Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-11-06 | 2017-11-08 →
05:47 davout trade volume seems pretty low on all these ~100 btc/24h
05:49 davout buttfinex also has such a market with roughly the same volume figures
~ 52 minutes ~
06:41 davout meanwhile:
06:41 davout "This means that currently no funds can be moved out of the multi-sig wallets."
~ 52 minutes ~
07:33 shinohai BWAHAHAHAHA davout
07:41 davout who knows, maybe that leads to an "Ethereum Classic 2"
07:44 davout or maybe they'll grow used to having Ctrl+Z as a thing
07:45 shinohai Shit has more rollbacks than Walmart as it is.
~ 40 minutes ~
08:25 mircea_popescu multi sig was such a brilliant itdea.
08:28 shinohai Thanx Gavin!
~ 1 hours ~
09:28 davout according to unverified hearsay it seems that ~1% of the total mEth supply got accidentally'd
09:28 mircea_popescu just a flesh wound.
09:29 mircea_popescu it's important to be creative in any case. they can produce more eth at any time, but the experience was valuable.
09:29 mircea_popescu AND OTHER SUCH NONSENSE
09:30 shinohai "How to fail and make people liek it - By Vitalik Butterin"
09:32 shinohai You may remember Vitalik from other great books such as "How to run a quantum computing scam to raise capital for a crypto scam" and "Dress like a furfag and cook your own meth!"
09:33 mircea_popescu heh. i think quantum computing was abandoned because it was discovered it leaked CFC gasses which are bad for the ozone layer
09:33 mircea_popescu wait, wrong decade. it's not the 1990s anymore!
09:33 shinohai Ozone hole is shrinking!
09:34 asciilifeform in other lullies, bernstein exposes the item the original 'authors' sat on in >>>
09:34 a111 Logged on 2017-10-17 05:59 jurov: "The flaw resides in the Infineon-developed RSA Library version v1.02.013, specifically within an algorithm it implements for RSA primes generation. "
09:34 asciilifeform spoiler : infineon used method.
09:34 a111 Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem
09:35 asciilifeform 'This could even be a deliberate weakness with plausible deniability: "Oh, sorry, nobody warned us that 2 mod 11 was okay and 10 mod 11 wasn't."'
09:39 mircea_popescu heh
~ 49 minutes ~
10:28 asciilifeform i did say :
10:28 a111 Logged on 2017-10-08 00:16 asciilifeform: << this is a fundamentally wrong way to generate cryptographic primes. we had a thread about it,
10:29 asciilifeform any method of 'constructing' primes , rather than hunting for wild, is guilty until proven innocent of 1) constriction 2) bias
10:31 asciilifeform 'Further computations were consistent with the guess that p and q were being generated as powers of 65537 modulo L, where L was either the product of all primes through 691, or the product of all primes through 701.'
10:31 asciilifeform << b's commented coad.
~ 38 minutes ~
11:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so there.
11:17 * asciilifeform looks..
11:17 * asciilifeform unsurprised, lol
11:17 asciilifeform modular arithmetic .
11:18 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu's original point was correct, you do NOT want a small d -- but neither you want a small e, or obviously n, or ANYTHING small
11:18 asciilifeform no reason to. not on ffa, at any rate.
11:19 asciilifeform for 4096b rsa, use 4096b randomprime e; 2048b randomprime p, q.
11:19 asciilifeform ohai apeloyee
11:20 apeloyee hello
11:21 apeloyee I must say that I dont understand how "exponent 131074 reduces to exponent 2 somehow", and what CRT has to do with it
11:21 apeloyee (re ^^)
11:21 apeloyee
11:22 apeloyee << per bernstein, they didn't.
11:22 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 14:34 asciilifeform: spoiler : infineon used method.
11:22 asciilifeform apeloyee: q was re the effect of composite exponent
11:22 apeloyee I understood that much
11:23 apeloyee but how
11:23 asciilifeform apeloyee: did you read same bernstein as was linked ? pretty clearly pins 'constructed primes'
11:23 apeloyee NO U
11:23 apeloyee seriously.
11:24 asciilifeform what am i missing
11:25 apeloyee they calculated powers of 65537 modulo some primorial
11:26 asciilifeform how is this not 'constructed prime' ?
11:26 apeloyee it's not the same method as
11:26 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 14:34 a111: Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem
11:27 asciilifeform it is not the same exact algo, no. but it is same from my pov, in that it is NOT the 'find b-bit random R and test for primality, potentially forever, until found prime'
11:28 apeloyee the method, given uniformly distributed and independent remainders, generates uniformly distributed numbers modulo the primorial
11:28 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 14:34 a111: Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem
11:29 asciilifeform 1 problem is that perfect uniform distrib and perfectly independent rng bits, cannot be shown to exist physically.
11:29 asciilifeform the use of constructed primes, potentially amplifies small/temporary imperfections in the rng, into fatal
11:30 asciilifeform the other problem is that prime constructor proof may or may not fit-in-head. infineon's method probably seemed correct to various folx.
11:31 apeloyee perharps running rabin-miller "amplifies small/temporary imperfections in the rng, into fatal"
11:31 apeloyee at that point might as well give up
11:31 asciilifeform apeloyee: propose a hypothetical how ?
11:35 apeloyee can't. I was sarcastic, because I don't see how CRT construction can amplify, assuming not obviously broken/backdoored RNG. why won't long-range correlations kill mthe "pick random prime" method as well?
11:36 asciilifeform let's model the ideal prime-shitter. it would be an item that takes integer N , of whatever bitness, and produce the Nth prime ( or eggog if the Nth prime is bigger than the register bitness permitted. )
11:36 apeloyee ok
11:36 asciilifeform i.e. a 1:1 pipe from random ints to large primes.
11:37 asciilifeform to have a satisfactory constructor, it would have to be shown to reduce to this and exactly this.
11:38 apeloyee "pick random" is obviously not this
11:38 asciilifeform in particular, gotta show that no two inputs will produce the same prime
11:38 asciilifeform pick-random satisfies above.
11:39 apeloyee you don't believe in CRT?
11:39 asciilifeform also gotta show that no prime exists , in the given bitness width, that CANNOT be chosen.
11:39 asciilifeform what means believe-in-crt ?
11:39 asciilifeform i believe in the arithmetic, yes. but how to show that the two conditions i stated, hold ?
11:40 asciilifeform if apeloyee knows a proof for this, i'll read
11:41 asciilifeform but as i currently understand, my q reduces to 'find The Formula For Primes' (tm)(r), a millenium-long headache for mathematical folx , to this day unsolved.
11:44 apeloyee plox to qualify. you want a method to generate Nth prime, but accept the "pick random number until prime" , despite in not being the Nth prime generator, but no other methods?
11:45 asciilifeform i want a method, as stated above, where inputs map one-to-one and onto, the primes , up to the register width.
11:46 asciilifeform the random-rubbish followed by probabilistic test , satisfies this demand within the obvious limits of the test.
11:46 asciilifeform i can show that no 2 inputs will produce the same prime, trivially
11:47 asciilifeform and since i built the rng, i can also be quite certain that there is not such a prime that it will forever avoid generating.
11:47 apeloyee aha, so you're ok with the method produces junk, so long as the primes in range are equidistributed?
11:47 asciilifeform how is it 'junk' ?
11:47 asciilifeform equidistributed primes are what was asked for.
11:48 apeloyee "pick random" will usually yield a composite, which must then be filtered out.
11:48 asciilifeform this costs time, yes.
11:49 asciilifeform folx who are in a hurry, can parallelize.
11:49 asciilifeform ( it parallelizes infinitely )
11:49 apeloyee how many bits/s does your generator yield?
11:50 asciilifeform 7-8 kB/sec, depending on room temperature.
11:50 asciilifeform per unit.
11:50 asciilifeform ( many folx have half a dozen, or more )
11:50 apeloyee kilobyte?
11:50 asciilifeform aha
11:52 asciilifeform theoretically one can connect an unlimited # of'em to pc (in practice linux kernel starts behaving oddly when more than 7 serial devices, i found )
11:53 asciilifeform i am probably doomed to make a pci version, because of this, at some point. but so far not urgent itch.
12:01 asciilifeform incidentally it can probably be shown that you don't have to throw out ALL of the bits in a candidate R, when it is not found to be prime, and still not leak anything
12:01 asciilifeform but i have not yet tried this.
12:01 asciilifeform ( the koch method, of taking R and adding 2 to it until m-r says yes, trivially leaks )
12:03 asciilifeform what ought to do instead, is to rngize the bottom Q bits, where Q is log2(estimated prime gap at the current bitness, times severalfold engineering margin)
12:03 asciilifeform until passes.
12:05 asciilifeform ( exercise for n00bz : show that there is ALWAYS a prime between n and 2n, for n > 1. )
12:09 asciilifeform ( exercise #2 : show how many bits of input entropy are on avg. discarded by koch generator. )
12:13 asciilifeform unrelatedly, scihub seems to finally have broken, i get 11 'captchas' in a row, gave up
12:14 asciilifeform ( why is there EVER EVEN ONE ?! )
12:16 asciilifeform imho this is an idiocy that perma-discredits everyone even tangentially involved.
12:16 asciilifeform << see also.
12:16 a111 Logged on 2017-08-30 15:53 asciilifeform: 13:08 < kanzure> she wants to control the access in her own way
12:27 apeloyee so to recap, generates numbers in range [0, primorial-1]; it may yield a composite, but all outputs are equally likely, and all primes bigger than largest_prime_in_primorial and less than the primorial. Proof: since asciilifeform has admitted to believing in the statement of the Chinese Remainder Theorem ( ),...
12:27 a111 Logged on 2017-10-07 21:48 apeloyee: << alternatively, can *construct* numbers which don't have very small factors. pick a nonzero remainder mod 2, mod 3, ... mod largest-prime-fit-in-your-primorial and find what number of primorial is congruent to it using chinese remainder theorem
12:27 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 16:39 asciilifeform: i believe in the arithmetic, yes. but how to show that the two conditions i stated, hold ?
12:27 apeloyee ...then, by the CRT, there exists a bijection between all numbers in range [0, primorial-1] not divisible by any primes in the primorial, and the tuples of nonzero remainders from division by the primes. "numbers in range [0, primorial-1] not divisible by any primes in the primorial", obviously, includes all primes in said range (except those in the primorial). if the remainders mod 2, 3,...
12:27 apeloyee ......p_n are independent and uniformly distributed, then the probability of tuple of these being chosen is the same (by definition of independence), and because CRT gives a bijection, all outputs are equally likely. did I repeat myself enough?
12:28 apeloyee re
12:28 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:16 asciilifeform: imho this is an idiocy that perma-discredits everyone even tangentially involved.
12:28 asciilifeform apeloyee: can i persuade you to pseudocodize ?
12:28 asciilifeform would make eating, much easier.
12:28 apeloyee !#s "errything for phree"
12:28 a111 0 results for "\"errything for phree\"",
12:29 apeloyee you want sci-hub to wwork for phree?
12:29 asciilifeform how does it make bank from the captcha ?
12:29 asciilifeform ( lemme guess, spammers pay to farm theirs ? )
12:30 apeloyee how does it make bank from the captcha ? << it's just a proof of work. it's not unknown for sci-hub to ban etire countries also.
12:31 apeloyee !#s "errythingforphree"
12:31 a111 1 result for "\"errythingforphree\"",
12:31 asciilifeform re crt, if apeloyee thinks he has found The Formula For Primes, he should not settle for small change, oughta publish...
12:31 apeloyee I don't.
12:31 asciilifeform maybe i'm thick : what's the difference ?
12:32 apeloyee It's a method to generate a muber not divisible by small primes. Might be still divisible by large ones.
12:32 apeloyee *number
12:32 asciilifeform ahahahahahaha
12:32 asciilifeform so what's the use of this then ?
12:32 asciilifeform to set myself up to be nailed infineon-style ?!
12:32 asciilifeform nothx
12:32 apeloyee I still haven't heard how it will get you nailed.
12:33 asciilifeform > Might be still divisible by large ones.
12:33 apeloyee do miller-rabin on the results.
12:34 asciilifeform it's a fat pile of complexity, for a measely, what, 90% optimization.
12:34 asciilifeform i for one dun particularly care if keygenning takes a few hours.
12:35 apeloyee quit flipping from one opinion to another every few days
12:35 asciilifeform link to log or stfu
12:38 apeloyee
12:38 a111 Logged on 2017-10-05 19:38 asciilifeform: for the initial sieve ~prior~ to miller-rabin
12:38 apeloyee
12:38 a111 Logged on 2017-10-05 19:40 asciilifeform: trial division is dog slow vs gcd.
12:39 asciilifeform i have nothing against ~simple and OBVIOUSLY correct~ optimizations, apeloyee
12:39 asciilifeform and i am willing to make an effort and stretch muscles to expand my definition of 'obviously correct', but to a point.
12:44 apeloyee in fact, using evil, heretical software, calculated that this tries ~6.5 times less candidates for ~2048-bit primes compared to the pick-random-odd-number
12:44 asciilifeform i can believe
12:46 apeloyee well, is CRT nonwell, of cource I can't clain that CRT is obvious. But I think you're just allergic to it
12:46 apeloyee *claim
~ 35 minutes ~
13:21 asciilifeform not the crt per se, but that apeloyee's algo doesn't leak-via-timing, or bias, or avoid some class of prime, is not (yet) obvious to asciilifeform .
13:21 asciilifeform i'ma chew on it tho.
13:22 asciilifeform and yes i am in fact allergic to any algo that i do not immediately understand, because entire objective of ffa is to be correct-via-obviousness.
13:22 asciilifeform while at the same time usably fast. which is the engineering tension there.
13:23 apeloyee << this immediately smells like a magical voodoo invisibility potion
13:23 a111 Logged on 2017-11-04 18:37 asciilifeform: for same reason you an' i, have 2 eyes
13:23 asciilifeform apeloyee: how do you modulate-by-position if you don't have more than 1 position ?
13:24 asciilifeform conjecture was, that you can transmit below noise floor, and still receive by demodulating strictly positionally.
13:24 asciilifeform ( i have presently nfi if it is true )
13:33 apeloyee but you claimed "just 2", and not 3, 4...
13:34 asciilifeform it will work with >2, but afaik you only need 2.
13:40 apeloyee i could understand if having 2,3, 4,... transmitters progressively lowering the detection chance
13:40 apeloyee but "1 transmitter is visible, 2 are not" i find hard to believe
13:41 asciilifeform 1 , transmitting below noise floor, is equally invisible, but also gives no way to receive...
13:42 asciilifeform 2 is the bare minimum for a working ( again conjectured, whether it could work ) item.
13:42 asciilifeform naturally 22 is better. and 222 moar so.
13:44 asciilifeform 1 type of 'positionally modulated' radio, that is already very old tech, is satellite nav.
13:45 apeloyee didn't you describe a scheme for 1 transmitter? in each time interval, pick many cryptographically pseudo-random orthogonal waveforms, calculate a weighted sum, transmit. the weights encode information. can split into many transmitters in various places.
13:45 asciilifeform the difference is that the transmitters there physically move; but is immaterial for our purpose
13:46 asciilifeform apeloyee: positional mod is superset of that item
13:47 apeloyee no reason to only encode the signal in difference then.
13:48 asciilifeform reason is so that each station can be physically indistinguishable, from outside the door, from, e.g., a defective lift motor that arcs a bit
13:48 asciilifeform or similar object.
13:49 asciilifeform theoretically a positional modulator with a long enough span, could cover entire planet, with a few watt.
13:49 asciilifeform ( and that few watt, spread over entire 30MHz of shortwave )
13:50 apeloyee Do you have any data as to how distinguishable defective motors are? e.g. it's probably an impulse filtered with a min-phase filter. whereas fake motor probably won't be.
13:50 apeloyee the transmitter disguised as motor
13:50 asciilifeform what's to stop it from being exactly same spectrally as motor, if that's what i want ?
13:51 apeloyee and phase?
13:51 asciilifeform and phase
13:52 asciilifeform so long as i can force the 2 ends of the line, to differ in such a way as to carry information
13:52 apeloyee again, I have no data, but I suspect you won't be able to encode much data into it
13:52 asciilifeform if any -- then objective met
13:52 asciilifeform even if it's a bit per hour
13:53 asciilifeform submariners reportedly live with a bit or so per sec.
13:53 apeloyee simpler to just transmit 1W over 30MHz. Or 100mW. etc.
13:53 asciilifeform then they find you.
13:53 apeloyee and have your transmitter move, lest it be detected by correlation attacks.
13:53 asciilifeform then i'ma transmit 100kW, why not
13:53 asciilifeform but different problem !
13:54 apeloyee shannon-hartley theorem. max bit per watt is when you sit far below noise floor
13:55 apeloyee 100kW transmit only logarithmically more, but detection easiness in proportional to power
13:55 apeloyee *is proportional
13:56 asciilifeform i dun get how the 2 items can be separate
13:57 asciilifeform if easier to detect for enemy, easier to detect for intended recipient. and vice-versa. neh ?
13:58 apeloyee yep!
13:58 asciilifeform re 30MHz, i could even be entirely wrong, and unusable , because e.g. <7 has vastly different propagation characteristics, day/night/winter/etc vs 7..15Mhz, and in turn from 15..30
13:59 apeloyee don't pop up above noise floor, because bit-per-chance-of-detection drops off rapidly
13:59 apeloyee hence no 100kW
14:00 apeloyee and where you get 100kW on a moving object
14:00 apeloyee anyway
14:00 asciilifeform from diesel, lol
14:00 asciilifeform ( iirc mircea_popescu has a 800kW diesel )
14:00 asciilifeform but my whole q was whether it is possible to do better than the 100yr state-of-the-art of 'keep moving yet transmitter and be prepared to lose it' thing
14:01 apeloyee no magical invisibility potions.
14:02 apeloyee can just decrease the chance of detection.
14:02 asciilifeform nope, but purely physical invisibilities are a-ok. as radio per se is invisible to savages who never heard of radio.
14:02 apeloyee to a reasonable value, but there's probably no escape from "keep moving"
14:02 asciilifeform naturally enemy who gets a hold of your receiver, or whatever secret param, can detect.
14:02 asciilifeform q is whether is is possible to turn this param into the equiv of rsa key.
14:02 asciilifeform without which -- no detection.
14:03 apeloyee e.g.balloon tx'ing can masquerade as thunder
14:03 asciilifeform not even from standing across the street.
14:03 apeloyee becasue moves
14:03 asciilifeform hypothetically. problem is to make a balloon stay up for any reasonable length of time, and not loudly show up on radars wherever it goes
14:04 apeloyee if stands across the street, will detect. forget about it.
14:04 asciilifeform mega-argument
14:04 apeloyee srsly you're asking for invis potion.
14:04 asciilifeform go and detect the static spark i just generated. from across the room, much less street.
14:05 apeloyee you have managed thus to transmit how much?
14:05 apeloyee in bits
14:05 asciilifeform 1. if you knew exactly when and where to look.
14:05 asciilifeform single-photon per bit has been demoed, in ideal conditions.
14:07 asciilifeform at any rate, i'm not convinced that the problem is solvable, apeloyee may well be right. but i also remain unconvinced that it is unsolvable.
14:07 apeloyee an' if you keep sparking next to detector across the street, you will Have Problems. because have to transmit enough to rsa.
14:07 asciilifeform that there's the whole noise floor thing, neh.
14:08 apeloyee you stipulated detector's across the street. can do direction finding.
14:09 asciilifeform also i suspect that 'avoid gestapo' is a very small superset of the much harder 'physically undetectable'. for example, if you pirate on an already unusably-polluted band, you would probably never Have Problems for so long as you are not distinguishable from the usual polluters ( e.g. led light bulbs and other filth )
14:09 asciilifeform *subset
14:11 asciilifeform a block of flats, full of led bulbs, quite possible is the electrical equiv of a 10watt sw station
14:11 apeloyee but also hard to hear you over all that noise. hence my "there's a fixed number of bits you can transmit before detection, assuming given ratio of intended recipient capabilities to enemy capabilities"
14:12 apeloyee and assuming you stay put of course
14:12 apeloyee so don't
14:12 apeloyee move. preferably unpredictably.
14:12 apeloyee (to the enemy)
14:13 asciilifeform ideally said movement would consist of large number of geographically-dispersed stations, taking turns in a sequence not known to the enemy.
14:14 asciilifeform this is where i started in the gedankenexperiment. from there went 'why not to have the sequence per se be the information carrier'.
14:14 apeloyee if they're sleeper stations.
14:15 asciilifeform well yes, in the sense that they spend the vast majority of time, silent
14:15 asciilifeform (receiving. and without leaking oscillator or whatever 20th century idiocy)
14:15 apeloyee why not all of 'em, at 1/N power
14:15 asciilifeform because then you're back to the 'if they're standing next to you, you're found' item.
14:17 apeloyee the enemy doesn't realistically have resource to stand next to everyone. see bitcoin: can't make rewriting history impossible, lets make it unprofitable.
14:18 asciilifeform everyone - no. the few thou known-вредители -- totally
14:18 apeloyee and to detect you, has to stand next ot you during transmission of significant number of bits
14:19 apeloyee be a true вредитель and sabotage the spy device's uplink. they need a phat one.
14:19 asciilifeform not clear that it does
14:19 asciilifeform most of the processing is local
14:22 apeloyee if the enemy is besieging you and watching you all the time, not much you can do
14:23 apeloyee if you can't even plant a relay somewhere nearby
14:23 asciilifeform if the enemy, on account of some internal psychosis, refrains from simply breaking in and shooting, there is plenty to do
14:23 asciilifeform a serious sw relay is not physically small, cannot hide in a tree or similar.
14:24 apeloyee serious is...?
14:24 asciilifeform can be heard across atlantic.
14:24 asciilifeform anything short of that, is a waste of time.
14:25 asciilifeform i.e. 3-4 ionospheric reflections.
14:26 apeloyee sieges are generally followed by an assault, unless th3e besieged surrender; to hope otherwise is simply suicide
14:27 asciilifeform asciilifeform has nfi why he's been standing in line for years, to be gassed. evidently it is a scarce and rationed thing, like everything else in usa.
14:28 asciilifeform and those who want to be gassed faster, gotta work harder, earn it..
14:31 asciilifeform upstack : a 1w transmitter , under right conditions, can be heard across atlantic. tricky bit is how to extend this to belownoisefloor; and how to make in 'wrong' conditions.
14:32 apeloyee most of the processing is local << if a known вредитель, that means siege. otherwise they need to exchange ~approx as much data as can be fit in spectrum. obv can't reuse the very same spectrum. hence lasers/sound/cables. can be sabotaged. them low noise receiver must cost quite some $$$.
14:35 asciilifeform if apeloyee or whoever wants to get past the tank column, mine field, etc. and demolish the receiver -- i'll clap, what.
14:35 asciilifeform but it is quite different problem from the original thread's.
14:35 asciilifeform otoh if it is in the house next to mine, i have no way of knowing it
14:36 asciilifeform what, gotta break into every single neighbour and see if they have one, lol
14:36 apeloyee understand, they can't keep sieges on 10,000 вредителей. will go bankrupt.
14:36 asciilifeform they're already bankrupt.
14:36 asciilifeform yet folx keep showing up to work.
14:37 asciilifeform because per orlov 'collapse never happens for everyone, it only happens for a particular you, one at a time'
14:39 asciilifeform existing gestapo aside, consider also future enemy. because even when the empires of today are forgotten, hogging sw spectrum will be a simple way to make new enemy.
14:39 asciilifeform it's a limited resource and whatever crowned idiots sit on whatever thrones, will claim it
14:45 asciilifeform incidentally the problem as originally stated, 'communicate across planet with a few watt, reliably, unjammably, and as close to undetectably as possible' was obsession of usg in 1940s-50s; and was declared 'solved enough' when satellite was built.
14:45 asciilifeform asciilifeform's original q could be restated as 'how to achieve same thing as satellite, but without any'
14:47 apeloyee an' they have 30000 SDRs to keep the siege? physical objects?
14:47 asciilifeform it's what, 10bux.
14:47 asciilifeform plus a good number are in orbit, so narrow down where to look quite effectively.
14:47 apeloyee an' operators. robots not yet functional enough.
14:47 apeloyee gotta emplace 'em
14:48 asciilifeform the 'amateur radio' people stoolie for free.
14:48 asciilifeform << e.g.
14:48 apeloyee not next door.
14:48 asciilifeform quite likely next door.
14:48 apeloyee and you'll know about 'em. antennas.
14:49 asciilifeform what, i gotta kill every old d00d with a discone on his roof now ?
14:49 asciilifeform what if in his attic ?
14:49 asciilifeform it works just as well in attic.
14:49 apeloyee remember, 1 antenna not enough.
14:49 asciilifeform so one on each house on each side.
14:49 asciilifeform why not.
14:50 asciilifeform quite likely 1 on 3 sides, each a few km from house, suffices.
14:50 apeloyee gotta exchange among them all traffic.
14:50 apeloyee or they must send strgraight to enemy
14:50 apeloyee via a phat pipe.
14:50 asciilifeform i dun see why this is necessary
14:51 asciilifeform what happens is that 5-6 pensioners notice 'noise' and get in their trucks and df for usg for free, for a month, if it takes a month
14:51 apeloyee hogging sw spectrum will be a simple way to make new enemy. << can reach a mutially beneficial agreement. the more transmitters, the more channel capacity, until the distortion is above noise.
14:52 asciilifeform now this theoretically tru
14:52 asciilifeform and i've proposed it here -- relays passing rsa-signed packets on.
14:53 apeloyee df for usg for free << correlation attacks work but are neither easy nor cheap. if they only exchange 10% of the traffic, will take 10x as long to find you, unless they know the key
14:54 asciilifeform was still speaking of the scenario with 1 station
14:54 asciilifeform ( currently there are 0. )
14:56 apeloyee and? understand I claimed that it's possible to find you, not that it's easy or cheap
14:56 asciilifeform personally i'd be satisfied with a 'it costs all the king's horses and all the king's men' item.
14:57 apeloyee yes, involves capturing and comparing traffic from multiple points, because each individual bit gives very little confidence
14:58 apeloyee if you miss some time period, got to capture moar.
14:58 asciilifeform could restate problem as 'maximize # of bits that can be sent before you gotta move'
14:58 apeloyee transmit slowly enough. enemy's cost to proportional to time
14:59 asciilifeform can also restate as 'how slowly'
15:00 apeloyee this, yes.
15:00 apeloyee 'maximize # of bits that can be sent before you gotta move' << this mostly involves choice of locality. "check if the map matches the locality. If it doesn't - change the locality."(R)(C)
15:01 asciilifeform lol
15:01 asciilifeform observe, the problem dun exist if you already have your own pyongyang and can happily put a megawatt station there and invite whoever objects, to pound sand up his arse
15:02 asciilifeform q is, wat do for people who dun have a pyongyang.
15:02 asciilifeform e.g. ru horizon radar , eats what, half a MHz of sw, and betcha they have a massive garbage bin to put the complaints from 50 years into.
15:03 asciilifeform orig thread is most properly concerning small radios, deep in enemy territory.
15:05 asciilifeform the empires solved this with satellite.
15:05 asciilifeform ( which will last maybe 40 min. when actual war, but nobody seems to give a shit. )
15:06 apeloyee more crackpot ideas: live in flyshitville, can then have ample warning about enemy detection equipment, and plenty of RF emission by and neighbors' equipment to hide behind ( but few neighbors, important for SNR)
15:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu iirc actually does this.
15:07 asciilifeform whole mountain.
15:07 asciilifeform with multi-km of jungle around.
15:08 asciilifeform it has up side, and down ( e.g. )
15:08 a111 Logged on 2017-08-30 20:08 mircea_popescu: and the shower has a pair of buttons : if you increase the hot water debit, this drops pressure for the hot pump, which kicks in, dropping pressure for the main pump, which kicks in. and vice-versa.
15:09 asciilifeform a budget-model pyongyang, could say.
15:13 apeloyee more: set up a site, bemoaning "radio intruders" on $band, stream from several nearby radios on it. the recipient can then improve SNR by subtracting whatever interference (from your POV), or estimate atmospheric conditions
15:13 apeloyee re above, at least have a hidden relay in Flyshit Forest
15:14 apeloyee better several
15:14 asciilifeform with very very long mains cable, lol
15:14 apeloyee if 1W is enough...
15:15 asciilifeform 1w on empty band, with just-so sunspot cycle, etc. was on at least 1 occasion picked up across atlantic.
15:15 asciilifeform this is separate item from 'can do on demand' tho.
15:17 apeloyee see above re execrable efficiency of classic modes.
15:17 asciilifeform year-round, day/night on crowded band prolly wants multi-kw.
15:17 asciilifeform but yes.
15:18 asciilifeform also must note that if the relay is controlled via radio, you've re-created orig problem in miniature.
15:20 apeloyee if you needed 1W before, add a relay half-way, need 0.25W for you and relay nao. generally private relay should be a lot closer to sender. needless to say relay must re-modulate.
15:21 apeloyee and preferably store-and-forward at opportune atmospheric conditions.
15:21 asciilifeform sorta how i got to the positional modulator thing -- can you take advantage of the fact of having 2+ dispersed stations.
15:21 asciilifeform for the tx process per se.
15:22 asciilifeform as for atmospheric conditions, station has no way of knowing them
15:22 asciilifeform it can only send (or not), is all it can do
15:23 asciilifeform ( the british-style 'can i hear bbc?' nonsense, i will dismiss out of hand, no externals plox )
15:24 apeloyee can add a phase offset so that they are in-phase at receiver. N stations, more than N times SNR increase, but opens to attacks based on partial knowledge
15:24 apeloyee no externals plox << opportunistic use is a thing
15:24 asciilifeform it's a thing until it isn't
15:24 asciilifeform otherwise i'd have started the thread with unsecured satellite relays ( which do currently exist )
15:26 asciilifeform or, more elementarily, 'wardriving' ( 802.11 crypto was broken to death quite recently, note )
15:26 asciilifeform but these rely on existing infrastructure, like flea relies on dog. asciilifeform's q was specifically re self-contained structure.
15:27 apeloyee consider that the enemy will certainly take advantage of your willful ignorance of atmospheric conditions (as known from bbc,etc), as you will up the power
15:27 asciilifeform just as he will take advantage of having airplane, and satellite, and armies, etc.
15:27 asciilifeform q is what is the best that can be done with simply a radio.
15:28 asciilifeform once hypothetical net has multiple stations on various continents, it will have its own idea of atmospheric conditions. but not before.
15:28 asciilifeform before that it only has what crumbs enemy throws from the table.
15:29 asciilifeform ( i wouldn't put it past'em to 'technical glitch' and turn off bbc for a few min. to get you to up your wattage, say )
15:30 asciilifeform see, for instance, the ancient thread where we anathemized ntp.
15:32 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
15:33 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7040.87, vol: 13438.87141142 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7027.7, vol: 41358.63189668 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7049.0, vol: 3292.73922678 | Volume-weighted last average: 7031.95416165
~ 15 minutes ~
15:48 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> ( i wouldn't put it past'em to 'technical glitch' and turn off bbc for a few min. to get you to up your wattage, say ) << They do it to comcast
15:48 asciilifeform moar famously, to nasdaq
15:48 BingoBoingo Also
15:49 asciilifeform <<
15:49 a111 Logged on 2017-07-04 03:09 asciilifeform: in other unsurprises, 'Corrupt data that accidentally flowed out of a NASDAQ systems test caused the share prices...'
15:49 asciilifeform and prior.
15:49 BingoBoingo For a while big mediterranean cables were snipped similarly to likely same effect
15:49 asciilifeform it's a regular thing.
15:50 asciilifeform but there are still occasional folx who seem to think 'But They Wouldn't...'
15:50 asciilifeform they would.
15:51 asciilifeform we're speaking of the same empire who did live-fire biowar tests on own population, in the subways, 1950s
15:51 asciilifeform and other joys.
15:52 asciilifeform not only is 'turn off bbc/nasdaq/ntp to Help Nail A Terrorist' an unremarkable proposition in comparison, but prolly has existing, fully-robotic infrastructure ready to roll.
15:52 asciilifeform !#s kill switch
15:52 a111 18 results for "kill switch",
15:53 asciilifeform hm, nothing pertinent in there. odd.
15:54 asciilifeform they're happy to fly boeings into sea / towers / etc. remotely. nobody will even fart at ntp/bbc/etc.
15:59 asciilifeform meanwhile, in the pleasures of overflowsandpointerslang ,
16:08 asciilifeform << commentary.
16:16 BingoBoingo Oh my
~ 21 minutes ~
16:37 shinohai <<< Is my Romanian really that terrible, or are they calling a meme an "anarchist organization" ?
16:39 asciilifeform i dun reddit, so cannot say, meme or organization etc
16:41 shinohai Nah, kekistan is a 4chan meme:
16:49 asciilifeform 'That day, Polygon[13] and Kotaku[12] published articles calling the Kekistan flag an “alt-right” and “white nationalist” symbol' << lol
~ 19 minutes ~
17:08 asciilifeform meanwhile in world of orlols,
~ 38 minutes ~
17:47 mircea_popescu << for completeness i originally read "largest prime factor", and intuitively thought i see the proof, but meanwhile that also collapsed.
17:47 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 16:21 apeloyee: I must say that I dont understand how "exponent 131074 reduces to exponent 2 somehow", and what CRT has to do with it
17:49 mircea_popescu << finite formula.
17:49 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 16:41 asciilifeform: but as i currently understand, my q reduces to 'find The Formula For Primes' (tm)(r), a millenium-long headache for mathematical folx , to this day unsolved.
17:50 asciilifeform i.e. generator of nth prime in O(1) time. nobody's got one and i don't expect anyone will.
17:51 mircea_popescu << no, actually : should generate new prime by adding a byte to the extant number that failed on a PROBABILITY based index. ie, adding to offset 0 much less probable than adding to offset 4090
17:51 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:03 asciilifeform: what ought to do instead, is to rngize the bottom Q bits, where Q is log2(estimated prime gap at the current bitness, times severalfold engineering margin)
17:51 mircea_popescu in general so after 16773120 bits were produced by FG, 4096 were added to last bit and 1 to first. pyramidfixer.
17:52 asciilifeform afaik all of the bits are equally likely to 'need flipping'
17:52 asciilifeform but i have no proof of this yet.
17:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not so, because the gap's a cone not a rectangle
17:53 asciilifeform i'ma have to chew on this.
17:53 mircea_popescu << because you keep clicking on them.
17:53 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:14 asciilifeform: ( why is there EVER EVEN ONE ?! )
17:53 asciilifeform i load 1-2 / week, lol
17:55 mircea_popescu <<< bwahaha
17:55 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:27 apeloyee: ......p_n are independent and uniformly distributed, then the probability of tuple of these being chosen is the same (by definition of independence), and because CRT gives a bijection, all outputs are equally likely. did I repeat myself enough?
17:57 mircea_popescu << let them learn how to fucking use technological civilisation, get a deedbot account and fucking charge like sane people.
17:57 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:29 apeloyee: you want sci-hub to wwork for phree?
17:57 mircea_popescu or whatever, if they don't feel like it, like eg ben_vulpes doesn't for his paste service, let them not to
17:58 mircea_popescu but otherwhise there's no excuse available to the chuchka that "washing is too hard and besides rubbing against a tree trunk is a close approximation"
17:59 asciilifeform the scihub thing isn't even sure what it wants to be , 13337 w4r3z, or 'service'
17:59 asciilifeform this is the fate of all 'we don't have an ideology' derps
18:00 asciilifeform bobbing about like shit in icehole.
18:00 mircea_popescu it wants to be whatever usg's silicon valley politruks appear to be willing to put stalin's notes behind that season.
18:00 mircea_popescu "pivot" being the anglo word for this.
18:01 mircea_popescu << i still don't follow how you figure the approach elides some primes.
18:01 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 17:39 asciilifeform: i have nothing against ~simple and OBVIOUSLY correct~ optimizations, apeloyee
18:01 asciilifeform it is more that i cannot prove to my satisfaction that it does not skew the distribution .
18:01 asciilifeform nor give some segments of the input bitstring more influence over the output than others.
18:02 asciilifeform nor emit information re the input or output via timing sidechannel.
18:02 mircea_popescu i suppose at this juncture a moderately interesting item would be to run some for loops and see.
18:02 asciilifeform see what ?
18:02 mircea_popescu numeric methods to the rescue. wtf are computers even for amirite.
18:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how the histogram of the result looks.
18:02 asciilifeform effect too small to ever observe experimentally, can still kill you if enemy finds it.
18:02 asciilifeform which is why cryptography is NOT an experimental science.
18:03 mircea_popescu but effect large enough to observe experimentally was observed experimentally.
18:03 asciilifeform has no bearing on the ones that are not.
18:03 mircea_popescu hence "moderately interesting".
18:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you're not proving it safe, you're examining if you can prove it unsafe.
18:03 asciilifeform possibly interesting, could reveal that 'obvious problem is obvious' but not beyond.
18:03 asciilifeform aha.
18:03 mircea_popescu more than nothing. for all the idle cycles being burned erryday...
18:03 asciilifeform 'testing reveals only presence of bugs, never absence' etc.
18:04 mircea_popescu tbh, by comparison with the volume of spurious strings pasted into shitsites, the amount of idle for loops executed to date seems dismall. less reddit more foring.
18:04 asciilifeform lol but the empty loops in microshit!1111
18:04 asciilifeform y'know, the ones they occasionally remove, to make fast!11
18:07 mircea_popescu << for the record, these were a lot more common in soviet union than in present days.
18:07 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 18:48 asciilifeform: reason is so that each station can be physically indistinguishable, from outside the door, from, e.g., a defective lift motor that arcs a bit
18:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they've been displaced by 'modern' crapola, e.g. led light bulbs, 'power line ethernet', etc
18:07 mircea_popescu what IS however overwhelmingly present in su of today is the howl of the newstyle ligthtbulb balancing circuits.
18:07 mircea_popescu right.
18:07 mircea_popescu the lights especially.
18:07 asciilifeform they nuke sw reception ~entirely
18:07 asciilifeform for km+.
18:08 asciilifeform ( at least in the classical 'i want my orders from moscow' type of sw )
18:10 mircea_popescu << my car actually has 160kW powerplant installed.
18:10 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:00 apeloyee: and where you get 100kW on a moving object
18:10 asciilifeform lol even mine
18:10 mircea_popescu ikr
18:10 asciilifeform ( tricky to get that 160 out as dc current tho )
18:10 mircea_popescu btw, why the fuck don't there exist wheel-dynamos ?
18:10 asciilifeform my alternator's good for 3-4kW
18:11 mircea_popescu i want an unit which lifts up the bridge, plugs into the car as if it were a wheel, and then simply converts.
18:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they do, asciilifeform's father designed one when he was my current age
18:11 asciilifeform test stand machine
18:11 asciilifeform sorta like gigantic treadmill.
18:11 mircea_popescu yes but i mean, on sale as a product.
18:11 asciilifeform it is probably buyable actually
18:11 mircea_popescu park your car, put out 50kW or w/e the conversion yielkds.
18:11 mircea_popescu i never saw one
18:11 asciilifeform or rather, a modern non-orc incarnation
18:11 asciilifeform inquire at 'pollution test' equip vendors
18:12 mircea_popescu that thing is like 1.5mn and the size of a room
18:12 asciilifeform that's how big it'd be
18:12 mircea_popescu i don't want that crap. i want a unit the size of washing machine.
18:12 mircea_popescu compact, and ready to go in back of truck
18:12 asciilifeform the gearbox is massive loss
18:12 mircea_popescu not that massive.
18:12 mircea_popescu at least on good quality german makes, it's not. i dunno about toyota nissan
18:13 asciilifeform quite massive from pov of 'i want to make my auto into dynamo'
18:13 mircea_popescu that's not what i want. i want a washingmachine dynamo i can put in the back of the truck and take to middle of nowhere for tailgate party with megawatt power available.
18:14 asciilifeform prolly easier to perma-mod the truck. see what the cement mixer people do.
18:14 asciilifeform ( takeoff on rear differential, iirc )
18:14 mircea_popescu how would the perma-modded truck fucking drive to there ?
18:14 mircea_popescu no, no. convertible.
18:14 asciilifeform well yes convertible, there's a clutch
18:14 mircea_popescu i guess. but welding the washing machine into the truck bed seems meh.
18:15 asciilifeform BingoBoingo may have the exact recipe, this is a thing welders, cement people, etc. actually do.
18:15 mircea_popescu ya but partyers are apparently idiots.
18:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu often throws >3kW party ?
18:15 mircea_popescu carry little piddly engine when has proper engine under hood.
18:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes.
18:16 mircea_popescu for one thing, inductive load is generally 3x the rated draw. 3kw is not a fucking ac unit for instance.
18:16 asciilifeform tru!
18:16 mircea_popescu and most of the weight of the 30kg generator that needs a fuckming crane to move comfortably is the fucking engine, which guess what, i already have.
18:17 asciilifeform the 'hybrid' crackpot autos, incidentally, have proper gen
18:17 mircea_popescu and much better than any fucking converted lawnmower they sell as generator, for that matter.
18:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i tried like 5 diff ones, they're all shit.
18:17 asciilifeform oh hm really ? the 'prius' etc
18:17 * asciilifeform not tried
18:17 mircea_popescu basically a slightly overgrown common alternator, like fit for a truck, but put on car and hurr durr we have hybrids
18:17 mircea_popescu no you don't, you have a truck alternator on a shitty nissan.
18:18 asciilifeform the disgraceful thing is that they still have gearboxes
18:18 asciilifeform ( vs motor-per-wheel )
18:18 asciilifeform actual hybrid (e.g. sov mining trucks) had motor-in-wheel.
18:18 ben_vulpes take out that drivetrain and they'll blow over in the wind
18:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: this is tru of all plasticars
18:19 asciilifeform incl the porches etc
18:20 mircea_popescu ^
18:20 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes gets it. the have the zamak because cheapest answer to dynamic problems.
18:20 mircea_popescu and motor per wheel works on you know, 50ton tatra mining truck.
18:21 ben_vulpes plus gotta reengineer differentials in software if yr going motor per wheel
18:21 ben_vulpes not intractable, just more complicated than bolting a muxer to the driveshaft.
18:21 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it is why it wasn't done. they literally cannot afford even one simple piece of correct soft.
18:21 * ben_vulpes still a fan of the wrightspeed/volt model of onboard generation and electric drivetrain
18:22 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: yeah obcs
18:22 ben_vulpes obvs*
18:22 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: aka sov mining truck. and it works.
18:22 asciilifeform and the motors scale down. but needs correct soft.
18:22 ben_vulpes and how; wrightspeed has mega boner-inducing turbine generator
18:23 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> the gearbox is massive loss Internal friction in motor pistons ~50% loss, so what?
18:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dynamometer. e.g.
18:23 asciilifeform ( not all room-sized and stationary. can get on truck bed. )
18:23 asciilifeform terrible imho way to generate current. but would work.
18:24 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo may have the exact recipe, this is a thing welders, cement people, etc. actually do. << Called a "power take off" Standard issue on tractors. Special order on trucks.
18:26 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> ( vs motor-per-wheel ) << requires more software for traction control when you have all of the torque starting from 0
18:26 asciilifeform lolwat
18:26 asciilifeform you get as much or little torque as you want, motors take pwm
18:26 ben_vulpes more perfectly correct software to write.
18:27 mircea_popescu hanbot
18:27 ben_vulpes noob will hammer throttle, wheels will lose traction ~instantly
18:27 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it isn't so difficult for ignoramus to wreck an ordinary auto, either
18:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that pos goes over the wheel, bs. i want to bolt it on instead of the wheel!
18:29 asciilifeform ideally you'd have the rotor attached to the drive shaft; by default stator is disconnected. when you want to turn the auto into generator, you put the thing in neutral, undo the clutch, and put on gas (ideally has 'cruise control' throttle)
18:29 asciilifeform so no manipulations with wheels.
18:30 asciilifeform this would be a spiffy thing, welders et al would buy.
18:31 mircea_popescu i guess. though im not sure i want to perma-carry the generator coils.
18:31 asciilifeform not so heavy.
18:31 asciilifeform but theoretically even this, could be made detachable.
18:31 mircea_popescu i'd like a car like that, insteadof the "planet saving" bullshit.
18:31 asciilifeform metoo
18:32 asciilifeform would go handily with the 13337 pirate sw set.
18:32 mircea_popescu or with everything else.
18:32 mircea_popescu charge tesla by running mercedes so the hipsters can hipster
18:33 asciilifeform other thing re 'hybrids' that asciilifeform never understood, is why to have a rotary engine at all !
18:33 asciilifeform can just as easily have linear coils on pistons
18:33 mircea_popescu have 20 meter high inflatable jumpything in middle of nowhere
18:33 mircea_popescu etc
18:33 asciilifeform why suffer the loss on the crankshaft.
18:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they had one of those at 'banat fair' thing ! ( though it was plugged into mains )
18:35 mircea_popescu myeah.
18:36 mircea_popescu << had, in ag. and yes it was readily roadable, took basically a semi tractor head to move.
18:36 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:00 asciilifeform: ( iirc mircea_popescu has a 800kW diesel )
18:37 asciilifeform they come in standard railroad size too
18:37 asciilifeform ( afaik same item, just diff carriages )
18:37 mircea_popescu exactly, goes in rr box
18:40 mircea_popescu << very this much.
18:40 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:02 apeloyee: to a reasonable value, but there's probably no escape from "keep moving"
18:44 mircea_popescu << this is a maintenance nightmare. the fundamental reason girls get married off is that it's much more efficient to maintain a station that works rather than to maintain a station that doesn't work.
18:44 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:15 asciilifeform: well yes, in the sense that they spend the vast majority of time, silent
18:44 asciilifeform wasn't meant to be 'kept in attics gathering dust', but simply low duty cycle - as in, e.g., 1ms per hour
18:44 asciilifeform and different msec for each unit.
18:45 asciilifeform triangulation nightmare.
18:45 mircea_popescu << this is a doubtful proposition, as the enemy is basically "idiots", and much like nature having much more energy to burn than you do, idiots are much more affixed to their idiotarian ideology than you will ever be to yours.
18:45 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:17 apeloyee: the enemy doesn't realistically have resource to stand next to everyone. see bitcoin: can't make rewriting history impossible, lets make it unprofitable.
18:45 mircea_popescu they -- for lack of alternative.
18:46 asciilifeform aha, i can easily see usg df iron being mandated in cabletv boxes or similar.
18:46 asciilifeform 'help us nail Terrorists'
18:47 mircea_popescu or even silently.
18:47 asciilifeform well naturally silently
18:47 mircea_popescu "this is the new consensus-community developed standard"
18:47 asciilifeform how often do they mandate something loudly and with fanfare.
18:47 asciilifeform fwiw there is already a wifi set in ~every isp-issued kit in usa. which is basically a sdr
18:49 asciilifeform good many cellphones ship with 'digital tv' chipset which is exactly sdr
18:49 asciilifeform ( the 'rtl' dongle sdr aficionados ~all use, started life as 'tv' )
18:50 mircea_popescu << this is a funny application of the 7 wonders of socialism. dja know that bit ?
18:50 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 19:36 asciilifeform: yet folx keep showing up to work.
18:50 asciilifeform 'we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us' ?
18:53 mircea_popescu ledmme fish it out.
18:53 * asciilifeform brb
18:55 mircea_popescu 1. full employment ; 2. notwitstanding full employment, no work being done ever observed ; 3. notwithstanding no work being done ever observed, all plans realised > 100% ; 4. notwithstanding all plans always overfulfilled, no useful products ever on the open market ; 5. notwithstanding no products ever on open market, everyone well supplied ; 6. notwithstanding everyone well supplied, everyone always stealing ; 7. notwithstan
18:55 mircea_popescu ding everyone always stealing, nothing ever went missing.
18:58 mircea_popescu << there's exactly zero incentive to plan for actual war for the obvious reason : 0 survival rate of current socialisms in case of war.
18:58 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 20:05 asciilifeform: ( which will last maybe 40 min. when actual war, but nobody seems to give a shit. )
18:59 mircea_popescu << almost!
18:59 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 20:09 asciilifeform: a budget-model pyongyang, could say.
19:01 mircea_popescu << why not ? cheap solution, passive array, measure em interference.
19:01 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 20:22 asciilifeform: as for atmospheric conditions, station has no way of knowing them
19:03 mircea_popescu << might lead the british "nuclear submarine"/crock of shit to discover it couldn't actually launch even if it wanted to.
19:03 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 20:29 asciilifeform: ( i wouldn't put it past'em to 'technical glitch' and turn off bbc for a few min. to get you to up your wattage, say )
19:03 mircea_popescu or did they give up on the pretense meanwhile
19:05 mircea_popescu << to begin with, they're calling a few hundred people "a manifestation". ro press entirely divorced with any sort of recognizable reality for many years now.
19:05 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 21:37 shinohai: <<< Is my Romanian really that terrible, or are they calling a meme an "anarchist organization" ?
19:08 asciilifeform << somewhat counter-intuitively, best conditions are the times with ~most~ interference ( i.e. ionosphere propagation most favourable, so you get the rubbish from 10000km away )
19:08 a111 Logged on 2017-11-08 00:01 mircea_popescu: << why not ? cheap solution, passive array, measure em interference.
19:08 mircea_popescu ok, still measurable. have a km of cable coiled in between plastic foils, buried superficially, there's your mega array.
19:08 asciilifeform it is however moar complicated, there are mechanics of day/night ( various layers, which reflect different bands , appear and disappear with the daylight ) and season.
19:08 mircea_popescu basically a sort of DDR stick on the ground.
19:09 asciilifeform buried cable dun receive much.
19:09 asciilifeform ( ground conducts )
19:09 mircea_popescu superficially, an inch or so
19:09 mircea_popescu acts as a cheap filter.
19:09 asciilifeform try it with ordinary shortwave. dun pick up ~0.
19:10 mircea_popescu you're just trying to answer basic q "sunspot y/n mega storm y/n"
19:10 asciilifeform biggest q is 'where is the daylight in the path'
19:10 mircea_popescu will also answer this.
19:11 asciilifeform on top of this station can see whether it gets answered or not.
19:11 mircea_popescu nah.
19:11 asciilifeform ( supposing 2way item )
19:12 asciilifeform at any rate, i conjecture that if you smear the signal over entire sw band, day/night dun matter so much.
19:12 asciilifeform with sufficient lube^Hy code
19:14 asciilifeform so imho it isn't necessarily the case that your station even has to give a shit re atmosphere.
19:15 asciilifeform ( model it, say, as an ensemble of '9000' stations, where if any half dozen of which successfully read other end, you have a link )
19:15 asciilifeform *reach
19:17 asciilifeform ('ultrawideband' people demoed some quite impressive items, e.g. a 500 picowatt thing that was picked up 200km away, etc )
~ 49 minutes ~
20:06 BingoBoingo In other noise from the orclands, ACLU and Taylor Swift are now fighting over pop music lyrics. In the evaluating who has more lawyer bucks stage atm.
20:16 hanbot mircea_popescu
20:17 hanbot BingoBoingo what lyrics might those be, 'we shall overcum'?
20:18 shinohai lmfao
20:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i realized one potential headache re : normally when your merc is grunting out its 160kw, it is ~in motion~ , and air moves through radiator
20:32 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 23:16 mircea_popescu: and most of the weight of the 30kg generator that needs a fuckming crane to move comfortably is the fucking engine, which guess what, i already have.
20:32 mircea_popescu has fan. also, with the modern items... oil temp sits put at optimal throughout. well overcooled.
20:33 asciilifeform fan is good for parking lot
20:33 asciilifeform on jacks, betcha will boil radiator.
20:33 mircea_popescu coolant is over boiling point as it is. pressurized systems.
20:33 asciilifeform stationary gens have quite large radiator.
20:34 mircea_popescu hm.
20:35 asciilifeform nao otoh you don't necessarily need all 160
20:35 asciilifeform so possibly 'parking lot' would suffice.
20:38 deedbot << Trilema - Cezar Petrescu -- File dintr'un caiet de amintiri : Mateiu I. Caragiale
20:39 asciilifeform oh hey hey hey lbj
20:40 asciilifeform the society of rotakus says ty
20:43 mircea_popescu oh! cool.
20:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re 'fram, ursul polar' -- the ancient ЗИЛ-like fridge in 'museum of communist konsoomer' is a 'fram'
20:43 mircea_popescu aha.
20:43 mircea_popescu same root, nansen ship
20:43 asciilifeform coincidence ?
20:43 asciilifeform aa hm.
20:43 mircea_popescu (nansen was a grandiosely misfortunate norwegian that eminently didn't get to the north pole TWICE, nearly died each time)
20:44 asciilifeform i thought it sounded familiar , aha
20:44 mircea_popescu actually managed the 2nd, iirc.
20:45 mircea_popescu (entirely possible the ro commies read the book and never heard of nansen, but anyway)
20:45 * asciilifeform not eaten said b00k yet
~ 19 minutes ~
21:05 asciilifeform in related lulz, << same fram ! i had no idea that it was an adiabatic cycle thing
21:05 asciilifeform ( compressorless )
21:10 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> charge tesla by running mercedes so the hipsters can hipster << lol
~ 35 minutes ~
21:46 asciilifeform re radio thread, ancient l0gz gold ,
21:46 a111 Logged on 2016-08-18 13:39 asciilifeform: 'As physicists, radioastronomers, and electronics engineers, we were all struck by the possibility of doing independent broadcasts, if nothing else because that was our profession. My colleagues took part in broadcasts in Warsaw and other cities. Rooftop transmitters had low range. And they were easy for the security services to locate. We had to think of something else. Our colleague Andrzej Jeśmanowicz, son of the noted Toruń mat
21:50 asciilifeform ( orig item )
~ 35 minutes ~
22:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it was yea
22:36 mod6 oh hey
22:37 mod6 Mr. Popescu, Lords, and General Assembly: Today, I'd like to take a moment to observe and congratulate The Most Serene Republic on it's Third Independence Day!
22:38 BingoBoingo <hanbot> BingoBoingo what lyrics might those be, 'we shall overcum'? << Nah shit like "Look what you made me do" and the word "Rise", which apparently blond white folks aren't allowed to use
22:45 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> stationary gens have quite large radiator. << That internal resistance is a bitch
~ 19 minutes ~
23:04 BingoBoingo
23:05 BingoBoingo "Taylor's lyrics in "Look What You Made Me Do" seem to play to the same subtle, quiet white support of a racial hierarchy. Many on the alt-right see the song as part of a "re-awakening," in line with Trump's rise. At one point in the accompanying music video, Taylor lords over an army of models from a podium, akin to what Hitler had in Nazi Germany. The similarities are uncanny and unsettling."
23:07 BingoBoingo And the motivation: ""Taylor's political silence appeared to be a rejection of her peers' support of the inclusive Democrat platform," Herning wrote. "Taylor's silence is not innocent, it is calculated. And if that is not true, she needs to state her beliefs out loud for the world... in America 2017, silence in the face of injustice means support for the oppressor.""
23:09 BingoBoingo With the Harveywood scandal, pantsuit can't afford to not have all the entertainers in line.
23:13 ben_vulpes mod6: huzzah!
23:24 mod6 Indeed, Sir. :]
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