Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-10-30 | 2022-11-01 →
06:13 unpx For what I've seen it implies the existance of a group like structure on which is hard to compute discrete log... so it comes to mind either bignums diffie hellman like or elliptic curves...
06:22 unpx Massey–Omura Cryptosystem it was, but require bignums
~ 47 minutes ~
07:09 unpx Back on problem 7 the only hint is here
~ 2 hours 3 minutes ~
09:12 billymg << >>
09:12 bitbot (trilema) 2018-08-23 asciilifeform: if history's any guide, they're still in the 'first we'll try and starve the judenschwein, make'em unemployable, then they'll sell their gold to good aryans on their own power' stage of the algo
~ 54 minutes ~
10:07 asciilifeform billymg: see also.
10:07 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-15 asciilifeform: ... from reich pov, plebes having savings is a bug, similarly to resistive losses in electric cable. 'pieces of yacht that got diverted'
10:09 asciilifeform billymg: there's a scene in 1 of v. shalamov's 'kolyma stories' where a guard storms into the barrack in the evening and smashes the old tin cans the inmates have been using as little kettles to warm up bits of food
10:10 asciilifeform 'worthless pieces of shit, clearly you are fed too much and work too little, if you have what to warm up in these'
10:12 asciilifeform 'For now, the consumer is too strong for comfort. ... The household savings buffer “suggests to me we may have to keep at this for a while,” said Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City President Esther George in a webinar earlier this month' etc
~ 2 hours 7 minutes ~
12:20 asciilifeform << i.e. number-theoretic constructs. which all req bignums, as said earlier.
12:20 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 06:13:14 unpx[shinohai]: For what I've seen it implies the existance of a group like structure on which is hard to compute discrete log... so it comes to mind either bignums diffie hellman like or elliptic curves...
12:22 asciilifeform there aint a block cipher where can e.g. decrypt(key1, encrypt(key2, encrypt(key1, payload))).
12:24 asciilifeform ( ... and get == to encrypt(key2, payload) )
12:30 signpost leaving aside the baggage of tor, would such a thing be useful for "onion" messages, say in the case where I lose contact with asciilifeform but hope that by peer propagation I can get a message to him? seems like if a hypothetical cipher like that could be had, the message could be unwrapped in more than one order.
12:30 signpost question from my own ignorance of subj, of course.
12:31 asciilifeform signpost: in fact we already have an onionesque 'addrcast' thing
12:31 signpost I guess the object proposed isn't strictly an onion; it's a weird onion that can be unwrapped in any ordering of layers
12:32 asciilifeform signpost: problem is that it's ruinously expensive in re bw -- yer talking to 1, but copies go to whole net. so is meant to be used sparingly (hence 'send or attempt to decode addrcasts only if >=1 cold peer in wot')
12:32 signpost yep, and who knows when you're fully unwrapped
12:32 asciilifeform right, hence why addrcast has only 1 'wrap'
12:32 asciilifeform (is keyed to 1 peer, who yer unable to directly reach at given time)
12:34 asciilifeform even supposing you wanted >1 layer, aint much you can stuff in unfragged udp.
12:34 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2021-07-22 asciilifeform: 'Every internet destination must be able to receive a datagram of 576 octets either in one piece or in fragments to be reassembled.
12:34 asciilifeform addrcast, luckily, only needs to fit 6byte ipv4+port.
12:35 signpost yep, tight space. is it information-theoretically unavoidable that layered encryption increase size?
12:35 signpost I suppose somewhere in there, there's new information about a new key?
12:35 signpost each time
12:36 asciilifeform signpost: aha
12:38 asciilifeform at the very least, each 'unpacker' has to have some notion that he successfully unpacked. i.e. some plaintext he can expect on correct decipher, to know whether he did
12:39 asciilifeform is rather expensive process, even leaving aside the 'meaningful to 1 , but goes to all' aspect. and largely useless to have >1 layer in it w/out public key crypto
12:40 asciilifeform in pest we only have it for nat-drilling process, i.e. addrcast is a way to reach out w/ addr to a stranded peer w/ whom you still have a shared net.
12:41 asciilifeform but the ultimate objective is always to re-establish proper p2pism, rather than 'broken telephone'
12:50 asciilifeform ( other thing is that in pest, one aint guaranteed to know anyffin re yer peers' peers , they may as well be figments of imagination , from cryptological pov . )
12:52 asciilifeform the correct way to 'reach out and touch' peer's peer is to send him a pgpgram paste and make an actual peering with him.
12:52 asciilifeform then transforms from 'figment' to peer.
12:53 asciilifeform and makes the net stronger.
12:54 phf << i like the gossip feature that unless you get a direct message, it's otherwise a hearsay. if you don't have a direct link to asciilifeform you can figure out how to establish it in public forum, rather than attempt to construct a hidden, yet bulletproof side channel
12:54 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 12:30:28 signpost: leaving aside the baggage of tor, would such a thing be useful for "onion" messages, say in the case where I lose contact with asciilifeform but hope that by peer propagation I can get a message to him? seems like if a hypothetical cipher like that could be had, the message could be unwrapped in more than one order.
12:55 phf because your hearsay flow is basically a public forum, observable by all participants, in my estimation gross interference becomes rapidly obvious
12:58 phf but i can also appreciate how this approach is at odds with the attempts to make pest an underlying protocol for all kinds of comsumer stuff, because there's all kinds of automatic behaviors "consumer comes to expect"
12:58 asciilifeform wb phf!
12:58 phf or for that matter the fact that asciilifeform not longer explicitly set out to create a gossip protocol
12:58 asciilifeform and yes.
12:59 asciilifeform phf: 'not from good life'(tm), recall
12:59 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-06-06 asciilifeform: recognizes the 'inelegance' of the h(s) scheme , 'yer trying to get the win from rsa sigs w/out paying price of rsa, and will never be as good as Real Thing' but imho over9000x beats 'nuffin'
12:59 asciilifeform ( etc )
12:59 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-06-06 asciilifeform: a primary objective of pest algo is 'messages cheap enuff to process that you can do it at nic line rate', and sadly incompat. w/ the use of any known serious pubkey sig algo w/out custom iron.
~ 18 minutes ~
13:18 asciilifeform << from asciilifeform's pov, notion of pest is to revv up a proper internet, using the traditional one in same way as it used the old telecom wiring, and extend from there. which is rather different affair from
13:18 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 12:58:03 phf[awt]: but i can also appreciate how this approach is at odds with the attempts to make pest an underlying protocol for all kinds of comsumer stuff, because there's all kinds of automatic behaviors "consumer comes to expect"
13:18 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2021-11-21 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: 'secret' objective of pest is to build a wotronic internet parasitically on top of existing comms.
13:19 asciilifeform not to say that standing up a pestron oughta be 'phd assembly line'(tm), necessarily. but 'errything oughta be made simple as possible, but not simpler'(tm).
13:19 asciilifeform * ... which is rather different affair from 'konsoomer bangs fist on pnoje', conceptually
13:25 asciilifeform ultimately the participants have to remain aware that bw is 'not rubber' and can't throw GB+ of warez in 'all to all', 'onionism', etc. and expect any kinda useful performance
13:26 asciilifeform use cases where 'heavy' traffic are necessarily b/w 2 peers with working direct linkage.
13:26 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-30 10:42:33 asciilifeform[5]: signpost: pretty neat. you'll want file chunks as direct msg tho, rather than broadcast, if you let'em all-to-all no amt of bw will ever suffice. iirc we had a thread where 'let each station offer operator-selected files to own peers'.
13:28 * asciilifeform at one time had crackpot notions of protocols where 'pay for transit' but not interested in baking shitcoins and left this well enuff alone, and intends to continue
13:32 asciilifeform the fundamental problem there is that while traditional telecoms, with satellites, oceanic fiber, etc. function -- the notion of competing with'em economically is a laff; but if not function, then 'your customers' over9000x moar interested in 7.62x39 and tinned beef than 'how send packet'. with little 'in the middle'.
13:44 phf can confirm, antena towers are used for facebook iphone, or else firestation volunteer comms, not so much for multihop microwave relay to unsit local shit internet monopoly
13:46 asciilifeform phf: 1 of the obv reasons for this is that 'konsoomer' has very high expectations. gb/s warez, rather than 'amazing, mr. marconi can send paragraph across ocean!' -- which can only be satisfied by astonishingly expensive grid
13:47 asciilifeform 'going ~down~ tech ladder' is a rather hard sell.
13:48 phf "we can have a 8ns multihop to a DC in frederick" "but prey tell mr babage, can i watch comcast sportsball come season?"
13:48 asciilifeform the 'me an' my kalash, i'ma be own army' lulmeme scratches deep psychological itch in some folx, hence popular; 'i'ma be own at&t!' not so much
13:48 asciilifeform aaha.
13:51 phf fwiw it's the same people who discuss borderline q-anon stuff on facebook, boycot walmart, but shopaholic on amazon, etc.
13:52 asciilifeform who else.
13:53 asciilifeform dissidents(tm).
13:53 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-28 11:35:37 asciilifeform[5]: afaik 4chanism can only exist in counterpoint to 'homo' tho -- rather like 'dissidents' evaporated away with sovok
13:55 phf it's an impolite, in a certain kind of company, question, where was boris strugatsky in the 90s
13:56 asciilifeform aaha
14:00 phf or my mom's endless mirth, she went to some bard's concert, and the front row sing along was all standing with ukraine, vote for drumf is a vote for fascism, etc. part of jewish-russian potomac community
14:01 asciilifeform lol!
14:07 signpost << yep. most, but not all, questioners come to socrates expecting that socrates will change.
14:07 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 13:25:10 asciilifeform[5]: ultimately the participants have to remain aware that bw is 'not rubber' and can't throw GB+ of warez in 'all to all', 'onionism', etc. and expect any kinda useful performance
14:07 signpost ohai phf!
14:09 signpost there is a machine application of pest that's of interest, but it's entirely compatible with human operators being responsible for the final line of defense against link breakage.
14:10 * signpost wouldn't mind to at least attempt use as a server control plane.
14:11 asciilifeform can indeed use if properly p2p'd, and while remembering that the keyz are symmetric
14:13 * signpost can imagine a scenario where folks in wot offer capacity to folks buying same, using phf's notions of an in-pest wot, plus bids/asks and proofs of payment also in pestchain as structured messages.
14:13 signpost not a complete sketch, just grunting in a direction
14:13 asciilifeform there's no particular reason wai couldn't use a pestron in a 'slave mode' as a replacement for ssh, sans the latter's gnarly '100kloc of ???', null ciphers, etc
14:15 asciilifeform signpost: 'buy&sell cpu' imho suffers from problem similar to 'let's make own at&t'
14:15 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 13:32:48 asciilifeform[6]: the fundamental problem there is that while traditional telecoms, with satellites, oceanic fiber, etc. function -- the notion of competing with'em economically is a laff; but if not function, then 'your customers' over9000x moar interested in 7.62x39 and tinned beef than 'how send packet'. with little 'in the middle'.
14:15 signpost only if you want to avoid trusting your friends.
14:16 signpost if you and I had a deal for me to run phuctor on a spare box, there's no need for mathematical proof that I will do so.
14:16 asciilifeform i suppose 'if you've enuff friends, can sell almost anything'
14:16 asciilifeform but how many who willing to pay 5$ where lulazon wants 5cent
14:16 asciilifeform ('the FG problem')
14:17 signpost "what use is a baby"
14:17 signpost but yes, no question it's the same problem
14:17 asciilifeform moar of 'what use is acorn'
14:18 asciilifeform it aint even that 'no one can compete with $megacorp', but that 'i'ma sell xyz to phriends' biz model has obv weaknesses, as illustrated in history of #t
14:19 asciilifeform at some pt one needs over9000x moar phriends, or over9000x richer ones, or to try to peddle $FG to randos somehow
14:19 signpost re onion, I was curious whether there's such thing as cryptographic commutivity and it sounds like at least one barrier is "how do you know when you've performed a step in the operation correctly?"
14:20 * signpost not eductated in these things, recall
14:20 signpost and yep, I don't have grand designs on an in-pest consumer market warpath
14:20 asciilifeform signpost: there is, but only w/ rsa-style number-theoretic schemes
14:20 asciilifeform i.e. slooowly
14:20 signpost statecraft is an art project; one'd always be better off doing anything else
14:20 signpost got it
14:20 signpost like "there's some offset between this key and that, and you don't know the offset" ?
14:21 signpost or sub offset with some operation
14:22 asciilifeform nah, it worked like this (1980 piece)
14:23 asciilifeform simply used exponentiation with large seekrit prime as the function E
14:24 asciilifeform *modulo with
14:24 asciilifeform i.e. variant of rsa where both exponents -- seekrit
14:24 asciilifeform consequently could do this.
14:24 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 12:22:09 asciilifeform[4]: there aint a block cipher where can e.g. decrypt(key1, encrypt(key2, encrypt(key1, payload))).
14:25 asciilifeform 'somehow' (nsasomehow) diffie-hellman became 'Official standard' instead, tho does ~same thing
14:28 asciilifeform (in either case, objective is for 2 parties to agree on a random bitstring w/out sending it over the wire where snoop sees it)
14:28 phf << i've ranted about this before, but i don't think that's a deep enough conclusion. problem is not "sell to phriends" problem is that everyone is the subject of globohomo first, and a friend second. related is that fact that "talk to my accountant over gpg and pay him in btc"
14:28 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 14:18:50 asciilifeform[5]: it aint even that 'no one can compete with $megacorp', but that 'i'ma sell xyz to phriends' biz model has obv weaknesses, as illustrated in history of #t
14:28 phf has always been a larp.
14:30 asciilifeform entirely tru tho
14:30 phf mp didn't really /need/ tmsr for anything, so his btc went to whoring, restaurants, travel, etc. which is not a bitcoin economic activity, but rather exchanging gold for local shells and bottlecaps
14:30 asciilifeform not that 'subject of reich' can't occasionally fork over bit of paper dough or btc to buy magick goodies phriend baked in basement. but the notion that 'get rich from this' is 'larp' and good, quick way to lose shirt
14:31 signpost yup, and even if globohomo falls, still a larp to think one'd be in a freer position in those circumstances.
14:31 phf right, effectivelly it's the buying of pizza with btc
14:32 signpost for my part, what's interesting is what keeps one able to have unmediated conversations.
14:32 asciilifeform it is even possible to sustain baking the pizzas and feast erry week. but not 'i'ma be fulltime baker'
14:32 phf that's why when i came back was ranting a lot about the amish, not necessarily as a society to emulate (can't amish without halibarton defending you from the chinee), but as an illustration of a working example of bootstrepped ecoonimic machine
14:33 asciilifeform amish, hassids, etc. and over9000x folx observed already, they did not need any kinda electronics, new or old, they work rather differently
14:33 asciilifeform and civilian can't 'install hassid firmware'
14:35 * asciilifeform recalls #a thrd re subj, not came to any substantially diff conclusion than above
14:35 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-01-14 asciilifeform: recommends his strategy -- of conducting biz in btc strictly to fill a hodl -- to others, but not under illusion that it is generally applicable
14:35 phf but then why
14:36 asciilifeform notion -- 'pizza' aint necessarily useless
14:37 asciilifeform today pizza, tomorrow -- smuggled deutschmarks a la 1990, or whatever equiv.
14:37 asciilifeform 'if anyone asks -- pizza strictly'
14:39 asciilifeform ( if phf's q was 'wai bother with computer', however, there aint necessarily good answer. 'why digging with spoon?' 'there's no spade in this cell' )
14:39 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-24 12:26:33 asciilifeform[5]: << asciilifeform not blind to the fact that ~errything he does is either a chore or a 'displacement'. for all the good this realization does, lol
14:42 asciilifeform << if understood phf's observation, 'yer still mediated by at&t lol'. but imho 'hey we dug 15 metres with spoon, let's dig 15 moar'
14:42 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 14:32:40 signpost: for my part, what's interesting is what keeps one able to have unmediated conversations.
14:42 phf nah, the why was more like "building frontier economics" vs "hodl". in my mind hodl was always a bonus, particularly since i've never had enough of fuck you btc. i thought that mpex, gpg contracts, pseudonymity of nick<>rsa prime, was it.
14:43 phf which is the amish, hassid, etc. part of the whole operation
14:44 asciilifeform was always the '???' in the 'xyz, ???, Profit!!!' of tmsr (and earlier lulmemes, the 'randroids'' 'galt paradise' etc, recall where the heroes abscond to some seekrit hideout and buy cigars from 1 anuther w/ gold coins)
14:46 asciilifeform aficionados normally studiously ignore amish et al, because 'tech' which requires you to be born as sumbody else to 'use' it aint all that interesting
14:46 phf is a man not a entitle to the fruits of his labour!
14:46 asciilifeform (tm)(r)
14:47 asciilifeform afaik attempts to 'amish' by folx ~not~ part of 'ethno' diaspora -- historically not went far.
14:47 signpost little bit of "how ams amish" going on here, imho worthwhile to appleseed it to them.
14:47 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-28 13:08:43 signpost: I want to seed it in the NH "free state" wot when I get up there, for example.
14:48 asciilifeform signpost: last asciilifeform heard, there was plan where 'over9000 folx move to nh and elect fuhrer'. what happened to this ?
14:48 signpost takes time, but it's grown
14:49 * asciilifeform recalls from ~20y ago... seems like oughta've been enuff time
14:49 signpost but plenty of "hurr cops can't take my weed" among them in terms of bargain bin philosophy
14:49 * asciilifeform did not actively follow subj tho
14:50 signpost still struggling to unseat democrats let alone seat anarchists, yes.
14:50 asciilifeform imho reminiscent of 'pirate party' ( remember these? )
14:51 phf asciilifeform, imho once you start diging that particular hole, discover that you can't really amish without shared priors. i've been to amish service a handful of times, and every individual amish that i know is there. not like "mark is out this sunday, but there's samuel". mark is there, and so is samuel, and so is amos,
14:51 asciilifeform magicked away, somehow
14:51 phf and amos has covid or whatever
14:52 * signpost bbl, tacos
14:52 asciilifeform phf: exactly. hence 'wanna amish? try being born as'
14:53 asciilifeform it doesn't come in pill form just yet.
14:54 phf asciilifeform, well, that's a different issue. becoming amish, but with your foundational philosophy being tmsr, vs literally becoming amish. the later is avaible, and welcomed, you just don't get an instragram picture out of it, so very few people do it
14:56 phf not otherwise different from "becoming japanese" or "becoming russian". learn language, live in the area, go to church, do business with, etc. in 20 years maybe some of them will consider you a close friend and business partner, others will still insist on speaking english with you no mater what
14:57 asciilifeform central q upstack imho was, tho, does 'canhaz unmediated communication' 'do sumthing' per se. entirely possibly -- that not, that it is entirely same proj as those folx who '3d print kalash', with which 0 shot anyffin, usually not even paper target. but -- possibly that not.
14:58 asciilifeform it aint somehow a given that 'dig with spoon' goes anywhere useful. and inmate entirely within his rights to not dig, instead play cards, drink chifir etc
14:58 phf right
14:59 asciilifeform 'to dig or not to dig' is personal matter.
14:59 asciilifeform and 'what direction dig' a good subj for discussion. but 'to dig?' imho less
15:01 phf well, hence we are where we are, because the original j'accuse was that "engineers will dig, just because there's dirt"
15:01 asciilifeform some folx psychologically inclined to dig, even if 'nowhere to'
15:01 asciilifeform (the 'displacement' thrrd etc)
15:02 asciilifeform occasionally they get out; but moar usually just dirty, and beaten by guards
15:03 phf you brought up shalamov just now, and recall his story where the escape was organized by former wwii army unit, who escaped, but were doomed and knew it, "still better to die free men"
15:03 asciilifeform aaha
15:03 asciilifeform iirc 1 of the few that got translated and came out in eng
15:04 asciilifeform ( iirc there are several versions of the legend, also )
15:04 phf i think it's in second half of the kolima tales, though that one translation that exists is god awful
15:04 asciilifeform 'last battle of major pugachev'
15:04 asciilifeform iirc
15:05 phf they stripped shalamov poetic language, and all that's left is the "horrors ilza, the werewolf of ss"
15:06 phf *horrors of
15:06 asciilifeform well they didn't have an english shalamov to make it go in eng. so yea stripped
15:06 asciilifeform making 'poetic' in eng is on the order of porting 'doom' to c64
15:08 phf i still think though that "why dig" is an important question, because it attempts to set some kind of parameters for the final result. imho test for "3d printed kalash" is are you going to grab it when the time comes, or are you going to reach for your license and registration instead
15:12 phf as it stands, pest is the comfy network with frens. the transmission on my lexus went, at a rather inopportune time. everyone who can help me in that situation are rather within the walls of the compound, or else only reachable by various globohomo means.
15:12 phf *are either
15:13 asciilifeform phf: 1 thing is that 'comf with frens' offers satisfaction of incremental results. for instance, this -- solved.
15:13 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-07 asciilifeform: << initially asciilifeform had a very concrete problem -- 'how do i announce rack outages if dulapnet lives in selfsame rack?' -- and tried (with help from signpost et al) to [http://
15:16 asciilifeform take small bite; then anuther; and at some pt will be able to call the fixer via 3 hops of 900mhz or watnot. 'what does this do?' is separate q, and only answerable when extending the hypothetical to e.g. 'can call when no tower?' 'can call when his socialcredit(tm) is insufficient to use tower' etc
15:17 asciilifeform unlike kalash, does not req a 'decisive' 1 act of 'allahu akbar'
15:17 asciilifeform but rather over9000 small allahu-akbars.
15:20 * asciilifeform recalls own crackpot quest at uni to get profs interested in 'p2p cellphone' proj. came, naively, with figures, arguments involving 1/d^2 and wattages, etc.
15:21 asciilifeform 'why pay at&t when 24 outta 25 of yer callers are within 1km'
15:21 asciilifeform fortunately we dun need to sell pest to committee; itworx(tm) w/out approval of committee..
15:24 asciilifeform q of whether mechanic (or whoever else) will behave, or think, 'differently' if he dun have to use the tower -- easy to answer 'lolno', but imho 'only gods know', entirely possible that ~some~ -- yes, and interestingly.
15:25 asciilifeform or instead like 1990s pgp, 'lolno'
15:25 asciilifeform but in either case it defo aint about 'canhaz twatter but not ban people for selfie in trumpf hat'.
15:26 asciilifeform if about anyffin, is about other things, yet not known.
15:27 asciilifeform ( and most of these, likely 'small' and individually unsexy -- canhaz p2p warez a la early 2000s, for instance. canhaz www hosting not ddosable. etc )
15:27 asciilifeform even 'www that doesn't fall down when author dies' is imho a serious win.
15:28 phf i feel like we've had this particular subthread before, multiple times, and then, like now, you've misunderstood my point
15:29 asciilifeform imho understood, and agreed, w/ phf's point (and then also)
15:30 asciilifeform 'spoon tunnel at best only goes to next barrack'
15:30 asciilifeform and prolly can bet on this, and not lose.
15:33 * asciilifeform if knew how to instead invent recipe for folx to live on sunlight, and build house in parallel dimension away from reich -- would work on ~that~
15:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-14 14:20:17 asciilifeform: “Well, do you have another globe?”
15:36 asciilifeform in ye olde sovok, folx spent considerable elbow grease on 'how to illicitly print copies of xyz', sat with typewriters and carbon paper, ran over9000 b&w photos, etc. and in the end who the fuck cares. today anyone can buy xerox, but why.
15:36 asciilifeform easily -- this.
15:37 * asciilifeform at one pt wanted to reconstruct usenet, naively thinking that the folx who used to live there would somehow come back
15:37 asciilifeform do ideas & conversations matter? nfi. possibly -- not
15:38 asciilifeform then -- maybe the ants will build moar interesting civ, where they do.
15:43 asciilifeform the basic q imho is open q, of whether there is a layer of human remaining beneath the 'but pray tell'.., that could be excavated.
15:43 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 13:48:49 phf[awt]: "we can have a 8ns multihop to a DC in frederick" "but prey tell mr babage, can i watch comcast sportsball come season?"
15:51 phf information is suddenly infinitely cheap, while sorting through that information is infinitely expensive
15:53 asciilifeform with wot, hypothetically -- finitely
15:54 asciilifeform with firehouse of '1e10 monkeys' -- yes, infinitely.
15:54 asciilifeform *firehose
15:55 phf i need to patch a hole in my jeep, should i be using bondo body filler, then primer, then paint. or fiberglass w/ resin? should i even bother at all or just coat with linseed oil? i have 1000 youtube videos that answer YES, NO to previous questions in all the possible permutations.
15:56 * asciilifeform with steelshaving-laden epoxy, then paint, but 'not loox new' fwiw
15:57 phf my meat wot's answer is "rust is but a manefestation of the divine will, cover up its shame, and drive that sucker until the frame separateth from the body"
15:57 asciilifeform or, moar recently, 'furnace lights then gas turns off'. forums: 'clean flame sensor rod'. it's clean. turns out, poor ground connect, thing is meant to conduct 120v via fire to ground. but no helpful forum crib sheet, had to infer from physical principles lol
15:58 asciilifeform 'best magician cannot pull rabbit from hat unless there is a rabbit in the hat' etc
15:59 phf asciilifeform, yeah millions of those, most jsut left unanswered. is all this science "better" than a local elder giving you maybe bad advice (make sure you put onion in your varnish!), but also giving you the peace of mind that you probably made a decend enough decision :>
16:00 asciilifeform often enuff, lacking the shaman with onion, stuck with empirical method.
16:00 phf i mean, usenet was not much better in this respect, invtented topical flamewars. there's at least two men, right this very second, still connected to usenet through either google forums or a paid service, having a epoxy VS fiberglass debate
16:00 asciilifeform 'chess by vote'
16:01 asciilifeform sometimes tho someone who could actually play was present.
16:01 * asciilifeform learned moar re organik chem from al schwartz than from 4 semesters of same in '2nd tour of duty' at uni
16:02 phf "this here thread ran 25 years, had its own hostring shard when things like that were a concern, inventend new branch of material science meanwhile and spawn a handful of phds, the car that i was going to treat has since rusted and been decomitioned, etc but my children will carry on my vigil, for the filthy fiberglass scu
16:02 phf m shall not have their last word"
16:06 phf asciilifeform, i've been rereading some old common lisp threads, mostly because i'm hacking genera in my spare time and the kind of questions i want answers to have not been raised since early 2000s
16:06 phf and i'm starting to doubt naggum's merit :>
16:07 phf man had no chill, and outside of a handful of highly insightful posts he was mostly an unhinged psycho
16:08 signpost as a younger man I thought I was being clever by selecting philosophy out of the madness/religion/philosophy trilemma.
16:08 signpost ended up thinking the religion was the substrate atop which the philosophy, as per thread a while back.
16:09 * signpost hears phf asking what the hell the cultural substrate of the engineering ought to be.
16:09 signpost curious if he'll laugh if I say christendom.
16:09 phf greeks answered that question, cultural substrate of engineering is cuckoldry
16:10 signpost sec while I quote middle mp against late mp on this subj.
16:10 signpost
16:10 bitbot (trilema) 2015-04-10 mircea_popescu: what motivates the monkey to pick up the rock isn't some sort of contorted dream about becoming a rockthrowing revolutionary ceo.
16:11 signpost
16:11 bitbot (trilema) 2015-04-10 mircea_popescu: most of human history, and the vast majority of everything nice and good, came out of cause-oriented. so common in fact it didn't even have a name.
16:12 phf but that's the same mp!
16:13 signpost against
16:13 bitbot (trilema) 2019-12-14 mp_en_viaje: most beings an engineer produce useful things only as an unintentional / coincidental byproduct of an internal cycle of self-assuaging that's broadly unrelated to anything else.
16:13 phf oh
16:15 signpost I don't know that "why work to ensure free comms" can be justified more satisfactorily than "because the truth is redemptive, emerges out of free dialogue, and god commands that uncovering truth is the highest good"
16:15 signpost not saying that last bit casually; it'd just never end if one wanted to elaborate it.
16:16 phf signpost, you're commenting on asciilifeform's commentary rather than my original point
16:16 signpost not intentionally at least.
16:20 phf i figured, i'm not sure how this thread started, and i'm too lazy to reread, but something i said prompted asciilifeform to re-raise our old argument "why dig". when it comes to free comms my concerns is not "why have it?" but more like "what should be done so that there's a meangful communication going on over the comms",
16:20 phf and the second question "what are we missing if we were to attempt to accomodate such future arrangement"
16:21 signpost yeah, that was my answer to your question, if unclear.
16:21 signpost the thing you're saying it needs has to be imposed, which is why mp was sufficient foundation for the prior era.
16:21 signpost he imposed.
16:21 signpost also why I've said fuck it all, I'll just be an agnostic christian like any good thinking european. what else?
16:21 phf well, before we impose, we should figure out what we're imposing
16:21 signpost 100% agree
16:22 phf i'm not saying "lets force my mechanic to use pest", that wasn't in the original observation either
16:22 phf mechanic is long downstream, and not much important
16:22 signpost no, normies just take the shape of their container.
16:23 phf like in the car case, to solve that problem, i either talk to the locals (i.e. within the compound), or else i talk to my economic partners. the later fully attached to the dominant system.
16:24 phf and the two kinds of communcation point at two directions of exploration of the whole
16:24 phf locals are kind of like amish, and the obvious question there "why do you even need all this technology"
16:25 phf where's economic partners are the second part of the tmsr question, "how does one fully detach himself from the spectacle without becoming a hermit/preper/etc"
16:25 signpost this is why I've got at least a little bit of interest getting the NH state government using.
16:26 phf and in the second case "free comms" don't buy much either, since you know, when i call my biz partner i'm pretty sure both ALEXA and SIRI are passively listening to our conversation in his house
16:26 signpost it's for when the US starts falling apart, not a larp about doing so helping it. to my mind one wants to get as much alternative structure in place and hope the place shakes hard enough that the crust falls away, new structure remains.
16:28 phf nd the second case with economic partnerns is kind of more interesting anyway, because nobody wants to be an amish. i mean it makes sense when you're zero skill urbanite, moving to a zendik farm to raise chickens. for me to raise chickens is like the least possible leveraged economic activity, whether or behalf of the spec
16:28 phf tacle, or for the benefit of a hypothetical amish/hasidic closed society
16:29 signpost yeah, I don't know if it's my own arrogance that'll kill me, but I've already lived on a subsistence farm for a few years, and that was enough.
16:30 signpost because it's too damned stable. it *can* run like that forever.
16:30 signpost I checked out to the other side of the divorce precisely because "this is it?"
16:32 * signpost has a sinus migraine acting up, will return when the pill kicks in.
16:33 phf i sort of entertain the thought of doing a beef farm, but i'm going at it xach beane (quicklisp guy) way: have lots of money to buy all the equipment that real farmers spend decades loaning and assembling
16:34 phf but that's a "boy from russia who watched too many john wayne movies" version of "retiring to own a winery in CA"
16:45 asciilifeform nuffin wrong with 'marie antoinette farm' as hobby, if no illusions re wat it is
16:50 asciilifeform << if you've got spare cycles, do consider to say moar. catastrophic shortage of just about anyffin on the net naodays re subj
16:50 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:06:17 phf[awt]: asciilifeform, i've been rereading some old common lisp threads, mostly because i'm hacking genera in my spare time and the kind of questions i want answers to have not been raised since early 2000s
16:51 asciilifeform << d00d left to archaeologists very little other than some (very suggestive of having 'done real work'(tm)) usenet posts (which asciilifeform collected here)
16:51 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:07:47 phf[awt]: man had no chill, and outside of a handful of highly insightful posts he was mostly an unhinged psycho
16:53 asciilifeform << per asciilifeform , q has an answer, and w/out invoking gods
16:53 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:09:01 signpost: hears phf asking what the hell the cultural substrate of the engineering ought to be.
16:53 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-01-19 ascii_butugychag: the whole point of engineering is to cut apart the happenstance-linked crud from what you actually want.
16:54 signpost consider god a term of art in context of the thread.
16:54 asciilifeform well yes
16:55 asciilifeform man doomed to engineer ever since forgot how to grow own fur etc
16:55 asciilifeform reqs no philosophies, in the simplest case.
16:55 signpost well, and have discourse ever since eyes in front, not back
16:59 asciilifeform not seen anyone (not even mp) suggest that 'shoemaker makes shoes because, see, cuckoldry'
16:59 asciilifeform while engineering simply reduces to 'make shoe differently from how grandfather made'
17:00 signpost the "here is a rock" of it to my mind is that humans *do* form a hivemind as fish swim.
17:00 asciilifeform folx who 'luvvv stability' (because see selves as on 'correct side' of its barrel) do ask 'why make differently'
17:00 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:30:16 signpost: because it's too damned stable. it *can* run like that forever.
17:00 signpost any given human mind is the product of its "being-with" the hivemind it inhabits
17:00 signpost best men, hivemind even more with the dead than the living.
17:01 signpost might not even need philosophy to leap to "improving hivemind-ation". just wait until the guys that did come and kill you.
17:02 asciilifeform 'arbalest is unchristian'(tm)(r)
17:03 asciilifeform fwiw if europe hadn't turks etc nearby, could've easily sat in a reasonably stable jp-style equilibrium of 'gunpowder aint sportsmanlike'
17:03 signpost mhm
17:03 phf << that's early greek position, very explicit in both lore (homer) and mythology (hephaestus)
17:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:59:39 asciilifeform[5]: not seen anyone (not even mp) suggest that 'shoemaker makes shoes because, see, cuckoldry'
17:04 phf and is also an accepted historic explanation "why not greek steampunk, even though knew how"
17:04 asciilifeform aha
17:04 asciilifeform 'wai do anyffin but lines of coke off back of whore, if yer not a luser' etc
17:05 asciilifeform ^ historic consensus of mp's on whole planet, plus or minus
17:05 signpost I'm no longer so willing to dismiss others their right to death by drowning in pussy.
17:06 signpost life's plenty hopeless. for those that want out, go.
17:06 phf i'm pretty sure, given mp's background, he took it directly from greeks. tbh i didn't even doubt that that's his source of thinking, by early conversation on subj
17:06 asciilifeform and naturally filtered-for in 'classical education', where larval mp is asked to read aristotle, but certainly not archimedes etc
17:06 asciilifeform directly, indeed, from greeks. these greeks.
17:07 asciilifeform the techno-impotence of 'the greeks'(tm) was 'gift that kept on giving' for 1500+y
17:08 phf arete for example originally associated with manly arts, strength bravey wit, as demonstrated by e.g. odysseus proving his standing to phaeacians by participating in a kind of proto-olympic event. throwing spear and such
17:09 signpost asciilifeform: I think the problem with taking will-to-technology as the whole of system of thought is "here is a rock" becomes "here is antimatter" as time goes on.
17:09 phf but same odysseus was suspected of being low-key fag for being crafty in his approach, to e.g. war. sneaking into troy first on an expedition and then using trojan horse, etc. he gets called out for this kind of faggy behavior bunch of times.
17:09 signpost (and all of our attempts at the implied problem are bad)
17:09 signpost lol
17:10 signpost it's interesting that manliness is oriented in the softer direction here. towards idealized game.
17:12 phf and of course hephaestus, god of craft and smithing, was _the_ original cuckold, married as he was to aphrodite (due to no doubt all dat sillicon valley bucks) bunch of mythos is her sleeping around, and him seething, but not being able to do much about it, for he is a cripple otherwise, and lacks manhood to put her in che
17:12 phf ck
17:12 asciilifeform signpost: recall, pertinently, that 'spartan writes with his sword'(tm). we tend to hear, via written word, from the 'softer' 'manlies' only.
17:12 signpost I didn't say it was bad. said interesting.
17:12 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-10-13 asciilifeform: dun forget the 'height of the towers' tho. pretty much all of the samurai poetry / arts / etc come from the period where jp had already been properly divvied up, and the swordsmen were living fast off guaranteed kokus of rice, rather than daily raid
17:12 signpost probably right and proper means of nature tending away from waste.
17:13 signpost I brought up god because there is no "wai do" other than abstracting, elevating, and worshipping a god.
17:13 asciilifeform humans fixating ritualistically on using 1 organ instead of anuther -- not new
17:13 phf asciilifeform, yeah, but that's kind of the mp's "proper woman after the death of her man should spend rest of life writing about how awesome he was"
17:14 signpost god can be "soviet spaceman" as well as zeus.
17:14 asciilifeform speaking of these, hadn't looked in a while, but apparently still feb. of '22
17:15 asciilifeform aaha
17:16 * asciilifeform recalls the old theory where 'hero matures into god over 500y' etc
17:20 phf << well, i have the whole spitoon, last know backup tapes of a handful of bolix sites. when i have free time i've been teasing out various sources from their all over the place locations. but i've been doing it from inside genera, so more time is spent either setting it up or
17:20 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 16:50:42 asciilifeform[5]: << if you've got spare cycles, do consider to say moar. catastrophic shortage of just about anyffin on the net naodays re subj
17:20 phf hacking to be useful. there's obv no information on this subject anywhere
17:20 * asciilifeform sees the 'aristotelian' cosmography as product of 'thug aint happy to simply dominate others, needs to believe that he is chosen by gods'. ditto the dimwit, not happy to simply dominate via numbers, but 'hephaestus has to be a cripple and cuck'
17:21 asciilifeform phf: neato
17:21 * asciilifeform regrets to inform that got nowhere useful in many yrs in re bolixology. was set to buy, finally, electron microscope ('sweet deal'), then realized has nuffin with which to shave the layers away, nor a sputtering rig...
17:22 asciilifeform and hasn't enuff 'ivories' to 'i'ma shave with buffing stone and avg together the pics'
17:23 * asciilifeform recv'd useful materials, even, from 'informants want to stay anonymous'(tm), but sadly these opened moar questions than answrs and not obviated the need for above
17:23 phf i sent one ivory to zeptabar at peak lockdowns for it to be lost in geneva, switzerland mail distribution facility. so much for the infamous swiss clockwork
17:23 asciilifeform zepto fwiw not afaik to date posted even 1 actual multilayer stripdown
17:23 asciilifeform is just some d00d with microscope and afaik none of the other gear
17:24 phf well, it's the case "first problem is we ran out of gunpowder"
17:25 asciilifeform phf's approach -- reading the src, disasming bins, etc. is prolly the only 1 that'll ever yield anyffin, as req's only infinite patience with magnifying glass and 0 particle beams
17:26 phf fwiw no need to disassemble bins either
17:27 * asciilifeform recalls a 'reason wai there wasn't an emulator that dun crash is that thing was fulla timing-via-emptyloops' thrd
17:27 asciilifeform i.e. authors of emulator weren't in fact privy to details of the arch, because the latter possibly not even written down anywhere
17:27 phf i just very patiently waited until the moment when possibly all that's left of bolix ip ended up in my lap, mostly by work of other, much more dedicated whisperers
17:29 * asciilifeform had comparatively modest objective of 'replicate macivory in fpga', notionally ~then~ at leisure archaeologize therein
17:29 asciilifeform rather than 'archaeologize with $maxint card that might burn out any hour'
17:29 asciilifeform (fwiw mine gives ecc eggogs occasionally, and it's 'brand new' comparatively)
17:29 asciilifeform 'archaeologize with emulator' found quite frustrating.
17:31 * asciilifeform was also moar interested in low-level detail than even the outward lisp end, e.g. how did the iron-assisted gc work, and the like
17:31 phf original emulator was written by bolix wizards, as per, but the opengenera2 leak relies on brad parker's (righteous) hack of making gnarly machine generated dec alpha code work on x86
17:31 asciilifeform aha, saw
17:31 asciilifeform the emptyloops that worked on the dec, evidently, not so much on pc
17:32 asciilifeform vlm/snap4 etc had strong 'wunderwaffe in last minute of fall of berlin' flavour to it
17:32 asciilifeform worked. sorta.
17:33 phf so i did spend some time attempting to get parker's code to work more reliably when i ported it to mac, but the issue i ran into was the same one he had: his interpretation of some of the instructions was not quite correct. the crashes would all come from the alpha ivory instruction handlers
17:34 asciilifeform is why opening up the actual ic would be a++ imho
17:34 asciilifeform afaik was the only 100% working example of subj
17:35 asciilifeform (and yes maybe would fail if driven at 300mhz instead of 1, because emptyloops on realtime clock a la msdos or similar. but would be still mega-improvement on old emulator)
17:36 asciilifeform 'ivory', if somehow netlistized, would handily sit down in a ecp5 etc
17:36 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-28 13:56:27 asciilifeform[5]: << fwiw there are nao ice40-compat. ('ecp5', ~83k LUTs) w/ gb nic, for signpost's old idea re 'filter for validly signed incoming packets in dc'
17:36 phf the instruction bits, in the best lisp machine tradition were generated using lisp, they are basically a bunch of defmacros
17:37 asciilifeform in that 1 and only public paper, they, yes, bragged about '100% lisp-generated tapeout mask' etc
17:37 phf that look like (MOVQ arg2 FOO_STATE (thing))
17:37 asciilifeform aha
17:37 asciilifeform and this in the end shat out the film for tapeout etc
17:37 asciilifeform part of what made the artifact interesting to asciilifeform
17:39 phf but anyway, gary palter since then, using the original code, rewrote the relevant generator bits, to spit out x86 directly. this new and improved emulator only ever crashed once on me while i was mucking with the internals
17:39 phf *x86 and m1 arm
17:39 asciilifeform dunsuppose he ever posted the orig code anywhere?
17:41 phf no, it was supposed to be a commercial project, that for reasons plenty discussed in the logs never went anywhere
17:41 * asciilifeform bought up enuff iron that, theoretically, could contract, like normal person, with a reversing lab, and get the job done. but lacks the meatwot to pick reliable folx, rather than sink 50k$ to charlatans, so so far sucking thumb
17:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 15:57:19 phf[awt]: my meat wot's answer is "rust is but a manefestation of the divine will, cover up its shame, and drive that sucker until the frame separateth from the body"
17:41 signpost
17:41 signpost looks like on github somewhere, lookin
17:42 signpost taken down or private I guess.
17:43 asciilifeform signpost: prolly in his private one
17:43 asciilifeform well, if 'commercial'
17:43 signpost
17:43 phf well, the end of that thread says, "is there any news around this? A free release of OG?" "Sorry but there’s nothing new to report. The owner of the Symbolics IP hasn’t responded to any inquiries in several months now."
17:43 signpost looks like he wanted to
17:43 signpost yup
17:45 asciilifeform soo, d00d wrote emulator, then... went to zombie mallery for 'ask permission' to show it to anyone. lol
17:45 asciilifeform mega-proj
17:45 asciilifeform what can zombie say but 'grrr, brains'
17:46 signpost eh, I'm not going to blame anybody for not wanting to self-immolate in court for this.
17:46 signpost anyway, didn't mean to interrupt.
17:46 * asciilifeform was afaik 1st to bring up a public torrent of the orig genera src. and, somehow, not gassed.
17:47 asciilifeform iirc dks even left a snide comment on 'piratebay' -- 'thank you for downloading finest software envir ever devised...'
17:49 asciilifeform fwiw as soon as asciilifeform bought the 'ivory', posted its complete disk image on www. not even dks complained.
17:49 asciilifeform (much less 'bolix riaa' sued)
17:49 asciilifeform ^ also has 'full' src (well, the subset they give on the cd pack you get w/ the box)
17:50 asciilifeform the folx who 'sit on bolix finds' aint afraid of lawsuits but of 'my source won't give me moar if he finds out i posted it', complicated web of this, iirc phf described
17:52 asciilifeform near as can tell, (at least some?) of these folx hope somehow to become officers of a hypothetically reconstituted bolix co.
17:53 asciilifeform ( starting with mallery, who 'i bought for $mil, but Worth Billions!' -- or alternatively, per asciilifeform's hypothesis, simply happy to sit on the whole thing for nsa & co. who not eager to see even toy example of cpu-and-os-sans-overflows rise from bottom of ocean )
17:55 signpost dragon sits in the hoard because "here is gold" eh?
17:55 asciilifeform 'of course it's gold, see, i'm sitting on it, what else could it be'
17:55 phf it's hard for me to talk to palter's motivations, he could just be live by the sword, die by the sword type. he wrote the original code, his "new" emulator relies on both original emulator source and unreleased genera sources to work
17:56 asciilifeform if had to guess, would guess he used material from dks given on understanding that 'wouldnt be used for anyffin at all'
17:56 phf his work was a paid contract, presumably with all the trappings. the "just leak it to public" is not even in the universe where this transaction transpired
17:56 signpost asciilifeform: point being dragon can't spend gold, is afaik integral to the myth.
17:56 asciilifeform a, paid
17:57 * asciilifeform at one time offered to dks 'let's make fpga subst for macivory' but, unsurprisingly, he had no reason to trust 'farther than could throw' so no, not paid
17:58 asciilifeform iirc phf even had story where dks recounted 'didja know, 1 nut offered...'
17:58 phf asciilifeform, dks being the last known face of symbolics, i suspect he gets lots of communication, and more often than not from crackpots :>
17:58 signpost lol
17:59 asciilifeform lulzily, even the incident where asciilifeform paid his ~entire wage for the biz yr did not upgrade from 'crackpot'
17:59 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-04-07 asciilifeform: re dks , imho rather odd that feeding him for yr+ still dun getcha distinguished from 'autistic redditus'. but nfi.
18:00 * asciilifeform got the d00d a decent, if short-lived usg contract
18:01 asciilifeform to dks's credit, he did sell to asciilifeform his (claimed -- last) stock of spare 'ivory' cpu. (likely knowing full well for what to be used)
18:02 asciilifeform that was most recent purchase.
18:02 asciilifeform '18
18:02 asciilifeform maybe was b/c 'cessna' needed new engine just then. nfi
18:03 asciilifeform ( or because knew that gettin anyffin useful from these is over9000x easier said than done. )
18:05 phf dks is a skilled salesman, and to a great extent he's milking rock here
18:05 asciilifeform aaha
18:06 asciilifeform 1 time he managed to sell to asciilifeform ~outer shell~ of tape drive, 'maybe you find some tapes, and all you need is that-there standard drive from '80s'
18:06 asciilifeform still, lol, have it
18:06 asciilifeform 'custom bolix cable!11'
18:07 asciilifeform a++ sales, can't deny
18:08 phf if he had a full ip ownership, he'd sell opengenera as a subscription service, probably with same source arrangement as what you get on CD. all kinds of surface/application layer stuff, but of course no compiler or gc or dynamic windows or anything like that
18:09 asciilifeform aaha, sorta like how one can still 'buy' e.g. openvms, from what remained of compaq
18:09 asciilifeform 'here's half of the thing, and btw you agree not to actually ~do~ anyffin with it'
18:11 * asciilifeform 1st time bought a lispm from dks, did so largely to get the cds. and bummer, was ~same as the warez one, lol
18:12 * asciilifeform recalls trading it to phf for sample of 'ivory', and the latter iirc also traded it for sumthing somewhere
18:12 asciilifeform wonder whatever happened to that box
18:12 asciilifeform perhaps gone around earth n times, traded.
18:13 asciilifeform thing was ~100kg, with both parts summed..
18:14 * asciilifeform recalls having to take it apart & reseat things merely after moving from 1 desk to anuther
18:14 phf originally the reason why i wanted to get my hands on opengenera source is because i wanted to use it in quant contexts, kind of like how k/kdb is one type of specialized solution, a lispmachine in a vm could've been another. but for that usecase the system should obv be unencumbered, because last thing an investment fund
18:14 phf wants to do is to use warez (though i suppose they won't be opposed to it, as long as the outcome outweighs downsides, etc.)
18:14 asciilifeform a makes sense
18:14 asciilifeform once you want >1 man operating the thing, they start to care whether warez
18:15 phf THEN once i realized that ip is utter mess, i figured can be used to for tmsr, where "fuck you you can't use it" is an acceptable license. "we plundered this here system from the enemy"
18:15 phf but then lisp fell out of favor, and everyone switched to ada :)
18:16 * asciilifeform was interested in it from pov of 'make actually engineered, rather than fungal 74xxx late night undergrads fidgeting, clone'
18:16 asciilifeform lol
18:17 asciilifeform 'grandfather's axe', 'replace handle, replace blade', 1st lose the '80s soup of hardware hacks, then -- the global-variables-and-beer fungal software stack, what'd remain would, in theory, be 'sane comp', was the thought.
18:17 phf so at this point i can't really care that palter or malory or the lizards are keeping the thing under wraps. i get to play with the thing when i have nothing better to do, and it's kind of mediocre :> if the ip and the everything around it wasn't so utterly fucked in the late 80s early 90s, possibly oculd've become "the wa
18:17 phf y things are", but as it stands i'm not even sure, what, if anything, can be salvaged
18:19 * asciilifeform conceived of whole affair as, 1st of all, investigation into 'wat to salvage'. there were obv. things to salvage (e.g. they had reliable iron gc; ui where 'click on $object and see src of it' etc)
18:19 phf ftr some of the code i benchmarked out of curiousity when porting things around is about 7x slower than unoptimized sbcl
18:19 asciilifeform ( but not 100% obv that the simplest way to get these is to salvage from bolix, rather than remake from 1st principles )
18:20 asciilifeform phf: slower b/c emulates ancient heap of '80s irons ? or from ~algo~ pov ?
18:22 phf asciilifeform, i suspect it's a combination. a mainloop on an ivory is conceptually close to an evaluator on cmucl: where ivory instructions are "VOPs"
18:23 phf i can't pull from the top of my head how fast cmucl's evaluator is compared to its compiler, but that should be the baseline
18:23 phf can't really go past that since you're working with a virtual machine
18:24 asciilifeform sorta wai asciilifeform was over9000x moar interested in reviving the iron per se in modern (fpga) variant, than in emulator. i.e. the appeal from asciilifeform's pov is concretely to ~lose x86~ and its pile of undoc'd gpus etc driven mandatorily w/ c liquishit, the bookcase fulla pile of realmode->protmode->longmode hacko
18:25 asciilifeform * ... realmode->protmode->longmode hackolade, the shelf fulla bus specs, all that liquishit.
18:25 asciilifeform instead 'here is a comp, described in these 150pg, that actually maeks sense and here's a graphical lisp' etc
18:25 asciilifeform not took long to realize that it aint aboutta be '150pg' if from bolix.
18:26 phf asciilifeform, smbx garbage collector is btw in software
18:26 asciilifeform phf: aha, but w/ support from tagged ram etc neh
18:26 phf yah
18:26 phf yeah, i think tagged memory is the main win of the whole thing, from hardware level perspective
18:27 asciilifeform indeed
18:27 asciilifeform and the 1 thing that can't get 'on x64 with clever hand-sewn kernel in asm'
18:27 asciilifeform ( oblig asciilifeform piece re subj )
18:27 phf you can do things like allocate pined, continous, etc. regions of unsigned-byte's, but you will never be confused as to what it is
18:28 asciilifeform aha
18:28 asciilifeform + cdr-coding etc
18:29 phf i can probably spend this life studying what's there, and then next life implementing a replacement ;)
18:30 asciilifeform at this rate, race not b/w turtle and achilles, but 2 turtles, possib. even asciilifeform gets microscopist and working fpga netlist before the emulator folx gather the summed balls to post working emulator, lol
18:31 asciilifeform the dough, perversely, not the obstacle, obstacle instead 'where to spend'
18:31 asciilifeform ( talked to umd folx, they have the SEM but not, insisted, the particle beam setup to strip layers correctly )
18:32 asciilifeform 'come use the SEM, 100$/h, if 150 comes with slave' or approx
18:32 phf 150 hours?
18:32 asciilifeform $/h
18:32 phf oh oh
18:32 phf slave is there to ensure max h
18:32 asciilifeform ( it aint as if photo == netlist, naturally, that -- by hand, sit for yr+... )
18:33 asciilifeform there's various softs to help, but all 'semi auto'
18:34 asciilifeform all of this over9000x easier, yes, for '80s 1.8uM ic , than for current-day. but still not 'easy like spitting'
18:35 asciilifeform thing is approx on par w/ i486 re density/count.
18:35 asciilifeform afaik densest ic 'publicly' reversed to date was c64's 6502.
18:36 phf yeah, but the end result is that you now have an emulator of a bolix lisp machine, which you're going to do what with? study and run genera? doesn't get you any closer to hypothetical "going full chuck moore"
18:37 phf it's probably possible to describe ivory in very precise high level terms from what's available as is, where reversing will not give you any more insight into its nature
18:37 asciilifeform well, warez genera attached to e.g. gb/s nic, tb of dram, etc. may be moar interesting / appealing item, from certain pov
18:37 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-31 18:14:20 phf[awt]: originally the reason why i wanted to get my hands on opengenera source is because i wanted to use it in quant contexts, kind of like how k/kdb is one type of specialized solution, a lispmachine in a vm could've been another. but for that usecase the system should obv be unencumbered, because last thing an investment fund
18:38 asciilifeform 'quantity has a quality of its own'(tm)
18:38 phf gb/s nic that you're using 82 version of "ip/tcp" stack written in macsyma/symbolics common lisp hybrid to sling packets over, gtfo :>
18:38 asciilifeform as things are, nobody's aboutta host industrial realtime proggies on emulated genera.
18:39 asciilifeform phf: wainot the '82 stack. esp. if properly airtightened by modern hands
18:39 asciilifeform prolly moar doable than fixing any of the published c crapolade
18:39 asciilifeform if only because mass was forcibly over9000x smaller.
18:41 phf *zetalisp of course not macsyma
18:42 asciilifeform part of appeal, imho, of genera (concretely -- on dedicated iron) is that demonstrates that what it did ( particularly, 'large scale systems programming w/out c' ) was ~possible~
18:43 phf i have an oberon running on an fpga
18:43 * asciilifeform recalls. and iirc parker's 'cadr' too
18:44 asciilifeform but, phf did not say 'was gonna quant on oberon', fwiw
18:44 asciilifeform there's a reason wai bolix.
18:44 asciilifeform was -- 'adult' system
18:45 * asciilifeform still has the paper docs, obtained not with purchased bolixen but from retired mit fella. sometimes leafs through'em still
18:45 asciilifeform iirc whole set on 'bitsavers' nao tho
18:45 phf i've very glad i've resisted the urge to pick those up :D
18:46 asciilifeform heavy
18:46 phf takes up space, etc. also pretty much mechanized spooling of document explorer's contents
18:46 asciilifeform they were paperbacks, 8.5x11in. but good quality.
18:47 asciilifeform some on glossy print.
18:47 asciilifeform they fit precisely in 1 standard 3ft shelf.
18:51 * asciilifeform must bbl.
18:51 phf later
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