Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-02-24 | 2017-02-26 → ↓
00:00 BingoBoingo cloudflare lulz stem from US 'hockeystick' metaphor
~ 1 hours 16 minutes ~
01:17 thestringpuller http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617872 << In world of warcraft alliance and horde factions couldn't talk to each other. So as an alliance player if someone in the horde typed "lol" it would come out "kek". nostalgia :|
01:17 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 02:14 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617860 << after n years i still am in the dark, re what exactly is a kek, and where to get one
01:18 BingoBoingo thestringpuller: kek predates that
~ 23 minutes ~
01:42 trinque kik is lol transposed left one key
01:42 trinque I'd wager the e was random drift
01:43 trinque of course these things needn't have one particular origin
~ 20 minutes ~
02:04 trinque oh, I guess asians do say kek, too.
02:04 trinque that was important internet research.
02:04 * trinque to bed
~ 7 hours 58 minutes ~
10:03 mod6 mornin'
10:04 asciilifeform goodmorning mod6
10:05 shinohai heya mod6
10:07 mod6 :]
10:09 mod6 asciilifeform: cool work on adding the timings for blocks (timer & revealer)
10:10 mod6 how goes shinohai?
10:12 shinohai Not bad here, you? Hopefully I can get time this afternoon to add asciilifeform 's newest goodies and test
10:14 mod6 yeah, good call. should be easy enough to drop em in and test 'em.
10:24 mod6 lol, so get this. i was thinking, "man i really should have gotten a Ada ref book..."
10:24 mod6 I already bought that Ada 95 lecture notes book and had it on my shelf. found it there lastnight. heh.
10:26 asciilifeform mod6: http://cs.fit.edu/~ryan/ada/programs << quite possibly the best www resource re subj.
10:27 mod6 ah yah, that's a good list of things. i've got it bookmarked. good to have it in the l0gz again tho.
10:27 asciilifeform ( the canonical standards are also on www, http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/ada12.html , download the html to disk and use like lisp folks use clhs)
10:28 asciilifeform http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html << on this page, there are zip of plain ascii (!!) vers of the ref and rationale, also.
10:28 mod6 what i want to do is write a program that does somethings to not only get a feel for the lang, but also how to use packages.
10:29 asciilifeform mod6: the canonical 'schoolbook for the lazy' is the john barnes backbreaker.
10:29 asciilifeform the package system is quite spiffy and rather programmable, you will win from doing some reading.
10:30 asciilifeform ( it is more similar to common lisp's than to idiot langs where 'hurr durr , packages just mean #include eh?' )
10:30 mod6 nice, thanks for the links. i'll keep readin'
~ 51 minutes ~
11:21 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/lets-put-one-and-two-together/ << Trilema - Let's put one and two together.
~ 43 minutes ~
12:04 mircea_popescu trinque dja think deedbot should have an ad interim patch before tmsr pgp is released to take care of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617236 ?
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12:04 a111 Logged on 2017-02-23 19:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o hey, consider this situation : 1. i know your fp, so i make fake key for that fp. 2. i know trinque 's fp, so i make fake key for that fp too. 3. i know you keep a signed copy of trinque's key on your keyring ; so : 4. i proceed to sign trinque's fake key with your fake key and 5. pretend to be a noob and give you my gpg pubkey.
12:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho the smart thing to do with bad olde gpg is to use it as demonstrated in my original vtron -- sans keyring.
12:06 mircea_popescu smart thing would be to replace it with a proper rsatron
12:06 asciilifeform noshit.jpg
12:06 mircea_popescu no fixes till then i don't think.
12:07 asciilifeform must point out : keyring diddles don't affect folx who don't use keyrings.
12:07 asciilifeform (other gpg retardations -- naturally -- will.)
12:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, 1st link in your piece is borked
12:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/17577FB048785D5F26AF21D592811C703AB7BEF56D6DB29E34C2A8EF081BF233 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1671...2219 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.149.58.73 (ssh-rsa key from 217.149.58.73 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (tango-73.srv.hosting.fi. FI)
12:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/17577FB048785D5F26AF21D592811C703AB7BEF56D6DB29E34C2A8EF081BF233 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1676...3887 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.149.58.73 (ssh-rsa key from 217.149.58.73 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (tango-73.srv.hosting.fi. FI)
12:09 mircea_popescu fixt ty
12:11 asciilifeform meanwhile:
12:11 asciilifeform ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
12:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al!!
12:11 asciilifeform http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000255.html
12:11 asciilifeform [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Blackhole Odometer.
12:16 asciilifeform after running this for a spell, simply:
12:16 asciilifeform grep -B 1 ProcessBlock .bitcoin/debug.log
12:16 asciilifeform and wotpaste the output .
12:17 mircea_popescu odometer lol. nice.
12:20 ben_vulpes alf the busy beaver dog
12:23 mircea_popescu wait, what's the beaver about ?
12:23 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: pretty idle lately , actually, trb is a procrastinatory escape from the hardstuff
12:25 ben_vulpes publishy, then
12:30 shinohai Interesting trilema article mircea_popescu ... twitter actually locked my account twice this week over the "auto" stuff, which they refer to as suspicious account activity.
12:30 mircea_popescu heh
12:31 mircea_popescu lots of people, not just you. and they're all suspicious subversives.
12:31 mircea_popescu whatever, they'll be left with boeck and supran tweeting to one another, no great loss
12:35 shinohai Why have an api if you can't actually do useful things with it.
12:36 asciilifeform https://archive.is/KV4sG << relatedly!
12:37 mircea_popescu a there you go.
12:41 mircea_popescu lol wait for urbit.
12:41 mircea_popescu ahahahaa ookay.
12:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and 'blockchain-based principles' !!
12:42 asciilifeform hey where would the islanders ever have seen airplane made not of straw.
12:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the guy doesn't know how to say http://trilema.com/2015/a-proper-social-site-for-the-bdsm-community/
12:43 mircea_popescu don't begrudge an orc his orcish tongue ; "blockchain principles" is how they say "tmsr made"
12:44 mircea_popescu o look, stefan molyneux made the list, that chick angie what'sher name didn't.
12:44 asciilifeform heimbach did tho!111
12:45 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-15#1555637
12:45 a111 Logged on 2016-10-15 05:27 asciilifeform: heimbach was one hell of a d00d, i met him on a street, where he picketed 'occupyists' while waving kaiser banner.
12:45 * mircea_popescu lulz at the notion he quit it before it was even cool.
12:45 asciilifeform hey asciilifeform was 1 step ahead even of this! never used shitter
12:46 mircea_popescu a decade or so ago there were womenz there.
12:46 asciilifeform hey now it'll be ~100% solid 'womenz.' only, the kind with 6 legs.
12:47 mircea_popescu myeah
12:54 asciilifeform in other noose, worldwide butthurt re 'oh noez, people won't delete ILLICIT LEAKED SEEKRITZ!111 from crapflare 'bug' !! IRRESPONSIBLE!'
12:54 mircea_popescu lel
12:54 asciilifeform ( https://archive.is/Nxydu << entomologists only!! )
12:54 mircea_popescu quite literally irresponsible : i don't fucking answer TO YOU SAD LOT
~ 18 minutes ~
13:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FEYhA/?raw=true << thus far on dulap.
13:13 asciilifeform general-purpose db, it turns out, is ALWAYS The Wrong Tool For Every Job (tm) -- like duct tape, and 'visegrip'...
13:14 mircea_popescu contrary to what hate haters hate, mysql is perfect for the web
13:14 mircea_popescu (no, the web doesn't have "logins" ffs.)
13:14 asciilifeform ~mysql~ ?
13:14 mircea_popescu yeah.
13:14 asciilifeform the one that crashes randomly ?
13:15 mircea_popescu 8 years of trilema, never crashed, randomly or otherwise.
13:15 asciilifeform how many write/sec peak ?
13:15 asciilifeform reads ?
13:15 mircea_popescu writes ? i dunno, one a day ?
13:15 asciilifeform so then.
13:16 mircea_popescu reads, in the 1k/s range i guess. trilema is big.
13:16 mircea_popescu I DID SAY!
13:16 asciilifeform if you ~only read, you don't need a db
13:16 mircea_popescu but you don't ~only. you web. rarely write, often read.
13:16 mircea_popescu it has slave reads, which makes it WAY BETTER than any other, including progresql or whatever
13:17 asciilifeform point being that you can simply switch off reading for the few msec every day that you are actually writing, without causing headache
13:17 mircea_popescu yup.
13:17 asciilifeform and guarantee consistency
13:18 mircea_popescu received 1.8 gb sent 104.3 gb. today.
13:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i thought you had a cachetron in there? or does every www load actually result in db reads
13:19 asciilifeform (even phuctor has a simple cache)
13:19 mircea_popescu not every www load hits the db, but more than none do because page layout complexities
13:19 mircea_popescu (new comment stales out all article pages ; all pages are staled out once a day cause of header image ; etcetera)
13:19 asciilifeform so probably it isn't '1k/sec' then
13:19 mircea_popescu today is not ddos day
13:19 asciilifeform but a more reasonable handful/sec.
13:19 mircea_popescu you understand this, it stays up through all sorts of insanity.
13:20 asciilifeform 'stay up' is not same as 'all requests complete' neh
13:20 mircea_popescu for the web it is.
13:20 mircea_popescu that's the premise here : perfect for the job.
13:20 asciilifeform what, every ddos maggot gets an accurate copy of the item he supposedly reads?
13:21 mircea_popescu no, just, i don't give a shit what happens to any request.
13:21 asciilifeform so 'perfect' for 'the web' aka 'thing that does not actually need to work to any spec'
13:21 mircea_popescu it's a job.
13:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what were 'slave reads' ?
13:24 mircea_popescu you recall the discussion where you couldn'tr get "advanced sqltron" to read stale ?
13:24 asciilifeform i recall one where i asked how to force unlocking for reads in pgsql , and found answer was 'fuckyou'
13:25 mircea_popescu and phf was all like "this isn't in the spec" then read the spec etc
13:26 asciilifeform btw not only do i ask for this, but i would even buy a multi-ported ssd. to ACTUALLY read from two holes at same time. because in some applications, you can guarantee consistency using YOUR OWN system, and don't need to rely on some idiot's lock
13:27 mircea_popescu yeah well.
13:27 asciilifeform (you can get multiported memory, no questions asked, even now. but not, for some odd reason, packaged into any device you can use with a comp...)
13:27 mircea_popescu orc dun know what he didn't read on twitter.
13:30 asciilifeform while we're on subj of idiot db: i looked into how to sanely aggregate writes in bdb. turned up 0.
13:31 mircea_popescu i dun think it does that.
13:31 asciilifeform evidently
13:31 asciilifeform incidentally, does it melt anyone else's brain that satoshi's format for tx input did not mandate a 'and it is in block # N' field ?
13:32 mircea_popescu no. very much in line with the cowboy design altogether.
13:32 asciilifeform this would handily make the txindex db unnecessary entirely
13:32 asciilifeform as well as abolish 'orphans', etc.
13:32 mircea_popescu yes but it would inconvenience user.
13:32 asciilifeform how ? ohnoez, he has to wait for a tx to get mined before making children of it ?
13:32 mircea_popescu yeah.
13:33 asciilifeform big fat pain
13:33 mircea_popescu yes. but at the time satoshi was satoshing under that name, people were still pre-bitcoinafrica
13:33 asciilifeform (... and, having to wait half hour for block eatings is not pain ?)
13:33 mircea_popescu no because government does thart for them hurr.
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13:34 mircea_popescu it's hard, dude. washing out the socialism from the crevices of the boy who lived in socialism is fucking hard.
13:34 asciilifeform but that was ~whole motherfucking point, even of early bitcoin
13:34 asciilifeform as nonsocialism themepark, if you will
13:34 mircea_popescu what people think the whole point is scarcely has any bearing.
13:34 mircea_popescu that's what he was trying to do, yes.
13:34 mircea_popescu similarily, young bride isn't AIMING to become a bitch. she's just getting married.
13:35 mircea_popescu and it'll be really cool and wonderful.
13:35 asciilifeform bitcoin reminds me of... early attempts to pump hard vacuum.
13:36 asciilifeform (e.g., edison, was very frustrated, because it is physically impossible to get ~hard~ vacuum using , e.g., torricelli's methods, but he did not know this )
13:37 asciilifeform ('hard', for n00bz, i will reminds, is when mean-free-path of particle is longer than the container is wide along any axis)
13:37 asciilifeform so it likewise was with 'let's make a bottle with 0 socialism'
13:38 asciilifeform trb node is, for instance, continuously engaged in the sin of 'something to allcomers'.
13:39 mircea_popescu yeah
13:39 mircea_popescu i think it a very apt analogy actually.
13:39 asciilifeform pretty straight case of 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'
13:40 mircea_popescu only in the making of hard vacuum was the making of hard vacuum learned ; and it fundamentally changed fluid physics (which is more than one immediately realises)
13:40 asciilifeform aha.
13:40 mircea_popescu it's very similar to the marine chronometer problem, in its disproportionate impact
13:40 mircea_popescu "who the fuck cares about navy timekeeping" "hurry up and have children before you're too old to attract a sucker"
13:45 asciilifeform there were not so many tech leaps comparable to hard vacuum (which makes possible everything from triode -- ergo, tuned radio, cathode tube, geiger, electron microscopy, 1,000,001 everyday items )
13:47 asciilifeform a method of bitcoinating where you can actually get ~100% of the socialism out (as contemplated in, e.g., the gossip threads) would, i suspect, be a similar jump.
13:48 mircea_popescu aha.
13:48 mircea_popescu trb-i, yes?
13:50 asciilifeform by definition neh.
13:50 mircea_popescu yeah
13:57 asciilifeform while we're on subj, why not make tx of fixed size ?
13:58 asciilifeform then you have O(1) input-finding.
13:58 asciilifeform no incides needed at all.
13:58 asciilifeform *indices
13:59 asciilifeform tx is, e.g., 1024 byte, then 1024 tx live in a block, etc.
14:05 asciilifeform a mature (i.e. mined) tx's id will then consist of the concatenation of the block number it lives in (say, 64bit, enough until long after sun burns out), then a 10-bit offset into the block (0..1023) , then hash of payload.
14:06 asciilifeform (alternatively, could require that a tx include a 'i want to live in block N' value at birth! and if it doesn't get into N, it is invalid for all time. but this would have serious engineering tradeoff, 'canned' txen as discussed in old mircea_popescu article would be impossible.)
14:07 asciilifeform ('value at birth' naturally implies 'encompassed by the signature')
14:07 asciilifeform however 'bbet scenario' would then also be abolished.
14:09 asciilifeform no longer would idiotic concept of 'ahahaha you're trying to DOUBLESPEND!' be a thing.
14:10 asciilifeform and mempool contents would have natural lifespans, as they presently do not.
14:10 danielpbarron not impossible; would just need to pre-sign hundreds of thousands of tx, each "wanting to live" in a different block but all using the same inputs. even gives you the control over how long the "canned tx" is good for
14:11 asciilifeform danielpbarron: if this is desirable -- then can use scheme as described. otherwise can also require ~hash~ of the antecedent of the wanted-block.
14:11 asciilifeform then -- no cans.
14:13 asciilifeform to clarify -- in my mind, a 'trb-i' ~must~ be capable of checking validity of tx at wire speed (i.e. at the speed it is physically capable of receiving them) on reasonable iron.
14:13 asciilifeform this would abolish the 'epicycle' of 'how do we rate-limit crapola'
14:14 asciilifeform and transform the problem into 'how do we keep enemy from jamming the low level transport', which is solved by signed-packets (or mircea_popescu's variant, or similar.)
14:16 asciilifeform to revisit upstack -- if you have 'want-block' field, you can auto-reject (in O(1) !!) any tx that comes in having a want-block that is <= current-height.
14:16 asciilifeform (reject, that is, from mempool candidacy)
14:17 asciilifeform likewise you can reject, in O(1), any tx input which attempts to make use of a future ( > current-height ) block.
14:18 trinque beat me to "then people will broadcast 10x the txns each time"
14:18 asciilifeform trinque: nobody makes you relay tx that has future want-block.
14:18 trinque aha
14:19 asciilifeform ( but as i described, you can make it protocolically impossible, by demanding parent's hash )
14:19 trinque on the same page; please continue
14:19 asciilifeform in either hypothetical trb-i -- you no longer need a db. any db.
14:19 asciilifeform all input lookups are O(1).
↖ ↖
14:21 asciilifeform locking problems (gotta add tx to index, in current trb, as aggregate -- but the only way to do that is to stop the world! like complete idiot -- every time there is a new block, to prevent situation where there is a partially indexed block available to incoming mempool tx verifier) disappear.
14:21 asciilifeform in given trb-i scheme, a block either exists on disk -- or does not
14:21 asciilifeform either verifies (again in O(1) !) or does not
14:22 asciilifeform scheme is a quite obvious one. but i bet if there is anyone whom this shoe pinches, it'll be mircea_popescu , he will tell us where.
14:23 asciilifeform the one tricky question i can think of is, how does it behave under reorg.
14:25 asciilifeform (seems to me that the old dictum 'wait 6 blox' would still apply just the same.)
14:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform judging by the thing you linked btw, the "harmless radiator" function of urbit is out in full effect.
14:26 trinque under current circumstances there are also cases where you will have to regrind and rebroadcast your transaction
14:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: andresen h. paid for it for a reason!11
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14:27 trinque same deal, better watch the chain to know your txn actually happened
14:27 asciilifeform trinque: right
14:27 mircea_popescu canned txn wouldn't be impossible, just less maneuvrable.
14:27 asciilifeform trinque: though in classical bitcoin you don't usually need to regrind
14:27 mircea_popescu could make them in 1k block increments say
14:27 asciilifeform only rebroadcast
14:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: under the don't-need-antecedent-hash -- yes, you could
14:28 asciilifeform in the stricter variant -- not
14:29 trinque looser variant only buys you "might get into alternate next-block, otherwise regrind"
14:29 trinque not much really
14:29 asciilifeform trinque: looser variant buys you 'i can give canned tx to my friend so he can move my coin to /dev/null when usg shoots me, but nowhere else'
14:30 asciilifeform if no canned tx permitted -- this is no longer possible.
14:30 trinque aha, feature or bug
14:30 asciilifeform it is both.
14:31 asciilifeform which is why i won't even take a position on this , and leave it up to folx who actually worked this scenario in real life , e.g. mircea_popescu .
14:31 mircea_popescu anyway. the main problem, barely conveyed by the "canned tx" thing, is that if you require the user to know more than his privkey to make a txn, you make usage a higher bar than it is now.
14:31 asciilifeform correct
14:32 mircea_popescu whether this is desirable or not is very much an open question, but it is too early yet to weigh on the matter.
14:32 asciilifeform he has to know the actual best-block.
14:32 asciilifeform (which, if you recall in classical bitcoin, is not easy ! withholding exists...)
14:32 trinque imagining one under attack, it could certainly prevent him from blasting coin to another castle before defeat
14:33 trinque net blockade == no transactions smuggled out
14:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618154 << it's so funny, at least to me, the sheer wastage of resources usg oligarchs engage in. they keep buying things, which they don't understand, on the expectation that "we;ll find a use for them". they do. it's ALWAYS the same one. somehow the fact that i know in advance what it'll be doesn't inform them as to their horrible strategic position.
14:33 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 19:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: andresen h. paid for it for a reason!11
14:33 trinque or, messenger has to have privkey
14:33 trinque in which case messenger is fucking rich
14:33 mircea_popescu somewhat in the same way a retarded child who buys things but always ends up using them as if they were icecream doesn't thereby realise he's retarded.
14:33 mircea_popescu trinque there's all that.
14:34 asciilifeform trinque, mircea_popescu : to my naked eye, looks like you could get best of both world, by making 'want-block' optional
14:34 mircea_popescu it suspiciously reinstills socialism in that it creates a very strong incentive for... all castles to... work together. because "first they came for the germans" usual bugaboo of socialist propaganda to try and dissolve the outer membranes of the individual organism's cells.
14:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the unfortunate bit is that having global consensused state (blocks) at all, already does this
14:35 mircea_popescu to a lesser degree.
14:36 asciilifeform (the only alternative known to me, presently, is the matrix mechanics 'coin' we discussed on a few occasions, and that is 'martian' tech that nobody alive is necessarily qualified to operate )
14:36 mircea_popescu see, the fact that you don't have txn as you describe is what allowed me the "you will die if you fork" threat last year : i don't have to know jack about their chain to murder their chain.
14:36 mircea_popescu under a bitcoin as you describe, 2015 gavincoin'd have had better chances.
14:36 asciilifeform how's that
14:37 mircea_popescu because the same txn was acceptable to both fork and real network.
14:37 mircea_popescu spend a bitcoin, obtain a bitcoin on each chain.
14:37 asciilifeform doesn't that make setting up the temperature pump harder, rather than easier ?
14:38 asciilifeform (the gavin-killing device from mircea_popescu's 'missile crisis' piece)
14:38 mircea_popescu seems not.
14:38 mircea_popescu let's see. i have a bitcoin. the network forks. i spend the bitcoin. the spend is valid on both networks and thus included by both networks. in different blocks.
14:38 mircea_popescu i now have two bitcoins - a real and a fake one.
14:39 mircea_popescu if the network worked as you describe, i'd have had to choose on which network i wish to spend.
14:39 mircea_popescu which'd have required me to ~know something~ about the fake network.
14:39 asciilifeform now let's work same example in hypothetical 'needs want-block'. there you would simply have to sign 2 tx, with same payload other than 'want-block', neh ?
14:39 mircea_popescu something is a higher bar than nothing.
14:39 asciilifeform and would get desired effect
14:39 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617985 << yes, I will look into storing pubkeys elsewhere, nuke keyring, pass pubkey each time to encrypt call.
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14:39 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 17:04 mircea_popescu: trinque dja think deedbot should have an ad interim patch before tmsr pgp is released to take care of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617236 ?
14:39 mircea_popescu i said harder not impossible.
14:40 mircea_popescu trinque my concern was more in the vein of, i don't want deedbot to answer with an item crafted as described to a !!key command
14:40 asciilifeform on second thought, it seems to me that you could get everything you could possibly want from 'want-block', by making an optional 'max-block'
14:40 asciilifeform this would abolish bbet-like 'dr.evil sat on this tx until convenient moment, then mined it' when desired.
14:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this existed historically, on say call bills etc.
14:40 asciilifeform and still permit canned tx.
14:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha. expiring cheques, etc.
14:40 trinque mircea_popescu: right, register in this case would write a pubkey somewhere once, and always use that as the nick:key association
14:41 trinque whereas now I'm asking the keyring
14:41 mircea_popescu trinque it's more than that. must make sure the pubkey you wrote includes nothing but itself. one modulus.
14:41 mircea_popescu othewrwise you'll feed it to people, see ?
14:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: to defang gpg, must prevent it from writing to ANYWHERE on disk other than stdout
14:42 asciilifeform so no implicit modification of states.
14:42 mircea_popescu yeah well, that's a diff story.
14:42 trinque mircea_popescu: ah yes I do. I'll need that pgpdump guy, store what's extracted from the key
14:42 asciilifeform just recall vtron.
14:42 mircea_popescu trinque pretty much.
14:42 mircea_popescu sorry for the mess, which it is.
14:42 trinque is what it is
14:42 mircea_popescu myeah. thanks obama sort of thing.
14:43 mircea_popescu incredibly prescient choice on mod6 's part with the .seals design
14:43 mircea_popescu or was it alf ?
14:44 asciilifeform mod6 implemented my original format 100%
14:44 asciilifeform (he did make small mistake in his recurser, but that was separate thing)
14:44 mircea_popescu yeah. it was you know, so clunky and unhip, at the time.
14:44 asciilifeform fwiw i still use my vtron and his interchangeably.
14:45 asciilifeform and nobody will need to make much change to switch to 'p' keys/seals.
14:46 mircea_popescu aha.
14:51 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618203 << if the only gpg op in your thing is verification, you can lift code from any of the vtrons, verbatim
14:51 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 19:39 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617985 << yes, I will look into storing pubkeys elsewhere, nuke keyring, pass pubkey each time to encrypt call.
14:51 asciilifeform (if decrypt -- a bit more sweat)
14:53 trinque I have a gpg wrapper CL item I wrote
14:53 asciilifeform aah neato
14:53 trinque would release but the thing doesn't need more legs
14:58 asciilifeform trinque, mircea_popescu : the reason for my 'want-block' gedankenexperiment, is the 'high vacuum' line of thought from earlier. because any way you cut it, an unexpiring tx is a kind of cheque for unlimited number of cpu cycles from the rest of the world
14:58 asciilifeform in that nodes are required to contemplate it again, and again, potentially forever
14:58 mircea_popescu no, but until included.
14:58 asciilifeform it is a 'to-allcomers' quantum of socialistronium
14:58 asciilifeform yes but potentially never included, and always a cpu tax to all-comers.
14:59 asciilifeform 'unbounded' ~= 'infinite'.
14:59 mircea_popescu im not disputing unexpiring txn is a bojum
14:59 mircea_popescu for one thing, very poor impedance match with human thought processes.
14:59 asciilifeform and yes, the man in the besieged castle, would dearly love to broadcast an unexpiring tx, throw it in a glass bottle into the sea, and who knows, it will go to friendly lines
15:00 asciilifeform but this is an unlimited cheque, of sorts.
15:01 mircea_popescu it inadvertently forces a node-miner tandem ("you don't like the mempopol, fucking mine it already")
15:01 asciilifeform aha.
15:01 mircea_popescu wasn't so obvious back when ppl cpumined on the single windows binary
15:02 asciilifeform there may exist some way to solve 'castle problem' that doesn't require a tx to stand alone 'for all time'.
15:02 mircea_popescu anyway, no need for "desried block" and "max block" both. just the latter suffices.
15:02 asciilifeform yes but ~require~ the latter ?
15:02 mircea_popescu sure.
15:03 asciilifeform then solves 'to allcomers', because the cpu cycle cost of eating a tx can be determined in O(1).
15:03 mircea_popescu it can be priced see. if i wish to pay a ten bitcoin fee, i thereby have the right to make my tx last into the eons
15:03 asciilifeform ^ aha
15:03 asciilifeform is what i meant
15:03 mircea_popescu the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
↖
15:04 mircea_popescu that's why i aim to buy the arab girls rather than convert to islam. they can keep their fucking ethnosocialism.
15:04 mircea_popescu and that's also why the hope of the beta bois whining around "nrx" because "girlz be mean yo" is so well set to be disabused. more market, not less, is the future.
15:05 asciilifeform to outline what we have so far : we've a 'must have all blocks' mining algo, from mircea_popescu ; we have a O(1)-verify-of-any-and-all-tx-and-blocks algo from asciilifeform (today) ; and we also now have a 'limited cpu cost for tx' algo.
15:05 mircea_popescu yes, not terrible.
15:06 asciilifeform what we afaik don't have is 'incentive for node-keeping' algo (though mircea_popescu's partially solves this, by requiring miners to have healthy nodes)
15:06 mircea_popescu what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers.
15:06 asciilifeform what's that
15:07 mircea_popescu can you presently count the bitcoin networks that exist ?
↖
15:07 mircea_popescu i know you'll say "there's one". but can you count ?
15:07 asciilifeform i can't even count how many arms and legs exist
15:07 asciilifeform (can fermi estimate,but that is not same!)
15:07 mircea_popescu the g has a decent debottler built in ; the trb-i does not, and needs a few.
15:07 asciilifeform plox to elaborate
15:08 mircea_popescu "how do i know i talk to nodes that are representative ? cheaply and easily ?" for instance.
15:08 asciilifeform why is it necessary for anyone to know the global count of operating nodes
15:08 mircea_popescu i did not say nodes. i said networks.
15:08 asciilifeform it seems like a terrible liability, for such a thing to be possible
15:08 mircea_popescu for all you know there's 45 different bitcoins going on right now, separated by a so-far universally permeable membrane.
15:08 asciilifeform (see mircea_popescu's earlier point re imposing cooperation on castles)
15:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is inevitable fact of life, boxes live and die, wires are cut, new ones -- laid, etc
15:09 mircea_popescu consider the case of the web, also a major application in need of a debottler. how do you know whether you connect ot the internet or to the tomcooknet ?
15:09 mircea_popescu most ustards do the later and have no idea.
15:09 asciilifeform there are as many 'bitcoin nets', theoretically, as there are nodes
15:09 mircea_popescu my mouse knew it was in a glass jar.
15:10 asciilifeform i am at a loss as to how this problem is solvable in general case. aside from mircea_popescu's answer to my 'panopticon' thread, 'don't get caught in a jar!'
15:10 mircea_popescu what difference does that make ?
15:10 mircea_popescu it's still needed.
15:10 asciilifeform 'if you keep banging head on glass, you are probably in a jar'
15:10 asciilifeform perpetuum mobile is similarly 'needed'.
15:10 mircea_popescu yes, but it'd be good if it could be protocolized.
15:11 asciilifeform and isn't that what the proof of work thing was originally about..?
15:11 asciilifeform 'if you notice that the world hashrate seems to now equal what you could make out of your kitchen appliances, you are probably on cooknet'
15:12 mircea_popescu it's a step in that direction yes.
15:13 asciilifeform afaik it is one of the only two known steps in that direction (the other being wotronics. and we discussed what a coin that relies ~solely~ on wotronics, and not at all on proof-of-work, might look like.)
15:13 mircea_popescu only works for blocks, you see.
15:13 mircea_popescu whereas the bar to participate is txn
15:13 mircea_popescu again, at the time ppl cpumined on their node-miner-wallet nobody noticed the difference.
15:14 asciilifeform aha, even with mandatorily expiring tx, it is still possible to flood at low cost
15:14 asciilifeform though O(1) verification could make this a nonproblem
15:14 mircea_popescu that's one end of it.
15:14 mircea_popescu it's also possible to go "oh, go ahead and spend your bitcoinz lel"
15:14 asciilifeform (if tx can be verified at line rate, nobody can do any more damage using tx flooding than they already can do by flooding your net pipe)
15:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: as in, 'fuck you, i won't relay this, your addr ends with my auschwitz tatoo number' ?)
15:15 mircea_popescu consider the lulz yesterday with the peter todd imbecile, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617211
15:15 a111 Logged on 2017-02-23 18:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the important point there is : the whole fake bitcoin address (3something) is supposed to be "useful" in practice. this utility is supposed to be proven by idiotic "challenges" like this one put up by peter todd. EXCEPT the output does not actually SIGN the transaction claiming the bounty.
15:15 mircea_popescu if your idea of "i want to spend my dime" reduces to "well, have a mining farm" suddenly the whole thing's ~useless.
15:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform exactly.
15:15 asciilifeform wasn't that ^ thing simply an instance of 'i'ma put some coin on the floor for a miner to take' ?
15:15 asciilifeform ~= voluntary fee.
15:15 mircea_popescu mno.
15:16 asciilifeform that it was able to masquerade as 'contest prize', is not really a bug in bitcoin
15:16 mircea_popescu it was an instance of "here's something i made that doesn't work, mommy loves me" complex.
15:16 mircea_popescu yes, but the idea is to not expand the hipster doofus design principles to trb-i
15:16 asciilifeform idiots will always be able to smear shit on surfaces. the important thing is that the surface not be shit-permeable.
15:16 asciilifeform pigeons shit on mercedes and trabant alike.
15:17 mircea_popescu never mind that. the problem is that if your tx being included depends on you having a miner, you don't actually have a system. just like the 3bullshit isn't a system.
15:17 asciilifeform that wasn't a legit bitcoin tx tho
15:17 mircea_popescu you keep fixating on a completely nonsensical interpretation of the comparison.
15:18 asciilifeform the fact of todd's trick being a thing, does not impose, afaik, any costs on legit users of bitcoin
15:18 mircea_popescu look here.
15:19 mircea_popescu idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work.
↖
15:19 mircea_popescu idiot example #2 : a trb which allows txn to be blocked by others than their issuers is ALSO a "way to do things" which doesn't in fact work, and therefore, exactly equivalent to the peter todd & prb idiots item
15:20 asciilifeform ( if huckster can sell piss-cum-ink to chumps as 'elixir of immortality' -- is this a bug in piss? or in ink ? that he can do this )
15:20 mircea_popescu miners may not be able to choose txn on any other criteria than the fee ; nodes idem.
15:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how do you propose to force miners to include a particular tx ?
15:20 mircea_popescu all txn are encrypted to destination. nobody knows what was mined until it is spent.
15:21 asciilifeform i recall a proposal where ^
15:21 asciilifeform they can still discriminate on input, neh
15:21 mircea_popescu (practically - you can only know txn y spent from address z only once the chain ends up with an address you own so you can decrypt it)
15:21 mircea_popescu the problem with this is that it makes balance checks impossible.
15:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how ?
15:22 asciilifeform to validate a tx, you gotta know that it is spending a valid input
15:22 mircea_popescu myeah.
15:22 mircea_popescu this is what i'm saying, anyway. " what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers."
15:23 asciilifeform ( to square this circle, appears to be an irresistible lure to 'tor' types, they keep coming up with 'zkp' schemes )
15:23 asciilifeform ring signatures, etc.
15:23 asciilifeform none of it remotely works.
15:23 mircea_popescu what can i tell you.
15:23 mircea_popescu absent a good or at least workable breakthrough in this vein, there's no strong technological incentive to move to trb-i
15:24 mircea_popescu there may be political, but then again...
15:24 asciilifeform o(1) verification and must-have-all-blocks not enough ?
15:24 mircea_popescu political.
15:24 asciilifeform 'it won't grind to a halt in few years' is not 'political incentive' ?
15:24 mircea_popescu it is.
15:26 asciilifeform what other 'technological leaps' might qualify (other than successful blinded-payload )
15:26 asciilifeform ?
15:27 mircea_popescu well, sha-1 went, any one of the two mechanisms involved in pubkey protection weakinging any would make for an emergency incentive.
15:27 asciilifeform elementarily
15:28 mircea_popescu let's see, what more...
15:28 asciilifeform (i was presupposing 'incentive to move while classical bitcoin is not on fire')
15:28 mircea_popescu (in case it wasn't obvious, diff between political and technological is based on whether people have an incentive to emulate the fix anyway)
15:29 asciilifeform 'emulate the fix' means what, exactly ?
15:30 asciilifeform to pick it up and bolt to old piece of junk , rather than scrapping it entirely ?
15:30 mircea_popescu take the issue of "must have all blocks". there's a strong political incentive to supplant the technological failure.
15:30 mircea_popescu ie, the interests of the participants are alligned in the way of the fix not in the way of the failure.
15:31 asciilifeform dunno, the asian 'we JUST WANT TO' folx, will whine, stand in the way however they can
15:31 mircea_popescu myeah
15:31 asciilifeform they want to mine, see, on dial-up
15:32 asciilifeform (why -- i have nfi)
15:33 asciilifeform now, a magical squaring of the 'anonymous tx' circle, where you lose ~nothing~, can prove a balance, verify a tx, and send entirely blinded, that satisfies everyone -- would technologically supplant classical algo. but there is no sign that such a thing is possible.
15:34 asciilifeform (i even suspect that it is possible to rigorously prove that these requirements are mathematically contradictory)
15:34 mircea_popescu maybe so yeah.
15:41 asciilifeform blinded output is trivial (many ways to unblind 1 or more blocks later); it is ~inputs~ that are the squared-circle.
15:41 mircea_popescu yes.
15:41 mircea_popescu also happens to be what's of interest, what with all "color of bits" eternal imperial quest.
15:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu no longer satisfied with the historic 'there's no taint damn you all to hell' solution to subj ?
15:42 mircea_popescu anyway, there might be others, i make no pretense to exhaustivity, hence why this is a very early phase of the design. we don't well know the space yet.
15:42 mircea_popescu but you asked, and i tried to provide.
15:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'm always open to technological solutions to replace political solutions.
15:42 asciilifeform aha, and if anyone else can think of something that belongs on the list -- i'm all ears
15:42 mircea_popescu much like i much prefer the "i'll be careful
15:43 mircea_popescu much like i much prefer the "i took my pills" to the "i'll be careful" female declaration.
15:43 asciilifeform aaha
15:43 asciilifeform 'trust allah, and tie the came'
15:43 asciilifeform camel
15:43 mircea_popescu myeah
15:44 mircea_popescu and note that we';re not the onyl ones aware. enemy has placed a strategic urbit right on this space.
15:45 asciilifeform urbit made no presense of decentralization tho
15:45 asciilifeform quite the opposite
15:45 asciilifeform very much 'permissioned coin'
15:45 mircea_popescu i meant the what's it called, alt-coin
15:45 mircea_popescu fluffypony's thing
15:45 asciilifeform 'monero'
15:45 mircea_popescu right
15:45 mircea_popescu dumbass name.
15:46 asciilifeform more recently, the zerocoin (or was it zcash..?) thing
15:46 asciilifeform each based on mathematical sleight of hand, rather than actual crypto
15:46 mircea_popescu only terrorists can add.
15:47 mircea_popescu (in case anyone wonders where the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-16#1614597 scheiderism is going)
15:47 a111 Logged on 2017-02-16 16:16 asciilifeform: 'Security expert and doomsayer Bruce Schneier – speaking by video owing to RSA Conference commitments in San Francisco and perhaps prescience with regard to seasonal travel challenges – predicted that the government is coming to handcuff coders. "We all had this special right to code the world as we saw fit," said Schneier. "My guess is we're going to lose that right, because it's too dangerous
15:47 asciilifeform Licensed Agents Of The Crown may, under some exceptional circumstances, add!111 but Only Terrorists could ever GCD.
15:48 mircea_popescu somehow the fundamental problem of making one's citizens weaker is never evident to these schmucks.
15:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that's what the 'trusted computing' / 'fritz chip' / etc. thing was about. and that it was about this, was obvious in 1995.
15:48 mircea_popescu "oh but if they're strong they might not like us". ~dumbass women always and everywhere.
15:48 asciilifeform it was obvious even to rms, the mushroom man
15:49 mircea_popescu aha.
15:52 asciilifeform btw i know of 1 simple way to make 'blinded input'
15:52 asciilifeform that actually works
15:52 asciilifeform although has own cost
15:52 asciilifeform you could permit a tx to have an encrypted input, if it has a verifiable fallback input, rather like 'co-signer' in banking world
15:52 asciilifeform which gets used if the primary input turns out to invalidate on unblind
15:53 mircea_popescu in other lulkz : cnn, nytimes and the rest of the libertard fake news sites denied white house access.
15:53 asciilifeform that way you can guarantee the validity of a blinded tx.
15:53 mircea_popescu say what you will, the man is fucking killing them.
15:53 mircea_popescu now people will have to click on breitbart to see what trump said at news conference.
15:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: last i heard, they set up a 'parallel whitehouse taiwan' to 'report' on.
15:53 mircea_popescu yeah but,
15:55 mircea_popescu anyway. nytimes/cnn are getting shut down, this year. there's no two ways about it at this point.
15:55 asciilifeform ( to revisit upstack : a transaction could have any number of blinded inputs, ordered by priority, if the ~sum~ moved is public, and there is at least 1 nonblinded fallback 'cosigner' input carried along. )
15:55 mircea_popescu meh cosigners
15:56 asciilifeform well you would use a virginal pile of coin as the cosigner
15:56 asciilifeform it'd never get used up.
15:56 asciilifeform (unless you botch your tx-making and end up invoking the fallback)
15:57 asciilifeform i will guess that the scheme described above, is the closest anyone will ever see to an actual hard-solution to the given problem.
15:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'cosigner' not in the idiot 'multisig' sense, but in the banking sense. 'this unencrypted input GUARANTEES validity of this tx, but if blinded input turns out valid, it does not get balance substracted.'
15:58 asciilifeform *subtracted
15:59 mircea_popescu so "i volunteer this neck to squeeze" ? tyvm.
15:59 asciilifeform special-purpose neck.
15:59 mircea_popescu game suddenly becomes "can you volunteer necks to squeeze" ; empire already reduced the thriving system of euro trade to the sad nonsense of us banking.
15:59 mircea_popescu won't take 200 years the 2nd pass.
16:00 asciilifeform unless someone were to discover a variant of 'zkp' that is not a cynical fraud (fat chance, imho) -- this is what you get.
16:01 asciilifeform 'specify spare neck here'
16:01 mircea_popescu in other news, pol likes trilema http://8ch.net/pol/res/9353080.html
16:02 asciilifeform 'Remember that most of these """journalists""" grew up either during Watergate or in its shadow, and so it's hardly surprising that they see the role of the press as some kind of unelected fourth branch of government whose job is to "take down" the President, if all else fails. Bernstein and Woodward are their gods.'
16:02 asciilifeform lulzy.
16:08 asciilifeform 1 more upstack : it is possible to make a repudiatable fallback. ( how : you publish the privkey of the fallback addr, after, of course, you've successfully moved its contents to a new one. ) now it is not enough for enemy to find some d00d who knows the privkey to said fallback -- he also has to know ~who had it at time t~, because today ~everyone~ has it.
16:13 asciilifeform the other thing is, 'fallback' is a marketable ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618260 ) service. you can post a bond with somebody, and he gives you a fresh addr that you can use as fallback (if you drink it - he drinks up your bond, which is presumably more valuable than the addr amt.)
16:13 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 20:03 mircea_popescu: the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
16:14 asciilifeform the bond can be, e.g., casks of rum, not necessarily btc.
16:14 mircea_popescu yes but now you depend on a type of tx - the moving fallbacks.
16:14 asciilifeform the movement can be farmed out to the specialist ( described in the last example )
16:14 asciilifeform marketable!
16:15 mircea_popescu so you've rebuilt exactly http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618093
16:15 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 18:33 mircea_popescu: no because government does thart for them hurr.
16:15 asciilifeform and it is very much in his interest to do a proper job.
16:15 mircea_popescu this is laughable.
16:15 asciilifeform how is it a government ?
16:15 mircea_popescu whenever your design calls for "and then they will go in front of the cannons, break the enemy's arms and beat them into a pulp with the broken arms" you're not asking for a merchant, but for a soldier.
16:16 mircea_popescu your design requires "always", not "when it's worth the money".
16:17 asciilifeform work out the example where the d00d with the rum, fails in his duty
16:17 asciilifeform your tx-s still won't be groupable by enemy ~to each other~, only to ~all of his backed tx~
16:18 asciilifeform which presumably includes more than just 1 user
16:18 mircea_popescu this was the pretense of shared hosting. it didn't work irl.
16:18 mircea_popescu turns out usg is more than happy to bomb a whole dc, or for that matter wedding party.
16:19 mircea_popescu (i dunno if you recall the net history, was at a point swedish torrent published openly mockful "takedowns" on its website)
16:19 asciilifeform let's rewind to the attack scenario tho. if enemy can group the tx, all he gets is the ability to refuse to mine it, in this case
16:19 asciilifeform which is something he already has ~all of the time~ today
16:19 mircea_popescu so ?
16:20 asciilifeform so as i understand it, the pictured scheme in all cases makes enemy's work no easier than it is now.
16:20 asciilifeform and in many cases - considerably harder.
16:20 mircea_popescu political solution.
16:21 asciilifeform eh we don't even have a cipher of known hardness, nor any approach to one.
16:21 asciilifeform much less a guaranteed-headache for enemy.
16:21 asciilifeform of whatever shape.
16:21 mircea_popescu myeah. that, also, gores on list : cipher of known hardness.
16:21 asciilifeform fwiw i am not convinced that this is possible.
16:22 asciilifeform (outside of otp.)
16:23 asciilifeform ( it is worth ~attempting~, but i know of 0 attempts founded on anything . )
16:23 * asciilifeform searched for year+ and counting
16:25 asciilifeform i suspect that the most that can be hoped for, is a large pile of items that are provable to add ~zero or more~ headache to the enemy, individually AND in the aggregate.
16:25 asciilifeform this MAY be possible.
16:26 asciilifeform so, for instance, you can prove that a k-of-k (must have ALL parts) shamir split, where you then take each share and encipher with different method -- will NEVER be weaker than the strongest cipher used.
↖
16:26 mircea_popescu i guess.
16:26 asciilifeform (i will leave the proof as exercise)
16:41 mircea_popescu in any case i'm not a huge fan of the current address derivation scheme
16:45 mircea_popescu ripemd160(sha256()) + sha256(sha256) checksum ? wtf is this bullshit.
16:45 mircea_popescu and ecdsa key to begin with ? fuck me sideways.
16:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha, it was 'junkyard wars', plain and simple
16:54 asciilifeform pieces the orc found lying around, he used.
16:55 mircea_popescu yeah. actually, im going to write up an alternative addressing shceme.
16:56 asciilifeform i like lamport's
16:58 asciilifeform ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-17#1604147 )
16:58 a111 Logged on 2017-01-17 00:21 asciilifeform: to possibly squeeze something useful from thread: as i understand, a lamport-based 'trb-i' ~could~ run on z80.
16:59 asciilifeform no bignums.
16:59 asciilifeform no numbertheoretical conjectures.
~ 26 minutes ~
17:25 asciilifeform while we're doing trb-i : in addition to 'tx is 1024 bytes, and block is 1024 tx' , consider another item: 'block MUST contain 1024 valid tx'
17:26 asciilifeform now, miner could generate them himself. but now let's also suppose that every tx must also leak an epsilon of coin to /dev/null.
17:26 asciilifeform so now miner has hard incentive to find actual tx in he wild, to fill his block.
17:28 danielpbarron or leaked to a future block to be claimed along with tx fees
17:28 asciilifeform btw i suspect that 'tx must include a micro libation to the gods' -- i.e. a leak -- is a necessary component of 'hard vacuum', 0socialism trbi as discussed earlier
17:29 asciilifeform in essence you are paying holders of coin for the trouble of keeping up with your movements of same
17:32 asciilifeform generating and broadcasting a tx imposes a cost on all users, for all time
17:32 asciilifeform not only to verify it, again and again every time a new machine is stood up,
17:32 asciilifeform but to store it
17:32 asciilifeform imho it is reasonable that the doer of this, pay for it
17:33 asciilifeform and pay ~those on whom the cost is imposed~, rather than miner - an unrelated third party
17:34 asciilifeform the only practical way to do this, afaik, is a deflatory 'gods fee' per tx.
17:35 mircea_popescu eh, deflationary coin will run out of coin.
17:36 mircea_popescu if you mean something like "block subsidy = 100 btc forever ; and each block must contain 1k txn ; and each txn must waste 0.1 btc" then you've done jack shit.
17:36 asciilifeform bitcoin is deflatory...
17:36 asciilifeform run out yet?
17:36 mircea_popescu nope.
17:36 asciilifeform lose key -- lost coin
17:36 mircea_popescu libertards call it that ; but then again they call all sorts of things.
17:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's not what's being discussed here.
17:36 asciilifeform so long as remaining coin is ~infinitely divisible -- not problem
17:37 mircea_popescu no coin is infinitely divisible for reasons we already discussed.
17:37 mircea_popescu even the theory that 1 satoshi is actually the denomination of btc is iffy
17:37 asciilifeform i suspect that you still gotta have the god-fee if you want 0socialism. like or not.
17:37 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/trb-i-addressing-scheme-proposal/ << Trilema - TRB-I Addressing Scheme Proposal
17:38 asciilifeform right now when you make a tx, ~infinite unrelated third parties eat the cost.
17:39 asciilifeform we have, if you will, a kind of leak. which is what all socialisms is, a disjunction where 'i can eat, these others -- pay'
17:42 asciilifeform gotta disincentivize junk tx. ~including those created or abetted by malicious miners~.
17:43 asciilifeform a null seat in a block, IS, i argue, a type of junk tx
17:46 asciilifeform this is one of the ingredients in the 'debottling' from earlier.
17:49 danielpbarron could make it so a tx spending the smallest unspent output without a sig is considered valid
17:49 asciilifeform danielpbarron: elaborate?
17:49 asciilifeform what means 'smallest unspent output'
17:49 danielpbarron like if I sent 0.00000001
17:50 asciilifeform but why would you do that
17:50 asciilifeform if anyone-can-steal it
17:50 trinque "segwit if whatever amount is tiny" ????
17:50 asciilifeform wtf, why
17:50 trinque I'm more interested in the claim that null tx == junk tx
17:51 asciilifeform trinque: consider the base case : empty block
17:51 asciilifeform when miner makes empty block, he imposes a cost of cou and disk on every current and future user of the coin
17:52 asciilifeform and he is even paid, the moterfucker, for this
17:52 trinque I can see it. he does however lose any fees he might've had.
17:52 asciilifeform *of cpu
17:52 danielpbarron not a cost to anyone who already had a tx confirmed 1 to 5 blocks ago
17:52 trinque the perverse incentive to do this ought to diminish over time as things are
17:53 trinque danielpbarron: what's meant is cost to process the block he shat
17:53 asciilifeform fees, in turn , do zilch to offset the cost of relating tx
17:53 asciilifeform *relaying
17:53 danielpbarron you have to process something. a confirmation is a confirmation
17:54 trinque asciilifeform: sounds like fee ttl is contemplated
17:55 asciilifeform trinque: ttl?
17:55 trinque i.e. every relayer gets nibble of fee
17:55 trinque that would balloon txn size though
17:55 asciilifeform no practical way, afaik, to do such a thing
17:55 asciilifeform aha
17:55 asciilifeform it is laughable
17:55 asciilifeform the only practical way to 'pay all users' is by burning some coin.
17:56 mircea_popescu that doesn't pay all users, it pays all holders.
17:56 mircea_popescu it's a rent.
17:57 mircea_popescu rent has been, historically, a poor dike against socialist tide.
17:57 asciilifeform danielpbarron: a block, just occupying its 1MB on my disk, costs something.
17:57 mircea_popescu btw, address proposal, if you missed it.
17:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if 'a' can shit out tx, 'b' shoulders the cost, but unrelated 'c' is paid by a, you have socialistleak.
17:59 mircea_popescu this is true.
17:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: answrd
17:59 mircea_popescu pong lel.
18:00 asciilifeform lul
18:00 asciilifeform might help if somebody did the chore, implemented mp's algo
18:00 * asciilifeform hands full
18:00 mircea_popescu i implemented it!
18:01 asciilifeform proper implement. eats file on stdin, hash out.
18:02 mircea_popescu yawell
18:08 asciilifeform possibly it makes more sense to think of the hypothetical 'god fee' as a ~punishment~ of tx-ignoring miners, rather than a payment to relayers.
18:09 asciilifeform punishments are beneficial, even if a beheading does not grow a corresponding new head on somebody else, or undo the crime which led to the sentence
18:09 mircea_popescu there's not that many empty blocks anyway
18:10 asciilifeform there ever being any, is a perversion
18:10 asciilifeform and i see some ~every day
18:11 mircea_popescu looky, a common strategy of students that are not in possession of the material is to resolve those problems they think they know how.
18:11 asciilifeform and for all i know, most tx are fake, generated by miner himself, or cartel
18:11 asciilifeform who dun give a shit about fees
18:12 mircea_popescu there isn't an administrative solution to the problem you perceive. if the "godfee" is low, it won't matter, and if it;s high it won't work.
18:12 mircea_popescu apparently you can't make the flock be good christians through tithe control.
18:13 asciilifeform the transition from zero-cost to positive epsilon -- matters
18:13 asciilifeform suddenly, spamola becomes very questionable proposition.
18:13 mircea_popescu this is not a factual descreiption. the transition from opportunity cost + 0 to opportunity cost + epsilon may matter, but so far neither record nor theory offer any convincing reason it would.
18:14 asciilifeform ( today a miner can occupy as much of youts and my disk with shit tx, as he wants )
18:14 asciilifeform *yours
18:14 mircea_popescu at the cost of the expensive space in mined blocks. yes.
18:14 asciilifeform not so expensive, apparently, if it sits vacant so regularly
18:15 mircea_popescu i don't see this "so regularly"
18:15 asciilifeform for instance -- any and all 0fee tx
18:16 asciilifeform are same, for this purpose, as nulls, neh
18:16 danielpbarron isn't the vacant block easier for you to validate? shouldn't you prefer most blocks to be vacant except when you have a transaction to send?
18:16 mircea_popescu block averages say 5 btc in fees, for about 1mb of space. average tx costs about 2 bux currently.
18:16 asciilifeform ( can mircea_popescu or any other oldtimer even explain to me why 0fee ever existed?? )
18:16 mircea_popescu danielpbarron if we use a fixed block width it will waste disk space.
18:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes. to get the system off the ground. i explained this before, im pretty sure.
18:17 asciilifeform hmm,ok
18:17 asciilifeform forced measure then.
18:17 danielpbarron how is that wasted space any more than other people's transactions are wasted space?
18:17 mircea_popescu if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
↖
18:17 asciilifeform but why there are 0fees mined ~today~, is beyond me
18:17 mircea_popescu danielpbarron that part wasn't much explained. all mining is technically wasted space for the node, not like they get money for it.
18:18 asciilifeform ^^
18:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
↖
18:18 mircea_popescu contrary to expectations of random orcs.
18:19 asciilifeform node -- bleeds and bleeds. and -- turns out -- operating proper nodes, ain't cheap, esp. with bitcoin's retarded non-O(1) verification, with the db idiocy
18:19 mircea_popescu myah
18:20 mircea_popescu anyway, to get back to the wallet : i would fucking love to see a mpfhf collision on 513 byte input.
18:20 danielpbarron but to have the ability to send/recieve transactions there is the assumption that the space will be wasted -- user takes on the cost of buying a tool in order to use the skill
18:21 mircea_popescu danielpbarron the analogy doesn't hold. currently the tool gives miners cake while nodes pay for the electricity. there's some people cheering on the sides, which i suppose makes the nodes all warm inside ?
18:21 asciilifeform danielpbarron: it ain't 'a cost', like buying a hammer, it's a monotonically-increasing bleed
18:22 mircea_popescu basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖
18:22 danielpbarron a re-occurring cost? like having to replace tools as they wear?
18:23 asciilifeform (ssd ain't cheap, and its price is ~rising~, don't take my word for it, go and see)
18:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu nails it.
18:24 asciilifeform miners get one hell of a free ride, while node operators get such a thick shaft, that there are -- contrary to appearances - virtually none left.
18:25 mircea_popescu pretty much.
18:27 * asciilifeform bbl; meat.
18:37 danielpbarron without any consensus changes, you could put up a node that will only relay transactions which send a fee to itself. user A wants to send transaction X so makes a few versions of it (doublespends) each sending to same place but giving relay fee to whichever node takes it. whoever gets it to a miner first gets the fee
18:39 mircea_popescu you could, in theory.
↖
18:46 danielpbarron those nodes could even give part of the fee to another node for further paid relaying, by giving with the original transaction along with another one that spends the not-yet confirmed fee (not allowed! i know, but in this case maybe it helps more than it hurts)
18:49 mircea_popescu that's what trinque meant by ttl above
18:49 danielpbarron ah, missed that
~ 15 minutes ~
19:05 asciilifeform danielpbarron: O(n^2) -- with orphanages etc. - tx verification-- suxx.
19:05 asciilifeform antecedents-in-existing-block or bust.
19:06 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-story-of-the-bulb-that-was/ << Trilema - The story of the bulb that was
19:10 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 << was spot on
19:10 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
19:11 asciilifeform and 'nodes charge' probably isn't practical
19:11 asciilifeform easy to undercut
19:12 asciilifeform 'race to the bottom'
~ 25 minutes ~
19:38 mircea_popescu myeah.
19:38 mircea_popescu that's the deep lesson in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618597
19:38 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:39 mircea_popescu: you could, in theory.
19:38 mircea_popescu provisioning nodes on the basis of "the minimum number needed" is insanity.
~ 30 minutes ~
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BCB341DDDEF343017F32DED678F07753D22B62F19B274955AC2AD739FC55E6D2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '82.185.178.65 (ssh-rsa key from 82.185.178.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host65-178-static.185-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F5531B421CF54E13A5413500A2CAA7EC23E3D2267C57196B08C217AC2A4EF4B7 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.86.29.254 (ssh-rsa key from 62.86.29.254 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host254-29-static.86-62-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/575A15CF2DA998E5E78663389111EFA3BF1F80A47EEB005ED795EA946D20253F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.47.20.107 (ssh-rsa key from 85.47.20.107 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host107-20-static.47-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F7EE9D7418360EBF5222D566B0A5B811023AC29616EBC02A9EE52BDB5A00038A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '2.116.209.1 (ssh-rsa key from 2.116.209.1 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host1-209-static.116-2-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A558B10A1CCC09194358E0502CAFA4415F57F1944DD9FE618E2A2E2D29EFAC0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.57.196.177 (ssh-rsa key from 217.57.196.177 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host177-196-static.57-217-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/24698AD72475BB28F25AD63CC626A01EC41AF82BC51BC4CB8118FC5B15BDF42E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.57.196.179 (ssh-rsa key from 217.57.196.179 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host179-196-static.57-217-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
20:09 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BCB341DDDEF343017F32DED678F07753D22B62F19B274955AC2AD739FC55E6D2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9692...0219 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '82.185.178.65 (ssh-rsa key from 82.185.178.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host65-178-static.185-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
~ 59 minutes ~
21:09 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FEYhA/?raw=true << thus far on dulap. << very cool alf. wow @ 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 218863ms; db write wait: 175065ms'
21:12 BingoBoingo In other recent classics http://trilema.com/2016/the-fagspital/
~ 18 minutes ~
21:31 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/02/major-us-socialist-party-experiences-first-contested-chair-contest-in-decades-as-internal-divisions-grow/ << Qntra - Major US Socialist Party Experiences First Contested Chair Contest In Decades As Internal Divisions Grow
21:40 shinohai https://github.com/sparky005/constbot <<< Moar losing party tears
21:43 mircea_popescu kikzy
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
22:45 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/02/automotive-insurance-premiums-surging-in-united-states-texting-blamed/ << Qntra - Automotive Insurance Premiums Surging In United States, Texting Blamed
~ 27 minutes ~
23:12 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
23:12 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1142.22, vol: 6191.70566313 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1128.554, vol: 5174.1881 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1142.1, vol: 17915.48912693 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1092.001456, vol: 4756.02690000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1140.23, vol: 2321.4936139 | Volume-weighted last average: 1133.52004477
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