Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2020-12-15 | 2020-12-17 →
00:02 feedbot << A Syndication of Verisimilitudes -- A Review of ``Let Over Lambda'' By Doug Hoyte
~ 10 hours 23 minutes ~
10:25 cgra the course i'm now attending for my sane computing curriculum, is binary auditability. atm i'm carving out the glibc bloat and trinque's musl bootstrap seemed like a suitable ingredient. i just finished building it and came to report the results so far
10:25 snsabot Logged on 2020-09-07 19:30:13 trinque: asciilifeform and shinohai, find instructions to build the musltron here
10:27 cgra the stage 2 didn't work for me as is, because texinfo seems to depend on help2man, *and* vice versa
10:28 cgra texinfo generates it's manpages using help2man, and help2man generates its info pages using texinfo
10:31 cgra considering various approaches, the least dirty way to get around it was to add a "help2man_binonly" trinque-designed install target, with a simple "cp help2man /bin/help2man; chmod 755 /bin/help2man" install commands
10:32 cgra the still-dirty part here is that i had to copy the help2man 'software package' with a new 'help2man_binonly' name
10:33 cgra i got it to finish this way, and didn't run into any other, obvious issue afterwards
~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~
12:11 asciilifeform cgra: neato. (btw, in case wasn't obvious, the gnat used by asciilifeform for ffa work has been glibc-free since ch11)
~ 21 minutes ~
12:33 cgra << asciilifeform, wasn't aware of exact details when, but i assumed musl-based, yeah. also, personally already had to drop a handful of ffa's restrictions, and tweak a ffa build param, because so far i've been using the gnat in ubuntu 16.04, which is older than the adacore 2016
12:33 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 12:11:49 asciilifeform: cgra: neato. (btw, in case wasn't obvious, the gnat used by asciilifeform for ffa work has been glibc-free since ch11)
12:34 asciilifeform cgra: outta curiosity: which gnat? and which pragmas ?
12:34 cgra 'gnat --version' says 'GNAT 4.9.3'
12:35 cgra and copyright year up to 2014
12:36 asciilifeform cgra: in the past, where asciilifeform & others found gnats where pragmas incompat., was not version issue as such -- but that there is an entire lineage of broken gnats ('fsf fork')
12:36 asciilifeform cgra: ~these~ gnats also known to break e.g. inlining.
12:36 asciilifeform my rec. is not to use these. for anything.
12:37 cgra right. trinque's bootstrap ought to solve these issues too
12:37 cgra (for me specifically)
12:38 asciilifeform aha. as i understand, his procedure ( i have not, ftr, yet replicated ) results in a gnat compatible w/ ave1's (i.e. the one i presently use)
12:38 asciilifeform and pragmas etc. can stay , there, as given.
12:39 cgra ubuntu 16.04 gnat (mine) didn't accept these pragmas: No_Fixed_Io, No_Implicit_Protected_Object_Allocations, No_Implicit_Task_Allocations, No_Multiple_Elaboration, No_Task_At_Interrupt_Priority, Pure_Barriers
12:39 asciilifeform cgra: this nails it -- you had a 'fsf' gnat.
12:42 asciilifeform cgra: re auditable binaries -- my eventual goal is to get a completely libc-free substitute gnat rts for use w/ ffa (and potentially other items).
12:42 snsabot Logged on 2020-08-06 13:28:21 asciilifeform: recently had been looking at the 'ada rts' and its variants (e.g. ave1's) with the aim of eventual 'iron' rts that actually builds stock ffa/peh.
12:44 cgra asciilifeform: as a curiosity, another gnat quirk was a compiler switch '-fdump-scos', only '-gnateE' worked, which appeared to be the same, only older name
12:47 asciilifeform cgra: the output of the dump is used in debugging, and by the htmlizer.
12:49 cgra asciilifeform: did you have a specific 'os' approach already in mind for this iron rts? apparently not linux, also 'dos-like' mentioned, but maybe not exactly a 'dos'?
12:50 asciilifeform cgra: the only 'os' knobs presently required by ffa, is a working stack; access to command-line args; and character i/o (read/write console) .
12:50 cgra asciilifeform: re dump-scos, right
12:53 cgra asciilifeform: is the slim-os peh box going to resemble the 'cardano' item as originally thought?
12:54 asciilifeform cgra: in certain ways would inevitably resemble.
13:06 asciilifeform cgra: i ought to make clear that i do not atm have any plans to mass-produce any kind of irons (beyond handful of prototypes for own use.) simply because it -- afaik -- cannot be done economically.
13:08 cgra asciilifeform: yeah, gotten this impression from the logs too
13:08 asciilifeform see also.
13:08 snsabot Logged on 2020-08-20 19:00:15 asciilifeform: it is also the case that rng as commercial product is a very questionable biz proposition. it takes quite a bit of 'adulthood' to even get to a place where you actually benefit from a 1000 $ rng. for instance, microshit victims dun really win anyffin from using whatever external rng.
13:11 asciilifeform re: economics, take, for instance, asciilifeform's earlier attempt at irons. at no point had anyone to whom could delegate inspection & testing. so 100% of units sold, tested with ~own~ hands. this does not scale.
13:12 asciilifeform and will also note, no one (w/ exception of 1 -- at the time -- lurker) outside the 'cult', bought.
13:13 cgra yeah, pretty tiny market
13:14 asciilifeform cgra: i'm not even convinced that there is a niche market.
13:19 asciilifeform << i tend to use 'dos-like' as a shorthand for any hypothetical os which does not carry on background processing (i.e., invocations of os api are 100% explicit)
13:19 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 12:49:42 cgra: asciilifeform: did you have a specific 'os' approach already in mind for this iron rts? apparently not linux, also 'dos-like' mentioned, but maybe not exactly a 'dos'?
13:20 asciilifeform technically msdos itself did not 100% conform to this portrait, it hooked the timer interrupt, updated time of day. but the idea imho is clear.
13:21 cgra basically, one program runs at a time
13:23 asciilifeform aha. and w/out interrupts (aside from power toggle.)
13:25 cgra i must switch to async mode again, talk you later!
13:25 asciilifeform laters.
~ 43 minutes ~
14:09 verisimilitude The state of computing is both maddening and pathetic.
14:09 verisimilitude There's a ``silver lining'', in the idea that those such as us can make an influence, however.
14:11 verisimilitude It's akin to wanting to become an architect, and learning to horror that no one actually knows how to build bridges.
14:17 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'll admit that i do not believe, at this point, that 'can make difference' -- the decay of computer is simply small part of the general decline of the current civilization. and everything i write, will, sooner rather than later, vanish underneath kilometers of liquishit. but choose to act as if this were not the case. similarly to how soldier goes into the attack without
14:17 asciilifeform thinking about the certain death (and one who insists 'to think' , is correctly called a coward)
14:19 asciilifeform see also.
14:19 snsabot (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
14:20 asciilifeform and, in similar vein, also.
14:20 snsabot (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
14:22 asciilifeform it is similar to how, in all (but perhaps the reich's) conceptions of medical ethics, doctor does NOT get to ask the question 'does treating this patient benefit societal good (tm)(r)(c) or maybe why not poison him'
14:23 asciilifeform so, asciilifeform does not suffer the illusion that 'will make difference!' by writing. chance of this, is ~0. but continues anyway, 'because fuckyou'.
14:24 asciilifeform and will note, historically ~100% of acts that did 'make difference', were carried out strictly on the basis of 'because fuckyou', i.e. w/out giving half a shit re 'chances'.
14:25 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
14:25 btcinfobot Current BTC price in USD: $20676.13
14:25 asciilifeform ^ record ?
14:25 asciilifeform !w poll
14:25 watchglass Polling 16 nodes...
14:25 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661496
14:25 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
14:25 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.085s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.094s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=661595 (Operator: whaack)
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.140s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
14:25 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.340s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=391683 (Operator: jurov)
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.310s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661385
14:25 watchglass : Alive: (0.297s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
14:25 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.305s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661649
14:26 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.523s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=435421
14:27 watchglass : Busy? (No answer in 120 sec.)
14:36 verisimilitude I'm convinced I can make some manner of influence, the purpose of my previous messages being to note that, when I'd first started my journey, I'd no idea it would be so odd. I'd no idea just how immature and senseless it would be.
14:38 verisimilitude Charlatans such as Bjarne Stroustrup go on stage and pretend to have done anything of any worth, rather than only being actively detrimental to society.
14:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: depending on how low is your personal standard for "make some manner of influence" -- perhaps then can
14:39 verisimilitude I could be using a lower standard, yes. I seek to influence computing in the same way a mathematician could influence mathematics, say.
14:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: stroustrup is best understood in light of the deskilling fashion of the '80s--present.
14:40 verisimilitude Is C++ even good for deskilling labour?
14:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i could say 'but mathematics, unlike computing, actually advances..' but now not convinced even of this.
14:40 verisimilitude It's filled with bizarre issues which require a brain to step around.
14:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ~was sold~ as good for deskilling process.
14:40 asciilifeform similar to , decade later, javaism.
14:41 verisimilitude Computing is most unlike mathematics for the same reason it appeals, because of its more practical nature, which invites charlatans.
14:42 verisimilitude What's a ``Developer Advocate'', but someone who can't program, yet still wants the attention associated with it?
14:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: optimizes for, in fact, charlatans.
14:42 asciilifeform is systemic problem with entire field.
14:44 verisimilitude Yes; charlatans not only don't know what they're doing, but have an interest in overstating the difficulties of basic tasks to normal people.
14:46 asciilifeform verisimilitude: entire field is structured in such a way that anyone who does not behave this way, remains obscure and with 0 mass influence.
14:46 snsabot Logged on 2020-08-12 13:04:27 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it long ago went from 'mistake, like leaded petrol' to deliberate 'job-creating tech' fraud.
14:46 verisimilitude Yes.
14:48 verisimilitude Still, we found each other, and others find me. I know loper-os influenced me.
14:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: a++, then. erry yr or so, 1-2 folx write in, 'i read this, it made sense, ty for writing.'
14:49 verisimilitude Yes; it's pleasant when I get emails telling me how I've educated another.
14:51 asciilifeform occasionally folx even show up w/ sumthing useful.
14:51 asciilifeform but very rarely.
14:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: upstack -- imho it is worth understanding why well-designed, simple, and functional systems remain obscure, while perl/cpp/microshit 'wins'. if more sane folx understood the basics of the underlying civilizational decay which powers this process, would die of cirrosis less often and overall happier imho
14:53 asciilifeform (when they do not understand -- tend to 'blame self')
14:56 verisimilitude One could argue the current democratic system encourages such self-blame.
14:58 verisimilitude I occasionally think back to my schooling, and how ignorant I'd be had I not taken mine education into my hands, but I was able to recognize that this was the only way I'd truly become educated; most people think they've better things to do than learn.
14:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho 0 to do with the political systems as such, but folks in computing industry, more than in e.g. medical, labour sometimes for entire career under the delusion that there is 'market of ideas' where 'better tech wins' etc
14:59 verisimilitude My comment on democracy was more general, sure.
15:00 verisimilitude I'd think a main aspect to this is they simply don't understand for why the machines exist.
15:00 verisimilitude We've surely heard versions of the stories concerning the man who builds a calculator program, where every possible combination is explicitly covered.
15:01 asciilifeform the delusion is not accidental, it is cultivated quite strategically, to draw participants into various tournament markets.
15:03 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there are in fact two main schools of thought re the q of why machines exist (not even speaking of computer in the particular!)
15:04 verisimilitude That's a classic, yes.
15:04 asciilifeform verisimilitude: at the risk of oversimplification -- one school is that they exist so that rockefeller can buy 15 yachts instead of 1 while you work in either case 25 years of 14hour days and then die.
15:05 asciilifeform other school -- machines exist so that you can perhaps work 10y of 2h days, and if rockefeller objects, you can kill him with yet-another machine.
15:05 verisimilitude While I prefer the latter, neither quite match my thoughts.
15:06 asciilifeform the former school, currently (unsurprise) dominant, the latter -- not detectable, in known universe, afaik. but this is simplistic model, which imho nonetheless usefully describes the fundamental split.
15:08 asciilifeform as to 'why', see e.g. discussion re 'technology of rule' and bonsaikittenization.
15:08 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-17 11:36:28 asciilifeform: from 'technology of ruling' pov, whole post-war 20th c was one continuous thrust in that direction. i.e. the rulers on some level realized that 'resting on bayonets' is dead end, not because doesn't work (can work for many yrs at a stretch) but because the threat ever hangs , that the fucked-with will find a way to strike back, and give you a 1917.
15:09 asciilifeform is rather deep (and quite 'flammable') subject , of which you are unlikely to find a thorough and intellectually-honest treatment perhaps anywhere. esp. in english.
15:14 verisimilitude On this general note, I'll be preparing a comment to give another remark on a foolish worship of such false gods; care to see the altar in question?
15:14 asciilifeform wainot
15:14 verisimilitude
15:14 asciilifeform i recall reading this, and utterly failing to extract 'the point'
15:15 asciilifeform there is unfortunately a whole net of this kind of drivel, where author evidently sat down to 'fill the page' but w/out any actual idea to express
15:18 asciilifeform see also re these 'ideas'.
15:18 snsabot (trilema) 2016-08-17 phf: Framedragger: i was young and a bum, i recognized all these people because my entertainment machine would reinforce their presence for me. "oh jwz is talking. oh now it's ptacek. oh it's paul graham! squee". but they were always in a different category from say norvig or knuth or naggum. once i started doing and learning (i.e. painfully read knuth, rather than just have him on my shelf) i finally was able to grok the difference.
15:18 snsabot (trilema) 2016-12-11 phf: goes back to our conversation about "why you no respect ptacek". since their opinions are not hinged on any deliberately lived experience, they change them according to fashions. if you happen to be fashion aligned you'll think that they are geniuses, but as soon as you start doing your own thing, you realize just how superficial they are
15:18 snsabot (trilema) 2016-08-18 asciilifeform: y begin to understand that a hacker is someone who resembles Eric Raymond. Dave Winer has recently and mercifully moved his essays off to audio, but you can still hear him snorfling cashew nuts and talking at length about what it means to be a blogger[7] . These essays and this writing style are tempting to people outside the subculture at hand because of their engaging personal tone and idiosyncratic, insider's view. But after a whi
~ 21 minutes ~
15:39 verisimilitude The only point I see is worshipping Mammon.
15:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there was more substance (and, more entertainment value) in a typical piece in 'pravda', than in pieces like the linked item
15:42 asciilifeform erry succeeding generation of 'cockroach man', i suppose unsurprisingly, is more pathetically incapable of meaningful output, than previous.
15:45 asciilifeform 'every time we thought we hit the bottom, somebody knocked from below'(tm)(r)(ru meme)
~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
16:52 billymg << tbh anything below $100k is a bit of yawn, given all the printing they done and how much the stock market has inflated as a result
16:52 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 14:25:12 btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $20676.13
16:52 billymg they've*
16:58 billymg asciilifeform: what do you use to generate the list of popular articles in your www's sidebar? is it automated based on view count? hand rolled functionality or off-the-shelf wp plugin?
17:01 billymg it's a handy feature and i noticed mp-wp doesn't have it (or at least it isn't obvious to me yet where it's buried if it does indeed exist somewhere in there)
~ 1 hours 42 minutes ~
18:43 trinque hey folks, just wanted to flag that if some batshit regulation around crypto wallets comes out soon, I will be enforcing whatever nonsense they demand.
18:44 trinque if that's unappealing to you, I encourage you to stop using the wallet before that happens.
18:46 trinque or if a person in a saner jurisdiction wants to pick this component up (jurov?) I'm open to that as well.
~ 41 minutes ~
19:28 mats thanks for your years of service
19:29 feedbot << The Montevideo Standard -- USAG Barr Out, Electoral College Goes For Biden
~ 31 minutes ~
20:00 asciilifeform trinque: is this warning prompted by anything in particular, or simply depression from hruschevrump being retired in favour of bidenezhnev ?
20:01 * asciilifeform would close shop sooner than enforcing, satan forbid, any new 'regulations'. there's already 'over 9000' regulation-enforcing shops to choose from, i've no interest in running one.
20:02 asciilifeform ftr asciilifeform uses deedbot-wallet today strictly as a store credit acct for subscription to deedbot .
20:03 asciilifeform trinque and in your case, even in 'apocalyptic' scenario, i can't see wainot run it 1) for l1 strictly 2) via pgpgram controls strictly.
20:03 asciilifeform if in your l1 there is a usg stooge, you will have problems whether or not operating a wallet service.
20:03 asciilifeform and if there aint -- yer bulletproof.
20:04 asciilifeform << 100% agree, and see also.
20:04 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 16:52:09 billymg: << tbh anything below $100k is a bit of yawn, given all the printing they done and how much the stock market has inflated as a result
20:04 snsabot (alethepedia) 2020-10-11 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the altcoinists -- sure . but i was speaking of the fact that the exch rate prolly aint growing another 0 -- or rather, not w/out the dollar price of archaetypical sandwich also growing a zero.
20:05 asciilifeform << 100% by hand.
20:05 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 16:58:44 billymg: asciilifeform: what do you use to generate the list of popular articles in your www's sidebar? is it automated based on view count? hand rolled functionality or off-the-shelf wp plugin?
20:05 asciilifeform << did anyone seriously expect sumthing else ?!
20:05 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 19:29:14 feedbot: << The Montevideo Standard -- USAG Barr Out, Electoral College Goes For Biden
20:06 shinohai Heya asciilifeform speaking of yer www, couldja link me to where you have all the seals various folx have signed for ffa ?
20:08 asciilifeform shinohai: i dun have a centralized page for such links. deliberately. i dislike catering to folx who 'just want to build it'. fucking read the series. one article at a time.
20:09 asciilifeform ffa is more of a flamethrower against 'i just want to build it' people than anyffin else, arguably
20:09 shinohai ahh ok, I was just curious if there was such a thing. (ftr I don't "just wanna build it") but rather wanted to mirror sigs with my notes)
20:10 asciilifeform shinohai: fair'nuff. i'ma assemble a tarball for you (but probably not today)
20:11 shinohai asciilifeform: No rush. I'm trying to discipline self to finish the series, have carved daily time for this.
20:11 asciilifeform shinohai: where are you in it nao ?
20:12 asciilifeform (and ftr, series aint quite finished on asciilifeform's end presently. but i strongly suspect that i'ma finish it before any reader has..)
20:13 shinohai Ch. 7 presently was as far as I got. Gotta check and ensure I uploaded my seal to yer www, I left off when girls went back to visit Colombia.
20:13 * shinohai had to *gasp* cook for self every day ....
20:13 asciilifeform shinohai: feel free to put in a <tt></tt> in a comment. or link.
20:14 asciilifeform shinohai: btw 1-11 are here (on acct of the keccak regrind in '18)
~ 21 minutes ~
20:36 asciilifeform lest this escape -- verisimilitude : i bought that book when it came out, and enjoyed at the time. but today i'm of same mind re this item as of pg's 'on lisp' --
20:36 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 00:02:34 feedbot: << A Syndication of Verisimilitudes -- A Review of ``Let Over Lambda'' By Doug Hoyte
20:37 asciilifeform most of what is illustrated in these works, imho ought not to be done. e.g. anaphoric macros. 99++% of the time simply abused by folx who want to 'look clever', and in fact serves no useful purpose, proggy becomes ~less~ readable.
20:38 asciilifeform and take reader macros. here for instance i illustrate a program which is made substantially shorter via their use. but was good idea ? and ought to have even written said proggy ?
20:38 asciilifeform similar observation can be made re many other 'clever' techniques.
20:39 asciilifeform take e.g. lazy evaluation. (in some esp. horrifying prog langs, is standard!) when is it actually a Good Thing from the pov of 'fits-in-head' ?
20:41 asciilifeform haskellism is a sin.
~ 18 minutes ~
21:00 verisimilitude The book is worth reading, but not all of it's worth remembering.
21:00 verisimilitude There's only, I believe, one more Common Lisp book I've read that I've not also reviewed.
21:01 verisimilitude Well, there's another I've no intention to review.
21:11 trinque asciilifeform: declaring my lack of intent to involve myself in the common law digestion of bitcoin.
21:11 trinque if they say I have to take your passport to send a withdrawal, I'll be doing that.
21:12 trinque if you don't want me to do that, !!withdraw now.
21:12 trinque hopefully they aren't so stupid as to do that. if they do, I'll just be awaiting their demise epsilon more quietly than before.
21:18 trinque incidentally it's trump's dipshit munchkin that's apparently mulling kyc for traditional node transactions.
21:20 superkuh That can't be enforceable. But then again, I suppose it's not the point. The point is to criminalize normal behavior and arbitrarily enforce.
21:20 asciilifeform trinque: i'd take whatever warning (historically always was warning) an' close.
21:23 asciilifeform trinque: feel free to invoice me for 1, 5, 10, however yrs of deedbot service you're willing to contract in 1 shot. after which will withdraw remainder, given that you seem to want outta the walletron biz
21:24 trinque I'm happy to continue to run that indefinitely, but bitcoin is no longer going to be res publica for me.
21:24 trinque hopefully I'm not on IRC in 10yrs; why don't we work something out next summer or w/e it is. may as well be free.
21:25 asciilifeform trinque: imho is valuable service, and i have 0 problem paying. even if has to be bought n yrs at a time to avoid enriching miners.
21:26 trinque glad you find it valuable; it'll continue to be available to you.
21:26 trinque this is entirely about the creeping FDR scenario for btc.
21:27 asciilifeform re upstack: imho bitcoin works correctly precisely for so long as the users don't have to give a flying fuck re fdrization, 'common law digestion', etc
21:27 asciilifeform as far as i'm concerned, it is already effectively banned. yet somehow still not gassed.
21:28 trinque correct, which is why I oughtn't be cold storage for folx.
21:28 trinque I can see a scenario where I rework it to track addresses but contain nothing itself.
21:28 asciilifeform trinque: my conception re orig. utility of deedbot was more of a 'store credit' than substitute for actual wallet.
21:28 trinque thus invoices still work etc
21:28 trinque yep
21:29 asciilifeform i.e. asciilifeform can buy bitcent's worth of deedbot subscription w/out paying some fuckwad in china five bitcents, etc
21:30 trinque maybe BingoBoingo wishes to pick the wallet up. he's freer than most of us.
21:31 trinque no pressure, but entirely open to that.
21:33 verisimilitude What a thought. I don't even much like IRC and I've been using it for years.
21:33 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 21:24:55 trinque: hopefully I'm not on IRC in 10yrs; why don't we work something out next summer or w/e it is. may as well be free.
21:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: laugh if you will, but asciilifeform was orig. 'dragged kicking and screaming' to irc. by mp, of all people.
21:33 verisimilitude I'd laugh, but it's not so funny.
21:33 trinque verisimilitude: some folks made a distributed udp chat app atop
21:33 trinque appears to work, even
21:34 asciilifeform 'the Node.js implementation' << lel
21:34 trinque ikr
21:34 verisimilitude I'm of the opinion there should be no difference between IRC, email, etc. The only difference should be in how they're commonly used, but there's no reason not historical to have separate protocols.
21:34 trinque obviously so
21:35 asciilifeform trinque: makes ms vb feel 'lightweight', eh
21:35 verisimilitude If only were it obvious.
21:35 trinque yeah, not speaking of these implementations, or even that they got the protocol right
21:35 trinque speaking of the void they farted this into
21:35 asciilifeform trinque: it aint the protocol, in such cases, that worrisome. but whether they 'got' ~personnel selection~ right.
21:37 asciilifeform i've yet to see any example where there is smell of e.g. 'node js' , where there is 'something under the mouse shit' to be found
21:37 trinque what personnel? I'm literally the only person on the default chat "swarm" atm
21:37 trinque :D
21:37 asciilifeform trinque: authors
21:37 verisimilitude That little game on loper-os is neat, asciilifeform.
21:37 trinque sure, just 'taking the piss'
21:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: which ?
21:37 verisimilitude It's the guessing game.
21:38 trinque they don't appear to have any notion of proper WoT in this thing
21:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: aa, ulam's fortune teller
21:38 verisimilitude That's an example of some JavaScript not entirely worthless, although it was translated from BASIC, right?
21:38 trinque most likely utterly DDoSable.
21:38 asciilifeform trinque: i've not witnessed where, other than us, had anything resembling an organized notion of wot
21:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it's a dozen ln of straight js, tho. vs multi-MB 'libraries' of e.g. 'node'.
21:39 asciilifeform verisimilitude: errything i know about js, learned in '90s on 'netscape', to 1st approximation.
21:39 verisimilitude I've written one line of JavaScript, and it never even saw the light of day for its intended purpose.
21:40 trinque verisimilitude: the js world's known for trivial programs hauling in 3gb of dependencies
21:40 verisimilitude I'm considering writing some, for one page and a simple purpose, but I'm not looking forward to it.
21:40 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i (and not only ) am convinced that the author of js intended it as a practical joke
21:40 verisimilitude Yes, left-pad and is-even and all of that.
21:40 verisimilitude The cretins also have the gall to complain about mockery pointed at them.
21:44 asciilifeform trinque, upstack : ftr asciilifeform spent ~years~ just about 'praying to satan' for a 'fdr scenario' . where perhaps suddenly e.g. serpent hardware ciphrator, to shoot in the head very concept of 'digital evidence', would be suddently marketable.
21:45 asciilifeform ( even nao, with correctly-operated setup, no one can prove that trinque, even if found 'with pants down', in fact controls one single privkey. simply, presently 'correct operation' is nontrivial.)
21:46 asciilifeform imho, evolution of decentralized systems stalled, because climate ~too hospitable~ for bitcoin, turned out.
21:46 trinque sure, the banks et al are going nowhere
21:47 asciilifeform aha, but at the time when wrote the piece, was quite convinced that in 2-3 yrs , folx would be publicly hanged on mere suspicion of involvement with bitcoin.
21:48 asciilifeform (and, that said friction would drive technological refinement. weapon/counter-weapon.)
21:49 trinque nah, worst scenario here is just that the derps let coinbase and a few others have regulatory capture, and coinbase will sell itself to jpmorgan or similar.
21:49 asciilifeform trinque: afaik already owned (by andersen, not jpm -- but , is important difference ? )
21:49 asciilifeform and already is the only Officially Permitted place to sell coin in usa. for some years.
21:50 trinque when it's done being corrupted, you'll know, because it wont work for you, them only.
21:50 trinque mining, as you aptly observed years ago, is the bug.
21:50 trinque you can hide the keys; you cannot hide the mines
21:50 asciilifeform in all respects that involve usd -- thing already 'worx only for Them', to a 1st approx.
21:52 asciilifeform trinque: in point of fact, could easily hide the mines. that one can read about massive racks full of identical chinesium in operation somewhere, is neither here nor there. yes it is cheaper to operate if you dun have to hide, rather than having to disguise the boxen as cable tv decoders. but entirely optional luxury.
21:52 trinque who, hide from whom?
21:52 asciilifeform if the mines have to be hidden -- or rather, if it becomes +ev to hide'em , from whatever obvious inspection -- they will be. and for all i know, already routinely so.
21:53 asciilifeform trinque: hide from hypothetical tax inspector or other bandits
21:53 trinque I don't mean space pirates hiding tiny miners; I mean the giant industrial ones producing mega-heat
21:54 asciilifeform the mega-heat is simply from 1e6 fingernail-sized ics under 1 roof. there's no particular reason why they ~have~ to live under 1 roof. (tho yes, is cheaper than alternative atm)
21:54 trinque not to mention mega-draw of power, which is already reported to the govt per utility user.
21:54 asciilifeform right, but above applies similarly.
21:55 trinque the alternative requires a great awakening of the derps, does it not?
21:55 trinque or otherwise some cyberpunk cable modem manufacturer, or?
21:55 asciilifeform nope. in fact periodically surfaces already, i recall not long ago, a (shitcoin) miner turned up in a commonplace 'nas' device. (dun have link handy atm, sadly)
21:56 trinque point being I don't expect great success with it
21:56 trinque what I expect is govt mandated address blacklists within ten years
21:56 trinque or otherwise the collapse (god willing) of the megastates, but who knows.
21:56 asciilifeform trinque: atm it's a -ev / curio. but if 'tightened screws', could easily become the standard type of miner.
21:57 asciilifeform trinque: recall, there is already 'mandatory blacklist'. iirc had 5 whole addrs in it! on usg's, no less. for some reason no one gave half a fuck in '17 (or when was this) or now.
21:59 verisimilitude Maybe the government's just pretending to be incompetent, asciilifeform.
21:59 asciilifeform to summarize above : in '11, asciilifeform thought 'they'll build concentration camps for bitcoin users'. but actual strategy of enemy seems to be 'let's spread fud, and the users will shit themselves thinking about concentration camps, and will go home'
22:00 trinque mining centralizes, ongoingly. treaties around mining will be made eventually, if not soon.
22:00 asciilifeform verisimilitude: what's the upper temporal limit re this hypothesis ? already on 11th yr of somehow not concentration camp.
22:00 trinque from there, the entirety of the totalitarian system will slip into bitcoin.
22:01 verisimilitude I was wondering, were my sarcasm to communicate properly or not.
22:01 trinque concentration camps were some dipshit painter's fetish
22:01 asciilifeform trinque: british invention. boer war.
22:01 trinque the banks were in control before him, and after him
22:01 trinque sure, just saying it got him hard
22:01 trinque it did nothing else
22:02 asciilifeform actually worx great. if bumping people off simply, rwanda-style, eventually partizan resistence. (see also how rwanda endgame.) but if take hostages -- slows process.
22:06 asciilifeform upstack, stratagem 'shoot erryone who so much as mentioned bitcoin' was 'the spoon is good at dinner time', i.e. was the 'thing to do' 7y ago. before the oligarchs bought in. (these generally do not appreciate attempts to make their holdings worthless)
22:06 asciilifeform fdr incidentally succeeded (for some value of..) because his elite largely did ~not~ hold au in serious qty, afaik.
22:10 asciilifeform as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
22:12 asciilifeform and yes, may have easier life (or at least death..) if leave off e.g. publicly discussing concrete tx's. ('good time to quit is 20y ago; 2nd best -- now')
22:12 asciilifeform then again very same piano may fall on you regardless.
22:13 * asciilifeform already outlived his expected death by half a decade or so..
22:17 verisimilitude There's never a good time to die, is there?
22:18 asciilifeform verisimilitude: e.g. napoleon, disagreed ('if there had been a musketball for me in moscow!' if only')
22:18 asciilifeform << would like to emphasize -- imho if this is physically possible, then the sooner it takes place, the better. so can move on from the broken algo, to something else.
22:18 snsabot Logged on 2020-12-16 22:00:28 trinque: from there, the entirety of the totalitarian system will slip into bitcoin.
22:19 asciilifeform whole point, imho, of bitcoin, is to remove element of 'what might bureaucrats decide tomorrow' from the game board.
22:19 verisimilitude In these modern times, I'd rather take a strictly anti-suicidal stance, so that any ``suicide'' of mine is obviously not.
22:19 asciilifeform if fails at this -- it is a failed experiment. and the folx left alive, ought to try something ~else~.
22:20 verisimilitude I'm not important enough to kill though, and what a horror that no one would ever look upon me and even think about killing me.
22:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there's apparently a pretty long queue for 'getting suicided', there aint enuff for erryone.
22:20 asciilifeform even epstein had to sit in his cell for a coupla days iirc.
22:20 verisimilitude I really doubt he's actually dead.
22:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: outta curiosity, why ?
22:21 verisimilitude To draw an analogy, vampires can't kill other vampires, right?
22:21 asciilifeform 'redivisions of the pie' are routine among oligarchs.
22:21 asciilifeform much of '90s in ru consisted, sometimes very publicly, of this process.
22:21 asciilifeform happens ~mandatorily when 'pie -- shrinks'. as is happening today in the 'civilized' world.
22:22 asciilifeform so in point of fact, vampires rather frequently kill vampires.
22:22 verisimilitude I've no doubt vampires kill humans when convenient, but I'm more skeptical when there's such a show of them supposedly killing another vampire.
22:22 asciilifeform happens all the time. sometimes spins outta control into world war..
22:23 verisimilitude Of course, this is one of many topics with which an opinion is easy to make, and entirely irrelevant to my life, so it's unimportant.
22:23 asciilifeform when condemned 'vampire' won't 'go quietly'
22:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: as it happens, not entirely irrelevant. or, think, wouldn't have contemplated it.
22:23 verisimilitude That just makes anything one thinks about relevant to one's life, which stretches tho concept of relevancy rather thinly.
22:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: normally, if you're any kind of effective thinker, will rarely find yourself contemplating 100% irrelevant material.
22:25 verisimilitude I suppose.
22:25 asciilifeform in the sense where spam filter contemplates spam -- yes, will. but not often otherwise.
22:25 verisimilitude Say, on that note, I've noticed many of the user agents I get from the logs being those for phones; it was a tad surprising to see so many phones.
22:26 verisimilitude Had I a phone, I probably wouldn't've formed my greatest ideas, borne of boredom.
22:26 asciilifeform verisimilitude: almost sop today, for various bots to use pnoje-style ref string
22:26 asciilifeform why -- i've nfi
22:26 asciilifeform possibly they get served a lighter page, with fewer MB of js.
22:29 * asciilifeform will bbl.
~ 27 minutes ~
22:56 shinohai LOL "Digital Democracy" re:
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