01:59 |
shinohai |
What a log today. Still don't feel bad about sneaking a tranny into the tits promotion and onto the pages of Trilema, where it still sits today. |
| |
~ 3 hours 33 minutes ~ |
05:32 |
punkman |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-04#1001446 << reminds me of "To ask "how specifically is it unprincipled" does not yield an answer, at any rate not above and beyond identifying the party asking with the enemy." |
05:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2019-11-04 19:05:42 asciilifeform: to my shame, mats, i hated kako 'ethnically' , i.e. saw him as unprincipled 'all about the coin' fella. rather like what i nao think of mp . |
| |
~ 1 hours 36 minutes ~ |
07:09 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043270 <<< what? |
07:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss |
07:21 |
mats |
coinbr had my monies |
| |
~ 1 hours 46 minutes ~ |
09:08 |
verisimilitude |
As the common wisdom goes, isn't that an improper use of the possessive? |
| |
~ 5 hours 30 minutes ~ |
14:38 |
asciilifeform |
davout: see 1, 2. |
14:38 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-05-11 04:53:33 jurov: to make matters clear from my side: "withdrawals are possible except for people who ask" === "mpex is in default and thus coinbr too" |
14:38 |
dulapbot |
(therealbitcoin) 2020-06-06 mats: yes, i understand some of you in here wanted just this outcome |
14:39 |
asciilifeform |
and 3. |
14:39 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-05-13 09:48:38 asciilifeform: jurov: be sure to let yer customers know they weren't stolen from, but rather 'condemned to confiscation by the sovereign'. |
14:39 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: 'possession is 9/10th of the law'(tm)(r)(c) |
14:42 |
asciilifeform |
davout: mp committed this act of goxing i suspect simply to see whether any of his remaining cultists would 'blink'. (none did.) |
14:49 |
shinohai |
Pepperidge farms remembers tho |
14:57 |
kakobrekla |
and when it happend to me, instead of doing a bank run, the good folx here (and there) were "kako had it coming" |
14:58 |
kakobrekla |
its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me |
| |
↖ ↖ |
14:58 |
kakobrekla |
pure insanity from my pov |
15:01 |
punkman |
my instinct was that everyone would get kako'd eventually, guess it wasn't wrong |
15:06 |
kakobrekla |
my name was verbalized! |
15:06 |
kakobrekla |
can drown in peace now. |
| |
~ 18 minutes ~ |
15:24 |
punkman |
I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope |
| |
↖ |
15:27 |
punkman |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-03-10#1428696 |
15:27 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2016-03-10 punkman: diana_coman: i just hated everything about it. moving/finding things in inventory, trying to equip things and and ending up with phantom copies if I didn't click just right. Trying to walk and floating at a 45 degree angle, falling to death off smooth hills. The claim sticks that are "points" in space and keys and... I dunno. I suppose some of that might have changed already. |
15:28 |
punkman |
I wonder how it looks now :P |
| |
~ 15 minutes ~ |
15:44 |
shinohai |
punkman, do you really want to know? http://ossasepia.com/wp-content/themes/default/images/header.jpg |
| |
~ 49 minutes ~ |
16:33 |
thestringpuller |
shinohai: meanwhile o3de just dropped so I'm kinda astounded they tried to build a graphics pipeline out of cyrstalspace which is a dead end at this point |
16:34 |
thestringpuller |
also sinbad's Ogre3D has been out for years and I think just added vulkan support iirc |
16:36 |
shinohai |
thestringpuller: Most I ever did with Eulora besides play a bit was fuck about with jurov's lisp listener for it. Managed to get it echo back game activity/trades to irc. That's about it. |
16:36 |
shinohai |
The C++ side was just too gnarly to maintain my interest in it. |
16:38 |
thestringpuller |
reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client |
| |
↖ |
16:39 |
thestringpuller |
at that point why not write voxel engine from scratch? *shrugs* |
16:43 |
punkman |
just picking planeshift was a terrible decision |
16:44 |
punkman |
and then spending 6-7? years fighting the thing instead of throwing it out |
16:46 |
punkman |
ah no, apparently diana started in 2016 |
16:49 |
thestringpuller |
when i tried doing a 3d pipeline export from blender it was like writing max script for 2004 to export 3d models without middleware which is one of the most painful aspects of game development (like late 90s console development) |
| |
~ 33 minutes ~ |
17:22 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ? |
17:23 |
asciilifeform |
(as i understand, the intent was to make 100% from-source 3d thing. i.e. w/out dependence on gpu driver turds. which inevitably means '1990s' style. ) |
17:24 |
asciilifeform |
ftr '1990s 3d graphics' does not have to mean 'rubbish', if talented programmers are involved. (simply so happens that in the s.mg case -- they weren't involved..) |
17:29 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043306 << bbut, such productive!11111 expert!11 |
17:29 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 11:24:46 punkman: I tried playing Eulora, was another point of losing hope |
17:29 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-06-27 10:54:47 asciilifeform: managerial types luvv these to death, they reliably produce 'steady labour' flavour that satisfies performance metrics, whether bureaucratic (reich orgs incl. usg) or sadomasochistic (mp's) |
17:31 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043301 << i could be wrong, but iirc most mpex users in fact got out even before kakobrekla was walked on. |
17:31 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 10:58:04 kakobrekla: its like i gave you "a++" platform to get the fuck out, and you poor fuckers walk over me |
17:32 |
asciilifeform |
asciilifeform, otoh, didn't even have an acct. was in for entirely different reasons. |
17:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!') |
17:41 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: what ought they have picked instead in '16 ? << roll voxel engine that runs purely on CPU then. although GPU drivers do indeed suck, you either choose to stay in 1994 circa PSX (as stated plenty of good games use this aesthetic) or tolerate the turd and use modern aesthetics by leveraging the card |
17:42 |
thestringpuller |
was half expecting announcement of "eulora GPU" at some point |
17:46 |
kakobrekla |
asciilifeform how many scam-schisms before bb fiasco and consequent ba split? |
17:53 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: hm which ones are you thinking of ? ( possibly the 'otc' schism which produced 'assets' ? this was before asciilifeform tuned in -- though it oughta be in log, under #t, asciilifeform imported phf's dump which in turn was purported to go back to '11 ) |
17:53 |
asciilifeform |
( for folx who downloaded db -- is marked 'era 0' ) |
17:55 |
asciilifeform |
crib sheet: 'eta 0' -- above; 'era 1' - #b-a; 'era 2' -- trilemic period when phf had the only reliable logger; 'era 3' -- all fleanode log post-dating 2 (and to present day); 'era 4' -- dulapnet. |
| |
↖ |
17:56 |
asciilifeform |
there is in fact a mix of '3' and '4' lines entered on a typical day now. |
17:57 |
* |
davout is interested in downloading said db |
17:57 |
asciilifeform |
davout: link at the bottom of log page. |
17:57 |
asciilifeform |
it's a cron and runs erry hr. |
17:58 |
davout |
ty |
17:59 |
asciilifeform |
there's one db covering all chans, and subsumed all previous loggers. (the only chan removed was #eulora, after mp kicked snsabot out of it in a fit of 'will buy ticket and then walk! to spite the conductor!') |
18:00 |
asciilifeform |
davout: next to that link is 'source', goes to my www and complete version history of this logotron. |
18:00 |
davout |
i'm mostly interested for historical purposes |
18:01 |
davout |
archiving for posterity |
18:01 |
asciilifeform |
davout: it's there, and if you want commented schema, see src link. |
18:02 |
davout |
thank you |
18:02 |
asciilifeform |
billymg has a mirror (tho his aint tuned into dulapnet yet) so it's unlikely to get lost, even when asciilifeform drowns |
18:03 |
asciilifeform |
moar mirrors, however, the merrier. |
| |
~ 42 minutes ~ |
18:45 |
gregory4 |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043315 << I still remember NeHe productions and such. |
18:45 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 12:38:07 thestringpuller: reading diana_coman's blog on eulora dev was like reading a 3D Game Dev book from circa 2002; would have been impossible to use modern GPU tactics in the 3d engine that was tightly coupled with the client |
18:47 |
mats |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement? |
| |
↖ |
18:47 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-06 19:23:07 dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-06 18:28:29 asciilifeform: mats: depends who eats whom, doesn't it. |
18:51 |
shinohai |
Most fiat institutions not running real node, and seem to be all about "muh layer-2!" from my view. |
18:54 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043352 << imho, btc and fiat-institutions will eternally fight until one devours the other. asciilifeform's orig. involvement was outta curiosity, to see how the hell 'david' not yet succumbed to 'goliath'. |
18:54 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 14:47:14 mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1043284 << if you dont think btc can survive contact with fiat institutions, whats been the motivation behind your btc involvement? |
18:55 |
davout |
i think it's a false dichotomy to consider to be either "fiat" or "butts" |
18:56 |
thestringpuller |
davout: came to that conclusion a few years ago |
18:56 |
asciilifeform |
davout: some form of fiatola will always exist, strictly because more bovine-convenient. |
18:56 |
asciilifeform |
q is whether the printolade-fueled usury 'industry' will succeed in doing to bitcoin what ibmµshit succeeded in doing to linux. |
18:57 |
thestringpuller |
i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle |
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18:58 |
davout |
asciilifeform i have no problem with this kind of scenario |
18:59 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: imho the current exch rate consists largely of air, and is in fact part of the current lizard ploy to 'drop btc from a plane without a parachute' by pumping and periodically dumping |
| |
↖ |
18:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage' |
18:59 |
davout |
after all linux runs most of the interwebz under the hood |
19:00 |
asciilifeform |
davout: have you seen what the 'current' 'linux' consists of ? |
19:00 |
davout |
asciilifeform how would that work? |
19:01 |
davout |
i reckon buttcoin will be an order of magnitude harder to coopt |
19:01 |
asciilifeform |
davout: how does what work ? do you seriously think that the current exch rate is what it is on acct of salarymen spending their pennies to buy coin ? |
19:01 |
davout |
i honestly have no idea |
19:01 |
asciilifeform |
davout: it is possible to get some idea. |
19:01 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-06-10 20:36:13 asciilifeform: shinohai: musk plays a very predictable and straightforward role in the usg.spectable -- helping to maintain the volatility. |
19:03 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: haven't read too much up on it, but el salvador seems to be pulling stunt modeled after this with their "bitcoin wallet". will receive currency in it, can pay bills through it, but can you withdraw coin to personally controlled private keys? (spoiler you can't) |
19:04 |
mats |
as btc matures its harder to credit the exchange rate bogeyman |
19:04 |
asciilifeform |
davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz |
| |
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19:04 |
mats |
volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders |
| |
↖ |
19:05 |
thestringpuller |
very surprised coinbase hasn't nailed the bitcoin exit doors shut permanently - and go the "gold note" route with bitcoin. (robinhood, cashapp, and venmo, all have gone this route) |
19:05 |
asciilifeform |
mats: explain to me how volatility 'doesn't hurt' say a hypothetical asciilifeform who actually needs (as mp would have had it, if i'd have agreed to take the $10k/mo rack) the coin to cover the bill |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
19:05 |
mats |
sucks for you |
19:05 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: option contracts? |
19:06 |
asciilifeform |
sucks for anyone doing anything resembling honest commerce, mats |
19:06 |
asciilifeform |
or what am i missing |
| |
↖ |
19:06 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: with whom? |
19:06 |
asciilifeform |
'volatility is a tax'(tm)(r)(pre-braindamage mp) |
19:07 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: me personally or in general? |
19:08 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: you has said, 'options contracts'. where are these trustworthy entities with whom one ought to be executing such contracts? |
19:08 |
asciilifeform |
(don't tell me... 'mpex' !1111) |
19:11 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: in general, trustworthy person like jurov who is willing to interface with the turds for you at your risk tolerance level - personally i built up local rolodex cash brokers, some willing to underwrite contracts for cash |
19:11 |
asciilifeform |
don't tell me that you think 'bitcoin finance' actually exists. it does not exist. may have briefly, somewhere, existed, and may exist in the future, but afaik currently there's only two known kinds -- mpex-style, where anarchic but 'we'll take yer money, haha, moron, for trusting' and 'kyc' -- i.e. reich's attempts to |
| |
↖ |
19:11 |
asciilifeform |
embrace&extinguish bitcoin; often enuff not even operates w/ actual tx, but with paper surrogates. |
| |
↖ |
19:13 |
thestringpuller |
easier to just go local. like placing bet with local bookie whom's family has been running books since the babe ruth era... |
19:13 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: observe that i did not bank at coinbr. because understood that -- yes, he can 'interface' -- but cannot somehow insure against the bear trap snapping shut, as it was quite obviously, imho certain to at some pt. |
19:14 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: how does an outsider find a trustworthy 'local' ? |
19:14 |
asciilifeform |
don't tell me 'local-bitcoins' or i'ma die of laffter |
19:15 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: word of mouth: parties, bulletin boards, meetups etc. |
19:16 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: as i understand, in e.g. uy where BingoBoingo, is different, but in usa some yrs back it became more or less customary to stfu about possibly having btc, when in public |
19:16 |
asciilifeform |
i picture was rather similar w/ gold during reign of fdr. |
19:17 |
asciilifeform |
i'm not even 100% certain that is from 'political' reason, either -- may simply be that no one wants to part w/ coin anymoar under whatever pretext. |
19:17 |
thestringpuller |
depends on the state; i imagine new york is probably a lot like running drugs. whereas I imagine SF is probably a lot of mETH heads |
19:18 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: i can only comment re: where observed personally. there is for all practical purposes 0 detectable 'local bitcoin scene', near as asciilifeform can tell. |
19:19 |
asciilifeform |
(your mileage may vary, esp. if yer a social buttefly, or if you think that a bitcent going this way and that way is a 'trading scene') |
19:19 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: iirc (don't want to speak for jurov or violate too much confidence), but he in theory could navigate other turds other than mpex, for instance bitstamp and other EU exchanges fwiw |
19:20 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: i cannot speak for jurov , but afaik he has never expressed interest in 'running an mpex'. |
19:21 |
asciilifeform |
theoretically, i suppose, could. but neither him nor anyone in my l1 afaik is interested in such a thing; it is moar or less suicide mission imho (which is why mp in fact stopped, effectively, when 'went private') |
19:22 |
thestringpuller |
i agree, establishing initial connection in local scene is difficult. but so is learning ffa, or setting up trb, etc to some degree; i view it same way as comic trading/collecting scene which is very localized through networks of locally owned comic book stores |
19:23 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: i'm unable to refute the hypothetical existence of an underground network of mp-style moneybags trading btc to/from bags of fiatola while puffing on 'havanas'. but i am not part of such a network and do not realistically expect to be, it is 'dark matter' from my pov. |
19:24 |
asciilifeform |
what i ~am~ aware of the existence of, is an enormous 'astroturf culture' of half-starved wretches engaging in reddit-'commerce' w/ each other and where 1 in 5 is usg provocateur. |
19:25 |
asciilifeform |
~that~ is the only 'meatspace bitcoin scene' accessible 'off the street'. |
19:25 |
thestringpuller |
i mean you don't go to the crack house expecting to meet the kingpin if that's what you're saying... |
19:26 |
asciilifeform |
you go to the crackhouse if you intend to smoke crack. and i've no such intent. |
19:26 |
asciilifeform |
(nor interested in the 'civilized' end of the idiocy spectrum, where various 'respectable' biz which purport to 'work w/ btc' but demand my passport . FUCK them, with red hot poker. ) |
19:27 |
thestringpuller |
there is a reason culturally the plug generally doesn't meet anyone "off the street" |
19:28 |
mats |
this thing where you're only interested in bearer instruments is understandable, but acting like certified instruments are inherently scamtronic is nuts |
19:28 |
asciilifeform |
mats: iirc you pay tax in usa, and so oughta understand why i regard 'plugged into irs' as synonymous w/ scam. |
19:28 |
mats |
if you don't trust the issuer, then sucks for you, don't be ridiculous |
19:29 |
thestringpuller |
mats: kyc based platforms are like instantaneous surveillance tho |
19:29 |
thestringpuller |
you send any BTC through them you're gonna be tracked for life |
19:29 |
asciilifeform |
it aint as it it were some kind of secret, that they mandatorily put errything you touched in dossier. |
19:30 |
asciilifeform |
nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr. |
| |
↖ ↖ |
19:30 |
asciilifeform |
*pointed |
19:31 |
asciilifeform |
i am hard pressed to see what aspect of an item like 'coinbase' ~isn't~ scamatronic. |
19:31 |
mats |
cme does a fuckton of volume in btc futures and nobody's been scammed to date, that doesn't mean they'll never exit scam but their record to date is worth ~something~ |
19:31 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: you would have to talk with the Samourai Devs, not much on them in the logs. or on whirlpool. |
19:31 |
asciilifeform |
mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ? |
| |
↖ |
19:31 |
thestringpuller |
you could in theory "liberate coins" from coinbase but what's the point? |
19:31 |
mats |
its cash settled, what the fuck do you want them to do? |
19:31 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: i'm not interested in passport traps. |
19:32 |
thestringpuller |
still giving them passport |
19:32 |
mats |
'bitcoin finance doesn't exist' is absurdism, can't believe you're saying any of this and not trolling |
19:33 |
asciilifeform |
from my pov it does not exist. because a system where i gotta put in passport and have all tx reported to usg, aint bitcoin. |
19:33 |
asciilifeform |
it's bitcoin-flavoured. y'know, like the 'chocolate flavoured' pseudochocolate they sell in usa. |
19:34 |
thestringpuller |
mats: fiat finance using bitcoin as underlying asset exists centrally; however i've only seen "bitcoin finance" function at local 1 on 1 levels any larger and it topples over |
19:34 |
asciilifeform |
'bitcoin finance' would be if i could do biz with a pgp pubkey strictly, and with 0 questions about meatspace identities etc. y'know, as mp purported to. |
19:35 |
asciilifeform |
almost decade ago, asciilifeform predicted that all such 'financiers' would succumb to temptation of scamming. and afaik all did, or fell victim, jurov-style, to upstream operators who did. |
19:35 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: this purportedly exists in shadows online realms, but i have no experience here so can't opine. |
19:35 |
asciilifeform |
the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out. |
| |
↖ ↖ |
19:36 |
verisimilitude |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043419 That's hilarious. I'd no knowledge it was so bad. There's absolutely no reason to use those, then. |
19:36 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr. |
19:36 |
signpost |
finance with bitcoin as foundation will require a catastrophic event. |
19:36 |
mats |
theres plenty of shadow banking, you just dont want to get involved because afraid of your own shadow or whatever |
19:36 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ? |
| |
↖ |
19:36 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: they left ~one~ Official exchange in usa, thoroughly in reich's pocket, 'coinbase' |
19:37 |
asciilifeform |
mats: i'ma have to take your word for it; and if you're right, my loss, your gain, etc |
19:37 |
verisimilitude |
I didn't think, because I'm not paying any attention. |
19:37 |
mats |
i.e. you can go through the same hoops to move dollars into ar peso |
19:37 |
mats |
shadow banker tells you to wire to some rando corp in hk, bike courier shows up with money |
19:37 |
asciilifeform |
mats: when dollars move ( i dun get paid in physical dollars.. ) usg knows in realtime where goes/comes every cent. |
19:38 |
mats |
so go to the bank branch and ask for cash |
19:38 |
asciilifeform |
lol!!! |
19:38 |
asciilifeform |
mats: tried this recently ? |
19:38 |
verisimilitude |
I saw a fool I know showing me ``his'' dogecoin in ``his'' Robinhood account. I tried to educate him, but he wouldn't listen. |
19:38 |
asciilifeform |
( go in and try e.g. 10btc's worth of cash.. ) |
19:39 |
mats |
i had no problems getting near five figs of physical usd when i visited hk |
19:39 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: if you were to interact with "shadow GPG identity" for doing bitcoin finance, wouldn't you still have to get to know this entity in some way even if names aren't mentioned to establish trust? |
19:39 |
mats |
idk if this works in us, probably need oc or hawala connects if you don't want to scan an id |
19:40 |
asciilifeform |
mats: iirc (ianal) in usa mandatory report threshhold is 1-2k$ |
| |
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19:40 |
mats |
nah, 3k is the optional limit |
19:40 |
mats |
mandatory is at 10 |
19:40 |
asciilifeform |
(and there's a hilarious -- from safe distance -- article in the penal code for merely knowing about it and 'structuring to avoid' ) |
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19:40 |
asciilifeform |
wb PeterL |
19:40 |
mats |
the problems youre describing are american i think |
19:41 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ? |
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19:41 |
thestringpuller |
mats: i think bitcoin hawala exists; but i'm not in the broker business (just use a personal one) |
19:41 |
asciilifeform |
afaik , thestringpuller , they're all here. to a man. |
19:41 |
mats |
not bitcoin's fault you insist on living inside the wire |
19:41 |
asciilifeform |
mats: where are you current, if it aint a seekrit ? |
19:41 |
asciilifeform |
*currently |
19:41 |
mats |
california |
19:42 |
asciilifeform |
lol!! and from there 'you insist on living in the wire!' ?? |
19:42 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: i imagine the same people probably skimming prepaid credit cards - and sitting on 0 day exploits for profit. |
19:43 |
mats |
somehow i live in the us and i don't have your problems |
19:43 |
mats |
talk to more people |
19:44 |
asciilifeform |
mats: iirc you had slightly different problem |
19:44 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-06 17:36:47 mats: if you haven't heard yet, i was also robbed, and there was an extra 0 in my loss |
19:44 |
PeterL |
asciilifeform: my experience has been that Coinbase works for small amounts of transfers btc<->usd, if you don't want to interact with them you could use someone else here as an intermediary? |
19:44 |
mats |
salting the wound are we |
19:44 |
asciilifeform |
mats: not intending to. simply pointing out that it's a choice of which problem to suffer. |
19:44 |
asciilifeform |
rather than 'hey, idjit, why are you sitting in usa' |
19:45 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: i'm curious why you are opposed to meatspace? |
19:45 |
mats |
since the early days discovering btc, i spent years building nets so i could transact kyc free |
19:45 |
mats |
its not cheap but it works |
19:46 |
asciilifeform |
mats: a++; mp bragged about similar. |
19:47 |
signpost |
perhaps slightly more interesting than this is what infrastructure it'd take to satisfy asciilifeform's definition of btc finance. |
19:47 |
* |
asciilifeform simply doesn't have the necessary degree of extraversion to work as mp. |
19:47 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: imho is unsolved problem. recall that even when mpex 'functioned as printed on the box' i scorned it, because ~could~ scam. |
19:48 |
asciilifeform |
(and specifically because pyramidal, and ~must~ at some pt. wasn't wrong) |
19:48 |
mats |
market participation requires trusting ~somebody~ |
19:49 |
asciilifeform |
i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated; |
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19:49 |
asciilifeform |
imho thing to do is to develop ~actual commerce~ in btc. |
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19:49 |
signpost |
this is my reaction to this thread, need more actual things happening in crypto |
19:49 |
asciilifeform |
where, in selected contexts, ~don't need to care~ about e.g. usd rate. |
19:49 |
asciilifeform |
asciilifeform's isp is an example of this. |
19:50 |
asciilifeform |
(halfway, arguably, as still priced in reference to saecular exch rates. but this largely to avoid 'FG problem' where 'wtf, you want 100,000$ for server? maniac') |
19:50 |
* |
signpost expects someone yet to generalize a bitbet-shaped system with reputation, and many parties acting as oracles for w/e real-world events. |
19:51 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: iirc we discussed similar even in '15 (but grr, cannot locate thrd..) |
19:51 |
signpost |
the ethereum shitcoin stack approximates this badly. |
19:51 |
asciilifeform |
purports to, aha |
19:51 |
thestringpuller |
signpost: interesting. would you be wililng to elaborate on how the bitbet-shape would work in your mind? |
19:51 |
verisimilitude |
The only way I'll ever get Bitcoin is as payment for some service; there's naught wrong with that. |
19:51 |
asciilifeform |
but picture if there had been such a thing, and was bet re who wins potus election ! |
19:52 |
* |
mats relives glory days of 2016 |
19:52 |
signpost |
thestringpuller: see e.g. "chainlink" for other gropes at the problem, how to connect on-chain smart contracts with real world events |
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19:52 |
thestringpuller |
signpost: ty |
19:54 |
verisimilitude |
It's simply disconcerting how quickly time passes, isn't it, mats; it doesn't feel as if I've been here for over a year already. |
19:55 |
verisimilitude |
Remembering 2014 feels like old history. |
19:55 |
* |
asciilifeform is possibly 'finance pessimist', i.e. came to believe that the sums required to engage in 'high finance' are NEVER to be found in the hands of honest folx, for fundamental reasons. |
19:56 |
verisimilitude |
It's not pessimism when it's true. |
19:56 |
mats |
ah yes, financial ethnonationalism |
19:58 |
asciilifeform |
mats: not even 'ethnic' pov, but simply 'show me someone with $B who isn't part of a scammer clique' |
19:59 |
mats |
i can imagine all kinds of ways to massage the definition of scam |
19:59 |
asciilifeform |
no need to massage, we have in our 'museum' the platinum standard to refer to.. |
20:00 |
mats |
'exploitation' of people without capital, by using their own capital to build a successful biz, and then retroactively 'scammer' because not organised as a worker co-op or whatever |
20:00 |
mats |
this is bog standard american financial ethnonationalism |
20:01 |
verisimilitude |
Money itself is evil. |
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20:01 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043375 <<< bitcoin is a couple of orders of magnitude harder to "extend" imo |
20:01 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:39 asciilifeform: davout: possibly you missed, while flying planes, but the fiatolacorps succeeded in 'embrace & extinguish' attack against linux; which is why asciilifeform is having to single-handedly maintain a complete gentoo repo simply to run his biz |
20:01 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: imho -- money is an inanimate object. evil people -- are evil. |
20:02 |
asciilifeform |
davout: didja miss the segshit 'extension' ? |
20:02 |
asciilifeform |
go an' try to buy an actual coin nao, from the heathens. |
20:02 |
verisimilitude |
Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil. |
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20:02 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043382 <<< you're missing the whole notion of 'hedging' which is really not financial rocket science |
20:02 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:06:10 asciilifeform: or what am i missing |
20:03 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: does coin that goes into segshit address then comes out of it still count as fungible coin to you? or is coin forever mutilated...? |
20:03 |
asciilifeform |
davout: hedging worx if you have 1) with what 2) with whom. |
20:03 |
asciilifeform |
( and 3) not have usg standing over your shoulder, taking 1/2 of erry coin sold for usg ) |
20:04 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee |
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20:04 |
mats |
while the wealth gap is unfortunate and its very sad all sorts of people are hopeless, its entirely predictable with the advance of science, technology, civilization's collision with the internet, and i don't see a problem with that |
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20:04 |
asciilifeform |
mats: the 'science' of bamboozling people with elaborate 'instruments' indeed advanced amazingly. |
20:04 |
mats |
imho the inequality gap is expanding at about the same rate as the knowledge gap, the median person is more useless than ever |
20:05 |
asciilifeform |
mats: i dun even disagree. |
20:05 |
mats |
so what to do about that? |
20:05 |
mats |
idgaf |
20:05 |
* |
asciilifeform aint in the biznis of 'what do? about saving the whales!!' etc |
20:05 |
asciilifeform |
'1st save yerself' |
20:06 |
mats |
but how do you align this agreement with 'billionaires are scammers, definitionally' |
20:07 |
asciilifeform |
mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?) |
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20:07 |
gregory4 |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043520 << Keys of This Blood by Malachi Martin had a decent chapter explaining how inanimate things can be evil. |
20:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:02:26 verisimilitude: Inanimate objects or concepts can be evil. |
20:07 |
asciilifeform |
gregory4: i'm familiar with the pov. |
20:07 |
asciilifeform |
read ted kaczynski even. |
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20:08 |
verisimilitude |
I'll keep the title in mind. |
20:08 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043419 <<< buttstamp will send to normal address |
20:08 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:30:34 asciilifeform: nor (as pointe out upstack) can you easily get ~genuine~ coin out of a kyc-shithole. iirc jurov reported that he found not 1 which was willing to send to non-segshitness addr. |
20:08 |
mats |
hares are opportunistic carnivores |
20:08 |
mats |
like many prey animals |
20:08 |
asciilifeform |
it's the single most pessimistic pov i know of, gregory4 , cuz if 'money is evil' then we're fucked for eternity, the ~idea~ of money aint going anywhere |
20:09 |
verisimilitude |
Humans advance society, and those benefiting the most certainly aren't human. |
20:09 |
asciilifeform |
davout: interesting ( but have you tested recently ? ) if so |
20:09 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out |
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20:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:31:37 asciilifeform: mats: how do i use cme without plugging in passport & bank acct etc ? |
20:09 |
gregory4 |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043536 << how far does this PoV of yours extend? if elite-controlled inflation (Fed. Reserve) did not exist, would you still think this way? |
20:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:12 asciilifeform: mats: very simply. recognize that you are prey in an ecosystem with predators. hare does not sit to think how to kill all wolves (maybe does? if somehow he has time on his hands?) |
20:09 |
davout |
asciilifeform i don't recall exactly when, but as far as i can remember, somewhere last year |
20:09 |
davout |
sometime* |
20:10 |
verisimilitude |
Capitalism has as much to do with the modern technology as communism, which is to mean next to nothing. |
20:10 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043549 << this is troo in the abstract ! but is also the case that no one has a spare cock. |
20:10 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out |
20:10 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 14:57:19 thestringpuller: i remember asciilifeform saying "spending BTC is like sawing off piece of limb" - very much feels this way the longer goes on. would rather spend whatever comes out of the main cash flow nozzle |
20:10 |
gregory4 |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043540 << Kaczynski was drugged involuntarily as a child, which should be considered a crime against humanity. |
20:10 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:07:55 asciilifeform: read ted kaczynski even. |
20:11 |
verisimilitude |
Money alone does nothing. A man with a mind is necessary. |
20:11 |
mats |
again, why not use a cutout |
20:12 |
gregory4 |
as such, I feel quite sorry for the man, notwithstanding his later crimes. |
20:12 |
asciilifeform |
gregory4: imho d00d was a hero. |
20:12 |
mats |
surely you can trust your best mate from grade school |
20:12 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043436 <<< ring me |
20:12 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out. |
20:12 |
mats |
what a guy |
20:13 |
asciilifeform |
davout: thread is rather all over the place, but wait, you are running a futures exch ? |
20:14 |
* |
asciilifeform brb,teatime |
20:14 |
signpost |
gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there |
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20:14 |
signpost |
possibly lucky it was not as early as kaczynski |
20:14 |
mats |
i've gotten a lot of value out of quasi btc finance, like putting up coin for usd loans so i can maintain my long |
20:14 |
davout |
no, but i've had a decade with countless opportunites to exit scam, which i miserably failed to do, you know me personally, how can you say you'd have no counterparty should you wish to trade? |
20:15 |
mats |
happy to give over my passport to a registered lender if it means i can defer cgt |
20:15 |
gregory4 |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043571 << I am sorry to see. |
20:15 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there |
20:16 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043436 <<< sighs, raises hand. |
20:16 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:35:48 asciilifeform: the remaining ops are 100% usgtronic, i.e. 'passport please!'. count me out. |
20:16 |
davout |
fuck, wrong quote |
20:16 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043462 |
20:16 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:41:07 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: where are these folx, doing biz via pgp, that i oughta be establishing trust with ? |
20:16 |
mats |
jurov too |
20:16 |
mats |
honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book |
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20:17 |
mats |
episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc... |
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20:18 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043488 <<< for a meaningful discussion i suppose it would make sense to distinguish cashola and bankola |
20:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:49:04 asciilifeform: i also suspect that this formulation of the problem -- 'how to safely interface btc with fiatola' -- may be an intrinsically wrong formulation, and intractable as stated; |
20:21 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043514 <<< weirdo |
20:21 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:01:15 verisimilitude: Money itself is evil. |
20:23 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash? |
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20:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:04:10 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: not 'forever mutilated' , but requires 'washing', which costs time, effort, and tx fee |
20:24 |
verisimilitude |
I won't pretend I'm not strange. |
20:24 |
verisimilitude |
Who wants to be a normal person, nowadays? |
20:25 |
verisimilitude |
They're downright disconcerting to observe. |
20:33 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043571 <<< nice read |
20:33 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:14:07 signpost: gregory4: http://trinque.org/2019/09/02/quetiapine/ been there |
20:40 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043584 << 'takers' in the literal sense? defo! |
20:40 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:16:59 mats: honestly i think you'd get at least 3 takers for nontrivial sums if you just put it in the -otc book |
20:41 |
asciilifeform |
the thing is, it aint that asciilifeform 'doesn't trust' e.g. davout . it's that there's more than 1 way to lose errything, counterparty may not be a scammer, but may be at risk for dekulakization because he, in turn, uses 'passport please!' systems, or, alternatively, mpex, etc |
20:42 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043585 << i don't know these people at all ! |
20:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:17:35 mats: episking is still around, darsie does stuff, tbz idles, joecool, etc... |
20:42 |
verisimilitude |
What's wrong with not trusting others? |
20:42 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043590 << key is 'went'. they have to ~no longer be in~ an anyone-can-spend to count as genuine btc per asciilifeform's pov |
20:42 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:23:16 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043526 <<< why? coins that went through segwit adresses have the exact same properties as normal coins when sitting in normal addresses, what would there be to wash? |
20:42 |
davout |
again, you need to trust someone at some point |
20:43 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: nothing , until you need to buy/sell sumthing |
20:43 |
davout |
verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life |
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20:44 |
davout |
asciilifeform yeah of course, as long as they're sitting in a normal address previous history is of zero relevance, i think we're in agreement here |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
davout: per trb mechanics -- factual |
20:45 |
* |
davout is writing about taleb's buttcoin "black paper". guy lost some davout points |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
(no one is getting, realistically, a 100+blk reorg) |
20:45 |
verisimilitude |
Once someone asked me something like how I'd feel if someone besides myself depended on any software of mine that happened to be flawed. I replied it would be funny if someone were damned by completely trusting a stranger and doing no checking beforehand. |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
davout: see also |
20:47 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you. |
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20:48 |
asciilifeform |
sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud. |
| |
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20:48 |
asciilifeform |
(and if not direct fraud -- then 'N degrees away', e.g. jurov imho was and remains 100% honest, himself -- but relied on mpex.. ) |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
if you are asking for something impossible -- you ~will~ be defrauded, if you persist in asking. |
20:49 |
verisimilitude |
Well, the phrasing I'd used at the time was ``I trusted a stranger to write code I trusted my life to. How could this be happening?''. |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
someone ~will~ be found, who defrauds your friend's friend, and your friend will sell you, while himself duped, into the fraud. |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: ever flown in a passenger plane? |
20:50 |
verisimilitude |
No. |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
aite, try not to walk under'em.. |
20:50 |
verisimilitude |
Yes. |
20:51 |
verisimilitude |
Besides, that's different. Plane software actually has standards. |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: used to. |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
today, cpp and indian 'low bidder'. |
20:51 |
verisimilitude |
Compare that to Suckless. |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
missed the boeing scandal, didntcha, verisimilitude . |
20:52 |
verisimilitude |
No. |
20:52 |
asciilifeform |
so then |
20:52 |
verisimilitude |
It's still better than some random dipshit on github. |
20:52 |
asciilifeform |
possibly still. today. and maybe tomorrow. but i fully expect is approaching . |
20:53 |
asciilifeform |
you'd be surprised, verisimilitude , at how much 'dipshit on github' and 'adults in critical systems' increasingly converging. |
20:53 |
verisimilitude |
I wouldn't. |
20:54 |
verisimilitude |
It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies. |
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20:55 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: in late su there was a song (nominally about sovok, but..) 'chained with one chain'. they haven't a choice. |
20:56 |
verisimilitude |
There are too many ``people'' and too few humans on this planet. |
20:56 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: recurring leitmotif. but what about it. |
20:56 |
verisimilitude |
For the logs, humans here are those who can actually think, which only mostly follows racial lines. |
20:57 |
asciilifeform |
upstack, thinking about davout's pov , asciilifeform suspects that the 'cultural divide' b/w e.g. asciilifeform on one end, and davout , mats , on other, is that the latter simply can afford to take serious risks. |
20:57 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:43:31 davout: verisimilitude it's neither a realistic expectation, nor a satisfying way to live one's life |
20:57 |
asciilifeform |
when poor -- cannot. |
20:57 |
mats |
someday alf has to tell me the story of how he met his SO |
20:58 |
asciilifeform |
mats: maybe when we go to kako's to drink for the fuhrer's repose |
20:58 |
mats |
lol |
20:58 |
shinohai |
[~]D |
21:03 |
davout |
let's make it a scuba-diving themed get together |
| |
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21:03 |
asciilifeform |
lol!! |
21:04 |
asciilifeform |
or parachuting. |
21:04 |
asciilifeform |
'it's better than from vodka or from colds!'(tm)(r)(v.vysotsky, 'mountain climber') |
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21:06 |
punkman |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043441 << btw I think one of their guys was arrested in Greece. not sure if they extradited yet. |
21:06 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:36:27 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you think usg hunted down and killed e.g. btc-e ? |
21:07 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: it was a non-reich exchange. so, 'had to die' |
21:07 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043635 <<< lolwut |
21:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:54:36 verisimilitude: It's awful how humans have done so much in computing, and now capitalists throw it to Indians to save some pennies. |
21:08 |
punkman |
asciilifeform: you know every last small-business-man somehow figures out how to steal from USG or insert-gov-here. |
21:09 |
punkman |
I don't get this obsession with "fiat is impossibru, uncle sam gonna get me" |
21:09 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: is very easy (while taking care to remain small) -- until it aint |
21:11 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: i pay ~50% tax rate. plus, regularly, various penalties when usg decided it somehow wasn't enuff. |
21:11 |
asciilifeform |
i'ma eat my hdd before i ever buy or sell a btc at a usg.exchange. |
21:11 |
punkman |
Istanbul is pretty hot place if you wanna do btc-to-cash right now btw |
21:12 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: what am i to do with the cash? stuff in arse ? |
21:12 |
punkman |
mentioning for anyone that might be interested |
21:12 |
mats |
binance is the bigger better handsomer btc e anyway |
21:13 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao |
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21:13 |
asciilifeform |
(fella wouldnt shuddup about istanbul) |
21:14 |
mats |
in fiat news, https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/US10YTIP kek |
21:14 |
asciilifeform |
mats: can translate plz to peasant, for asciilifeform's enlightenment? |
21:14 |
thestringpuller |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043665 << this muthafucka don't miss |
21:14 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 17:13:07 asciilifeform: punkman: iirc mp was interested, but guest of poseidon nao |
21:15 |
punkman |
also if anyone is interested, 9 btc gets you permanent EU residency and villa in .gr |
21:16 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: can't resist to ask, where ? basileus himself, signed with his pgp key, on foreignministry.gr ? |
21:16 |
punkman |
yeah investment visa program |
21:16 |
asciilifeform |
ah, ro has similar. asciilifeform even got a formal quote when was there. |
21:16 |
punkman |
can even get some stocks instead of real estate, but I wouldn't recommend |
21:16 |
asciilifeform |
problem was, they only take dollar wire. |
21:18 |
mats |
real rates on tbonds briefly sank below -1% again as us economic recovery stutters |
21:19 |
asciilifeform |
mats: did 'brrr' printer run outta paper, or what happened there |
21:19 |
kakobrekla |
istanbul is a shithole, asian part sort-of survivable, but still shithole |
21:19 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: i'd like to buy a ticket to the mythical non-shithole |
21:20 |
kakobrekla |
asciilifeform you too to much armchair complaining, like... if you are serious and actually put effort into eg greece thing, you are likely to get peoples help |
21:20 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: if exch rate grows a 0 or 2, would in fact put moar-effort etc. |
21:21 |
kakobrekla |
btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum" |
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21:21 |
kakobrekla |
aint nothing trustless in this world |
21:21 |
verisimilitude |
How's the split chain after the ``hack'', kakobrekla? |
21:21 |
asciilifeform |
as it is, mostly useless thrd, because problem as-posed not imho solvable; prompted by this howler. |
21:21 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 15:04:49 mats: volatility doesnt hurt anyone but speculators and margin traders |
21:21 |
kakobrekla |
one can NEVER be "independend man" |
21:22 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: i don't disagree. hence this comment. |
21:22 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:48:17 asciilifeform: sometimes the very statement of the problem preselects for fraud. |
21:22 |
kakobrekla |
verisimilitude ? |
21:23 |
mats |
asciilifeform: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/great-reflation-trade-buckling-across-154901362.html some bloomberg reporters explainer |
21:23 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: i dun think kakobrekla is 'pushing' ethertardism, but pointing out that it is a natural fuffle for folx who demand impossibilities to be offered eventually. |
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21:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:47:56 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: asciilifeform ftr believes that the 'power of wot' has limits. and i like to formulate it as 'alchemist problem' : a 100% secure wot will help you to choose e.g. a plumber who does honest work. but it will NOT, no mater how constructed, help you to choose an ~alchemist~ who does honest work to make elixir of immortality and philosopher's stone for you. |
21:23 |
asciilifeform |
mats: ty, will read |
21:25 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043683 <<< kek |
21:25 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 17:21:02 kakobrekla: btw, re crying about trustless finance above, my comment is "baahahah, sounds like you fellas are looking for ethereum" |
21:26 |
kakobrekla |
asciilifeform, you always try hard to avoid making money, yet you say you need the "number go up" to unchain yourself... im not here to convice anyone of anything, but,.... two things |
21:27 |
kakobrekla |
one is, do you want to be right or do you want to make money? second, there is a path dependency to unchaining oneself. its easier if you make the money first. (also insert the philosopher king story) |
21:27 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: it'd have to go up rather unrealistically (and at the same time not like this , lol) so largely academic. |
21:27 |
dulapbot |
(alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero. |
21:28 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: the fact is, i aint interested in pyramids, i am not the kind of person who tends to win in them (aside from by not playing) |
21:28 |
kakobrekla |
make the money free and then make nsa make fgs as non profit |
21:29 |
kakobrekla |
not the other way around |
21:29 |
asciilifeform |
actual commerce -- interested in. hence invested (and massively lost) in the uruguay effort. |
21:29 |
* |
asciilifeform cannot afford another uruguay |
21:29 |
kakobrekla |
point is, path dependency |
21:31 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: i don't practice some oddball religion where one eschews profit. but i also don't do pyramids or play similar games which privilege extroverts. |
21:31 |
* |
kakobrekla now waits for the "kako is scumbag he all about the money fella" |
21:31 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: i aint mp, do not 'shoot messenger' |
21:32 |
mats |
i advise trying venues like cme, which can help you hedge your position |
21:32 |
asciilifeform |
mats: after taking 40% of stash via irs, lol |
21:32 |
mats |
or even make money from time to time when contango |
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21:33 |
asciilifeform |
perhaps to the amusement of erryone tunes in, asciilifeform will admit that his biggest, longest-time, and most eager trader was... mp |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
he couldn't get enuff of buying usd. and always paid on time.. |
21:34 |
punkman |
asciilifeform: cannot afford another uruguay << that was pizzaro? |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
21:34 |
kakobrekla |
lemme know when you want to actually move out of usganistan, i cant promise you shit aprat from that i will try to help you out. 250k for greece shouldnt be an impossible number. |
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21:34 |
punkman |
asciilifeform: is your current job remote? |
21:34 |
asciilifeform |
punkman: 100% of my clients remote. |
21:34 |
mats |
40%? you make enough to hit that on your investment portfolio? |
21:35 |
mats |
trump tax cut built a separate ladder for cgt you know |
21:36 |
asciilifeform |
kakobrekla: thing is, i'm only interested in escape if also comes with escape from working. |
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21:36 |
mats |
trick to managing that is tax loss harvesting and borrowing against the assets, interest expense can be deductible |
21:36 |
mats |
investment interest expense |
21:36 |
asciilifeform |
mats: i know, in rough terms, how 'trumps' do it. |
21:36 |
asciilifeform |
mats: it dun scale down to shoestring. |
21:36 |
mats |
https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/content/dam/jpm-wm-aem/documents/washington-watch-spotlight-home-loan-deductions.pdf |
21:37 |
kakobrekla |
asciilifeform, one of the things i learned past few years dealing with n+1 jurisdictions is: stepping stones |
21:37 |
punkman |
if asciilifeform (or anyone else) wants to come for long-ish vacation, I can set up living arrangements, hardware, meatware, bandwidth. |
21:37 |
kakobrekla |
(the other one would be nerves of steel) |
21:38 |
mats |
it definitely scales to shoestring, you pay nothing on long term cg up to 20k (if married), then 12% 10-40k |
21:38 |
mats |
er 12% 20-80k |
21:38 |
asciilifeform |
mats: 1 btc 'out of nowhere' is already >20k cg, neh |
21:39 |
mats |
then borrow against it and cut up the sale across two years |
21:40 |
asciilifeform |
mats: and if the buildings 'under water' ? |
21:40 |
kakobrekla |
its also possible alf is just not that type of a person to step out of the comfort zone and actually pull the trigger and do it. |
21:40 |
mats |
then your loan gets called when goes below 50% ltv or w/e |
21:40 |
kakobrekla |
its a bitch for most people. |
21:40 |
asciilifeform |
( and how does one borrow against btc that's still in an addr you control?? ) |
21:41 |
mats |
have a stash in case you get margined or autoliquidated |
21:41 |
kakobrekla |
basically caught in a local minimum, (or local max if you prefer) |
21:41 |
mats |
well, doh, gotta hand over collateral to lender |
21:41 |
kakobrekla |
mats that requires trust or ETH |
21:41 |
kakobrekla |
bahaha |
21:41 |
asciilifeform |
mats: what i have is a realistic picture of own abilities. so far erry single bet i've made with btc -- lost. |
21:42 |
mats |
youre already making a long bet on btc |
21:42 |
asciilifeform |
one day will lose one more, and that'll be last. |
21:42 |
mats |
this is more of the same |
21:42 |
asciilifeform |
mats: i don't see 'hodling' as a bet, i've so little that if sold would make 0 diff. in my life. |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
( yes eveb single-digit ~$mil would make 0 diff, one cannot live off the interest of it ) |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
*even |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
i see btc as a mechanical toy 1st, and as a kind of lottery ticket a distant 2nd. |
21:43 |
kakobrekla |
step by fucking step |
21:44 |
kakobrekla |
you can just jump 10 casts in one go |
21:44 |
kakobrekla |
cant* |
21:44 |
kakobrekla |
speaking from experiene |
21:45 |
kakobrekla |
(that was the end of the sentence in case it wasnt obvious) |
21:45 |
kakobrekla |
anyway imma go, ciao |
21:45 |
asciilifeform |
laters kakobrekla |
21:46 |
asciilifeform |
revisiting this briefly -- in btc space, for erry 'jumped successfully' i see 'over 9000' wretches holding mutilated stumps of cock. |
21:46 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 16:09:18 davout: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043424 <<< at some point if you want to fuck you're gonna have to take your dick out |
21:49 |
asciilifeform |
it aint even the case that i don't like betting. simply, don't like betting on what i perceive as games played with stacked deck. on items where asciilifeform believes has the ability to stack deck in ~own~ favour, via whatever knowledge -- will happily bet. |
21:49 |
davout |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043713 <<< plox to explain |
21:49 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-07-07 17:32:50 mats: or even make money from time to time when contango |
21:50 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl |
21:54 |
davout |
asciilifeform if you never get out of your comfort zone, you'll stay in your comfort zone, read some self improvement books or whateber |
21:54 |
davout |
and i feel this is a nth rehash of the same, iirc you had this same discussion with mp quite a few times |
21:57 |
mats |
davout: can buy spot btc ATM for ... 34.2k usd, sell mbtz2021 (dec2021) future at 35.2k, capture 'risk free' prem when converges at expiry |
21:57 |
davout |
right |
21:58 |
davout |
reason it isn't arbitraged yet seems to be the difficulty of getting usd into usdt then :D |
21:59 |
mats |
the premium is a lot smaller now, for whatever thats worth |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
davout: i got 'out of comfort zone', in-person smuggled machines into uy; and prior to that, haggled in ro w/ mp's nut of a lawyer. all it got me was -10btc and 2 moar things that'll be brought up at my usg hanging one day. |
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22:03 |
davout |
some people have no problem parachute jumping, but feel anxiety when they need to call strangers on the phone |
22:03 |
asciilifeform |
'not sufficiently out of comfort zone, asciilifeform ! go to afghan, walk on mine field!' |
22:04 |
asciilifeform |
davout: i feel 0 anxiety , believe or not. somehow had that circuit burn out when i was small. |
22:04 |
davout |
i believe |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
simply realistic picture of own abilities. i'm the sort of person at whose expense others win, whenever such situation is possible, it occurs. |
22:05 |
davout |
somehow i can't help feeling that sometimes you're making some things sound impossible because you expect perfection and zero risk |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
nothing's impossible for folx who can afford to lose 9000 times. |
22:05 |
asciilifeform |
(and/or have very flexible def of 'win' ) |
22:06 |
davout |
that's not true |
22:06 |
asciilifeform |
davout: lemme ask straight, do you still work for dough ? |
22:06 |
asciilifeform |
( cuz if yes -- not yet 'won' ) |
22:06 |
davout |
some people have problems speaking to strangers, what do they have to lose though? |
22:07 |
davout |
nah, i'm rich enough |
22:07 |
asciilifeform |
a++. |
22:07 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl |
22:09 |
verisimilitude |
Why call it anxiety; is it not simple apathy? |
22:11 |
davout |
what is apathy if not fear of doing? |
22:12 |
davout |
asciilifeform doesn't strike me as lazy |
22:13 |
verisimilitude |
I'm just viewing this through my lens. |
22:13 |
verisimilitude |
Apathy isn't sloth. |
22:14 |
davout |
maybe my english is betraying me |
22:14 |
davout |
meanwhile, http://fr.anco.is/2021/07/lets-do-some-taleb |
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~ 53 minutes ~ |
23:07 |
asciilifeform |
davout: d00d works for those 'respectable institutions', is part of their periodic 'need to crash btc so we can buy in moar and so it doesn't look like a safe bet to plebes' routine |
23:09 |
asciilifeform |
( see also e.g. ) |
23:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-06-10 14:54:20 asciilifeform: i suppose there's a little entertainment in 'i sold all of my papercoin!' and 4mo later 'lemme tell you what to think about btc' |
23:10 |
asciilifeform |
taleb & co know full well that bitcoin doesn't 'require maintenance', and don't actually believe any of the howlers they regularly emit. but willing to lie for money, is how 'being rich' worx in the modern world. |
23:13 |
punkman |
davout: silly paper, been watching taleb derp about it on twitter |
23:14 |
punkman |
apparently the saifedean guy got taleb to write foreword for his bitcoin book |
23:14 |
asciilifeform |
!q seen-anywhere saifedean |
23:14 |
dulapbot |
saifedean last seen in #trilema on 2017-04-02 04:26:33: in any case, these only inform the last couple of chapters of the book. the rest is mostly economic history and austrian economics on sound money and its perks & fiat money and its disasters |
23:15 |
asciilifeform |
iirc d00d had a crankcase full of rather talebesque diet, etc. crackpotteries |
23:15 |
punkman |
ah yeah some thing about carnivore-diet |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
( see also re subj ) |
23:17 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2017-04-02 asciilifeform: lottery winners have not merely 0 to teach, but 'learning' from them tends to make folx dumber. |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
( and also etc ) |
23:17 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-02-12 20:16:13 asciilifeform: there are few things on satan's green earth more noxious than a lottery winner cum judas goat 'teaching success'. |
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~ 15 minutes ~ |
23:33 |
mats |
lol saifedean has quite the public profile now, MSTR's saylor is a self identified acolyte |
23:33 |
asciilifeform |
mats: what is/was mstr? |
23:35 |
mats |
microstrategy llc, has the biggest btc stash among public corps https://bitcointreasuries.net |
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23:35 |
asciilifeform |
a. |
23:36 |
verisimilitude |
It's an anagram of TMSR. |
23:36 |
mats |
traded in their cash for btc, memefied the shares overnight |
23:36 |
asciilifeform |
( apparently was in log, i simply forgot ) |
23:36 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-10-27 13:51:27 thimbronion: asciilifeform: trinque may have been referring to Microstrategy's 450mm btc buy. This is a publicly traded company, but I don't know if it meets the requirements to be 'official.' |
23:36 |
asciilifeform |
right |
23:37 |
mats |
its an interesting leveraged financial play if you have money stuck in equities markets |
23:37 |
mats |
i.e. tax advantaged acct |
23:39 |
* |
asciilifeform if somehow finds himself anywhere near the position where method from mats applies -- will not forget to try |
23:46 |
mats |
FBO others, gbtc is trading at a ~16% discount, might be worth scooping into a roth ira |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
mats: lol, the usg-sponsored tontine thing ? |
23:57 |
mats |
grayscale btc trust |