Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-12-25 | 2017-12-27 → ↓
03:37 mircea_popescu heh
~ 2 hours 21 minutes ~
05:58 mircea_popescu aand in other socialism-improved-college lulz, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/21/chicago-was-sexual-fantasy-of-us-professor-and-oxford-college-worker
~ 15 minutes ~
06:13 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-hippopotamus/ << Trilema - The Hippopotamus
~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~
07:40 BingoBoingo And I got to skip the awkward waiting between mandatory check out and check back in times at the hostel
07:50 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
07:50 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15301.0, vol: 13793.77734905 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 14997.0, vol: 57417.10285256 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15316.5, vol: 2684.04490121 | Volume-weighted last average: 15065.3519288
07:51 BingoBoingo Who could have predicted that bank holiday ends and crashing resumes!
~ 38 minutes ~
08:30 BingoBoingo !!up zen_
08:30 deedbot zen_ voiced for 30 minutes.
08:30 zen_ oh shit does that mean i have to chat that long?
08:30 BingoBoingo zen_: Quien es su papa y que se hace el?
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08:31 BingoBoingo zen_: No, it means you have that long to make a case for sticking around
08:31 BingoBoingo Or issue a plea for the chance to make your case again
08:32 zen_ i have a case of chocolate truffles
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08:32 zen_ will that suffice?
08:32 BingoBoingo El chocolate truffles, de donde es?
08:37 BingoBoingo Anyways with regards to your identity. Who are you, Where did you come from, How did you get here, and where to you imagine you are going?
08:37 BingoBoingo tick tock
08:37 BingoBoingo zen_: ^
08:39 BingoBoingo zen_: Also do you have a blog, or any links to work which might impress the republic?
08:42 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/as-it-turns-out-fireworks-do-not-photograph-well-navidad-in-the-land-of-tranquility/ << Bingo Blog - As It Turns Out Fireworks Do Not Photograph Well: Navidad In The Land Of Tranquility
~ 18 minutes ~
09:00 asciilifeform in other lulz, https://archive.is/Q0fc5 >> 'Thousands of government papers detailing some of the most controversial episodes in 20th-century British history have vanished after civil servants removed them from the country’s National Archives and then reported them as lost.'
~ 22 minutes ~
09:23 shinohai The whole series thus far is very entertaining.
09:23 shinohai Nice post BingoBoingo, only thing that offends my ears: "El edificios aca tiene huesos / Los edificios aca tienen huesos"
09:28 BingoBoingo Muchas gracias
09:29 BingoBoingo It appears my verb tense errors may be leaking bits of recent conversation context
09:32 BingoBoingo In other news, god bless Peru for not having real datacenters. Sounds like a very inconvenient place to be right now.
09:45 shinohai De nada .... what's happening in Peru, The Cuy is rising up?
09:47 BingoBoingo The current president issued a compasionate pardon allowing former president to die in a hospital rather than prison. The pantsuit fake news is alleging riots. Possibility of USG.blue color shennanigans.
09:57 shinohai Turns out that my supposition wasn't too far off, average Peruvian being about as intelligent as a cuy,
10:02 BingoBoingo En otra cosas http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/montevideo-eje-megaestafa-dinero-irregular.html
10:03 BingoBoingo And this is how they do the weather here http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/mal-asi-estara-diciembre-enero.html
~ 16 minutes ~
10:19 shinohai Does local TV have sexy weather girl BingoBoingo ?
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10:21 BingoBoingo I haven't actively watched tv since Houston
10:22 BingoBoingo lol http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/afap-cruzan-murro-exigen-discutir-sistema.html
~ 27 minutes ~
10:50 shinohai http://archive.is/LBEfk << Wonder if I can get a discount if I use Prime.
10:58 shinohai http://archive.is/5AOg5 << Run moar prb ... "I dont know how i got hacked, i use my laptop just for coldstorage, i turn it on and all my BTC are gone."
10:59 shinohai I don't think cold storage means what you think it means.
~ 19 minutes ~
11:18 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/other-assorted-trivia-on-navidad-in-uruguay/ << Bingo Blog - Other Assorted Trivia On Navidad In Uruguay
~ 23 minutes ~
11:42 BingoBoingo And from the Spades and Spades departmento https://i.redditmedia.com/AQIpkdNnuUHHIyzGjCoT27cNXadOJaQXbMtC5IvJECg.jpg?w=603&s=680f4783200e1fcaac02a3c15602d477
11:46 shinohai ^ top keke
11:48 BingoBoingo And pantsuit climatarasty neglects that... when heat fuels 100% humidity... Rain tends to happen dropping the humidity again https://archive.is/k7j1f
11:54 BingoBoingo And pantsuit WAPO defends assaults of sexual natures https://archive.is/LbRiA
~ 37 minutes ~
12:31 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
12:31 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15950.0, vol: 14013.56605120 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15816.0, vol: 59791.06830403 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16079.8, vol: 3298.34940167 | Volume-weighted last average: 15851.6396379
~ 21 minutes ~
12:52 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
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12:52 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 01:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758589 << i don't get what the problem is. write a patch that modifies the filebase into the shape you want it to be. what's the problem ?
~ 23 minutes ~
13:15 ben_vulpes and in other profitable mining strategies: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/business/energy-environment/germany-electricity-negative-prices.html
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13:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758644 << what's your daddy DO HIMSELF ?
13:16 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 13:30 BingoBoingo: zen_: Quien es su papa y que se hace el?
13:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758647 << better than average, let's put it that way.
13:17 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 13:32 zen_: i have a case of chocolate truffles
13:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758666 << speaking of, /me saw fox something-or-the-other over at whorehouse/steakhouse yest. they had a chick with an ass/waist/boob range that was iiincredible, and then had her act like a retarded 12yo playing pattycake and whatnot with the blondy they had paired her up with.
13:20 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 15:19 shinohai: Does local TV have sexy weather girl BingoBoingo ?
13:20 mircea_popescu sometimes lowest effort as typical of tv pays off, i guess.
13:20 BingoBoingo lol
13:20 shinohai xD
13:21 mircea_popescu better than the "professional" conceit. really, someone got to anchor tv for their non-cleavage skills ? what am i to believe next, that bridges are for sale ?
13:21 BingoBoingo Perhaps soon!
13:22 BingoBoingo Could anchor for non-cleavage acrobatics skills.
13:22 mircea_popescu if one's stuck pretending something stupid, better off make it include being stupid rather than pretend it's possible to include some kind of being smart that doesn't readily reduce to being smrt.
13:23 mircea_popescu "oh, i read cnn for the commentary, the boobs are INCIDENTAL. also, fleshhouse and playcunt, same deal. oh and those letters to the editor ? totes legit!"
13:23 mircea_popescu "the arrangement leaves me stranded when eg trying to understand why hillary lost, but that's ok, i'm not really meant to understand things."
13:25 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << the ~only way to fix a tree that has diverged is to regrind that portion of the divergence you intend to keep.
13:25 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 17:52 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
13:26 mircea_popescu the situation where a and b are pressed SEPARATELY is a fork.
13:26 mircea_popescu hence http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-24#1757999
13:26 a111 Logged on 2017-12-24 17:02 mircea_popescu: because it will cost someone's time to reconcile.
13:26 mircea_popescu so as the reconciler, you get to pick which of ~either~ a ~or~ b to count in your considered oppinion as the republican and which as the heretic.
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13:27 mircea_popescu because nothing less than this is at stake ; and do not make stray patches if you can help it.
13:27 hanbot in other puns, i discovered just this morning that "hippopotamus" is the latin horse + river, had missed out on the double pun fun of http://trilema.com/2017/the-hippopotamus/ 's last line. i stand in awe and horror of whomever ends up adnotating trilema
13:27 mircea_popescu ehehehe.
13:28 mircea_popescu hanbot no but see, THIS is what a classical education fucking is. not retarded fry making hobbit jokes because hey, the history according to fry started when he first got a bit of usg.corp fried chicken.
13:28 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: aye aye
~ 29 minutes ~
13:58 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
13:58 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15662.0, vol: 13962.96317052 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15563.0, vol: 60770.99895801 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15746.5, vol: 3400.44095335 | Volume-weighted last average: 15588.6777321
~ 19 minutes ~
14:17 danielpbarron mircea_popescu, got your package! ty
14:18 BingoBoingo danielpbarron: How's the frozen north?
14:18 danielpbarron i hate it
14:18 mircea_popescu o hey, nice.
14:20 danielpbarron photographed the unboxing to maybe post on blog when i figure this mp-wp thing out
14:20 mircea_popescu cool deal.
14:20 mircea_popescu didja run into trouble with it ? ask away
14:21 danielpbarron do you use apache(2) or nginx?
14:21 mircea_popescu should work equally well on both.
14:21 mircea_popescu atm some apache, but historically also nginx
14:21 danielpbarron i'm familiar with apache but i was trying out nginx at first for this
14:22 mircea_popescu might need mysql db installed separately if only comes with postgres or something
14:22 * mircea_popescu can't recall if mp-wp still supports psql or not
14:24 shinohai mp-wp worked equally well on apache and nginx for me. Never used another db besides mysql tho
14:38 BingoBoingo !!up seefelder
14:38 ben_vulpes !!up seefelder
14:38 deedbot seefelder voiced for 30 minutes.
14:38 deedbot seefelder voiced for 30 minutes.
14:38 BingoBoingo seefelder: Who is your daddy and what does he do himself?
14:39 seefelder that's private
14:39 BingoBoingo Well, who are you?
14:40 seefelder i am (NOT) a bot, reflecting human species
14:41 BingoBoingo That's not very informative, you've expended both your strikes. One last chance to make a good impression.
14:41 diana_coman seefelder, any blog where one can read what you reflected on so far?
14:41 seefelder only locally stored ... i am maybe paranoid
14:41 BingoBoingo !!down seefelder
14:42 diana_coman the dangerous reflections, who knew
14:42 phf would that be considered "a coy behavior"?
14:42 BingoBoingo Well, too coy for 2017
14:42 mircea_popescu phf it is, isn't it ?
14:43 mircea_popescu "avoidant" as per teh "attachment theory" nonsense that pantsuit "public policy" rests upon
14:43 diana_coman seefelder, better install and play eulora, it might give you something to say at least; see http://logs.minigame.bz/
14:46 BingoBoingo At the rate things are moving by mid 2018, the demand for openess to get a lend of voice is likely going to be self performed rectal ultrasound on mfc while reading logs
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14:48 mircea_popescu more practically, voice will be acquired via introduction by lord, ie, court presentation.
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14:48 mircea_popescu go make yer castles today, so noobs have a shot at life in 2018
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14:51 BingoBoingo Ah the lols to come from venue shopping n00bs
14:51 mircea_popescu why so hostile anyway bb ?
14:52 BingoBoingo Fireworks withdrawal
14:54 BingoBoingo One doesn not see the city in the splendid glow of burning metal salts in the sky without missing them.
14:56 mircea_popescu lel
14:58 BingoBoingo There's chicas everywhere so if that fell through no big deal... The concerted effort put for by the locals on the Latino Christmas show, I lack the patience and means to make that happen on a whim.
~ 24 minutes ~
15:22 shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758742 <<< Implying I don't already do this .....
15:22 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 19:46 BingoBoingo: At the rate things are moving by mid 2018, the demand for openess to get a lend of voice is likely going to be self performed rectal ultrasound on mfc while reading logs
15:29 * mircea_popescu just dumped a whole sack of coal on teh grill, teh girls happily cleanning up a grosse of pleurotus... if anyone needs me ima be at teh rancho bbqing.
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15:30 ben_vulpes !!up borstal
15:30 deedbot borstal voiced for 30 minutes.
15:31 ben_vulpes it's still 2017, borstal, what do you have to show for how you've lived your life?
15:31 borstal Right Banks, you bastard! I'm the daddy now, next time, I'll fucking kill ya!
15:31 * shinohai sighs
15:32 mod6 TMSR~: mod6.net is back up. Thanks.
15:34 ben_vulpes borstal: that's it?
15:35 borstal 1
15:36 borstal true (boolean)
15:36 diana_coman !!down borstal
15:37 ben_vulpes where's your holiday spirit, diana_coman
15:38 diana_coman ben_vulpes, he started sounding too much like mpi-insane
15:39 ben_vulpes #define true false
15:40 diana_coman ahahaha, would fit perfectly, yes
15:41 mod6 :D
~ 33 minutes ~
16:14 shinohai This is hilarious on thepiratebay website, on the donation footer says: "Bcash: LOL"
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16:22 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
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16:22 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 17:52 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
16:24 trinque further, pointless edits are antithetical to v-tronics
16:25 trinque "whole patch must be meaningful"
16:27 ben_vulpes it may be that tracking hashes at the file level isn't the right thing, because with vdiff as implemented i can trivially generate a vpatch b while working from a press of a that nevertheless still only depends on genesis if a leaves files untouched and b touches those untouched files only
16:29 diana_coman I ran a bit into that with eucrypt but I can't say I have some clear idea what would be a good solution there as it seems to me it's a matter of level considered i.e. file, folder, component, whole project, what
16:30 mircea_popescu trinque this is actually not altogether a meritless point.
16:31 ben_vulpes so far the solutions i see are a) mircea_popescu's "what tree, all patches must descend linearly or be reground into linearity" 2) allow for pressing heads that do not touch the same files
16:31 diana_coman onth "meaningful" there doesn't refer to code only and if new code in new files depends on existing code in untouched existing files, it may be meaningful nevertheless to update the readme file of the project for instance to say as much
16:31 mircea_popescu imo "tree" MUST be linear.
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16:32 mircea_popescu then if it is, trinque's point goes away because well... file hash as good as project hash for the linear bat.
16:36 ben_vulpes this still leaves me in the pickle of producing a vpatch from a press to a that won't actually descend linearly from a without touching a file, and adding "this line necessary to ensure this vpatch descends from a and not genesis"
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16:37 phf fwiw later approach has been a sop so far
16:39 ben_vulpes phf: which vpatch does this show up in?
16:40 phf ben_vulpes: official trb releases touch many files to tie them all into a single endpoint, e.g. `makefile' did that
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16:40 ben_vulpes aha k
16:40 phf http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles#L390 etc.
16:40 shinohai Just in time for the holidaaaaaaaaaaays fake bitcoin returns
16:41 shinohai http://archive.is/RCrU9
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16:42 ben_vulpes phf: this exposes another problem: in ideal vtronics it is an illegal operation to press to multiple leaves at the same tree level, which is the only way to have a codebase against which to create a makefiles-type patch that ties multiple patches together
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16:42 phf we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
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16:44 ben_vulpes also, single-file vpatches drives the system towards whole sourcetree hashing, otherwise they'll definitionally never depend on one another
16:44 phf right
16:45 danielpbarron !!balance
16:45 deedbot http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zdK8x/?raw=true
16:50 phf i've also played around with treating vpatch as a container. there's a function on btcbase for splitting all of the vpatches into separate objects, that each hold a single file changes (it's called something like explode-vpatch)
16:51 phf in which case your graph connections become mandatory transitions (rather than what it is now, where you can technically press two different vpatches against a non-overlapping sets of files)
16:52 phf i don't remember if there was any kind of interesting insight from the resulting graph, i should revisit it..
16:55 trinque danielpbarron: your boy MTW all set?
17:01 danielpbarron i think so, but it'd be nice to get a confirmation from him in here
17:02 danielpbarron relatedly, l0de expressed interest in running a "trilema infomercial" on his show. I told him he should bring it up in here, as i'm not sure what that should entail
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17:05 danielpbarron !!up l0de
17:05 deedbot l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
17:05 danielpbarron reg a key and you'll be able to voice yourself
17:05 l0de Yes hello, l0de here
17:05 l0de the funds have been remitted to my account
17:05 l0de all is well
17:06 danielpbarron sweet
17:06 l0de I suggest the most serene republic air some sort of introductory statement
17:06 l0de to get viewers of my show interested in their political goals
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17:09 danielpbarron would that be a pre-recorded audio clip/ video that we provide?
17:14 l0de Or you can have someone call in to read a statement
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17:15 l0de I would stress that my audience doesn't take anything seriously unless it's presented in a humorous context or it is presented as ruining someone's shit
17:15 l0de as they are internet neer-do-wells
17:17 danielpbarron perhaps we can get one of shinohai's cam whores to do it
17:19 shinohai Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD
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17:20 l0de oh yeah, video chat with a cam whore would work perfectly
17:20 l0de no nudity though, youtube is run by craven puritans
17:21 l0de someone with a thick romanian\cambodian accent reading a statement they obviously do not understand
17:22 danielpbarron wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
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17:22 l0de already lolling
17:22 trinque oh god.
17:24 trinque literatits only pls
17:26 trinque shinohai, you are the baron titsbare himself; got any camhos that can read?
17:26 shinohai hmmm danielpbarron .... sofiababy may be good choice (though not one of my stable)
17:38 shinohai !!up l0de
17:38 deedbot l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
17:41 l0de big up yourself
17:42 l0de booyakasha
17:50 phf in unrelated lulz, knuth shares mp approach to discipline:
17:50 phf If you have only the present report, not a tape, you will have to prepare files WEAVE.WEB and TANGLE.WEB by hand, typing them into the computer by following Appendices D and E. Then you have to simulate the behavior of TANGLE by converting TANGLE.WEB manually into TANGLE.PAS ; with a good text editor this takes about six hours.
17:59 mircea_popescu phf word.
18:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758784 << true.
18:01 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:40 phf: ben_vulpes: official trb releases touch many files to tie them all into a single endpoint, e.g. `makefile' did that
18:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << especially in the light of 1. move/rename 2. edit double-patch method this seems more and more like the right thing ; but then again what to do of regrinds ? regrind should ideally be "one patch out of many"
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18:02 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
18:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758800 << this was re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758556
18:04 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:02 danielpbarron: relatedly, l0de expressed interest in running a "trilema infomercial" on his show. I told him he should bring it up in here, as i'm not sure what that should entail
18:04 a111 Logged on 2017-12-25 19:34 mircea_popescu: and speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758548 anyone got any ideas of how to meaningfully support the SW hobbist ?
18:04 mircea_popescu my original thought was "can we do something like the tits drip but for sw enthusiasts instead ?" ; alf pointed out thatr well, carrierless issue.
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18:04 mircea_popescu if anyone's got an idea of how to construct the item though i'd much like to hear.
18:05 mircea_popescu basically something like "do x, get y" with a well chosen x.
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18:05 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758811 << how's danielpbarron 's radio voice ?
18:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:14 l0de: Or you can have someone call in to read a statement
18:05 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758815 << do it in castellan, maximum lulz.
18:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:19 shinohai: Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD
18:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless.
18:06 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:22 danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
18:07 mircea_popescu if we had a chinese girl that'd work, except, of course...
18:14 shinohai Yeah sofiababy left in huff, just noticed she had pm'd me to find her on skype but cba with that.
~ 44 minutes ~
18:58 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758841 << the real mega-puzzler is , what if anything are they capable of that is of any use whatsoever.
18:58 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 23:05 mircea_popescu: basically something like "do x, get y" with a well chosen x.
18:59 asciilifeform currently i know of nothing.
19:01 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758839 << asciilifeform did a bit of survey of the sw spectrum ( where he lives , but also elsewhere, via helpful public toilet ip-streamed receivers. ) plenty of digital ???? in'ere. incl. in places where none 'ought', Officially, to be. but 1) could just as easily be usg 2) it's all, definitionally, carriered signal, or asciilifeform would never have learned of it
19:01 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 23:04 mircea_popescu: my original thought was "can we do something like the tits drip but for sw enthusiasts instead ?" ; alf pointed out thatr well, carrierless issue.
19:01 asciilifeform but observation is that plenty of folx are, i suspect, already 'pirating'
19:01 asciilifeform the usg polizei prioritize the voice pirates, because they compete directly with the usg 'music' monopoly
19:02 asciilifeform the problem with voice pirates, any and all who have ever at any point lived, is that they are reddit.
19:02 asciilifeform i suspect that not 1 could follow, e.g., the apeloyee noise floor thread.
19:03 asciilifeform or even suspect why he oughta.
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19:05 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758834 << it is not clear to me why the current scheme ( leaving aside the idiocies of unix diff/patch, in particular the file moves thing ) is not satisfactory. i dun subscribe to the 'force beauty through mechanism' school of thought. it is the job of the patch author to make it behave acceptably in the target vtree, ~before~ releasing. and failures are of the author, not of the mechanicals.
19:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 23:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << especially in the light of 1. move/rename 2. edit double-patch method this seems more and more like the right thing ; but then again what to do of regrinds ? regrind should ideally be "one patch out of many"
19:05 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758809 << i gotta ask : why ?
19:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:06 l0de: to get viewers of my show interested in their political goals
19:06 asciilifeform let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods
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19:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758788 >> 'The founder also promised that in addition to the common practice of crediting BTC holders with equivalent balances of the new coin (B2X), they would also receive “a proportional number of Satoshi Nakamoto’s Bitcoins as a reward for their commitment to progress.”' << lol!!
19:08 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:41 shinohai: http://archive.is/RCrU9
19:09 shinohai Socialism at it's finest right here.
19:11 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758789 << ben_vulpes if you look at phf's patch tree graphical viewer, you will realize how asciilifeform solved this problem
19:11 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 ben_vulpes: phf: this exposes another problem: in ideal vtronics it is an illegal operation to press to multiple leaves at the same tree level, which is the only way to have a codebase against which to create a makefiles-type patch that ties multiple patches together
19:12 asciilifeform ( it was , naturally, by having , at least in the early history, the tree from which each of the 'sibling' patches was produced, on account of having produced'em ) .
19:12 asciilifeform but you can replicate same effect by pressing by the press rules, and then copying by hand.
19:13 asciilifeform which, in the whole picture, does not come close to topping the list of the hardest labours of a trb experimenter
19:14 asciilifeform a v user is expected to do ~almost all~ of his manipulations, via manual file management.
19:16 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758781 << this only oughta be done in 2 situations -- 'releases' , as discussed by mod6 et al ; and to avoid fuckuppy as seen in orig shiva patch, where there was a logical dependence , but not a vtronic one , b/w shiva-part1 and -part2
19:16 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:36 ben_vulpes: this still leaves me in the pickle of producing a vpatch from a press to a that won't actually descend linearly from a without touching a file, and adding "this line necessary to ensure this vpatch descends from a and not genesis"
19:17 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << this'd eat away substantially at the human-readability of the vpatch. which imho is a key property.
19:17 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
19:18 asciilifeform i should not need to look for a meta-document (with own sig, presumably) to know which group of patchons constitutes e.g. 'asciilifeform_dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing' .
19:19 asciilifeform i would like everybody who is itching to change the way v fundamentally works, to sit down and think about why we ain't using 'git' etc.
19:21 asciilifeform every time think of a possible change : think, does this take it in the direction of heathendom ? can it still make a patch like http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks , where it is hammer-in-your-face-obvious to the reader that every single fucking line does ?
19:22 asciilifeform and how big will be the vtron ? mine was <400 lines. imho this is worth something. and every feature added, comes at a cost.
19:22 asciilifeform *what every
19:23 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.
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19:23 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:31 mircea_popescu: imo "tree" MUST be linear.
19:25 asciilifeform ( i.e. it is already inescapably linear. asciilifeform half-expected that the kakoschism would produce a long-playing split of the trb universe, but neverhappened. not every possible thing, happens... )
19:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770 << this is not unlike poking out one of your eyes to save on eyeglasses cost.
19:26 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
19:26 asciilifeform i ~like~ that it is clear what parts of a whole were changed, and what -- left alone.
19:27 asciilifeform what is with this eagerness to pointlessly blunt the knife. i dunget it !
19:28 MTW back
19:28 MTW [16:55:48] <+trinque> danielpbarron: your boy MTW all set?
19:28 MTW yep
19:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ( trinque ? ) what ~concrete~ operation on trb tree did v-as-it-nao-exists keep you from easily carrying out ? i'd like to see ?
19:28 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...
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19:28 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 20:29 mircea_popescu just dumped a whole sack of coal on teh grill, teh girls happily cleanning up a grosse of pleurotus... if anyone needs me ima be at teh rancho bbqing.
19:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758743 << this historically worked CONSIDERABLY better than 'let's throw the reddit toilet into reverse gear and see what crawls out of the pipe'
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19:29 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 19:48 mircea_popescu: more practically, voice will be acquired via introduction by lord, ie, court presentation.
19:31 asciilifeform in other noose, zoolag with 'aggression' : walked from 484621 to 495973 in ~60 hrs.
19:32 asciilifeform which is roughly 4x the typical ( thing's been floundering since late august ) rate.
19:33 asciilifeform in other arcana, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-18448 .
19:34 asciilifeform ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ?
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19:36 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758681 << if there existed anything like a market in (reasonably recent) miners -- they'd already be installed at the plant, in place of those gigantic resistors . ( and iirc there was a mircea_popescu thread, involving e.g. fish ponds )
19:36 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 18:15 ben_vulpes: and in other profitable mining strategies: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/business/energy-environment/germany-electricity-negative-prices.html
19:37 * asciilifeform finally ate l0g.
19:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758859 << gotta get SOME filtering process in place though
19:44 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:03 asciilifeform: or even suspect why he oughta.
19:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box.
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19:45 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:06 asciilifeform: let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods
19:46 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also.
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19:46 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.
19:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758894 << portobello not pleurotus anyway.
19:48 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...
19:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway
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19:49 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:34 asciilifeform: ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ?
19:51 mircea_popescu anyway, maybe the correct approach re the l0de thing would be something like a simulcast interview. you do interviews l0de ?
19:51 mircea_popescu !!up l0de
19:51 deedbot l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
19:51 mircea_popescu !!key l0de
19:51 deedbot Not registered.
19:52 mircea_popescu if you register a key you can self-voice don't have to keep doing this voicing thing
20:01 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
20:02 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15627.96, vol: 14963.98271799 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15685.0, vol: 64040.84715043 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15811.4, vol: 3687.11992386 | Volume-weighted last average: 15680.3140104
20:05 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless. << Ah, gets BTC once returns years later and has less sense and more ideas
20:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 22:22 danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
20:05 mircea_popescu a sense of confort, the common woman's mindeater.
20:06 BingoBoingo Hence the spankings and vacuum cleaner tube
20:08 BingoBoingo Anyways thinking on the noob roughing up earlier, could be a side effect of tranquility overdose. Gotta torture betas.
20:08 mircea_popescu take it ezzy.
20:08 BingoBoingo as per http://trilema.com/2016/a-complete-theory-of-politics/
20:10 BingoBoingo But will see what esta semana brings
20:13 BingoBoingo Will probably start upping the blog frequency to let some more vemon out
20:23 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo ftr, .6 out of 1.3 is more like 45^
20:24 BingoBoingo Ah, I did the math the other way, Gracias
20:25 mircea_popescu anyway, personally launched lb+ "polvoras" ie fireworks here.
20:25 mircea_popescu damned thing was the size of a god damned depth charge
20:25 mircea_popescu 20bux in the chinoshop
20:33 BingoBoingo Nice
20:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758907 << the reason engineering is even possible , is that it is not necessary to open ~every~ box. sometimes can form quite accurate picture without spending whole life opening boxes, eating every rotten egg top to bottom etc
20:34 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:45 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box.
20:35 BingoBoingo Eh, give it 10 years and everything Republican will be inconel while the last USG trinkets come in Chinese potmetal
20:35 BingoBoingo Makes engineering physical things easier
20:37 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758913 << it's not the wasted 8kbit or whatnot ( though on e.g. fpga, that's real waste that you can take to the bank...) but the ~ugliness~
20:37 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway
20:37 asciilifeform ffa is, among other things, an experiment with minimizing theugly.
20:41 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature.
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20:41 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 00:46 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also.
20:42 trinque it again runs into the unix idiocy of "file", though, because file does sometimes mean module, sometimes means subcomponent of module.
20:44 trinque in either case, what does asciilifeform think of the ritual of "add comment to unrelated file to merge paths", not symptomatic of a problem?
20:45 asciilifeform trinque: i actually put a good bit of thought into the vtronic shape of ffa, while rewriting it ( current-day ffa , observe, is a rewrite, largely by hand, of the previous )
20:46 asciilifeform trinque: it is only a problem if people do it unthinkingly, without understanding when to, when not to, and why
20:46 trinque answer could be "trb was fucked from birth, let us not allow backflow into V"
20:46 asciilifeform ^
20:46 trinque so then, when things get so modular that you have frayed rope, author makes clean separation, as V has told him he has distinct items.
20:47 asciilifeform shiva series was imho great example of 'coarse error in pilotage' re this thread
20:48 * trinque notes that this comes up within days of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-21#1756072
20:48 a111 Logged on 2017-12-21 17:38 mircea_popescu: anyway, continuing the trinque discussion, it seems entirely unavoidable that trb will become 3 things : a wallet node, optimized for pumping out local signed tx ; a block node, optimized for keeping the blockchain, getting blocks, no mempool nonsense ; and a spy node, optimized to keeping track of the lies and nonsense flowing through the relay network (mempool, timing nodes, what have you).
20:48 asciilifeform asciilifeform introduced the schemetron 1st, and only 2nd the glue in trb, and they were not automagically v-linked
20:48 asciilifeform that was a case when 'put in a comment to align vtronics and semantics' would have been The Right Thing
20:49 trinque what is the meaning of the hashes in a vpatch?
20:49 trinque should someone pressing think he has a coherent whole after pressing any patch? if not why?
20:50 asciilifeform vpatch is meaningless without its ancestry
20:50 asciilifeform down to genesis.
20:51 asciilifeform and yes every patch oughta stand as a leaf, pressable to .
20:52 asciilifeform hence 'coarse error of pilotage' in re shiva
20:52 trinque only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both.
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20:53 asciilifeform ( btw is there an engl. equiv of that term ? i'd like to learn it )
20:53 trinque if not http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770
20:53 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
20:53 asciilifeform trinque: i'd go as far as to say that what you're observing is a defect in cpp, not v.
20:54 trinque to my mind the hash is currently putting too narrow a constraint on the context within which the current patch is to be applied, where we could broaden the context at no detrimental, and possibly beneficial cost
20:54 asciilifeform semantic linkage in prog lang oughta align with v. not vice versa.
20:54 trinque asciilifeform: is possible, but deserves to be in the logs
20:54 asciilifeform trinque: if you have concrete algo to align these -- i'm all ears
20:58 asciilifeform i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did
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20:59 * trinque tends many fires, but knows he owes a few posts
20:59 asciilifeform and especially this one, v that understands entity introductions / uses, semantic linkage aligned with v-flow ... i'd like to see it
21:01 asciilifeform picture a kind of 'multiverse ada', where you dun call foo(bar), but instead foo:somepatchid(bar:somepatchid) etc, explicitly conforming to 'multiversism'...
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21:03 asciilifeform or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree
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21:03 asciilifeform but this is reaching into the fantastic.
21:04 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754425 << worth linking again.
21:04 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 18:04 asciilifeform: we actually had the ast-diff thread, re phf's lisp diff lament.
21:04 asciilifeform aha, pertains
21:04 * trinque will put some pen to paper this evening
21:05 * asciilifeform much looks forward to reading
~ 41 minutes ~
21:46 shinohai From the twatter lulz mines: http://archive.is/vE3ud
~ 51 minutes ~
22:38 mircea_popescu lmao fucktard. a) the "pirate party" scam utterly fucking failed, how about addressing THAT ; b) kinda hard to have anyone ditch an empty ship, huh.
22:39 mircea_popescu "hey, aren't you worried your shitcoin will get altcoin'd in the near future ?" "no, i am dog and i don't understand anything. vote me!"
22:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758945 << explain what modularize means here ?
22:39 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 01:41 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature.
22:40 trinque means for example that db-interaction routines are in one file, network interactions in another.
22:41 mircea_popescu and how can one not modularize ?
22:42 trinque cannot without the 'add comment to files you needed' ritual
22:43 trinque I'm actually writing right now on how the hypertext thing relates
22:43 mircea_popescu let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let'
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22:43 mircea_popescu s hack it backwards in time".
22:43 mircea_popescu v doesn't permit this backwards in time ; and if you run in this situation where johnny needs an experts' sex change to become evvie, it's high fucking time you hand-rewrote your whole steaming pile of crap.
22:44 mircea_popescu now, is this enforcement a problem with v, is the proposition ? or is the aforegoing a misrepresentation of the discussion ?
22:45 trinque this is what I meant actually, by "can't modularize" within same walk of the v tree
22:45 trinque trb's database interactions are properly in a filesystem-implementing walk of graph of human knowledge
22:45 mircea_popescu well, i am kind of a fan of the whole "v doesn't permit you to lie to yourself about having supposedly designed what's utterly an ad-hoc item".
22:46 trinque network in a generic gossipd press path
22:46 mircea_popescu ie it takes a major regrind ?
22:46 trinque in that these are distinct items.
22:46 trinque these aren't "trb" except in shitworld
22:46 mircea_popescu there's nothing wrong either in principle or in practice with making a correct item as the genesis and then patching in various parts of trb.
22:46 mircea_popescu it's after all what diana_coman is doing for eulora.
22:47 mircea_popescu ie, i don't expect the trb cut as described to have a trb genesis necessariyl, or even probably.
22:48 asciilifeform if it dun have a trb genesis, proving to proverbial martian that it really does have classical 0.5.3 pedigree, goes from trivial to monumentallypainful
22:49 trinque anyhow lemme run at it again. you can't modularize because you have to fake work in a disparate part of the tree to merge
22:49 mircea_popescu so for instance, "genesis a proper db ; then patch in three different branches for the three different types of node envisaged" doesn't seem on the face problematic.
22:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i intend to prove no such thing to no such martian.
22:49 asciilifeform then why v at all
22:49 mircea_popescu under the authority of the republic ; not trying to enact selves out of the well threadbare wizard cloak of satoshi.
22:50 trinque asciilifeform: as a carving tool for the graph of knowledge
22:50 trinque doesn't mean you don't wholly remove sections and replace
22:50 mircea_popescu whosoever deeply cares about the historically irrelevant accident of windows-bitcoin-0.1 is more than welcome to diff his own sources of that against tmsr-bitcoin
22:51 trinque proper hypertext system (itself based upon v) provides the talmud commentary thing endlessly
22:51 mircea_popescu relevancy is dearly bought ; man wanted to still be in the genesis of 2017, man should have made proper db calls, proper logs, etc.
22:52 mircea_popescu man did not bother, which can only be rendered as "man told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off", well... the sentiment is mutual.
22:52 mircea_popescu there's no difference i can observe between indiancandy scratching at the door and satoshi scratching at the door. there's a way to get in -- getting in "on their own terms" is not on the table at all.
22:53 mircea_popescu as history ended up unfurling, "let's truncate hash to 10 chars or 20 chars depending" takes one from 2009 to some portion of 2018. better than nothing ; much less than could have been had, if only.
22:53 mircea_popescu a lesson for all future minds in there.
22:54 trinque back briefly on the frayed rope, what's harmful about naming an antecedent that you didn't edit, but require
22:54 mircea_popescu specifically "do a good job in preference of a bad job, last longer".
22:54 mircea_popescu trinque do you sign it ?
22:54 trinque sure, in the vpatch would be "I require this list of antecedent items, subset S of which I intend to change thus"
22:55 mircea_popescu if you signed it, then you read it. what matters what you edited ? moar of the same http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-05#1746388
22:55 a111 Logged on 2017-12-05 13:27 mircea_popescu: no but see, we use different terminology. i do not assign anything to "code written". the source of code, to my eyes, is he in the wot who has read it.
22:56 trinque right, so if we could do this, name unchanged antecedents that are required, could merge A's log patch and B's db patch in C's subsequent patch without having to manually edit A's or B's
22:56 trinque takes what constitutes context for the patch and puts it in the hand of the operator
22:56 mircea_popescu in preference of regrinding the item ?
22:56 trinque I don't see that regrinding solves it
22:57 mircea_popescu why not ?
22:57 trinque current V requires that a file actually got edited to be an antecedent, but C editing B's work does not mean he's discarding A's, and A regrinding his patch means editing something edited in C to get in
22:58 trinque because the hashes are hashes of touched files
22:58 mircea_popescu let's make a working model here.
22:59 mircea_popescu so suppose lord X makes tree A : A1->A2->A3->A4 are patches, delivering some kind of utility we don't care to specify.
22:59 mircea_popescu now suppose lord Y comes along, and similarily makes B : B1->B2->B3->B4.
23:00 mircea_popescu then along comes lord Z, and this lord Z observes that if he used B3 and instead of B4 installed C4 on the same top, he'd get a wholly different but entirely useful to him item. so he makes this.
23:00 mircea_popescu at this moment, if lord K observes that he could use the tree of X up to A2 and the tree of Y up to A3 ~together~ he could install D4 on this pile and similarily to Z produce a different still useful item.
23:01 mircea_popescu toghether so far ?
23:01 trinque following.
23:02 trinque how did he do that merge?
23:02 mircea_popescu now, the v doctrine as it stands right now, both on logs and actual precedent, at least as far as i understand it (but this is vacuous both as a representation and as a history, as most important questions haven't yet been seriously tested) -- is that Z is right to simply sign a patch on B-genesis ;
23:02 trinque I assume you mean A2 and B3
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23:02 mircea_popescu whereas K would be wrong to attempt same, and instead should regrind a whole new genesis, call it D, even if it is made up of the reunion of the As and Bs he uses.
23:02 mircea_popescu is this contentious ?
23:02 trinque why prefer this to being capable to merge?
23:03 mircea_popescu the burden where it belongs -- why permit merges ?
23:03 mircea_popescu what i mean by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758994 is specifically that i suspect the ONLY reason one might wish to merge is that one failed to design the item he's hacking.
23:03 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 03:43 mircea_popescu: let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let'
23:04 mircea_popescu is there a different reason ?
23:04 trinque hm. I may be learning something here, so bear with me.
23:05 trinque as I cannot put a definition to merge that is not "destroyed vertex on this graph, because it was by my lights wrong, and created a new one"
23:05 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759045 << correct, misspelled.
23:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 04:02 trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3
23:05 mircea_popescu trinque which is a valid thing to do, but NOT if one wishes to at the same timeeschew regrinding/genesising
23:05 mircea_popescu because why.
23:14 mircea_popescu and in unrelated lets-suck-our-own-cocks-we-utterly-deserve-it : consider that the whole l0de thing started because someone from here checked out a SPAMMED item. the fuctard/pantsuit "engineers" in name only in EVERY OTHER fucking channel ~think~ themselves all open-minded and intelligent and whatever, yet i can make a very obviously correct and banal prediction - they wouldn't have followed it, nor in any case escalated and
23:14 mircea_popescu so on. because "it's spam" and that means "it shouldn't be read" and they actually have a consensus on this, which they idiotically but universally misrepresent as somehow different from any other cultish behaviour, such as believing "racism" or "global warming" or "witchcraft" are things.
23:14 mircea_popescu somehow the voice model makes spam such a rarity in #trilema, people actually have the mental vigour to evaluate it!
23:15 trinque specifically what people have been doing when "regrinding" is adding comments to unrelated files and thus including their patch in the tree.
23:15 mircea_popescu whereas the pantsuit psychotic cleaving, where ~some kinds~ of spam are spam (ostensibly because they came from russian hackers as per their bayesian filters ?) whereas some other kinds of spam magicaloly "aren't spam" somehow, because pravda said it, or some "transgender" schmuck said it, or whatever.
23:16 mircea_popescu trinque there's an ambiguity here i'm possibly responsible for though not intended : to "regrind", ie to take a pile of patches and make them into one single patch ; as opposed to re-genesis, which is what happened with eg mpi.
23:21 trinque that is what I mean by a merge, and has the same result.
23:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758965 << this is exactly what's discussed in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758702 : only way to recover code in a heretic patch (ie, one you're not pressing upon) is to literally lift it and include it.
23:21 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 01:52 trinque: only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both.
23:21 a111 Logged on 2017-12-26 18:26 mircea_popescu: so as the reconciler, you get to pick which of ~either~ a ~or~ b to count in your considered oppinion as the republican and which as the heretic.
23:22 mircea_popescu if the patch tree goes a1->a2->a3/a3` your position is now to choose which of a3 or a3` counts, and which doesn't count. the discarded one may be scavenged for useful content, but it will never be a proper patch.
23:22 mircea_popescu because the tree will continue and NOT upon it.
23:24 mircea_popescu (this results in an immediate reimplementation of eg's linus torvald's linux codebase management, except properly and per protocol rather than ad-hoc and in a manner nobody can explain or meaningfully defend)
23:24 trinque yes, but the method of inclusion by diddling unrelated file is frivolous and less meaningful than explicitly denoting the relationship
23:24 mircea_popescu there's still a disconnect because i don't understand what the hell you mean.
23:24 trinque which is where I got to "concatenate whole cppwad and hash that" as that's your cpp program anyway.
23:25 ben_vulpes a3 and a3' can touch a disjoint set of files and never be depended upon by an a4 without mutating unrelated files to ensure dependency is properly codified.
23:26 mircea_popescu it doesn't matter which files they touch. a4 will build upon one of them, and then a5 on a4, and the unbuild upon one is left as a "fray" on the rope.
23:26 trinque "I edited the networking code and added better logging statements which requires the better logging code on fray, but I didn't edit the logging code."
23:27 mircea_popescu ok
23:27 ben_vulpes so then for a3' to be an a4, it must touch an unrelated file in a3, forever crufting up the codebase with v artifacts.
23:27 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes oh it finally dawned on me what this is about. sorry it takes so long.
23:27 * ben_vulpes snaps keyboard, retires, drowns children, shoots self
23:27 ben_vulpes great
23:28 ben_vulpes that only took a day
23:28 trinque poar poar keyboard
23:28 mircea_popescu so the idea is, you got up to a2, which consists of files F1... Fi ; now one patch call it a3 touches file Fj, and another patch call it a3` touches file Fk
23:28 mircea_popescu the ~only way to establish a lineage among these two so a3` is properly a4 is if the patch is spuriously modified to add a "hey v sucks" comment in Fj
23:29 trinque totally, if I have to edit something to name it as antecedent
23:29 mircea_popescu because otherwise, touching entirely different filesets, their precedence can not currently be established as per extant v
23:29 ben_vulpes aha
23:29 * ben_vulpes relinks http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758590 for everyone to reread
23:29 a111 Logged on 2017-12-25 22:56 ben_vulpes: the specifics of this case is that increase_aggression_levels touches *only* net.cpp and excise_hash_truncations touches a whole lotta stuff but *not* net.cpp
23:30 mircea_popescu hey, i spent most of the intervening day revelring! i have circumstrances!
23:30 mircea_popescu anyway, and the proposed fix for this is to actually add a hash for the whole filebase in each patch ?
23:30 ben_vulpes moreover i want to bring up another overlooked point which is that it is illegal to press a tree with these two patches side by side
23:30 * trinque is only recently not a walking solution of wine and nog
23:31 trinque mircea_popescu: yep, concatenate every single item in the path diff processed, use *that* hash as antecedent and that recalculated as expected.
23:32 mircea_popescu trinque kitten trying to get into the backseat so i can play with her tits ever so briefly kissed my new suit pant's leg, now i have a typically indicative white spot on it. tbh i knida like the look of it.
23:32 mircea_popescu trinque you need the file hashes per file though.
23:32 trinque loller
23:33 mircea_popescu how about a convention whereby all new genesises must contain a manifest.genesis file, which file will be constantly patched on each patchj, no exceptions, by adding a line which reads : "This is patch #x and the codebase hash is blabla".
↖ ↖
23:33 mircea_popescu this has the advantage that you can readily understand what any press is made of by looking in root.
23:33 ben_vulpes hash of the patched codebase including the patched manifest with hash of patched codebase in it?
23:33 trinque orobother
23:34 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes no, except .genesis :D
23:34 ben_vulpes well then it's out of band, unsigned
23:34 mircea_popescu no, it's signed. it simply is not used in the one spot where the codebase hash is calculated.
23:34 trinque manifest can be the patch header nearly as is
23:34 mircea_popescu trinque just about.
23:35 trinque "let it be known that there are these files, with these hashes" "I have changed these; their hashes are now ..."
23:35 mircea_popescu anyway, this'll need moar discussions, i'm not specifiying anything on dec 26th.
23:36 trinque and yet, I can see the entire thing from the other perspective still, that cpp is broken, trb itself not a single concept but a mud, etc
23:36 trinque aha
23:36 mircea_popescu trinque gotta force emergence of sanity through some sort of rational process.
23:36 mircea_popescu otherwise what, we rebuild africa, "sonny we sat here and marveled at this mud for 955 generations"
23:39 mircea_popescu phf asciilifeform diana_coman & others awake ^
23:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758974 << very much so ; and especially on a blog. there's utterly nothing wrong with being wrong, and discover it over time, especially if gracious about it. not like you sign the damned things, nor like the distinction isn't very fucking clear a a matter of public policy.
23:41 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 01:58 asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did
23:41 ben_vulpes it'll need codebasehashprepatch and codebasehashpostpatch i think
23:41 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes conceivably. why ?
23:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758978 << waaay ahead of the wake, wildman!
23:42 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 02:03 asciilifeform: or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree
23:42 mircea_popescu flying cities first.
23:43 ben_vulpes (it's an urbit, and presumably others crackpottery)
23:44 ben_vulpes how is a4 to indicate that it needs both a3 and a3' otherwise?
23:44 mircea_popescu no such both. a3` is to be a4, your a4 to be a5.
23:45 ben_vulpes putting the codebasehash in headers doesn't work then, as there is no 'file that will always be touched' that is a part of v to participate in the toposort
23:45 mircea_popescu genesis.manifest
↖
23:46 ben_vulpes okay, let's work it
23:47 ben_vulpes i'll have to doodle, cannot do this live
23:47 mircea_popescu np
23:47 trinque hm. the manifest also gives you a place to name blobs.
23:47 * trinque probably at a point to digest also
23:48 trinque but specifically, blobs not included. "and you will need the debian 2002 iso; go find"
23:49 trinque ^ cuntoo direly wants this
23:49 mircea_popescu wait what ?
23:50 * mircea_popescu envisaged the genesis.manifest as wholly mechanical item, just a patch-per-line count of patches, no space to adlib.
23:50 trinque my cuntoo installer script requires some what, 500mb of wads of other items that are not text, or useless.
23:51 mircea_popescu yeah.
23:51 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: okay, i geddit. do it as the first step of vdiff, so the mutation shows up
23:51 mircea_popescu right
23:51 ben_vulpes question then becomes how to get the patchtitle into .manifest
23:52 mircea_popescu title ?
23:52 trinque why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
↖
23:52 ben_vulpes oh you said "patch # and the codebase hash is..."
23:52 ben_vulpes comedy option: vpatch names are now the hash of the resulting codebase
23:52 mircea_popescu trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
↖
23:53 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: no need
23:53 trinque can have a tool to edit it sure, but then that's the file that's being edited no matter what else is edited, and there's a coherent history based primarily upon a list denoting what's considered a thing at time of patch
23:54 mircea_popescu trinque arbitrary-content manifests will become a mess of random.
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