Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-05-04 | 2022-05-06 →
00:13 * asciilifeform suspects that verisimilitude misinterprets the notion behind dunbar's number
00:15 asciilifeform ... it aint about 'typical human head can only remember N names'. tho may be fact. is rather about 'typical human has the meatware to give a rat's arse about N people'. (often enuff N , in modern degenerate anthill dweller, ~= 0)
00:15 asciilifeform ... but in no case N > coupla hund.
00:15 verisimilitude I don't have to be some degenerate bugman to not care about others.
00:16 verisimilitude I suppose.
00:16 verisimilitude Now we reach what ``giving a rat's arse'' or ``caring'' means.
00:17 asciilifeform variously interpreted, but generally 'see as playing character rather than npc'
00:18 verisimilitude Alright.
00:19 verisimilitude Sure, in other IRC channels, I certainly don't believe everyone else to be alive as I'm.
00:19 verisimilitude So, a few dozen, sure.
~ 22 minutes ~
00:42 thehorrors [] << I wonder if something like [] could help with that
00:42 bitbot Logged on 2022-05-04 12:19:02 asciilifeform: ... whereas if not embedded, gotta be coupled w/ the proggy ~somehow~
00:43 thehorrors On the other hand, I alway saw the extensive approach (e.g. test coverage) to be more transparent (e.g. sqlite autismo seems to be pretty effective)
00:44 asciilifeform thehorrors: tests have 0 to do with subj
00:44 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-03-11 asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'tests reveal presence of bugs, but never their absence'
00:44 verisimilitude Tests don't work, thehorrors.
00:44 asciilifeform nor does 'coupled' refer to 'embedded in comments'
00:47 verisimilitude Read this, thehorrors.
00:47 thehorrors asciilifeform, I was thinking someting /like/ (conceptually) kelp, so not the comments exactly, but the separation of proof from source code. A separate linked entity.
00:48 verisimilitude Consider how I write machine code: The program is entirely separate from its metadata, and both are entirely separate from the article extensively documenting them.
00:49 verisimilitude This is the way to do it, certainly.
00:51 thehorrors so what do you think about something like sqlite approach? do you think none of their testing works? I have huge respect for Dijkstra, but I don't think his remark means or proofs that "tests don't work"
00:54 thehorrors iterative revelation of the presence of bugs may be an easier approach towards quality than proving the absence - is all I am trying to say
00:57 verisimilitude I don't use sqlite directly, and don't care.
00:57 verisimilitude The silly C language programmers love finding holes to plug.
00:57 verisimilitude They never think to eliminate them entirely.
00:58 verisimilitude The criticize Rust in their stupid justifications, and oddly never mention Ada.
00:58 verisimilitude They criticize, that is.
01:01 thehorrors I find the study of such projects useful nevertheless.
01:02 verisimilitude The only way to write good software is to have it be correct and able to be fast and then have it made to actually be fast. Most software isn't correct, but is able to be fast, and is then made to be slow in an infinitesimal stepping towards correctness.
01:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-04 20:52:27 thehorrors: iterative revelation of the presence of bugs may be an easier approach towards quality than proving the absence - is all I am trying to say
01:02 verisimilitude I find masturbation useful, but I don't think others would necessarily want to watch.
01:03 verisimilitude I understand how this looks, thehorrors.
01:03 verisimilitude The sqlite authors are respected and experienced, whereas I'm not.
01:03 verisimilitude I should be wrong then, right?
01:03 verisimilitude Enough people can't be wrong for decades, right?
01:06 thehorrors heh, you are putting words in my mouth. I am neither interested in promoting sqlite specifically nor trying to evaluate your proficiency. I said what I said - I find things interesting and worthy of examination, especially if they are not orthodox
01:07 verisimilitude Surely I hit close to the mark, right?
01:08 thehorrors I suppose I am still too new here not to be percieved as the guy who is trying to fuck with you and not simply someone who is trying to engage in productive discussion
01:08 verisimilitude Don't feel that way; I fuck with everyone.
01:10 verisimilitude Still, that surely hit close to the mark, I suppose.
01:11 shinohai <<< the former is just sad, the latter is spot on.
01:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-04 21:01:07 verisimilitude: I find masturbation useful, but I don't think others would necessarily want to watch.
01:11 shinohai $vwap
01:13 shinohai $vwap
01:13 busybot The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 39137.50 USD
01:14 thehorrors verisimilitude, which one exactly? My alleged hidden message that Hipp will eat you for breakfast?
01:21 verisimilitude
01:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-04 21:06:29 thehorrors: I suppose I am still too new here not to be percieved as the guy who is trying to fuck with you and not simply someone who is trying to engage in productive discussion
01:24 thehorrors This made me think of the "intelligence-adjusted Dunbar's number": the number of people we are willing to recognize as "playing characters", not the number of people we are cognitively capable of recognizing as such.
01:27 thehorrors or rather "compatibility-adjusted" maybe? I bet there is a distribution: people who are cognitively capable of fitting more than 200 people have inversely proportional predisposition to do so
01:27 verisimilitude Sure.
01:42 thehorrors However, if you delegate your memory of trust to systems like WoT - I bet it can scale actually. Exceptions apply, ofc
01:45 thehorrors But does it need to scale? The more I think about that the less trivial this question becomes
~ 2 hours 16 minutes ~
04:01 signpost << >>
04:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-04 21:06:29 thehorrors: I suppose I am still too new here not to be percieved as the guy who is trying to fuck with you and not simply someone who is trying to engage in productive discussion
04:01 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 20:09:10 signpost: believes in the time-honored tradition of men giving each other shit as much as possible.
04:04 signpost it's a delight to spar, and paying someone respect when you bother to.
04:04 signpost literally, returning their gaze.
04:09 signpost and not only, but telling them what you see, even if you don't like it.
04:09 signpost *if they don't like it
~ 15 minutes ~
04:24 * signpost has meanwhile been putting together the init process for pentacle
04:26 signpost I'll throw another WIP copy of it up on my blog tomorrow sometime for folks that want to test it in a chroot.
04:29 * signpost built bitcoind with it the other day, having ported it and the deps (bdb, boost, openssl, etc) to pbuilds, worked nicely.
04:30 signpost given the importance of bitcoind I see no reason to remove its own build process, but for the bitcoind pbuild I just make -f makefile.unix
04:32 signpost pentacle can be thought of as a spiritual successor to rotor, tbh. I wanted sane and easily reproducible build environments for everything I use.
~ 15 minutes ~
04:47 thehorrors << Sure. There is also sometimes a fine line between sparring and trolling. I've never been interested in either much. There are plenty of opportunities to give each other shit while intelligently discussing ideas, in a much more interesting and subtle way. I suppose it's a matter of preference.
04:47 bitbot Logged on 2022-05-05 04:04:00 signpost: it's a delight to spar, and paying someone respect when you bother to.
04:50 thehorrors keyboard MMA on the other hand does not strike me as a particularly masculine, delightful or respectable activity. Maybe I am just a snob
~ 17 minutes ~
05:07 verisimilitude I'm not trolling.
05:09 signpost thehorrors: I was telling you to hit him back.
05:10 signpost instead of politely discussing the rules, say.
05:11 signpost everyone's atomized into their own pocket of "interesting" enough to halt culture.
05:13 signpost << example of a recent thread where I didn't politely whine that the mods wouldn't remove someone I didn't find "interesting".
05:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-03 19:27:13 signpost: verisimilitude is signaling his status as a middle-caste slave with his nazi racial theory fantasies, lest he be lowered further.
05:17 verisimilitude This refers to those here, right?
05:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 01:09:31 signpost: everyone's atomized into their own pocket of "interesting" enough to halt culture.
05:20 signpost as broadly as the word means.
05:21 verisimilitude I agree, then.
05:21 * signpost will grant that the amish probably still know how to talk to one another, but halted by other means.
05:21 signpost collectively, I suppose.
05:21 verisimilitude Each one of us is in his own world, but with enough tangents to stay.
05:24 thehorrors verisimilitude, I never said you were, wasn't really saing anything about you specifically. It's just I was not sure what to tell you when I say something about sqlite unit testing and you respond with "oh you think I don't know how to use a computer? Huh? Yeah?"
05:25 verisimilitude It's simple misprediction.
05:25 verisimilitude Read what I write here in a monotone, and it will have the intended effect.
05:38 signpost neither of you were communicating well. you quoted a bit from your hidden belief systems, said nothing substantial of the models informing the output.
05:40 verisimilitude It would be a hard sell to tell thehorrors ``Read the entirety of my website.'' now wouldn't it?
05:42 verisimilitude No, I'm not communicating well at all, right now.
05:42 verisimilitude That was a non sequitur, wasn't it?
05:54 thehorrors I am reading more than you might think perhaps. But I am taking it one step at a time.
05:55 thehorrors I've read the entirety of loper-os and about half way through trilema
05:56 verisimilitude That's a lot of reading.
05:56 thehorrors Still trying to answer the question of "what exactly is the project?" I am getting conflicting messages from different sources
05:56 thehorrors yes, I took a deep dive - just the way I like it
05:57 thehorrors It unfolds to me unevenly, with a lot of discontinuities
05:59 signpost this reminded me of a thread where phf and I had a mad.
05:59 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-04-10 phf: you clearly have some twisted issues related to me. ~that was not my intent~. ~i genuinely think that you were speaking of pulling levers~ ~because there's nowhere in the thread where you attempted to dissuade me of my notion~
05:59 signpost complete failure to discuss the unstated parts of our disjunct models of the world.
06:00 signpost kinda funny to read now.
06:00 thehorrors signpost, taking the throughput of the channel into account - how can you hope for efficient model sync?
06:02 signpost there's actually quite a lot of me in the logs at this point, so I imagine it's easier to assemble a me-simulation as time goes on, not harder.
06:03 signpost of the assembled, I was probably the most tech-bro adjacent of the bunch, so phf's nose wasn't even wrong, if allergic.
06:04 thehorrors It seems reductionist. Even though I read all those blog posts - I am nowhere near understanding who Stan or MP are. There was a poet who said something like "a though spoken is a lie"
06:05 signpost I brought my "fuck you, I will discuss any topic I choose to discuss" and I can only imagine was his "casuals are mauling what was a high pursuit", and these had the expected result.
06:06 signpost thehorrors: I'd expect the logs to be more illuminating there, and even that might be hard given the years of context.
06:09 thehorrors well, yeah, that's another thing - the sheer amount of information that keeps accumulating over the years, with context. Good grief. I don't think anyone can read through it all.
06:09 signpost << a republic is a machine which evaluates this question for as long as it can.
06:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 01:54:54 thehorrors: Still trying to answer the question of "what exactly is the project?" I am getting conflicting messages from different sources
06:09 thehorrors that contradicts MP however
06:10 signpost say how?
06:10 thehorrors he was all about "measurable outcome". Struggling to find that post in bookmarks
06:11 thehorrors it was the post about utopias
06:12 thehorrors
06:12 signpost mp's notion that everyone not sucking on his toes was an NPC had a lot to do with limiting his impact on the world.
06:12 thehorrors "concrete reference" he called it
06:12 signpost but I don't see a contradiction in valuing measurable outcomes.
06:13 thehorrors I tend to distill concrete ideas, I am not particularly fond of his (public) character
06:15 signpost doesn't building one product inform the next one you build?
06:15 signpost iterating on "what's the project" is what a business is.
06:17 verisimilitude Has anyone seen a functional business, then?
06:17 verisimilitude This seems more like the myth of a business.
06:20 signpost depending on where you put the goalposts, I ran one for a decade.
06:20 signpost might even fart out another, who knows
06:21 thehorrors I got disconnected for a second. Anyways, the closest I've found is
06:21 verisimilitude Fine, signpost.
06:26 signpost thehorrors: << this thread might have some useful context
06:26 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-30 20:49:40 pete_rizzo_: thanks for the invite
06:26 thehorrors He had a business, other people in tmsr had businesses. I think tmsr was something else for him, something he abandoned in 2020; I've found his rationale unsatisfactory.
06:26 thehorrors I'll read it
06:26 signpost try to stop using hand-waving like "something else"
06:27 signpost what else?
06:27 signpost << e.g.
06:27 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 06:46:41 punkman: even by end of 2014 some called it a "cult"
06:27 signpost I think the vision was as grand as reality would allow, and it didn't.
06:28 thehorrors I'd tell you if I understood. Some sort of movement is my current understanding.
06:29 thehorrors (clearly flirting with cryptoanarchy)
06:32 signpost I'm not an anarchist, but a republican.
06:32 thehorrors but also a sort of a mix between "bronze age", Plato, "might is right" and early Peterson-esque type of initiatives.
06:33 thehorrors Oh I am not talking about you, signpost
06:33 thehorrors I am talking about my attempt to understand what MP was about
06:33 signpost afaik we preceded peterson's public life by years.
06:34 signpost << at some point mp turned from republicanism to this kind of monarchial thinking, continued to call it republicanism.
06:34 signpost but also feudalism, because "eat shit, I will force you to embody contradiction"
06:36 signpost that said I don't even dislike peterson.
06:37 signpost he could stop crying so much while he's preaching traditionalism, but I've never quit benzos, so what do I know.
06:41 thehorrors << hmm
06:41 signpost << see also
06:44 thehorrors yeah, I've seen that. I didn't realize it all went to feudalism at some point though. The declaration itself didn't not hint at that
06:45 thehorrors so where did you come in, signpost?
06:47 signpost << here
06:47 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-10-16 mircea_popescu: !up undata
06:50 thehorrors eight years, huh
06:51 thehorrors you seem to be critical of MP. And you implemented WoT, didn't you?
06:52 signpost << actually this preceded, apparently
06:52 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-06-16 trinque: I can take it
06:52 signpost thehorrors: I implemented maybe the 3rd or 4th iteration
06:52 thehorrors who did the first one?
06:53 signpost first one would've been the old bitcoin-otc WoT, I believe.
06:53 signpost
06:53 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-31 12:27:39 punkman: <punkman> at some point there was an incident with bitcoin-otc bot, and then the WoT split, and a new separate WoT was created, administered by kakobrekla/assbot
06:54 signpost that whole punkman thread has a bunch of major events
06:58 thehorrors But WoT is centralized, isn't it?
06:59 signpost << I agree that decentralizing it is important.
06:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-18 17:06:32 signpost: wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
07:00 thehorrors Is anyone building it? I want to build it
07:01 signpost would be a mighty fine thing to build atop pest.
07:01 signpost say as an extension of thimbronion's blatta
07:02 thehorrors I didn't read the spec yet, but isn't pest a p2p communication protocol? How would it support decentralized WoT persistence? In my view it should be something like a blockchain
07:02 thehorrors I don't understand blatta yet either - didn't look at it
07:03 thehorrors is asciilifeform building pest? Is it in Ada?
07:03 signpost it would support decentralized wot gossip. what the messages for wot updates look like, how they are stored, is not defined.
07:04 signpost I'm skeptical you need an entire blockchain for this, since there's not much of a double-spend problem with statements about reputation.
07:05 signpost (but it may entertain you to know that I wrote the wot for ethereum)
07:05 signpost haven't released or anything.
07:06 thehorrors it does entertain me, thank you
07:06 signpost lol
07:07 thehorrors the decentralized WoT will need more deliberation. It all depends on how people view it and want to use it. In my view a "global", visible wot would be best
07:07 signpost I figure all pest-wot needs is a rule like "I believe the worst rating I receive with the most recent bitcoin block hash"
07:07 thehorrors therefore, a "public ledger of trust"
07:08 signpost and if I routinely had somebody in my wot emitting spam ratings with the same hash, I'd just negrate them.
07:08 signpost eh, trust is not global.
07:08 signpost that's entirely the wrong way to think about it, and leads directly to chinese social credit.
07:09 thehorrors well then there is not much value in decentralizing it - everyone will just have their own little wot
07:09 signpost one can only have trust along the specific paths across the social graph from me to you.
07:09 signpost you're misunderstanding. global state yes, but what that state means *to you* is necessarily different than to me.
07:09 thehorrors oh, sure
07:10 signpost there's no such thing as "my score in the wot"
07:10 thehorrors no, I agree
07:10 signpost there's just "across these relationships I have these paths of transitive trust to thehorrors"
07:10 thehorrors I mean more like "publicly visible"
07:10 signpost yeah 100% agree with that
07:10 signpost "res publica"
07:11 thehorrors right, because I want to see if you trust that guy and that guy trusts the guy I trust etc
07:11 signpost yup yup
07:11 thehorrors ok
07:11 thehorrors yeah, the scores are individual, just the way it is now
07:11 thehorrors it's the decentralized storage I think is all that is needed pretty much
07:14 signpost << worthwhile thread too, if I got the right one
07:14 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-01-26 mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here is that there's no way to reason in the manner you expect to reason. IF anything about the wot process is opposable to anyone involved ; then the wot process becomes by that measure less useful. no change whatsoever appears in the swamp it's made to confront.
07:15 signpost mp raised the objection to signing ratings that the ratings become sworn statements opposable to the rater.
07:16 signpost meaning legally, traditionally, and practically today before the megastate.
07:18 signpost I think it's still worth discussing, because how the fuck do I trust that the relationship described by the rating actually exists without the signature in a decentralized setting with no elected trusted observer (e.g. deedbot, which verified the rater without sharing that verification with others)
07:19 thehorrors I had a blasphemous idea about that
07:20 verisimilitude I'm, slowly.
07:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:01:52 thehorrors: is asciilifeform building pest? Is it in Ada?
07:20 thehorrors Still not sure if it is any good.
07:22 thehorrors you can assign public keys (and therefore trust) to systems, they don't have to be people.
07:23 signpost how do you prevent your trusted system from becoming a dumping ground for people who aren't themselves held to account for what they did to it?
07:24 thehorrors that's one of the questions, yes
07:24 signpost imho this is why asciilifeform introduced V, to solve that problem
07:24 thehorrors verisimilitude, I'll check your blog, you got patches?
07:25 verisimilitude No, but I've source code.
07:25 verisimilitude I'm building all components first.
07:25 verisimilitude Nothing specific to Pest is yet present.
07:26 thehorrors signpost, how do you see V solving that problem?
07:26 thehorrors verisimilitude, what are you writing it in?
07:27 verisimilitude I'll be writing it in Ada.
07:27 signpost because there is no centralized authority on what authors I accept in my local V.
07:28 thehorrors signpost, not sure I understand you. Suppose I want to rate you as X
07:28 signpost I have a wot directory containing some public keys, and the tool assembles a source code state using that and the patches/sigs I have
07:28 signpost I am addressing the idea of having systems hold a key, but perhaps you should explain what you hoped to solve with that idea.
07:29 thehorrors I tell everyone "I am rating signpost as X" and I sign it. Everyone can verify that I signed it, so the relationship does exist, no?
07:29 signpost yup
07:29 thehorrors so what's the problem?
07:29 thehorrors Noone can do this for me (fake my rating)
07:29 signpost the problem is the gpg-contracts interpretation of signing
07:30 signpost you're swearing to the veracity of the rating, such that it can hypothetically stand on its own legally, rather than act as a pointer which causes me to ask you personally if I should go do business with the person you rated.
07:30 signpost the idea was to augment the human relationship, not replace it.
07:31 signpost this might be a pointless religious notion standing in the way of something useful. I'm just saying what the past context was.
07:32 signpost I've loosened up on my own interpretation of signing, having signed entire linux kernels/gccs/etc for pentacle
07:32 signpost and holy shit, I never realized the lovecraftian terror of c standard headers before this project, not like this.
07:33 thehorrors ok, well but then we can do without wot altogether to be honest. As long as everyone knows each other's keys, we can ask each other questions about the keys and be done with it.
07:33 signpost asciilifeform once took a crack at enumerated meaning of signatures.
07:33 signpost nah, I think computable trust is entirely valuable. think what it means at the level of packet routing, say.
07:34 signpost suppose I lose my connection to asciilifeform, but I need to tell him something direly. it'd be nice if my machine had some sense of where to send that message, such that it will eventually reach him.
07:34 thehorrors what is pentacle? is that a distro I am getting a sense?
07:35 thehorrors For that you would have a server you trust, maybe?
07:35 signpost
07:35 signpost yes, pentacle's a distro I'm working on; nope, it won't have anything but signed vpatches, and nobody's system will be identical, nor will it rely on somebody's "repo" of packages
07:36 thehorrors how is it different from billymg's gentoo?
07:37 signpost lifted a lot of inspiration from gentoo; I used it for many years, am on a gentoo machine right now.
07:38 signpost where it differs is in beingg built to use V for src.
07:39 thehorrors ah
07:39 signpost *being
07:41 signpost gentoo has also succumbed to significant complexity and interdependency creep. asciilifeform's frozen gentoo is great, but still requires a lot of work to cut back the dependency hell.
07:41 signpost ends up being a littany of USE="-oh -no -you -fucking -dont"
07:42 * signpost built pentacle outwards from what'd build the compiler itself, then "ok, now I need a kernel/init/text-editor"
07:44 thehorrors have you looked into bsds?
07:45 signpost sure, I ran openbsd for a long time
07:45 signpost deedbot's server is openbsd
07:45 signpost << current pentacle kit
07:45 verisimilitude I checked recently, and ``litany'' has but one letter t, signpost.
07:46 signpost hm, ty
07:46 verisimilitude It's no issue.
07:46 verisimilitude I'd also thought it had two.
07:47 thehorrors why not make a bsd distro instead of linux?
07:48 signpost familiarity, probably. I don't think anybody'd object to someone making a set of BSD vpatches.
07:49 thehorrors That's another project I will be thinking about.
07:51 signpost I have a few state-management ideas I'm working on atop pentacle which involve squashfs and overlayfs, descendent of the way I used to do embedded linux for another project.
07:51 signpost working on a formalized notion of a "job" which I can huck easily at a server running this system, and have it fire up and receive command/control via pest.
07:52 signpost "job" here is basically a special signed-and-encrypted filesystem image.
07:54 thehorrors well, here is where I disagree with heterogeneous systems. If you have identical systems, would you need such jobs?
07:54 thehorrors it's a cool idea, don't get me wrong
07:54 signpost you just buzz-worded at me, unpack the macros
07:55 thehorrors well you said that no one's system will be identical, right?
07:55 signpost my servers will certainly be identical.
07:55 signpost yours will not be identical to mine, necessarily.
07:56 thehorrors ok. Your concept of a job seems like a container, no?
07:56 thehorrors why else would you need to exchange file systems instead of just saying "do this on this data"?
07:57 signpost wtf does "do this on this data" mean aside "here's a binary, run and give it this input" ?
07:58 thehorrors right
07:58 signpost restate your question?
07:58 thehorrors so why do you want jobs that entail exchanging file systems?
07:59 signpost restate it again lol
07:59 signpost at some point, you have a wad of program and data you want on some box
07:59 signpost I am not spending the rest of my life polishing bespoke boxes by hand.
07:59 thehorrors
07:59 bitbot Logged on 2022-05-05 07:52:55 signpost: "job" here is basically a special signed-and-encrypted filesystem image.
07:59 signpost the things are getting a kernel installed on them and becoming part of a compute fabric I own.
08:00 signpost and I'm not using fucking kubernetes to do that.
08:00 thehorrors all I am trying to figure out is why do you want such "jobs" as you define them
08:01 signpost explain what "heterogeneous systems" are to you, and why you disagree with them
08:02 thehorrors "I have a different version of everything", practically meaning "you cannot assume what version of binaries etc I have (or a server has)"
08:02 signpost you're misunderstanding.
08:04 signpost when I say pentacle uses V as a fundamental principle, I mean that it's a machine into which *you* can load different vpatches than *me*.
08:04 thehorrors right
08:04 signpost thus we might mean very different things when we say we both run "pentacle"
08:06 signpost when I'm discussing what I want to do with my servers, that assumes a uniform node substrate I build (and probably call a distinct piece of software from pentacle) which allows me to declaratively load jobs on any of the machines in my fleet.
08:06 thehorrors okay. And all the servers you control will have the same vpatches.
08:06 thehorrors yep
08:07 thehorrors the only detail here I want to clarify is the jobs themselves
08:07 signpost the bitcoind job might have a statically linked bitcoind in it, and a script that fires it up.
08:07 signpost maybe a ML job has a python and pytorch in it.
08:08 thehorrors so my question was "why do you want to package jobs as filesystems"
08:08 signpost programs are files in *nix
08:08 signpost what's the alternative?
08:09 thehorrors send a server a binary and data, an arhive, basically
08:09 thehorrors why bother with a filesystem?
08:10 signpost you're just giving an alternative without the merits of the alternative, but I'm happy to explain why I like this approach better.
08:10 signpost but I'm running out of steam, so after this gonna hit the hay
08:11 thehorrors that's all I was asking for. That's okay, we both might be getting a bit tired. GN, signpost, good talking to you
08:11 signpost an archive is just a shitty filesystem image which you have to unpack somewhere, take up even more disk space with that.
08:11 signpost then when you read it, it'll end up in the linux fs cache anyway in RAM
08:12 signpost seems like mounting a squashfs is less duplicative.
08:12 thehorrors I see, it has merit
08:13 signpost then the use of overlayfs is for composition. two jobs might both want busybox's utils around for shell.
08:15 signpost can have one busybox.squashfs, and union-mount w/e's different atop.
08:19 thehorrors that explains it, thank you
08:21 * signpost quite open to better ways, so long as same-or-better management of the linux system-state shitwad.
08:22 signpost alrighty, gnite.
08:22 thehorrors gnit, signpost, thanks!
~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~
09:27 crtdaydreams << >>
09:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:26:06 signpost: because there is no centralized authority on what authors I accept in my local V.
09:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-21 20:44:32 asciilifeform: if a hero arises who comes up with an algo for forcing handles on a multi-level pestnet to actually stay unique -- let's all take off hats & use it
09:30 crtdaydreams I've been thinking about this. What signpost mentions is a very similar problem regarding a decentralized WoT without an agent to say "this key belongs to xyz" and verify that.
09:31 crtdaydreams 2 Solutions, one more novel than the other.
09:34 crtdaydreams Firstly, it's important to make a distinction between a username and nick. Think in terms of IRC usernames e.g. cdd@, but my nick is crtdaydreams
09:34 crtdaydreams username is a network identifier, a nick is just a handle
09:46 crtdaydreams 1) Arguably less sophisticated solution, but werks. All peers are identified by their fingerprint and the entire notion of handles is purely client-side. When peering the peer will submit a handle, if the handle is already taken within your network the peers handle will default to "handle_fingerprint", from the client side you can then change the client-side handle of that
09:46 crtdaydreams peer. If the /nick command is used by a peer in a chan, the same principle applies.
09:52 crtdaydreams 2) Employs the use of a wot in which several peers can sign to say that "x key belongs to y handle" which can be automated. A simple "majority rules" would determine whether or not that peer can lay claim to that nick.
09:53 crtdaydreams ^ would revert to above to resolve a name conflict wherein all partys hold the same trust for that nick
09:56 crtdaydreams Now that I mention it, it feels too trivial, like I'm missing something. If tis' been thought of and rejected would like a link in logz.
~ 3 hours 57 minutes ~
13:54 asciilifeform << think about it for a minute. it doesn't matter what kind of string is used 'in place of handle', a l2 or more distant station can still collide (deliberately or otherwise) and you have precisely same problem as when using handles strictly
13:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 05:45:14 crtdaydreams: 1) Arguably less sophisticated solution, but werks. All peers are identified by their fingerprint and the entire notion of handles is purely client-side. When peering the peer will submit a handle, if the handle is already taken within your network the peers handle will default to "handle_fingerprint", from the client side you can then change the client-side handle of that
13:56 asciilifeform << there is no public key crypto in pest. pest keys are secret keys (i.e. known strictly to a given pair of peers), your statement makes 0 sense in context of pest
13:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 05:51:21 crtdaydreams: 2) Employs the use of a wot in which several peers can sign to say that "x key belongs to y handle" which can be automated. A simple "majority rules" would determine whether or not that peer can lay claim to that nick.
13:57 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: plz read the spec.
13:58 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: ... and the various threads re why no rsa in pest.
13:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-24 11:58:52 asciilifeform: thimbronion: recall the orig. reason why pest is using symmetric crypto, btw
14:02 asciilifeform << that's what even ~means~ to decentralize -- yes, 'everyone will have own little wot', which is exactly as it should be. there is no actual reason why wot needs 'universally agreed global state' at all.
14:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:07:30 thehorrors: well then there is not much value in decentralizing it - everyone will just have their own little wot
14:03 asciilifeform observe that nuffin stops you from propagating the particular ratings you can see from your l1 to l2+ on request.
14:03 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-25 20:03:40 asciilifeform: (nuffin stops a peer from later adding the warez to his own share and then pass to ~his~ l1. is the logical way to propagate it.)
14:05 asciilifeform << and what happens when someone walks off with (or via other means lifts the key from) the box ? or finds a way to get it to sign $arbitrary turd.
14:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:20:45 thehorrors: you can assign public keys (and therefore trust) to systems, they don't have to be people.
14:06 asciilifeform mechanically-firing pubkey signers are a braindamaged concept.
14:06 asciilifeform ( and walks straight into 'dao'-style lulz )
14:12 asciilifeform << a decentralized wot is precisely a means for 'asking questions about keys' in such a way that one can post, for one's l1, the answers at a given time.
14:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:31:26 thehorrors: ok, well but then we can do without wot altogether to be honest. As long as everyone knows each other's keys, we can ask each other questions about the keys and be done with it.
14:15 asciilifeform this is the correct way to implement a wot, such that it doesn't reduce to 'some d00d's www' which lives & dies with him; or to the ancient meatspace snail grind where you gotta write to yer l1, and ask'em to write to ~theirs~, and wait months/years for a complete picture
14:16 asciilifeform it requires, yes, a usable secure p2p comms protocol, to implement. which at last exists.
14:17 asciilifeform ( and in which, observe, the 'root of trust' is still manually-operated rsa signatures . as it oughta be. )
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
15:39 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: see also e.g. this thrd re the essence of the problem of unique handles
15:39 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-19 22:02:03 asciilifeform: chains to begin with were asciilifeform's notion of how to give ~some~ measure of authenticity for l2+ hearsays
15:41 asciilifeform asciilifeform's current notion for a pill ftr.
15:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 18:48:29 asciilifeform: thimbronion: current notion, summarized: we bite off 64byte from payload, and get 2 new fields, call'em 'unlock' and 'lock'. lock == h256(errything else in msg, incl. 'unlock', and unrevealed 32byte turd 'S'.); unlock = 'S' from yer previous msg.
15:43 asciilifeform ^ ugly but asciilifeform suspects it is closest thing physically possible to a solution
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
16:44 verisimilitude I suppose that would make the linked-list a doubly-linked-list, yes.
16:50 asciilifeform verisimilitude: not precisely (in principle someone can forge a forward linkage once he has an old 'S'; however the forged chain is then ~distinguishable~, which is the point
16:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-26 12:23:03 asciilifeform: and of course dr.evil can still forge msgs in transit, so long as 1) he remembers, for all time, to withhold all further upstream ones 2) he is willing to be that his upstream victim has no other paths to the downstream dupes
16:50 asciilifeform )
16:54 verisimilitude Yes, but forgery is already trivial, right?
16:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: aha
16:55 asciilifeform aim there is to make all l2+ speakers ~distinguishable~
16:55 verisimilitude If a packet drops correctly, someone can already impersonate others.
16:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: nobody can impersonate an l1 station (unless its key compromised)
16:55 asciilifeform the issue is w/ l2+
16:56 verisimilitude The L1 refers to those stations with registered keys, right?
16:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: refers to a given station's direct peers
16:56 verisimilitude So yes.
16:56 verisimilitude Okay; a packet gets dropped, but I get the copies; impersonation can happen here.
16:57 asciilifeform aint clear what dropped packets have to do with it. atm anyone can emit anyffin at all marked as 'rebroadcast'
16:58 verisimilitude I'll write more about Pest when I'll be closer to finishing my client.
16:58 asciilifeform verisimilitude: didja read the spec ?
16:59 verisimilitude Yes.
16:59 asciilifeform aite
16:59 asciilifeform wb phf
17:03 phf was going to opine on wot, but actually gtg
17:03 asciilifeform a ok
17:04 verisimilitude wtf wgl lol brb
17:07 asciilifeform eh it aint as if there's some kinda hurry. let fella fix his tractor, feed horse, etc lol
17:07 verisimilitude idk wym ymmv
17:20 * signpost holds power button on verisimilitude down for 5sec.
17:21 asciilifeform lol
17:21 * asciilifeform installed an old-fashioned 'knife switch' mains switch yest., makes very satisfying 'thunk'
17:24 verisimilitude Abbreviations being used so much is bothersome.
17:26 verisimilitude Anyway, I repeatedly fail my self-imposed deadlines; my new goal for finishing a tiny little language service is within this month.
17:28 verisimilitude I don't even like toki pona, but I'm nowhere near being able to write a Whitaker's Words program for Latin yet.
17:30 verisimilitude I don't know how to write a CGI program, but there's a solution to that: I'm just going to expand the table to its passive form and add some URL rewriting rules to the Apache configuration. Even for Latin, it shouldn't be larger than one hundred mebibytes.
~ 23 minutes ~
17:54 asciilifeform ugh
18:02 shinohai jfc killfiles can't happen soon enough.
18:02 shinohai $vwap
18:02 busybot The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 39137.50 USD
18:10 verisimilitude I'm that bad, am I?
~ 2 hours 22 minutes ~
20:33 mats yes
20:34 asciilifeform lol
20:34 asciilifeform wb mats
~ 47 minutes ~
21:21 verisimilitude I just wanted to nudge the topic back to programming.
21:22 verisimilitude Does anyone care to discuss tries, then, or something else?
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
22:28 phf << it was the second, feed horse
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 13:05:32 asciilifeform: eh it aint as if there's some kinda hurry. let fella fix his tractor, feed horse, etc lol
22:40 signpost dang, my mother just died of a heart attack.
22:41 signpost pretty surprising, not much led up to it.
22:46 phf signpost: please accept my condolences
22:47 signpost thank you phf.
22:51 shinohai Damn signpost my condolences as well. :/
22:53 signpost shinohai: thanks bud
22:58 thimbronion I am so sorry signpost.
~ 23 minutes ~
23:21 billymg very sorry to hear that signpost, my condolences
23:25 verisimilitude That's unfortunate to read, signpost.
23:37 scoopbot New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: A Trivial Trie in Ada
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