asciilifeform: (normally it idles in #a on fleanode, but iirc planned to move here)
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: 10x
raw_avocado: Is there a place where all the blogposts / resources of TRB are centralised on ope place?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: http://therealbitcoin.org is the traditional place. for older stuff, in particular, the ml. errything else -- in the logs.
raw_avocado: Yes, but i noticed diffrent people did diffrent things on their blogs, like whaack posted earlier, was hoping for all of these to be in one place
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: the #a and #trb logs, + the linked www, has pointers to ~100% of trb-related material. imho jurov oughta bring back the ml, would be ideal, made much easier to follow the subj in the past.
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: there's also phf's patch viewer for the early stuff, but catastrophically outta date.
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: Gotcha, ill dig around then. 10x
shinohai: Haven't heard from jurov (or anyone) since I got fleanode #therealbitcoin back. Just thought it might be nice to keep on off chance someone capable finds it through those channels.
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere jurov
dulapbot: jurov last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-07-02 12:26:27: i read about mp yesterday, then said to myself stop procrastinating and check back
asciilifeform: shinohai: ty for keeping it parked. i'ma log the fleanode chans for so long as the thing worx and aint spammed entirely to death
asciilifeform: (but not longer)
shinohai: I figured may as well save it before random troll from kiwi went in and convinced staff to register it.
signpost: raw_avocado: haven't moved deedbot here yet. who are you btw?
raw_avocado: signpost: Just some d00d that used to lurk on and off back in the day and now after hearing about MP decided to dive in
signpost: for now just idle around here. deedbot was pretty specific to freenode's nickserv, hasn't been tweaked to run here yet.
raw_avocado: Gotcha. I just wanted to play around with the WoT, not sure why there is none of these on Twitter yet
raw_avocado: Yes, i did also on https://serajewelks.bitcoin-otc.com/trustgraph.php and btcalpha worx on archieve.is
raw_avocado: The gribble bot is also down on #b-a
signpost: note that "joining the wot" doesn't really do anything. the point is the relationships. the wot's just a denotation.
signpost: deedbot's up in pm btw now.
signpost: feel free to send it a !!help
signpost: I'll have it join here when I figure out why it isn't.
raw_avocado: Yes yes, no shame in the walk of shame . . .
signpost: ... not sure what the fuck you're talking about.
signpost: hah, oh right.
raw_avocado: I can seem to DM it on this server
signpost: yep, should work, might not
raw_avocado: works, i registered my pubkey. 10 bruv
raw_avocado: signpost: can you please try to rate me?
shinohai: tyvm signpost
shinohai: but signpost how do nick ratings vs for example your "new" nick vs old ?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047743 << cheat sheet re how to connect bots. lemme know if doesn't trivially map to yours.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 21:30:00 signpost: for now just idle around here. deedbot was pretty specific to freenode's nickserv, hasn't been tweaked to run here yet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-16 13:46:57 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-16#1039439 << i had to commit this kludge warcrime to get the bot to talk to 'unreal irc'.
asciilifeform: signpost: alternatively we can swap 'rat' in place of this thing and make a 'double star' thing, which is not what asciilifeform wanted but still over9000x better than a 1-box net
asciilifeform: (then can plug bot into your own instance)
asciilifeform: in either case fleanode-style login will have to be patched, it exists only there.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047748 << very important point, for noobs -- gotta actually cultivate relationships, or 'being in wot' does 0
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 21:34:26 signpost: note that "joining the wot" doesn't really do anything. the point is the relationships. the wot's just a denotation.
shinohai: bingoboingo: reading above I think it's a rehash of what I said earlier: Writing may very well be the key to regaining mental fortitude.
signpost: raw_avocado, I don't know you bud, so no.
signpost: asciilifeform: yeah, on freenode I used the message from NickServ re: successful auth to trigger join
signpost: happy to go ahead and swap in rat and build the driftwood flotilla if you are.
signpost: I will be in and out next few days.
signpost: shinohai: my old ratings are there; I'll likely update them in time.
signpost: bingoboingo: I could say I wish you well, but the only thing that works is you willing that.
signpost: fuck the republic. as asciilifeform points out, if the algo breaks it was always broken.
signpost: (and for the record, I do wish ya well)
punkman: I think whatever you say in such situations, always ends up at a kind of "pull yourself up by yer bootstraps". Psychoanalysts are the worst, all this dwelling on the past, no good can possibly come of it.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047771 << writing, painting, exercise, business. anything that steals time from the self-pity.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 23:00:24 shinohai: bingoboingo: reading above I think it's a rehash of what I said earlier: Writing may very well be the key to regaining mental fortitude.
punkman: bingoboingo: vaguely remember you had some interest in pharmacology, here's a couple distractions for ya https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507265/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884225/
adlai: was there some sort of freenode nuke-and-reformatting while I was away?
adlai: channel creation dates are all 15th of June, ops vanished from channels, etc
adlai encounters 'dulapnet' keyword in logs; reads.
asciilifeform: adlai: welcome to dulapnet !
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047784 << a usg stooge was set up in the role of a 'demented millionaire' to 'buy' and then wreck ye olde fleanode. in parallel with this, the puppeteers set up a
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 06:21:55 adlai: was there some sort of freenode nuke-and-reformatting while I was away?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-19 15:45:22 trinque: anyway check out this lul https://imperialfamily.com
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-19 15:53:16 asciilifeform: 'A contract in which christel, former head of staff, allegedly sold freenode, surfaced. And while I personally think that this would have neither included any servers or code or user data, since that did not belong to christel to sell, I am not a lawyer and apparently some of our volunteers got pressured very hard and their personal life could have been ruined easily should we have fought
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-19 15:51:39 asciilifeform: 'We are founding a new network with the same goals and ambitions: libera.chat.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-16 13:47:50 shinohai: asciilifeform was right about libera being sjw's I'm already klined for posting pr0n
asciilifeform: adlai: supposedly 'every' popular chan from fleanode, ended up in that mousetrap.
shinohai: #lisp went over to libera, I believe verisimilitude said the Ada chan did too.
asciilifeform: linux, gcc, etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-29 15:52:24 asciilifeform: imho more or less standard 'good cop / bad cop' theatre; objective was from the start to corral all remaining ircism (in particular as pertains to opensores) in a properly usg.managed shithole. (ye olde fleanode, evidently, was still too heterogeneous and difficult to properly sjw-police.)
asciilifeform: near as asciilifeform can tell, plan succeeded 100%.
asciilifeform: well, 100% - epsilon, asciilifeform won't be caught dead in that shithole.
asciilifeform: adlai: presently there's a parallel log bot ( and asciilifeform ) in the smoking crater which remains from fleanode. dunno for how long -- it destroyed my channel and bot regs, regularly disconnects, and appears mostly depopulated. when snsabot can no longer reliably log the old chans, i'ma tune out of fleanode for good.
asciilifeform: adlai: dulapnet lives in iron belonging to asciilifeform personally. there's a plan to decentralize properly, but bogged down in software headaches.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 13:38:53 asciilifeform: cgra: apparently irc has this subtle braindamage baked in at algo level. and is, evidently, why all the great irc nets eventually not only schismed, but acrimoniously schismed and turned into palace-reichs and eventually burn down
asciilifeform: that's about it.
shinohai: In today's internet breakage: https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/least-24000-websites-down-dns-issues-arise
thimbronion: muh dns.
gregory4: as Mr Popescu once said, there is no reason for DNS to be built into the C Standard Library.
gregory4: DNS should have been implemented as a single, self-contained executable like any other utility.
gregory4: speaking of which, it saddens me how neither UNIX nor Linux ever quite solved the problem of IPC.
gregory4: otherwise, people would not even consider accursed systems such as "dbus."
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047808 << I never quite understood, is Tyler Durden a single person or the name of a team?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 12:52:29 shinohai: In today's internet breakage: https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/least-24000-websites-down-dns-issues-arise
shinohai: gregory4 your guess good as mine re: Durden
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047804 << how do you determine the maximum size of your UDP packets? I have seen inconsistent numbers such as 500, 508, 510, 520...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 11:22:30 asciilifeform: adlai: dulapnet lives in iron belonging to asciilifeform personally. there's a plan to decentralize properly, but bogged down in software headaches.
asciilifeform: gregory4: 508
gregory4: asciilifeform: and how do you know that?
gregory4: does that figure come from some book?
asciilifeform: gregory4: gives total packet size of 576 ( 60 byte ip header, 8 byte udp header ) which is the trad. MTU.
asciilifeform: 'Every internet destination must be able to receive a datagram of 576 octets either in one piece or in fragments to be reassembled.
asciilifeform: gregory4: 508 is actually plenty of room, as you'll see when i post the draft; in my current scheme, gives 320byte for message (and this does not include handle, timestamp, and other params)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047814 << almost certainly 'a bourbaki'. orig. name is from c. palahniuk's b00k 'fight club'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 13:16:22 gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047808 << I never quite understood, is Tyler Durden a single person or the name of a team?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047810 << dns is simply evil. and Must Die.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 13:03:10 gregory4: as Mr Popescu once said, there is no reason for DNS to be built into the C Standard Library.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:39:17 asciilifeform: i do not necessarily laugh at the misfortune of others, until & unless they are operating a 'palace', i.e. artificially imposed dependence on central machine.
asciilifeform: wb bingoboingo
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047556 << in my experience, trouble starts to arise around block 300k
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 16:24:24 raw_avocado: whaack: haha. Im running it on a pretty low ass machine. I did not notice it gets stuck, when i checked the debug every now and then. Will pay more attention and run the script if so.
whaack wonders what constitutes a "low ass" machine
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-20 12:26:09 asciilifeform: ftr both of asciilifeform's noades are on boxes the size of a fist, circa '12
whaack: complete bare minimum for a trb node, afaik, is 500 GB SSD and 4GB of RAM
asciilifeform: ( it aint about the cpu; or ram, so long as >2GB; see thrd )
asciilifeform: 500 is if you've got nuffin else on it, and even this'll fill up in 2-3y from nao
whaack: ^ yes
asciilifeform: can calculate trivially.
whaack: asciilifeform: how do you know how much RAM trb uses? experimentally?
asciilifeform: ^ see linked pics
whaack: asciilifeform: nice, ty
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047770 << errybody gets own personal hell. asciilifeform for instance had a++ childhood, but his remaining life consists of e.g. this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 22:47:50 bingoboingo: http://bingology.net/2021/how-therapy-re-fucked-my-head-short-form/
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 20:59:41 asciilifeform: working for coupla days nao on a draft of the p2p algo. but nowhere near done yet, it is getting tiny scraps of time left over from gruntwork
asciilifeform: bingoboingo: dunno if helps, but when depressed, consider -- you made it outta the prison of doing things one hates for 14h/day. most folx don't get even halfway to this.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform certainly doesn't expect to.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 13:49:10 billymg: asciilifeform: i'm forever interested in coming up with something that somehow satisfies both of these: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040055 <> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-19#1040103
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047608 << mp himself was, underneath the masks, a rather standard 'what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine' [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039825][megalomaniacal
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-21 17:56:13 bingoboingo: I've yet to find people outside the late Republic fighting socialists that aren't just different socialists
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:19:30 asciilifeform: (why ? because he was gunning for a reich, not decentralized-anything)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:11:48 asciilifeform: don't tell me that you think 'bitcoin finance' actually exists. it does not exist. may have briefly, somewhere, existed, and may exist in the future, but afaik currently there's only two known kinds -- mpex-style, where anarchic but 'we'll take yer money, haha, moron, for trusting' and 'kyc' -- i.e. reich's attempts to
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:17:46 asciilifeform: thimbronion, PeterL : the other thing was his megalomania -- very much did not like 'little network for self & associates' but only schemes where 'put whole planet under the yoke one day! thousandyearreich!!!' etc
asciilifeform: socialist]. when you grasp this, bingoboingo , i suspect will reduce the level of chaos in your head
asciilifeform: for literally entire remainder of his life, mp worked to turn errything he claimed to have stood for, to shit. dunno how to put this more clearly.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-03-25 17:23:22 asciilifeform: ftr i do not believe for a moment in 'mp is outta biz'. he's very much in biz, working double time to poison all of the remaining wells, set folx against one another, make sure the earth properly salted so that republic (the only kind possible -- the kind w/out mp, the kind 'with' is called a reich) is properly down, and his theses 'properly confirmed'
asciilifeform: bingoboingo: i still wonder how you were able to so easily forget that he had sent you to the orcistan and then promptly marooned you there, for instance.
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-11-08 20:47:04 asciilifeform: piz was orig mp's 'b.isp'. which was doomed as-designed, because of poor choice of geography ( 2000+ $ / mo rack+net pipe; ruinously fascist customs regime ) . asciilifeform and mod6 purchased its corpse and attempted salvage, as 'pizarro'.
asciilifeform: suppose mod6 & asciilifeform hadn't bought 'b.isp' ?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-02-16 asciilifeform: it so happens that asciilifeform has purchased a 50% stake in bisp. and specifically with one condition: that mircea_popescu (named, concretely) will not be a back-seat driver there.
asciilifeform: ^ pretty epic naivete, btw, on asciilifeform's part, who thought could 'fix' it, but lacking the capital to move it (and to where?) , much less the ability to transform the thing into what it oughta have been from the start, rather than an all-eggs-basket
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-08 12:17:49 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: asciilifeform opposed the 'all eggs in one basket' approach, was in favour of 'many cheap machines spread geographically'. but mp wanted 'meat work'
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047856 << from personal experience I can relate that this can be disorienting and destabilizing. Currently turned self in temporarily.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 14:54:13 asciilifeform: bingoboingo: dunno if helps, but when depressed, consider -- you made it outta the prison of doing things one hates for 14h/day. most folx don't get even halfway to this.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: elaborate ?
signpost considers most depression self-inflicted.
signpost: when one realizes that (not his actual, fleshy meatsack self, but) his *idea of self* is a perpetual inner, narrated autobiography, can be set free of this nonsense.
signpost: can say something else, can say nothing at all, whatever is liked.
signpost: and if *you* can't, this is the first step towards freedom, to recognize the voice in your head as proceeding from your will.
signpost: (consider also that for most, it proceeds from someone else's)
signpost: or as heidegger translates ... parmenides (?) "it is useful, the laying out and taking to heart that being is."
signpost: nothing mystical or illogical about it. what is declared, you are.
signpost has considered these topics for some time, but the experience with the cult imho proved beyond doubt.
signpost: (and I would do it again. coherent group narrative however short-lived is immensely powerful)
signpost: 100% agree on all points.
signpost: even on the first, as initiation rites have always existed.
signpost: dangerous if fetishized and folks never exit the state.
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-20#1047370 <-- I had not, but I will.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-20 21:12:34 signpost: whaack: segwit's pretty buried in the chain atm. have you considered pissing on "taproot" instead?
whaack: Although I wonder if I'll have to make some segwit-but-not-taproot compliant txn, which would take some extra work studying prb.
whaack: raw_avocado: howdy
raw_avocado: whaack: what up
raw_avocado: whaack: ive been paying a bit more attention to the TRB node since i read your blog post, seems to be doing fine with getting blocks, just a bit slow, but did not stop
whaack: what block # are you on?
raw_avocado: 270k ish, did some napkin math if i keep it up like this i should be done like in 4 days, i think.
whaack: raw_avocado: the first 270k blocks is probably 3%-10% of the sync
whaack: there's more activity later in the chain
whaack: plus as the db, utxo set, etc. gets bigger everyting starts to take more time
raw_avocado: Well, whats the last power ranger client that stores the blockchain like TRB, as i m sure that will sync in like idk a week or so . . .
whaack: not sure, i recently looked at their github, they have tens of thousands of commits and hundreds or maybe thousands of developers on their, it is chaos and impossible to know what happens and when
raw_avocado: Yeah who would ever want so much man power on a big project? :)
raw_avocado: I do remember some gents being of the opinion that Bitcoin is to easy to use, so i am sure you consider the big # of devs and comits a bad thing
whaack: it could very well be just a couple of guys with extra accounts to make it look like a "team"
raw_avocado: You are very right, but for this conversation the volume of code outputed is relevant, not by whom was made
whaack: right. the problem is that there is no attempt to make the changelog comprehensible, and instead an active attempt to make it obfuscated
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047772 << then say that you dont know me and i asked you to rate me.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 00:14:17 signpost: raw_avocado, I don't know you bud, so no.
whaack: raw_avocado: if you just want to test the rating system then why not just make another key and rate yourself
raw_avocado: I guess this criticism is what started V(i am still trying to wrap my head around that, btw)?
raw_avocado: That is a good point, i ll prolly do that.
signpost: why would you want a rating from some rando on the internet?
signpost: (you're not getting one)
raw_avocado: I just want to fit in, haha
raw_avocado: whaack: thanks, i think i read all of them at least once, regarding 1st link from cascadian hacker, its broken, might want to update it with https://archive.is/pRfAz
whaack: thx, i noticed that esthlos's blog is down as well
shinohai: raw_avocado: 17:33 deedbot <unencrypted>: shinohai rated raw_avocado 1 << v/trb student, twitter stuff
raw_avocado: shinohai: 10x bud.
raw_avocado: whaack: while on the topic, i also have this link that i though might be useful
raw_avocado: http://ossasepia.com/2018/11/13/v-with-vtools-keccak-hashes-and-its-own-tree/ http://ossasepia.com/2018/11/13/v-with-vtools-keccak-hashes-and-its-own-tree/ http://ossasepia.com/2019/11/10/v-tree-and-v-starter-v2/ http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/ http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=vtools&search= http://btc.info.gf/devel/lisp/esthlos-v/patches/ http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/13/a-walk-among-the-trees-of-v/
raw_avocado: At least for a n00b like me.
whaack: thx, i may add these shortly as well
raw_avocado: I think 1 or 2 you already have. You cant seem to do shift+enter for /n in this client
whaack: i'm not sure that irc allows newlines in messages
shinohai: In weechat
shinohai: can newline
whaack: looks like that is just being translated into 2 messages
whaack: !e height
shinohai: whaack: yeah pretty much just splits it into 2+ messages
busybot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 32281.35 USD
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047838 << 500GB SSD 10GB RAM9prolly over kill)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 14:34:40 whaack: wonders what constitutes a "low ass" machine
whaack: as asciilifeform pointed out, that is indeed a small SSD
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047894 << https://transactionfee.info/charts/transactions-spending-segwit/ people want that discount yo(that comes at the expense of the network).
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 16:57:54 dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-20 21:12:34 signpost: whaack: segwit's pretty buried in the chain atm. have you considered pissing on "taproot" instead?
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047895 is taproot not SegWit++?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 16:59:51 whaack: Although I wonder if I'll have to make some segwit-but-not-taproot compliant txn, which would take some extra work studying prb.
whaack: I don't think people "want" the txn fee discount. They just don't know any better and jump along the bandwagon.
raw_avocado: There is a lot of virtue signaling( on twitter specially) re addrs format
raw_avocado: whaack: after reading http://ztkfg.com/2021/07/warning-bitcoins-stored-in-segwit-addresses-are-not-safe/ i have a few thins that are not clear regarding a drainage scenario
raw_avocado: I also noticed that you used the word miners when reffering to who enforces the nodes.
whaack: raw_avocado: what is unclear?
raw_avocado: But if miners lets say decide to run TRB and "steal" SegWit coins, dont see how the other node will consider that to be valid? And unless they are SPV then what matters is the longes-valid pow chain, no?
raw_avocado: So if they go forwards with this they will be forked off the network
raw_avocado: Also fi the attack dosent go through they miss on guaranteeed revenue from mining the segwit TXs and getting payed.
whaack: raw_avocado: correct, other nodes are not going to consider the trb chain as valid
raw_avocado: Is this not one of those irrational attacks that require the miner to mine at a loss like empty block attack and such?
whaack: raw_avocado: it's not clear that it is irrational for the miner to do so, they also get the huge number of btc stored in the segwit addresses
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047954 << so then why would anyone that has considerable economic activity(like exchanges and other services) ever run TRB as by running TRB they will make less money as they want to serve everyone when they recieve money, no?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:24:51 whaack: raw_avocado: correct, other nodes are not going to consider the trb chain as valid
whaack: however you are right that this move by the miners may be a form of sawing off the branch they're standing on, which is why they have not performed it (yet)
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047956 << but thats a risk that they have to take. And i also suspect you would have to have close to 50% of hash power in order to cause disruption on the network(via TXs not getting into blocks) in order to maybe convience other users to jump on TRB?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:26:14 whaack: raw_avocado: it's not clear that it is irrational for the miner to do so, they also get the huge number of btc stored in the segwit addresses
whaack: if segwit forks off then there's an opportunity to close one's bitcoin position while keeping trb coins
raw_avocado: Can you describe a scenario on why and how this would happen?
whaack: what is "this" exactly?
raw_avocado: s0z re: if segwit forks off then there's an opportunity to close one's bitcoin position while keeping trb coins
whaack: how it happens: 51%+ of the hashing power goes back to trb, whose chain has txns where miners are taking from the segwit piggy and thus does not enforce segwit rules, so segwit continues on a separate chain
whaack: hypothetical trb whale has all his coins in UTXO A. UTXO A exists on both trb chain and segwit chain. He makes 2 txns which are conflicting, sending the coins to addresss B and sending the same coins to address C. He broadcasts 1 txn to the trb miners and the other to the segwit miners.
whaack: now the trb whale has isolated his bitcoins on both chains, he sells on the segwit chain and keeps his bitcoins on the trb chain.
whaack: it's important to note, however, that if the segwit chain ever becomes the longest chain again, then the segwit and trb chain become the same chain and trb goes through a potentially large reorganization
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-02-16#1784318 << I wonder if asciilifeform realized, at the time, what a huge insult this was
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-02-16 asciilifeform: it so happens that asciilifeform has purchased a 50% stake in bisp. and specifically with one condition: that mircea_popescu (named, concretely) will not be a back-seat driver there.
whaack: because while trb chains are not necessarily vaild segwit chains, segwit chains are necessarily valid trb chains (at least in theory)
raw_avocado: But in the scenario where you have 51% of hash power going full TRB, you also need nodes that will validate those blocks, or else its just miners running a miner chain, am i missing something?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047970 << reading old logs, asciilifeform gets impression that his interaction w/ mp, from day1, was simply 1 unbroken string of insults
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:36:17 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2018-02-16#1784318 << I wonder if asciilifeform realized, at the time, what a huge insult this was
raw_avocado: Re validity you mean that the trb nodes only stores 1mb of data and the other segregate stuff is garbage?
whaack: raw_avocado: correct, and it seems that this chan and maybe a couple of other people who simply have forgotten old versions of bitcoin on their comps are the only ones running trb compatible nodes
raw_avocado: Yeah, there are like 7 nodes, and 2 are asciilifeform's i think :P
raw_avocado: From where my understanding is now(may change) is that in order for this catastrophic steal SegWit thing to hapen there are a lot of &s and some very strong asumptions were made.
raw_avocado: But here i am syncing TRB :)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047973 << nodes sadly aint playing characters, and anyone can make as many of'em as he likes
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:37:14 raw_avocado: But in the scenario where you have 51% of hash power going full TRB, you also need nodes that will validate those blocks, or else its just miners running a miner chain, am i missing something?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-03-01 asciilifeform: what are ~all~ of the places where A has the ecstasy, but B does the laundry, where A!=B
whaack: there could still be economic powerhouses that, while not actively maintaing nodes, are on the side of trb, and would dump on a segwit fork, but this is fantasy wishful thinking
whaack: the miners also will get absurd number of coins *only* on the trb chain, which they may dump on the market
whaack: what is "&s" ?
punkman: which market is this market they will dump previously-known-as-segwit-coin on?
raw_avocado: re & there are a lot more things that need to happen simultanously, i was trying to say | ANDs
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047985 << why do you suppose this did not happen in the '17 phorkwarz?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:42:01 whaack: the miners also will get absurd number of coins *only* on the trb chain, which they may dump on the market
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:39:56 asciilifeform: ( why 'powerrangers' not succeeded in actually breaking the protocol ? it surely was not from lack of wanting to. or from lack of pile of usd with which to try. or lack of support from reich. why so far failed ? )
whaack: asciilifeform: i've been meditating on this myself
asciilifeform: hypothesis may or may not 100% predict the future; but it ~must~ 'predict' the past 100%.
punkman: there was in fact a fork where people dumped coin, it's called Bitcoin Cash
whaack: punkman: this is another point to consider, there is no infrastructure in place for a trb-segwit exchange
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047984 << i am sure there is a lot of economic activity hiding behind TRB, but thats not enough, you still need to convience the other nodes that SegWit bad :P
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 18:41:27 whaack: there could still be economic powerhouses that, while not actively maintaing nodes, are on the side of trb, and would dump on a segwit fork, but this is fantasy wishful thinking
asciilifeform: punkman: correct. and notice that it wasn't trb that got dumped. worth asking -- wainot, 'even though prb-fork was Promising Moar Tx!1111'
raw_avocado: punkman: seems like the longes valid proof of work chain won, i would say
punkman: there was no trb fork
whaack: btw, does anyone know if the 'segregated' witness data gets hashed anywhere in prb blocks? i.e. in the inputs to coinbase txns or something?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: this definitionally happens within 1 network.
asciilifeform: punkman: erry fork has 2(or more) prongs.
punkman: yes, one side prb, other side bitcoin cash
punkman: trb doesn't even come into the picture
whaack: asciilifeform and punkman: a key difference with bitcoin cash and this hypothetical segwit fork is the segwit chain is a valid trb chain while the bch chain is not a valid trb chain
asciilifeform: punkman: 'trb' here aint the particular proggy, but the orig. chain.
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: you are right, the winner won to say so.
asciilifeform: whaack: the hypothetical fucked-segwit chain aint a valid segwit chain tho.
asciilifeform: hence the hypothetical fork.
asciilifeform: atm there aint a fork, there.
raw_avocado: Well yeah, as the more restrictive one is the segwith chain, bot trb.
punkman: asciilifeform: so must admit that hypothetical fucked-segwit chain is Bitcoin Cash 2: Electric Boogaloo
whaack: but anytime the non-fucked segwit chain takes the lead in POW the fork dissapears
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform was suggesting, is that to model 'who wins, elephant or whale?'(tm) in this hypothetical, it is worth to ask why there's still (despite plenty of derpage) a contiguous chain from '09
raw_avocado: whaack: and dont the nodes say whos in the lead?
whaack: in other words, it's more economically dangerous for trb users to dump on the segwit chain than it was for them to dump on the bitcoin cash chain
asciilifeform: (what asciilifeform refers to as 'trb' chain)
punkman: trb is basically a partly-SPV node
whaack: punkman: in the eyes of segwit users, yes
punkman: if the miners do a segwit-lift, might as well do a satoshi-old-coinbase-lift, or mp-lift or whatever
whaack: asciilifeform: do you have an answer to this question your posing? is this some sort of exercise for the reader?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: nodes are cheap and don't 'decide' much of anything in a conflict -- any party can set up 1e7 nodes of whatever type it wants
whaack: you're* posing
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: its not about nodes its about nodes weghted with economic activity, if i understand corectly.
asciilifeform: whaack: all i have is the observation that miners -- near as can be told w/ naked eye from this distance -- 'don't want the boat rocked' if can be avoided at all.
asciilifeform: what they want, is 'quiet'.
raw_avocado: As i understand i enforce rulles with my node when i accept TX, is that correct?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: noad x can reject a tx, noad y somewhere else will accept
punkman: raw_avocado: you are enforcing nothing if you are not a miner
asciilifeform: so long as the tx originator is able to get it to the mine -- he's golden
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: re you are enforcing nothing if you are not a miner sounds very counter to how i thought Bitcoin worx
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: you may be in for some unpleasant surprises.
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: i am trying to dig into the code, but i have not wrote a line of code since collage(10 years ago), so i might be a while while i will make references to specific chunks of code
punkman: raw_avocado out here learning how sausage is actually made
raw_avocado: Today is when i made my 1st TX by hand, i am a very big n00b
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: bitcoin (nor shitcoins) aint magic, does not change how life works, rich -- are still rich, and decide ~errything
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: i read the article a long time ago, but will have to reread
whaack: well atleast having made a txn by hand puts you in a group of probably 5,000-10,000 people
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: miners, in turn, don't 'decide' in the sense many folx imagine, they operate at the edge of profitability and have 'overbred' and difficulty-pushed each other to the point where they are at the mercy of miniscule fluctuations in btc/fiatola exch rate
raw_avocado: punkman: shit you right son
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: i do understand they are fighting with variance and then the equation is btc_earned*price / cost
punkman: asciilifeform: I think you are imagining this "mercy of miniscule fluctuations". Maybe for the smallest outfits, clowns buying "cloud hashing" and such
raw_avocado: But then again those blocks still have to be deemed valid by nodes, so thats why my reasoning(demed broken by you) is still that miners are the bitches of the ndoes
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: they are rather like e.g. the pesants of old italy -- where it didn't matter that there's 3 harvests in a year, they simply breed until starving again
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: IRC, is your stance not mining is a bug or smthing?
asciilifeform: punkman: may apply moar to shitcoin miners than traditional ones -- the sudden bursts of surplus gpu do suggest bankruptcies
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 11:50:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046874 << while we're at it, who wouldn't also like an antigrav knapsack instead of the clatter, din, and flammable fuels of the airplane. only problem is, no one has yet discovered antigrav...
punkman: asciilifeform: especially if you factor in "free" electricity, hardware bought on credit, etc, I bet the miners are feeling pretty good at $30k
asciilifeform: punkman: with free-errything, i'd imagine these would 'feel great' at $1 also
asciilifeform: but for those for whom not-free -- not as great
punkman: most of those who were at "mercy of fluctuation", folded long ago
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1047853 << hey that is good to hear.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 14:53:10 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-21#1047770 << errybody gets own personal hell. asciilifeform for instance had a++ childhood, but his remaining life consists of e.g. this.
gregory4: I mean, the fact that you had a good childhood.
asciilifeform: punkman: as i understand, it's an ecology, old -- die, new -- born, etc
asciilifeform: gregory4: lolk
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: idk seems like a fair deal, you provide a hash smaller than targer , that respects this work, you get payed, everyone happy. kids get their skag, elon adds bitcoin on balance sheet , everyone is happy
gregory4: I was under the impression that for most second gen. Americans, childhood was the worst part of life.
punkman: this obsession with childhood, also sort of an American thing
asciilifeform: gregory4: i'm '1 gen' , so possibly outta date.
raw_avocado: punkman: crying over things is an American thing
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048064 << I consider children who obtained citizenship without taking the Oath (because of parents' naturalization) to be second gen.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:06:04 asciilifeform: gregory4: i'm '1 gen' , so possibly outta date.
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048065 << Americans invented crying? really?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:06:08 raw_avocado: punkman: crying over things is an American thing
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048061 << rec. reading re 'what is fair deal'. not necessarily to imply that it aint one, simply that you do not necessarily know whether 'deal' is +ev before taking it; nor necessarily able to get out 'on a dime' immed. if realized it was -ev
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:05:03 raw_avocado: asciilifeform: idk seems like a fair deal, you provide a hash smaller than targer , that respects this work, you get payed, everyone happy. kids get their skag, elon adds bitcoin on balance sheet , everyone is happy
asciilifeform: btc/shitc mining is rather moar like e.g. gladiatorial combat, or for that matter many similar walks of life, than 'fair deal, erryone happy'(lol) -- winner, yes, will see 'it was fair deal'; the corpses -- silent.
asciilifeform: ( if someone suggests to you that he is offering 'deal where erryone is happy' -- run, not walk, away, from the scamola, cuz these dun exist for fundamental thermodynamic reasons )
punkman: asciilifeform: btw found that thing about "optimal deal" http://trilema.com/2012/this-marriage-thing/#footnote_1_44053
punkman: apparently from paul graham
asciilifeform: punkman: in actuality comes from the classical algo for solving 'stable marriage problem'
gregory4: https://sar.network/read/journey-to-the-west << in case "asciilifeform" is interested in situation concerning Chinese immigration.
asciilifeform: gregory4: you dun need to put handles in quotes (if you gotta for some internal reason, i dun care tho)
gregory4: asciilifeform: if you don't mind me asking, did you grow up in one of ethnic Russian neighborhood?
asciilifeform: gregory4: nope
asciilifeform: gregory4: grew up in (mostly self-imposed) cultural isolation until got decent net connection.
gregory4: I heard the other day that NYC apparently has over 600k ethnic Russians, or something like that.
asciilifeform: gregory4: re the chinese folx -- will read (i've a good picture of the 19th c. migrants, but not 20th, there)
asciilifeform: gregory4: it did at least at 1 time. brooklyn. street signs, book shops manned by sad old men, etc
asciilifeform: went there 20y ago, just 2wk before '9-11'(tm)(r)(c)
asciilifeform: i expect most died of old age nao.
asciilifeform: (their children -- mostly monolingual 'palace of weights and measures'-grade of ameritard, sjw, harvard aspirant, etc.)
asciilifeform: 'As described above, large numbers of Chinese parents are manipulating and exploiting their children as anchors. The parents often discourage their children from learning Chinese because it may jeopardize their mission to serve as the parents’ anchor. ' << fwiw e.g. kurt vonnegut felt same way about his father (german)
asciilifeform: 'he took my germany away' or how did he put it.
asciilifeform: i'm getting a very strong vibe of this from author of linked piece.
asciilifeform: 'Our society was founded in early 2018 to provide assistance to those individuals wishing to return to the Mainland of China. Our material is largely aimed at second-generation American citizens of Chinese descent. ' << a++
asciilifeform: gregory4: at least china still ~exists~ for you to come back to.
asciilifeform wishes gregory4 a safe return to his home, supposing he has not yet
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048078 << sorry, I have an engrained habit of strongly distinguishing between common and proper nouns.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:15:40 asciilifeform: gregory4: you dun need to put handles in quotes (if you gotta for some internal reason, i dun care tho)
asciilifeform: gregory4: it doesn't bother me, but i could not resist to ask wai
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048093 << thanks for your kind words.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:23:02 asciilifeform: wishes gregory4 a safe return to his home, supposing he has not yet
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048096 << I also disagree with mainstream (style-guides) over whether certain nouns should be considered proper.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:23:37 asciilifeform: gregory4: it doesn't bother me, but i could not resist to ask wai
asciilifeform: gregory4: asciilifeform's home was destroyed , and then also forced to live with the people who destroyed it. this gives certain pov.
gregory4: for instance, I insist that Facism, Communism, Republicanism, etc. are proper nouns, and find it strange seeing those words in lowercase.
asciilifeform: gregory4: not even all eurolangs agree on these.
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048101 << I will certainly miss aspects of Soviet education and engineering.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:24:53 asciilifeform: gregory4: asciilifeform's home was destroyed , and then also forced to live with the people who destroyed it. this gives certain pov.
gregory4: I really enjoyed those articles by Dmitry Orlov explaining how Soviet manufacturing had been superior.
punkman: any language other than german has "Communism"?
punkman: I mean euro-language
asciilifeform: gregory4: wasn't speaking of the cultural exports, but of whole civilization. it's dead. picture, by analogy, if china were to surrender and 30y later it'd be a kind of alabama
gregory4: I see what you mean, yea.
raw_avocado: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048073 << everyone thats deserves to be happy is happy. over all the system wox as designed as far as i am concerned
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:11:30 asciilifeform: ( if someone suggests to you that he is offering 'deal where erryone is happy' -- run, not walk, away, from the scamola, cuz these dun exist for fundamental thermodynamic reasons )
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-22#1048088 << I hadn't known that about Vonnegut. nice...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:20:30 asciilifeform: 'As described above, large numbers of Chinese parents are manipulating and exploiting their children as anchors. The parents often discourage their children from learning Chinese because it may jeopardize their mission to serve as the parents’ anchor. ' << fwiw e.g. kurt vonnegut felt same way about his father (german)
raw_avocado: re the article asciilifeformyou are describing the you wanted this dynamic and the scaming yourself dinamic
gregory4: Heisman pointed out the ultimate irony of Germans immigrating to the United States in early 20th c. for freedom and then having their children drafted to fight in WW2.
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: is the page not found the point you are trying to make, or that just happened with no intention?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: where not found ?
gregory4: maybe it is blocked for non-American IPs.
raw_avocado: %5D%5Bin was the issue
asciilifeform: hm raw_avocado where'dya get that one ? the log link also works
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:33:39 asciilifeform: raw_avocado: in point of fact, ~everything~ works-as-designed in this sense.
raw_avocado: asciilifeform: idk thats how it poped in by broser, wonder why?
asciilifeform: raw_avocado: outta curiosity, what browser ? it's mutilating the pg , in a way nobody's reported previously
raw_avocado: Its chrome.
gregory4: here is Wayback Machine link: https://web.archive.org/web/20120710010300/http://niquette.com/paul/issue/softwr02.htm
raw_avocado: When i clicked from there it added that to the back asciilifeform: raw_avocado: in point of fact, ~everything~ works-as-designed in this sense.
gregory4: I remember this page. it was referenced in asciilifeform's article which went something like "software cannot be meaningfully repaired only replaced"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-22 19:32:31 raw_avocado: re the article asciilifeformyou are describing the you wanted this dynamic and the scaming yourself dinamic
gregory4: Paul Niquette's exposition reminds me of Rand's quote: n any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.
gregory4: a quote from the article: One handy software engineering tool is the 'debugger,' which is a misnomer tantamount to calling a 'magnifying glass' an 'insecticide.'