Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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02:54 asciilifeform billymg: waiting on crate of ram, sadly (atrocious delays in shipments)
~ 22 minutes ~
03:17 * asciilifeform burned most of day buying an ancient truck.
~ 22 minutes ~
03:40 billymg asciilifeform: ah, bummer. i guess sort of a trend these days though
~ 10 hours 59 minutes ~
14:39 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
14:39 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $56494.58
14:39 asciilifeform !w poll
14:39 watchglass Polling 14 nodes...
14:39 watchglass : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.129s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242 (Operator: asciilifeform)
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.207s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : Alive: (0.205s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=712242 (Operator: whaack)
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.261s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.308s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=711612
14:39 watchglass : Alive: (0.524s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.325s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=711957
14:39 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.528s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
14:41 watchglass : Alive: (0.835s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=712242
~ 35 minutes ~
15:16 PeterL << thimbronion: could we have blatta server say when it started instead of just saying "sometime"?
15:23 punkman << I see Vitalik has found the secret to scaling, just stop storing the blockchain ("history/state expiry")
15:30 asciilifeform punkman: there's nuffin new under the sun?
15:30 asciilifeform see e.g.
15:30 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-03-16 asciilifeform: 'where did this money come from, how much exists in total' 'dunno, in the Great Pruning of 2050 the scrolls of the ancients were lost'
15:34 punkman what an unholy pile of complexity. surprised the base layer hasn't gone up in flames already.
15:35 asciilifeform punkman: already burned down at least once (the 'dao' incident), was redrywalled at usg expense, spraypainted, and still 'inbiz' in same sense as prior
15:46 asciilifeform punkman: the 'proof of stake' thing (in the ethertards' implementation -- effectively a centralized 'license to mine') is imho adequately explained by this hypothesis.
15:46 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-14 11:55:48 asciilifeform: i.e. as soon as perp starts to notice that he's no longer the dominant miner, will 'upgrade' the pow, and the chumps will eat it up (given as they ate a shitcoin to begin with, being chumps)
15:47 punkman asciilifeform: the "dao" incident was a smart contract failure, seems these happen every couple days
15:48 punkman the proof of stake is lulzy considering their foundation had a 70% premine.
15:49 asciilifeform punkman: afaik just about erry major shitcoin to date had massive premine (whether Officially admitted or not). still somehow perp nearly always proclaims pow switcheroo eventually.
15:50 asciilifeform cuz what they actually set out to build are 'paypals' (i.e. backdoor-permissioned tx scheme) and simple premine alone doesn't give this
15:50 punkman even if they've dumped 40%, seems like foundation can easily control 50% of stake "mining"
15:50 punkman *dumped 20%
15:53 asciilifeform well previously iirc they had pow (with oddball workfunction) and 'had to' resort to forking chain to 'unhappen' their 'smartcontract failures'
15:53 asciilifeform now won't 'have to', can simply unpermission the tx in question
15:53 thimbronion PeterL: was actually considering implementing /uptime
15:59 asciilifeform thimbronion: unrelatedly, prolly oughta gc unused AT entries when the peer in question has a live one
16:00 asciilifeform thimbronion: noticed that my AT is littered with obv. defunkt ones
16:00 asciilifeform the spec calls for only 1 per peer at a given time (dunno if i made this properly clear)
16:04 thimbronion asciilifeform: can do. For some reason I recall reading at some point in the spec that stations were to keep a record of previous addresses. Can't find it now.
16:05 asciilifeform thimbronion: per '2.4. The AT': '... AT (Address Table), which holds the last known address of each WOT peer.'
16:06 asciilifeform there's no reason i can think of to keep dead addrs
16:07 thimbronion Only reason I could think of at the time was maybe for forensics. Other than that I can't think of anything.
16:07 asciilifeform a pair of peers that is able to make contact will always have a valid AT for one another (and after 'Address Cast' is in place, it'll suffice for them to be in contact with their net, then can always establish AT for one another via a common peer)
16:09 asciilifeform (to be more exact, via a common path through their net, technically not even need to have common direct peer)
16:11 asciilifeform when we have 'Address Cast', station operator will almost never need to manually set AT entries
~ 15 minutes ~
16:27 jonsykkel is a pestron meant to distinguish between forks and breaks (unresolvable by getdata) in the chain?
~ 19 minutes ~
16:46 asciilifeform jonsykkel: aha
16:50 jonsykkel in what way? tell operator "this is break" or "this is fork", but otherwise the same - /resolve marks last seen message of broken chain or forked chain as valid?
16:51 asciilifeform jonsykkel: correct. see also.
16:51 jonsykkel alright
~ 30 minutes ~
17:22 billymg ethereum full nodes (actual full nodes, that store the entire history since genesis, what they call "archival nodes") now have to sync a >4TB blockchain
17:23 jonsykkel "The fork will be considered resolved only after the station operator executes the command /RESOLVE" << what happens if getdata solves a break after operator has been told theres a break?
17:23 billymg and apparently sending any transaction on the eth blockchain now costs around $100 in "gas fees"
17:23 billymg which doesn't of course matter to anyone who "uses" eth because they're all just using it to trade meme coins via coinbase or other goxes
17:24 billymg << "It's not an archive node, but the ethereum network can function just fine with zero archive nodes."
17:25 billymg see also relevant quote from this article: "The last time I tried to sync a node with full history of the blockchain, I gave up. After a few weeks and an Amazon AWS bill of over $10K, I gave up."
17:27 billymg i think by now mEth users made up entirely of idiots who don't know what decentralized even means and cynics who know it's just a usg-sponsored scam but are betting it "wins" for that reason
17:27 billymg and possibly a third, cynics fleecing users in group 1 for more btc
17:36 asciilifeform << this.
17:36 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-02 12:15:39 jonsykkel: "The fork will be considered resolved only after the station operator executes the command /RESOLVE" << what happens if getdata solves a break after operator has been told theres a break?
17:37 asciilifeform << afaik was this from day1
17:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-02 12:19:57 billymg: i think by now mEth users made up entirely of idiots who don't know what decentralized even means and cynics who know it's just a usg-sponsored scam but are betting it "wins" for that reason
17:37 jonsykkel right, but does the peer get marked as unforked?
17:38 asciilifeform jonsykkel: it oughta (if had not been marked manually), and this is a good point, oughta be in spec.
17:39 jonsykkel ok cool
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
19:10 cgra thimbronion: blatta 9986 notes, of simple variety. undefined variables: 1) Station.rebroadcast():packet_info, 2) Client.notice_and_privmsg_handler():formatted_message. Missing import: Channel._write_state:tempfile. Last and the least: inside lib, no need to import 'lib.something', plain 'something' works cuz in same scope (+ as a bonus, my IDE wouldn't nag about them)
19:17 thimbronion cgra: ty!
~ 17 minutes ~
19:35 adlai re:pow and work functions - a few years back, I discussed with Guy Corem (a former manufacturer of mining chips) the approach of having the overall structure of the work functions agreed upon, but having precise parameters varied as a function of the history
19:35 adlai I don't remember his exact comments, although my conclusion was that I don't have enough understanding of the arguments for what makes certain hash functions difficult, and others, easy.
19:36 asciilifeform adlai: you didn't cite the orig source, didja, lol
19:36 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-12-18 asciilifeform: ( to complete the picture above : no pow, but a tx ~does~ carry a lubyism, e.g. three lengths of 64bits , each of these the xor of 3 64bit substrings of the world-state, hashtronically selected based ~strictly on the tx payload's hash~ -- nothing to waltz, yer stuck with so-and-so lubyism obligation to fulfill by virtue of yer inputs being such-an-such and yer outputs such-an-such )
19:36 adlai your suggestion is much more precise than mine!
19:36 adlai had I internalized that quote, I'd have had a more useful idea to discuss with him.
19:37 * asciilifeform ftr doesn't find alt-workfunctions very interesting subj in light of the apparent impossibility of ending up w/ anyffing other than a shitcoin as result of such experiments
19:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-19 11:32:19 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's pov is that the process which 'monetized' btc prolly cannot be repeated. (and various scammer's attempts to repeat it are red herrings)
19:37 adlai the source for my suggestion was, go ahead and laugh, an offhand comment by Luke-jr, which was horrendously imprecise, simply "vary pow deterministically instead of by fiat"
19:37 * asciilifeform not into baking shitcoins
19:39 adlai right, my interest in this was when Guy Corem wanted to draft an open letter to all his chinese miner friends during the kerfuffle about raising the blocksize, and it seemed that they were all gung-ho about turning bitcoin into an alt; so the idea was to at least make it a saner alt.
19:39 asciilifeform adlai: these alts ~dead, in case you missed.
19:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-15 13:46:39 asciilifeform: ( the third, 'btg', appears to be dead in practice , was unable to find any means of txing on it )
19:40 adlai I must admit that I'm disappointed he sold his company and left the business, although that was obviously his decision.
19:41 * adlai did get a chance to use one of the Spondoolies miners for a short while, although profits did not justify the time expense
19:41 * asciilifeform recently recycled some phorklulzcoinz
19:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-11 15:35:47 asciilifeform: bch recycling yield : 0.35992805 . ( will go in quarterly broadcast )
19:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-12 09:30:00 asciilifeform: meanwhile concluding yest's recycling operation : ty shinohai ! net yield from 'bsv' recycling into piggy == 0.09461753 . after all recycling ops, piggy nao == 34.07754558 , and this'll be in the next broadcast !
19:41 adlai fwiw, this is all that the local taxman cared about, during my interview
19:42 asciilifeform adlai: what didja do to end up with tax collectors making house calls ?!
19:42 * adlai got invited to "disclose wealth", along with ~everybody else who had been publicly involved with bitcoin
19:42 adlai allegedly, they simply requested a membership list from the Israeli Bitcoin Foundation
19:42 asciilifeform lol, apparently that's whatcha get for signing up for goxdations?
19:43 adlai although it must have been a slightly more complicated story, because a few members didn't get letters, and a few folks who did get letters, weren't members
19:44 adlai so I go to the meeting with all my history lessons in order, ready to educate them about the ideals of crypto-anarchy, hard money, etc
19:44 asciilifeform adlai: see also. tho the smart thing would've been not to sign up for karpelesisms
19:44 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-16 22:10:16 asciilifeform: as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
19:45 adlai and the dude basically says, "I have a degree in economics, we could talk about this stuff for hours... right now this interview will take ten minutes. do you dabble in altcoins? incl. forks of bitcoin? no? have a nice day."
19:45 asciilifeform adlai: was this in the desert shithole or didja move to anuther?
19:45 adlai still in Tel Aviv.
19:45 asciilifeform a ok
19:46 adlai moved apartments, though. now signatory to my own lease!
19:46 asciilifeform adlai: congrats
19:46 adlai thank you :-)
19:47 * adlai wonders whether to finish either academic degree, at Tel Aviv University
19:47 adlai I did not register for any classes during zoom semesters, so am on indefinite sabbatical now.
19:47 asciilifeform adlai: what was it, organik chem?
19:48 adlai started chemistry, completed ~half before switching to a dual major of mathematics and 'earth science', which is a lightweight version of physics with less emphasis on QM
19:48 asciilifeform geology?
19:49 adlai the students split into geology and meteorology
19:49 adlai and occasionally, astro
19:50 adlai although those who are interested in outer space from the beginning usually just go for the regular physics undergraduate degree
19:51 adlai honestly, I was not pleased with the new track, although I did not get a long impression of either department before the pandemic shut down the campus.
19:51 adlai it could just be that the mistake was registering for a dual major instead of picking one department.
19:52 adlai meanwhile, I have kept on reading mathematics and doing exercises from books, so this keeps my mind active, although it does not contribute much sunlight and social life.
19:53 punkman if you are doing all that, might as well get the degree, neh
19:53 * punkman also dropped out of math degree
19:54 punkman but mostly because I was bored of doing exercises
19:54 punkman and didn't have anything interesting to do with math
19:55 adlai I suspect it's a "sunk-cost fallacy", although there is the benefit of being physically present at a campus
19:56 adlai shouldn't something abstract be its own justification?
19:58 adlai I guess I have two practical excuses for studying useless mathematics; one, towards education, and the other, towards finance.
19:58 punkman don't really need justification if you enjoy it
19:59 adlai 'education' ~= by getting a wider view of mathematics, perhaps one can find better ways to teach the core ideas to future generations, so that ideas which seemed counter-intuitive to me, can be easier for them; e.g., I still don't have any useful amount of intuition for complex arithmetic, despite having learned its basics over a decade ago, and it being part of human mathematics for
19:59 adlai centuries already.
20:03 adlai 'finance' ~= someday I hope to describe the interaction between various trading strategies from a perspective similar to that of evolutionary biology
20:03 punkman one could argue that "math towards finance" is the root cause of many current day problems
20:05 adlai well, the quoted words are incredibly general, and if you define them however you like, then you can reach a strong position
20:05 adlai e.g. "math towards finance" could be interpreted as generating the chumpatron altcoins
20:06 adlai I could try to find a closer phrasing of my idea that remains brief and uses simple words, although it's probably better just to avoid overly misinterpretable statements.
20:08 adlai aaanyway, my next task is probably to read up a bit about bootloaders, and figure out why whatever I installed yesterday doesn't work on the old computer's mobo
20:09 signpost sorry for the spam, having an issue on this box where a drive is suddenly invisible, fouled boot earlier
20:11 adlai what bootloader do you recommend?
20:12 punkman my contempt for "open sores" busywork such as "figuring out why this piece of shit isn't working" has grown a lot. math exercises are a much more respectable pasttime.
20:13 adlai this is probably another overly-general question... such a recommendation is only useful if it's tailored to the non-working piece of shit
20:13 signpost punkman: seriously. this is a terrible use of my time.
20:16 punkman awaiting parts for a file server in the mail, trying to prepare psychologically for setting up the software I need
20:16 punkman anyone use something like freenas/unraid/snapraid?
20:17 signpost adlai: they're all shit, but lilo still works fine, least complicated of the available options.
20:17 signpost for efi you can build the kernel itself as an efi executable
20:17 signpost in either case you will find yourself wondering why you didn't go on a walk instead.
20:17 adlai well, EFI is what failed in the previous attempt.
20:18 adlai it could be that I didn't complete all the installation steps; it could be that the mobo is too old; maybe, both.
20:18 adlai worse, maybe I did all the necessary steps, but didn't tailor some flag for it to work on the old shit. blech.
20:19 punkman paid 190eur per 10tb drive, last time I bought drives it was around 100eur per 2-3tb
20:19 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform doesn't use efi anywhere. and still relies on iron ('3ware') raid in pretty much anyffin that has the requisite pci hole
20:19 signpost punkman: sounds about right
20:19 asciilifeform largely for this reason (life is too short to blow weeks on 'why doesn't boot')
20:20 adlai ehh, I'm far from weeks yet; a few days, I can live with.
20:22 asciilifeform adlai: short algo is, find sumthing it'll 'legacy'-boot off; stuff kernel in that. root part can be on whatever.
20:26 adlai I'm also wondering what to do with the dead hdd; it is tempting to pretend it has been eaten by odin, although it's almost certainly salvageable.
20:27 asciilifeform adlai: the traditional uses afaik are cremation or drink coasters, depending on whatcha had on it
20:27 * adlai still has, somewhere in junkyard, a collection of platters removed from first hdd of his that ever died; treated that one as a toy for dissection, because apparently they contained magnets! cool!
20:27 * asciilifeform still has those also
20:28 asciilifeform at one time that was the ~only practical place to get neodymium magnets
20:30 punkman recenlty learned that 65w TDP Intel CPU will actually eat 200w. nice scam.
20:30 adlai I never have more regret for attaining dvorak fluency, than when fucking around with bootloaders.
20:30 asciilifeform adlai: software remapping is lame. if yer a dvorakist, oughta own a proper iron dvorakizer
20:31 asciilifeform (for that matter any decent kbd with iron remapping)
20:31 adlai I don't think lenovo sells these, for laptops...
20:31 asciilifeform prolly not
20:31 adlai fwiw, I actually asked a typewriter shop if they could remap. dude was quite professional about replying, "gtfo"
20:31 asciilifeform it's got usb jack tho for proper kbd, neh
20:32 adlai spent 15min explaining entire process, estimating cost, and concluding that the answer was 'gtfo'
20:33 adlai he probably was just glad someone entered the shop to ask about the typewriters... I bet most of their business is selling printer ink.
20:33 asciilifeform lol what next, walk into a shoe shop to get new tyres ?
20:33 adlai shop window is 80% typewriters
20:34 adlai and the dude actually claimed that they are the only remaining shop that will not only sell them, but also do repairs if you are actually using them, rather than buying them as an antique display piece.
20:34 adlai only remaining shop in all of israel, not only tel aviv.
20:34 asciilifeform adlai: if electric typewriter, rewire it yerself. (if mechanical 'underwood', yer sol)
20:34 punkman << liking these mini-itx boards for compact server/workstation
20:35 asciilifeform punkman: i've not tried 'epic', they were the 1st amd w/ builtin fritz
20:35 adlai ehh, I can affort his cost estimate for desoldering, rearranging, realigning, and resoldering the type. it's more a question of whether I'd actually use a typewriter enough that it'd be a sane expenditure.
20:35 asciilifeform ( if you dun care about this, may as well install 'threadripper' and get 3x bang for $ )
20:36 adlai the reason he considered it a ludicrous expense is that the labor cost is much more than the cost of the typewriter.
20:37 adlai however, this is not 'fix broken machine', this is more similar to 'buy working machine, pay technician to install new language'
20:38 punkman asciilifeform: looking at local prices, threadripper costs more than these boards
20:39 asciilifeform punkman: i did say 'moar bang for $' not 'less $'
20:39 adlai I should really include in the live recovery images that I make in the future
20:39 adlai this is dvorak, swapping () and <>, and ctrl and caps
20:44 punkman asciilifeform: not sure you can run 250watt threadripper in mini-itx case
20:44 asciilifeform mno
20:45 asciilifeform they're all atx at least
20:45 asciilifeform different weight category.
20:48 punkman
20:49 punkman not even more bang for $
20:49 asciilifeform for single-thread, prolly not
~ 18 minutes ~
21:08 signpost going to part deedbot for a bit while I thump on this server some more.
21:08 signpost bbl
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