. Present feed with new items and compile local database of ratings/deeds.
15:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046848 << the trouble with 'change by fiat' is that it creates a shitcoin.
15:22 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 05:50:09 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046807 << if miners still want to mine but stuck in difficulty-trap, I think only solution is difficulty-change-by-fiat
15:23 punkman what if the 5 people using it don't care about this "shitcoinness"
15:23 asciilifeform punkman: can do this even now, then!
15:23 asciilifeform that's the beauty, folx can do more or less whatever they like
15:24 asciilifeform asciilifeform for instance wouldn't mind if tx took 7d (1000x of current interval) instead of 10min, for whatever spell of time
15:25 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << imho cumulative history of bitcoinism is an excellent illustration of the 'why'. ~100% of the technical acumen has gone into finding ever new ways to defraud people, rather than solving the problems which factually exist from pov of honest user
15:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 05:54:08 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
15:25 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-28 13:08:51 asciilifeform: and in general all 'oddball algo by anon' are guilty until proven innocent of being elaborate smoke&mirror schemes for inflatola, premine, or even straight magic-key theft
15:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046855 << i'ma have to take punkman's word for this. but i suspect, punkman , that by 'reddit' you meant 'pit of inconsequential idlers', rather than the much darker actual meaning, 'centrally-herded idlers' of actual reddit -- this item was not perfected until 2000s
15:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 06:01:41 punkman: was on greek IRC in 1998, dunno how similar to US IRC in 1989, but there was nothing there, absolutely a reddit.
15:29 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046856 << very interesting subj (possibly more interesting to asciilifeform that other folx, because for a time worked in usg's 'peacewashed' hidden-in-plain-sight 'defensive' bugspray-for-humans program)
15:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 06:11:15 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046730 << didn't the japs kill plenty of chinks with plague? sure JP lost the war, so 731 didn't get to drop the plague on US. Is it that doing a bio-911 won't change the world, or that bio-911 can't happen?
15:32 asciilifeform punkman: there are several tricky bits in bioweapon . microbes/virii expensive to culture, to evaluate, to package in deployable format. and once 'fired', rapidly loses virulence (via neg. selection pressure; and, if you had made artificial changes to the organism, via other, less-understood mechanisms, these end up unraveling).
15:33 asciilifeform punkman: the other tricky bit is that the attractive, if you will , feature -- the contagion -- only worx when target is already concentrated and living in poor sanitation. against these, ordinary carpet bombing worx just the same, at a fraction of the cost and at ~0 danger to the wielder's own army.
15:35 asciilifeform punkman: afaik the 1 'promising' development at 731 (per ru sources, which had more or less whole docs somehow) was the trick of coating shrapnel balls in a microbial soup to guarantee septic wounds. but even this turned out not to be worth the cost. much cheaper to simply produce moar shells of the ordinary kind.
15:37 asciilifeform biowar is 1 of those 'sexy' ideas that is as old as plagues. will prolly keep coming back 4evah. but from a roi pov -- doesn't win.
15:38 punkman roi as in maximum bodies?
15:38 punkman but the win is in maximum terror
15:38 asciilifeform ( not to be confused with 'theatrical' biowar , as e.g. the 1 happening now, which -- for certain people, for certain values of 'win' -- does win )
15:38 PeterL roi = bodies per dollar spent
15:39 asciilifeform punkman: turns out , can make the terror w/out the expensive microbes and potential own goals
15:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046858 << aha, it was. btw prolly half the male population of usa could be connected with similar 'gunpowder plot' if 'needed' -- 'police searched, they found gunpowder somewhere and a pipe somewhere'
15:42 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 06:19:08 punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << apparently yarchive.net is moldbug's brother's thing. and once upon a time was caught with pipe bomb. fun.
15:42 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-10 asciilifeform: remember, this was the country where a man got 20 yrs for being found with a shoelace and a semiauto
15:42 asciilifeform punkman: in usg.jurisprudence, concept goes by name 'constructive possession'.
15:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046859 << why ty.
15:43 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 07:54:10 gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 << once this is done, I will try to be the first to implement it.
15:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046863 << pretty interesting; iirc not widely publicized at the time
15:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:03:24 punkman: more context: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2003/10/08/law-school-bomb-suspect-allegedly-cleared/
15:44 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046867 << it is asciilifeform's hypothesis that auto-liquidatable positions account for virtually all of it
15:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:16:43 signpost: certainly the use of extreme leverage on fiat-tronic exchanges contributes.
15:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046871 << the interesting bit re: these (and similar) charts of 'physical' network parameters, is that they do not afaik appear to have any correlation w/ price (at least such that could be visible to naked eye)
15:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:22:15 signpost: so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
15:46 asciilifeform i recall 'things will change! and maybe disastrously!' threads around at least the most recent 2 'reward halvings'
15:46 asciilifeform result : ~0 (far as asciilifeform could tell)
15:47 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046871 << not to let shitoshi off the hook, but afaik the volatility happens ~entirely where most trading happens -- in the world of paper coins. which exist more or less wholly separately from the actual net.
15:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:22:15 signpost: so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
15:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046873 << continuing above, it aint clear to asciilifeform that the supply of actual-coin has all that much to do with it, given the 'fractional reserve' nature of the extant goxes (and all the more so where 'leveraged')
15:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:25:17 signpost: also, obviously I ignored buying and selling among existing holders above. that must also be considered, but was pointing out that there's a fundamental choke point where new BTC enters, and a fundamental selling pressure generated by mining.
15:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046874 << while we're at it, who wouldn't also like an antigrav knapsack instead of the clatter, din, and flammable fuels of the airplane. only problem is, no one has yet discovered antigrav...
15:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:26:16 signpost: still considers that were mining eradicated (somehow!), that system would be far superior.
15:51 whaack asciilifeform: just because the fiat exchange rate doesn't change day of the havenings doesn't mean those havenings are not dreaded events by the enemy
15:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046875 << actually this'd be the '1 saving grace' -- the enemy consists of 'jobsworths' sluggishly doing their 9-5 thing. often enuff 1e7 times less efficient than even 1 'from interest'.
15:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:34:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << the enemy doesn't fuck up the world with spare cycles after clocking out, with no disrespect to asciilifeform's works
15:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
15:52 punkman morons exist, thus they must be milked. "but we could be solving factual problems of honest user" is not blocked by the morons or the milking. why do you think all that "technical acumen" would be working on the "factual" problems if there were less morons or less milking
15:52 asciilifeform whaack: it could be that i'm thick, but so far i have not witnessed afaik anything i'd consider to be convincing evidence for a macroscopic effect from a 'halving'
15:53 whaack asciilifeform: i dont think there's an easy way to prove it has an effect other than speculating
15:54 whaack i imagine that the USG has a pool of coins available to dump on the market and they restock that pool partly via mining
15:54 asciilifeform punkman: in 60s-80s ru -- space walks, venus probes, 'blue sky' researches that the 'civilized world' is ~still to this day~ parasitizing off. in '90s ru -- no moar of this. instead : 'MMM'. and yes it is my belief that they are mutually exclusive.
15:54 dulapbot Logged on 2021-05-21 20:27:36 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: e.g.
15:55 asciilifeform whaack: of course pool, is how they extinguish price when req'd.
15:56 whaack asciilifeform: yes i was thinking of your infograph when i typed the above
15:56 whaack so not hard to imagine that the mining input to that pool
15:56 whaack ...being cut in half could have a delayed effect
15:57 asciilifeform whaack: the lulzy bit is that it doesn't require in-house mining -- there are much cheaper ways of getting hold of the coins to be dumped
15:57 asciilifeform ( mining is the singularly most expensive method for getting hold of coin )
15:57 whaack right, it's just one of the various ways
15:57 punkman asciilifeform: could also say current ru elite (honest users?) are doing just fine and what do they care about MMM
15:58 asciilifeform the cheapest method, and one that doesn't even require shooting anyone, is to persuade 'weak hands' to do the dumping for you
15:59 asciilifeform punkman: empires with degenerate elites -- eventually conquered (and even prior to this, undergo complexity collapse.) in fact this very thing already happened in ru, the folx currently presiding over it are lizard viceroys
15:59 asciilifeform punkman: but sure, from an 'apres moi le deluge' pov , almost anywhere is 'doing fine' for ~someone~, lol
16:01 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046877 << i'ma have to disagree, given that imho it is exactly ~opposite~ of solipsism, to recognize that even when for you 'game over', for others -- carries on
16:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:36:22 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046765 << this approaches solipsism.
16:02 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046879 << easier to enumerate the precious little there is, than all that's missing..
16:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 09:38:29 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046734 << imho bitcoin cannot be this by itself; cypherpunkia is missing other fundamental structures
16:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046882 << imho this is a catstrophically misconceived framing. for one thing, irc protocol aint terraformable. for another, why wouldja need 'multiple deedbots' or even one, when you have pubkeys and signatures ? all you need is reliable message propagation.
16:04 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 10:34:49 PeterL: signpost: RE the decentralized WOT, with asciilifeform's idea of each person running an irc node and hooking a bot to it, how much work would it take to have multiple deedbot's talking to each other to update a wot database?
16:04 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-10 17:48:28 asciilifeform: ( likbez re subj. but factually is the algo behind the irc headache -- 'no, you may not have peerings a<->b + a<->c + b<->c ! one of these is redundant! fuck you')
16:04 punkman all empires "eventually conquered". you can find MMMs in all times and places, I don't think they are mutually exclusive with anything
16:05 asciilifeform punkman: it's a form of civilizational sepsis.
16:05 asciilifeform on the scale of mmm, can only happen in 'immunocompromised' population.
16:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046883 << why wouldja 'pull' in this application? it's more or less the clearest possible case for 'push'.
16:06 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 11:07:56 punkman: if I had a personal wot/deed-bot, I'd like: 1. Store list of public keys I'm interested in. 2. Have it watch/crawl various locations with various filtering rules for signed (or possibly unsigned) messages (ratings, deeds, other). 3. Present feed with new items and compile local database of ratings/deeds.
16:06 * asciilifeform eaten log; find interesting that folx so much more easily get excited about hypothetical problems than actual ones
16:06 asciilifeform incl. asciilifeform , not a 'saint' in this respect at all
16:11 punkman is it push or pull if it sits in alf-p2p channel and eats messages?
16:11 asciilifeform ah hm punkman so you're simply speaking of traditional deedbot ?
16:11 asciilifeform the kind that lives in irc chan
16:12 whaack asciilifeform: is idjits putting their coins in anyonecanspend addresses hypothetical problems?
16:13 punkman could eat from alf-p2p, irc, web, mailbox, according to your needs
16:13 punkman and no need to publish anything for anyone else
16:13 whaack and ftr i'm writing a proof of concept of "the bomb," will eventually publish the tool so anyone can use it
16:15 whaack it's easier than i originally anticipated, since apparently many segwit coins are not even hidden behind a p2sh
16:17 whaack original thought was that you had to have a process observing the mempool, waiting for a segwit user to spend the coin, so you knew the solution for x in h(x) = y, and then you could quickly try to double spend the txn with a higher fee or something
16:17 whaack (this is still true for many segwit addresses)
16:17 asciilifeform whaack: neato, will read
16:18 * asciilifeform sat down to do this at least 5 times to date, but always ended up interrupted, never got remotely close to finish line, lol
16:33 PeterL http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046951 << we have deedbot to display the wot, that's a single point of failure, wouldn't it be better to at least have it duplicated?
16:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 12:04:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046882 << imho this is a catstrophically misconceived framing. for one thing, irc protocol aint terraformable. for another, why wouldja need 'multiple deedbots' or even one, when you have pubkeys and signatures ? all you need is reliable message propagation.
16:33 asciilifeform PeterL: my argument is that there oughta be exactly as many 'deedbots' are there are users.
16:34 PeterL so that is my question, how amenable is the current deebot to becoming a one-per-user thing, and would there be an easy way for them to broadcast ratings?
16:35 asciilifeform PeterL: currently asciilifeform working on the broadcast part of this.
16:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
16:41 thimbronion asciilifeform: share a draft?
16:41 asciilifeform thimbronion: likely this wk
16:48 * thimbronion will read, ask a bunch of dumb q's, etc.
~ 46 minutes ~
17:35 punkman in other milkings: https://www.virtualdiningconcepts.com/about/ "concepts including MrBreast Burger, Mariah’s Cookies, Tyga Bites, Pauly D’s Subs"
17:36 punkman mariah's cookies!
17:43 asciilifeform punkman: lolwat, 'virtual food' ?
17:44 * asciilifeform recalls the tale of hajja nasreddin with the 'pay for food smell!' 'sure, will pay with sound of coins ringing'
17:45 whaack !e help
17:45 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
17:46 whaack !e push http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=piyY
17:46 trbexplorer code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
17:46 asciilifeform whaack: what does 'verify-all' do ?
17:48 whaack asciilifeform: argh that shouldnt actually be exposed to this api, it verifies that all the data in the b
17:48 whaack ...the blocks hash to their expected values
17:49 * whaack is using a new ergo keyboard, please excuse extra typos and accidental enter clicks
17:52 asciilifeform whaack: right, was thinking it wasn't meant for irc commandline
17:52 whaack asciilifeform: tyvm, i have a dumb design where i b
17:52 whaack ..blacklist commands instead of whitelisting them
17:53 asciilifeform a
17:53 asciilifeform whaack: chording kbd like verisimilitude's ?
17:56 whaack asciilifeform: nope, xbows keyboard https://x-bows.com/
17:56 whaack i forget which switches i got, but they feel fantastic
17:56 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046984 << i believe they're called "cloud kitchens" and they've been the hot new startupism trend for the past few years with the rise of delivery apps
17:56 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 13:43:37 asciilifeform: punkman: lolwat, 'virtual food' ?
17:56 asciilifeform whaack: interesting-looking , at the very least, item
17:57 * asciilifeform not historically fond of 'bent' kbds, but some folx very much luvv'em
17:57 whaack having shift and ctrl as thumb keys is a+++
17:57 asciilifeform billymg: a, so actual food? for a sec was thinking it was similar to the 'artwork shitcoin' thing
17:57 billymg essentially rent time/space in commercial kitchen, put logo on an uber eats listing, now you're a restaurant
17:57 asciilifeform lol!!
17:58 whaack !e help
17:58 trbexplorer whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-block, view-merkle-root, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
17:59 billymg this one might be a tweak on that idea, where existing established restaurants can launch "logo restaurants" on uber eats using their own kitchen
17:59 whaack !e verify-block 1337
17:59 trbexplorer transactions hash to merkle and block header hashes to block hash for block 1337
18:00 asciilifeform billymg: 'air merchants' never sleep, lol
18:00 asciilifeform see, exactly the kinda thing asciilifeform was talking about
18:00 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 11:25:49 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << imho cumulative history of bitcoinism is an excellent illustration of the 'why'. ~100% of the technical acumen has gone into finding ever new ways to defraud people, rather than solving the problems which factually exist from pov of honest user
18:00 whaack !e push http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=piyY
18:00 trbexplorer code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
18:01 billymg asciilifeform: every zoomer now doing "drop ship" business too. where buy plastic gadget from alibaba, then markup 20x and sell on instagram under trendy label
18:03 whaack billymg: nono they don't even risk the investment of buying the gadget
18:03 billymg exactly like shitcoins, all about creating a meme brand (wither food, gadget, or lotto ticket coin)
18:03 whaack they wait until they've
18:03 billymg whaack: exactly, they don't hold inventory
18:03 mats roi imo shouldnt be calculated in body count per dollar, but a more mercurial measure of will-to-fight stolen per dollar
18:03 whaack ^ exactly
18:04 asciilifeform mats: would need a direct line to god of war to measure, i suspect.
18:04 asciilifeform (consider vietnam)
18:05 mats remember the conversations about snipers / ieds goal to maim than kill
18:06 mats armies of invalids will still be sapping usg budget long after withdrawal
18:06 asciilifeform mats: worx esp. well against the overcivilized (who won't simply finish off own wounded)
18:12 whaack !e view-txn b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983
18:12 trbexplorer TXN OVERVIEW
18:12 trbexplorer txn_hash: b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983
18:12 trbexplorer block_height: 690611
18:12 trbexplorer txn_index: 1
18:12 trbexplorer size: 114
18:12 trbexplorer INPUTS
18:12 trbexplorer txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
18:12 trbexplorer out_index: 1
18:12 trbexplorer value_sats: 15128979
18:12 trbexplorer scriptsig:
18:12 trbexplorer OUTPUTS
18:12 trbexplorer address: 87cbd83d1431730d628a1b25577faf8e1ea33f900114a9
18:12 trbexplorer value_sats: 2943880
18:13 trbexplorer address: 7106379bb6c60edd732e2b2618f58a85152646831400
18:13 trbexplorer value_sats: 12155417
18:14 whaack !e push 0100000001836919e353a0e871ea46cb4868767fd73643a529a78906775be53e8b4e37c2b90100000000ffffffff01f92bb900000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac00000000
18:14 trbexplorer code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
18:15 asciilifeform oh hm, interesting
18:15 asciilifeform whaack: is this a 'the bomb' demo ?
18:16 whaack possibly i have misconstructed the 'bomb' but atm trb seems to reject it
18:16 whaack first rejection was because the txn i was trying to snag was spent in the meantime
18:16 whaack asciilifeform: yes
18:16 asciilifeform nifty.
18:16 asciilifeform i'd expect these gotta be fired automatically tho, to work in time
18:16 asciilifeform (supposing there were a miner who's willing to eat)
18:17 whaack asciilifeform: it appears that is not the case http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046968
18:17 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 12:15:48 whaack: it's easier than i originally anticipated, since apparently many segwit coins are not even hidden behind a p2sh
18:17 asciilifeform oh hm
18:18 whaack the automatic ones are on the todo list still
18:19 asciilifeform if hash were rentable 'by the pound', would be quite straightforward to pull this off
18:19 * asciilifeform would pitch in to fund
18:20 whaack so you pay a couple million to mine a block that snags 100k segwit coins?
18:21 whaack or something like that?
18:21 asciilifeform whaack: i'd expect 1 block would not suffice
18:21 asciilifeform gotta have, say, 100
18:21 asciilifeform so that impractical to unroll.
18:27 asciilifeform whaack: the second shot of this hypothetical 'double tap' would be to, in the event of an ethertard 'we get it back! because reasons!' idjitfork, to market dump the whole yield on the enemy's prong of the fork. but perhaps this is obv.
18:27 asciilifeform *ethertard-style
18:27 asciilifeform ^ how to do this -- 'exercise for the reader'
18:28 * asciilifeform realizes that ^ as-stated is impossible, lol
18:29 asciilifeform eh, at any rate, 'first -- find a chicken'.
18:29 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-04-23 asciilifeform: i was once taught 'gypsy recipe for chicken' - '1) first, find a chicken'
18:31 whaack asciilifeform: the idea is to dump bitcoin holdings on the segwit 'thats not faiiiiir' fork while keeping actual bitcoin safe
18:31 asciilifeform whaack: i admit , wonder whether you could induce 'the bomb' to be mined by including a heroic tx fee (e.g. 100% !) in one
18:31 asciilifeform whaack: right, but it'll only work with pre-fork holdings.
18:31 whaack first step is to get trb to actually accept this transaction
18:31 asciilifeform aha
18:32 whaack it could be a situation where trb is willing to validate this transaction but not willing to broadcast it
18:32 asciilifeform tho not essential, only need miner to accept. how to get it there -- brute force suffices, transmit to erry node from billymg's scan until..
18:32 asciilifeform (supposing can be made edible by anyffin at all)
18:32 whaack heathen block explorers are rejecting this transaction with 'no witness data' error or some such
18:32 asciilifeform i'd expect.
18:32 whaack as i expected them to
~ 19 minutes ~
18:52 whaack !e view-raw-txn 249000 1
18:52 trbexplorer 010000000126ab486178d477625f8db451993d4b86a27169c4cf3953c269a668ceb6ea57a6010000008a4730440220339a4272813da58b3c7f59b610e6a72ed9806a970c9cb727ea9374c6f6d2a39e022050616548e49133d2c8cf90194a955160bbb390e7ce43a97ee17221a60f352a3e014104bfe077fe02078cd29681bb6a48fb395305f7412b4571bb0ae9429a0cd3a18d6a4f8654d6b22b3940cdef15ab5fa61cf43a1903d3ee82223de84558ca88c73756ffffffff0251d24a26130000001976a914d6c0d248859a2e3c6c94c434f10f40165e23ca
19:06 whaack !e push http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=BAzt
19:07 trbexplorer code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
19:20 whaack !e height
19:20 trbexplorer 690611
19:25 whaack !w probe 205.134.172.28
19:25 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=691763
19:27 whaack !e height
19:27 trbexplorer 690640
19:32 whaack !e height
19:32 trbexplorer 690681
19:33 whaack this is just anecdotal data, bclicking through heathen blockexplorers, i notice that the "spent" link is active way more often when its next to a segwit address
19:33 whaack but clicking*
19:36 whaack !e height
19:36 trbexplorer 690703
19:36 whaack !e view-txn 41bbeb0ba4378cef4043f0a411861ef2fca947ba0420bf42a7c3b03de0af1f73
19:36 trbexplorer Transaction not found.
~ 16 minutes ~
19:53 whaack !e view-txn a2e7124c3041578530e37388e8e358579722dcd6c387c5eefda1133c4fd4614a
19:53 trbexplorer http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=wohk 1 of 1
19:57 whaack !e push 01000000014a61d44f3c13a1fdeec587c3d6dc22975758e3e88873e330855741304c12e7a20000000000ffffffff0270281200000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac70281200000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac00000000
19:57 trbexplorer txid 8a5385db0d79f61964047eb73801fb5d052f2dda6da4213120982c59434080d4
19:57 whaack alright, bomb planted
20:00 thimbronion whaack: terrorist!
20:06 whaack looks like it's going to sit dormant
20:20 asciilifeform oh hey
20:21 asciilifeform whaack: what was the reason trb wouldn't eat ? ( and what's in this nuke, exactly ? )
20:30 whaack asciilifeform: trb wouldn't eat the txn because there's actually a minimum transaction length that was not met because i didnt supply any data for the signature
20:31 asciilifeform ah hm so needed nop padding ?
20:31 * asciilifeform vaguely recalls this from the 'sha puzzle tx' incident
20:32 whaack asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0315 is the offending line. I just added another output to solve the problem
20:33 whaack brb 20 mins, food
20:33 asciilifeform a, neato
20:33 * asciilifeform updated logger to colour trbexplorer correctly.
20:43 asciilifeform !w poll
20:43 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
20:43 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
20:43 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.021s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
20:43 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
20:43 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.137s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691754
20:43 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.078s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772 (Operator: asciilifeform)
20:43 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.088s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=691772 (Operator: whaack)
20:43 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.160s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.256s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.294s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.333s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=412062 (Operator: jurov)
20:43 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.334s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.585s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691770
20:43 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.855s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
20:43 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.471s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772 (Operator: asciilifeform)
20:48 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1047118 << in working on mine at one point went through historical logs and made fairly comprehensive list of bots: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=0zgO
20:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-19 16:33:54 asciilifeform: updated logger to colour trbexplorer correctly.
20:48 billymg no guarantees that they're all there though
20:49 asciilifeform billymg: oglafbot wasn't a bot, lol
20:49 billymg lol
20:49 billymg it looked like a bot
20:49 asciilifeform billymg: was BB putting on bot mask for certain occasions iirc
20:50 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere oglafbot
20:50 dulapbot oglafbot last seen in #trilema on 2019-05-24 08:33:47: https://www.oglaf.com/glindr/
20:50 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere pokarBot
20:50 dulapbot pokarBot last seen in #trilema on 2018-03-10 16:02:03: *shinohai Dealt! shinohai #1
20:50 asciilifeform ^ was missing from asciilifeform's config
20:50 asciilifeform possibly others also, will look later
20:50 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=from%3Aoglafbot&chan=all << looked botlike at first
20:51 asciilifeform aha
20:51 billymg but i guess there are a few messages that would indicate human
20:51 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere feedbot
20:51 dulapbot feedbot last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-06-13 15:29:01: http://thetarpit.org/2021/summer-in-the-postmodern-soviets << The Tar Pit -- Summer in the postmodern Soviets
20:51 asciilifeform ^ RIP ?
20:52 asciilifeform possibly perished in the fleanode meltdown
20:53 asciilifeform or author simply went.
20:53 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere spyked
20:53 dulapbot spyked last seen in #asciilifeform on 2020-06-18 10:08:47: asciilifeform, danke. fixed and answered: http://thetarpit.org/2020/a-cursory-look-at-the-infamous-trb-wedge-bug#comment-353
20:55 asciilifeform !q uptime
20:55 dulapbot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 33d 17h 52m
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
22:05 whaack when I run getmemorypool on my bitcoind my bomb is no where to be found
22:05 whaack sciilieform: any clue why this may be? or anyone else know how trb
22:05 whaack ...trb's memory pool works?
~ 48 minutes ~
22:53 thestringpuller signpost: been reading about chainlink and oracle reputation - still trying to grok methodology of "verifying facts" when oracles publish external as part of service agreement. still probably need to read teh whitepaper more thoroughly, but the 100 pages or so isn't what I would call "light reading"
22:53 thestringpuller re: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043502
22:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 15:52:11 signpost: thestringpuller: see e.g. "chainlink" for other gropes at the problem, how to connect on-chain smart contracts with real world events
23:04 punkman thestringpuller: see here https://twitter.com/ercwl/status/1366899834272305153 https://ercwl.medium.com/whats-wrong-with-the-chainlink-2-0-whitepaper-for-simpletons-d50f27049464
23:16 vex whaack, why not test on local fork? mine yourself
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