#asciilifeform | 2021-07-08

afk

~ 30 minutes ~

00:32

asciilifeform: i know ive asked you 500 tomes, but im mobile so imma ask again, can haz link to ur base58 in Ada?

00:33

s/tomes/times/

00:38

shinohai: wait, i had one??

00:39

was almost certainly someone else

00:42

u had a dir/ where u had draft of bitcoin in Ada, almost certain I saw it there.

00:42

shinohai: all i have is http://www.loper-os.org/pub/nqb/

00:42

(where no base58 or anyffin else pertaining to addrs, actually)

00:43

hmm maybe i have that in my Ada stuff anywho will look when back @ desk

00:43

shinohai: in logs found in fact shinohai's cl base58 , but was all..

00:44

yeah we briefly had thread on ugliness. I tried verisimilitude version in lisp too

00:44

seems to be all there is, at least in log.

00:44

*

shinohai still labors under delusion lisp is great for wallet functions

00:45

'it's great if you greaten it' or how did naggum put it.

00:45

troo

00:46

asciilifeform: didja see my latest in chinesium Assembled in usa" hww i acquired ?

00:46

dun think so?

00:46

http://btc.info.gf/blog/a-simple-bip39-diceware-script-in-common-lisp.html

00:47

hrm rip feedbot

00:47

shinohai: plox to manually brag in #a when you post new piece

00:47

^ an' other folx ditto

00:50

shinohai: post teardown of the iron?

00:51

*

asciilifeform vaguely recalls reading the vendor's materials and looking for whether this one, unlike the 8999 before it, shielded the rng

00:52

normally i get bored before answering the 'did they whiten' q, gigatonnes of src and answer always same in the end.

00:52

asciilifeform: will do, they have schematics on shithub too

00:52

shinohai: i saw. nothing there re shield tho.

00:53

the 'screen door on submarine' aspect of these 'sexy' machines also aint lost on asciilifeform . hardware rng, this, that, simply to use w/ prb !!

00:53

(or even shitcoins, often enuff)

00:53

im trying more reflash before i take apart tho, i got a firmware build i wanna try

00:53

ftr even asciilifeform's own rng work was arguably a mistake, there is nowhere for it to 'go'

00:53

Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.

00:54

this one, so far, is shitcoin free, but outfit apparently run by former shitcoin scammers and they "just wanna code next release in rust!1111"

00:54

the software that benefits from trng simply aint there yet.

00:55

shinohai: i've yet to spot ONE 'bitcoinism'-related venture that doesn't smell of scam.

00:55

No, asciilifeform, we discussed base 58 without BIGNUMs is all.

00:55

verisimilitude: i could've sworn it was verisimilitude who had an ada base58, hm

00:56

I'll write one eventually; I've something minor for release today.

00:58

I've decided I should release smaller programs more, similar to this one, lest I hardly release anything at all.

00:59

*

asciilifeform working for coupla days nao on a draft of the p2p algo. but nowhere near done yet, it is getting tiny scraps of time left over from gruntwork

↖ ↖ ↖

01:00

human-text draft, to be concrete.

01:00

maybe some time this month will finish..

01:01

I've learned to not be disappointed with slow progress, because fast progress wouldn't make me happy anyway.

01:03

verisimilitude: the frustrating thing for asciilifeform aint the 'slow' but the 'why'. 1week worth of work takes 3mo.

01:04

and that's if lucky.

01:06

signpost described correctly; but is 1 thing to describe the physics of flight to venus, and quite another thing to actually fly to it.

01:06

Logged on 2021-06-19 12:08:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1040037 << highest priority project should be ownership of one's time.

01:15

wb bonechewer

01:15

tnx asciilifeform!

01:16

bonechewer: and welcome to dulapnet.

01:19

re: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043841 , this item seems at least well thought out, not that I would trust a hidden purported-TRNG

01:19

Logged on 2021-07-07 20:46:22 shinohai: asciilifeform: didja see my latest in chinesium Assembled in usa" hww i acquired ?

01:19

bonechewer: at least ~this~ vendor was kind enuff to make the case translucent so i can see immediately 'no shield' and close the page...

01:20

( no segregation of digital & analogue boards, evidently, either.. )

01:20

if using one's own passphrase, why is lack of shield critical?

01:20

bonechewer: didntcha say 'trng' ?

01:21

a box that picks up 'voice of america' is not a trng. and to refer to it as one is fraudulent.

01:21

their TRNG is not auditable, so I wouldn't trust it, but the ability to sign transactions air-gapped seems convenient

01:21

right, all these things are very convenient, i suppose

01:22

and the redditus likes convenience.

01:22

begs the q of why to buy exotic irons, run the mswin on yer mother's comp, even more convenient/lazy

01:22

would it not be possible to use one's own secrets and ignore the TRNG?

01:22

bonechewer: why wouldja buy the box then??

01:22

if yer still stuck throwing dice.

01:23

(..is it good as a hammer? keeps drinks cold??)

01:24

*

asciilifeform observes that the linked item incurably demands prb -- like erry other similar shitware turned up thus far

01:25

there's so many of these nao that i've lost count.

01:25

'buy seekoority box, comes with over-9000 seekoritiness'

01:26

*

asciilifeform bbl.

01:27

convenience vs. security is a continuum, for my use case of paying folks in BTC a device like this is worth the time savings compared to tediously creating transactions from a paper wallet

01:28

and by virtue of being airgapped, a much different point on the continuum than leaving coins in a hot wallet on windows

01:31

*

bonechewer would be interested in knowing whether asciilifeform finds BIP174 objectionable, and if so why

~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~

03:01

bonechewer: yes, and for the same reason i object to e.g. ssl. i.e. it's gratuitously complex, and deliberately so, for obscurantist reasons, because designed by thoroughly untrustworthy (proven so repeatedly) people whom i would not trust with a piece of dried out shit, much less coin.

03:02

and it aint in trb; and i won't use a hypothetical patch where added to same.

03:02

because.. see above.

03:03

*

asciilifeform spent years ~removing~ their garbage from trb. aint about to ~add~ any.

03:05

*

bonechewer shares asciilifeform's opinion of SSL, but feels compelled to motivate his defense of "convenience"

03:05

"Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains. (tm)(r)"

03:06

*

bonechewer is unhappy that the regime increasingly punishes dissent by cutting off the dissident from the banking system

03:06

i dun see how 'old laptop' aint evenmoar convenient.

03:06

bonechewer: they can get trb whenever they want.

03:06

*

bonechewer would like it to become more widespread for sympathizers to use bitcoin to fund dissidents, nonwithstanding the regime's objections and invisibly to its KYC/AML.

03:07

bonechewer: mandatory thread re subj. the ameri-'dissidents' are intractable morons, to a man.

03:07

(trilema) 2017-12-22 weevlos: trinque: we are a media publication. our power and capital comes from the number of visitors we have to the site. we aim to transform through culture. if normal people cannot visit our site we are not accomplishing our goal

03:07

^ thread where no less than weev refused to host at pizarro. because ohnoez, mah dns, etc

↖ ↖ ↖

03:08

However, the average dissident sympathizer (I have in mind my doctor, who is very good at what he does, but is not the sort to grok the intricacies of operating systems and the command line) is unlikely to spend many hours setting up trb and learning about its failure modes; the investment of time is disproportionate to the perceived value of shooting a double sawbuck to encourage his favorite

03:08

thoughtcriminal.

03:08

So for wide adoption of BTC payments by those without the time to become specialists, it would be desirable to have a device that makes it easier for people to create and send bitcoin transactions without sacrificing the high level of security needed in the face of a nation-state adversary. Whether this "coldcartwallet" qualifies as such, of course I don't know.

03:09

bonechewer: are you aware of proverb 'things must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler' ?

03:09

[https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/213548-the-aim-of-science-is-to-seek-the-simplest-explanations

03:09

oops

03:09

"Seek simplicity and distrust it".

03:09

(also relevant)

03:11

"intractable morons, to a man". You forgot the grifters.

03:11

most of'em also (doesn't take so much intelligence to harvest the 'weevs')

03:12

bonechewer: re: btctronics, are you aware of concept of 'lemon market' ?

03:13

is why, for instance, there are 'over 9000' whitening pseudo-trngs on the market today, but the only nonwhitening, shielded trng had print run of 200 , half of which was sold at the bankruptcy hammer

↖ ↖

03:14

akin to "worse is better"?

03:14

exactly

03:14

and there is ~0 incentive for honest people, and plenty for the opposite.

03:14

over the long run, it is self-correcting: buyers of lemons will lose their coin

03:14

to each other.

03:14

it goes on 4evah.

03:15

'coin goes to smart folx' is an ancient fallacy.

03:15

*

bonechewer would not expect any trng to be a commercial success

03:16

bonechewer: on the contrary! the various 'iron wallets' scammers do brisk biz. esp. the ones pushed helpfully by usg.reddit et al.

03:16

Excuse the cliche, but it is no less true: almost no one buys products. People buy solutions to their problems.

03:16

often they buy, per tlp, 'feeling like a trader'(tm).

03:16

A trng on its own does not solve anyone's problem.

03:16

bonechewer: neither does hammer on its own.

03:17

modern man usually is not buying hammer, or rng, per se, but rather a fantasy which comes in the box with the hammer.

03:17

An honest trng could, though, be part of a solution to the problem "$REGIME keeps reading my text messages"

03:17

it would if it could be produced economically.

03:17

observe that even though 100% of schematic public, no one even produces ripoff from FG.

03:18

because does not pattern-match the kind of 'sexy' that scammers like to peddle.

03:18

I fail to see how. Many people, like my doctor, are not fools, but are also not technical. They want a turnkey solution.

03:18

rright and so straight into the arms of the scammers, who will ~always~ far more convincingly offer a simulacrum of 'secure and simple' than anyone offering actual security.

03:19

*

asciilifeform brb

03:19

You are of course right in 99% of the cases, as witness the wide adoption of "Signal"

03:20

Perhaps "Signal" messages are even encrypted competently-- who knows? All that means is, if Xi Jinping wants to read them, he will have to have someone root your phone over its baseband processor and grab them from your screenbuffer

03:21

One mid-level PLA hacker will be slightly later for dinner than if he had decrypted them in transit

03:24

*

bonechewer would like to exchange one-time-pads with his frens, store them in a phonelike device with no off-device interfaces save the read-only MicroSD slot with the OTP,

03:25

compose messages on that device, display a QR code with the ciphertext, snap a picture of it with his phone, and sent it off to his correspondent

03:25

This however leaves unaddressed the susceptibility of such a solution to traffic analysis

03:27

(for log-completeness: correspondent receives the ciphertext on his phone, captures the screen shot with the camera on his secure device, where it is decrypted with his own OTP and displayed)

03:31

If this is too inconvenient for drug smugglers, let them buy the FBI's next "encrochat" instead. They are not the sort of thinking people who would appreciate such an item, as asciilifeform points out above

03:35

But those who use encrochats will have their traffic read; those who use OTP correctly-- won't

03:50

for the technically challenged, sometimes i suggest coinb.in

03:51

with the added step of using a non-coinbin tool to verify the rawtx before offline signing

03:51

bonechewer: all of these problems -- solved. by asciilifeform . and documented in 7+yrs of logs. i even own hardware prototypes for most of'em, for all the good it does anyone.

03:52

bonechewer: the key bit is to understand that something may be ~physically~ possible, but not ~economically~ possible.

03:52

asciilifeform can build $box, or bonechewer can build $box, but in many cases no one can turn the manufacture of $item into a 'quit day job', much less to make it 'bestseller' and possible in long term.

03:53

*

bonechewer was not expecting to quit day job

03:53

and how does one solve the longstanding problem of key reuse, a failure mode that has quietly left a trail of bodies

03:54

some folks build boats in their spare time. bonechewer would build said OTPtron, except that currently has insufficient spare time to build either boat or OTPtron

03:54

Even before I realized SSL for what it is, I never used it on my website purely because of how much of a bother it is.

03:55

mats: thanks for pointer to coinb.in, have to admit, don't yet understand workflow for using with purely offline wallet -- but spent only a few seconds browsing; will revisit later

03:55

It's no convenience in any shape.

03:55

bonechewer: ever seen operetta 'west side story' ? in it there is line, 'I'll have my own washing machine.' and reply 'What will you have, though, to keep clean?'

03:55

most folx don't have any compelling use for otp.

03:56

Nor for boat

03:56

*

asciilifeform has in fact used, in the field, otp, with actual compelling reason. ~paper~ otp. but was atypical scenario.

03:58

*

bonechewer 's doctor insists on using "Signal" to discuss business (and we aren't even doing anything illegal!) but would botch and/or be too impatient for paper OTP

03:58

bonechewer: step1 occurs online, pass rawtx to airgap box, verify rawtx, sign, pass signedtx to live box and hand off to some www facing relay for broadcast

03:58

The easy solution is not having a doctor.

03:58

bonechewer: doctor almost certainly understands 'most folx prefer sweet idiocies' in the form of e.g. 'would rather take spam pills than eat less' etc

03:59

similar pattern here.

03:59

verisimilitude: per socrates, the easiest 'solution' is to not have been born, lol

03:59

That's not an option, however.

03:59

correct, but thumb-fingeredness with computers is an issue even for otherwise competent people.

04:00

hence, convenience as a design criterion. "Man is the measure of all things.(tm)(r)"

04:00

i wouldnt generate any keys with it but other than that its pretty usable for dummies

04:01

bonechewer: if the biznis is actually sensitive, and the risks -- real, and not imagined, convenience of the crypto no longer seems like 1st, 2nd, or 10th on the list of concerns.

04:01

mats: thanks for the explanation, glad to know web UI supports that mode. Is it the usual PSBT or some other format?

04:02

for "convenience" feel free to substitute "expected time to compete message exchange" or "probability of user error requiring restart"

04:02

dunno what that shit is

04:02

PSBT is BIP147

04:02

why do you want that

04:03

oh this is some multisig garbage

04:03

I don't; just curious about what format to need to parse

04:03

mats: it seems to be the prb-standard for interface w/ iron wallets.

04:03

I may be mistaken but I think multisig is optional

04:04

it's a massive ball of 'optionals', like most reich.standards

04:04

*

asciilifeform actually went and tried to read the 'bip', when mentioned earlier; barfed mightily

04:04

agreed, and few implementations actually bother with the optionals

04:04

theres a github repo for coinbin, find out

04:05

yes, will certainly do so. Agree that there are much more straightforward formats

04:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043958 << you store the pad in sram and walk over each block 1e8 times after it gets used. iirc discussed to death in #t days.

04:06

Logged on 2021-07-07 23:53:51 mats: and how does one solve the longstanding problem of key reuse, a failure mode that has quietly left a trail of bodies

04:07

ah, news to me

04:07

if you want to be 'low tech' -- store on magnetic tape and feed it into iron heated to curie point; or similar.

04:07

the other OTP bit I find tricky is the following:

04:07

mats: key is to make sure the 2 ends perfectly synchronized. (normally synchronous comms sufficient for this)

04:08

if the message header sez "This uses from byte 150 to 200 of the pad"

04:08

but it was spoofed by the adversary, and you overwrote it in sram, now you lost that part of key and can't read legit traffic using it

04:09

bonechewer: this also discussed (if not easy to find in O(1)..) -- you authenticate message before acting on it

04:09

right, but then if you are authenticating with OTP do you have a chicken-and-egg problem?

04:09

e.g. 1st 64bytes are H(64bytes of current pad block) (and not used for anything else), and if not -- nothing happens.

04:10

aha, that makes sense

04:10

bonechewer: you do not, because you synchronize the devices.

04:10

aha.

04:12

just about any hash-based checksumming will prevent anyone w/out a copy of the pad from forging messages. (you still gotta keep count, not only to sync but to prevent replays, however)

04:13

tempting to think about relaxing the synchronization requirement. For example, if the pad is much larger than the expected amount of traffic that it will be used to encrypt during its lifetime, maybe some probabilistic block selection can be done with low P of reuse

04:14

bonechewer: if the pad is large enuff, and traffic -- low enough, then can simply e.g. sync clocks and advance the block at the hour.

04:14

no reason to have a >0 prob. of reuse at all.

04:14

not with sd card storing TB+.

04:14

it's idiotic.

04:14

fair enough, I was thinking too small in terms of block size

04:16

modern storage devices can store otp for several yrs worth of continuous telephone, for instance, trivially.

04:16

the tricky bit is to get trng that can fill up a pair of'em in something like reasonable time.

04:17

yes, trustworthy TRNG should not use Xi Jinping's USB PHY

04:18

so a trustworthy high speed USB PHY is needed

04:19

bonechewer: FG worked fine over plain rs232. usb entirely optional. ( asciilifeform actually advised folx to throw out the ttl cable which came in the box and buy random one from random shop )

04:19

*

bonechewer has hopes that this would fill the bill; an auditable USB SuperSpeed interface would fill up that terabyte SD card a lot faster than RS232

04:20

bonechewer: lol where's the shield ? where the separation of digital board and analogue ? thing eats where it shits.

04:20

or lol this aint a purpose-built rng at all is it.

04:21

loox like simply standard ice40 dev board !

04:21

bonechewer: you understand that the difficulty is actually coming up with a physical process which yields multi-MB/s of actual entropy, right ? not usb etc

04:22

(it's a physical entity, like energy)

04:22

does not and cannot come from 'thin air'.

04:22

correct, this just lets you synthesize USB SuperSpeed in an FPGA

04:22

again the interface aint the problem.

04:23

for generating the random bits, linked pdf seems like a reasonable first cut

04:24

bonechewer: if there's post-processing, there are post-processing artifacts in the output.

04:24

iron law.

04:24

linked piece is exactly the kind of gratuitously complex garbage that the swiss.usg types selling $20k+ rngs (which whiten!) traditionally push.

04:25

Control-F in the linked PDF does not find "whiten"

04:25

bonechewer: they call it 'post-processing'.

04:26

They describe two "post-processing" methods, one of which is just taking the m least significant bits from an A-D converter if I am not mistaken

04:27

delish adc artifacts.

04:27

if you have adc in the circuit, yer fucked.

04:27

rejected, for reasons including this one, avalanche diodes

04:28

( they also -- age. )

04:28

what is the failure mode of AGC?

04:28

sorry, ADC?

04:28

bonechewer: do you know what a sampling artifact is ?

04:28

alas, no. I thought: stick to under the nyquist limit and you are okay.

04:29

it doesn't matter how you sample, or with what, there will be patterned jitters in both time and voltage dimensions.

04:29

doesn't matter. ANY consistent pattern and you're eventually fucked.

04:30

observe that these abominations also call for serious cpu, and MBs of firmware, and typically is multi-MB of bugalicious c soup.

04:31

for comparison, bonechewer , entirety of the logic for FG, 437 ln of verilog w/ comments.

04:32

this is the difference b/w usg.academitards, whose primary concern is to make selves 'look clever' and 'moar studies needed!!' boondoggle pump -- and folx actually solving a problem.

04:33

hmm, system in PDF did not strike me as requiring CPU, nor firmware, until after the A-D; and authors were from China, not USA

04:33

chinese academia worx very similarly

04:34

( the system, in this respect, is international, the selection criteria for academitards ~identical worldwide, the grantola often wired across borders, very little meaningful variation in degree of fraud )

04:35

Maybe I need to read more about jitter, but it seems to me that like any other sort of noise, its effects could be quantified, and it could be verified as being below some measurement threshold

04:36

bonechewer: effect could depend on anything, incl. earth's magnetic field, whether 'voice of america' is broadcasting, etc. goodluck quantifying in real time.

04:36

why bother with this nonsense, though, when actual solutions not requiring adc, optics, etc. exist ? is what i dun get.

04:37

supposing you're actually out to generate otp securely, that is, rather than justifying a $10m/y lab budget and grad student sex slaves.

04:37

So what design TRNG could do megabytes per second without an A-D?

04:38

stock FG yields ~7kB/s. 100 of'em i suspect still 10x cheaper -- and infinitely moar reliable -- than the linked horror.

04:38

if you want 'quantumism', i've a ~100 $ design that's good for coupla MB/s.

04:39

w/out adc.

04:39

but these will fill no fancy dissertations. so 'uninteresting' to the type of folx who shit out papers.

04:40

it's a solved problem. but there is ~no market in solving problems, but plenty in pretending to and 'drawing out the agony'.

04:41

scintillator plus detector? Isn't reading the detector output effectively a 1-bit ADC?

04:41

dafuq's a 1bit adc, lol

04:41

schmidt trigger.

04:41

there's no sampling.

04:42

*

asciilifeform must bbl, bedtime.

04:42

good night, asciilifeform! thank you for the enjoyable conversation.

04:44

in my mind a 1-bit ADC is a comparator, see e.g.

04:47

Look forward to understanding how one turns an observation from the analog world into bits without sampling. To me the two seem synonymous; but maybe that is just me

~ 44 minutes ~

05:31

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043862 http://verisimilitudes.net/2021-07-07

05:31

Logged on 2021-07-07 20:56:34 verisimilitude: I'll write one eventually; I've something minor for release today.

05:31

I miss feedbot or whatever its name was.

~ 24 minutes ~

05:56

Also, I found a placement for my BAT allowing me to use it a great deal without the previous discomfort.

~ 2 hours 51 minutes ~

08:48

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043946 << I'm working on OTP software design. though haven't thought much about the hardware side yet.

08:48

Logged on 2021-07-07 23:24:09 bonechewer: would like to exchange one-time-pads with his frens, store them in a phonelike device with no off-device interfaces save the read-only MicroSD slot with the OTP,

08:50

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044007 << no sync is needed, you have separate OTP for each direction of communication. So you can send 10 emails/postcard, and if friend never gets them, you just keep advancing OTP offset only on your end.

08:50

Logged on 2021-07-08 00:13:40 bonechewer: tempting to think about relaxing the synchronization requirement. For example, if the pad is much larger than the expected amount of traffic that it will be used to encrypt during its lifetime, maybe some probabilistic block selection can be done with low P of reuse

~ 45 minutes ~

09:35

a trustworthy encrypted voice channel would b nice

09:36

on hardware side, would like to have: 640x480 (or larger) screen, keyboard, camera, microsd, microusb, battery

09:40

https://airgap.it/offline-device/ << wonder how they supposedly airgap old phone

09:42

https://github.com/airgap-it/airgap-vault/issues/67 "Android 5 is the absolute minimum and even then you still to make sure that system webview is up to date. Can update it using google play store

09:42

"

09:42

lol

~ 1 hours 46 minutes ~

11:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-06#1042946

11:29

Logged on 2021-07-06 01:49:45 mats: god, i miss #b-a

11:30

you know, this brings up something that seems to have rang out over time

11:30

its pretty obvious to me, observing the progression from ba beginings to delusional scammer fest that it ended up as.

11:31

the point is that all commerce, all trade is in a way "scam". all of it.

11:32

there a guy on twitter, he has me blocked, cant remember his name now, he wrote crpytoeconomics book (first as a wiki iirc, then printed akšual book)

11:33

had an argument with him about this; his claim was something along the line that each trade that happens is inherently "good", as both involved parties are "better off" than before trade, otherwise it would not have happened

11:34

i argued that in some cases this is not true, for example when you buy an iphone

11:35

but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal. not equal, but better. otherwise nothing will happen.

11:35

obviously value is subjective etc etc yada yada

11:35

but, i think if you can see things through this lense, it can set you free of alf-type of concerns

11:36

trying to stay clear of it just makes you and idiot, not a nobleman.

11:36

an*

11:41

play or get played

11:47

the narrative of the transitional "community" also turned from actually doing shit to a thing that looks more like academic theoretical wankery, not surprising. fiat not allowed, this not allowed that not allowed, errything is sinful, cant do shit except theory in vacuum disconnected from fithly reality

11:48

maybe not completely useless, but not how you get shit done

11:49

the only way to get in heaven is to sit on your buttkorn and do nothing, ever.

11:51

on another note, davout, your argument about 500 years of bitcoin inactivity ... i dont like it. LN cant save you and if you do not have the potential to move coin avaliable at hand, its as useless as nfts.

11:52

we need to bring back the OpenMoko concept.

11:52

i need to be able to move it now if i need to move it now. in 500 ill be ded, who gives a shit.

11:53

OpenMoko was a barebones cell-phone with completely transparent firmware.

11:53

basically the Coreboot of phones.

11:55

the Firefox phone was a similar project, but it suffered from the explosion of dependencies and opacity of protocols, typical of "open sores."

~ 17 minutes ~

12:12

"but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal." << somewhere in logs I think we had a discussion about how "both parties must feel like they are getting slightly bad deal"

12:12

as the optimal point in deal making

12:15

if you are not getting "your moneys worth" dont make the deals (unless you are in liquidation)

12:15

slightly bad is just short of perfect

12:18

"I could have got more money for item, but our deal is good enough and I would like to sell to you" "I could have paid less for item, but our deal is good enough and I would like to buy from you"

12:18

that kind of thing

12:18

each party still thinks its ev+

12:18

thats the point

12:18

could say "meeting in middle" in other words

12:19

what you described, it just happened to me literally a few minutes ago, when i was extending the rent of the place im at now

12:19

yeah i could push it lower probably.

12:21

everyone is upselling

12:21

thats how the world works tm

12:22

upselling is term-of-art is spamatronics, means selling useless upgrades/addons

12:23

yeah maybe the wrong word for what i meant

12:23

I know what you mean

12:23

adding margin

12:23

yeah everyone thinks they shit gold, more people need to tell em to fuck off

12:25

perfect example of "upsell": airport priority boarding

12:27

some passenger airlines are still quite empty, i got a cheap upgrade to 'first class' the other day, my first time. hate to say it, but it was awesome.

12:28

the cargo airlines are in full swing. in total (passenger+cargo) we are at precovid traffic already.

12:28

this is worldwide count.

12:29

saw announcement that we are now to pay VAT even on items less than 22eur

12:29

(from china/outside eu)

12:30

yeah eu reminds of only fools and horses more and more

12:31

china bought port in Athens many years ago, drowning in chinesium now

12:33

yeah heard about that one from your homeboy yanis

12:33

easy solution to VAT problems, chinese/pakistani guy makes company, imports million eur worth of stuff, never pays VAT, disappears

12:38

"Keystone has pioneered the hardware wallet industry’s first open source Secure Element firmware."

12:38

then on shithub: "Notes:The self-destruct mechanism has been removed from the schematic as we chose not to disclose all of its functionality. In order to minimize the attack surface, we do not share detailed information on the Secure Element. For researchers who are interested in our Secure Element design, you can request we share the development

12:38

board, datasheet, and other materials under NDA (required by our Secure Element vendor)"

12:44

standard

~ 51 minutes ~

13:36

PeterL

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042241 << asciilifeform: did you come up with a solution to calculating the current difficulty for this system?

13:36

Logged on 2021-07-01 18:14:44 asciilifeform: was laying this out on chalkboard, and currently stuck on the puzzler of 'how do peers know 'the current difficulty' ?'

~ 40 minutes ~

14:17

PeterL: nope. abandoned the packets-with-pow concept entirely.

14:17

PeterL: shared keys strictly.

14:18

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044074 << you then gotta have sumthing like this, or enemy can induce pad exhaustion

14:18

Logged on 2021-07-08 04:50:42 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044007 << no sync is needed, you have separate OTP for each direction of communication. So you can send 10 emails/postcard, and if friend never gets them, you just keep advancing OTP offset only on your end.

14:18

Logged on 2021-07-08 00:09:52 asciilifeform: e.g. 1st 64bytes are H(64bytes of current pad block) (and not used for anything else), and if not -- nothing happens.

14:19

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044067 << i oughta have spoken more concretely: without ~synchronous~ sampling. asynchronous, and then with clock domain crossing, is usable.

14:19

Logged on 2021-07-08 00:47:00 bonechewer: Look forward to understanding how one turns an observation from the analog world into bits without sampling. To me the two seem synonymous; but maybe that is just me

14:21

and for so long as it's with purely analogue/hysteresis device (in mine, used comparator) rather than 'ladder' or 'bucket' adc

14:21

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044077 << why all of these ?!

14:21

Logged on 2021-07-08 05:36:33 punkman: on hardware side, would like to have: 640x480 (or larger) screen, keyboard, camera, microsd, microusb, battery

14:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044086 << this was actually a lulzy speech by der fuhrer, recall, in that chinese restaurant in timis

14:22

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:31:38 kakobrekla: the point is that all commerce, all trade is in a way "scam". all of it.

14:22

Logged on 2020-05-13 10:03:01 asciilifeform: recalls wunderbar speech by mp in chinese restaurant at his timis '2nd conference', where 'there is no such thing as not a scam, errything's a scam from someone's pov'

14:24

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044089 << see also

14:24

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:34:04 kakobrekla: i argued that in some cases this is not true, for example when you buy an iphone

14:24

'...we need a word that describes the artifacts generated in response to irrational actors who demand to be fooled. As the old saying goes, “A fool and his money are soon parted” – at the fool's own insistence, no less! If the deer comes out of the forest and walks up to the hunter, it is not proper hunting, and this is not proper con artistry or grift or embezzlement or any other term

14:24

we use to describe proper works of evil. If the victim, at the sight of the economic predator, goes into doggie submission, we must stop discussing the phenomenon in terms of conflict and consider whether what we are observing might be some strange instance of symbiosis.'

14:26

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044090 << better than ~without the trade~, not necessarily thinking 'bahaha, what a fool he is to trade with me'

14:26

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:35:13 kakobrekla: but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal. not equal, but better. otherwise nothing will happen.

14:26

imho 'all trade is scam' has approx. similar intellectual merit to the ameri-feminist's infamous 'all sex is rape'

14:27

in actual life, 'trader' and 'scammer' are most often distinct social types. one plays 'repeated prisoner's dilemmas', the other 'single-shot'.

14:28

in modern world there of course also is the repeated-scammer who nevertheless gets to push via tv, 'bitcoin magazine' (what's the current incarnation called? do i want to know?) but these are affiliates of ~official~ scams, and arguably a variety of.. tax collector

14:29

(official scam, backed with force, is also called tax)

14:30

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044092 << dunno how you managed to miss, but asciilifeform runs a small biz, where things sold for btc, in fact, and no sort of 'vegetarian'. and no one to date grumbled about being scammed afaik, is printed in big letters exactly what one gets, what it costs, etc.

14:30

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:35:49 kakobrekla: but, i think if you can see things through this lense, it can set you free of alf-type of concerns

14:33

tbh asciilifeform's chief objection to the 2010s-bitcoin-'sphere' scamologies is ethical, but not from pov of 'it is wrong to eat stupid people', but from pov that this is exactly what the reich wants to see so that bitcoin remains dead end

14:34

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044096 << imho all of it is obscurantist scamology -- make 1,000,000 ln of shitcoad so that ~no one~ can actually understand how $shitcoin works; exploit own 0days, ???, 'profit!111'

14:34

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:47:47 kakobrekla: the narrative of the transitional "community" also turned from actually doing shit to a thing that looks more like academic theoretical wankery, not surprising. fiat not allowed, this not allowed that not allowed, errything is sinful, cant do shit except theory in vacuum disconnected from fithly reality

14:36

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044104 << there's strictly one way to make a sane portable device of whatever kind -- zero other-peoples-code. like in FG.

14:36

Logged on 2021-07-08 07:55:19 gregory4: the Firefox phone was a similar project, but it suffered from the explosion of dependencies and opacity of protocols, typical of "open sores."

14:37

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044105 << often enuff, the grudge of both parties is with their reality, and not with each other ( you don't want to have a toothache; dentist would rather sit on beach than drill your tooth; both of you are together without necessarily being excited about it )

14:37

Logged on 2021-07-08 08:12:24 punkman: "but akšuali, both parties in a trade must think they are getting the better end of the deal." << somewhere in logs I think we had a discussion about how "both parties must feel like they are getting slightly bad deal"

14:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044134 << utterly typical.

14:39

Logged on 2021-07-08 08:38:43 punkman: then on shithub: "Notes:The self-destruct mechanism has been removed from the schematic as we chose not to disclose all of its functionality. In order to minimize the attack surface, we do not share detailed information on the Secure Element. For researchers who are interested in our Secure Element design, you can request we share the development

14:39

Logged on 2021-07-07 23:18:53 asciilifeform: rright and so straight into the arms of the scammers, who will ~always~ far more convincingly offer a simulacrum of 'secure and simple' than anyone offering actual security.

14:40

*

asciilifeform finally eaten log

~ 21 minutes ~

15:01

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044159 < idk about you sex ANALogy, buuut we basically agree that scam is subjective. from where it flows that anything can be framed as such. so accept that and move one with your life.

15:01

Logged on 2021-07-08 10:27:38 asciilifeform: in actual life, 'trader' and 'scammer' are most often distinct social types. one plays 'repeated prisoner's dilemmas', the other 'single-shot'.

~ 18 minutes ~

15:20

anyway who cares, too academic and not ever science.

15:20

asciilifeform: is 205.134.172.27 your node? my crawler is showing that sometime in the last hour or so it jumped from around ~40 connected peers (mostly good) to ~1200 peers (mostly fake/spam)

15:22

another trb node, 205.134.172.26, also jumped in the same timeframe (from an average of around ~175 connected peers to now 1885 in the most recent poll - most of which appear to be spam)

15:24

actually all of them seem to be returning significantly more spam peers in the last 1-2 hours

~ 16 minutes ~

15:41

billymg: .27 is a test noad (presently not advertised). .26 is a noad belonging to a subscriber. presently afaik nothing can be done (beyond 'malleus') about pseudonode spammers polluting addr cache

15:41

(test noad of asciilifeform's)

15:41

billymg: this sort of thing, sadly, happens regularly

15:42

asciilifeform: it's consistent across all trb nodes that my crawler has picked up, and all in the last 1-2 hours (first time i've observed it since running this thing)

15:42

kakobrekla: imho it is possible to 'feel scammed' without someone actually scamming you. and also is entirely possible to come up with a working def of a scam -- something you would not buy into if you had complete info re what it was.

15:42

asciilifeform: so possibly is passing phase and node count/quality will return to normal after some time?

15:43

billymg: possibly. or possibly not; see if you can capture a dump of the spamola for possible inclusion in iptables, if this carries on.

15:44

billymg: possibly 'eye of sauron has turned' to trb again.

15:44

Logged on 2020-02-26 16:13:05 asciilifeform: bvt: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/wedge/wedger.py ; and use with http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/wedge/snap_49999.txt or hash file of same format of your choice.

15:46

billymg: would be interesting to see what the pseudos have in common.

15:47

asciilifeform: the peer lists have been captured (the crawler is now stores probe history up to N probes, as set in conf). i'll dump the results somewhere permanent before the cap is reached

15:47

ty billymg

15:48

billymg: i'ma park watchglass on dulapnet later today/tomorrow, can resume regular survey then

15:48

( or possibly billymg's thing will eventually supercede it.. )

15:59

asciilifeform: having trouble locating the thread on demise of pizarro isp; more specifically the "why" and the "how"

↖ ↖

16:03

thestringpuller: there is not one compact thread re subj. see e.g. this thrd on my www (scroll to 'concretely..') for brief summary.

16:03

!q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo

16:03

BingoBoingo last seen in #therealbitcoin on 2021-06-30 14:06:28: ;;later tell CobraBTC: Ñeri, quien es usted?

16:04

^ the man-on-the-ground during these events and direct witness.

16:05

thestringpuller: mp sent BingoBoingo to uruguay (iirc was a choice b/w it and brazil) and when BB discovered that the only practical way to get irons there is to import (and either smuggle or pay 200% tax) , mp said 'oops' and put the isp (then called 'b.isp') for sale.

16:05

thimbronion

thestringpuller: fwiw even though pizarro went down, I liked the idea of having my own server outside of the US enough to set one up in Costa Rica.

16:06

asciilifeform & mod6 bought, initially as even shareholders.

16:06

thimbronion: imho errybody oughta have a rack near where he lives.

16:06

thimbronion

asciilifeform: it's the way to go.

16:07

asciilifeform: MP changed mind on "outside of US" and wanted you to then run rack? (this is piece I think I'm missing)

16:07

thestringpuller: mno. let's do in order.

16:08

thestringpuller: soo we started with BingoBoingo already deployed as 'hands', and arranged for folx to slowly smuggle machines into uy.

16:08

also started with a 42u rack, at what turned out to be the monopoly dc.

16:09

see the orig books if interested in what this cost -- was astronomical price.

16:10

eventually an unknown party ddosed piz's ip block, in rolling order. wasn't much by standards of 'civilized world', but turned out to be enuff for the shithole upstream gear to fall down. dc 'repaired' by unplugging us, and repeatedly lying about it.

16:11

after a short while, we refunded customers, evacuated gear, BB burned the disks, filed lawsuit (went nowhere, unsurprisingly) and auctioned off all remaining assets.

16:12

BingoBoingo ^ if i missed anything, plox to fill in.

16:13

thestringpuller: after demise of piz (but prior to asciilifeform's 'sack' by mp) there was a pile of machines, belonging to former piz customers, with nowhere to live. asciilifeform was 1 of the contenders to make a modest micro-isp, signed lease for a rack in east usa within 30m, by auto, of asciilifeform's house.

16:14

initially mp was interested, then barfed when learned that asciilifeform has no intention of 'scaling up' to include entire planet, rather than personal l1, in his isp.

16:15

barfed conclusively when asciilifeform answered unambiguously that no, he will not sign a lease on a $5fig/mo rack 'for growth', wtf, has no way to supply usd for this, has no intention of selling btc under whatever pretext, and no, will not allow the operation to be subsumed into (arguably already defunct at that pt) snsa

16:16

mp then excommunicated asciilifeform , proclaimed 'enemy', Officially closes snsa, etc

16:17

aha. sorry if this seems dense, but I am still woefully confused on change in stance of "hosting in orcistan" being a problem?

16:17

was entire point of UY right?

16:17

thestringpuller: asciilifeform opposed the 'all eggs in one basket' approach, was in favour of 'many cheap machines spread geographically'. but mp wanted 'meat work'

16:19

'meat work'?

16:19

(why ? because he was gunning for a reich, not decentralized-anything)

16:19

Logged on 2021-06-18 14:17:46 asciilifeform: thimbronion, PeterL : the other thing was his megalomania -- very much did not like 'little network for self & associates' but only schemes where 'put whole planet under the yoke one day! thousandyearreich!!!' etc

16:21

thestringpuller: meat, i.e. people wheeling around crates, scrounging for food, outwitting bureaucrats, etc. rather than simply 'sit in armchair'. (even if the ~rational~ solution to 'where to host www' ~could~ be solved in fact from armchairs..)

16:22

thestringpuller: lemme put this in perspective -- for roughly same current/bandwidth, cost in uy was TEN TIMES what asciilifeform is paying in usa.

16:23

well of course fiber in Central-America isn't cheap which is why those hosted zones run the bill up

16:23

(not even to mention the fact that there is not a national monopoly on dc here)

16:23

thestringpuller: it was on the single solitary national fiber pipe.

16:25

N. Virginia and Oregon datacenters are generally pretty affordable...

16:25

thestringpuller: to conclude the summary -- asciilifeform's current isp aint a continuation of piz; but the same irons and softs are offered, incl. rockchip (afaik nowhere else avail.)

16:25

thestringpuller: are you speaking of lulazon's ?

16:26

cuz you can't colo at ~those~, lol

16:26

no there are 3 spots I've looked at with fiber already laid in Virginia, South Carolina and Oregon that had reasonable colocation

16:26

rates

16:26

only small sample size of the area tho

16:27

i think it's because the fiber lines there have been there for some time so maybe it brings down cost of bandwidth?

16:27

But south carolina hosting much cheaper than the colocation place near me.

16:27

thestringpuller: what is 'good deal' depends ~heavily~ on what you're intending to do (e.g. host a half-rack like asciilifeform ; or build a pleasure palace from the ground up that needs 1000GB/s ... )

16:29

asciilifeform: i'm not as fortunate as my best friend who lives in SC who has fiber directly plugged up to his single family house. runs personal data center out of would be guest room.

16:30

thestringpuller: i've 1 of these also. it aint up to 'commercial' standards tho, no matter how you cut it (e.g. if falls down, you'll wait 24h or longer for repair)

16:30

nor is it cheap or easy to equip typical house with dc-grade cooling, power, etc.

16:31

*

asciilifeform has Gb/s in house but not about to try to host people in it commercially

16:31

asciilifeform: thank you for the history lesson.

16:32

thestringpuller: for particulars, i rec to read, of course, the log.

16:32

asciilifeform: much easier to find now with the breadcrumbs you've tossed, TY

16:32

np.

16:35

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044217 << revisiting this: it was the 1st macroscopic, impossible-to-ignore collision b/w mp's lunacy and reality.

16:35

Logged on 2021-07-08 12:17:16 thestringpuller: aha. sorry if this seems dense, but I am still woefully confused on change in stance of "hosting in orcistan" being a problem?

16:35

and set in motion the events which killed his reich.

16:37

after asciilifeform's 'unpersoning', mp has one of his cocksumers shop around in europistan, in vain, for a dc that'd eat btc directly, and without 'make account' and similar mp-allergens. (unsurprisingly, didn't find)

16:37

Logged on 2021-06-27 10:54:47 asciilifeform: managerial types luvv these to death, they reliably produce 'steady labour' flavour that satisfies performance metrics, whether bureaucratic (reich orgs incl. usg) or sadomasochistic (mp's)

16:37

*cocksuckers lol

16:37

('cocksumer' perhaps also usable word!)

16:38

anyways last asciilifeform knew, the eulora thing ended up in a standard heathen dc on a rented intel box, sans FG, etc.

16:38

where 'lived happily ever after' !

16:42

asciilifeform: oh before i forget. is it possible to lease fg as part of hosting service? didn't see it on: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3557; i know i could co locate mine but given previous conversations want to use this one locally.

16:42

thestringpuller: i do not have any remaining, unfortunately, to let out

16:44

*

asciilifeform at one pt had notion of making another run, and possibly of new type, but realized that massively -ev

16:45

thestringpuller: outta curiosity, what softs do you have that could actually make use of FG on a server ?

16:50

thestringpuller: last i knew, dpb was still offering sealed FGs for sale; i rec to contact him.

16:51

( he purchased entire 1st printing of'em , and iirc still has some remaining )

16:58

asciilifeform: experimenting with some game mechanics that require RNG - nothing revolutionary or mind blowing.

16:58

thestringpuller: there's ~0 advantage from using an iron rng (and a slow one) in a game imho.

16:58

(unless there's money involved)

17:00

asciilifeform: so MP hated you simply because you refused to sign leases with American datacenters on his behalf?

17:00

that is what the story seems to boil down to.

17:00

gregory4: refused to end up in another piz-style ball an'chain

17:01

where 'must somehow get 10,000 randos to subscribe' or go ~personally~ broke

17:01

asciilifeform: I thought randos/heathens were not target market, what changed there?

17:02

thestringpuller: Officially, 'nothing changed' , he put it as 'expand wot!' rather than 'lease to randos', even though effectively ~idempotent

17:03

this sounds more like Keith Raniere everyday...

17:04

..who?

17:04

asciilifeform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Raniere << if interested

17:07

A PRNG is going to be preferable for a game, in most cases, just for the determinism, unless I've misunderstood the game this is.

~ 43 minutes ~

17:50

thestringpuller: a, that one, i seem to recall. a kind of pre-bitcoinism mp, and one who actually did most of what the latter merely bragged about

17:54

( re 'cults' , though: see, however, also. )

17:54

Logged on 2020-05-17 14:19:24 asciilifeform: thinkin' about it in depth -- the weakness of cults aint that they're not an effective form of organization, from pov of command vertical. rather effective. the weakness is that even nominally clever fuhrer is stuck ordering disciples to do stupid shit, to 'show devotion'. whether it's self-flagellation, 'mortification of flesh', or using mysql, php, etc. the pathology is ultimately same.

17:54

Logged on 2021-01-18 15:23:42 asciilifeform: which is another aspect of why asciilifeform falls down laffing when e.g. nubs shows up to whinge about 'cult'. asciilifeform co-designed that 'cult'. and aint the least bit sorry. and takes a steaming piss on 'normal people' and their fraudulent 'not being in cults' and equally not sorry.

17:54

Logged on 2021-01-18 15:06:05 asciilifeform: on this subj, and iirc asciilifeform addressed it before many times -- the reason why will NOT respect whiners about 'cults' -- is that there is NOT in fact such a thing as 'not being in a cult'. the saeculum is ALSO equally a cult. and an especially grotesque one

~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~

19:24

So, what are the thought's on Github Copilot; I believe it's a blatant violation of copyright, and some others have uploaded some of my libraries to Github, but MicroSoft seems to believe it can abuse the plebeians, and we'll see. I find it stupid and obviously useless, regardless.

19:25

I figure asciilifeform won't care, since even if it used FFA, it would be worse than useless to butcher it like that.

19:25

verisimilitude: what was this ?

19:26

verisimilitude: i haven't knowingly uploaded anything to public shithub in almost decade, i think. so nfi what this was

19:26

I'll fetch a link.

19:27

https://copilot.github.com

19:27

lol, shannonizer for coad ?

19:28

No, ``AI'' of course.

19:28

( oblig naggum ! )

19:28

hey why not automate the usual 'indian coad' generation process, where morons cut&pasta from shithub.

19:28

seems entirely logical.

19:30

i expect will create even moar abundance of 'a library full of books that took 50 man-years to produce each, inventing a way to cut down the costs to a few man-months per book by copying and randomly improving on other books, and then wondering why nobody thinks your library full of these cheaper books is an inspiration to future authors' liquishit.

19:30

It spits out verbatim GPL code, so naturally people view it as MicroSoft trying to avoid it by making an ``AI'' argument.

19:30

than already littering the net.

19:31

verisimilitude: nao what did i say about gplism.

19:32

Logged on 2019-12-23 23:50:36 asciilifeform: but if/when you do, and did it 'under gpl', will be stolen 100% Officially. because half-measure.

19:32

( and elsewhere . pretty sure i beat the subj. to death.. )

19:32

Logged on 2021-02-21 17:14:32 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it aint 'rolling over' to recognize that the pistol is a toy and pulling the trigger and screaming 'bang' kills 0 enemy

19:33

... the key, imho, concept, there.

19:33

Logged on 2021-02-21 17:15:33 asciilifeform: important, imho, step in the development of any 21st c. thinking fella, is the realization that the legal system is an enemy, like cancer, it does not work 'for you' and if appears to be doing so, is simply to dupe you into delusion and voluntary compliance where otherwise would not

19:35

FFA wouldn't be safe either.

19:35

safe from what?

19:35

from being plagiarized? how was 'safe' before ?

19:36

when you publish $piece, people can crib it, and it is a mind-boggling imho case of delusion to pretend that you can do anything about this.

19:36

Well, it wasn't.

19:36

Yes.

19:36

so then.

19:37

Still, this is very blatant, unusually so.

19:37

verisimilitude: have you seen what most of shithub seems to consist of? i almost feel sorry for the folx who will try to use this.

19:38

copyright what? read the agreements

19:38

newbs signed up for copilot

19:38

I don't look often.

19:39

Not all code there was uploaded by the owner.

19:40

anyway theres a lot of this tool proliferation, like tabnine

19:40

verisimilitude, mats : anything you throw on the net, can and will end up absolutely anywhere, this is imho elementary, 'water is wet'

19:41

Yes.

19:42

anyways the linked items ('copilot', 'tabnine') imho logical products of the ongoing deskilling of the profession.

19:42

use ever moar abject 'indians', moar money remains for yachts, etc.

19:43

hey, it aint as if the quality of sv shitware actually matters to anyone.

19:43

Logged on 2021-06-19 14:28:16 asciilifeform: billymg: there's a kind of phase transition sometimes called 'snake loses his legs'. where a vestigial/newly-superfluous organ atrophies.

~ 41 minutes ~

20:24

ive taken to referring to software as a lemon market

20:27

in other keks, https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/michael-avenatti-sentencing-nike-extortion-case.html you would think a lawyer would know how to run a legal extortion scam, with decades of prior art

~ 46 minutes ~

21:14

lol!

21:17

mats: won't surprise me if d00d turns up as a $2mil/yr ceo of some tbtf 10y from nao.

21:17

he's made of 'the right stuff'.

~ 56 minutes ~

22:13

some github guy saw people on twitter trying to coerce GPT-3 into being indian coder. He thought "that's fookin perfect mate!", called up OpenAI "when can we set a meeting? we have amazing ideas!", and then Copilot was born.

22:15

might be pretty good for guy with 12 full-time remote jobs.

22:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044246 << how the hell was this the first

22:22

Logged on 2021-07-08 12:35:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-08#1044217 << revisiting this: it was the 1st macroscopic, impossible-to-ignore collision b/w mp's lunacy and reality.

22:22

punkman: 1st one, i suspect, that he could not 'digest' (i.e. rationalize away)

22:25

'...and sentimental songs which were composed entirely by mechanical means on a special kind of kaleidoscope known as a versificator.'

22:25

('1984')

~ 23 minutes ~

22:49

asciilifeform: always wondered if the early tmsr group believed that 5-7 pairs of hands working w/o pay could maintain forked OS, toolchain, custom hardware, etc...

22:50

magnus: not only 'could', but.. did. (for some value of 'maintain')

22:50

magnus: moreover, good % of it still, in some real sense, maintained.

22:50

ah, figured the workload would become eventually become exponential... as inbox filled with backports, patches, kludges, etc...

22:51

just for the kernel alone, much less everything else...

22:51

magnus: cutting off heathens does have the advantage of losing the overflowing inbox.

22:51

haha, tru

22:54

magnus: the trick here is realizing that almost errything traditionally considered 'maintenance' is simply maggot brownian motion.

22:55

lol, until it isn't, I suppose so...

22:55

small changes over time snowball...

22:55

consider that if the linux kernel was still REQUIRED to fit on a 1.44MB floppy -- there's likely be no 0days in it to patch.

22:56

little deviations eventually become large deviations, breakage, etc

22:56

ah, that'd be my dream... 2.2x forever!

22:56

magnus: you find the people breaking things and kill them with flamethrower. or, more practically, cut their output entirely off from your systems.

22:56

as we did with e.g. poettering.

22:57

that is one approach, sure

22:57

yes, what a mess there...

22:57

it's the only approach that results in something that doesn't make maintainers want to eat their pistols eventually.

22:57

there aren't 2 or 3 approaches. there's 1. this one.

22:57

I am a very happy person since took asciilifeform 's lead and mirrored own Gentoo distfiles.

22:58

hygiene isn't optional.

22:58

whaack

shinohai: I was thinking about doing this for centos...how much space does one need for this kind of thing?

22:58

or rather, it is, if you don't care which to be, man or swine

22:59

whaack

I understand it's a bit of a stupid question since that depends on what libraries you include / how big the repository is

23:00

whaack: distfiles/ only ~17GB which I don't consider *massive* real estate since has 2TB drive plugged into www anyway.

23:02

*

asciilifeform doesn't pretend that his gentoo vault is any kind of total collection of the known universe. contains strictly items which asciilifeform at one time had used, however briefly, across ~dozen boxen since '07.

23:04

It seems to do most of what I want it to do, can always add ebuilds/tars of missing items (like php every 3 months when they do an "update" if ya need that for instance)

23:04

i've added 2-3 things to the vault since orig. publication.

23:04

(mostly on request of isp subscribers)

23:05

what i really oughta do, is to walk the final portage snapshot and automatically hunt down as many of the tarballs as still possible which are ~not~ in the current vault.

23:05

shinohai ^ good project if you have the cycles

23:06

^ equally for other folx

23:06

the most frequent criticisms of the 'vault' are : 1) 'it has packages for which there are public 0days' -- yes, it does. 2) 'it is arbitrary' -- yes, it is.

23:07

if $you don't like it, 1/2 bother you -- write the fuck in ! and fix!

23:07

2 specifically 'aint a bug, but a feature', yes, fucking arbitrary, the line had to be drawn somewhere.

23:07

I'd simply patch self likely, like did for sbcl so could use it with a musl profile.

23:08