Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2021-08-30 | 2021-09-01 →
00:29 asciilifeform << mega-dump today incidentally
00:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 17:11:34 billymg: asciilifeform: yes, they've been 'firing on all cyclinders' lately, but i still don't think they can do this forever (like they do with gld)
00:29 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
00:29 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $46884.17
00:30 asciilifeform ( and they can do it for so long as waterfall runs )
00:31 asciilifeform << if asciilifeform exaggerates, is simply because 'death by 1000 cuts' of spiraling expenses (+ 100% fixed usd income, and largely stagnant -- in last 6mo -- not to mention 'unspendable' -- btc) is painful
00:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 17:06:09 billymg: asciilifeform: that's hyperbole, even by your own account btc has done much much better than inflation
~ 20 minutes ~
00:51 pete_rizzo_ eureka
00:54 asciilifeform welcome to #a, pete_rizzo_
00:54 pete_rizzo_ thanks for the invite
00:54 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: don't forget about the logs.
00:55 pete_rizzo_ yes, thanks. definitely intend to dig into those
00:57 shinohai oh hai pete_rizzo_ ya made it
00:57 pete_rizzo_ barely, but yes
00:59 pete_rizzo_ half the time when i try to explore everything you guys have been up to, i admit, it takes me about 10-15 minutes to wrap my head around where I was previously... :)
~ 18 minutes ~
01:18 pete_rizzo_ Anyway, I guess I'll give you all the brief introduction I gave #asciilifeform via email.
01:18 pete_rizzo_ I was one of the first writers at CoinDesk (now an Editor at Bitcoin Magazine). FWIW I largely now agree with all your respective criticisms of CoinDesk and it's failures over the years...
01:18 pete_rizzo_ I now focus on putting together historical pieces for BM ( that are the products of some months of research. My hopes is these will actually add value to Bitcoin in some way, but I may be suffering from the usual human delusions in this regard...
01:18 pete_rizzo_ I started researching Mircea pretty seriously back in April, as I've followed B-A tangentially over the years. My intent was to write up an overview of his life/work in the same vein as the article above (and other recent work).
01:18 pete_rizzo_ I'm sure some of you will have reservations about talking to me given my past associations, but I guess to that, I would say, I think my Mircea obituary showcased I have an understanding of what bitcoin-assets was about (as much as any observer could at least)
01:19 pete_rizzo_ anyway, sorry if that's long
01:20 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: i rec to read the logs; may find that all of your questions answered already
01:23 pete_rizzo_ That's fair enough (and probably true). I guess what I'm somewhat confused about is where they diverge (and why). I've now read Trilemma and MPOE-PR Bitcoin Talk archives linearly
01:23 pete_rizzo_ So, I guess I've sorted out that Trilemma and B-A split here:
01:23 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: the #t log encompasses all eras incl. #b-a
01:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 13:55:52 asciilifeform: crib sheet: 'eta 0' -- above; 'era 1' - #b-a; 'era 2' -- trilemic period when phf had the only reliable logger; 'era 3' -- all fleanode log post-dating 2 (and to present day); 'era 4' -- dulapnet.
01:27 pete_rizzo_ That's helpful thanks. I'm not quite sure I understand what the 'Era 1' is... Would that be bitcoin-otc, predating bitcoin-assets?
01:28 pete_rizzo_ Sorry 'Era 0'
01:28 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: correct
01:31 pete_rizzo_ Ok. So, just trying something out...
01:32 pete_rizzo_ MP has these early blogs with episodes of his Bitcoin-OTC chats (
01:32 pete_rizzo_ ). So, i should be able to just change the date on the above log link to 10-12-2011 and it will pull that log?
01:36 pete_rizzo_ I guess let me know if I'm thinking about that wrong..
01:36 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: starts in april of '13. loox like era0 not imported yet
01:36 dulapbot (trilema) 2013-04-25 pgp3: just looked at chart... shit... a couple hours can be an eternity in bitcoin land...
01:39 pete_rizzo_ I see. I'd be interested I guess in the early B-A logs... According to MP's accounting on Trilemma that starts on APRIL 2, 2012, but I know also that who created that channel was the subject of some later dispute
01:40 asciilifeform phf's era0 starts here
01:40 asciilifeform (13 apr 2012)
01:40 * asciilifeform was dead certain he had imported era0. apparently not, and only era1 atm. gotta fill it in.
01:41 pete_rizzo_ Glad that was useful then :)
01:41 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform had no part in era0 at all.
01:41 asciilifeform (nor found the goings-on there of much interest)
01:42 pete_rizzo_ Well I guess this at least gives you an idea of how i'm trying to go through the logs and that I do have some rough understanding of the timeline in order
01:42 asciilifeform aha
01:43 asciilifeform iirc the only fella who lived in era0 currently tuned in is kakobrekla (and no idea whether actually following in realtime)
01:43 asciilifeform conceivably he could answer q's re the period.
01:44 asciilifeform ( unless i'm mistaken and punkman also was there )
01:45 pete_rizzo_ Since it's a bit late here, I guess the other question I'll broach is it's hard to get any semblance of tone from the Trilema blog... which by that I mean to say, since MP was prone to aggrandizement how seriously any of the events in the timeline I've sorted out. So, like a basic question I would have, that i'm not sure that the logs could answer,
01:45 pete_rizzo_ is ... how seriously the Lordship list was taken and like whether you guys thought it was a fun thing or a VERY serious thing. Which i admit is a badly phrased question, but hopefully sympathetic on a human level
01:47 pete_rizzo_ Anyway, I hope I haven't intruded too much for now. (And sorry I'm bad at IRC)
01:47 asciilifeform ( select t from loglines where speaker='punkman' order by t limit 1; >> 2014-01-15 12:35:06 . but again that's in mine, and turns out i don't have era0. )
01:47 asciilifeform btw pete_rizzo_ you can grab a copy of the db (link at bottom of log pg) for yourself.
01:48 asciilifeform it's updated hourly.
01:48 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: re lordship list -- can't speak for others, but asciilifeform took entirely seriously.
01:51 asciilifeform e.g. asciilifeform spent large sums, used ~100% of his free time for years ; bingoboingo moved to uruguay when called upon by mp to do so ; various other folx similarly ( in late era 3, one fella went on fruitless expedition to qatar.. )
01:53 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: dunno how long you've been lurking/eating logs; for instance whether you're aware of the pizarro story.
01:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-08 11:59:24 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: having trouble locating the thread on demise of pizarro isp; more specifically the "why" and the "how"
01:54 asciilifeform so, depending what you think means 'serious' -- quite a few people were entirely serious.
01:54 asciilifeform the noobs for whom 'was evening's entertainment' tended to last just that evening or 2.
01:57 asciilifeform 7+yrs of daily work will not fit in any kind of sound bite. so ideally pete_rizzo_ did not come for 'sound bite' but has very specific q's; then possibly asciilifeform et al can help.
01:58 pete_rizzo_ how long I've been lurking... tough to say. I'm pretty sure the first thing I read from the group was The Hard Fork Missile Crisis by @thestringpuller. (Which is still one of the greatest bitcoin articles I've read). From there, I followed the Trilema blog and Qntra, but was never deep into the logs. In 2019 I read The Bitcoin Standard, realized it
01:58 pete_rizzo_ was basically all based on MP and BA and went back and read Trilema, Stringpuller's blog and Dushenski's blog
01:58 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: feel free to leave questions in the log, and then come back , i'ma have to get up shortly
01:59 pete_rizzo_ sounds good. Yes, I'll be here for a bit. If y'all haven't read the history articles I've been putting together they are all told in the present tense of the time, so there's no, here's what so and so said years later...
01:59 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: btw all of qntra is mirrored here.
02:00 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: can you link plz to your articles here ?
02:01 pete_rizzo_ Sure thing
02:01 pete_rizzo_
02:02 pete_rizzo_
02:02 pete_rizzo_ The first one is about the P2SH soft fork, the second one is about the Satoshi/Gavin transition
02:02 asciilifeform a, so far seems to be about the forum people strictly.
02:03 * asciilifeform will bbl
~ 17 minutes ~
02:21 bingoboingo vex:
02:25 shinohai ^ the girls listen to this shit xD
~ 49 minutes ~
03:15 bingoboingo shinohai Their friends all had at least one Insta story featuring Bzrp #36 around the new year?
03:28 verisimilitude Well, my chording journey will end soon, for now.
03:28 verisimilitude I've ordered a buckling spring keyboard, and will begin using that, to compare. I'll have more details in an article.
~ 7 hours 19 minutes ~
10:47 punkman asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
10:48 punkman (or to have last page button)
10:51 punkman even by end of 2014 some called it a "cult"
10:52 punkman there was a declaration of independence, which I can't find right now
10:53 punkman bitcoin grew, #b-a grew, the cult grew, there was business happening, good times
10:57 punkman then there was the bitbet debacle, and #trilema split with a brand new WoT, a lot of people fucked off, a new era for the cult began
11:00 punkman and when I say cult, I tend to agree with asciilifeform's
11:00 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-18 15:06:05 asciilifeform: on this subj, and iirc asciilifeform addressed it before many times -- the reason why will NOT respect whiners about 'cults' -- is that there is NOT in fact such a thing as 'not being in a cult'. the saeculum is ALSO equally a cult. and an especially grotesque one
~ 27 minutes ~
11:28 punkman pete_rizzo: good example of how "lordship" was perceived, nubbins objection to being removed from third lordship list
11:28 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-02-09 nubbins`: as a lord of bitcoin, tmsr~, cognizant of the responsibilities that my words thusly carry, i hereby solemnly rebuke any attempt to strip me of my lordship.
~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
13:17 signpost
13:18 signpost first one I found
13:19 signpost pete_rizzo_: I think you'll find varying views on *what* it was serious about, but yes, serious.
13:21 signpost I was serious about the republic of free, thinking persons. much less so the "mp is god-king".
13:21 signpost nor was it lost on me that the former and latter were in dissonance.
~ 51 minutes ~
14:12 pete_rizzo_ That makes sense @signpost. I wasn't asking that as a slight. I was more just trying to point out, reading older text, it's hard to appreciate tone and how something was perceived. So, it helps when looking at older events to have that gut check. I believe I understand the conceptual framework underlying B-A and hope it's obvious that is what i'm
14:12 pete_rizzo_ interested in understanding in greater detail (as well as its impacts on bitcoin at large)
14:13 pete_rizzo_ It's doubly-so with MP just because his writing style was ... well his writing style
14:15 signpost yep no slight taken.
~ 46 minutes ~
15:02 asciilifeform << not currently, but it'd be trivial to add this reverse-gear
15:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 06:43:09 punkman: asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
~ 26 minutes ~
15:28 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
15:28 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $47314.12
15:28 asciilifeform !w poll
15:28 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
15:28 watchglass : Could not connect!
15:28 watchglass : Could not connect!
15:28 watchglass : Could not connect!
15:28 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698427
15:28 watchglass : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698427
15:28 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.081s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:28 watchglass : Alive: (0.109s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427 (Operator: asciilifeform)
15:28 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.130s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427 (Operator: asciilifeform)
15:28 watchglass : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=698427 (Operator: whaack)
15:28 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.220s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:28 watchglass : Alive: (0.234s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:28 watchglass : Alive: (0.220s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:29 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.253s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:29 watchglass : Alive: (0.347s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:29 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.659s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
15:29 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.497s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=443359 (Operator: jurov)
15:30 watchglass : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
~ 54 minutes ~
16:25 punkman << I posted a bunch of lines before this, seem to have disappeared
16:25 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 06:43:09 punkman: asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
16:25 punkman weird, guess it was a client problem
16:26 asciilifeform punkman: disconnected
16:26 asciilifeform (unlike fleanode, asciilifeform doesn't have the ircd configured for aggressively tossing people who aint PONGing when it PINGs. the flip side of this is that sometimes you'll be talking into /dev/null )
16:26 busybot (unlike fleanode, asciilifeform doesn't have the ircd configured for aggressively tossing people who aint PONGing when it PONGs. the flip side of this is that sometimes you'll be talking into /dev/null )
16:27 asciilifeform oh hm shinohai how come this ln^ triggered the bot ?
16:27 asciilifeform *PINGs
16:27 busybot *PONGs
16:27 asciilifeform lol that'd be why
16:27 asciilifeform shinohai plz fix when you get a chance
16:27 shinohai ahahaha
16:28 shinohai o7
16:28 punkman pete_rizzo_: here's what I wrote to you
16:31 asciilifeform punkman: do me a favour plz and paste'em in for permalog
16:31 asciilifeform (will make it easier for rizzo to reply also)
16:31 punkman <punkman> pete_rizzo: at some point #b-a was getting popular, and to stop randoms from spamming, a system was introduced, where if you had a rating from "assbot" on bitcoin-otc WoT, you could talk in the channel.
16:31 punkman <punkman> mp observed that "This creates a de facto aristocracy" , which a few months later, became the first lordship list
16:32 punkman <punkman> you could say it started off as a tongue-in-cheek thing. before the first list, pretty much anyone that was regularly active in the channel, was rated by assbot.
16:32 punkman <punkman> and yes we joked about it, it was about as serious as those "buy a lord title from scotland" ads that have been around the internet for ages
16:32 punkman <punkman> however, the "Web of Trust" was a serious thing. we thought reputation was important, in contrast to all the clowns involved with bitcoin, who thought they could fuck up and then come back 6 months later and nobody would remember
16:32 punkman <punkman> at some point there was an incident with bitcoin-otc bot, and then the WoT split, and a new separate WoT was created, administered by kakobrekla/assbot
16:32 punkman <punkman> so: we have de facto aristocracy, let's call it a lordship, we have a lordship, the lords need a republic! Thus, B,TMSR (Bitcoin, the most serene republic) / La Serenissima or just "the republic" was born.
16:32 punkman <punkman>
16:33 pete_rizzo_ thanks both
16:38 punkman from my pov, there wasn't a lot of business happening after 2017 and the move to #trilema, so I was much less interested
16:39 punkman there was mainly asciilifeform's useful work, some things supposedly happening with the Eulora game, the failed ISP
16:39 asciilifeform punkman: i suppose you weren't interested in e.g. FG & the isp escapades ?
16:40 punkman asciilifeform work is very interesting, the failed ISP a bit meh
16:45 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: dunno whether you got to the point, in your log readings, where we manufactured hardware
~ 25 minutes ~
17:10 signpost yep, asciilifeform's vision for computing has to be credited for many of the folks that showed up, and much that got done.
~ 20 minutes ~
17:31 pete_rizzo_ also what happened to Pete Dushenkshi:
17:34 pete_rizzo_ maybe i missed it but post above seems odd in the vein of his past writings
17:35 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: fella was a loud, empty drum of a man from day 1 imho
17:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-20 16:49:37 asciilifeform: shinohai: and since we're on subj, i'm not the least bit surprised that pete d. is huffing ether.
17:36 pete_rizzo_ Hm. I see. So he mirrored and wrote interesting things that played around with presenting the values of the group, but largely parroting it seems?
17:37 pete_rizzo_ Idk why that seems surprising, but i guess another example of how reading blogs gives a flat impression
17:37 asciilifeform entirely parroting. (and didn't deny it)
17:38 pete_rizzo_ how do you get from here: to trading NFT frogs and being entitled about it
17:39 pete_rizzo_ i mean if you want to make money on teh bubble til the end of the year, have at it, but there's no morality in it
17:39 asciilifeform was a cardboard man, with cardboard soul, but then inherited a truckload of dough and loaded up on rolexes and similar junk, 'collectible art', etc. and began to prattle about 'financial' this and that
17:41 asciilifeform meticulously collected other, more well-known lottery winners' prattles and in fact through that process latched onto mp.
17:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-12 20:16:13 asciilifeform: there are few things on satan's green earth more noxious than a lottery winner cum judas goat 'teaching success'.
17:44 pete_rizzo_ " I can assure you that someone like myself who tends to fall down rabbit holes now and again is perfectly capable of switching steeds when a faster horse comes along, and NFTs have waaaaay more potential for cultural impact and investment upside than Bitcoin at this point."
17:44 pete_rizzo_ This is a literal quote from this person lol
17:44 asciilifeform was always, imho , this.
17:45 pete_rizzo_ hm. good to know i guess
17:45 pete_rizzo_ Uploaded file:
17:45 pete_rizzo_ I replied. still confusing
17:46 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: consider a lulzy pete_d incident: in '17, he buys a FG, but unable to get it going, largely because he had purchased it simply as 'in-group signal' i suspect. in '19 turned his unit into a 'modern art' installation.
17:48 asciilifeform ( in between, he had apparently attempted, in secret, to make a reseller shop for FG, with 0 stock -- simply pass-through -- with the only value proposition apparently being a ~changed name~ ! )
17:48 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-04-27 mircea_popescu: you may think eg pete_dushenski is a little strange for desiring nothing other than you know, making a new website where to retell fuckgoats shop page "in his own words". but who does anything else, on that sad continent ? where ? when ?
17:50 asciilifeform imho pete_d was a stereotypical extrovert, the kind who 'all about the personalities' and thinks of technical details as irrelevant fluff 'for lesser mortals' to bother with. while was in mp's darktriad orbit -- pushed (what he thought of as) bitcoinism. after expulsion -- went to next, in his mind's eye, 'strong horse'. and so still today.
17:52 pete_rizzo_ @asciilifeform do you have the raw URL for the '17 blog. It seems like it's gone and now redirects
17:54 asciilifeform pete's ? loads fine here
17:55 asciilifeform and if for some reason you can't see the original
17:57 asciilifeform << lemme paste, for permalog :
17:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 13:40:47 pete_rizzo_: Uploaded file:
17:57 asciilifeform 'The points that you put forth here are largely confusing to me reading your past work also. The argument you advanced, so far as I understand it, was that Bitcoin makes money an inflexible mathematical law, and that the cause of advancing it over alternatives is a moral one owing to how this conflicts with the current make-up of global power structures. '
17:57 asciilifeform 'It does seem rather odd given that Bitcoin has now popularly aligned with the ideas you previously helped popularize that you no longer support those views. So, naturally, I suppose I'm curious to understand why. '
17:57 signpost there are a couple archetypes of failed idiots that showed up. this one's the "I'm ahead of the curve" larper.
17:57 asciilifeform ( pete_rizzo_ )
17:57 signpost see also: I'm transgressive! and later "daddy hurt me" varieties.
17:58 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: the key to the riddle, such as it is, is that some people are attracted to 'commotion' rather than technical merit of e.g. bitcoin.
17:58 dulapbot Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
17:58 asciilifeform for them, where 'commotion', there -- 'things are happening', 'let's be there'
17:59 asciilifeform shitcoin (e.g. eth) pushers specialize concretely in creating this kind of atmosphere. the pete_d's follow like moths into light bulb.
18:00 signpost probably another aspect worth mentioning. "this is not my real life".
18:00 signpost I see a lot of escapist-porn in the old logs.
18:01 asciilifeform signpost: imho is an occupational hazard of riding in what seems a 'to the moon!'(tm)(r) lift
18:01 signpost not excluding myself by any means.
18:02 asciilifeform signpost: it aint always coupled with a belief that 'one day, My Real Life Will Start'
18:02 signpost the "real" away from the keyboard is still a slow-motion soviet-style collapse
18:02 asciilifeform (for asciilifeform for instance was and is not. comfortable w/ the knowledge that not errybody gets 'a real life')
18:03 * signpost still thinks the tech stack itself has merit, if probably late by now.
~ 19 minutes ~
18:22 * asciilifeform realizes that the earlier sentence fails parity check. s/.../asciilifeform was not and is not/.
18:26 * punkman would gamble on cheap NFTs, but not about to pay $300 in fees to buy $50 item
18:26 asciilifeform punkman: is there a sudden shortage of what to gamble on , that you'd consider such a thing ?
18:26 asciilifeform pretty sure various 'satoshi dice' clones still exist.
18:26 asciilifeform can gamble all you like there
18:28 punkman I like some of the art, some of them come with physical item, etc
18:28 thestringpuller did pete_d go full mEth head?
18:29 asciilifeform thestringpuller: long ago
18:29 thestringpuller Hilarious that he couldn't get the FG working and put it in an art piece and tried to sell it.
18:29 thestringpuller for 5k
18:29 asciilifeform thestringpuller: once you understand that he was buying 'religious' artifact, it makes 'over9000x' more sense
18:30 thestringpuller then again I only used mine for generating private btc keys - nothing fancy by any means
18:30 thestringpuller well the RNG to generate teh keys
18:31 signpost I wager the dude had some mp hats and suits, or w/e he thought was the equiv.
18:31 signpost note the rolex post that links back to FG post.
18:31 asciilifeform thestringpuller: so you actually used the microscope as microscope, rather than hammer. pete_d -- as hammer.
18:32 asciilifeform signpost: aha. imho fella was entirely consistent, in fact, under the surface.
18:32 thestringpuller i mean that's like saying "here is electon microscope" and I used it for say, looking at 10th grade biology slides for class project
18:32 asciilifeform is what most microscopes in the world used for, what of it.
18:33 signpost asciilifeform: from where I sit the only difference between mp and pete is former had more cash, and a better education.
18:33 asciilifeform schooling is perfectly legit. and in point of fact asciilifeform's 'beef' vs pete_d isn't that he 'misused FG' or somesuch. but simply that 'his lights were on, but no one was home'
18:33 thestringpuller just saying, wasn't doing anything ground breaking with the ground breaking microscope
18:33 asciilifeform signpost: entirely possib
18:33 * signpost was an uneducated derp himself, until he noticed upon reading the classics that mp was filing off serials.
18:34 signpost check it out, it's aristotle with more cock references
18:34 asciilifeform aaha
18:34 thestringpuller but I guess "fundamentals" are good to learn regardless
18:34 signpost heidegger, nietzsche, etc etc
18:34 asciilifeform thestringpuller: my point was that you at least realized that the thing is to look through rather than pound nails or stun fish.
18:35 signpost which, pete_rizzo_, please avoid beatification of the guy.
18:35 thestringpuller what is beatification?
18:36 punkman friend was over for vacation, he would buy as many rolexes as they'd sell him (from specific set of models) to resell back home. he went to jewelry/watch shop, in swimsuite/flip-flops. and they would not sell any to him.
18:36 asciilifeform punkman: lol, did they say wainot ? thought his money was fake ?
18:36 signpost thestringpuller: retroactive purification by church, typically in the context of a pope declaring somebody (after death) was worthy of sainthood.
18:37 punkman could be the looking like a bum, or he has theory about shops refusing to sell to known resellers
18:40 punkman whole thing sounded like the upscale version of "limited edition plastic sneakers"
18:40 thestringpuller signpost: the line "die hero or live long enough to become villain" comes to mind, although not entirely applicable
18:41 asciilifeform punkman: all veblenisms imho largely interchangeable and follow same dynamics.
18:41 asciilifeform thestringpuller: it's bullshit tho
18:41 thestringpuller asciilifeform: never walked into a ferrari dealership in sandles and shorts?
18:42 signpost heh, batman quote?!?
18:42 thestringpuller signpost: if you saw my comic collection and how much I've paid my friend organizing it, you'd wonder why I don't use more of them XD
18:42 * signpost chortles
18:42 asciilifeform thestringpuller: did walk in (long walk in the sun and it had air conditioning..) and the salesfolx were immediately 'lemme show you xyz'
18:42 thestringpuller basement basically a local comic shop now
18:43 signpost if mp was doing anything in bitcoin, he'd have funded a few companies in the wot.
18:43 signpost pretty much end of story.
18:43 shinohai "Alfred, I had that dream again" .... "It's ok Sir, I'll wash the sheets again no problem!"
18:43 thestringpuller asciilifeform: last time I tried they wouldn't even let me get in the car let alone test drive
18:43 thestringpuller signpost: i remember he tried to buy a stake in XotikaTV but thickasthieves declined the offer
18:44 signpost implication isn't it had to be me, either. the guy to fund was asciilifeform, and not with worthless mpex notional paper.
18:44 asciilifeform thestringpuller: i'd guess you tried in 1972 or similar, when 'fancy auto' was still a 'for rockefellers' item rather than 'for plebes willing to max out creditcard'
18:44 shinohai I was gonna outright make a deal to buy Xotika but couldn't get the guy to talk much about it.
18:44 signpost xotika was another good business. look at the onlyfans shit now.
18:44 signpost *potentially good business
18:44 thestringpuller asciilifeform: it's probably cause I looked homeless at the time and not like a reputable member of society
18:45 thestringpuller living too comfortably makes you ridiculously lazy
18:45 signpost not all rich are lazy.
18:45 signpost there are folks funding companies in this space.
18:45 thestringpuller that's why i'm glad I wasn't rich in my 20s i'd probably have heart failure in my 30s
18:45 asciilifeform signpost: funnily enuff (and hm i'm quite certain we had this thread.. but can't seem to excavate) 'not give people coin' was 1 of the mpisms that actually made sense to asciilifeform .
18:45 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-29 15:58:20 asciilifeform: thimbronion: actually this part always made sense to asciilifeform . mp did not want to be surrounded with (what called) 'jobsworths'. wanted fanatics strictly.
18:46 signpost juche business only then?
18:46 signpost this isn't how it's done.
18:46 asciilifeform tho in point of fact he did have salaried devs -- diana for instance.
18:46 signpost right.
18:46 signpost sure, don't give founders coin. give the company coin.
18:46 thestringpuller signpost: i can't find a reason for why xotika shut down, it just vanished one day like some Atlas Shrugged shit
18:46 signpost thestringpuller: imho the whole world needs the collapse we're headed for to buck up.
18:47 signpost nobody's going to john galt us out of the death-terrified stupor.
18:47 punkman there was also a certain lack of a business model that didn't involve shouting at all potential customers "go read 6 months log!!"
18:47 thestringpuller Cause it was entirely closed loop when they released their statements. Hosting, paying the cam girls, etc. Everything 100% coin.
18:47 signpost punkman: indeed.
18:48 signpost thestringpuller: yep, again, there was *at least* an onlyfans-sized opportunity in there.
18:48 thestringpuller Have no idea why it's not here still today? Maybe threats from the spooks?
18:48 signpost the spooks sell drugs. they don't shut this kind of thing down.
18:48 thestringpuller It did shutdown around the time of the pornhub thing with the sex trafficking.
18:48 signpost sloth is right there as ample explanation.
18:48 asciilifeform signpost: re upstack -- mp did 'give company coin'. the catch was that at no point was 'company' an entity distinct from his own whims.
18:49 asciilifeform so only ever 'gave' coin in the sense of moving from own left pocket to right.
18:49 thestringpuller ah yes. a game company that doesn't make games.
18:49 thestringpuller it makes *check notes* server side cryptography for every client call
18:49 signpost if he was actually a billionaire in the 1k bubble he had enough money to single-handedly build the entire bitcoin economy in the 20k bubble.
18:49 asciilifeform thestringpuller: all mp companies actually were to make just one product; errything else -- incidental.
18:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-25 12:56:02 asciilifeform: and secondarily, that what 'we' were doing primarily was stroking a maniac's ego, and that anything else was done -- strictly incidental byproduct. and at all times maniac was struggling to optimize for 'moar product, less byproduct'.
18:49 punkman even rpietila had more playable game than minigame
18:49 signpost fuck him, on those grounds.
18:50 thestringpuller punkman: precisely; and when i logged into eulora it was harder to play than Eve, which is a nope from me dawg.
18:50 signpost dorsey is creating where he got fat and drank. how bout that?
18:51 thestringpuller i will spend my time self harming playing League of Legends instead
18:51 signpost lol
18:52 thestringpuller I don't know how to evaluate Dorsey's actions. All I know is the eth maxi's were hella mad when he said "he wasn't interested in ethereum"
18:52 asciilifeform who's dorsey?
18:52 shinohai The twatter guy
18:53 thestringpuller Jack Dorsey the founder of twitter and square right signpost? I think we are talking about same person
18:53 signpost correct
18:53 pete_rizzo_ yes
18:53 asciilifeform lemme guess, has own shitcoin?
18:53 signpost nope. building on bitcoin.
18:53 thestringpuller nah wants to integrate bitcoin into twitter
18:53 pete_rizzo_ bitcoin only so far
18:53 asciilifeform lol why not also into ferrari. and international mars station.
18:53 thestringpuller and eth maxis were mad he wouldn't integrate nfts
18:53 signpost and before we dur-hur about not really bitcoin, it's not the point.
18:53 signpost the only people building anywhere near btc are dorsies, is the point.
18:54 asciilifeform signpost: well by that token karpeles was building 'even nearer' btc
18:54 thestringpuller the liability of not kowtowing to KYC is too high these days; too many people going to jail
18:54 asciilifeform (unless i'm missing some detail?)
18:54 signpost you are. the point is nobody is building *on* btc.
18:55 asciilifeform thestringpuller: doesn't make a lick of diff. if you're 'kyc' -- you're simply working low wage job for usg.
18:55 signpost they're bolting the empire to a fetish-of.
18:55 asciilifeform aha
18:56 signpost two possibilites if MP did not bother to build. 1) his "billionaire" status was the total notional value on MPEX times the exch rate, like any fractional reserve scam, or 2) worst person ever to live, in terms of opportunity vs execution.
18:56 thestringpuller asciilifeform: irony that my college drug dealers have much more financial freedom...
18:56 thestringpuller or maybe not ironic at all
18:56 mats afaict he has no plans to build a permissioned bitcoin with aml kyc
18:56 asciilifeform can say asciilifeform is thick, but not clear to him that ' all worthwhile things to be built on.' no one builds 'on' e.g. spoons, but spoons still useful.
18:56 signpost the idea that there were no moves available to someone with 1mil actual BTC is not conceivable.
18:57 thestringpuller asciilifeform: but i thought your main criticism is that the bedrock foundations are as flimsy as cardboard
18:57 pete_rizzo_ I'm a bit confused. He helped list a lot of early companies on MPEX, no? Assuming he was a shareholder in many?
18:57 shinohai His latest idea is to build a "decentralized" exchange.
18:57 pete_rizzo_ I've gone back through the logs and don't understand the argument that MPEX didn't support the bitcoin ecosystem of the day. It seems like the only viable ecosystem of non-VC bitcoin businesses
18:57 thestringpuller pete_rizzo_: all those companies folded except S.MG which technically still exists with 8k BTC equity; or maybe never existed at all
18:58 signpost pete_rizzo_: yeah, he listed a few company NFTs on a scam exchange most of us didn't use, and those who did apparently were exit scammed.
18:58 asciilifeform shinohai: lulzy 'fried ice'
18:58 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-10 12:46:11 asciilifeform: punkman: similarly here; you can call e.g. a gox 'decentralized'; doesn't make it so (or for that matter make 'decentralized gox' anything other than a joke, conceptually)
18:58 signpost see logs for mats' episode of this.
18:58 pete_rizzo_ Right, but a lot were shut down due to regulatory pressures no?
18:58 thestringpuller S.DICE was probably the most successful and best MPEx IPO and Voorhees got spooked and delisted it.
18:59 mats mpex is an unregistered exchange, theres no such thing as regulatory pressure
18:59 thestringpuller everything else folded. Bitbet due to "management issues". S.WOL due to lack of betting volume, S.MPOE because I guess MP said "we were too stupid to trade options"
18:59 pete_rizzo_ Right. It just seems like there was a period of BTC company building that was defined by MPEX, GLBSE and Gox, and of those, MPEX was at least the only one that never collapsed/lost money
18:59 mats yes
19:00 pete_rizzo_ I think you would have to look at it as a product of the time. GLBSE was much worse, so was Gox.
19:00 thestringpuller S.QNTR was decent, but couldn't produce revenue.
19:00 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: beg to differ. in may of '20 mp straight out robbed jurov and all of his 'coinbr' users.
19:00 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-11 04:53:33 jurov: to make matters clear from my side: "withdrawals are possible except for people who ask" === "mpex is in default and thus coinbr too"
19:00 asciilifeform i.e. went fullbore gox
19:00 thestringpuller Oh yea and if you happened to have money on MPEx before after 2020 you were goxxed
19:00 signpost correct, which suggests to me the thing didn't even have enough to cover what was in the notional piggy.
19:01 shinohai I got 20K shares in S.MG left if anyone wants to buy >.>
19:01 thestringpuller I remember mod6 saying he was worried MP ran off with his money and he had an MPEx account and that account was anonymous
19:01 pete_rizzo_ Hm. I wasn't aware of the withdrawal problems on MPEX. But I didn't follow it to the point where it shut down. Are there references for when MPEX shut down?
19:01 thestringpuller So I guess he lived long enough to become villain signpost ;)
19:02 * signpost recalls a much earlier sfyl which lost somebody significant btc, but won't mention who unless he feels like it.
19:02 signpost "oops lol this gpg key is 'expired'" episode.
19:02 thestringpuller pete_rizzo_: I will let asciilifeform the oracle of logs do the honors of digging up the thread, since he seems to be able to navigate them as a second nature
19:03 thestringpuller signpost: was that during the ROTA era? or was that with Wences
19:03 asciilifeform thestringpuller: fwiw mp ~personally~ [] wasn't the least bit broke when exited the stage.
19:04 signpost sure, rich. I'm shitting on the "billionaire" thing.
19:04 asciilifeform but mpex easily could've been, being pyramid in the style of mavrodi's MMM.
19:04 thestringpuller asciilifeform: I don't doubt he had money, but the consequence of his actions are indistinguishable from karpeles
19:04 thestringpuller jurov one of the most trusted if not most trusted bitcoin broker getting defrauded?
19:04 asciilifeform thestringpuller: more pretensions than karpeles. and the latter did not create anything like the same calibre of gluetrap.
19:05 thestringpuller jurov never lost a single satoshi of his customer's money
19:05 signpost $45mil is not enough to be single-man VC fund and still live well off one's dividends.
19:05 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: btw have you read asciilifeform's 2013 review of mpex ? imho pertinent.
19:06 thestringpuller the prescient line at the end hits different now
19:06 shinohai Agreed, jurov_ always was A++ person to do business with.
19:07 pete_rizzo_ No. Here's that website on the wayback machine:
19:07 pete_rizzo_ The other link doesn't work for me
19:07 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: are you in china or similar shithole where most www blocked ?
19:07 asciilifeform this seems to be not first 'can't load'
19:07 pete_rizzo_ i'm in the US
19:08 asciilifeform odd
19:08 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: what do you get as errorcoad?
19:08 asciilifeform (in either case)
19:08 signpost pete_rizzo_'s interdicted for consorting with problematic peoples
19:08 asciilifeform lol
19:09 shinohai I suspect pete_rizzo_ 's irc client adds a `]` to the end of link because of the way links work here.
19:09 asciilifeform oh hm
19:10 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_ : was it ^ ?
19:10 pete_rizzo_ yup
19:10 pete_rizzo_ added the bracket
19:11 asciilifeform << never 'officially' shut down in point of fact. simply started 'confiscating' funds of people mp disapproved of. first mike_c, then jurov and his customers .
19:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 14:57:06 pete_rizzo_: Hm. I wasn't aware of the withdrawal problems on MPEX. But I didn't follow it to the point where it shut down. Are there references for when MPEX shut down?
19:11 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-12-16 mike_c: I pulled a MPEX statement in november, but post-dividend I have not been able to (getting the 'Unrecognized signature. Please email your public key first.')
19:12 asciilifeform ( see also )
19:12 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-13 09:48:38 asciilifeform: jurov: be sure to let yer customers know they weren't stolen from, but rather 'condemned to confiscation by the sovereign'.
19:13 shinohai I almost forgot that my final S,QNTR shares were lost in that brouhaha, a bingoboingo kindly compensated me for their value (which he did not hafta do, but was gentlemanly nonetheless ).
19:14 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: above link imho amply illustrates how mp died having thoroughly pissed all over what he had prev. claimed to believe.
19:15 asciilifeform ( see also )
19:15 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-13 13:06:15 asciilifeform: and imho, the folx who paid, got what they were paying for : 1000km of blog about 'majesty', 10GB of photos of naked chix eating caviar, etc. ( if they thought they were paying for 'like nasdaq but w/out confiscations', they were morons, it's a perpetuum mobile and there aint no such thing )
19:15 thestringpuller shinohai: dang. i had really high hopes for QNTR but could never seem to find a revenue stream.
19:15 thestringpuller but i'm finding most journalism is bank rolled and isn't expected to make any money
19:16 shinohai I think Qntra was one of the best Republican ventures at time, I certainly benefited from it immensely, financially and otherwise.
19:16 asciilifeform thestringpuller: virtually all 'journalism' is simply advertising.
19:16 asciilifeform shinohai: i'd've happily continued writing for qntra if still existed.
19:17 thestringpuller asciilifeform: although the domain doesn't exist the spirit can live on and [insert other hippie dippy optimism here]
19:17 shinohai Same, though strangely when I returned in 2020 after conversing with BB, MP abruptly decides to shutter it. (No surprise)
19:17 asciilifeform could still exist, even, if the denoument hadn't taken the wind outta bingo's sails
19:18 thestringpuller hmm. making me want to restart it now.
19:19 asciilifeform thestringpuller: it'd be rather like restarting, i dunno, 'iskra'. or 'der pimpf.'
19:19 asciilifeform the culture is gone.
19:19 * shinohai would gladly start writing again if a neo-Qntra existed but at present has only blog to suffice.
19:20 thestringpuller asciilifeform: no need to be a dream smasher!
19:22 thestringpuller granted the Qntra WP theme was never publicly released
19:22 asciilifeform thestringpuller: if you really want it, ask bb nicely, maybe will share
19:22 shinohai thestringpuller: y not start *new* enterprise with Qntra-esque news instead?
19:23 asciilifeform scoopbot: qntra wasn't simply 'a news www' tho.
19:23 asciilifeform grr
19:23 shinohai kek
19:23 asciilifeform fckig tabcomprlete
19:23 thestringpuller top kek
19:23 * asciilifeform cycles bolt on kvm
19:23 thestringpuller til asciilifeform is human
19:23 asciilifeform s/scoopbot/shinohai
19:24 asciilifeform thestringpuller: there's prolly 1km+ in logs of asciilifeform elbowing kbd in various ways
19:25 thestringpuller asciilifeform: to be fair I thought you were like guy from Snow Crash that is like 70% cyborg and plugged directly into his computer.
19:25 mats the heavily disabled asian guy?
19:25 thestringpuller mats: knows what's up
19:26 asciilifeform thestringpuller: lol
19:26 asciilifeform thestringpuller: in actual fact asciilifeform uses e.g. keyboard older than himself
19:27 thestringpuller I would too, but a certain someone got mad at all the clickity clack
19:27 asciilifeform ( and, for instance, the most recently installed machine in the room asciilifeform currently sitting in, is a msdos box )
19:29 shinohai <<< nah asciilifeform sits in one of these.
19:29 asciilifeform lol i remember these ! same people who made 'imperator'
19:30 * asciilifeform at one time actually considered to install an 'imperator', lol ; then realized that it'd likely destroy stairway here
19:36 thestringpuller only 4300, may actually get this for the basement which is slowly becoming giant toy room for adults
19:36 asciilifeform thestringpuller: if you do -- post about it; i don't presently know anyone who's used one
19:36 signpost lol, needs moar grandma's boy.
19:36 signpost insufficient number of screens.
19:37 asciilifeform iirc there's hooks for 3
19:37 signpost ah!
19:38 * asciilifeform traditionally prefers 'mesh' chairs to the leather stuff tho
19:38 asciilifeform they don't wear through, more or less, at all. and 'arse breathes'
19:38 mats aeron master race
19:38 asciilifeform hey, 'cheap & angry'
19:39 asciilifeform ( foreigners may scatch heads. but in usa actually cheap, as there's ~inexhaustible supply of old ones from defunkt corps )
19:39 mats pff, msrp is like $1300
19:39 asciilifeform mats: no one but megacorp ever pays that stickerprice lol
19:40 asciilifeform iirc the 1 i'm currently sitting in was ~300 , bought from the back of a truck (literally)
19:46 asciilifeform before this gets lost -- the shit-foundations are trivial, in grand scheme of things, to fix. no 'mars missions' needed, no breakthroughs, simply coupla hundred man-hours.
19:46 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 14:52:28 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: but i thought your main criticism is that the bedrock foundations are as flimsy as cardboard
19:46 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-01 15:00:29 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's not a thing that'd rise to the level of 'plan'. asciilifeform in particular wrote 3 things: 'nqb', a largely-complete coder/decoder for the formats used in trb; ffa, with which possible to perform the cryptonumerics; and 'cryostat', to implement a o(1) db .
19:48 asciilifeform software is shit simply because no incentives for the contrary.
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-01 19:19:53 asciilifeform: there are (imho -- ~incurable) perverse incentives at work, which ensure that most of extant softs is liquishit, while the good stuff -- you will ~never hear about .
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-01 19:19:53 asciilifeform: there are (imho -- ~incurable) perverse incentives at work, which ensure that most of extant softs is liquishit, while the good stuff -- you will ~never hear about .
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-01-14 15:29:06 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it only has 'incentive to work' if a) there's competition in the market b) competitors have, potentially, 'moar working' softs
19:48 asciilifeform ( grr #2 was supposed to be this )
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-02 13:45:39 asciilifeform: << it aint about incompetence. e.g. tagged memory architectures existed in 1970s. instead, it's about this. there is 0 systemic incentive to release products which work 'now and forever' and require 0 'upgrades', 'mitigations', etc.
19:51 asciilifeform asciilifeform would happily produce e.g. ada replacement for trb. but for whom? instead currently fixing bugs in a vast legacy [censored] for [outfit no one ever heard of], and similar.
19:51 asciilifeform i.e. 'unsexy' plumbing for people who pay.
20:05 billymg for anyone who's curious, this atk-bridge-2.0 shim worked for me. was able to emerge gtk+3 without pulling in any systemdisms, and from there was able to emerge my preferred text editor, 'sublime text'
20:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 15:31:48 asciilifeform: btw apparently exists.
20:06 billymg someone also made an ebuild for it, which also worked and tricks portage into thinking it's installed
20:08 asciilifeform billymg: neato!
20:08 billymg luly bug report thread here:
20:08 asciilifeform billymg: somehow i thought 'sublime' were commercial/cloased
20:09 billymg The reasons for why at-spi is not optional in gtk+:3 are:
20:09 billymg * Upstream made the decision to make accessibility framework mandatory.
20:09 billymg * It is used in unittests frameworks such as dogtail.
20:09 billymg * We try not to diverge from upstream when there is no clear reason to. Avoiding dbus in the context of graphical applications was not, until now at least.Yy
20:09 billymg nnn
20:09 billymg ignore last few characters, getting used to weechat
20:09 asciilifeform lol
20:10 billymg asciilifeform: sublime requires putting an accept line in package.license, yes
20:10 asciilifeform billymg: items like this are traditionally statically-linked tho
20:10 asciilifeform so rather odd that it has deps
20:11 billymg asciilifeform: not sure, but i know it wouldn't emerge prior to installing gtk+3
20:11 asciilifeform interesting
20:11 asciilifeform 'worst of both worlds'
20:11 shinohai billymg: Did you build weechat using ebuild or manually from sources? I just recently tried to build manually with gcc and builds but segfaults.
20:11 billymg asciilifeform: it might be open source, but still require commercial license?
20:11 asciilifeform possib
20:12 * asciilifeform not uses subj, doesn't know
20:12 billymg i'm now running into other problems with both chromium and firefox
20:12 asciilifeform billymg: what kinda problem?
20:12 billymg i'll post relevant details here, currently churning through another attempt at firefox
20:13 asciilifeform ( if it's fonts -- i've the cure )
20:14 billymg chromium failed on some ninja mksnapshot thing, and looked like machine ran out of memory (despite having 32gb to work with)
20:15 billymg some users reported similar issues, suggested building with -system-icu USE flag
20:15 billymg then it ran into another bug with ninja and again looked like it ran out of memory
20:21 billymg lots of forum posts pointing to nodejs version, or maybe it's icu version, or clang version, etc. etc.
20:24 billymg seems, to me at least, equally 'spray and pray' approach as massaging css
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 16:26:41 asciilifeform: cssism tricks ALWAYS, seems, break ~somewhere~
20:24 billymg and hey, look at that, firefox-91.0.2 built successfully, and works
20:33 * billymg now has working browser so probably won't put too much more time into this, but is now building chromium again in order to reproduce the errors for the logs
20:39 billymg and i'm building the version from this overlay, the upstream versions not fooled by atk-bridge shim, whereas this one makes atk optional provided you have working gtk+
20:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 12:58:15 billymg: asciilifeform: so i found this overlay which has an ebuild for chromium that makes dbus optional, but this depends on the atk use flag, and if disabled, no dbus, but then wants to use gtk3
20:45 billymg asciilifeform: this is the error with system-icu, running again to get the different error with -system-icu
20:46 asciilifeform billymg: may want to try w/ -j1 instead of j9
20:46 asciilifeform (re: the oom)
20:47 billymg asciilifeform: ok, will queue that variation
20:48 * asciilifeform must bbl.
~ 25 minutes ~
21:13 verisimilitude Hello, pete_rizzo_; I enjoyed the two linked articles well enough.
21:15 verisimilitude In the P2SH piece, the following using a feminine pronoun in what I regard an obnoxious way: ``A multisig user would pay for the added transaction size when she spent the coins, while the extra data required posed a smaller burden on the network.''
21:16 verisimilitude In the other, every instance of ``was'' in the first paragraph should be ``were'', as should that in the paragraph containing the phrase ``controlled anarchy''.
21:17 verisimilitude There are other errors I don't deign to mention.
21:31 verisimilitude Check the logs for my messages, pete_rizzo_.
21:32 verisimilitude Check today's logs, that's.
21:34 billymg asciilifeform: for when you return, the other error when attempting with -system-icu
21:34 billymg will now go back to using system-icu and try with -j1
21:37 kakobrekla i see you guys having fun in history class
21:40 kakobrekla what can i say, dont butcher it hehe
21:43 asciilifeform wb kakobrekla . maybe add sumthing, if can spare the cycles.
21:43 asciilifeform kakobrekla: pete_rizzo_ is from some fishwrap iirc but doubt that he'll eat 9000+km of log from '16
21:46 pete_rizzo_ lol
21:47 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: i expect you've already met kakobrekla in the era1 log. chair of bitbet.
21:47 pete_rizzo_ I can read and index a lot of material. I try to make sure I have some guideposts for log digging. just so I have some guideposts and know where/what I'm looking at
21:51 asciilifeform ( for pete_rizzo_ and other log archaeologists -- beginning of the destruction of bitbet . )
21:51 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: sooo... it pains me to say that bitbet was just on the receiving end of a concerted miner withholding attack.
21:52 kakobrekla what/who prompted you to dig through this obscure part of timespace pete_rizzo_ ? maybe i missed it somewhere
21:53 asciilifeform kakobrekla: background and start of thread.
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-25 10:48:50 asciilifeform: meanwhile, this fella replies. if he appears while asciilifeform is out, folx, plox to set a table for him.
21:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 20:47:11 pete_rizzo_: eureka
21:55 kakobrekla ba was like obscure (and eod irrelevant) subsubculture of obscure bitcoin subculture, so remote that its not even mentioned in any of the writings covering bitcoin history.
21:56 asciilifeform kakobrekla: outta curiosity, who in yer mind 'relevant' ? karpeles ?
21:56 kakobrekla asciilifeform im surprised you are not convinced somehow he is sent by the usg haha
21:56 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i have nfi who sent, lol
21:57 asciilifeform log -- public; if e.g. clinton wants to read it, and ask q's -- wainot chew apart for him, may help noobs in future.
21:57 pete_rizzo_ Gonna be kind of a long answer
21:57 asciilifeform (to read it, that is)
21:57 pete_rizzo_ I had reached out to MP in April or so (just prior to his passing). As I said above, I was Editor of CoinDesk (sorry!) from 2013-2019. At the end of 2017, I became pretty convinced bitcoin worked finally. So I left CoinDesk... and resolved to do something better for Bitcoin. I started researching the "block size wars," with the intent of writing
21:57 pete_rizzo_ something like a compendium of that period. But I wasn't super satisfied with what I was doing... felt like I didn't know the people or that I had complete answers for what went on...
21:58 pete_rizzo_ basically after a year of doing interviews for that decided to just go back to the start of Bitcoin Talk and revisit the logs. That resulted in two longer history-type articles that answered questions I had...The first on P2SH (or how bitcoin developer politics took shape post-satoshi). Then I did the Satoshi-Gavin transition (looking at how/why
21:58 pete_rizzo_ that transition took place). I still kept just being really confused about where "bitcoin maximalism" began
21:58 kakobrekla relevant, depends how you measure, but i dont see we did much impact. or maybe im just speaking of myself and you all did magical things somehow that resulted in meaningful differences in the world.
21:58 pete_rizzo_ Looking at the development of bitcoin, it seems to me more and more that B-A was really important to establishing parts of the bitcoin ideology that are much much more mainstream, and that took a lot longer to permeate outward
22:00 kakobrekla anyone read blocksize wars, the bitmex book ? i havent yet
22:00 asciilifeform kakobrekla: from 'can you see the diff in the tv?' lens -- 0. from asciilifeform's pov e.g. trb existing is an entirely different universe (1 in which asciilifeform is willing to use bitcoin) from one where doesn't exist, for instance.
22:00 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i.e. answer depends entirely on observer's pov.
22:00 pete_rizzo_ For example, most of the people involved in the UASF seem to come from B-A. And the entire social stylings of teh movement seem based on 1) Node sovereignty and 2) Being outwardly hostile and soverign. So UASF increasingly just seems like a replay of what developed in B-A
22:01 punkman whatever the influence of #b-a and MP, the bitcoin wizards are still moving forward and piling complexity on the protocol
22:01 asciilifeform punkman: and here is e.g. asciilifeform 1) happily ignoring all of it 2) still able to transact
22:01 pete_rizzo_ yeah but something did change. you can even see it with taproot, where there's a whole class of newer developers who internalized what happened in B-A through the UASF
22:02 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: remind me what 'uasf' was
22:02 pete_rizzo_ user-activated soft fork was the line in the sand against Jihan and the big blockers. It was a piece of code that would have had a certain subset of nodes just implement segwit
22:02 kakobrekla asciilifeform my pov looking back is we rightfully not recognized of achieving anything meaningful. you can hate me now, if you havent yet.
22:03 kakobrekla we are*
22:03 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i don't disagree re 'not recognized'; simply don't think that this reich.recognition ~does anything~
22:03 kakobrekla sorry, im super tired
22:03 asciilifeform fact remains, asciilifeform is able to use classical bitcoin. despite 1e10$ worth of reich efforts.
22:04 asciilifeform this is sufficient 'achieve' from asciilifeform's pov ( and not, lol , his 'achieve' alone ; dun matter any )
22:04 kakobrekla the empirical evidence that your work had anything to do with that is as strong as chinise miners collusion of bbet tx
22:05 pete_rizzo_ hm. yeah sorry to hear that. just giving my perspective. I think the arguments for Bitcoin sovereignty, running a node, anti-developer sentiment, and the social stylings of bitcoin users as aspirationally soverign ended up being pretty foundational
22:05 kakobrekla but if you wanna paint a pretty picutre for pete_rizzo_ etc imma just shutup
22:05 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i don't think you grasp my meaning. simply, bitcoin ~for asciilifeform~ would not exist if the only way to use it were the prb ball o'shit. it'd be simply yet anuther mswin idjicy to him.
22:06 kakobrekla yeah but you dont actually use the goddamn thing
22:06 asciilifeform kakobrekla: how not ? i use. or what, there's a min. # of decimal placed req'd to count as 'use' ?
22:07 asciilifeform *places
22:07 kakobrekla paypal can do that
22:07 asciilifeform mno
22:07 pete_rizzo_ yeah @kakobrekla i'm sure you have a different perspective being inside the thing. It sounded like it all went really badly eventually with TSMR
22:07 asciilifeform kakobrekla: taxpal
22:08 kakobrekla sea shells, cash in mail, food stamp idk whatever
22:08 asciilifeform rright, teleporting seashels you can hide in yer brain
22:08 asciilifeform (where can i buy some?)
22:08 kakobrekla you are not moving anywhere, you said it yourself 100xtimes
22:08 kakobrekla you dont need to hide in brain
22:09 pete_rizzo_ maybe i'm overthinking it... but as far as I figure it, you start with the assumptions. What do people now believe to be true about Bitcoin. Where do those ideas trace back to and who popularized them (if not Satoshi). They have to come from somewhere
22:09 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i'm rather curious, why so invested in 'bitcoin is useless' in your head ? i'd imagine would be opposite, what with having a heap
22:10 asciilifeform pete_rizzo_: 1st step to enlightenment imho -- forget about 'people believe'. most of what you see on the net re: subj aint from 'people', is instead from these..
22:10 punkman I don't see why using prb as "node" is that much different from trb. can craft transactions with many different tools and sign offline, send it whatever node.
22:11 asciilifeform punkman: have you read erry line of prb ?
22:11 asciilifeform ( and formed accurate model of how behaves ? )
22:11 kakobrekla on average month i move a few mil usd worth of it, type of txes that traditional finance rails wouldnt approve of
22:11 kakobrekla that is closer to 'using it' for me
22:12 kakobrekla but whatever
22:12 asciilifeform kakobrekla: by that token mp 'even more used' when moved 1k from one pocket to another (he was in the habit of doing this, i suspect from some ill-conceived notion of obfuscation)
22:12 kakobrekla i didnt come here to argue
22:12 kakobrekla yeah im not doing that
22:14 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i'm not certain that we disagree re the facts. but re ideology. i reject the 'bitcoin sphere' -- y'know, the one that shilled for karpeles, and for bigblox, and segshit, etc. as a political act; without appeal to 'but xyz'. categorically.
22:15 asciilifeform ( could even make solid argument for 'bitcoin still not exists' because fits-in-head provably correct client not yet written, for that matter. )
22:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 15:42:03 asciilifeform: before this gets lost -- the shit-foundations are trivial, in grand scheme of things, to fix. no 'mars missions' needed, no breakthroughs, simply coupla hundred man-hours.
22:16 asciilifeform i.e. trb is still too much of a prb.
22:17 asciilifeform y'know, rather like jew does not care to hear about how great is hitler's autobahn; or hitler does not care to hear about jewish composers. political rejection, no appeal.
22:18 kakobrekla you go to war with the army that you have, not the army you wish you had
22:19 kakobrekla you sould to me like those leftist socio studies homeless hippies
22:19 asciilifeform ultimately you go to war with own feet, and hands, is the thing
22:19 kakobrekla sound*
22:19 punkman this political rejection -> can't do business with anyone was a major problem
22:19 signpost ^^^
22:19 pete_rizzo_ Some of what you all have said is a bit above my head. But hopefully this brings a useful other perspecive and y'all understand where i'm at
22:19 pete_rizzo_ not entirely sure if we're on the same subject
22:19 asciilifeform punkman: can't speak for erryone, but e.g. asciilifeform entirely willing to do biz with anyone -- who gets in the wot!
22:20 punkman what wot?
22:20 signpost drunk uncle stumbles in and pisses on thanksgiving turkey, lol
22:20 signpost howdy kakobrekla
22:20 signpost pete_rizzo_: a fundamental issue of the failed political movement called tmsr is grunted at in this thread.
22:20 asciilifeform punkman: my l1.
22:22 asciilifeform kakobrekla: your pov is 'having principles is for idjit hippies' or do i oversimplify somehow ?
22:23 signpost << before this is lost to the sands, I would really like to know what this costs.
22:23 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 15:46:22 asciilifeform: asciilifeform would happily produce e.g. ada replacement for trb. but for whom? instead currently fixing bugs in a vast legacy [censored] for [outfit no one ever heard of], and similar.
22:24 kakobrekla you can have ALL the principles, which means you need to choose which ones you have ... but oh thats not principled at all! well tough tits its as good as it comes
22:24 kakobrekla cant have ALL
22:24 kakobrekla ffs
22:24 asciilifeform signpost: which, concretely ?
22:24 signpost nqb.
22:24 signpost sorry, finished ada-node.
22:25 asciilifeform signpost: it costs asciilifeform never having to think about employment again; hence # not quoted.
22:25 signpost lolk
22:25 signpost this is the one contract you wont take eh?
22:25 * asciilifeform deliberately left that 'pandora's box' closed , to avoid lulthread
22:26 asciilifeform signpost: it'd require getting off the train of my multi-yr existing ones. which aint replaceable on-demand.
22:26 * asciilifeform expects signpost , having been in the biz, to know how this worx
22:27 signpost yep, wasn't sure if you were signaling slack to fit it in.
22:27 * signpost doesn't expect asciilifeform to never sleep.
22:27 asciilifeform signpost: wat's 'signaling slack' ?
22:27 signpost "I have such and such quarter free to finish this thing"
22:27 asciilifeform lol ifonly
22:27 signpost at which point I'd be asking the assembled why we haven't started a fund to make that happen.
22:28 asciilifeform 'free' for asciilifeform simply means 'i have whole 3wk of evenings! omfg!'
22:28 punkman bitcoinfoundation still has some coin, doesn't it?
22:29 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere jurov
22:29 dulapbot jurov last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-07-02 12:26:27: i read about mp yesterday, then said to myself stop procrastinating and check back
22:29 asciilifeform punkman: theoretically yes (not spent any, iirc, at any pt)
22:30 kakobrekla give it to alfie, he can then 'use the bitcoin' and retire
22:30 kakobrekla will be poetic.
22:30 asciilifeform ( last known broadcast of jurov )
22:30 asciilifeform kakobrekla: laff if you like , it wouldn't suffice even if asciilifeform somehow ate all of it
22:30 kakobrekla meh i dont get any kicks anymore by laffing
22:31 asciilifeform it's good for you, kakobrekla . learn to laff again
22:31 asciilifeform so much to do it at
22:31 punkman I don't see the point in reimplementing trb though. Might as well start from scratch, what help would trb-compatibility be in running node?
22:31 * asciilifeform would've drowned long ago if couldn't laff
22:31 kakobrekla asciilifeform your life is drama to me, not comedy
22:31 asciilifeform punkman: what help is that then you aint building a shitcoin.
22:31 signpost trb's just shorthand for what's now hilariously called "legacy" address transactions and that's it.
22:32 asciilifeform kakobrekla: pleased to be of service
22:32 signpost I'd for example love something that ate blocks and txn, chattered same, stayed reliably at top of chain, and had a raw txn hole
22:32 kakobrekla asciilifeform id rather see you roaming free, believe or not
22:32 asciilifeform signpost: when asciilifeform says 'trb' is referring to the product consisting largely of pre-bitcoin-being-valuable cpp cruft.
22:32 asciilifeform kakobrekla: why ty.
22:32 signpost sure, but as "somewhere in here there's perhaps a protocol" material.
22:33 kakobrekla maybe the world would get that 'elephant trunk' already
22:33 asciilifeform signpost: 90% of it already illustrated in 'nqb'
22:34 asciilifeform kakobrekla: you may find strange, but possibly asciilifeform is missing some mp gene or sumthing, but tends to think 'if people wanted x, they'd pay for x' etc
22:34 punkman does asciilifeform use trb as wallet?
22:34 asciilifeform punkman: of course -- what else to use as wallet
22:35 kakobrekla asciilifeform if people know what they wanted, 1 button iphone wouldnt be a scandal when it debuted
22:35 asciilifeform punkman: i suspect i do moar manual gearshifting when 'walleting' than most folx tho
22:35 asciilifeform (i.e. charge up 'wallet' w/ privs before firing )
22:36 asciilifeform kakobrekla: many yrs ago, asciilifeform younger and moar naive, put btc addr on his www. 'what if rockefeller wants to donate!' etc
22:36 asciilifeform ('surprise' : nope)
22:36 kakobrekla yes naive.
22:37 asciilifeform so then. anyone who 'oh i wish asciilifeform would finish $proggy' -- it's right there, at top of pg.
22:37 asciilifeform right hand corner.
22:37 * asciilifeform not professional beggar, so prolly 'doing it wrong'
22:38 asciilifeform but figured, gotta try errything once.
22:38 kakobrekla there is so much wrong with this i dunno where to begin, but can start by your statements of how cant turn btc into food so therfore its useless to you
22:38 kakobrekla which brings me back to my previous point of how you are not using it at all
22:38 asciilifeform ( oblig lolcat )
22:38 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-02-07 asciilifeform: re: hallucinogen: (translation: most often, the words 'you ought to try everything in life' refer to dope and porn acting, but much more rarely to quantum physics and chemistry'
22:39 asciilifeform kakobrekla: can't turn $miniscule_bag into $nothavingtoworkagain. rather than 'can't turn any into food' lol.
22:39 asciilifeform it aint hard to turn btc into food at 20-30% efficiency.
22:39 kakobrekla so what int are you looking for, curious
22:39 kakobrekla what do you mean 30% wtf
22:39 kakobrekla maybe you should try prb
22:39 kakobrekla can do with 99% there!
22:40 asciilifeform kakobrekla: i thought was clear, referring to taxschwitz.
22:41 kakobrekla what people in eu are doing, is getting those buttkorn powered debit cards and paying at pos at 0 tax
22:41 kakobrekla idk if it works there
22:41 signpost you're in a jurisdiction without cap gains?
22:41 asciilifeform iirc germany neh
22:41 signpost nb
22:41 asciilifeform or hm that was jurov
22:41 kakobrekla im not in germany
22:42 asciilifeform a
22:42 asciilifeform slovenia ?
22:42 kakobrekla not any more
22:43 kakobrekla but if i were, slovenia has 0 tax on crypto
22:43 asciilifeform so this in all of europistan ? sell arbitrary coin , 0 tax ?
22:43 asciilifeform seems difficult to believe
22:43 kakobrekla but this is irrelevant really, what i describe everyone in europe is doing
22:43 kakobrekla and if it doesnt hit bank account, its not on the radar
22:43 asciilifeform aaaa this
22:43 asciilifeform this we have in usa. and even in zimbabwe they have.
22:43 asciilifeform 'not caught, not thief'
22:44 kakobrekla there is no way to report it, even if you wanted it
22:45 asciilifeform mp worked like this -- bags of cash. suitcases. like mavrodi. ( and when he wanted to so much as top off a hosting acct, had to 'get by with a little help from his friends', get someone to use a reichbank . sometimes asciilifeform even. )
22:46 asciilifeform depending on what your interests are in life, can live like this. if you've the skills and 'right time, right place.' ( ftr the only asciilifeform expense payable in physical benjies is tomatoes at the market. )
22:48 asciilifeform the mp essay re usa having effectively 2 currencies, was factual.
22:48 asciilifeform ( and the part where they don't convert 1:1 , even )
22:49 * asciilifeform when in the past attempted to explain it to old world folx, usually met with disbelief
22:50 mats huh? they still have parity
22:50 asciilifeform mats: nominal parity. y'know, like soviet ruble was nominally 6 to a dollar
22:50 asciilifeform (or argentine peso today etc)
22:51 mats i also recall the mp piece saying its still convertible, but not for long
22:51 asciilifeform mats: damn near anything is convertible to damn near anything else; q is at what cost.
22:52 asciilifeform people who routinely need to convert 100+k of usd to/from benjie to/from electrical -- in practice pay considerable premium.
22:52 asciilifeform (incl. but not limited to officials, who otherwise would 'in rem' confiscate)
22:53 mats i'm not aware of any fees involved in depositing a suitcase of cash at the local bank
22:53 asciilifeform mats: 0 fees until you find yourself in fbi jail. then fees.
22:53 mats i mean if you have the paperwork
22:54 asciilifeform and paperwork -- free ?
22:54 asciilifeform or say you got the 100k green by doing sumthing 'terrorist' , like, say, sold a coupla btc w/out giving usg half.
22:54 mats if you operate a cash business then its a cost of operation, irs audits and all
22:54 asciilifeform aha. so -- fees.
22:55 asciilifeform that there's yer fee.
22:55 asciilifeform i.e. you don't get out 100% of what went in. nowhere close.
22:55 asciilifeform i.e. not 'fully interconvertible'.
22:55 mats there's always a spread, even if its a few bips
22:55 mats nobody works for free
22:55 asciilifeform rright but in this case the spread may easily include yer arse
22:56 asciilifeform (on top of 100% of the money, incl. whatever you buried that they know where)
22:56 mats i thought you were going to refer to the mc/visa duopoly boosting prices, or the nontrivial fees in doing money orders and prepaid credit cards and whatever
22:56 asciilifeform nah that's chicken change in comparison
22:56 asciilifeform (i.e. ~arbitrary swift wire is <50bux )
22:57 asciilifeform the high fees are collected with fbi rifle butts at 0300 hrs in yer bed.
22:57 asciilifeform and with soldering iron up arse at ftmeade.
22:59 asciilifeform of course you can also try to pay'em in installments, as e.g. asciilifeform does. but sometimes still will get 'billed' in your bed.
23:01 * asciilifeform not speaking emptily, but has been on receiving end of naggum treatment many times.
23:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-25 14:47:05 asciilifeform: via Pernille Nylehn (his ex) : 'I don’t think I’m revealing a big secret when I tell you that Erik ran in to very serious problemes with the Norwegian IRS. Very serious. They claimed he had earned more than he’d reported to them, and he claimed he didn’t. I absolutely think he was innocent, he was very particular
23:03 asciilifeform ( usa, for folx who haven't been there, is a fascinating hellhole, where even to spend btc is de-facto illegal . naturally not 'evenly enforced' noshit )
23:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-25 10:42:23 asciilifeform: punkman: in usa, if you have any kind of official presence there, when you buy xyz for coin from a usg.corp, they file a 'form 1099' tax report to declare that you've 'sold' coin and received its usd equiv. as 'income' (whether or not it in fact sold in the usual sense) and you eventually get a bill for up to half (!) of the sum.
23:05 * asciilifeform will bbl.
23:05 mats i have no idea what you're talking about in this last line
23:06 mats the tax thing
~ 18 minutes ~
23:24 billymg asciilifeform: same error with -j1, but at least since it was only one thread it made it easier to see the actual line it failed on
23:25 billymg i always love these "what's asciilifeform's magic number" threads
23:26 billymg seems they occur about once per year
23:26 billymg i too would love to know, and would pitch in
23:26 shinohai << I figured this out so nw billymg - turns out it linked to wrong tinfo library, with newer ncurses had to use `-ltinfow`
23:26 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 16:07:02 shinohai: billymg: Did you build weechat using ebuild or manually from sources? I just recently tried to build manually with gcc and builds but segfaults.
23:28 billymg shinohai: ah, sorry, i think i missed that logline earlier somehow. i built emerged weechat from portage, no special steps/flags were necessary
23:28 billymg s/built emerged/emerged
23:29 billymg shinohai: but potentially this is the same problem i'm running into with chromium now?
23:30 billymg as in possibly fixable with -ltinfow?
23:30 shinohai May be! Formerly I linked plain 'ol `tinfo` but gdb showed it was indeed "double linked" so that is what caused my segfault.
~ 18 minutes ~
23:49 billymg shinohai: hmm, toggling that flag doesn't seem to have any effect on chromium's build, it's ignored in the USE list
23:53 shinohai I may have missed your last post on chromium woes, where does it currently fail?
23:53 billymg shinohai:
23:55 billymg shinohai: and with -system-icu, a slightly different error:
23:56 billymg it does look like it's just running out of memory, but running with -j1 didn't work either (still runs out of memory)
23:56 shinohai You have plenty 'o swap ?
23:57 billymg 0 swap right now, but 1tb drive, so could add a large swap file
23:57 billymg might try that next actually...
23:58 shinohai In meantime will see if I dig up anything re: icu - when I did a "degoogled chromium" build from source there was some kind of bug with system icu on mine but I forgot what.
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