Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-05-08 | 2022-05-10 →
00:45 vex what an elegant example of a starndard it is too
00:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-05 03:31:38 signpost: asciilifeform once took a crack at enumerated meaning of signatures.
~ 25 minutes ~
01:10 asciilifeform << and when >1 valid path ?
01:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-08 12:41:17 thimbronion: Why not allow "locking" of selected l2+ handles to a set of peers? If a message from a locked handle does NOT come through ALL peers to which locked with n bounces, annotate. Thus if alice and bob both have a mallory and mallory locally is locked at 1 bounce to bob, mallory with for example 1 bounce via alice ONLY will be annotated. This would of course be a heurstic and not
01:19 thimbronion asciilifeform: hm, example?
~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
02:26 vex while you ponder that thimbronion, I'll suggest to verisimilitude to make his own desk
02:32 vex i suggest a box style frame made of rhs, with some nice timber atop
02:33 vex when the fbi comes, they'll wonder how you got it in the door
02:42 vex it doesn't matter how much your dog costs, they can shoot it. they can't cut your desk up
02:43 vex although, rules change
02:44 vex being rich and russian and nautical is now a crime
02:49 vex stupid pricks should be sailing
02:52 vex if you need 20 tonne of diesel every week, it's not working
02:54 vex I know where i'd be if I was suddenly persona non gratis
03:00 vex not really, but I hope I'd be able to work it out in time
03:01 vex mebbe to NH, working for signpost
03:07 vex stay awake all night blasting potential intruders
03:08 vex I'm actually pretty good creeping in the dark; my eyesight isn't that great in the daytime
03:11 vex i'd be pissed and snoring waiting for predator tho
03:12 vex i need a horse and a dog and a cat and a galah
03:15 vex whosmsovever worries about heir ocr shouldn't
03:17 vex
03:24 vex thimbronion, I like to transpose alice & bob for names I know
03:24 vex cycle until it makes sense
03:27 vex soon enough you run oughtta names, alice and robert come around
03:28 vex
03:33 asciilifeform << e.g. this net. say you're station '0'.
03:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-08 21:18:04 thimbronion: asciilifeform: hm, example?
03:33 vex when GL never came home from mexico
03:34 vex here we go
03:34 asciilifeform thimbronion: path of msg from '4' to '0' will vary depending on which links are alive
03:35 asciilifeform ( www tool randomly picked for generating these ftr )
03:37 asciilifeform can prolly come up with better example, but this one imho suffices
03:37 thimbronion asciilifeform: not seeing a 4
03:38 asciilifeform waiwat
03:38 asciilifeform purple
03:38 thimbronion 2 -> green, 0 is blue, 1 is orange. No purple that I can see.
03:38 vex
03:39 asciilifeform thimbronion: yer on a cga monitor or wat. it's right there in the screenshit.
03:39 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-08 23:32:05 asciilifeform: << e.g. this net. say you're station '0'.
03:40 thimbronion lolno
03:40 thimbronion I wish
03:41 vex fwiw monkey isalnd is coming
03:41 asciilifeform thimbronion: are you looking at the png or the 'tool' link ?
03:41 thimbronion png worx
03:42 asciilifeform that's the correct link
03:42 vex 2022 scumm
03:42 asciilifeform thimbronion:
03:46 asciilifeform thimbronion: << better example. you're '0' and station in question is '5'. path to you from the latter can be 5->4->1->0, 5->3->2->0, 5->2->1->0, even if 4,3,2 are all alive, randomly
03:53 thimbronion If 0 locked 5 to 1 at 2 bounces, I don't see how an annotation could result in multipath.png.
04:00 thimbronion However, if 1 were connected to another net that had a 5 through one intermediary, THAT would not be annotated, which is bad.
~ 27 minutes ~
04:27 asciilifeform thimbronion: say, is so 'locked', and then 5 peers with 1. nao you have 5->1->0, through no fault of yer own, and this invalidates your 'lock'
04:28 asciilifeform you update it, and next week their link breaks (temporarily or otherwise), thenwat
04:29 asciilifeform point asciilifeform was trying to make is that paths through the net aint in any sense permanent, or reliably knowable (beyond l1), or all that meaningful arguably
04:30 asciilifeform e.g. in multipath.png 1 is equally likely to see 5's msg through 4, 2, or 2, in any given instance, depending on who is alive
04:31 asciilifeform he might also see it from e.g. 0 if the latter links up with 5 at whatever point
04:32 asciilifeform likewise, a hypothetical impostor-5 who's connected via 4,3,2 will not be distinguishable from genuine-5
04:32 asciilifeform (without some other mechanism)
04:34 asciilifeform ( recall that the 'complete path' is not available to anyone, all a station can see is via which l1 a msg arrives )
04:35 asciilifeform that is, this is the only hard prior; any other info is 'promisetronic'
04:37 * asciilifeform bbl
04:42 vex smartarse
~ 8 hours 59 minutes ~
13:41 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
13:41 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $33345.54
13:41 asciilifeform cheapcoinz!!1
~ 40 minutes ~
14:22 thimbronion << specified algo only allows locking to l1 peers and also is a heuristic, as stated. Empirically people don't update their graph all that much.
14:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 00:27:34 asciilifeform: point asciilifeform was trying to make is that paths through the net aint in any sense permanent, or reliably knowable (beyond l1), or all that meaningful arguably
14:34 asciilifeform thimbronion: atm nobody has much in the way of an l2+
14:34 asciilifeform so imho early to speak of 'empirically'
14:36 asciilifeform thimbronion: gotta admit, asciilifeform still not sees what 'locking to l1' gets you there
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
16:05 thimbronion << it gets you "Thus if alice and bob both have a mallory and mallory locally is locked at 1 bounce to bob, mallory with for example 1 bounce via alice ONLY will be annotated." Can argue whether or not that is a valuable heuristic, but can't say "locking to l1" doesn't get you anything -- at least so far.
16:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 10:35:17 asciilifeform: thimbronion: gotta admit, asciilifeform still not sees what 'locking to l1' gets you there
16:07 thimbronion Lets say pest as implemented was much larger and there were some dupe handles in the net - one approach you could take would be to get the dupes in your L1 if you cared about what they had to say, or get someone connected to the dupe in your L1.
~ 53 minutes ~
17:00 thimbronion Also, aside from namespaces, what are the politics of merging two large nets? How do you decide to peer your existing net to another vs. spin up a new station to join another net? Presumable if you want to join a high value net organized around a different subject you spin up a new station rather than bring in a large wholly unrelated net and end up getting blocked.
17:02 asciilifeform thimbronion: imho this kinda thing will have to be fleshed out in the field, when actually happens
17:04 thimbronion $ticker btc usd
17:04 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $31611.87
17:05 thimbronion whew boy here we go
17:06 asciilifeform maybe at last the great cleansing of the scum
17:06 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
17:07 signpost 80% drawdown from peak is approx 13k
17:07 signpost if this happens, fuck it, I'm still young. I'm throwing the rest of my idle net worth in.
17:10 asciilifeform the banishment of 'institutional' scum from btcism can't happen soon enuff.
17:10 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-29 22:17:22 asciilifeform: usg's entire anti-btc strategy currently seems to reduce to 'turn it into speculative hell', lest it become the obvious go-to inflation shelter
17:11 signpost so far just looks like normal halving cycle dynamics.
17:11 asciilifeform signpost: next halving is at 840k neh
17:12 signpost yeah, approx may 2024
17:12 asciilifeform i.e. ~2y from nao
17:12 asciilifeform aha
17:12 asciilifeform this wk's dip has 0 to do w/ halving afaik. but rather with the sinking of reich paperola (reich interest rate increase)
17:13 signpost not proposing a single cause; if interest rate hell exacerbates the post-lemming correction, hot damn, I say.
17:15 asciilifeform reich succeeded in jacking up btc-usd rate by flooding goxmarket w/ papercoin; after which exchrate stiffly correlated with all other reich paper.
17:17 thimbronion Indeed in other crashes there was somewhere else to go besides dollars.
17:17 signpost sure, BTC has been hilariously pegged to nasdaq for quite a while
17:17 asciilifeform ( secondary aim of this effort was to help keep coin outta human hands and in lizard chests )
17:17 signpost in any case, buying opportunity, just like after 2013, 2017
17:18 signpost then supply of the real thing will clamp further.
17:18 thimbronion Now after everyone buys a bunch of dollars: "gee thanks gonna tell my frens then print like hell"
17:22 asciilifeform signpost: the interesting thing is that 'supply of the real thing' aint afaik detectably relevant to the exchrate. as with e.g. gold.
17:24 signpost we got a pretty strong parabolic run after every halving.
17:24 signpost but I could be wrong, and can always go back to making webshits.
17:24 signpost or potatoes!
17:25 signpost could very well be that these were only possible in the easy liquidity regime that is supposedly ending.
17:32 signpost << saylor's first margin call is at $21k apparently, lol
17:39 billymg will be interesting to see if they manage to crash the stock market while keeping rent, groceries, and other essentials inflated
17:41 signpost iirc jpow recently mentioned that they didn't have "tools" for managing supply, just demand.
17:41 signpost entirely possible they crush what paper-wealth was had, while food etc continues skyward
17:41 billymg of the dollar? or the other side?
17:41 signpost supply of goods, yeah
17:43 billymg yeah, i have a feeling cost of living ain't coming back down
17:43 asciilifeform billymg: it's a ratchet, in reich has only ever went up
17:44 billymg i'm amused at the thought of NFLX comp reviews though "sorry, no budget for raises this year" "but my rent just went up 30%!!"
17:45 shinohai "What food shortages? Just look at all these tasty bugs!"
17:48 billymg i know this is a meme chart but it still feels like the most likely trajectory for btc
17:49 billymg i also don't think the dollar is making a comeback after the civil asset forfeitured russia, even if they stop printing
17:49 billymg they*
17:49 signpost which doesn't really tell you how much gold for a loaf of bread.
17:49 asciilifeform billymg: tbf the paper-gold market not existed then
17:49 asciilifeform ( weimar period )
17:50 * signpost figures also a world war ahead yet. whatever wins will decide what the bread-to-btc ratio shall be.
17:50 signpost I'm accumulating btc because there isn't another instrument in which to preserve *any* wealth, rather than gainz!1!!
17:50 asciilifeform ^
17:51 asciilifeform tho there's also the obvious 'pile up physical usefuls'
17:51 signpost mmmhm
17:52 * signpost just bought a mighty nice rifle and a shitload of ammocoin
17:53 asciilifeform not only 'sexy' rifles, ammo, but e.g. spare parts. e.g. asciilifeform's new pad coming to resemble soviet sub, where 3-4 spares for errything
17:54 signpost sure, tools, consumables, gas storage, etc
17:55 * signpost and wife will also be doing some traveling this year to determine whether/where to gtfo.
17:57 * billymg would be happy to show signpost around here if he decides to add it to his short list
17:58 signpost will definitely give you a shout anytime we visit CR in the future.
18:01 billymg the pantsuit press calls the new president "trump-like" and "populist" and "blah blah blah women are wary blah blah"
18:02 thimbronion billymg: good news about the masks
18:02 billymg thimbronion: yeah, finally
18:02 asciilifeform 'putin cured covid'(tm)(r)(meme)
18:03 billymg i'm trying to find a chart of real estate priced in btc, but best i could do was a % scaled overlay with the two (in tradingview)
18:05 billymg (which shows btc still doing its job quite well, even if only measured from 2017 to now)
18:05 verisimilitude I should probably consider spending what remains of my savings before they become entirely worthless.
18:05 verisimilitude I'm glad to have never considered the pursuit of money for its sake to be worthwhile.
18:14 signpost certainly not, just a useful tool.
18:15 verisimilitude I'd sooner call it evil than useful.
18:26 signpost this is lazy without an alternative algorithm for organizing planet-scale human activity that isn't "uh, the smart people tell everyone what to be doing"
18:28 verisimilitude The idea that money is ``for organizing planet-scale human activity'' is part of the evil.
18:29 signpost yes, you have to supply another mechanism before you get to say "not that way"
18:30 verisimilitude Violence is a more honest way, and prevents old and worthless vermin from seizing control in the same way.
18:31 verisimilitude Say, signpost, does money work on controlling North Korea?
18:32 verisimilitude There's a reason Israel and the US think the ``World Bank'' or whatever should control that country rather than its true rulers.
18:32 signpost I don't see that money and violence are alternatives for one another.
18:32 signpost often enough what constitutes money is imposed by violence.
18:32 verisimilitude Sure, I agree.
18:33 verisimilitude Violence requires more physical presence than money, however.
~ 20 minutes ~
18:53 signpost isn't even that I love money. it's that all centrally-planned economics to date have failed with successively larger craters left behind.
18:53 signpost *economies
18:54 signpost important to admit that bitcoin is only hypothetically decentralized. hypothesis being tested currently.
19:01 verisimilitude There's reason to believe the USSR could've succeeded with modern computing power.
19:06 verisimilitude Capitalism has given us the broken world of the present, signpost.
19:15 mats microstrategy looking real good
19:23 verisimilitude It's interesting to notice for what purpose an element of an interface exists, recognizing an edge case, only to test it and notice it doesn't handle it at all and is simply broken.
19:30 signpost yep, I won't defend modern fiat-banking capitalism.
19:30 signpost nor am I qualified to propose an alternative.
~ 2 hours 5 minutes ~
21:36 asciilifeform << succeeded just fine. on 9 may 1945, when handed 'civilized world' its arse on a platter. but in '53, circle of mediocrities poisoned the king, and started 4 decades of comprador decline.
21:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 15:00:00 verisimilitude: There's reason to believe the USSR could've succeeded with modern computing power.
21:37 asciilifeform mats: wtf is a 'microstrategy' ?
21:40 asciilifeform << all, without exception, industrial economies -- centrally planned. for 100+y nao.
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 14:51:57 signpost: isn't even that I love money. it's that all centrally-planned economics to date have failed with successively larger craters left behind.
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-13 15:30:15 asciilifeform: really is an effect of industrialization, which is centralizing; result can be stalin, hitler, or fdr-flavoured, but otherwise very similar, there is no such thing as 'multiple elites' in a civilization in long term
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-17 12:16:58 asciilifeform: billymg: reichs recur historically with regularity, and the moar centralizing the tech stack at the time, the bigger the reich -- and its eventual crater. imho entirely defensible statement of fact.
21:40 asciilifeform (see also.)
21:43 asciilifeform << may encourage verisimilitude to realize that it aint in fact run 'with money'. oligarchs aint oligarchs 'because have money', they are simply deputies of the reich (typically, tho not always, 'titled nobility') to whom freshly-printed dough is simply issued
21:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 14:26:25 verisimilitude: The idea that money is ``for organizing planet-scale human activity'' is part of the evil.
21:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-11 14:33:08 asciilifeform: fwiw in asciilifeform's cosmography, a sublizard is a 'human' who directly executes orders from lizard, while exposed to 'humans' in daily context
21:45 asciilifeform ( unauthorized, i.e. plebe, who 'suddenly' comes across a serious pile of dough -- virtually immediately 'has problems' and separated from it )
21:45 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-17 18:29:20 asciilifeform: billymg: i disagree that it's a numeric problem, even necessarily. say, martians land, and leave you 25 tonnes of refined pu as a parting gift. you will 'pass into elite' ? or perhaps not ? what do you suppose would happen ?
21:45 signpost yes, I was commenting on the idea of a command economy which does not use money to facilitate.
21:46 asciilifeform fwiw even sovok economy 'used money to facilitate'
21:46 signpost yup
21:53 thimbronion asciilifeform:
22:02 verisimilitude I know the money is truly worthless, but the claim is otherwise. Most evil in the world can be traced to religions and primitive instinct.
22:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-09 17:41:56 asciilifeform: << may encourage verisimilitude to realize that it aint in fact run 'with money'. oligarchs aint oligarchs 'because have money', they are simply deputies of the reich (typically, tho not always, 'titled nobility') to whom freshly-printed dough is simply issued
22:03 thimbronion verisimilitude: afaict there isn't any notion of good or evil *outside of* religion
22:03 verisimilitude Mammon exists, regardless.
22:04 verisimilitude I usually see that from the religious, thimbronion.
22:04 verisimilitude I disagree.
22:04 thimbronion verisimilitude: or anyone that has stuidied philosophy
22:05 verisimilitude Everyone cunning wants a monopoly on something, such as morality.
22:06 signpost verisimilitude: define evil.
22:08 verisimilitude Evil is opposed to good.
22:11 signpost I do not have infinite patience for persuading you to communicate sanely.
22:12 verisimilitude Defining good is more difficult.
22:12 verisimilitude I know it when I see it, signpost.
22:12 verisimilitude What answer should I give?
22:13 signpost one contextualized sufficiently that I don't have to ask for each individual piece of the world-model that emitted it.
22:13 shinohai Mammon exists but we just get un mamón instead.
22:14 verisimilitude Mutilating children is evil; destroying valuable work is evil; wasting time on games such as making money is evil; stupidity is evil.
22:16 verisimilitude By ``wasting time on games such as making money'', I refer to banking and the like, not normal work.
22:16 shinohai Valuable work is subjective though. I'm sure covertress thought "kryptoncoin" was valuable before I rekt it.
22:16 signpost I see the finite span of one's time running through all these.
22:16 verisimilitude Killing isn't evil, especially when killing evil.
22:18 signpost if the child didn't lose something irreparably by being mutilated, whatever evil is, it would be less so if this were the case, eh?
22:18 signpost so finiteness and also irreversibility of time.
22:19 verisimilitude Sure; we live in an evil reality.
22:24 signpost the bare assertion of "evil" is likely to bounce of others, given it most likely indicates "submit to me" and zilch else.
22:25 signpost reality being evil makes no sense, as your "evil" depends on the definition of "good".
22:26 signpost where's the good go if reality is evil?
~ 17 minutes ~
22:43 verisimilitude I don't know.
22:46 verisimilitude Perhaps good is only in the minds of some men.
22:50 signpost good and evil itself is definitely only in the minds of men, which doesn't diminish it.
22:50 signpost makes plenty of sense to standardize the ways in which we reason about what actions we'll take.
22:51 signpost or how the hell to coordinate? and if we'll not coordinate, what reason to have language?
22:52 signpost one might find things which strengthen that process of coordination in line with historic concepts of good, and those which destroy it evil.
22:53 * signpost operates from the notion that the web-of-trust wasn't recently invented, is intrinsic to human behavior.
22:53 signpost it's one of the algorithms that drive that coordination.
22:54 verisimilitude I can agree.
22:55 signpost why continue to coordinate, and not die instead? I'm fine with saying that it's because I don't know what the hell the answer to that question is, and only one of the two alternatives might eventually yield an answer.
22:56 signpost perhaps in this framing good is what gives the coordinating human object as many cracks at the unanswerables as possible
23:05 mats asciilifeform: michael saylor's bizint firm that holds the most bitmaize of any public corp
23:06 mats mentioned several times in log now
~ 21 minutes ~
23:28 asciilifeform a ty mats . found
23:31 asciilifeform ( even found thread lol )
23:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 13:46:00 asciilifeform: punkman: right; so q is, whether microstrategy et al are qualitatively different kinds of organization with somehow infinite secret-keeping ability
~ 25 minutes ~
23:56 crtdaydreams I just found out that for whatever reason Nvidia proprietary drivers require rust lmao
23:57 crtdaydreams not to mention all the systemdisms that I tried to remove in portage.mask/crapolade
23:58 crtdaydreams settling for removing them in useflags so it should only be nvidia shitware that actually uses them
23:58 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: hm how does a binturd require rust ?
23:58 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: i have no idea
23:58 crtdaydreams it won't emerge without it, that's for sure
23:59 * asciilifeform scrapped last nvidia board yr+ ago, so nfi
23:59 crtdaydreams lol
23:59 crtdaydreams I just got a 3060
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