Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-04-04 | 2017-04-06 → ↓
00:28 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes pretty sure you also need the block hash somewhere
~ 39 minutes ~
01:07 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: point me to a 'somewhere', if you'd be so kind
01:09 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-04#1636874 << directly relevant. afaict, producing a transaction with trb code boils down to making a 'ctransaction' with 'vin's shaped per the constructor http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261
01:09 a111 Logged on 2017-04-04 00:23 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261 << kinda looks like all one needs to bake CTxIn's is the hash of the transaction and output index, can someone spot check this for me?
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01:09 ben_vulpes plus outputs, plus signing
01:10 ben_vulpes but ben_vulpes steals time from mary to pay peter or how did it go, must away again
~ 6 hours 19 minutes ~
07:29 shinohai Lel, I finally got around to checking that tardstalk thread mircea_popescu, re: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18367669#msg18367669
07:29 shinohai "Free feel to pass on my question, so he can prepare.
07:29 shinohai Q: who here in this circle-jerk sycophant orgy supports the delusion of ideal money, given that Buttcoin is an anti-fragile standard top-down controlled by whales? Ideal for whom? No need to wait for the lulz."
~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
09:00 mircea_popescu shinohai i have nfi what that is but anyway.
09:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
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09:04 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 05:09 a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 00:23 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261 << kinda looks like all one needs to bake CTxIn's is the hash of the transaction and output index, can someone spot check this for me?
09:08 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
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09:09 mircea_popescu (ie, if you don't also save the block hash, you can't do some edge cases of (currently mostly unsupported, but historically used) txn.
09:14 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637556 << it does no such thing: genesis block is unspendable ( originally from a bug in shitoshi's tx db, but since cemented )
09:14 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 13:08 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
09:15 mircea_popescu in other random lulz / things nobody notices, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-21#521918 <<->> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/18/bitcoin_user_stoned_on_virus_warnings/
09:15 a111 Logged on 2014-02-21 23:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember Stoned B ?
09:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
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09:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i remember the 'stoned' lul
09:16 mircea_popescu we're never gonna run out of it! such joy.
09:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how does it need the genesisblockhash?
09:17 mircea_popescu some puzzle bs. you might remember we discussed that whole nonsense recently.
09:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618321 << breadcrumb
09:17 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 20:19 mircea_popescu: idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work.
09:18 asciilifeform OP_DUP OP_HASH160 788464014149d93b4a6135f3d665a0a2d743e6c3 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
09:18 asciilifeform is what i see in there
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09:18 mircea_popescu god i'm going to have to delve into the whole pile of ancient history
09:19 asciilifeform the scripttron offers no such knob as 'gimme a block hash', not in satoshi's thing
09:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
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09:20 asciilifeform iirc that was from the tardstalk thread last month
09:20 asciilifeform linked last mo rather
09:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637573 relates to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637562 and is in response to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637570
09:21 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 13:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
09:21 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 13:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
09:21 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 13:18 asciilifeform: is what i see in there
09:21 mircea_popescu plox use better antecedents.
09:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aah i was looking at output, you have he input , yes
09:22 mircea_popescu yeah.
09:23 mircea_popescu now then : 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 spends a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ; for this purpose it actually uses the genesis block hash.
09:23 mircea_popescu this is an artefact of ancient idiocy, but what can i say.
09:23 asciilifeform but how does this 'need genesis block' ? yes it's a miner puzzle that uses genesis block as key. it could have just as easily used bible as key.
09:23 asciilifeform or goats.jpg's hash
09:23 mircea_popescu well... it's in there.
09:24 asciilifeform this is not equivalent to 'you need a block hash to form a tx'. in point of fact you do not .
09:24 mircea_popescu yeah, on contemplation it's not actually used for anything "standard" so to speak, is it.
09:25 asciilifeform not outside block header, nope
09:26 mircea_popescu yeah. okay.
09:26 mircea_popescu memory is a fuzzy thing.
09:26 * asciilifeform still brainmelting over the 'txid is not unique' horrors
09:26 mircea_popescu there is that. but his proposed de facto multiindex (block height txn height txid) works.
09:28 asciilifeform it worx internally (in e.g., nqb) but the mere fact of tx replacement idiocy being supported in shitoshi's turd, means that a tx is not, in principle, self-contained, can mean entirely different movement if meanwhile its txid got recycled
09:29 mircea_popescu txn is unique within block, not in global space, would at least make some sense.
09:30 asciilifeform ( per http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=wires_rev1#0968 , and last thread re same )
09:31 asciilifeform thing is, there is NO sane (i.e. o(1)) way to index without demanding unique global txid.
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09:32 asciilifeform tx replacement , and the mere contemplation of 'pruning', are a carefully crafted enemy rot weapon.
09:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform blocks are unique (for storage) so you could compose it out of say height.txid
09:40 asciilifeform for ~internal~ index
09:40 mircea_popescu yes.
09:40 asciilifeform see the difference though ?
09:40 mircea_popescu yes. what do you want me to do, shit antimatter ingots ?
09:40 asciilifeform shitoshi's tx format still uses only txid.
09:41 mircea_popescu myeah
09:42 asciilifeform i propose a declaration of 'tx replacement is an attack against sane bitcoin and whoever does it, is the forker, and not us, who thereafter ban it in trb and subsequent proggies.'
09:42 asciilifeform even though shitoshi, through having been dropped as a child, theoretically permitted it.
09:43 mircea_popescu understand something about "declarations" in this vein : they themselves are an attack, if you can't universally enforce them. the us collapsed out of an attempt to declare that "they, not us, are the bad guys" without the actual strength to enforce this ; so did the soviet union, and so does every inept mother who tries to tell her kid what to do out of line.
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09:43 asciilifeform tru!!
09:43 mircea_popescu right or wrong make absolutely no difference, even though it's how the female brain gets caught in this
09:43 mircea_popescu as it expects somehow "what's right" to matter naturally.
09:44 asciilifeform i can only describe the known cuts here. it's this, or live with no-sane-index and geometric-grinds-to-a-halt.
09:44 asciilifeform afaik.
09:45 mircea_popescu this item clearly gets rolled up into the "either move to ib or die with prb" eventual fork.
09:45 mircea_popescu and in ib, i expect the correct indexing will still be block height . tx index.
09:46 asciilifeform aha
09:46 mircea_popescu there's by now a list of about 3-4 of these, all of them similarily sufficient on own strength.
09:47 asciilifeform ( in unrelated lulz, https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ << guess who not cited!111 )
09:47 mircea_popescu this is entirely not lulz.
09:48 mircea_popescu i guess we send email.
09:48 asciilifeform ( goes straight from heninger etc 'Most recently, in 2016, Hastings et al. [3] revisited the problem of weak keys and investigated how many such keys were still on the Internet four years after the initial studies. ' )
09:49 * asciilifeform sings tom lehrer's 'Plagiarize!'
09:49 mircea_popescu (somebody plox send to asn@torproject.org claudiar@princeton.edu laurar@csa.princeton.edu an' pwinter@cs.princeton.edu a notice saying "you forgot to quote phuctor, you dorks".)
09:49 asciilifeform 'let no one else's work evade! your eyes!!11'
09:50 * Framedragger knows phf and asn from that list personally and knows for certain that they didn't 'plagiarize' from phuctor. but whatever, if phuctor not cited, it's plagiarism because independent thought not possible, etc.
09:50 mircea_popescu ima file a complaint with the princeton plagiarism police.
09:50 asciilifeform Framedragger: didja read the quoted bit ?
09:50 mircea_popescu Framedragger you can not klnow such a thing.
09:51 Framedragger how about "was discussed in developer meetings *long ago*" (the counter will be "you didn't tell us then so FU", so w/e i guess.)
09:51 asciilifeform ignoring 5 yrs of prior art will get you nailed in patent court, but in 'academia' it is apparently quite all right, so log as it is 'terrorist' prior art
09:51 mircea_popescu Framedragger what was discussed "in a mailing list long ago"
09:52 Framedragger not mailing list, but in person in munich, paris, etc. (granted, "taking my word for it" is not exactly a great argument.)
09:52 mircea_popescu in other lulz : try and find WHERE you register a complaint with teh fucking shitshow that pretends to be a university.
09:53 Framedragger possible weaknesses of rsa keys and the idea to run a "your relay key is weak" service as part of tor metrics infrastructure (tor metrics itself is an old project, ca. 2011)
09:53 mircea_popescu Framedragger what was discussed in developer meetings long ago ? "dude wouldn't irt be cool if i invented flight ???"
09:53 Framedragger ^
09:53 mircea_popescu this was discussed in developer meetings cca michelangelo. what of it ?
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09:53 Framedragger so, phuctor didn't originate the idea, is all.
09:53 asciilifeform two separate frauds here
09:53 Framedragger what particular paragraph ticked you off on https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ asciilifeform?
09:54 asciilifeform ~euclid~ originated 'the idea'
09:54 asciilifeform Framedragger: section 3 in entirety
09:54 Framedragger okay i think i know how trinque feels when being side-dragged into non sequiturs.
09:54 Framedragger ok, reading.
09:55 mircea_popescu Framedragger the "originate the idea" hogwash is ridiculouys. next you'\re going to bring defenses in copyright cases based on "grimm brothers didn't invent the alphabet so therefore ineptitude is a ok!!1"
09:55 asciilifeform goes straight from heninger, who, while a hot chick, never published the actual data !
09:55 asciilifeform to another similar derp in 2016
09:56 Framedragger asciilifeform: wait you must mean some other page than https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ because para 3 on there starts with "What does our work mean for Tor users?"
09:56 asciilifeform studiously ignoring the years in between. because they contain -- solely -- phuctor.
09:56 asciilifeform Section 3 , Framedragger
09:56 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/minigame-smg-march-2017-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), March 2017 Statement
09:56 asciilifeform 'Related Work'
09:57 asciilifeform in https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/pdf/anomalous-tor-keys.pdf .
09:57 Framedragger ah! ty.
09:58 Framedragger asciilifeform: ok i've read it; so your chief issue is that they didn't mention phuctor in-between the initial 2012 study and the 2016 years correct? i mean, bear with me, i'm not baiting.
09:58 asciilifeform the 'nothing to see here, move along, it was all this one d00d with broken key gen' aspect is also lulzy.
09:59 Framedragger and you absolutely cannot fathom the humble thought that they simply didn't hear about phuctor?
10:00 asciilifeform Framedragger: tall order, it gets crawled every 3 sec. and is ~top hit for, e.g., ~every pgp keyid on the planet.
10:00 asciilifeform so nope, nice try.
10:00 Framedragger top hit for every pgp keyid? that's pretty neat.
10:00 asciilifeform long keyid.
10:00 Framedragger aha right.
10:01 Framedragger well, my relay descriptor search service also got crawled loads, but the fact that people didn't know about it wasn't because people ignored it; but just that meat-people (not bots) weren't aware of it.
10:02 asciilifeform Framedragger: i wrote to, e.g., bernstein, more than once.
10:02 asciilifeform and to others.
10:02 Framedragger granted, phuctor gets crawled *more* / *a lot* (i presume, from what you had been telling). so i understand the incredulity of "you haven't heard?!!"
10:02 asciilifeform they ~know~
10:03 asciilifeform this defense is simply not available, Framedragger , 'we didn't know'.
10:03 Framedragger the fact that djb knows and ignores does indeed speak ill of him, i agree.
10:03 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7232807AAC462CD20992D2246A28C5DA1B22375772CB8C9C4D8AD53B8EC873AC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1673...4139 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '194.135.30.143 (ssh-rsa key from 194.135.30.143 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
10:03 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7232807AAC462CD20992D2246A28C5DA1B22375772CB8C9C4D8AD53B8EC873AC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1434...1633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '194.135.30.143 (ssh-rsa key from 194.135.30.143 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
10:03 asciilifeform and various media folx ( the risky.biz people, i wrote to several times also , for instance. 0 reply. )
10:03 asciilifeform years of this nonsense.
10:04 Framedragger well, why don't i (unless someone else already planned to do it first?) write to those folks on that ML, informing of phuctor, to see their response? maybe futile at this point and useless, but at least a more constructive reaction.
10:04 asciilifeform Framedragger: do you recall the seclist thread ?
10:04 Framedragger if they ignore then - i'll donate to bitcoin foundation a bit for generating noise.
10:05 asciilifeform i in fact did 'write to their ml', review what came of it.
10:05 Framedragger asciilifeform: the one with whatshisname, the german?
10:05 Framedragger aha.
10:05 mircea_popescu http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/0DIXy/?raw=true
10:05 asciilifeform boeck aha
10:05 Framedragger did you send this already mircea_popescu lol
10:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd include the 'why'
10:06 mircea_popescu yes.
10:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'll include the why in a formal proceeding. let them FIRST clean up their act
10:07 mircea_popescu since when the fuck does stern look @ slavegirl include litany of misdeeds ? let HER know what she did wrong and let HER fix it.
10:07 * asciilifeform suspects that it'll end the same way as all of the other cases
10:07 Framedragger mircea_popescu: what original thing did they take from phuctor, may i ask?
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10:07 mircea_popescu you mean, on the public record ? so next time starry-eyed Framedragger walks in and is all "oh, princeton, respectable institution" i link him above3 and he has to somehow deal with the cognitive dissonance ?
10:08 mircea_popescu Framedragger you've not any standing to ask, so i guess you mayn't ask.
10:08 asciilifeform Framedragger: there is more than one way to steal.
10:09 Framedragger there is no cognitive dissonance in my mind. i know those peeps personally and also simultaneously do not observe any plagiarism. they used things from those 2012 and 2016 projects.
10:09 mircea_popescu fucking ridiculous question. "what did soviet nuclear programme take from allies ? IT IS ALL BASIC SCIENCE!! THERES NAPKINS WITH FARTS DRAWN ON THEM SINCE 1933!111!!"
10:09 mircea_popescu Framedragger if that's what you believe, fine by me.
10:09 Framedragger (i certainly do not have any intention to troll.)
10:10 mircea_popescu look, there's people with all sorts of strange beliefs. i'm not in the business of forcing ideological compatibility. you can live with it, more power to you.
10:11 mircea_popescu also, i invented blackface last week. want to see the first best greatest blackface performance in history of world ?
10:11 Framedragger for sure :)
10:11 mircea_popescu heh.
10:12 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2014/the-two-aspects-of-my-urban-negro/ << there you go.
10:12 mircea_popescu (there was also some work done with blackface in 1715, but that was in france. that's it though, since 1715!)
10:12 Framedragger :D
10:13 mircea_popescu mp's genuine original theatre. doing things that are useful and interesting. give me tax money nao!
10:13 * Framedragger seen that post, amusing
10:13 diana_coman Framedragger, fwiw there really is no meaningful way to defend that paper
10:13 mircea_popescu Framedragger no you didn't see it because i had a discussion over coffee before taking the pics with a girl, so this matters now.
10:14 * Framedragger quietly swears
10:15 Framedragger diana_coman: why does it need defending?
10:15 mircea_popescu o.O
10:15 * diana_coman is speechless
10:16 diana_coman Framedragger, does that paper seem to you like an honest piece of research work in any shape?
10:16 Framedragger wasn't a rhetorical question. but i certainly do not wish to waste tmsr's cpu cycles, so no need to answer, either
10:16 mircea_popescu no, this is where we waste cycles. too much productivity is bad for management.
10:17 Framedragger diana_coman: i haven't read the method section yet but so far so good.
10:17 mircea_popescu what a difference a decade makes to academic standards i swear.
10:17 diana_coman on a side note, the only truly lulzy part in there is the footnote on page 1 "All four authors contributed substantially and share first authorship. The names are ordered alphabetically"
10:18 diana_coman esp for those in the know of academia-on-the-topic-of-author-order it screams desperate hunger
10:18 mircea_popescu now, i can see the merit in an argument along the lines of "what the fuck do you want mp, research ? how the fuck is that going to happen if you insist on sticking all the cowpokes indoors ? they'll do what they can, nod along with the rest of the "academia".
10:18 mircea_popescu which is the best possible construction i can put on Framedragger 's notions. "hey, this is what college MEANS NOW. sorry."
10:18 Framedragger btw the "which onion services targeted by those malicious relays" part of the paper is quite nice (from initial glance).
10:20 Framedragger i mean, a large part of the paper is exposition. rsa, dht (relevant to how onion services work), etc.; so, it's not *interesting*. but it's not in any particular way shitty. i wouldn't have read it otherwise and certainly do not see it as very valuable.
10:20 diana_coman mircea_popescu, I suppose that's pretty much the thing here: by now this is the "best" one can see from that area
10:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the interesting bit is that the enemy applies mircea_popescu's 'outsiders may NOT have ideas' thing quite well. 'oh, those terrorists made sonething? hiw cute. we'll take it and get $100 mil in grantola.'
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10:20 diana_coman a bit like "it's not plagiarising since this is what academia is now"
10:20 Framedragger (still no particular examples why it's bad given, btw)
10:20 mircea_popescu the only problem with this is that it's essentially fraudulent : princeton goes about to old people pretending it's a college, but in reality it's a diploma mill like any other. EXACTLY in the vein of how argentina goes about europe pretending it's a country an' trying to borrow money, when irl it's less of a country than my model train set.
10:20 diana_coman it used to be at least translating useful stuff
10:20 Framedragger why it's bad*
10:21 mircea_popescu diana_coman yeah, recall all the hissy fits about "oh this prof translated work, EVIL!11"
10:21 Framedragger diana_coman: do you take issue with any *particular* points, or just the "alphabetic ordering of names oh no"?
10:21 diana_coman Framedragger, the alphabetic ordering of names is inconsequential; that was just chuckles really
10:22 Framedragger yeah i understand.
10:22 mircea_popescu Framedragger what specifically'd convince you ?
10:22 Framedragger "#trilema dislikes a random irrelevant paper for not having mentioned phuctor; the rest of the discussion is about how academia used to be better."
10:22 mircea_popescu hold on to yer horses young'un.
10:23 Framedragger mircea_popescu: *any* pointers to the methodology; *any* untrue or glossy parts; *any* stretching in the conclusion sectoin.
10:23 diana_coman first and foremost I take issue with pretending that an unaknowledged repackaging of other people's work mostly pretends to be research
10:23 asciilifeform Framedragger: the next act of the opera ( which we've already watched a few times ) is the chorus of seekoority bloggers etc going on and on re the 'discovery'
10:23 mircea_popescu Framedragger alright. does this paper make the statement "we conducted no research of extant art, because [we're too cool for that ; princeton forked off reality ; whatever]" ?
10:23 Framedragger asciilifeform: yes that part is despicable, sure.
10:24 asciilifeform Framedragger: and enabling, is not despicable?
10:24 Framedragger mircea_popescu: no; and in fact they did carry out experiments, in the sense of data being gathered (including new data - about the state of onion DHT.)
10:25 Framedragger asciilifeform: i don't see how this is enabling. by that metric, *everything* is enabling. someone used phuctor to hack into box, phuctor enabled them?
10:25 mircea_popescu Framedragger so if it does not make that statement, it imports, like any research paper EVER, the following "the authors have conducted a full review of extant literature relevant to their topic, and swear that the following list is complete and correct :"
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10:25 Framedragger they *did acknowledge the first study* (2012 - before phuctor.)
10:25 mircea_popescu this is usually included by the shorthand string "bibliography"
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10:25 Framedragger hmm.
10:25 mircea_popescu did they live up to what they swore to do, in your evaluation ?
10:25 asciilifeform as per mircea_popescu's old piece, 'They tend to show up late at parties because they figure they can always steal the cake anyway, so why bother go early ? Let the suckers figure out first - on their own dime - where the good cakes are'
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10:26 Framedragger mircea_popescu: i see what you mean. do you think this "it then necessarily follows" is truly "necessarily"? what do others think? i do see what you mean, tho.
10:26 mircea_popescu this chaining of knowledge, for your info, is the CORE of academia.
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10:26 mircea_popescu it exists in nothing and in no way outside of this. this is all it is. raping your students is not relevant
10:26 mircea_popescu failing to maintain the knowledge blockchain - is.
10:27 diana_coman Framedragger, the underlying issue from my point of view is that intellectual dishonesty essentially bars one from claiming to do research; they might be doing advertising, writing, experiments or anything else, but not research since they are not after finding things out as they are, but about finding something to eat or whatever
10:27 asciilifeform thing very quickly degenerates into gaggle of charlatans each of whom goes to look for who will believe him that 'i! i! invented the integral calculus!!!'
10:28 asciilifeform if you don't maintain the chain.
10:28 Framedragger mircea_popescu: i am quite content with their bibliography section. they did not include phuctor (but included the other studies before and after phuctor), and that is a failure on their part. they can be informed and will even perhaps address this point. that does not fail *the whole paper* in my books, however.
10:28 mircea_popescu and yes people take umbrage with very little bullshit, which is not unreasonable, because a) very little bullshit is never alone (we know this, because unlike the dicklets involved, we HAvE EXPERIENCE in the fucking field) and b) it doesn't take much to throw everything off, bullshit compounds while truth decays.
10:28 diana_coman " will even perhaps address this point." <- omfg
10:29 mircea_popescu Framedragger so it doesn't fail it in your book. what of it. i brought a whore to my grandma's dinner once, it didn't disqualify her in my book. that's what books are for.
10:29 Framedragger diana_coman: i don't believe that phuctor is *that* important, yes.
10:29 diana_coman very little bullshit allowed to stand quickly expands until there is (nor can there be) anything else than bullshit
10:29 diana_coman Framedragger, understand: this is not about "importance"
10:29 mircea_popescu Framedragger is this evaluation based on something outside or just emotional ?
10:29 Framedragger mircea_popescu: acknowledged; weak point on my end.
10:30 diana_coman it's like saying "oh, that guy is not 'important' hence his findings can be stolen"?
10:30 Framedragger mircea_popescu: not emotional; in fact i will go further and claim that *your* evaluation stems from a bit of butthurt (which is human, of course.)
10:30 mircea_popescu in what sense first (actually) biggest (actually) project to factor rsa is "not that important" ? who did something more important in the interval and what was it ?
10:30 diana_coman Framedragger, the issue is that it is RELEVANT
10:30 mircea_popescu you can claim all you want, but what's it to do with anything. for all you know i'm drunk. what's that change.
10:30 Framedragger diana_coman: you are forgetting the detail where phuctor wasn't the first to do what it did.
10:30 mircea_popescu except it is, in terms of scale.
10:30 asciilifeform Framedragger: are you familiar with what henninger et al claim to have done vs what they actually made public ?
10:31 mircea_popescu where's the pre-phuctor phuctor ? can i has links ? something ?
10:31 asciilifeform it is in terms of fucking ~publication of data~
10:31 mircea_popescu and please no hn posts of dorks patting each other on back over "meetings"
10:31 asciilifeform as in, replicability.
10:31 Framedragger asciilifeform: how little of the data is public is indeed *shameful*, and in that regard, phuctor should be lauded for making all data available.
10:31 mircea_popescu Framedragger this is a ridiculous stance. not published = not existing
10:31 shinohai ^
10:31 mircea_popescu what, "i invented cold fusion in 1985" ?
10:31 asciilifeform ^
10:32 Framedragger mircea_popescu: then all of the publications which do not publish raw data are null?
10:32 asciilifeform Framedragger: yes!!
10:32 mircea_popescu "oh yeah, he totally did, here's my testimonial" ??
10:32 mircea_popescu this is copywriting not research.
10:32 mircea_popescu Framedragger yep.
10:32 diana_coman Framedragger, yes, they are
10:32 mircea_popescu all publications which do not publish the data are newspaper articles.
10:32 asciilifeform Framedragger: this is why we fight.
10:32 Framedragger that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
↖
10:32 diana_coman and the fact that there is a lot of null published doesn't make it less null
10:32 mircea_popescu wtf else would they be and how would they be it.
10:33 mircea_popescu Framedragger this great stance happens to have been held for many years, sucyh as for instance when in 2010 diana_coman didn't sleep a weekend to liberate the ro min of edu's data.
10:33 mircea_popescu because it's the only fucking stance because what the everloving fuck.
10:33 Framedragger 100% of psychology papers including early publications; *most* of physics, etc etc.
10:33 mircea_popescu this was an "early publication" now ?
10:33 asciilifeform not replicable --> hokum.
10:33 asciilifeform period.
10:34 Framedragger look, i agree with this attitude; the ssh banners, etc etc are and will remain publicly available. these are *important* standards to have.
10:34 Framedragger i don't disagree there, of course.
10:34 mircea_popescu well so then what do you disagree with ?
10:34 Framedragger i take issue with disqualifying *everything* which does not also publish raw data, though.
10:34 mircea_popescu that we look down at people with "lower" standards ? that we deem "lower" == "absent" ?
10:34 mircea_popescu and why is that ?
10:34 Framedragger it's just too extreme, i believe, and *impractical* (i wonder, did feynman publish raw data?)
10:35 mircea_popescu practical is not a consideration
10:35 mircea_popescu the most practical thing is to write junklets about how potent and sexy obama is all day.
10:35 mircea_popescu THIS is why fucking science is science and not, again, palace literature.
10:36 mircea_popescu besides, you operate on the same exact paradigm, except when you deliberately turn off your brain and any sense of decency to participate with the empire of idiots. witness : if i now say "hey guise, i found way to crack asciilifeform 's key, will publish tomorow"
10:36 mircea_popescu will you mark it as "alf key craked" or "alf key maybe vulnerable, gotta read this tomorrow" ?
10:36 Framedragger well the latter, of course, but how you can stretch this example i'm not sure...
10:36 mircea_popescu early publication == newspaper article. not in any sense research paper.
10:37 mircea_popescu "oh, that hustler bit was interesting". same thing.
10:37 mircea_popescu Framedragger what stretch ? i did an "early publication" of my research! was worth jack shit to you!
10:37 mircea_popescu there's no stretch.
10:38 Framedragger to remark in jest, this makes my own work more easier because i can dismiss any cs papers relevant to $work if they deal with data but do not also publish data. "not science, boss!1"
10:38 asciilifeform or suppose asciilifeform threw his priv p,q to the crowd at his hanging. then henninger goes to another town , where they have nfi, and 'hey folx!! i broke this evildoer's rsa key!!! with new! algo'
10:40 asciilifeform Framedragger: unless you are in academia racket yourself, and get paid to participate in the idiot kakubi where 'i'll pretend your crapola has relation to reality, you -- pretend that mine does' -- you can safely ignore such 'research', yes
10:40 mircea_popescu and since we're discussion princeton : i wasn't going to say anything (which is why i didn't back then), but when some guy found metallic H ( see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-17#1628809 ) princeton idiots came with a replicating experiment and have been trying to replace the original author with themselves ever since. which is just about as shameful.
10:40 a111 Logged on 2017-03-17 15:23 mircea_popescu: https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.01634
10:40 asciilifeform no data -- not research.
10:40 asciilifeform i had nfi that this was a deep and difficult hurdle for anybody here.
10:40 Framedragger asciilifeform: i guess may as well try, hm
10:40 mircea_popescu of course replicating experiments are done all the time ; the important point being that they didn't identify theirs as such.
10:41 mircea_popescu (how not ? by not citing. hurr.)
10:41 mircea_popescu so it's not like i'm discussing "isolated incident". there's a very well established pattern of dishonest behaviour. not just at princeton, either.
10:41 shinohai Kickin' it Hanno style
10:41 Framedragger last note mircea_popescu, paper in question does acknowledge the fact that as regards rsa factorisation, their attempt is a *replication* (unless i misread). but yes, should be beaten for not mentioning phuctor.
10:42 asciilifeform or the xray-from-scotchtape thing. (minor find, but exemplary of 'ru untermenschen can be safely stolen from')
10:42 asciilifeform Framedragger: the entire purpose of that paper is to pour cement over phuctor.
10:42 Framedragger whaaat.
10:42 mircea_popescu Framedragger how the forklet of frauds is constructed exactly is of no interest. yes they keep coming up with mealy-mouthed ways to try and hide the fact that they';re dishonest. fine.
10:42 asciilifeform if you cannot see this -- i cannot help. willful blindness.
10:43 Framedragger right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
↖
10:43 mircea_popescu "oh, we said we were a replication -- just, not of the right thing!" , typical americana "this will hold until someone looks at it". from the legal system to everywhere else, country's chock full of that hopeful nonsense.
10:43 mircea_popescu Framedragger not like you have to, ever. for as long as you find it pays for you, by all means.
10:44 mircea_popescu i don't find it pays for me.
10:44 mircea_popescu not a matter of some grandstanding oughts here. very cold calculation, it just dun pay. ymmv.
10:48 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637836 << it's basically the only criteria, it's why thinking people throw out the climate simulacra
10:48 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 14:43 Framedragger: right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
10:49 ben_vulpes "138kloc of cpp written by grad students? that i can't have? that only runs on golden toilet supercomputer? mmmok"
10:50 mircea_popescu eh, people get actual climate datasets all the time, end up exposing "data regularization" in the sense of "our definition of average ocean temperature is = largest measured +3, wut, problem??" it gets reported, people who can think read, people who can't think upvote each other on hn, etc.
10:53 ben_vulpes there is that, doesn't change that sim is unpublished part of system on basis of which claims are being made
10:53 mircea_popescu yeah. well, it got force-published once, to much "unhappened" hangwringing and posturing.
10:54 mircea_popescu was the lulz of all time, too. ~excel calculation.
10:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637792 << this for the record is quite false. there's a lot of research published, up until when the "our democracy" imbeciles saw themselves in the position of "running things" and they came up with the current pseudo-academic nonsense. i suppose "bologna system" +- a decade or two.
10:56 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 14:32 Framedragger: that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
10:56 mircea_popescu (for they who don't know, bologna is how you say baloney.)
10:57 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: "of under the"
10:58 * diana_coman sees a bit of a younger Diana's shock along the lines of "it can't really be true that 99% of the world I live in is actually rotten to the core" on re-reading Framedragger's replies
10:59 Framedragger maybe. :) i'm aware that most of it is ~crap, but this is more like "99.99%" vs. 99%. also, i'll make a note to check if feynman included data in any publications which dealt with data (i.e. not only pure models.)
10:59 BingoBoingo ty fxd ben_vulpes
11:00 asciilifeform Framedragger: feynman was a ~theorist~
11:00 mircea_popescu i'd like to hear the return of that.
11:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah he did some safecracking work
11:00 asciilifeform lolyes
11:00 mircea_popescu it's a well chosen example. he might well not have. because "o noes, laws".
11:00 asciilifeform and collegues'wifefucking
11:00 Framedragger and did calculations on computor, too (but not sure if relevant to any research)
11:01 mircea_popescu anyway, the most this'll do is make feynman more dubious, not the anti-principle more acceptable.
11:01 Framedragger yesyes that i understand. :)
11:01 mircea_popescu but not a bad review, certainly not wasted time imo.
11:01 Framedragger "on review, legit science is 19 publications"
11:02 diana_coman Framedragger, if it adds up to "only 30 papers in TOTAL" it means you are not going back long enough really
11:02 mircea_popescu may be "30 papers since 2016ish"
11:02 mircea_popescu eg the one in fundamental physics i quoted above does include.
11:03 mircea_popescu it's not like genuine science isn't made by genuine scientists. the pretense to the contrary is the other half of the scum delusion. cannonically "you have no option BUT to build raft out of lcd".
11:03 mircea_popescu that thing is of two parts : a) broke your house and b) there's nothing else.
11:03 mircea_popescu defeating a does not mean i'll now accept b, the whole fucking point is to extirpate the empire of stupid, not to drive in one branch by the measure driving the other out.
11:05 mircea_popescu this, incidentally, is how the middle class ended up poor : "a) we are living above our means and headed for bankruptcy, but b) our means are so disproportionate to our living by now that attempting to live within our means can not be called living!!1"
11:05 mircea_popescu supposedly this is an unsolvable dilemma, at least for any housewife that's never met the whip.
11:12 asciilifeform naggum had interesting piece re subj, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3144868668727852@naggum.no.html
11:14 mircea_popescu actually the first quote in there is vaguely covered in eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633686
11:14 a111 Logged on 2017-03-29 06:59 mircea_popescu: they drew the conclusion that optionality is not enough, and work safety must be provided through regulation.
11:14 mircea_popescu this is a fundamental problem in humans, that they'll take overdangerous work.
11:14 mircea_popescu amply documented (though mostly in early 1900s work, so i guess from a certain perspective lost by now)
11:15 asciilifeform that ain't a problem. it's how the poison cherries get tasted, oceans -- explored, embrasures -- plugged
11:15 mircea_popescu pretty much.
11:15 asciilifeform problem is the modern 'everybody's a winner' nonsense.
11:15 asciilifeform not the risk-taking.
11:15 mircea_popescu it's (unsurprisingly) a male trait, and a young'un trait, which explains other things too
11:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i didn't mean problem as in "bad thing to fix" i meant problem as in "legitimate topic"
11:16 asciilifeform aah
11:17 mircea_popescu it's for instance one of the best bio-based challenges to say rational economic agent theory.
11:17 asciilifeform people ain't entirely not-bees, noose at eleven.
11:18 mircea_popescu see, this is what i mean by problem : it's not even clear if this is a more-bee or less-bee characteristic!
11:18 asciilifeform embrasure-plugger ~= bee
11:18 mircea_popescu bee takes no risks. got its recipe, follows it.
11:19 asciilifeform the risk taken by soldier is just as imaginary an object.
11:19 mircea_popescu this can be argued. but then again ~all war literature proposes the contrary
11:19 mircea_popescu (i mean here, 1st person accounts, no wankery)
11:19 asciilifeform if bee could 'hamsterize' like a human coward, would think same thought
11:20 asciilifeform what i mean is, 'risk' is an item just like, e.g., negative integers
11:21 asciilifeform in reality, you're either mained/killed , or not.
11:21 asciilifeform see also everett...
11:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so is your proposition that "marry good man ; make him good children" = same thought any bee'd think if born of Γιατί μόνο εσείς, οι Λάκαινες, έχετε εξουσία πάνω στους άνδρες ?
11:21 asciilifeform aha
11:21 mircea_popescu i can't evaluate this./
11:22 asciilifeform *maimed
11:24 mircea_popescu incidentally, a couple of people asked for details and i linked them the logs, if noobs show up do me a favour and up'em.
~ 39 minutes ~
12:04 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637554 << why is pubkey being known so bad?
12:04 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 13:04 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
12:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the traditional explanation is, 'ecdsa break fucks people with known pubkeys, but not those for whom only hash is known'
12:07 asciilifeform ftr i disagree, it'll fuck everyone who is sitting on bitcoin
12:07 asciilifeform just not with same end of the dildo
12:08 asciilifeform the traditional notion is 'ecdsa breaks ? folx who have hash-only outputs can simply use them as lamport signatures'
12:08 asciilifeform but this is dubious imho.
12:10 asciilifeform it is a little bit like saying 'if nsa finds algo that breaks 70% of ecdsa keyspace, the remainder is still ok and 30% of bitcoin addrs will remain safe, bitcoin lives on'
12:11 ben_vulpes as soon as one attempts to spend from one of those hashed addresses you're in a race with everyone to get the txn confirmed though
12:11 ben_vulpes i dunno how ecdsa break is not bullet for btc
12:11 asciilifeform bullet.
~ 32 minutes ~
12:44 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637536 << worthy project i think :)
12:44 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 03:19 lobbes smells a tmsr archive server in the future
12:44 asciilifeform Framedragger: imho it is tricky: you can't simply 'curl' or 'wget', gotta somehow render crapolade if caching heathen sites
12:45 asciilifeform and also not very useful without a secret (uci!11) net of proxies
12:45 Framedragger yeah yeah, and i recall discussion about how archive.is does this (phf had some notes), etc.; it's quite icky.
12:45 Framedragger hm yeah.
12:46 Framedragger all doable, but relatively tricky (of the icky kind, i.e., one has to try out some things, and will end up with a set of semi-hacks due to webstack being one large hack.)
12:46 asciilifeform i can think of 1 fairly easy method for rendering (there is , iirc, a 'headless chromium' or something like) but the problem is that if you run it on bare iron, it'll be perma-owned.
12:47 asciilifeform ideally you want it running in a qemu-like thing with randomly-generated instruction set. and that reverts to known bitstate on every shot.
12:47 Framedragger asciilifeform: known bitstate, you mean, a unique fingerprint exposed to websites?
12:47 asciilifeform no
12:47 asciilifeform i meant machine state
12:48 asciilifeform contents of ram and cpu registers.
12:49 Framedragger ah. well, i can imagine a fleet of VMs (on an ok-to-be-pwned, of course) emulating browser for this.
12:49 asciilifeform that'd be the naive implementation , yes
12:49 asciilifeform in practice there is an immediate problem , long before it gets owned, even
12:49 asciilifeform astronomical expense under heavy use (and/or abuse)
12:50 Framedragger this was addressed, no? restrict to in-channel use, and/or l1+l2 or something or other.
12:50 Framedragger archive.is already serves the "for the all peoples" function.
12:51 Framedragger all the*
12:51 Framedragger ok-to-be-pwend box*
12:51 asciilifeform 'in channel use' is problematic, because enemy then knows what is being archived.
12:51 asciilifeform there is NO reason to tell him ahead of time.
12:52 Framedragger enemy which knows and tracks this but which is not capable of extracting/tracking current requests to archive.is?
12:52 Framedragger also, private message access.
12:52 asciilifeform i'd like to see ~less~ reliance on ictronic quasiauthentication, not more.
12:52 asciilifeform *irc
12:53 Framedragger hey, who wouldn't, brother
12:53 Framedragger thing is, the irc wrapper on top of gpg challenge-response is *thin* (at least in, say, scriba), and easily removable/changeable.
12:54 Framedragger but i guess you're saying that this particular archiver would rely on irc state (otherwise quite cumbersome to do challenge-response per every url request), which of course is quite bad.
12:54 Framedragger but then if things are coded correctly, it shouldn't be hard to swap irc for gossipd later, imho
12:55 Framedragger i.e., the interface of the 'is_this_request_coming_from_legit should not be too irc-specific.
13:00 Framedragger can also make irc-independent endpoint (http or w/e) which does WoT gpg challenge-response. prototype would speak a thousand words though, i suppose. :)
13:01 Framedragger ^ re. endpoint, oops no need for *challenge*, just a specific format for gpg-signed msg. (this is basically mpex interface, i guess.)
~ 20 minutes ~
13:22 asciilifeform the js crapolade problem is also imho serious.
13:22 asciilifeform i even suspect that the closest thing to a final solution would be the extract a ~bitmap~ from simulated browser, and then embed OCR info !
13:22 asciilifeform rather than to try to get the text out in the customary way.
13:23 asciilifeform the most egregious heathens ('mainstream media' organs etc) worked quite hard to make their www ~unarchivable, and largely -- succeeded
13:23 phf that's what archive.is technically does. the js problem is "solved" by letting the jser do it's thing and get the ~dom~ into some state. archive.is actually stores the resultant dom rather than original html
13:23 asciilifeform (turn off js, and the text -- vanishes. store the js without executing -- the archive READER will attempt to load it ! from enemy ! )
13:24 asciilifeform phf: this works when it works.
13:24 asciilifeform lately i've been seeing sites that yield a blank archive.is page.
13:24 asciilifeform more and more often.
13:26 Framedragger curious if latter is due to js emulator not being 'good enough', or blacklisting (who dares archive us!1)
13:26 phf i've been browsing the web using dillo/netserf from openbsd box and realized just how broken it become compared to even 5 years ago. only places that you can still render on old browser are the backalleys. uncle al style homepages, tmsr, *chans
13:26 asciilifeform aha
13:26 asciilifeform if you want, whichever, the beobachter, or even 'arse technica', etc -- fuhgetit
13:27 phf Framedragger: in case of archive.is there's no "js emulator". it's proper js. usually what happens is that your browser sends various events when the network load is complete, and the dom is rendered
13:27 phf after the events though there's still potentially a few ticks while js assembles the page
13:27 phf customary you put a few second timeout, but even that might not be enough
13:28 Framedragger hmm. i suddenly became concerned with potential failed archival requests from scriba - will check log (iirc not many failures, tho - otherwise would know.)
13:28 asciilifeform no, no reason it would be obvious
13:28 asciilifeform plenty of things just happily serve up a blank page to the archiver.
13:29 Framedragger asciilifeform: i sometimes check "archived sites" log (separate file) and it looks ~healthy (but no deep inspection).
13:29 Framedragger ah *that*; i see what you mean
13:29 Framedragger hrm.
13:29 Framedragger but this web
13:29 phf also, these days you have js packing frameworks (like browserify) doing frontend on-demand js loads, which means that ~browser~ doesn't know when page load is complete. you get "lightweight" pages, that don't actually have anything until 8mb of javascript gets its shit together.
13:29 Framedragger fuck*
13:30 asciilifeform phf: recall, recent lulznews item, a certain lamestream news www uses 100MB/hr while page open
13:30 Framedragger this is PTSD material
13:32 Framedragger so, if tmsr were to have its own archiver, i don't think archive.is' approach is the way to go, even though it is (arguably, maybe) the most 'reliable' / 'true' (actual js rendering in browser). exposing user to JS defeats half its purpose. imho.
13:32 doppler "constantly horrified" is my universal internet status
13:32 Framedragger :/
13:32 asciilifeform Framedragger: imho a more reasonable thing would be a command line thing, a kind of augmented curl, that yields a tarball
13:32 phf Framedragger: you don't have to expose the user to js with archive.is approach
13:32 asciilifeform which l1 folx can then sign and upload.
13:33 asciilifeform this would solve the 'blocked ip' problem. but at the same time introduce new ones.
13:33 Framedragger phf: you mean, js rendering done server-side? sorry i got confused i guess
13:33 asciilifeform i don't actually know of a sane way to do this job. which is why i have not ever attempted to do it.
13:33 asciilifeform problem might not have a sane+general solution.
13:33 mircea_popescu the "insulate from js" is absolutely major.
13:34 asciilifeform ^
13:34 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes it's not measurably bad. theoretically it weakens the problem of "spend somone else's inputs".
13:34 phf Framedragger: yes, archive.is is a headless webkit. it loads the page with all the resources, it lets the javascript run until the DOM is in some "final" state, it snapshots the DOM. at this point you no longer need javascript to further render page
↖
13:35 asciilifeform and not merely from the 'js 0day' pov !!
13:35 asciilifeform but ~strictly~ from an archivist's
13:35 Framedragger asciilifeform: standalone command line program makes sense indeed (and can be 'wrapped' in web/irc service if need be, later)
13:35 asciilifeform i.e. a js-containing turdball is not self-contained
13:35 asciilifeform can be remote-manipulated at a later date.
13:35 asciilifeform (today it calls load_party_line_from_washinton() and it gets one thing; tomorrow -- another)
13:35 Framedragger phf: ah, but i meant the initial rendering phase - the 'archive this plz' process itself. but thanks for clarifying yeah
13:35 mircea_popescu ah i see alf addressed. it's an exercise in typical expertsexchange wankery, total misunderstanding of engineering etc.
13:36 asciilifeform the js, if it executes (and to archive heathenry, it generally must) must execute ONCE.
13:36 asciilifeform and preferably in a designated public toilet
13:36 phf Framedragger
13:36 phf err
13:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha, hence headless etc.
13:36 Framedragger asciilifeform: as phf said, archive.is output does not contain js. just to clarify.
13:36 asciilifeform yeah, i suspect that it is built along the lines described earlier
13:37 phf doesn't have to contain rather. i'm sure they don't scrape it diligently enough.
13:37 Framedragger myeah
13:37 asciilifeform but consequently suffers other problems (it is trivially blocked, and is in fact trivially distinguishable in real time from 'civilian' browser)
13:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> ideally you want it running in a qemu-like thing with randomly-generated instruction set. << this may be overkill. could as well run it in a rom-os machine or something.
13:38 asciilifeform i (with handful of other folx) once built exactly such a machine, for executing winblowz virii
13:38 asciilifeform it wasn't cheap, or simple, or +ev.
13:38 mircea_popescu aha
13:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the ocr idea is miserable, sadly, because so many glyphs and nonsense.
13:39 asciilifeform i wonder what the state of the art for blind folx is.
13:39 asciilifeform could try picking up ~that~, and reusing.
13:39 phf state of the art for blind folx is misserable.
13:40 asciilifeform what if you were to use a patched glyph renderer ?
13:40 asciilifeform machine-wide.
13:40 Framedragger i can ask one such folk ('camlorn on #libaudioverse - has his own 3d audio library, competent at what he does). i recall him explaining the shitshow that was getting cs degree by translating cs paper pdf (horror)
13:40 phf basically agent on top of internet explorer/others that, with a specially annotated page (ARIA standard) can make the experience usable
13:40 asciilifeform anything that asks a glyph to be drawn on the raster display -- instead ends up creating a 'haha, glyph G was asked for' record.
13:41 asciilifeform and fuck the display.
13:41 Framedragger asciilifeform: best software / environment by his recollection was on windows, which was sadnews
13:42 phf asciilifeform: that is not though how rendering works on "modern os". unlike x there's no central authority on glyph rendering. instead you have layers of surfaces that each app manages on its own.
13:42 Framedragger ^ sorry meant "*math* paper pdf" (think, formula in shit format). eughhh
13:42 asciilifeform phf: at some point it invokes the truetype engine, neh
13:42 asciilifeform so you catch it there.
13:43 mircea_popescu phf> state of the art for blind folx is misserable. << about same as in 1997.
13:43 asciilifeform find all copies of it and patch'em all.
13:43 mircea_popescu Framedragger does "jaws" still work/exist ?
13:43 phf but it doesn't invovoke truetype ~as one last pass~. instead you have fifty different truetype invocations to lay out a small surface, that's placed into an hierarchy of such surfaces
13:43 mircea_popescu ^
13:44 mircea_popescu i even linked some lulz re idiot font loading in wwwturds.
13:44 Framedragger mircea_popescu: not familiar / wouldn't know. my exposure to the whole thing was literally just "found relevant library; hop on irc to ask the author; chat for a while; realise he's blind; ask about his experience"
13:44 mircea_popescu a ok.
13:45 mircea_popescu i suspect alf is blessfully unaware of what utter shitshow fonts / glyphs are irl. and bid him keep his innocence
13:45 mircea_popescu for it gave other men ulcers.
13:45 Framedragger (http://camlorn.net/pages/resume.html for curious)
13:46 doppler too bad web developers ever received the power to control the rendering of their sites so closely
13:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually i have a fairly accurate idea. but last time i opened the reactor cover, at least there was ~1~ copy of truetype shitfest running per box...
13:46 mircea_popescu doppler but you know, when people get self-determination and the right to make their own decisions, everything improves.
13:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not the case anymore afaik.
13:47 doppler what about the website-viewer's right to make their own decisions?
13:47 doppler it goes both ways
13:47 mircea_popescu sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit.
13:47 phf asciilifeform: there's ~one~ true type library, but it's called at random times to render a small part of the page, so by simply following the invocations you won't be able to reconstruct how the individual results fit into the on-screen
13:49 mircea_popescu phf provided eg "java runtime fonts" aren't there on top of x11-fonts etc
13:49 phf a sentence like "hello world this is test" might get an invocation like render("world this") followed by render("hello") followed by render("is test"), simply because higher level widget engine decided that's the order of exposure, or hierarchy, or whatever
13:49 asciilifeform pdfization, more or less, sounds like.
13:49 asciilifeform 'wanna know the output? run this massive turing-complete barrel of shit'
13:49 mircea_popescu it's the way of the future ; everything is connected etc.
13:49 phf right, not to mention competing rendering engines ("system wide library doesn't kern glyphs the way our ui designer thinks is appropriate so we do it ourselves!!1")
13:50 mircea_popescu right.
13:50 mircea_popescu (this happens a lot more than anyone sane would on his own power imagine)
13:51 mircea_popescu "why THE FUCK do you want to mess with the fonts" "because we truly have nothing to do with our time" "Do you understand reading speed decreases 3x if the reader has to deal with unfamiliar typefaces ?" "uuga booga"
13:51 mircea_popescu half literate fucktards, all typefaces are new to them all the time.
13:51 asciilifeform 'and, bonus! evil TERRORISTS! can't archive it!'
13:52 * CompanionCube sometimes wishes we could banish entirely-JS 'websites' from the face of the earth
13:52 asciilifeform which is why i half-seriously suggested 'archiver oughta be a rack of instrumented ipads and ocrtron'
13:52 asciilifeform it's the only way to 'perma-archive EXACTLY what plebes see'. supposing that is a design goal.
13:53 mircea_popescu im not sure it's a design goal.
13:53 doppler I'm so glad flash player sites are mostly gone now, but JS has just taken its place really
13:53 mircea_popescu im not even sure wtf the design goals would be, which is why we're wallowing
13:53 asciilifeform precisely, it's why asciilifeform has not touched the problem.
13:53 asciilifeform not sure it ~is~ a problem.
13:53 CompanionCube asciilifeform: problem is that ipads will display different to desktop
13:53 asciilifeform the actual problem may be something else.
13:53 CompanionCube and since you will most likely want desktop version...
13:53 mircea_popescu doppler flash is stiull live and well in the "browsere games" niche. heck, adobe recently made new linux flash (after years of stfu)
13:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu wants to archive browser-tetris ?!
13:54 mircea_popescu well i didn't want to archive "artists" flash bs in 2007 either
13:54 doppler haha
13:54 asciilifeform the use of 'flash' to output ~text~ articles -- has, afaik, mercifully, died.
13:54 doppler ^-- that's what I was referring to.
13:54 mircea_popescu honestly i'm not even sure i actually want to archive, eg, fake news sites.
13:55 asciilifeform that's largely what archivetron was ~for~, to date, neh
13:55 mircea_popescu neh.
13:55 asciilifeform a pill against memory hole.
13:55 CompanionCube flash-for-games is at least personally
13:55 CompanionCube tolerable
13:55 mircea_popescu at least to my eyes, archiving to date was there to provide a sort of cheaper and lighter deedbotting for webpages.
13:55 mircea_popescu but the majority of those webpages were republican rather than imperial.
13:57 mircea_popescu i suppose this is part of the problem of "wtf were the design goals again ?" -- swiss knife syndrome, many things for many people at many different times.
13:59 asciilifeform 'deedbot for arbitrary www links' sounds like the right thing.
13:59 asciilifeform but in practice is monstrously gnarly.
14:00 mircea_popescu yeah. it sounds like the right thing but in the process of so sounding hides under a welded shut hood all the design trade-offs which'll need to be made.
14:00 mircea_popescu else any random rustard can throw a wrench in your whole thing. "gotta support fdlkgjkldfjl!!~11"
14:00 Framedragger (i suppose an imperfect ('may fail on particularly gruesome imperial sites', say) prototype as a *standalone command line program* would make sense.)
14:00 mircea_popescu Framedragger would be nice, but conceivably you'd be stuck bolting js to links or such
14:01 Framedragger not necessarily.
14:01 Framedragger !#s selenium
14:01 a111 14 results for "selenium", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=selenium
14:01 mircea_popescu ah interesting
14:01 CompanionCube isn't that for automatic website testing
14:01 CompanionCube doesn't seem that good of a fit
14:01 asciilifeform selenium + civilian wwwbrowser is 1 way.
14:01 Framedragger we use it for website-with-loads-of-js-logic scraping
14:01 asciilifeform has obvious problems (massive cpu expense, and cleanup)
14:01 Framedragger worx. (heavier than scrapy in that can handle 'need js to click on 'next' button' logic)
14:01 Framedragger asciilifeform: tru.
14:02 asciilifeform i have a cl interface to selenium written from some years ago, i used it to cheat spammers
14:02 Framedragger CompanionCube: that's just one use case, to be clear
14:02 asciilifeform it's only a 'remote control' for traditional www browser.
14:03 Framedragger (and that use case existing is good signal in this case)
14:03 mircea_popescu i suppose in principle could exist as an "proper archival browser extension". i suppose very close to what ppl like browsershots etc do
14:04 mircea_popescu part of the problem being that common browser instructed to "Save page" will proceed to save the html rather than the dom, or however you call the ast in www.
14:06 Framedragger quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
↖
14:06 mircea_popescu danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
↖
14:06 mircea_popescu Framedragger quite yeah.
14:07 mircea_popescu danielpbarron for the record it's snippet not snippit
14:07 asciilifeform the loading per se, with civilian browser + e.g., selenium, is trivial. the ~cleanup~ (run in vm? restore state how ?) is the tricky bit.
14:09 Framedragger asciilifeform: do you mean that "single archive request handled by dedicated process which terminates at end of request" wouldn't be enough in terms of cleanup? (due to js as vector of attack to machine?)
14:10 mircea_popescu somethinglikethat
14:10 asciilifeform aha.
14:10 asciilifeform running a js is like fucking hiv whore.
14:10 asciilifeform yes, will take you 9001 shots for the roulette revolver to fire.
14:10 asciilifeform in the end you're just as dead.
14:10 mircea_popescu more liek being the whore.
14:12 mircea_popescu o hey, leningrad metro blew up yest
14:12 Framedragger i wonder if "can run archive requests on 'uncleaned' (i.e.: already possibly infected) VM" could be allowed for. it's not exactly a gpg-signed-msg timestamping service.
14:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: day before
14:12 asciilifeform major wank there, also
14:12 mircea_popescu ah
14:12 Framedragger mircea_popescu: lenin returned to russia 100 years ago in april. COINCIDENCE?
14:12 asciilifeform 'usg did it!1' 'putler did it!11' etc
14:12 mircea_popescu o.O
14:12 mircea_popescu can lenin burning melt steel ?
14:12 asciilifeform sop narrative, the pantsuit folx are automagically 'putler did it'
14:13 asciilifeform before the corpses cold, even.
14:13 CompanionCube why would putin bomb their own place like that
14:13 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1638105 << dumping dom is not hard (it's innerhtml attribute on document.body/head), extracting images/objects is harder. used to be able to do it using canvas, but not there's security provisions. you literally have to go into the browser's cache (via internal apis) to got the graphic, etc. back. or else redownload, which is rife with potential issues
↖
14:13 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 Framedragger: quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
14:13 mircea_popescu wait, putin bombed his own loyal subjects ? what is he supposed to be, bahamas ?
14:13 asciilifeform CompanionCube: same reason bush did ?
14:14 mircea_popescu i dunno "same reason ustard did it" applies outside of "the country"
14:14 CompanionCube asciilifeform: but putin wouldn't get much more power unlike bush
14:14 Framedragger phf: ugggghhh. (now i recall you possibly mentioning this in relation to archive.is; i see i see.. that's what they do)
14:14 mircea_popescu phf o whoa
14:15 phf Framedragger: right, you have dom, you have running javascript, can do all kinds of things to dump/before dump. what you don't have through any legitimate means is the byte sequence for a linked object. at least with headless webkit (via Qt) you can instrument cache with special methods that would give you that data. selenium not at all
14:16 Framedragger yes i see. amazing.
14:17 Framedragger ty for fixing model in head. even more sad now
14:17 mircea_popescu akbarjon djalilov. sounds legit.
14:19 Framedragger CompanionCube: i checked and apparently selenium is primarily branded as 'automation framework' - you're right (but folx use it for scraping)
14:20 mircea_popescu i've been meditating on this, wtf is www even for, again ?
14:20 asciilifeform CompanionCube: are you familiar with 'juche' ?
14:20 CompanionCube asciilifeform: the north korean ideology? not really.
14:20 asciilifeform it is thought to be a trademark of north kr, but really goes back to the time of confucius
14:20 mircea_popescu o.O
14:20 asciilifeform represents one of the possible 'magnetic poles' for a small, unimportant country living next to great empire
14:20 mircea_popescu alf is kim jong lol convert ?!
14:21 asciilifeform alf is not expert on the east, but knows a little of the insider wank, and suspects that it is relevant, so:
14:21 asciilifeform juche ~= 'we may be savages, and our trucks have wheels with bamboo spokes, but they are OUR trucks'
14:22 asciilifeform there is an opposite of it, that you don't get to hear about much,
14:22 asciilifeform represented by south kr,
14:22 asciilifeform i forget the original term, but translates to eng as something like 'kowtow' (originally itself a corruption of chinese word)
14:22 asciilifeform means 'bow to the great ones'
14:23 asciilifeform orc elites tend to fall into 'juche' xor 'kowtow'.
14:23 mircea_popescu and you propose juche is defensible ?
14:23 asciilifeform su -- maybe 80% juche; 90s ru -- 90% kowtow ; modern ru -- though i observe from afar -- maybe half.
14:24 mircea_popescu seems to me ~= to the idiocy in http://trilema.com/2014/the-death-of-taxes/#footnote_4_55254
14:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in the sense where 'let! whole world gang up on our tiny country, we will soldier on' it is not a shining success, no.
14:24 mircea_popescu what happened to "butcher all the males, sell all the females into prostitution", like god intended ?
14:24 mircea_popescu that's the correct solution to "we all started in 5k bc, but zee germanz got tanks first"
14:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i am making an observation here, rather than prescription. (teaching tiny and hopelessly outnumbered eastern monkeystans how to kill billion-man enemy -- is above my pay grade)
14:26 mircea_popescu but what is the observation ?
14:26 asciilifeform that there are two basic flavours of how orc reacts to learning about the white man.
14:26 mircea_popescu ah. yeah, granted.
14:27 asciilifeform assimilationist ('i'ma go to new york and suck white cock the rest of my days') or irredentist ('i'ma learn to ride horses, shoot rifles, and kill as many of them as i can')
14:27 mircea_popescu as for instance the recent princeton thing may have suggested, /me is not at all fond of this juche business.
14:27 asciilifeform not sure how connects ?
14:28 Framedragger (the latter (irredentist) in my mind are filed under 'reactionary' (maybe not the right word), yeah; iac, many fall into these, it seems)
14:28 asciilifeform Framedragger: twist: the part of ru that has any kind of intellectual or even biological future -- is the juche.
14:29 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what do you suppose their wankery is, besides "oh, we got nothing but teh fighting spirit! princeton lives on!11"
14:29 Framedragger this almost seems worth of an asciilifeformitonic article
14:29 Framedragger worthy*
14:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that is drastically untrue. the part that has any sort of intellectual future is the butchering of the failed males.
14:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd bet they see ~us~ as the outnumbered zulu. not themselves.
14:30 mircea_popescu this is a delusion shared by all orcs, including the original jucheans.
14:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: by the time you have 'failed males' lined up for butchery, it's game over, and no one remembers the internal wank.
14:31 asciilifeform subj is about not-quite-dead people.
14:31 mircea_popescu note that at the time british liutenant fucked "empress of true sky blabla" because he felt like it that day, the english were also "outnumbered"
14:31 mircea_popescu pity headcount doesn;t do anything by itself.
14:31 asciilifeform for instance, who butchered which failed males in korean war ?
14:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E836F842CBA3F5EFFCD4C2F99AA5A990C0EA103949008980CF48E5F741D11023 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1498...8037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '95.141.113.130 (ssh-rsa key from 95.141.113.130 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR R 49)
14:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E836F842CBA3F5EFFCD4C2F99AA5A990C0EA103949008980CF48E5F741D11023 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1769...0853 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '95.141.113.130 (ssh-rsa key from 95.141.113.130 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR R 49)
14:31 asciilifeform was, what, 5 mil . from both sides, approx same, iirc.
14:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i was being prescriptive, not descriptive.
14:31 asciilifeform it is not yet decided which side was 'failed males, for butcher.'
14:31 mircea_popescu the correct path forward to "make america great again" is to kill everyone male and ship everyone female to beijing for auctioning off.
14:32 asciilifeform somewhere in ancient assyria, a great general fell into time warp, went missing !
14:32 mircea_popescu a much milder version of this is how, eg, russia came back ; and certainly how china even became a thing wihin our lifetimes.
14:32 asciilifeform (and is walking around today!!111)
14:32 mircea_popescu when mp was a wee tyke, china was a kind of ghana.
14:33 CompanionCube !$ ssh 95.141.113.130
14:33 scriba ssh banner of 95.141.113.130 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
14:36 mircea_popescu did i recount the story of the very respectable fellow who lived with us for a week or so early 90s ?
14:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: south kr (or, specifically, the american puppet gov there) was quintessential 'kowtow' : their first dictator was quite equiv. to a figure like quisling, even had a medal personally pinned on him by hirohito -- for hunting partisans in the north (partisans of whom kim the 1st was the chief, incidentally)
14:36 asciilifeform which is the 'failed males' ?
14:37 asciilifeform i dare say, the ones that put on the cock cages ~voluntarily~ -- are.
14:37 mircea_popescu all the speakers of the failed language.
14:38 asciilifeform if the sun were still shining on the brit empire, and 'no shit , the monkeys are monkeys, we simply haven't gotten around to rendering them for meat and occupying the valuable lands' -- this position would be tenable.
14:41 mircea_popescu hey, what can i tell you. if you were in the town when the town caught a little fire, uncle celestial teapot wants you. noli turbare circulos meos may work, but just as well may not work.
14:42 mircea_popescu merv, or generally the mongol reduction of persia from a coupla million to a coupla hundred thousand is the fundamental civilisational act. not the building of the scum, but the purging of it. much like "writing prb" is not an achievement in computer science ; but purging it into trb is.
↖
14:43 asciilifeform garbagecollector lol
14:43 mircea_popescu not even. selector.
14:46 asciilifeform but, upstack : it is not yet clear which the 'failed language' is.
14:46 asciilifeform not until game properly over.
14:46 mircea_popescu well, hopefully it becomes.
14:51 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/04/majority-black-ferguson-missouri-re-elects-white-man-as-mayor/ << Qntra - Majority Black Ferguson Missouri Re-Elects White Man As Mayor
14:54 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1638106 << whatever the defaults. and before anyone says "why didn't you backup" -- I do have a mysqldump containing most of the articles. missing the last few between last dump and system death.
14:54 a111 Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
14:55 mircea_popescu reinstating from the dump is easy, just go into the bash and say mysql < file
14:55 danielpbarron biggest hurdle is getting my hands on a copy of mp-wp
14:55 mircea_popescu ugh. why ?
14:55 mircea_popescu who was maintaining that thing anyway!
14:55 shinohai danielpbarron: Didn't I give yu a copy?
14:55 danielpbarron i don't have a copy. maybe freenode dropped a line idk
14:56 mircea_popescu redo!
14:57 danielpbarron also i've been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out how to get LILO to work (should have taken notes the first time!!)
14:57 * shinohai checks his archives
14:58 mircea_popescu notes!
14:58 danielpbarron LILO is the last thing in my way of publishing a gentoo-quest for eulora recipe
14:58 mircea_popescu o hey!
14:58 asciilifeform lilo is pretty well documented
14:58 asciilifeform danielpbarron: or are we talking about exotic iron here
14:58 * mircea_popescu also uses lilo, what dun werk ?
14:59 CompanionCube any particular reason for lilo over syslinux or grub?
14:59 danielpbarron i don't think it's exotic. hp xw9400 workstation
14:59 danielpbarron lilo drags in way less code than grub
15:00 CompanionCube true, but so does <nearly any bootloader>
15:00 asciilifeform danielpbarron: phun phakt : that thing uses a relabeled remake of one of my favourite tyan mobos.
15:00 danielpbarron while on that subject: i hear it has hardware raid built in. do you recommend using this?
15:00 mircea_popescu CompanionCube grub is large.
15:01 asciilifeform danielpbarron: mine had an empty pad where the raid oughta be, so i have nfi
15:01 * CompanionCube would go for syslinux if smallness/simplicity was desired
15:01 asciilifeform it's a what, lsi chip ?
15:01 danielpbarron idk
15:01 asciilifeform danielpbarron: i have not tried it personally. but, given the vintage, i suspect that it is same chip as on my 3ware.
15:01 mircea_popescu look lol
15:01 asciilifeform or very similar.
15:02 asciilifeform and will work just as well (which is -- quite well.)
15:02 asciilifeform i.e. true hardware raid.
15:02 danielpbarron i can get lilo to show its kernel select menu, and then i tries over and over again (with seemingly random time before giving up) to load the kernel
15:03 asciilifeform danielpbarron: what are you booting from ?
15:03 mircea_popescu as in kernel panic of nothing ?
15:03 asciilifeform ( the raid ? plain sata ? )
15:03 danielpbarron plain sata
15:03 asciilifeform hm.
15:03 mircea_popescu "unable to sync kernel panic" anything ?
15:03 danielpbarron the kernel works. i tested it in grub2
15:04 danielpbarron the error code is 0xFF
15:04 mircea_popescu ah
15:05 mircea_popescu is that from the raid controller ? "unusual device" ?
15:05 mircea_popescu ie, are you sure you put the drive as the FIRST physical device in the "array" ?
15:05 danielpbarron hm
15:06 mircea_popescu because otherwise it doesn't loop and fails to find it.
15:06 danielpbarron that's worth checking out
15:06 danielpbarron i have lilo working on this machine infront of me that runs eulora, same hp workstation, but it is using an IDE cable to connect rather than sata
15:07 mircea_popescu iirc that bug was eventually fixed but possibly not in your version.
15:07 danielpbarron yeah lilo needs /boot to be in "the first 1024 cylinders of one of the first 2 drives"
15:08 asciilifeform danielpbarron: what happens if you set your sata (in bios) to 'legacy' mode ?
15:08 asciilifeform (i suspect that your lilo is not built with 'native' sata support)
15:13 shinohai danielpbarron: http://btcinfo.sdf.org/uploads/wp-mp.tar.gz
15:15 danielpbarron mind encrypting the sha512 of that to my key?
15:16 shinohai Sure one sec
15:16 danielpbarron er um, signing it too. or i can send you random string to enclude with it if you want
15:16 shinohai nah gimmie just a sec ill sign it
15:16 danielpbarron cool
15:16 shinohai !!key danielpbarron
15:16 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/155934BDD16E8EAF4493CB9CB36AE9849D961AC9.asc
15:18 danielpbarron asciilifeform, i don't see where i would set 'legacy' mode in my bios
15:20 asciilifeform it's a thing that has 2 modes, 'ahci' and 'legacy' (or 'compatibility')
15:20 asciilifeform tyan has the option
15:20 asciilifeform iirc coreboot(linuxbios) had a flag also
15:21 asciilifeform but i have nfi what hp has.
15:21 asciilifeform (incidentally if you go coreboot, you don't need a bootloader...)
15:28 asciilifeform danielpbarron: mega-advice from asciilifeform's house of pain : back up the eeprom !!!
15:28 asciilifeform before you experiment with handmade firmware.
15:28 danielpbarron heh, k
15:28 asciilifeform i recommend TL866 programmator.
15:29 asciilifeform afaik it is the ONLY ONE with documented interface and something like reasonable linux support.
15:29 * danielpbarron adds to notes
15:30 asciilifeform prior to it , i had a massive parallel port thing that needed two dozen jumpers moved when you changed chip types, and only really worked well from an emulated dos session.
15:30 asciilifeform threw it out, no regrets.
15:30 asciilifeform the chinese tl866 works for ~99% of known eproms, eeproms, GALs, PALs, micros.
15:30 asciilifeform (it is VERY frustrating when you find that one percent...)
15:31 asciilifeform afaik there is no known alternative to tl866 today other than 'spend a kilo$ and use dedicated winblowz box.'
15:32 asciilifeform http://www.autoelectric.cn/en/TL866_main.html << vendor www.
15:32 asciilifeform (forget about their software)
15:35 asciilifeform well, when you find an unsupported rom, there is always the last resort: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/mwredux/romsucker_large.png + http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/mwredux/romsucker_working.png + http://loper-os.nfshost.com/pub/mwrom/romsucker.tgz ...
15:36 asciilifeform ^ read it 'by hand'.
15:36 asciilifeform (writing -- harder; some chips have various unlockisms that have to be waltzed through first, or want a programming-voltage, or both)
15:36 Framedragger ouch
15:36 asciilifeform Framedragger: the relevant article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1066
15:36 Framedragger ah ty!
15:37 shinohai How to make a colorful rats-nest in 5,683 easy steps
15:37 asciilifeform shinohai: ftr that thing takes maybe half hour to lay out on breadboard. if you're out of practice.
15:39 asciilifeform danielpbarron: incidentally... if you're a brave man, you can get by without a programmator at all. hot-lift the chip, while box is running, insert blank chip, and reflash.
15:39 asciilifeform if you have a very steady hand, and own a plcc puller (fivebux or so, or look in the very bottom of your oldest toolbox) you can do this safely.
15:40 asciilifeform ( a booted up and warm pc, does not use the bios rom for anything at all. other than when you write to it. )
15:40 asciilifeform this is true since 1992 or so.
~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~
17:19 BingoBoingo !~bcstats
17:19 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 460569 | Current Difficulty: 4.99635929816E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 461663 | Next Difficulty In: 1094 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
17:22 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> it's a thing that has 2 modes, 'ahci' and 'legacy' (or 'compatibility') << I refer to these modes internally as "James Lafond Presents Baltimore" and "Antebellum Kitchen"
~ 1 hours ~
18:23 ben_vulpes > save pbs, it makes us safer
18:23 ben_vulpes > parent with television, it makes your life easier
18:23 ben_vulpes > die in a fire with everything you love
18:23 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: what's a pbs
18:24 ben_vulpes "public broadcasting service"
18:25 asciilifeform the thing that tells you when the nukes have dropped ?!
18:25 shinohai pubic broadcasting system
18:25 ben_vulpes no, the thing that plays sesame street so that you can play candy crush instead of parenting
18:25 asciilifeform 'if this were a REAL emergency...'
18:26 ben_vulpes "if you were a REAL human"
18:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i thought the latest fashion is that the ~kid~ plays tetris etc
18:26 asciilifeform while parent -- watches tv
18:26 ben_vulpes i have nfi what is in fashion
18:26 asciilifeform me neither
18:31 danielpbarron oh i heard one of those "if this was a real emergency" things that actually was an "emergency" -- it said a kid was missing, last seen... WITH FATHER
18:32 ben_vulpes outrageous
18:32 asciilifeform danielpbarron: that must be new, in the old dayz radio/tv stations in usa were fined megabux for switching on the emergency box by accident
18:32 asciilifeform (i.e. when nukes had not fallen)
18:32 danielpbarron never heard of amber alert?
18:32 asciilifeform so, danielpbarron , what, did it pop up on ALL public channels ?
18:32 danielpbarron is that just a connecticut thign?
18:32 ben_vulpes oh hey did i successfully turn amber alerts off?
18:32 phf i was about to refresh my openbsd version and discovered that openbsd no longer make/sell a 3-cd set. end of an era
18:33 asciilifeform danielpbarron: where i live they pop up on electric traffic signs (that normally warn of jams, or of how many years of jail drunks get, etc)
18:33 danielpbarron oo maybe my sets are collectables now
18:33 ben_vulpes danielpbarron: deed dems
18:33 * danielpbarron has several versions, unopened
18:33 danielpbarron heh
18:33 asciilifeform phf: microshit sponsorship 'grinds slowly but it grinds fine'
18:33 ben_vulpes lol are you one of those numismatic folks?
18:34 danielpbarron shamefully yes
18:34 phf asciilifeform: you some kind of terrorist?
18:34 asciilifeform evidently
18:34 ben_vulpes dia de si
18:34 asciilifeform i find it slightly outrageous that i have a pressed aluminum ratheadlinux from 1990s but not a pressed aluminum gcc4.9 or trb-genesis etc
18:34 danielpbarron i have an opened 5.5, i can start with that
18:36 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: can one even get discs 'pressed' anymore?
18:36 ben_vulpes a la lulu?
18:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: a la lulu is SPECIFICALLY NOT IT
18:36 asciilifeform thinkaboutit
18:36 danielpbarron what is the proper way to deed such an item? clearsign the sha512sum ?
↖
18:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: and yes - just need min qty of, what, 25,000 or so.
18:36 ben_vulpes danielpbarron: look at how mod6 did the turds
18:37 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: whole ~point~ is that it's expensive.
18:37 asciilifeform and immutable.
18:37 asciilifeform (it is not in fact practical to modify a pressed aluminum disk, with any current or foreseeable tech. mircea_popescu and asciilifeform had long thread about this at some point)
18:37 asciilifeform this however is not true of a 'burned' disk.
18:38 danielpbarron !!key mod6
18:38 ben_vulpes oh i'm sure i can modify a pressed aluminum disk
18:38 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/027A8D7C0FB8A16643720F40721705A8B71EADAF.asc
18:38 asciilifeform a stamped aluminum cd is second only to mask rom in longevity (i have cd 30+ yrs old) and immutability.
18:39 ben_vulpes perhaps will not spin after
18:39 asciilifeform it laughs at magnetic fields, ionizing radiation, oxygen.
18:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'modify' with microwave oven ain't the sort of modification i was speaking of, no.
18:39 ben_vulpes what is scope of 'modify' in this context; can stick in openly hostile machine?
18:39 asciilifeform nor with angle grinder.
18:39 ben_vulpes 20 TON PRESS
18:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: modify in this case means 'flip chosen bits'
18:40 phf well, i bought 5.9 "while supplies last", though i believe they are rolling out 6.1 next
18:42 asciilifeform incidentally danielpbarron were these actual pressed cd ?
18:42 asciilifeform to begin with
18:42 danielpbarron yes
18:42 asciilifeform neato!
18:42 danielpbarron i bought for exactly these reasons you are going over, back when obsd was still in favor here
18:42 asciilifeform was there any kind of announcement, e.g. 'we stopped because Nobody Wants and Expensive' ?
18:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> the thing that tells you when the nukes have dropped ?! << the original inventors of the telethon
18:43 phf they are nifty cds. with artwork and "theme" and a bonus mp3 that somehow fits the theme. the works. oldschool artifact
18:43 danielpbarron i stopped paying much attention to obsd a year+ ago
18:43 danielpbarron i also have a bunch of posters
18:43 danielpbarron actually i'm wearing the hoodie right now, hah
18:44 asciilifeform lulzy/numismatic; i never had a linux/bsd poster, or cd set, or statue, etc
18:44 danielpbarron says openbsd in a "jesus fish" that's redesigned to look like a rocket
18:44 asciilifeform all i have is a plush stuffed freebsd devil -- and only because old gf gave me.
18:44 asciilifeform (complete with plush trident, no less.)
18:44 ben_vulpes in other epic fucking lulz, us customs and border handed down a 10MM penalty for violating the Jones Act
18:44 asciilifeform wassat
18:45 ben_vulpes cannot use foreign flagged vessels to transport goods between points in the us
18:45 ben_vulpes points in question?
18:45 ben_vulpes gulf of mexico and alaska.
18:45 mircea_popescu kek
18:45 ben_vulpes tahp kek.
18:46 ben_vulpes coulda taken the rig in question by law, but kindly agreed to a 10MM fine.
18:46 asciilifeform 'penalties. illegal transport: 1 $. not being chinese while doing it : 9,999,999 $ .'
18:46 phf asciilifeform: i can't find any announcement. only mention is on the front page, everywhere else it's same as it's always been
18:47 asciilifeform 'Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!' -- openbsd www. lulzy.
18:48 asciilifeform https://www.openbsdstore.com seems to offer cd. strictly 5.9.
18:48 phf right, 6.0 also had a cd, i think 5.9 is leftover stock
18:53 asciilifeform i still wonder how come nobody's pressed a disk of blockchain.
18:53 asciilifeform (yes, you will need a stack of disks, what, 15 dvd ? that ain't so much. and it compresses pretty well.)
18:54 asciilifeform things that have no business ever changing, ought to exist on aluminum disk and mask rom.
↖
18:54 shinohai I was actually thinking about it after my last catastrophe
18:54 asciilifeform (and -- paper, when practical.)
18:54 asciilifeform a pressed disk has quite high nre cost but obscenely low unit cost.
18:55 asciilifeform drop'em from airplane.
18:56 danielpbarron oh you mean they don't sell the old ones? that's always been the case. they make a run and sell till they sell out
18:56 asciilifeform danielpbarron: seems like all they're selling right now is old ones
18:56 asciilifeform (next-to-last version)
18:56 * shinohai imagines eatblock pausing .... "Please insert disk 30 ...."
18:56 mircea_popescu good old days!
18:57 asciilifeform shinohai: well no. but you oughta have a binder with megatonne of old blox.
18:57 danielpbarron i have 5.5 5.6 5.7 and 5.8
18:58 asciilifeform a pressed-blockchain aluminum disk set would help to cool the enthusiasm of idiots pushing for 'pruning', 'tx replacement', whichever lunacies crafted for 'let's make'em forget history'
18:59 mircea_popescu this is not so.
18:59 asciilifeform solely as 'fleet in being' effect
18:59 shinohai They would simply recycle the disks
18:59 shinohai xD
18:59 mircea_popescu eh, i'm sure they don't imagine the actual blockchain may get lost.
18:59 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu is probably right, the beast has no central nervous system
19:00 mircea_popescu they just imagine they may get away with their pretense, is all.
19:00 asciilifeform shinohai: noshit they'd burn however many they can find.
19:00 asciilifeform but as a massively-distributed long-term backup, aluminum is ~unbeaten -- it's probably the only reason asciilifeform was able to find a copy of genera
↖
19:01 asciilifeform (the alpha genera , 7+ yrs ago)
19:01 asciilifeform whereas the various things that lived on tapes -- are near extinction, in many cases.
19:02 asciilifeform ( magnetic writing can last for surprisingly long time, if kept in comfortable conditions -- but not forever. )
19:02 mircea_popescu there is that.
19:02 * mircea_popescu still recalls fondly when bg press plant came online, late 90s. ALL the pretense of westards re "copyright" died that day.
19:02 mircea_popescu came back later, of course. but for a few years -- everything was available at a quarter a pop.
19:02 asciilifeform bg?
19:02 mircea_popescu was located in teh bulgaria.
19:02 asciilifeform aah
19:03 mircea_popescu possibly the peak of bulgarian tech at the time. those dudes were enamoured with agriculture.
19:03 asciilifeform afaik nothing (not even web server!) beats pressed aluminum for moving-bytes-cheaply.
19:04 asciilifeform to this day.
19:04 mircea_popescu thing ran 100k iron maidens one night. it was awesome.
19:07 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-fish-and-the-incredible-ingenuity-of-nature/ << Trilema - The fish, and the incredible ingenuity of nature.
19:12 shinohai Tuna looks delicious
19:24 ben_vulpes nerve gas attack in syria
19:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: and with same obummer gas as 1st.
19:25 ben_vulpes "obummer gas"?
19:25 asciilifeform 'oh but mr.t will CHANGE THINGS!1111' lol
19:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you already forgot the last one ?
19:25 ben_vulpes i might not have cared enough to register it
19:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583897 << that one
19:26 a111 Logged on 2016-12-16 04:57 trinque: pretty hard for me to condemn assad while my ass still sits in the country that sold al qaida chemical weapons to be used, then blamed on assad.
19:26 asciilifeform iirc there was even a 'smoking gun' in the clitler emails, but by then 'nobody cares'
19:27 asciilifeform (usg shipped old gas shells to 'moderate rebels' , for phreee, to 'atrocitize' asad)
19:35 asciilifeform in other noose, trump fires bannon...
19:36 asciilifeform the, if you will, 'cuckening'.
19:36 asciilifeform lessee mircea_popescu explain ~this~!
19:37 asciilifeform 'Washington (CNN)Steve Bannon, President Donald Trump's chief strategist, has been removed from his permanent seat at the National Security Council, multiple sources tell CNN, moving the council into a more traditional structure.'
19:37 asciilifeform 'President Donald Trump reorganized his National Security Council on Wednesday, removing chief strategist Stephen Bannon from a key committee and restoring the roles of top intelligence and defense officials...'
19:37 asciilifeform ( https://archive.is/zy9qN )
19:38 asciilifeform not only that, but he put the cia stooges BACK IN.
19:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform o.O
19:39 asciilifeform i have nfi! but dun appear to be disinfo.
19:39 asciilifeform looks -- actual.
19:39 mircea_popescu nuts.
19:40 mircea_popescu ah, put mcmasters in charge of nsc
19:40 mircea_popescu and re-promoted dan coats ? ahahaha.
19:41 mircea_popescu trouble at the palace!
19:42 mircea_popescu anyway, no explaining, ridiculous move.
19:43 phf maybe he's finally been explained
19:43 asciilifeform almost certainly
19:43 mircea_popescu maga significantly less likely.
19:44 asciilifeform 'moderate rebels', ukrs, pantsuit wearers, grantolade eaters, worldwide -- rejoice
19:44 mircea_popescu provided one deems the difference between extremely unlikely and impossible in any sense relevant.
19:47 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-16#1614307 .
19:47 a111 Logged on 2017-02-16 00:43 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is no time bound on 'clitler wins'
19:47 asciilifeform looks like -- finally won.
19:47 asciilifeform imho.
19:50 asciilifeform meanwhile, gas attack Officially Proclaimed (incl. by mr.t) to be asad's.
19:51 asciilifeform (https://archive.is/dQeiu and elsewhere. )
19:53 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit. << lel
20:04 mircea_popescu heh.
20:06 mircea_popescu trinque re http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-04-06.log.html#t00:05:55 any eta on the thing ?
20:06 mircea_popescu i ~utterly hate~ having to tell noobs that.
20:14 mircea_popescu in other lulz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X-cP7lPNPI
20:14 asciilifeform wassat
20:14 mircea_popescu (ro poliwhore (romanians send the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-04#1637413 to politics, as opposed to runt of sons litter) reading english in rwandan at un meeting)
20:14 a111 Logged on 2017-04-04 22:32 mircea_popescu: think in terms of that cartoon re final cs class at stanford : "and you are the idiots who didn't get hired in 2nd or 3rd year". same deal, whoring is a fine plan for cut-above-rest 16yo. by the time she's 30 she's either married or too rich to care.
20:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform here's a thought : some ssh rsa keys appear on VERY MANY different C (and B, and A) ip blocks. like say randomly http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BB80CEE8E532296E5361984A0209C5DE0169809EA68E6D2F8DE43F7A3DC4443A and friends.
20:21 mircea_popescu this'd be a fine indication of infection/nsaization/extremely sloppy opsec corp/whatever.
20:21 mircea_popescu may be worth digging into
20:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they're all, so far, examples of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1733
20:22 asciilifeform ( identifiable embedded crapola )
20:22 asciilifeform tropos, huawei, hiveap, a few others.
20:22 mircea_popescu using the same ssh key ?!
20:23 asciilifeform there's at least 1 that actually copied the key aha
20:23 mircea_popescu this is prolly worth of a qntra or something. who the fuck copies ssh keys across the field.
20:23 asciilifeform also lol!! >> http://141.239.148.243/home
20:23 asciilifeform check this out.
20:23 mircea_popescu ffs.,
20:23 asciilifeform btw,
20:23 asciilifeform admin / admin
↖
20:23 asciilifeform logs in.
20:24 mircea_popescu ah looks like tiny powerplant, maybe solar on someone's house ?
20:24 asciilifeform 'These settings should only be adjusted by a licensed solar professional'
20:24 asciilifeform lol
20:24 asciilifeform poor idiots
20:25 mircea_popescu "Use Enlighten or contact Enphase Energy customer support for a profile change token Serial number: 110939095462 Authorization number: 95477310"
20:25 mircea_popescu genius.
20:25 phf asciilifeform: do you have a set of high dpi (150/200) bitmap fonts for x11 that you use by any chance?
↖
20:25 mircea_popescu so if i change the settings now re eg voltage ima start a battery fire.
20:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you can -- it looks -like -- switch'em all off ,at least.
20:26 mircea_popescu anyway. the new password is now phuctor.
↖
20:26 asciilifeform if you felt like.
20:26 asciilifeform lol!
20:26 mircea_popescu let 'em learn by typing.
20:27 asciilifeform !$ ssh 141.239.148.243
20:27 scriba ssh banner of 141.239.148.243 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.1p1 Debian-5
20:27 asciilifeform aaaaha.
20:27 CompanionCube I would say 'what if the owner finds out'...but since they left it at admin/admin...
20:27 mircea_popescu CompanionCube the owner should find out.
20:27 shinohai (- ___ -)
20:28 CompanionCube mircea_popescu: so you're planning to turn the batteries of or something then
20:28 asciilifeform tomorrow's noose: 'nadia henninger and hanno boeck rescue ten thousand insecure solar...'
20:28 mircea_popescu nope.
20:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, it was published in the princeton review!!1
20:28 asciilifeform princetonischer beobachter.
20:29 * CompanionCube wonders how they would find out. It's not like they'd *notice* a changed password
20:29 mircea_popescu hey, ineptitude is not an excuse from duty. they shouyld find out.
20:29 mircea_popescu not like it's not published.
20:29 phf CompanionCube: they will most likely go and change something 10 months from now, then will spend couple of days searching for "that paper with password"
20:30 asciilifeform i once changed a neighbour's router admin pw to 'pigfucker'
20:30 phf *try and change
20:30 asciilifeform 7 yrs and he never knew.
20:30 asciilifeform never reset it..
20:30 mircea_popescu "it just works"
20:30 asciilifeform on the day i moved away -- it worked still.
20:31 asciilifeform phf: pw is usually trivially reset, with a button. which is why the humane thing to do is to wipe his firmware.
20:31 asciilifeform and when unit is replaced, wipe it again. until learns.
20:31 asciilifeform but who the hell has the patience for this.
20:31 CompanionCube also, shitty web UIs generally do not have that option.
20:32 asciilifeform http://69.91.192.223/home << even buggier
20:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if the item is anything like empire made, the reset button is up on the roof shimmied next to the chimney
20:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually there's a bunch of similar boxes near where i live
20:33 asciilifeform they are usually close to the electric meter.
20:33 mircea_popescu so basically, the idea here is "enphase energy" simply stamps the same (broken!) ssh key on all its boxes ?
20:34 asciilifeform http://128.135.118.180/home?locale=en << univ. of chicago ip range.
20:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: seems like it.
20:34 asciilifeform and default www creds.
20:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this find is yours, qntra it if you feel like
20:36 asciilifeform System has been live since Wed May 30, 2012 08:47 AM CDT Currently 0 W Today 14.6 kWh Past Week 63.0 kWh Since Installation 169 MWh
20:36 asciilifeform ^ above. notbad.
20:37 asciilifeform 'Device Conditions and Controls' shows 126 ! sub-boxes.
20:37 asciilifeform apparently you can slave them.
20:38 asciilifeform http://128.135.118.180/inventory?locale=en << view all.
20:39 asciilifeform looks like we just made henninger a tenured prof
20:39 asciilifeform and boeck, a герой советского союза or sumthing.
20:40 asciilifeform incidentally this find can also be used to demonstrate the massive -ev of solar scamola.
20:40 asciilifeform ( compare 169MWh over 5 yrs, cost from ordinary grid, to whatever 126 of these things cost... )
20:41 asciilifeform this is data you couldn't beat out the vendor with any sized stick.
20:41 * shinohai reset all their DNS servers to google's
20:41 asciilifeform *out of the
20:41 asciilifeform shinohai: waste of time
20:42 shinohai meant "resets"
20:43 asciilifeform not all have default creds. ( http://165.124.180.22 , does not )
20:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform eh, hardly much of a find.
20:44 mircea_popescu i just linked a link from phuctor stats page.
20:44 asciilifeform it's a find. betcha the earlier link is whole uni. of chicago solar scamatron.
20:44 asciilifeform and betcha it cost'em millions in payola.
20:44 mircea_popescu prolly.
20:45 asciilifeform some of it maybe even went to obummer himself.
20:45 asciilifeform (whoknows)
20:45 mircea_popescu well, "cost them". obama gave them 48 mn or some shit, of which they kept 3, the obama-contractor kept 11, the obama-producer kept 16, and the end result was 100ish MW (wthose thigs aren't accurate) over 5 years ie about 5 grand worth of "Clean" power.
20:45 mircea_popescu except it produced so much solid waste it'll take a few GW to clean up to some storable state.
20:46 asciilifeform well yes.
20:46 asciilifeform ( and we had a thread re cost of refining si, etc )
20:46 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2016/heres-where-you-forget-about-wind-power-as-an-alternative-source-of-power/ in picrelated.
20:47 asciilifeform ^ that's for when we find the windmill ssh key...
20:56 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/c09Lh/?raw=true << convenient list.
20:57 asciilifeform ^ all Framedragger-scan ips having this modulus.
21:00 asciilifeform http://165.124.180.22/home << also uni of c.
21:00 asciilifeform buncha these.
21:01 asciilifeform ^ 92 (!) subunits.
21:02 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu dun feel like qntra -- BingoBoingo , then ?
21:04 asciilifeform solar3.uchicago.edu << lol!!
21:05 * mircea_popescu just chopped up a coupla vanilla beans to sit in rum for eventual rompope
21:06 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo shinohai whover's awake.
21:06 asciilifeform the lifetime wattage statistic is what really melts asciilifeform's brain
21:07 asciilifeform we now have solid proof that the thing is -- beyond any possible doubt -- minus-ev
21:07 mircea_popescu for srs. this is actual data, as opposed to the bs that someone publishes.
21:08 asciilifeform oh mircea_popescu will like this:
21:08 asciilifeform https://archive.is/6xYvj
21:08 asciilifeform worx great
21:08 asciilifeform anybody wanna submit whole list ?
21:08 asciilifeform who is a top perlist
21:08 asciilifeform mod6 ?
21:08 asciilifeform ( dun need login !! to work )
21:08 asciilifeform they ALL expose wattage, plain.
21:08 asciilifeform lists : when installed, how many kW/h now, how many -- lifetime.
21:09 asciilifeform and how many panels.
21:09 asciilifeform (4th line in table.)
21:09 asciilifeform from this , and with a bit of legwork, could find out how much chump -- and u.s. treasury -- paid for this nonsense.
21:10 asciilifeform simply submit http://IP_ADDRESS/home?locale=en for ea.
21:10 mircea_popescu "chump". it's all paid by unfunded future payments which ain't fucking happening.
21:10 asciilifeform the chumper pays upfront, iirc 1/4 of cost.
21:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform working on list.
21:10 asciilifeform aite.
21:11 asciilifeform oh and betcha they all have debianized ssh ~login~ keys also.
21:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform only 28 items on your pastebin, was supposed to bne more ?
21:12 asciilifeform 28 for this mod.
21:12 asciilifeform is all.
21:12 asciilifeform but these oughta be trivial to scan for, they load plain http wherever exposed on the next.
21:12 asciilifeform *net
21:12 asciilifeform if all you want is wattage stats.
21:13 asciilifeform https://www.google.com/search?q="Number+of+Microinverters+Online"&source=lnt&tbs=li:1&sa=X << moar.
↖
21:14 asciilifeform a decent botnet could probably find all of them.
21:14 asciilifeform that currently exist.
21:15 asciilifeform or at least such that were plugged into external ip (why?! -- i have nfi)
21:15 hanbot http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1638497 << hahahaha. i can imagine w/e princeton folks flipping out between this (if reading logs, and/or chicago cronies panic at them) and the earlier email
21:15 a111 Logged on 2017-04-06 00:26 mircea_popescu: anyway. the new password is now phuctor.
21:16 asciilifeform http://www.pjm.com/about-pjm/learning-center/price-ticker.aspx << prices of megawatt-hour in different regions of usa.
21:16 asciilifeform baltimore : 26 $.
21:17 mircea_popescu sounds about right
21:17 CompanionCube wait, you changed the password on multiple ones?
21:17 asciilifeform http://165.124.180.22/inventory?locale=en shows when installed panels.
21:17 mircea_popescu nope.
21:17 asciilifeform apr 26, 2011
21:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform interestingly some don't respond.
21:17 asciilifeform 79.8 MWh produced since !!!
21:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: some probably dead. or -- most likely -- dynamic ip
21:18 mircea_popescu yeah.
21:18 asciilifeform a fresh scan will find'em.
21:18 mircea_popescu i dunno we care enough to actually bother. will see what this list tallies up to.
21:18 asciilifeform 80 MW/h is fiddybux!!
21:18 asciilifeform can you picture what 90 panels cost?
21:18 asciilifeform in 2011.
21:20 mircea_popescu certainly much more valid survey than what the pantsuit tribe customarily passes for "research"
21:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can't imagine anyone paid for this.
21:20 asciilifeform the inverters ain't cheap, either.
21:20 mircea_popescu tax breaks.
21:20 asciilifeform 'anyone'
21:20 asciilifeform i can't speak re serious inner-party (above box is 1 of the 3 uni of chicago found so far) but for proles, house owner is expected to front 1/4 - 1/2 of the cost.
21:20 asciilifeform the rest, yes, taxbreak.
21:21 mircea_popescu hanbot lulz.
21:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu -- maybe worth a trilema piece ?
21:22 mircea_popescu yeah ima write it.
21:22 mircea_popescu pretty lulzy.
21:23 asciilifeform if you're archiving, archive the http://IP_ADDR/inventory?locale=en also -- it has the panel install dates.
21:23 mircea_popescu i am.
21:24 asciilifeform neato.
21:24 * asciilifeform awaits the delectable butthurts
~ 17 minutes ~
21:41 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1638494 << not one, phf
21:41 a111 Logged on 2017-04-06 00:25 phf: asciilifeform: do you have a set of high dpi (150/200) bitmap fonts for x11 that you use by any chance?
21:41 asciilifeform i wish !!
21:42 asciilifeform phf: do you ?
21:44 asciilifeform meanwhile, on the ethertard planet : https://archive.is/0Ypri
21:44 phf i think i'm going to not do computers anymore. i'm done.
21:45 asciilifeform finally landed that coveted lighthouse keeper job phf ?
21:46 phf i'm going to become this guy instead http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5292/5561497850_c1f42f470a.jpg
21:46 doppler sign me up too
21:48 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6 ? << need some perl? <+mircea_popescu> asciilifeform working on list. << looks like mp is on it.
21:48 mircea_popescu i am ya
21:48 mod6 werd
21:51 asciilifeform 'I regret to announce as cofounder of Matchpool that I am leaving this project. I was involved in architecting Matchpool, writing the white paper and writing the first draft of the smart contracts. I was not involved in the implementation of the ICO. I have asked internally what is going on with the funds you sent to Matchpool, but have not received a satisfactory answer....
21:51 asciilifeform Over the last two days 37500 ETH has been withdrawn from the multisig wallet by the CEO, Yonatan Ben Shimon without any explanation or announcement due to the need for "hedging". Yonatan keeps claiming he's working with Bitcoin Suisse and it's all okay, but so far I haven't seen any evidence of this. I suggest you all demand an explanation and keep a close watch. In all likelihood your guppies are worthless- the terms and conditions
21:51 asciilifeform seem deliberately designed to prevent contributors having legal recourse in the case of misuse of your money. In either event, I believe the standards of transparency and integrity in this organization are well below what is needed for a blockchain project, which is why I can no longer a part of it.'
21:51 asciilifeform ^ pasted for tehl0gz.
21:52 * asciilifeform had never heard of this particular set of heathens prior, but it is lulzy.
21:52 asciilifeform what, for instance, were 'guppies' ?
21:53 * asciilifeform brb, pet
21:57 shinohai Guppies are food for the sharks yo!
22:04 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> if mircea_popescu dun feel like qntra -- BingoBoingo , then ? << I can/will qntra, but in the future when you are lulzing about the details of a thing and are unsure if editor is awake/digging-liming holes/trying to get older sober lady to 13th step him, maybe consider writing a qntra while you have and are playing with the details? Makes for more timely publication when editor is awake? Publication can happen faster when
22:04 BingoBoingo editor is verifying details in submission lulzed at in logs than when reconstructing them...
22:05 mircea_popescu give it a moment.
22:05 BingoBoingo cool
22:06 * shinohai was awake, but is rather unsure about Qntra submissions of late
22:08 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> anyway, no explaining, ridiculous move. << perhaps move to lure pantsuits into self hanging? Either that or clog fake news circuit.
22:13 BingoBoingo With media favorite Katie Stewart out of whiteouse and fundraising, media has to eat intrigue actually generated by Trump
22:19 BingoBoingo In other news, Trumpreich endorsed by King of Jordan.
22:27 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/04/trump-annouces-end-to-hussein-bahamas-era-policy-of-announcing-military-plans-months-in-advance/ << Qntra - Trump Annouces End To Hussein Bahamas Era Policy Of Announcing Military Plans Months In Advance
22:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform lulz of all time : you can get further victims AS THEY ARE INDEXED BY GOOGLE through for instance searching for "800-00038-r08" or such strings. you get a very lulzy welcome if selecting eg "deutshc" : everything's "translation missing"
↖
22:28 BingoBoingo In still further lulz, professionally black people criticize black people of Ferguson https://archive.is/yqwEV
22:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1638665 >>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1638599
22:42 a111 Logged on 2017-04-06 02:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lulz of all time : you can get further victims AS THEY ARE INDEXED BY GOOGLE through for instance searching for "800-00038-r08" or such strings. you get a very lulzy welcome if selecting eg "deutshc" : everything's "translation missing"
22:42 a111 Logged on 2017-04-06 01:13 asciilifeform: https://www.google.com/search?q="Number+of+Microinverters+Online"&source=lnt&tbs=li:1&sa=X << moar.
22:45 mircea_popescu ridoinculous.
22:45 mircea_popescu well my stab at it is published.
22:45 mircea_popescu ample room for more people to dig more lulz if so inclined.
22:51 asciilifeform no mention of how most of'em belong to uni of chicago
22:52 asciilifeform put footnote ?
22:52 asciilifeform imho it is a deep lol
22:52 BingoBoingo Or comment...
22:52 mircea_popescu comment worx
22:53 shinohai BingoBoingo: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/k35HX/?raw=true (Actually I do have a lulzy Qntra for this evening)
22:53 BingoBoingo Sometimes when you lol at a deeptail, it is easiest to write up the lollercoaster yourself.
22:54 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: writing is hardwork!
22:56 * mircea_popescu has revised some numbers, it turns out microinverters are generally about 200W rather than the more kw style stuff he remembered from youth
22:56 BingoBoingo Loading bricks is hard work. Writing is disciplined work.
22:56 asciilifeform also http://trilema.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks/#comment-121750
22:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: these are per-panel
22:57 asciilifeform so 200W is correct
22:57 asciilifeform (generally biggest you can buy is 200)
22:57 mircea_popescu apparently 180 to 220W is 90% of the market.
22:58 mircea_popescu anyway, so 200W unit produced 731 Wh/day on 5year average
22:59 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/04/prudes-attack-pence-security-detail/ << Qntra - Prudes Attack Pence Security Detail
22:59 BingoBoingo fxd
23:01 trinque "though no word was available as to whether the agent and his female companion explored a full range of disciplinary actions on their own before the tryst was interrupted." << top kek
23:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 731 Wh is approx enough to run.. a pogo.
23:01 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks/ << Trilema - The incidental humiliation of Obama's "clean energy" policies ; Marc Andreessen's Internet of Farts and other such comedic gold bricks.
23:01 asciilifeform for 24h.
23:02 shinohai !~tyvm
23:02 jhvh1 shinohai: Error: "tyvm" is not a valid command.
23:02 shinohai D:
23:02 BingoBoingo ty shinohai
23:02 shinohai !~ty
23:02 jhvh1 You are very welcome Daddy
23:02 shinohai and u BingoBoingo
23:02 * BingoBoingo did add not on Pence's own prudishness
23:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: phun phakt, solar cells quickly disappear under grime, dead leaves, bird shit, unless regularly cleaned (~nobody cleans.)
23:04 asciilifeform typical american residential roof is not 'user friendly', not flat.
23:05 mircea_popescu aha
23:05 mircea_popescu also added some clarification footnotes etc.
23:07 asciilifeform thing is apparently ~exactly~ like led light bulb.
23:07 * asciilifeform threw out 7th one this year, not long ago.
23:09 mircea_popescu phf asciilifeform to make you both feel better : sat i'm going to a "russian rock concert" at this massage parlour slash blinyi restaurant run by a buncha russian chicks.
23:09 asciilifeform lol!
23:10 * shinohai hopes mircea_popescu 's Russian chicks aren't anti-semitic
23:10 mircea_popescu why ? i'm no joo.
23:11 shinohai They might read trilema, see mircea_popescu in earlier days with joofro and start pogrom
23:13 asciilifeform also http://trilema.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks/#comment-121751
23:14 mircea_popescu lel
23:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform answer't.
23:16 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/solar-lulz.txt << this is the dump
23:16 asciilifeform aah neato
23:17 mircea_popescu only 660 or so mIs, say about half mil total worth or so
23:17 mircea_popescu mebbe a whole mil.
23:21 asciilifeform betcha so much as the installation of a new ~table leg~ at, e.g., univ. of chicago, costs moar than that.
23:22 asciilifeform (and they have, what, 400 of the panels)
~ 36 minutes ~
23:59 asciilifeform in other lulz, gzipped (individually) blox 0 ... 459205 take up:
23:59 asciilifeform 82G .
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