Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-01-04 | 2018-01-06 → ↓
00:03 mircea_popescu in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
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~ 30 minutes ~
00:33 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> holy hell i lived to see the end of the 4th day of 2018 logs. << ikr!
00:41 mod6 ni ni :]
~ 26 minutes ~
01:07 mircea_popescu "doom is inevitable, BTW. mankind will die out, planet earth will be vaporized when Sol goes nova, if not sooner, and then Common Lisp will have to acknowledge defeat to the unwavering hostility of the universe. for those of us who plan to become immortal, this is a serious concern." <<< 1999 naggum was apparently planning for immortality ?
01:21 mircea_popescu https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
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~ 42 minutes ~
02:03 mircea_popescu other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
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02:03 mircea_popescu ey perceive it) blame all their (ample) shortcomings on the hulk barnacled while claiming all the (scant) benefit as own.
02:04 mircea_popescu these letters from a time before empire-of-idiots was formalized and understood as such are about as fascinating as a child's experience from before it understood any mechanics at all.
~ 16 minutes ~
02:21 mircea_popescu anyway, thinking about this whole "fsf was an attempt to *finally* bring about socialist utopia through a fettering of everyone's access to knowledge while open source was an attempt to nevermindthatjustkillM$already leading to java-for-browser because microsoft invented a c++ market etc" broad but really mostly correct summary, the one most striking aspect is that somehow the job of the modder (ie, guy that adds those snazzy
02:21 mircea_popescu chrome tailpipes on already made car/pc/whatever cxhassis) somehow ended up called "designer".
02:21 mircea_popescu motherfucking mother of isis, the act of arraying buttons together in a guy is no design!
~ 2 hours 27 minutes ~
04:49 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764875 <- answered & addressed -> http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/04/eucrypt-chapter-4-random-prime-number-generator/#comment-1031
04:49 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 04:41 mircea_popescu will take this to the comment section now.
04:53 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764721 <- so I gather the 80 cols habit won the day for code
04:53 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 03:07 mircea_popescu: so to have closure, i suppose http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763975 should read "80 cols plox what is this"
04:56 diana_coman which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
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~ 3 hours 6 minutes ~
08:03 asciilifeform diana_coman: not merely code, but everything that is in a vpatch
08:03 asciilifeform ought to be printable on a drum printer
08:03 asciilifeform reflowolade is for blogposts.
08:04 * asciilifeform would not insist that a vpatch ~itself~ oughta be 80col, as that would constrain the contents even further, to 76 or so
08:05 diana_coman I was just writing that! lol
08:05 diana_coman not that 4 characters make much difference in any case
08:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: as a side effect, you get an easily formatted code-box for blogging, as in ffa.
08:06 asciilifeform they make a difference, diana_coman , those 4 chars. just like if you suggested to a railroad to take 4cm from the rail gauge.
08:07 diana_coman ah, should have been precise there: they don't make a difference for me at this stage; I can stick to 80 just as I can stick to 76 really
08:07 asciilifeform 'this railroad had this gauge since 1830 and what is this'
08:07 asciilifeform aa ok
08:08 * diana_coman purposefully gets used to all sorts of different things, makes it easy to switch between them really
08:09 diana_coman I suppose I'm not much of a train basically
08:11 asciilifeform i suspect the key difference b/w 'x columns or bust' folx and the others, is the habit of using printer
08:12 asciilifeform ( and to lesser extent, vertical display )
08:12 diana_coman I suspect it's more the investment in the habit really; printer might be *one form* but it doesn't convince me much in itself
08:13 asciilifeform back when i had a horizontal display, most of the time i had it column-split and emacs 'followmode' to flow proggy between them
08:13 asciilifeform diana_coman: printer forces max cols.
08:14 asciilifeform there's no way around it. ( some people resort to printing 90 degrees to get more cols.
08:14 asciilifeform )
08:14 diana_coman so basically columns newspaper style, as I was saying yesterday, yes; inevitably, if 80 cols, ofc
08:15 diana_coman anyways, it's settled, 80cols it will have to be
08:15 asciilifeform recall the famous 'lions book', was printed in this style
08:17 diana_coman as a side note, that's precisely why I did *not* adopt emacs in the end despite liking it quite a lot when met it at uni: it was VERY useful indeed but the sort of useful that was too close to addictive for my liking essentially
08:17 diana_coman that might be my brand of weird only though
08:20 asciilifeform not errybody uses emacs
08:20 asciilifeform ( though if you intend to do any commonlisp, you're more or less doomed to either use it, or emulate it )
08:21 diana_coman as long as it doesn't basically cripple me to everything else, I can use it, sure
08:22 asciilifeform not sure how it'd cripple , aside from cultivating the 'unreasonable' expectation of sanity (i.e. extensibility) of editor
08:23 asciilifeform in the same sense as e.g. mircea_popescu is 'crippled from' eating at wallmart .
08:24 diana_coman no, in the sense of "80 cols or NOTHING ELSE"; same thing there: can work with emacs or NOTHING ELSE
08:25 * diana_coman is not pushing anything nor bashing emacs
08:25 asciilifeform the only item i use that has no equiv whatsoever outside of emacsland, is slime
08:26 asciilifeform ( it has a superior grandfather, the actual bolix lispm. but no equiv on pc. )
08:27 * asciilifeform admits that he does not particularly ~like~ emacs. it simply ended up a schelling point, like linux. but suffers from same type of problems.
08:30 asciilifeform and i 'can work' with other editor, just as can write with goose feather and ink also, and can saw with hand saw instead of electric saw... so long as it is understood that everything will take 50x longer.
08:31 asciilifeform and given the choice, will take ballpoint pen over feather, and emacs over 'ed'
08:33 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764878 << aaah, the prb of emacs ! it lives on, yes
08:33 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 05:03 mircea_popescu: in other antiqua entomologica arcana, https://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html
08:33 asciilifeform providing 'valuable pheatures' like variable-width font..
08:34 diana_coman are you saying that 50x improvement is really due totally to emacs being to any other editor what pen is over feather? because otherwise Nx longer is exactly "nothing else" when N is large enough
08:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item
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08:34 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
08:35 asciilifeform diana_coman: indeed it is.
08:36 asciilifeform (not 'emacs' per se, but e.g. slime. you couldn't pay me to write lisp without slime or equivalent, just as not even gulag inmates will dig with hands instead of spade )
08:36 diana_coman well, I never used slime so I can't comment
08:36 asciilifeform the meaningless shitwork ratio, lacking slime, moves from 0% to ~100%
08:37 diana_coman note though that we were talking emacs, not slime; enfin
08:37 asciilifeform slime lives in emacs.
08:38 diana_coman yes, so you need emacs because slime; that sounds like a lot of snails already,lol
08:38 asciilifeform emacs per se is nothing to write home about, it is full of gnarly archaicisms , and the default keymapping will, as naggum described, destroy your hands , unless you fix it
08:39 asciilifeform ( it was born on keyboards which no longer exist )
08:39 asciilifeform but then again why the everlivingfuck would i run with defaults on a ~configurable~ tool that i use 14+ hr/day )
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08:40 diana_coman aha; so no argument in fact; basically you say "I need emacs for what I'm doing because slime"; I say "so far I'm happily not cornered by anything into using emacs"
08:40 asciilifeform >> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836 << oblig
08:41 asciilifeform diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
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08:44 asciilifeform diana_coman: speaking of nonemacsism, adacore's special-purpose editor, 'gps', is imho pretty decent
08:44 asciilifeform ( i recommend to nonemacsists, to try it )
08:45 diana_coman asciilifeform, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836#comment-18597
08:45 asciilifeform aha!
08:46 diana_coman I'll have a look at gps then
08:46 asciilifeform it comes with the binariolade gnat. if you're using gcc gnat, will have to compile it, a little bit gnarly.
~ 21 minutes ~
09:08 shinohai "GPS provides several levels of customization, from simple preference dialogs to powerful scripting capability through the Python language" <<< why?
09:08 shinohai Seems another scripting language would have been chosen, but meh.
09:15 asciilifeform shinohai: which ?
09:16 shinohai lisp works as a scripting language, neh
09:17 asciilifeform i dun particularly relish pythonism, but proliferation of 'i wrote it on a napkin, on a train, while drunk' script langs, incl. elisp-style dynamicscope abortions, is imho harmful
09:17 shinohai point
09:19 asciilifeform that being said, gprbuild ( what ffa uses instead of gnumake ) seems to make very effective use of a kind of interpreted subset of ada
09:20 asciilifeform could , in principle, be expanded into a scripting lang.
~ 21 minutes ~
09:41 asciilifeform !~ticker --market all
09:41 jhvh1 asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16076.28, vol: 15424.74126164 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16047.0, vol: 47384.63064283 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16000.0, vol: 3644.58814136 | Volume-weighted last average: 16051.2185715
09:53 BingoBoingo And the crashing resumes
09:55 BingoBoingo And the registrations are starting to trickle in. I R SRS BSNS NAO!
09:55 BingoBoingo Except no "nao" doesn't read as the same thing it did pre Uruguay
09:56 BingoBoingo Dammit, I'm not going to be able to mispell now for creative effect anymore am I
~ 20 minutes ~
10:16 asciilifeform wainot?
10:18 BingoBoingo Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
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10:19 asciilifeform in other noose,
10:19 asciilifeform !#s harold martin
10:19 a111 3 results for "harold martin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=harold%20martin
10:19 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
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10:20 asciilifeform ( spoiler : best part is re how evidence remains seekrit, plus the usual claptran in re how e.g. usg not obligated to do anything in return for the confession )
10:21 asciilifeform *claptrap
10:25 asciilifeform ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557756 thread )
10:25 a111 Logged on 2016-10-21 14:02 asciilifeform: funny how they put the 'cloud storage' in the bail denial affidavit, but have not yet even bothered to parallelconstruct some reason ~other than it~ for how the d00d could have been caught.
10:29 mod6 mornin
10:29 asciilifeform ohai mod6
10:30 mod6 how goes today?
10:32 asciilifeform slowly.
10:32 asciilifeform and you , mod6 ?
10:39 mod6 not bad! i implemented the pill to calculate the press path from a given leaf. seems to be working pretty well. i ran all my automated tests, passed 50/54 without incident. Four of the tests are pretty complex test cases where we basically yank one of the vpatches out of the middle of a vtree, then test to ensure that we avoid that where required.
10:40 mod6 Since now the press path is calculated slightly different now than blindly shoveling in the flow, those tests needed some adjustments on their assertions of expected output.
10:40 asciilifeform aa neato
10:40 mod6 I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
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10:41 asciilifeform asciilifeform's main pheature-request for mod6 is to print meaningful eggogs, rather than silent 'new jersey' failure
10:41 asciilifeform e.g. 'beheaded chain found: [list of patches]' when there is a patch with non-null parentage but parent is absent
10:41 asciilifeform and 'wild chain found: ...' when there's a missing seal
10:42 asciilifeform rather than simply ignoring inputs.
10:42 mod6 yeah, i actually did add a 'check_required' routine that is semi-related to this. for instance, when that error happened, it was because some guy didn't have `sha512sum'. so the check_required subroutine will now run first, and check to ensure that a list of system biniaries are available before anything happens. and if not, exits.
10:42 asciilifeform right, oughta have similar for gpg
10:42 mod6 There are better error messages, or averting a silent fail that will also help here. I haven't gotten that far on that part yet.
10:42 asciilifeform ( if an external proggy is made use of -- oughta check that it exists )
10:43 mod6 wanna see the experimental patch i'm workin on?
10:43 asciilifeform sure
10:44 mod6 http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aj5jZ/?raw=true << this is an experimental only thing!!
10:44 asciilifeform aaa this is the vtron
10:44 asciilifeform neato.
10:45 * asciilifeform is quite out of practice in reading perl
10:45 mod6 the 'print_press_path' subroutine is, for the time, for debugging only.
10:46 shinohai I seem to be patched in and basic functions working, so sing out when ready to test mod6 o7
10:46 asciilifeform ty for making and maintaining this vtron, mod6 . it is a good thing.
10:46 mod6 no prob. thanks asciilifeform
10:47 mod6 so goal is to fix this problem. then carry on and document all the rules the thing has in place. this way, others can try to build in those rules we've discussed in here to their vtrons without having to fish them all out of 2 years of logs.
10:48 mod6 that's later tho. first, just gotta get this fixed, then we can move on to greater things.
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
12:22 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << hah, i read it and didn't notice that it was with fare. there's more fare interactions there of similar nature.
12:22 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 06:21 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.
12:23 * asciilifeform at one time tried to read fare's blog, quickly barfed, d00d has a multitude of socialist-flavoured cockroaches in his crankcase
12:34 ben_vulpes mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c?
12:34 ben_vulpes it is a minor thing that i occasionally trip over
12:34 asciilifeform ideally a vtron oughta unhappen, to the extent possible, everything it did to the world, if it gets a ctrl-c
12:35 asciilifeform but other unixland utils do not do this, so it is possibly a bridge too far to expect it of this one
12:37 ben_vulpes ah k nm then
12:37 asciilifeform nah the tmp thing definitely ought to clean up
12:37 asciilifeform or at the very least not ever use the same absolute tmp path
12:37 ben_vulpes right, i shelled out to mktmpdir in mine
12:37 asciilifeform ( have a gensym. there is no excuse ever to be hosed by a previous unsuccessful run. )
12:40 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764971 << porque no?? It isn't like it didn't mean that BEFORE you learned it. Plus, now you got extra layers: "I R SRS BSNS, ANAL!1!"
12:40 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 15:18 BingoBoingo: Because in Protuguese "Nao" means No, which means yes, which means anal
12:50 lobbes In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
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12:53 asciilifeform !!up pehbot
12:53 deedbot pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
12:53 asciilifeform !A .1.0*#
12:53 pehbot asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
12:53 asciilifeform ^ bug. shame on everybody, for not noticing.
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12:53 asciilifeform there's a stray MustNotZero(Stack(SP)); in ffa_calc.
12:54 asciilifeform ( fixed in ch6 . )
12:55 asciilifeform and it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day.
12:56 asciilifeform >> http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt#L63 << concretely.
12:58 * asciilifeform begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5...
12:59 asciilifeform !A .0.1*#
12:59 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
12:59 asciilifeform ^ see.
13:00 asciilifeform ( obviously was a paste artifact, from '%' case )
13:00 asciilifeform !A .0.0*#
13:00 pehbot asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
13:01 asciilifeform Stack(SP) , given as folx haven't been reading attentively, is top of stack.
13:01 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: still working on my solution to ch4
13:02 asciilifeform and yes this is what asciilifeform does when he wakes up : rereads ffa. all of it.
13:02 ben_vulpes so will not be reading ch5 yet
13:02 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: questions/comments ? does ch4 make sense to you ?
13:03 ben_vulpes it does, this is my first encounter with a stack machine tho so thinking is proceeding slowly
13:03 asciilifeform oh hm
13:04 asciilifeform for some reason i thought that ben_vulpes had done hard time on jvm
13:04 asciilifeform and would have seen stackmachine
13:04 ben_vulpes only the artsy fartsy guicrap
13:04 asciilifeform lolk
13:04 asciilifeform ever owned a rpn calc , ben_vulpes ?
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13:05 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> mod6: while you're in there can you get your vtron to cleanup its tmp gnupg directory when it catches a ctrl-c? << if you CTRL+C the thing, it really can't get rid of it. you're expected to clean this up on your own so the vtron doesn't remove something it wasn't suppoesd to.
13:06 asciilifeform mod6: the temp dir is primo example of an always-ok-to-kill item. i.e. one which the vtron run itself created and would never otherwise exist
13:06 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: have not, believe it or not
13:06 mod6 otherwise, my vtron handles the creation and deletion of that .gnupgtmp dir on its own.
13:06 asciilifeform esp if it gets in the way of a subsequent run
13:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: odd! are they so rare today ?
13:07 mod6 im pretty sure we all had this discussion once upon a time, and it's only doing now, what we agreed to do before. I can go and dig for that.
13:07 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: not rare, was just never beaten with one
13:08 asciilifeform mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
13:08 ben_vulpes had to go beat self with everything i was never beaten with starting in my early twenties when the republic kicked off
13:09 ben_vulpes mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-05#1316693 is what i dig up on the topic
13:09 a111 Logged on 2015-11-05 02:08 asciilifeform: -- a unique thing that never was and never will be again.
13:09 asciilifeform aha
13:10 ben_vulpes mod6: i don't actually recall any agreement on the topic, you did yours one way and i another, and i cannot recall how asciilifeform's original handled this
13:12 asciilifeform well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
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13:12 asciilifeform ... used 'tempfile' py lib
13:13 asciilifeform gpgtmp = tempfile.mkdtemp()
13:13 asciilifeform .... shutil.rmtree(gpgtmp)
13:13 asciilifeform did not attempt to catch ctrl-c or any other signal.
13:14 asciilifeform however the external 'tempfile' item, made gensymtronic dirs. so this never became a headache.
13:14 asciilifeform https://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html << gory details.
13:15 asciilifeform let's quote ftr : 'Creates a temporary directory in the most secure manner possible. There are no race conditions in the directory’s creation. The directory is readable, writable, and searchable only by the creating user ID. The user of mkdtemp() is responsible for deleting the temporary directory and its contents when done with it.'
13:24 ben_vulpes ah over is the key!
13:24 mod6 im getting pulled off here... i'ma try to circle back to this but...
13:24 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: an aborted run of vtron should not be able to put a caltrop for subsequent run to die on. this is imho elementary.
13:25 mod6 make_tmpdir($tdir);
13:25 mod6 main();
13:25 mod6 remove_tmpdir($tdir);
13:25 mod6 that's basically what happens ^
13:25 asciilifeform mod6: what's make_tmpdir made of ?
13:25 mod6 and if you ^C the thing mid-way through the execution, you'll never hit remove_tmpdir
13:26 mod6 now, i can add an attempt to remove the thing before we even begin main(), but i thought we had discussed this. i'll have to dig up the old thread.
13:26 mod6 i don't have a chance right this moment to do that, will look tho when i can
13:26 asciilifeform mod6: what actually ends up in $tdir ?
13:27 mod6 sub make_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `mkdir -p $dir && chmod 0700 $dir` if !-d $dir or die "$dir exists! $!";
13:27 mod6 }
13:27 mod6 sub remove_tmpdir { my ($dir) = @_; `rm -rf $dir` if -d $dir;
13:27 mod6 }
13:27 asciilifeform right but what's in $tdir
13:27 mod6 the keyring that gpg needs to run
13:27 asciilifeform how do you create the ~name~ of the dir
13:28 mod6 my $tdir = get_homedir() . "/.gnupgtmp";
13:28 asciilifeform umm
13:28 asciilifeform no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
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13:28 asciilifeform second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on.
13:28 mod6 brb
13:29 asciilifeform you can fix the second by erasing at the beginning of a run. but not the first.
13:29 asciilifeform temp dir paths gotta be gensyms.
13:29 asciilifeform ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )
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13:30 ben_vulpes is mktemp widely installed enough to be used here?
13:30 asciilifeform it's a gnu coreutil. so theoretically yes
13:31 asciilifeform conceivably, like everything else, it is absent ~somewhere~ ( ... crapple ? )
13:32 ben_vulpes yeah but fuck them in particular
13:32 ben_vulpes iphones apparently vulnerable to SPECTRE too, hilariously
13:32 ben_vulpes such sandbox very secure
13:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ~all archs with instruction-reordering and cache, are
13:34 asciilifeform semantics-changing optimization belongs in ~compiler~ (if even there), not in iron.
13:34 asciilifeform a la vliw.
13:34 asciilifeform bbbut noooo, gotta reorder, because Only A Terorrist Would expect microshit to write sane compiler...
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13:37 asciilifeform ( on vliw, there was a pipeline, but proggy was expected to fill it 'by hand' . a kind of 'stick shift'. if a sub-instr stepped on another's toes, it was a eggog, like div0 is on x86 , abort . )
13:40 asciilifeform on the other hand, pipeline idea per se was a mistake; same kind of failure to invent dataflowism as dma
13:41 asciilifeform !#s dma
13:41 a111 99 results for "dma", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dma
13:41 asciilifeform ^ see also.
13:42 ben_vulpes it all strikes me as so very silly on the surface but i have a weird lens of not having thought about any of the related shit until ~2013 and even then only through republican eyes
13:43 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: expand ?
13:45 ben_vulpes i've never been burdened with the "This Is How Things Are" of the c-machine
13:45 asciilifeform ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
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13:46 ben_vulpes i only started thinking about compute because of bitcoin, and shortly after i started thinking about it in earnest (like maybe a month, six weeks something like that) you showed up in #b-a and /even at that point/ were talking about eg trinary circuits and computing fabric
13:47 ben_vulpes then at that point the historical perspective was obviously necessary and i've simply never seen modern arch's as anything other than complexity madness in search of itty bitty performance gains on systems nobody can actually reason about
13:48 mircea_popescu in other lulz from the road, "nombre ?" "credible" "apellido ?" "justin".
13:48 asciilifeform credible?!
13:48 * asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead
13:49 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: is there some way of doing iteration with the opcodes from ch4 ?
13:49 mircea_popescu ad hoc pseudonym! no good ?
13:49 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you tell me
13:51 ben_vulpes hey man i only figured out how conditionals worked today
13:51 asciilifeform so ben_vulpes do you see a jump ?
13:51 asciilifeform or for that matter any record kept of old instructions , that the thing could jump to ?
13:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764893 << yeah tis a problem ;/
13:52 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 09:56 diana_coman: which is perfectly fine with me for code; it's still grating for comments and I'm not sure how this will resolve, it sort of pushes comments out of code (to a place where one can read them as text not as code-which-they-are-not)
13:52 mircea_popescu seems atm we uncovered the deep limit on literate code.
13:52 mircea_popescu code and comments do not, actually mix ; the fault is entirely of bad but entrenched habits of code writers.
13:52 asciilifeform i'ma disagree that the use of paper is 'bad habit'
13:52 asciilifeform it differentiates man from monkey.
13:53 mircea_popescu "we are incapable to reflow and here's a magic number instead" differentiates monkey from man
13:53 mircea_popescu not the other way round.
13:53 asciilifeform code. does. not. reflow.
13:54 asciilifeform ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
↖
13:54 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: yeah i don't
13:54 ben_vulpes the mega-clue is "any seven numbers"
13:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if true, this is == "code is not worth either writing or reading"
13:55 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: aha
13:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764949
13:55 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'best thing is never to have programmed at all' or how did socrates put it.
13:55 ben_vulpes want to corroborate what appear to be facts before plowing down a possibly retarded path though
13:55 mircea_popescu anyway, there's no possible solution here ; i expect the defacto result will be that patches will consist of code, wrapped 80, including 0 comments, plus blogposts, consisting of commentary, with some haphazard code reference.
13:56 mircea_popescu this is a sad state of affairs, as it limits v utility drastically ; neverthless -- commentary will be ok, long predated either v or code. code is more fragile.
13:56 mircea_popescu needs halp.
13:56 asciilifeform i'ma carry right on wrapping comments to 80, like father and grandfather did and like the gods intended.
13:56 asciilifeform and anyone who dunlike it , can jump in a lake.
13:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and write too little of them and too sparse and lose out to the other variant in the end.
13:57 mircea_popescu there's a reason your father+grandfather haven't amounted to as much of a fart as a workable os.
13:57 asciilifeform in the end man can lose out to cockroaches also.
13:57 mircea_popescu not even good. vaguely workable.
13:57 mircea_popescu in this case, atavism just loses out.
13:57 asciilifeform 'do from cause, not purpose' necessarily includes not giving rat's arse re 'what will lose out to one day when sun burns out'
13:57 mircea_popescu certainly.
13:58 asciilifeform so far the folx who code on paper, wrote ffa, and the folx who wrote on display -- wrote what.
13:58 mircea_popescu except that day will be rather sooner than that.
13:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway you turn it, the concept of magic number's not defensible.
13:58 asciilifeform 'мы вас похороним' !11 (tm)(r)
13:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: rails -- have gauge. and spacetime itself appears to come with 'magic #s'.
13:59 asciilifeform like it , or not.
13:59 asciilifeform i won't disagree with abolishing'em when ~possible~ cleanly
13:59 mircea_popescu hey, all i do is predict, i dun like or dislike.
13:59 mod6 asciilifeform picture scene from film 'idiocracy', where hero gets 'his name', 'Not Sure', tattooed on forehead << his arm, but yeah, great movie.
13:59 asciilifeform but 'throw out yer printer' won't fly.
14:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
↖
14:00 mircea_popescu how about you know, fixing your printer so it works ?
14:00 asciilifeform so it can create paper of arbitrary width ?!
14:01 mircea_popescu if that's what it actually takes, yes.
14:01 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu makes one -- i'll buy
14:01 shinohai !!up gabriel_laddel
14:01 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
14:01 mircea_popescu in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
↖
14:01 mircea_popescu until this is resolved, the perennial results will repeat.
14:01 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform should I even bother stopping in then?
14:02 mircea_popescu it's actually SO BAD that people go re-implement the same damned X thing for the 90th time as a substitute of commentary ; and nobody looking understands wtf that is.
14:02 gabriel_laddel and can I call M a NOT-LISPM?
14:02 mod6 <+asciilifeform> no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself ) << yeah, concurrent runs of my vtron are a no-go.
14:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i can't at all disagree , re comments
14:02 asciilifeform and overall culture of illiteracy
14:02 mod6 <+asciilifeform> second , as in the case discussed in the thread, if a run aborts, it creates a mine for next run to step on. << try to realize that this is on-purpose. im certain that we've had this discussion before and what exists is the outcome of that discussion.
14:03 mircea_popescu this is the problem. you can't disagree with my theory and i have no practical solution for your pain.
14:03 asciilifeform sorta why i favour the structure-editor and store-EVERYTHING-as-sexprs approach.
14:03 asciilifeform it's the gordian cut.
14:03 mircea_popescu as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
14:03 asciilifeform it does however mean letting finally go of the vt100.
14:03 asciilifeform and of 'plain text' idea.
14:03 mircea_popescu sexprs for everything might work
14:04 asciilifeform it's the only thing that works.
14:04 mircea_popescu and there is no such thing as fucking "plain text"
14:04 asciilifeform FINALLY
14:04 ben_vulpes mod6: you gotta quote chapter and verse from the logs to support "outcome of that discussion".
14:04 mod6 i know, i haven't had a chance to look yet.
14:04 mod6 too busy.
14:05 mod6 anyway, im fine with changing whatever, just as long as we all agree.
14:05 ben_vulpes logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory.
14:05 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-25#1353298 << e.g.
14:05 a111 Logged on 2015-12-25 23:10 asciilifeform: because, again, the whole 'plain text' jwzism and the attendant retardation. somehow 'lines' are a thing.
14:05 mod6 and the details of what the change is to do are clear so I can implement them as such.
14:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform which part of trilema is plaintext ? the part where it says fuckyoui or the part where it says fuckyou((norly)) ?
14:06 ben_vulpes mod6: make a disposable tempdir like stans original and my port. i don't know whence this 'agree', stan's original was clear enough.
14:06 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> logs save us from the "but i thought we agreed" floppy meatsack memory. << i feel ya. if you wanna help me dig, that'd be awesome.
14:06 mircea_popescu anyway bbs
14:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ~none of it, it's html, neh
14:06 mod6 my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
↖
14:07 mod6 i hope you're not trying to say that im simply making this up
14:07 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: do pop in, do speak
14:08 gabriel_laddel aite. but ftr you can ASSIGN me stuff that I will do. eg, leaving CA, finding job. Eventually was convinced.
14:08 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: and call it what you want, but imho it'll be moar appreciated as linux distro, than to label 'lispm'
14:09 gabriel_laddel how about lispm-prime
14:09 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: this is good to hear.
14:09 trinque gabriel_laddel: honestly why should anyone give a fuck to improve you.
14:09 trinque what are you, someone's girlfriend here?
14:09 asciilifeform trinque: barf all you like, the d00d nearly made a working cuntoo
14:09 trinque are you kidding?
14:09 gabriel_laddel trinque girlfri^H^H^Hintern
14:09 asciilifeform trinque: iirc he did have a standalone gentoo-cooker neh
14:10 ben_vulpes mod6: it's not a personal attack, i disagree that i agreed that v.pl was doing the Right Thing in leaving ~/.gnupgtmp hanging around
14:10 asciilifeform the misfortunate thing is that he labeled it 'lispm'
14:10 trinque who gives a shit. I made mine because it was trivial and I didn't want to hear about it anymore
14:10 asciilifeform trinque: out of curiosity, do the two of you know one another from meatspace ? and hated for 20yrs ? or how
14:10 trinque to date the guy has produced zero anyone uses, and I dunno why anyone entertains the larping and dick-pulling
14:10 trinque asciilifeform: I don't need extra reasons to hate the useless
14:10 asciilifeform trinque: he's what, 19 ?
14:10 gabriel_laddel 25
14:11 asciilifeform asciilifeform also had not produced anything useful to the republic, at 25
14:11 trinque guy pops in to give monologues about his psychological needs and that's it, and was ever it
14:11 ben_vulpes point also is not absolute age but years bouncing off the republic
14:11 asciilifeform at 25 asciilifeform unsuccessfully peddled an industrial automation linux+sbcl+proggy-in-a-crate actually quite reminiscent of gabriel_laddel's thing
14:11 trinque either to affirm some nonsense or surface against which to act out
14:12 asciilifeform trinque: he asked 'gimme useful item to do' neh
14:12 trinque he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
↖
14:12 trinque where's that, or was that just a paste one day when he needed a self-esteem boost
14:13 gabriel_laddel never pdf to text, but yes, archiver, NN via FG, RSA impl in CL, yes linux distro
14:13 trinque I dunno how this one idiot kid slipped through the crucify-the-useless process
14:13 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: here's a shot : take this http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760563 needleman-wunsch, and turn it into a standalone ( use sbcl's save-lisp-and-die knob, say ) difftron util. come up with own format.
14:13 a111 Logged on 2017-12-29 05:34 asciilifeform: >>>>> https://archive.is/jMMqT
14:13 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: also if you have an rsa, post it plox
14:13 trinque gabriel_laddel: so where the fuck are these then.
14:13 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform sorry, this is tasks I HAVE ACCEPTED onto stack.
14:14 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: what's yer medium-ter
14:14 asciilifeform m item
14:15 asciilifeform i.e. what brings gabriel_laddel to #t ?
14:16 gabriel_laddel the order I was anticipating was: M release for tmsr (free, obo), then NNFG, then RSA. lobbes has done/ is doing archiver
14:16 gabriel_laddel I'm here for the lispm, and staying for the FUCKGOATS
14:16 asciilifeform what's NNFG ?
14:16 gabriel_laddel training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
↖
14:17 trinque this is jam-tomorrow in asciilifeform's parlance eh?
14:17 asciilifeform trinque: not as if we're awash in recruits. we have here this 1legged d00d, says he wants to fight.
14:18 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: didja ever download the 1GB example FG bin ?
14:18 gabriel_laddel yes.
14:18 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: tried training on it ? vs , say, on /dev/urandom
14:18 asciilifeform what was result ?
14:18 asciilifeform ( because asciilifeform actually did a very similar experiment as a student, in early 2000s )
14:19 gabriel_laddel I never got a chance bc fighting all the idiots in CA myself. Same with archiver.Got banned before was able to host in house someone OK'd me for.
14:19 asciilifeform do you now have a comp and able to work ?
14:19 trinque I lived in Portland among the pantsuit cunts
14:19 asciilifeform i presume yes ?
14:19 gabriel_laddel yes.
14:19 trinque left. ben_vulpes also left.
14:20 asciilifeform trinque: fwiw i have never set foot in those lands. only met east cunts.
14:20 trinque what kind of appeal is this. "oh but I have limitations"
14:20 gabriel_laddel trinque I'm in ohio now, fwiw
14:20 gabriel_laddel you said LEAVE DUMBASS. I thought about it -- left.
14:20 asciilifeform aaanyway gabriel_laddel knows how to do this experiment. i look forward to hearing result
14:20 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform we're cohered.
14:21 asciilifeform there we go.
14:21 trinque heh, so then. quit stimulants, dumbass. and I'll consider removing the negrate.
14:21 asciilifeform maybe d00d sobers up for a day and does a job !
14:21 asciilifeform hell knows it's happened befoar
14:21 shinohai !~step 1
14:21 jhvh1 shinohai: Error: "step" is not a valid command.
14:21 asciilifeform ( and given that i ain't his personal physician , i dun even care if he does the job while tripping , or while sober, so long as he does )
14:21 trinque hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
↖
14:21 shinohai !~step1
14:21 jhvh1 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
14:22 trinque wiser folks hitting you on the head is a kindness.
14:22 asciilifeform trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
↖
14:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform neh! i have a magic box, into which i pour the transcendent substance that makes trilema. it comes out as ascii yes, but how is it plain.
14:38 asciilifeform in asciilifeform's head 'plain text' means strictly v100, i.e. this convenient (too convenient) item 'the customer Got Accustomed To'(tm)(r) in 1950s and is old, tired, being asked to do all sorts of contradictory things like sane diffability, structure-preserving edits, etc
14:39 mircea_popescu in my head, "plain text" means something else.
14:39 asciilifeform whereas it's just an array of asciiola and a few control chars (e.g. lf)
14:40 mircea_popescu formally : a stackless, hapless grammar incapable of recursion operating upon a certain finite symbol list.
14:40 mircea_popescu heapless*
14:40 asciilifeform dunno that the meat parser is stackless
14:40 mircea_popescu that's mp-plaintext, almost exactly your ada
14:40 asciilifeform ( or heapless. consider, where do the external symbols get pulled from . )
14:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i suspect i should have said single stack.
14:40 asciilifeform single yes.
14:40 mircea_popescu yes.
14:40 asciilifeform it's rather like... ffacalc, lol
14:41 mircea_popescu indeed.
14:42 mircea_popescu here, from random article : Sorry, furfies looking for group, I guess I fucked this one up for you ((But had you NOT complained about it -- who knows, maybe you'd still have PMs available ?)).\n\nPS. Today as in <A href=http://trilema.com/2014/askfm-laid-bare-or-whats-half-a-million-uniques-to-you/>2014</a>,
14:42 mircea_popescu that is the "plaintext", that comes out as the other plaintext, displayed (via the ~yet other~ plaintext, the html)
14:43 asciilifeform ok that'd be a platonic plaintextitude, lol, not a physical item.
14:43 mircea_popescu i guess!
14:43 asciilifeform speaking of...
14:43 asciilifeform !!up pehbot
14:43 deedbot pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
14:44 asciilifeform !A .BE7EA8B353CF33FA1226E6F87F97CE980353879CA9F00107C2DE4E123ECBE000.7D2AF9FAA2CD4F3CCFE8489B9BE1FE5F3A600D4E1E72A7C0041F0B793848FB2F.FA55F3F5459A9E799FD0913737C3FCBE74C01A9C3CE54F80083E16F27091F65F X #
14:44 pehbot asciilifeform: 5CF3CFFB385F801408DFF1BF9D66B57C4B5C2ED8E896811D36162BD33B626D7E
14:44 asciilifeform ^ preview/puzzle pre-ch6. solve what X does.
14:44 mircea_popescu which is why the whole "with mine owne eyes" screams were all about re previous pass of this, gpg-plaintext.
14:44 asciilifeform aha.
14:44 mircea_popescu i sadly lacked the formalism to usefully express it then. but now -- have.
14:46 asciilifeform soo analogously 'plaintext' would be 'the integers'(tm)(r) whereas asciilifeform's conception would then be the finite-bitness integers one actually gets to use on a comp
14:47 mod6 so previously, and im still digging in the logs...
14:48 mod6 the idea behind leaving the .gnupgtmp around after execution, is there because i wanted it to be there. not weather this is the Right Thing or not.
14:48 mod6 its basically a failure state -- .gnupgtmp should only be around if something FAILED.
14:48 mircea_popescu mod6 any particular reason to want ? aid debugging ? or ?
14:48 mircea_popescu aha
14:48 asciilifeform mod6: the most serious bug is not even the failure to delete the tempdir, but that every run of the vtron uses ~same one~
14:49 asciilifeform mod6: it makes, e.g., parallelly running vtrons on same box, impossible
14:49 mod6 and if it did fail, then perhaps one can go and look at what went on -- at the time, there were a lot of seals that didn't verify for instance.
14:49 mod6 i shouldn't say a lot. from time to time, one of alf's previous key ones would creep into ones flow or whatever, and you may want to check for yourself weather it verifies or not. or what gnupg might have been up to while executing v.
14:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764935 << prolly worth it, "re-examine history with new theoretical framework"
14:50 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 << i'm quite tempted to give the archive another combing and make a sequel to my http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165 item
14:50 asciilifeform mod6: imho a good debugism would be a flag that forces the printing to stderr of all external proggy (gpg, gnupatch) invocations , and their args
14:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha!
14:51 mircea_popescu mod6 i suspect the idea is sound, but maybe the posixism of "single fixed file" dun serve
14:51 mod6 anyway, if you see a .gnupgtmp, something failed. either the software failed, or the user interrupted the thing. either way, the responsibility has been on the user to determine if he should delete ~/.gnupgtmp or not.
14:51 mircea_popescu as he says, there be the logs.
14:51 mod6 now, for the concurrent part... now that's something I never did consider.
14:52 mod6 before i ever 'green light' that kinda use of my vtron, i'd certainly like to test it myself etc. and ya, that dir would have to be unique.
14:52 mircea_popescu mod6 why not use the system logs instead ?
14:52 mod6 maybe mktmpdir is sound for that. however, i remember discussing that before as well..and one fear that i had is that if you use mktmpdir, then you have a /tmp/23429adfsew32 dir.
14:53 mod6 which worries me about /tmp being flushed mid, or at anytime during execution.
14:53 mod6 sorry, lemme read back here. was just trying to type there.
14:53 asciilifeform mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix
14:53 trinque I don't think there's ever a case where , yeap
14:53 asciilifeform if you have a handle to it, it dun get zapped
14:54 asciilifeform ( thinkaboutit, tmp would be entirely useless if this were not so )
14:54 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: afaik this dun actually happen on any known unix << this the rub tho. have to make sure that it actually /NEVER/ happens. i can't have people failing in anyway with this thing.
14:54 mircea_popescu but he's stuck managing fucking state.
14:55 asciilifeform mod6: you can't make sure that the mains cord dun get pulled mid-press either
14:55 asciilifeform for so long as vtron uses gpg shell-out, it's stuck with the tmp dir crapola
14:55 mod6 the good news is, hopefully, your pgptron will be built into any new vtrons
14:56 asciilifeform afaik the best known solution is the one i used -- use the script lang's purpose-made lib for the item
14:56 mod6 no libs
14:56 asciilifeform ( i do not know from memory, what perl's is )
14:56 mod6 anyway, we'll figure something out. that part im not worried about.
14:56 asciilifeform ... or make own.
14:57 mod6 it sounds like my idea of "have something of a corpus to look at after failure" isn't as handy as simply just throwing it out.
14:57 asciilifeform this corpus should consist 100% of stderr output.
14:57 asciilifeform rather than rubbish left in tmp
14:57 asciilifeform user should not have to look in tmp.
14:57 mod6 its not rubbish
14:57 mod6 and i don't think people want 1Mb of shit dumped to stdout
14:57 mod6 it's the ~keyring~
14:57 asciilifeform wait why is it mb of shit
14:58 asciilifeform see, asciilifeform's orig trick with tmp was ~specifically~ to abolish the gpg keyring nonsense
14:58 asciilifeform i don't want to see it. ever. if i'm seeing it, vtron is broken !
14:58 mod6 and here's where we come full circle. :]
14:58 mod6 i gotta find these logs. im actually now convinced that we've discussed this very item not just once, but maybe even 3 or 4 times.
14:59 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764975 << very sad fucking item, i would fire the producer. contains "if he were" boilerplate verbiage copy-pasted in there, for utter shame.
14:59 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 15:19 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/o6uML/?raw=true << he confessed, 'pleabargained'.
14:59 asciilifeform in fact, if we weren't planning to take gpg behind the shed and shoot it, i'd publish my keyring-abolition patch ( gpg then DEMANDS pubkey FILE on cmdline for any op that uses one. ditto privates. )
14:59 mod6 anyway, i appreciate all the feedback. its obvious that there is passion to get this part of my vtron right.
15:00 mod6 lemme break off here for a minute, i'll keep digging up the logs to prove we talked this over.
15:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's an autogenned item, aha
15:00 mod6 bbs.
15:00 mircea_popescu goes well with the "didn't even afford paralelconstruct". this is some seriously low effort "job".
15:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea.
15:01 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
15:01 asciilifeform old bureaucrat, unpopular ( perhaps ) at office, picked as scapegoat for the infector leak of that year
15:02 asciilifeform fell over like a bowling pin after 'shown instrments'
15:02 asciilifeform ( h. martin )
15:03 asciilifeform signed, i suspect, what was put in front of him to sign, without even reading.
15:03 mircea_popescu why should he give a shit in either case.
15:03 mircea_popescu old guy, etc.
15:03 asciilifeform there's 2 ways those go.
15:03 asciilifeform this one -- went the 2nd.
15:03 asciilifeform ( 1st looks like http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-19#517160 . )
15:03 a111 Logged on 2014-02-19 19:41 asciilifeform: russian folk rhyme: 'Дедушка в поле гранату нашел. Взял он ее, к сельсовету пошел. Дернул колечко, кинул в окно. Дедушка старый — ему все равно.'
15:06 asciilifeform !A .1.0*#
15:06 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
~ 18 minutes ~
15:25 asciilifeform in other lulz, http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2018/Jan/12 >> ahahahahahaha the amd fritz chip, apparently finally killed
15:25 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-14#1555295 << re:.
15:25 a111 Logged on 2016-10-14 16:10 kmalkki: apu2 (with AMD PSP) does respond properly to JTAG IDCODE
15:26 asciilifeform '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
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15:26 trinque https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-PSP-Disable-Option << totally unrelated, pay no attention
15:26 asciilifeform trinque: dun help with bios-jtagging tho. it gotta be disabled AT RESET
15:27 asciilifeform which you naturally can't do from bios.
15:27 asciilifeform ( uefi dun get read until close to end of warmup process )
15:27 trinque I'm sure it doesn't work. meant only to marketing-work
15:27 asciilifeform however with the 0day -- might be doable.
15:27 asciilifeform (until patched.)
15:28 asciilifeform 'A TLV (type-length-value) structure is parsed and copied on to the parent stack frame. Unfortunately, there are missing bounds checks, and a specially crafted certificate can lead to a stack overflow...' etc
15:29 asciilifeform btw what does trb's ssl do with crafted der-encoded derpery ?
15:29 asciilifeform anybody try ?
15:37 mod6 ok. asciilifeform, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, phf, all others interested, here's the orig thread (as ben_vulpes also found earlier): http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/76gSk/?raw=true
15:37 mod6 It seems that asciilifeform has been saying the same thing all along.
15:38 mod6 And I've taken a bit of a different direction, perhaps because of 'File::Tempdir' or some nonsense.
15:39 mod6 So here's what I'll do: I'll revisit this, and try to come up with a unique tempdir. This tempdir is to be used exactly once. Created at run time. Removed at the end of run time. If execution fails or is interrupted, nothing will be done. It'll be left hanging there until the user removes it manually.
15:40 mod6 in the case of failure, i could try to remove the tmpdir during the 'Death()' call or something. But with interrupted execution, there's no way to know when the interrupt is coming. Nothing to do about it here.
15:41 ben_vulpes it is fine to leave the tempdir in place so long as it is uniquely named
15:41 ben_vulpes the important thing is that it not be the same tempdir every time so that interrupted executions don't block the next execution
15:43 mod6 Ok, will look into a better way to handle this. I appreciate your passionate want to make this better.
15:46 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764988 << good idea. << fwiw, i'll be working on this to ensure that the bug fix is correct.
15:46 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 15:40 mod6: I went through each one, looks to be doing the sane thing. I'm probably going to write it up in a little post that can be looked at, as opposed to trying to explain all of that in 3 lines of irc.
15:46 mod6 then ill dig into the tmpdir thing. i want to ensure that the bug fix i've made is correct before I proceed.
15:52 asciilifeform neato mod6 . thx for putting in the sweat.
15:57 ben_vulpes yeah really, muchas gracias mod6
16:04 mod6 <3
16:12 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 << once i realized what was going on...
16:12 a111 Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
17:22 ben_vulpes dude The20YearIRCloud the fuck even is the point of a bouncer that's constantly disconnecting
17:23 asciilifeform what makes you think it's a bouncer, ben_vulpes
17:23 ben_vulpes i thought that's what irccloud advertised
17:23 ben_vulpes a modern IRC client that keeps you connected, with none of the baggage
17:24 ben_vulpes possibly just normal idiot browserclient!
17:24 asciilifeform 'Stay connected, chat from anywhere, and never miss a message.'
17:24 asciilifeform lolyes
17:25 ben_vulpes i am having just a terrible time with the else-clause pushing a zero to the stack
17:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: hm ?
17:27 asciilifeform !!up pehbot
17:27 deedbot pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
17:27 asciilifeform !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
17:27 pehbot asciilifeform: bar
17:27 asciilifeform !A .0{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
17:27 pehbot asciilifeform: bar0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
17:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes really hates typing '_' or wat
17:28 ben_vulpes !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_
17:28 pehbot ben_vulpes: foo
17:28 ben_vulpes !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}
17:28 pehbot ben_vulpes: foo
17:29 asciilifeform !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]}_ Q
17:29 pehbot asciilifeform: foo
17:29 asciilifeform !A .1{[foo]}{[bar]} Q
17:29 pehbot asciilifeform: foo0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
17:30 ben_vulpes hm
17:30 asciilifeform this is an engineering tension, ben_vulpes ; i'll grant that the trailing _ is ugly. however it makes the mechanism simpler, all { are handled in exactly same way, and ditto all }
17:31 asciilifeform however the _ can be made to disappear, at the cost of an added moving part. i will ask ben_vulpes to draw this moving part, as exercise.
17:31 asciilifeform feel free to submit a patch.
17:31 ben_vulpes wbool flag, you mentioned iirc
17:31 asciilifeform so draw it.
17:32 ben_vulpes gotta have working model in head first before patching!
17:32 asciilifeform ( what we have right now, is that we have no 'if-clause' or 'else-clause', physically, they are exactly the same thing, simply happen to be a pair of'em )
17:34 asciilifeform a { takes a value off the stack and, if it is 0 : ignores further ops until it gets a ~matching~ } , then leaves a 1 on the stack; if it is a 1, proceeds to the next op , and when a closing } is found , leaves a 0 on the stack.
17:36 asciilifeform and btw i gotta take back http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 -- in that i have nfi how to 'abolish the _' while making nested conditionals still work.
17:36 a111 Logged on 2018-01-03 17:07 phf: using the boolean we execute an if/else branch which either swaps the two numbers and drops the top most '_, or drops the top most without swapping _. the final drop _ is an artifact of conditional implementation that always leaves a value on the stack.
17:36 asciilifeform grrrr http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763210 i mean.
17:36 a111 Logged on 2018-01-03 17:17 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-03#1763202 << i've been thinking of abolishing the artifact where a 0 stays on the stack after the 'else' branch. it'd require only 1 extra state variable ( a WBool )
17:38 asciilifeform aaaactually i can think of 1 way :
17:38 asciilifeform if { were to LEAVE THE SELECTOR on the stack , instead of eating it
17:39 asciilifeform then the optional else-clause could be preceded by a ~
17:39 asciilifeform and trigger on the negation of that selfsame selector.
17:39 asciilifeform otherwise , if we do not want the else-clause, we drop _ it.
17:40 asciilifeform phf, ben_vulpes , mircea_popescu , et al ^
17:41 asciilifeform so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
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17:41 ben_vulpes i has it!
17:41 ben_vulpes sweet
17:41 asciilifeform hm?
17:42 ben_vulpes a solution!
17:42 asciilifeform post?
17:42 ben_vulpes well, gonna reread vpatch for ch04 and then submit with my seal but sure, gimme a sec
17:43 asciilifeform patch on top of ch5 plox
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17:43 asciilifeform or it won't go into ch6 (or anywhere)
17:44 ben_vulpes i haven't bitten off the patch yet, and might not get to it by the time you release ch6, this all takes me a lot longer than phf or lobbes
17:44 asciilifeform consider describing it here then
17:45 ben_vulpes oh sorry sorry, i meant a solution to the ch4 puzzle
17:45 asciilifeform point being, if you patch on an existing ffa_calc, it'll have to be reground
17:45 asciilifeform aaaaaaaa lok
17:45 asciilifeform i thought ben_vulpes was speaking of a soln to the branch thing
17:46 ben_vulpes nah, dun expect such of me; i draft plans for field construction of catapaults i don't invent them
17:46 asciilifeform dunno, this item is in principle accessible to the n00b
17:47 asciilifeform it dun use no fancy book-larnin'
17:48 ben_vulpes i'll noodle on it as appropriate, sure
17:48 ben_vulpes (ch 4 puzzle accessible to noob as well, but still took me much grinding of headgears)
17:49 asciilifeform so let's hear ben_vulpes's answ
17:49 asciilifeform or rather, feed to pehbot
17:50 asciilifeform !!pehbot .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
17:50 asciilifeform !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ( ben_vulpes's solution goes here ) Q
17:50 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000600000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000030000000000000000000000000000000000
17:51 asciilifeform ... oughta output ABCD etc
17:51 ben_vulpes oh man i didn't even test against hex values
17:51 asciilifeform why would it matter
17:51 asciilifeform recall how constants work to begin with
17:52 ben_vulpes i know that it shouldn't, but i do like to actually test things
17:52 ben_vulpes lest i ironclad myself
17:52 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt/tree/ffa/ffacalc/ffa_calc.adb#L232 << for reference
17:53 ben_vulpes !A .4.3.6.ABCD.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:53 pehbot ben_vulpes: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ABCD
17:53 asciilifeform !A .4.3.6.0.FF.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:53 pehbot asciilifeform: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
17:53 asciilifeform !A .4.3.6.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:53 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
17:53 asciilifeform !A .4.3.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:53 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004
17:53 asciilifeform !A .0.3.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:53 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003
17:54 asciilifeform !A .0.0.0.0.0.0.1 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:54 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
17:54 asciilifeform !A .0.0.0.0.0.0.0 ``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_``>{_}{'_}_ Q
17:54 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
17:54 asciilifeform unsurprisingly, it worx
17:54 asciilifeform ben_vulpes is a winrar
17:54 asciilifeform now he can look at the 'official' answr in ch5.
17:54 ben_vulpes caftans for the caftan god
17:57 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: why `int' for EOF and `Integer' for Sadness_Code ?
17:57 asciilifeform no good reason.
17:58 asciilifeform ( 'int' reflects that it gets used strictly in the c ffi , was orig idea )
17:58 ben_vulpes hmk
17:58 asciilifeform os.ads/adb is to corral all of the unix-specific uglies
17:58 asciilifeform it gets replaced wholesale when porting to, e.g., a dedicated micro
17:59 asciilifeform ( yes there will be a mips32 etc )
18:08 shinohai http://archive.is/A0xiZ <<< How Roy Moore deals with the opposition.
18:10 asciilifeform 'Tina Johnson, who first came to public notice for accusing Senate candidate Roy Moore of grabbing her in his office in the early 1990s' << how to parse this sentence ?
18:10 asciilifeform [accusing ....] [in the early 1990s] ?
18:10 asciilifeform or .... [accusing ... in the early 1990s] ?
18:11 asciilifeform i.e. when was the accusation ?
18:12 shinohai It's Alabama journalism, so don't expect too much ....
18:12 ben_vulpes very specific with the accusation history too, in the office is where she accused him!
18:12 asciilifeform no but this q has an answer
18:12 asciilifeform what is it
18:13 ben_vulpes she went to wal-mart! crucial detail!
18:13 * ben_vulpes tunes out
18:13 asciilifeform walmartistan! 'filtration system, a marvel to behoooold...'(tm)(r)
18:14 ben_vulpes hey asciilifeform didja have any objections to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759143 ?
18:14 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
18:15 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i dun recall that this scheme was ever fleshed out
18:15 asciilifeform into something to which i'd have , or not have, an objection
18:15 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759146 seemed pretty fleshed out to me
18:15 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 04:52 mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
18:15 asciilifeform it doesn't solve the fundamental problem
18:16 asciilifeform which is that ~moves~ are ugly and info-destroying
18:16 asciilifeform i oughta be able to take a 1MB text file, cut it in the middle, and swap the halves, and the resulting diff to be a few lines.
18:16 ben_vulpes different problem, different problem.
18:16 trinque question there wasn't just moves. it was how to ever have two patches with same parent, that edited different files, end up same item.
18:16 asciilifeform nope. same problem, in essence.
18:17 asciilifeform trinque: consider how i solved this in trb.
18:17 asciilifeform ( 'this' being 'same parent ... end up same item' )
18:18 trinque the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
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18:18 asciilifeform let's concretize
18:18 asciilifeform look at the graph in http://btcbase.org/patches
18:18 trinque already has been.
18:18 asciilifeform aite , if trinque gets it , i won't waste logspace
18:18 trinque you edit db.cpp. I edit main.cpp. how does someone now use both of those pieces of work in a 3rd patch.
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18:19 asciilifeform by copying the db.cpp from asciilifeform's tree, the main.cpp from trinque's , and making sure they do not semantically conflict , then vdiffing.
18:20 asciilifeform bang, valid coalescing.
18:21 asciilifeform just like how, e.g., asciilifeform_and_now_we_have_eatblock coalesces mod6_fix_dumpblock_params and asciilifeform_ver_now_5_4_and_irc_is_gone_and_now_must_give_ip
18:23 ben_vulpes what irks me about this is that one can make a patch that depends on a state of the codebase that is not a valid press.
18:24 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the only item required to be a hook on which a valid press hangs, is individual patch
18:24 ben_vulpes or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
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18:24 asciilifeform how you make a vdiff is yer own biznis, can make with magnetic needle for all anybody cares
18:24 trinque how does this not expand to still more antecedents dragged into child patch as time goes on?
18:24 asciilifeform trinque: why would anything end up 'dragged in'
18:24 asciilifeform can draw a hypothetical for asciilifeform's enlightenment plox ?
18:26 trinque patch A1 and A2 are peers, happened to different files with same starting codebase state. you proposed writing a B that encompases whatever changes plus the bodies of A1 and A2.
18:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: think of it this way : EVERY time you edit ANYTHING, you created 'invalid' state, i.e. one that could never have been the result of a sequence of presses of previously-existing patches !
18:27 asciilifeform trinque: if B needs A1 and A2, it naturally gets parented by both. if it needs instead modified A1' and A2' , then naturally each of those is parented by the respective A1 or A2
18:28 asciilifeform there's no particular reason for anything extraneous to get draggedin
18:28 asciilifeform i am so far failing to see the mega-problem
18:29 asciilifeform i pointedly do NOT agree that 'having to use an external tool like cp command' is a problem. for fuckssake you have to use a non-vtron tool to edit the coad ! vtron dun replace emacs.
18:29 trinque you do not see how it's fundamentally retarded to consider db.cpp a distinct thing, rather than the scroll "trb" as the *thing*
18:30 asciilifeform trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file
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18:30 asciilifeform this will then reflect the desired semantics.
18:30 asciilifeform but do not try to cripple MY programs into 'being 1 file'.
18:30 asciilifeform or ask writers of books to dispense with chapters
18:30 asciilifeform cutting items into named parts, is useful, ffs
18:31 asciilifeform i think i grasp what trinque wants : for vtron to actually reflect the semantics of the code being juggled
18:31 asciilifeform this is not actually possible in a general way, it'd have to ~understand~ cpp, ada, cl, whatevers
18:31 trinque db.cpp is nothing by itself, other than "ono this file was too big"
18:32 trinque sure it is; I proposed before that the antecedent hash ought to be the hash of the concatenation
18:32 trinque to date no one has critiqued that view directly.
18:32 asciilifeform this TAKES AWAY detail that is currently preserved.
18:32 asciilifeform and imposes nonsensical constraint that would not otherwise be imposed.
18:32 trinque nonsense indeed.
18:33 asciilifeform patches that do not touch db.cpp , in any way shape or form, should not lock it into a state or depend on a particular state of it
18:33 trinque I do not need to edit the fucking thing to depend on a particular state of it
18:34 asciilifeform trinque: your tree ends up a spaghetti of radiating strands that can never recoalesce.
18:36 trinque I am not going to sidestep onto that point. I made one, have anything to say to it?
18:37 asciilifeform that it completely thermonukes the usefulness of v, to me personally.
18:37 asciilifeform and i'ma have nothing to do with any project that makes use of such a system.
18:37 asciilifeform want moar ? or get the idea
18:38 asciilifeform take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.
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18:39 ben_vulpes the point that trinque is making is that you can change other files in such a way that ruins maxint_locks
18:39 asciilifeform if instead it demanded that your tree, to apply it, be bitwise-identical to asciilifeform's tree when he made it -- you could only build on this patch if you reground ALL of EVERYONE's work every single fucking time
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18:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: yes and this is coarse error in pilotage. THIS, not the fact that v permits you.
18:39 asciilifeform knife will cut artery as well as sausage. not knife's job,to know what it cuts.
18:40 trinque we come to a deep political disagreement there
18:40 trinque the more constraints against idiocy the better.
18:40 asciilifeform think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
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18:41 trinque there can be multiple trees just fine in that world
18:41 asciilifeform i will not tie OWN hands to possibly constrain some idiot somewhere.
18:41 trinque hasn't yet been any reason someone benefits by having your edit to maxlocks but having done something batshit to say, a file db.cpp depends upon
18:42 asciilifeform if trb tree can continue to look EXACTLY like http://btcbase.org/patches ( with new leaves growing ) -- your vtron is usable. if not -- not.
18:42 asciilifeform trinque: the fact that the patch gets to be small, readable, and cleanly coalesceable . it correctly reflects the fact that it nonconflicts with items outside of db.cpp .
18:43 asciilifeform it makes no superfluous constraints .
18:43 asciilifeform superflous constraints, 'just in case', is how the talmudists ended up the way they are.
18:44 asciilifeform y'know how this ends,trinque, it ends with having to line yer house with rope ('eruv'), pay some d00d to dial a modem to turn yer stove on and off...
18:45 asciilifeform but i'ma rewind upstack : trinque is entirely free to begin using this type of v right now ! by coalescing whole proggy into 1 file. then he can see what ends up happening to his tree.
18:47 asciilifeform that's what 'hash the codebase' equals. 1 file.
18:47 ben_vulpes i'm going to tap out, will wait for mircea_popescu to pour some more fuel on this one.
18:48 asciilifeform srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
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18:48 asciilifeform and is SIMPLE .
18:48 ben_vulpes can dig trench here or ten feet sideways, literally does not matter to me.
18:48 asciilifeform and yes it relies on operators not to do blitheringly idiotic things. this is why v is possible in tmsr and not at microshit.
18:49 asciilifeform ( and moreover, if operators INSIST on committing war crimes, it makes cleanup trivial. called negrate. )
18:49 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: arguing has honed how i see the problem at least
18:49 ben_vulpes not going to go break everything, at least today.
18:49 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765599 << I'm not dignifying this shit.
18:49 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:48 asciilifeform: srsly i dunget why all of you lot so much want to break v. it WORKS.
18:50 asciilifeform it's a fact. it works.
18:50 asciilifeform the patches are readable because they are minimal, and local changes stay local.
18:51 asciilifeform and at the risk of repeating , trinque can ~already~ do his style, in the existing v. whereas asciilifeform can't do worth shit in a trinque-style v.
18:54 asciilifeform mod6's 'makefiles' was able to cleanly build on 'asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected' , without regrinding anything. i still fail to understand what would have been gained by forcing mod6 to ~manually~ regrind the entire history of entire fucking world in order to produce 'makefiles' ( and for the latter to consequently weigh a megabyte , instead of 10kb !!! )
18:58 ben_vulpes ehehehentirely unrelatedly, asciilifeform, what's with the odd capitalization of mUx in ch4?
18:58 asciilifeform because U
18:58 asciilifeform i thought it was clear
19:00 trinque first off, I wrote the makefiles, mod6 modified. speaking of political fog.
19:00 asciilifeform i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
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19:00 trinque second, does my memory deceive or did the thing end up with a comment in an *unrelated file*
19:01 asciilifeform trinque: you did , hm, didntcha
19:01 ben_vulpes db.cpp, init.cpp, several
19:01 * asciilifeform does not recall who made each item unless said fact was preserved in nakme
19:01 asciilifeform *nazme
19:01 asciilifeform grr
19:01 asciilifeform name
19:01 trinque ben_vulpes: don't cloud the politics with facts!
19:01 asciilifeform lol
19:02 ben_vulpes but this is the magic political speshul case of a patch that ties together other patches for the political object that is a release!
19:02 asciilifeform trinque: it in fact put comments in unrelated file. just as i described must be done to tie up strands, when i released v
19:02 asciilifeform note that this is an item you have ~option~ of doing.
19:03 asciilifeform if every patch were forced to do it, you could not have a tree at all -- only radiating spokes.
19:03 asciilifeform try it yourself.
19:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: there is nothing mechanically 'speshulcase' about it, the vtron has no dedicated execution path for it. it'sa patch like any other.
19:09 asciilifeform and it is the correct way to coalesce strands.
19:10 trinque this is nonsense. people can choose any prior state whatsoever as basis for a new patch.
19:10 asciilifeform if asciilifeform misread trinque's scheme somewhere -- will reread. but my current understanding is that it is exactly equivalent to signing tarballs. like in dark ages.
19:10 trinque it's certainly easier to criticize that way, isn't it
19:10 asciilifeform you can sign tarballs right now. i dun see why to even use a vtron then.
19:11 asciilifeform trinque: is the observation factual or not ?
19:11 asciilifeform how does $scheme differ from the old practice of signing tars ?
19:12 trinque you are *already* naming arbitrary antecedents in this ad hoc manner of ~meaningless~ junk edits that do not well convey why they happened by sitting there.
19:12 asciilifeform but they aren't meaningless. they signify 'you will have ~this~ db.cpp and ~this~ db.h and ...'
19:12 trinque I proposed two schemes to better model it, and actually like the second better. one was including the entire concatenation's hash in a vpatch. the second was being able to name arbitrary antecedent files without the requirement that diff material follows
19:13 asciilifeform trinque: let's consider the 2nd then
19:14 asciilifeform suppose this algo were in use. and it is time for trinque to write the 'makefiles' patch . how does the latter coalesce the strands ?
19:14 asciilifeform ( btw does trinque have an existing variant-vtron that i can look at the output of ? )
19:15 trinque by simply naming the files that would've received the junk-comments as antecedents, with hash of their expected state
19:15 trinque there are two questions conflated here; 1) what is the expected state of the patient and 2) what is to be done to him
19:16 asciilifeform understand, trinque , asciilifeform does not suffer from an irrational hatred of people who start with letter 't' , and thereby balk at $algo. asciilifeform genuinely does not see how it results in anything other than a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765616 horror show.
19:16 a111 Logged on 2018-01-06 00:00 asciilifeform: i'ma summarize the v thing : if you have a proposed new v algo ; and it would turn my 1kB patches into 1MB, and my readable 3 lines into 100kLoc of ?#@%$*(@%% , and my trivial machine-diff-verifiable changes into 'why dontcha sit for 5 years doing eyeball-powered diff' -- it is NOT an improvement. and i won't touch it. sign it. sign anything made on it. etc
19:17 asciilifeform hey trinque why dontcha write your variant vtron. then we'll talk about the output. rather than this headache.
19:17 asciilifeform i promise to try it.
19:18 asciilifeform this is what distinguishes us from the apes, we can do experiment, rather than argue over empty table.
19:18 trinque certainly will
19:19 asciilifeform >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759157 << see also!111
19:19 a111 Logged on 2017-12-27 07:13 mircea_popescu: o the fuck he is!!! ie, the world's heavyweight champion. ayer explained that he's the ex wykeham professor of logic, and since they're both pre-eminent in their respective fields, how about they indulge in discourse rather than intercourse. oddly enough tyson accepted, and naomi campbell slipped out -- apparently undamaged enough by the experience to actually do those not-even-terrible shots with madonna.
19:21 asciilifeform this goes for anybody else who has a crackpot alt-v
19:21 asciilifeform post the coad!
19:34 asciilifeform in unrealated noose, massive reorg on zoolag
19:34 asciilifeform 5 ( possibly 6 ) -high
19:35 asciilifeform anybody else see one ?
19:39 ben_vulpes > 2018-01-06_00:29:50.97891 REORGANIZE
19:39 ben_vulpes how are you determining dpeth of reorg?
19:40 asciilifeform mistakenly, lol
19:40 asciilifeform it's the typical 1.
19:40 asciilifeform ( as shown by maxheight pre- and post- )
19:40 asciilifeform i really gotta automate this 'meta' , the existing 'eyeball-powered' one is rather laughable.
19:43 asciilifeform !!up luny
19:43 deedbot luny voiced for 30 minutes.
19:43 asciilifeform luny: who might you be ?
19:49 asciilifeform !~later tell phf plox to snarf http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch4_ffacalc.vpatch.benvulpes.sig , ty
19:49 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
19:50 asciilifeform hey ben_vulpes didja ever sign ch3 ??
19:50 asciilifeform i have a ch4 for ben_vulpes but not a ch3...
19:51 asciilifeform or hm nm
19:53 asciilifeform !~later tell phf plox to snarf http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/ffa_ch3_shifts.vpatch.benvulpes.sig .
19:53 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
19:54 asciilifeform if there's anybody else who signed , but not currently visible in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch5_egypt in appropriate spot -- plox to write in.
19:57 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/rvNE2/?raw=true << for convenience -- who i have so far.
20:05 ben_vulpes figured that you would find it eventulolly
~ 19 minutes ~
20:25 mircea_popescu now let's see if this log can be caught up with.
20:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765023 << sadly, not in this language. but otherwise, the german school is the canonical introduction ; read ye yer kant, then proceed to http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=frege (not the other fucking way around ; english is a liability to the thinking man, and the latter's accessibility a burden).
20:30 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 17:50 lobbes: In other incidental preguntas: mircea_popescu, can you recommend good "introductory" reading on the subject of thought classification? It seems like the obvious fundamental to improving my cognitive processes
20:35 mircea_popescu and since this was mentioned : "kantian ethics", ie the item on which lazy-because-dumb-because-lazy-because-dumb-because esltards have gelled in their attempt to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764883 ie spuriously pretend "oh, WE ALREADY DID KANT!!" etc is about as relevant to the man's work as newtonian alchemy is relevant to newton's work.
20:35 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 07:03 mircea_popescu: other than the lovely "if you launched all pantsuit in outer space, do you expect seti would manage to find any ?" putdown, valuable lesson from naggum : inept bureaucrats / insufferable cucks / other "people themselves" try to barnacle their inept nonsense (in original, scheme) on pre-existing "brand" (as they perceive it ; in the original -- lisp) for the transparently transactional reason that this way they "get to" (as th
20:36 mircea_popescu so do not fucking dare read anything having any ENGLISH SOUNDING NAMES anywhere at any point involved, which includes the fucking best grip.
20:36 asciilifeform watsa 'best grip' ?
20:36 mircea_popescu absolute ban on english as an avenue to this much in the same way absolute ban to barking as an avenue to opera. i don't care if you're a dog and i don't care if barking comes naturally to you
20:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform job on movie set, ~handyman.
20:37 * asciilifeform tries to think of most recent englischer worth reading... ...turing??
20:39 mircea_popescu hey, there's plenty, just not really on the topic [i inferred him to have] asked.
20:41 mircea_popescu but yes -- russian translations of kant, fichte, heidegger, husserl, spinoza, frege absolutely acceptable ; heck, even ro ones are fine. french is getting iffy.
20:42 * asciilifeform found eng frege ~inedible
20:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's a place where he was integrated into the borg, but it's a dubious weld.
20:42 asciilifeform and come to think of it, damn near any eng trans of substantially complicated philosopher
20:45 mircea_popescu anyway, it's funny how englischer "german school" goes kant-schopenhauer-karlziggler-hegel"ians"-nietsche-clinton.
20:46 mircea_popescu what the everloving fuck already, car-paintjob-toenails-sunscreen-beachbod.
20:47 mircea_popescu exactly a problem of "where the fuck is your engine" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1763930 ie "your problem is that you aren't fucking thinking. AT ALL."
20:47 a111 Logged on 2018-01-04 17:11 mircea_popescu: they had all sorts of (utterly nonsensical) "cars of the future", their features being that they were "warlike" (in a dysfunctional, anti-mechanicistic, looks-are-everything-and-hot-beats-cute girl pov) and that they had mechanisms exposed
20:47 asciilifeform oblig eco : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537275
20:47 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 15:53 asciilifeform: ' fauns, beings of double sex, brutes with six-fingered hands, sirens, hippocentaurs, gorgons, harpies, incubi, dragopods, minotaurs, lynxes, pards, chimeras, cynophales who darted fire from their nostrils, crocodiles, polycaudate, hairy serpents, salamanders, horned vipers, tortoises, snakes, two-headed creatures whose backs were armed with teeth, hyenas, otters, crows, hydrophora with saw-tooth horns, frogs, gryphons, monkeys, dog-
20:49 mircea_popescu and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
↖
20:49 mircea_popescu contrary to what pantsuit may be whispering in ear, "here i am, with this 10lb book of which i can read not a word" is a very poor predictor of failure.
20:50 mircea_popescu "now we're getting somewhere" better predictor of failure ; and there being english names anywhere inside the item -- almost perfect predictor.
~ 32 minutes ~
21:22 esthlos http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20180105/#802 << I have an intuition that this is missing a higher symmetry. Why not use v for prose documents?
21:22 scriba Logged on 2018-01-05: [19:03:26] <mircea_popescu> as i say -- i see no way out here ; we'll end up with the v-code + blog-commentary ostrich-camel and god help us./
21:24 mircea_popescu esthlos because if put in separate places they'll automatically personalize ; hence the blogposts comment.
21:25 mircea_popescu !!up jpx__
21:25 deedbot jpx__ voiced for 30 minutes.
21:25 jpx__ sup
21:26 esthlos hmm...is there a way for reflow not to break diff...
21:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765028 << lmao this guy. YOU PUT IT THERE! and moreover... what is the logic of "begins to suspect that ~nobody actually read ch5" when "it survived nearly a week of asciilifeform rereading whole thing every day." ? DID YOU NOT READ IT ?
21:26 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 17:53 asciilifeform: ^ bug. shame on everybody, for not noticing.
21:26 mircea_popescu who might you be jpx__
21:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765066 << this inevitably led to mention of knuth which in turn makes one realize tex existed originally exactly because http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765177
21:32 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 18:12 asciilifeform: well, let's reread http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory then :
21:32 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:01 mircea_popescu: in any case, here's the logic : the proximate cause of the failure of "computer science" to amount to 0 (not epsilon, 0) since its inception is strictly due to poor treatment of comments as 2nd class item in code.
21:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765095 << there's a certain...ring... to that. "a cuntoo pressing itself". http://78.media.tumblr.com/9307e89967592d33f10d9598fcdbc2ec/tumblr_ndiplotSRF1th0gwho1_1280.jpg
21:38 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 18:28 asciilifeform: no good. first of all suppose there are 2 concurrent runs of the vtron ( say this is a cuntoo pressing itself )
21:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765100 << this is a gensym in the sense girl you met at butcher's is your true love. why not call gns like sane people.
21:39 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 18:29 asciilifeform: ( make a string out of /dev/random crapola + current epoch time, say )
21:39 mircea_popescu o... wait...
21:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765119 << this is actually the most cogent critique of phalocentrism in computing i ever read.
21:42 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 18:45 asciilifeform: ( upstack : dma, interrupts, pipeline, instruction reorderer, 'hyperthreading', multiple buses, 'bridges' -- all are epicycles ( hey mircea_popescu ! ) from vonneumannism , where instructions 'push' (unrelated to stack concept) outputs, rather than 'pull' inputs as they oughta )
21:42 asciilifeform gensyms have 0 to do with centralized name lists or any *ns
21:42 asciilifeform they're simply 'i want a piece of shit that won't recur'
21:42 asciilifeform !#s gensym
21:42 a111 15 results for "gensym", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gensym
21:43 asciilifeform ^ there's gotta be a likbez in'ere.
21:44 asciilifeform in practice you can use e.g. 256bits of fg. asteroids will flatten you before it ever recurs.
21:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aaaand how do you make it not recuir lol
21:44 asciilifeform liekthat.
21:44 mircea_popescu this is not the samr thing!
21:44 mircea_popescu re-read my comment, it is exactly accurate!
21:44 mircea_popescu can also run into soulmate at butcher's!
21:45 asciilifeform can!
21:45 mircea_popescu back at sanity ranch, ~only way to know it won't recur is the way trinque has it implemented
21:45 mircea_popescu when i ask for a deposit it won't fucking recur.
21:46 mircea_popescu ("why not ?" "because he's not gonna reissue the item already in db doh")
21:46 asciilifeform if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
↖
21:46 mircea_popescu right.
21:46 asciilifeform harder is when there is not a record.
21:46 asciilifeform in that case rng. in fact this is almost definition of what trng is for.
21:47 mircea_popescu it is, isn't it.
21:47 asciilifeform ( you want a unique e.g. rsa privmod, but without having to show it to anybody ... )
21:49 mircea_popescu tring is secret gensym ; gensym is public trng.
21:49 asciilifeform approx
21:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765140 << could trivially point into structure by word count! which is how it was fucking done before you darned kids started skatin' on the sidewalk! my addressing into classical text is paragraph count / word offset. what the FUCK is a line!
21:51 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 18:54 asciilifeform: ( whynot, is not a bad question, it reduces to the absence of a solution to the tednelson problem -- how to point into a structure unambiguously, other than by line # )
21:51 asciilifeform same problem as lines
21:52 asciilifeform trivial changes mutilate the pointer
21:52 mircea_popescu notrly, i'd be happy with "text is made of words" ; my problem is entirely "text is made of words ARRANGED IN LINES".
21:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform code reference is not to be optimized for the writer of code.
21:53 mircea_popescu code reference is to be optimized for the reader of code.
21:53 mircea_popescu the ~only~ person who matters, in ALL of fucking computer, is HE WHO READS CODE, all hail to him, the greatest one.
21:53 mircea_popescu everyone else can go pack mud.
21:53 asciilifeform forget writers of code and who-whom, for a minute, it's an actual unsolved
21:53 * mircea_popescu forgets.
21:53 asciilifeform it's the problem that drove ted nelson mad.
21:54 asciilifeform ( and imho not unjustifiably )
21:54 mircea_popescu explain it to me like i'm new.
21:54 asciilifeform hmm
21:56 asciilifeform there are texts. and long before gutenberg , texts knew how to refer to one another.
21:56 mircea_popescu ok.
21:56 asciilifeform by title, author.
21:56 asciilifeform then gutenberg, and also became sometimes possible to refer to page.
21:56 mircea_popescu by title, author, paragraph and word offset.
↖
21:56 asciilifeform aha.
21:56 mircea_popescu it became new-jersey possible
21:56 mircea_popescu "works 80% of the time and breaks everything"
21:56 asciilifeform e.g. bible grew concordance, with word offsets etc
21:57 mircea_popescu there was an early knuth trying an early standardization of the same inanity, cca 1600, yes
21:57 asciilifeform aha.
21:57 asciilifeform herr leibniz
21:57 mircea_popescu NOTE!!! however thatr foercing this ("all bible pages begin and end on same fucking words motherfuckers!!!) ruins the very point of print
21:58 mircea_popescu which is... to not go around with photocopies, but REPRINT! ie, reflow.
21:58 asciilifeform was bad enuff with print;
21:58 asciilifeform then somebody made electric textrons where the text can... change. AFTER somebody already pointered into it.
21:58 mircea_popescu yes.
21:59 asciilifeform we are here.
21:59 mircea_popescu how is this anything than "high fucking time we implement the original correctness" ?
22:00 asciilifeform q is not whether, but how
22:00 mircea_popescu dude!
22:00 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765738
22:00 a111 Logged on 2018-01-06 02:46 asciilifeform: if you have a record of all the prev shots, it is trivial to avoid recurring ( use simple counter )
22:00 mircea_popescu the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 paragraph 96 word 17
22:00 mircea_popescu wtf is v for!
22:01 asciilifeform is why i built it, yes
22:01 mircea_popescu so then, can we forget the inanities. reference is by wordcount, paragraph, work ; there is no "generic" work title but only correct patchid, ie the bible take 349875938475893749854379857 above ; and this is fucking all.
22:02 asciilifeform nelson's doom goes away if you can staticize the text.
22:02 mircea_popescu have fixed indentation for all languages (aka only use languages with fixed indentation) and my text can flow!
22:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform much in the way pain in eye goes away once you move the fucking spoon.
22:03 mircea_popescu in the republic, the reference system is patch-tree ; press-head ; word-offset. wtf is wrong with that!
22:03 asciilifeform indentation and whitespace placement in general, oughta be a harem (i.e. terminal config) matter.
22:03 mircea_popescu yes but i like how lisp does it so how about default that
22:03 asciilifeform store data as fucking sexprs already. let the vt100 die.
22:03 mircea_popescu and then harem on top.
22:04 mircea_popescu (contrary to above newjersyization, print was mega-republican tech, in that it STANDARDIZED LETTERS. you would NOT FUCKING BELIVE the unicode the dark ages had produced!)
22:04 asciilifeform this is when asciilifeform admits that he has a small demo of this. but is being saved for after ffa, cuz Finishing Things Properly (tm)
22:05 mircea_popescu cool. not like there's any rush.
22:05 asciilifeform iirc trinque also has sumthing in back pocket , re subj.
22:16 mircea_popescu well this has been a productive morning then.
22:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765209 << yeah, somehow it became the epicenter of vcritique.
22:19 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:06 mod6: my vtron has been discussed very much over the last 2+ years. i remember many disucssions where rules popped out.
22:19 asciilifeform iirc we had almost exactly this thread, with the tabs-spaces thing
22:20 mircea_popescu very substantially the same but formally different because no good form yet, so entirely useless (other than from historical pov)
22:20 mircea_popescu EXACT application of "idiots can not have ideas -- idea in hand of idiot is not idea."
22:21 asciilifeform sorta like in another thread re giving money to bears. just makes funnily shaped bear shit.
22:22 mircea_popescu for instance -- i did not observe then that "tab" makes 0 sense, entirely vt100.item to borrow your reference, and will not be maintained. CONTRARY to what i thought at the time, i don't like tabs, i like the thing tabs emulate, which is lisp autoindent
22:22 asciilifeform aaha
22:23 mircea_popescu this is very much the problem of thinking man, "i know what i like i just don't know what it is" ie http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765170
22:23 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somehow you jump from "my printer is shit, doesn't work properly" to "either magic number or throw out printer"
22:23 asciilifeform 'didja want 3ring binder, or 4ring, or cleaner desk, or to think moarclearly' per naggum
22:29 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765236 << no that was the different one, with the microscopy.
22:29 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:12 trinque: he was almost, maybe, sort of going to do an archiver and pdf-to-texter
22:30 asciilifeform lol the methscopy
22:30 asciilifeform was ( nominally... where IS his key ? ) d00d
22:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765251 << this is so fucking epic.
22:32 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:16 gabriel_laddel: training a NN on FG output to see if it trains faster so I can sell them
22:32 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-25#1742992 << the quite memorable lulthread
22:32 a111 Logged on 2017-11-25 00:24 gabriel_laddel: 1000x magnification seems unrealistic - that being said: if I crush some product, take hundreds of images of each sample & use them as input into a neural network along with a 1-10 (bunk-absolute fire) rating y'think it'll get trained to recognize the real deal?
22:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2015-10-13#1298079
22:32 a111 Logged on 2015-10-13 19:48 ascii_field: '...so the room would be empty!'
22:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah nah, was some other kid, had a whole pile of "nsa recognizes you for your not having done any work in x field" certs and whatnot.
22:33 asciilifeform he got the notion ( re nn convergence, not methscope, lol ) from ancient log, where asciilifeform described own finding
22:33 asciilifeform where, oddly, it works
22:33 asciilifeform good rng in fact lubricates convergence in all kinds of sims
22:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hm, kanzure ?
22:34 * mircea_popescu is persuased neural networks / expert systems / etc ai.mit nonsense is waste of tiem ; however we could put the difference between trng and prng in these terms : only one is useful for evolutionary work.
22:34 mircea_popescu possibly.
22:34 asciilifeform alphago runs on nn
22:35 mircea_popescu in a sense of nn whittled down to mean "here's this 1T bayesian array"
22:35 asciilifeform plus various special-purpose mechanisms even in asciilifeform
22:35 mircea_popescu this is a neural network in the sense frog has cns.
22:35 asciilifeform 's house
22:35 asciilifeform e.g. ocr
22:35 asciilifeform it works when used as prescribed.
22:36 asciilifeform nn is a very broad item, and properly speaking the 'training' is distinct from the mechanics of the 'neurons' per se
22:37 asciilifeform ( can do 'backpropagation', or 'genetic algo' to 'evolve' the params, or some other way )
22:38 asciilifeform backpropagation has no analogy in meat, incidentally
22:38 mircea_popescu right.
22:38 asciilifeform pretty sure we had this thread..
22:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765278 << teitelbaum gaon sez, excessive virtue still vicious. nothing wrong with a little of whatever now and again, i for that matter drink the occasional cup of coffee and so on. the problem's when it becomes a regular thing, "i am in X circumstance therefore must Y".
22:43 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:21 trinque: hey after mircea_popescu's various whallops on me about weed, I gave up daily caffeine even.
22:45 asciilifeform daily dope is simply a black hole for money, even if it dun do you in
22:45 asciilifeform the meat habituates
22:45 asciilifeform dope correctly !
22:45 mircea_popescu there's this lulzy "guy wrote 5 checks for $20 each every SINGLE day for three years" sorta stories from law enforcement.
22:46 mircea_popescu "did it not ever occur to you to get a week's supply ahead of time ?" "here's a $20 check"
22:46 asciilifeform ahahaha
22:47 asciilifeform ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-13#1750150 )
22:47 a111 Logged on 2017-12-13 01:01 asciilifeform: how to smoke -- is possibly the 1 item where the red man had right idea.
22:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: who would pay for dope with cheque?!
22:49 mircea_popescu myeah
22:53 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765700 << Danke schön. I'd like to escape the arid esl labyrinth so I've been slowly attempting to lerne Deutsch (still "daycare" level though); this may help to kill two birds with one stone. Looking like Kritik der reinen Vernunft would be my logical starting point
22:53 a111 Logged on 2018-01-06 01:49 mircea_popescu: and, for completeness : leaning german off kant is perfectly acceptable manner of learning german altogether, for the sufficiently intelligent ; much like learning greek off homer.
22:53 lobbes Also in the spirit of: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-24#1728257 !
22:53 a111 Logged on 2017-10-24 20:57 mircea_popescu: in languages as well as fucking, there's no disadvantage in starting directly with the master class.
22:55 mircea_popescu yeah seriously. failure of the esl mind is mostly ensured by a very broken evaluation of "success". take the brick in hand, enough achievement for the first day is to have managed to fucking hold it. yes, it's completely opaque to you. so what if it is. so are many things. see what can be cracked out of it ; there's no shortage of "science fiction" "magical realism" whatever in the actual world once one's you know, no longer
22:55 mircea_popescu deliberately blind. see what can be wrested out of this gesserit cube.
22:56 mircea_popescu "this makes no fucking sense" needn't be either scary or worrisome -- it's the fundamental, unviersal state of mankind anyway.
23:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765282 << there is that. and, as he points out, "lo! i moved!" etc.
23:01 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 19:22 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd bet d00d has spells of sobriety, he has afaik already outlived the expected life of a serious meth aficionado
23:01 mircea_popescu nothing wrong with people taking things in at their own speed. everyone does it regardless if there's anything wrong with it or no anyway.
23:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765384 << win.
23:04 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 20:26 asciilifeform: '... stack-based overflow in the function EkCheckCurrentCert. This function is called from TPM2_CreatePrimary with user controlled data - a DER encoded [6] endorsement key (EK) certificate stored in the NV storage....'
23:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765454 << imo disimprovement.
23:07 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 22:41 asciilifeform: so {[foo]}{[bar]} would then instead look like {[foo]}~{[bar]}_ grrrrrr
23:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765461 << it wasn't supposed to, was it ?
23:08 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 22:43 asciilifeform: patch on top of ch5 plox
23:08 asciilifeform aha. try as i might, original stands so far as best
23:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that q was misconceived, see further in.
23:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765537 << im just sitting here shaking my head. WTF ALF! talk to the topic!
23:12 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:18 trinque: the opacity of this question is by now baffling to me.
23:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765548 << there's no patching atop TWO patches omfg.
23:13 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:24 ben_vulpes: or to put it a different way, that one *must* create an invalid state in order to patch atop two divergent patches.
23:14 mircea_popescu ok this nonsense in the log is fucking infuriating.
23:14 mircea_popescu let's classify once for all fucking time!
23:16 mircea_popescu 1. problem S (alf's) is entirely spurious and not part of this confersation, go talk to dreamweaver about it ; 2. problem A (trinque's) : "if two patches with same antecedent touch disjunct filesets, how does establish which came first" ; 3. problem X ( ben_vulpes 's) : "if i totally sabotage v into a piece of shit entirely contrary to its everything, will you hit me in the head ?"
23:17 mircea_popescu problem S will not be considered ; problem X is resolved by answering yes. because god fucking help you, if your patch has two antecedents you are a heretic anathema.
23:18 mircea_popescu problem A has two possible legitimate answers : A.1 : introduce a further parentage chain (so patch does not discuss merely file hashes but also somehow a hash of prev patch) and A.2 : introduce a magic file which must (by protocol) be touched by all patches.
23:18 mircea_popescu through some discussion it emerged that A.1 and A.2 are not practically distinct, one just provides the memory for the implementation fo the other as a foremost feature.
23:18 mircea_popescu this is the discussion, proceed but proceed like sane fucking people, save me blood pressure.
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23:29 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
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23:29 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:38 asciilifeform: take for example http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected . in properly working v, it ONLY depends on db.cpp being a particular hash . and does NOT lock you into anything else being anything else in particular.
23:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765582 << every single time you lift something ; yup.
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23:30 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:39 asciilifeform: if instead it demanded that your tree, to apply it, be bitwise-identical to asciilifeform's tree when he made it -- you could only build on this patch if you reground ALL of EVERYONE's work every single fucking time
23:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765587 << v exists to permit you too 100/0 split "the monolith/the rest". so the world can therefore safely consists of multiple monoliths.
23:31 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:40 asciilifeform: think, if EVERY patch requires global regrind of all of world history, you ain't using v, may as well throw out all of the unnecessary equipment -- you're passing a monolithic turd around
23:31 mircea_popescu but yes, there is no other kind of code besides monolith ; i've had enough "bazaar" for three lifetimes of other people i don't particularly like ; and moreover code ambiguity is fucking nuts.
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23:32 mircea_popescu i'm gonna skip the rest of this nonsense, jesus f christ.
~ 21 minutes ~
23:53 * asciilifeform invites mircea_popescu to redraw picture seen in http://btcbase.org/patches . which incidentally is on 3rd year of looking exactly so, and mircea_popescu had plenty of time to barf.
23:54 asciilifeform ^ where just about EVERY patch has 2+ antecedents.
23:57 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765882 << there is no 'random' that so 'happens'. if hash matches -- the delta is valid. end of story. this is what v was about from day 1.
23:57 a111 Logged on 2018-01-06 04:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765580 << eh get the hell out of here, so you want someone to take that patch and put it into some random other tree which happens to have a db.cpp that matches its hash ? this is insanity on the level of early organ transplantation experiments.
23:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1765884 << very easy to write infinite cheques on OTHER people's time, yes.
23:59 a111 Logged on 2018-01-06 04:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765582 << every single time you lift something ; yup.
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