Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-11-13 | 2017-11-15 → ↓
00:01 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped
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00:02 BingoBoingo AMT bad or...?
00:03 asciilifeform a la microshit.
00:11 BingoBoingo The Ubiquiti or the Biostar
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
01:14 BingoBoingo !!up hubud
01:14 deedbot hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
01:14 BingoBoingo Hello hubud
01:14 hubud Hi
01:15 BingoBoingo Who is your daddy and what does he do?
01:15 hubud stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since..
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01:15 hubud He's a goat farmer
01:15 BingoBoingo Does he love it?
01:15 hubud More or less
01:16 BingoBoingo Poor goats
01:16 hubud He treats them well
01:17 BingoBoingo Ah, love the goats, but indifference to the work of goats
01:18 BingoBoingo So, what's your favorite trilema piece so far?
01:21 hubud Problems of today
01:21 hubud or fabulous hash function
01:21 hubud still groking
01:26 BingoBoingo Just wait till you get to the classics
01:28 hubud Oh yeah, there are some juicy juicy ones
01:29 hubud Hard to find a sane btc community these days
01:31 BingoBoingo One you probably need to read sooner is http://trilema.com/anonimity-or-the-urban-versus-rural-dispute
01:31 BingoBoingo Critical for understanding WOT'tronics
~ 20 minutes ~
01:52 BingoBoingo !!Up hubud
01:52 deedbot hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
01:52 BingoBoingo Perhaps register a key while you are here? You never know when you will need it.
01:52 BingoBoingo !!help
01:52 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
01:53 hubud Thanks @BoingoBoingo
02:00 BingoBoingo De nada
~ 15 minutes ~
02:15 hubud !!register pubkey-url http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/kawMG/?raw=true
02:15 deedbot Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
02:16 hubud !!register pubkey-url http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/leKLW/?raw=true
02:16 deedbot Provide a paste URL to the ascii-armored GPG public key or the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
02:17 hubud doesn't like my key
02:18 hubud !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/kawMG/?raw=true
02:18 deedbot 2663CCEE8A986D69753970E5453FED117075F0A8 registered as hubud.
~ 2 hours 47 minutes ~
05:05 davout in other pedos http://archive.is/sTUZU#selection-7611.2-7611.137
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05:19 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737414 <- confirmed; I do NOT use any nextprime or other "rng"-parts from gpg; current rsatron prototype simply grabs nbits from fg, flips the 2 top bits and 1 bottom bit as per previous discussion and then checks if result is prime; if prime then keep, otherwise discard and try again; no "add 2 until prime" or other such thing
05:19 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 01:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik "nextprime" or anything like it is not used
05:22 diana_coman and by "flips" I mean sets them to 1
~ 39 minutes ~
06:01 apeloyee fwiw I just realized that this ^ leaks a little via the modulus
06:02 apeloyee if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048)
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06:02 apeloyee if "no leaks on principle", this needs to be dealt with
06:04 apeloyee can't see how to plug it completely though
06:05 apeloyee if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known
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06:09 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734517 << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext.
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06:09 a111 Logged on 2017-11-08 22:03 asciilifeform: not knowing the e has exactly same effect as not knowing half of the n.
06:09 apeloyee assuming M is a modulus of a useful RSA key, this will work
06:10 apeloyee (i.e. M is not prime, and not single-digit)
06:18 apeloyee *p and q not signle digit
06:22 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737268 <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array.
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06:22 a111 Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and get rid of the pointers.
06:25 apeloyee grrr. "M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047" << 2^4065, of course
06:25 diana_coman apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size; which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key; obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small
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06:25 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737264 <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb.
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06:25 a111 Logged on 2017-11-13 19:35 asciilifeform: phf: ideally i'd get rid of Ada.Strings , full stop
06:27 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737266 <-- I did not contemplate bytecode representation, but this would indeed make matters simpler (including above problem of dealing with strings).
06:27 a111 Logged on 2017-11-13 19:36 asciilifeform: and rewrite the parser per se in scheme ( have it be present as commented bytecode constant )
06:29 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737294 <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob.
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06:29 a111 Logged on 2017-11-13 19:47 asciilifeform: and not 'as much as you want' but up to B bytes, with B given on commandline and stackframed on warmup.
06:32 spyked current lispm ads: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8ROcg/?raw=true if teh real-life gods decide to leave my ass alone, I might publish the whole thing over the weekend.
06:33 apeloyee diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense.
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06:44 diana_coman apeloyee, my first thought went that way but then on one hand this just makes the interval larger basically and on the other hand I have no idea how to even evaluate the compromise (i.e. how large interval is large enough anyway, leaving aside that the how big is big enough for p and q is not that terribly clear either -at least not to me); in other words I can see it as an improvement but I can't actually evaluate it clearly
06:46 diana_coman that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits
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06:49 apeloyee same here.
~ 1 hours 43 minutes ~
08:33 mircea_popescu !!withdraw 0.207429 165QE3hRB3x5781eQoxFjN1pdZndyzZJmv
08:33 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/leYDe/?raw=true
~ 39 minutes ~
09:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737520 << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ?
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09:12 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:09 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734517 << not quite. for encryption, if I get your modulus, and you actually want to read my messages, I can generate a public exponent between M/2 and (say) 3M/4, and attach it to the message in plaintext.
09:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there is no communication among unknown parties. someone somewhere gives you a key.
09:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha!
09:14 asciilifeform i was answering apeloyee's odd 'but i can give you my pubexp later, over unauthenticated plaintext, anywhere' oddity.
09:15 mircea_popescu a. yeah.
09:16 asciilifeform i.e. until we have one another's mods ~and~ pubexps! we're not really rsaparties. with all that flows from this.
09:17 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737528 <<< >>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387
09:17 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 diana_coman: apeloyee, if I understand that correctly basically the only way to plug that leak would be to give up on diddling p and q, including setting size; which would mean just get random pairs of primes until their product fits the desired number of bits for the key; obv this lands into the trouble of having one of them too small
09:17 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
09:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737465 << i'd expect a few thousand items at 15kb each or so, so maybe 100mb total ?
09:17 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 03:58 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737253 << time will tell. Depends on how much the logs-to-date worth of archives end up being in drive space. Bandwidth also a factor. Many things left to be sussed out.
09:17 asciilifeform imho ^ is The Right Thing, at least for folx who aren't generating keys in a burning hurry
09:17 mircea_popescu kinda curious how this bet works out irl.
09:18 asciilifeform and diana_coman , there is no 'trouble if one is too small', you throw out ~both~ if the test fails
09:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737481 << lol. don't forget to come out for air, trilema is larger than what can be braved in one go. you'll break yourself.
09:18 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 06:15 hubud: stumbled on trilema blog last week, been reading nearly nonstop since..
09:21 diana_coman asciilifeform, I meant in the final pair; i.e. you get p=3 and q=2^4095+1 sort of thing; ofc throw both in a pair if product not right size; but if not enforcing any size condition at all on p and q then you can end up with any small prime too
09:21 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737525 << this is therightthing. but note that not only is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737533 not a problem, but the behaviour is fundamental to ffa. in ada a structure is considered nondynamic if its size doesn't change at run time. not if 'magic number' size, like in overflowlang.
09:21 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:22 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737268 <-- this. ftr, current adalisp prototype (not-yet-published and thus yet-vapourware!) represents "pointers" as indices in a statically-allocated array.
09:21 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:29 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737294 <-- not sure if possible with ffatronic ada subset, though, because of "no dynamic objects" restriction. in my (yet-unpublished) prototype, lisp memory size is a static knob.
09:22 asciilifeform spyked: i use generic, which (quite unlike in cpp) results in a fully static structure that is created at runtime
09:23 asciilifeform diana_coman: calculate the probability of fatally small p or q.
09:23 asciilifeform in an honest rng
09:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737511 << amply discussed here, "pedos the next gay-like oppressed community".
09:24 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 10:05 davout: in other pedos http://archive.is/sTUZU#selection-7611.2-7611.137
09:24 diana_coman asciilifeform, for starters I don't know what is "large enough" aka "not fatally small" p or q
09:24 asciilifeform understand, setting the top bit won't help you, i can just as easily say 'but what if the middle 2000 bits in my prime end up zeros!'
09:24 mircea_popescu fortunately for everyone, the state of the needy is croaking before managing to complete its self-defined mission.
09:25 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737516 << this is no leak ; it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys"
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09:25 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:02 apeloyee: if the modulus is M, then p,q>M/2^2048 (because p,q<2^2048)
09:25 davout mircea_popescu: i remembered mostly the "pedos as afraid of women who'll identify them as beta cux"
09:25 mircea_popescu yes, you can expect that your modulus will lead 10 more often than 11. but this is in the book already.
09:26 mircea_popescu davout ima deal with this prime thing then fish out the convos if you'd like.
09:26 asciilifeform diana_coman: generally speaking, anything one could conceivably walk over, is unsafe - i.e. primes smaller than the number of femtoseconds in a millenium, if i had to give a heuristic
09:26 davout prime things first
09:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737519 << let's keep this binary. are you saying that if the first 2 octets of N are 1 therefore the first 2 octets of BOTH p and q must also be 1 ?
09:28 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:05 apeloyee: if M is say, 1.999999 * 2^2047, then ~20 first bits of p and q are known
09:28 asciilifeform the other thing, diana_coman , is that if enemy knows that you will never use a p or q below limit l -- he can start bruting from l
09:28 asciilifeform so pegging primes min size does 0.
09:29 diana_coman asciilifeform, myeah, hence my "what does it even do for me simply making this interval larger"
09:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: octets??
09:29 mircea_popescu bytes
09:29 mircea_popescu i have a serious issue with bit/byte confusion trying to get myself out of it somehow.
09:29 mircea_popescu ftr, octet is the fucking right word for 8 bits. a byte should be 64 bits these days.
09:29 mircea_popescu literally, what the machine bytes.
09:30 asciilifeform let's settle another matter -- which bit is 'first'
09:30 mircea_popescu left to right. most significant bit first.
09:31 asciilifeform aite
09:31 mircea_popescu mathematical ordering.
09:31 * asciilifeform often says 'eldest' , as in ru
09:31 mircea_popescu works.
09:31 * diana_coman found herself using "octet" in code because of going nuts with bytes/bits otherwise
09:31 mircea_popescu anyway, the same problem exists in the tail : if N is 000000001 at the end, i know BOTH p and q were 11111111 last 8 bit
09:32 mircea_popescu diana_coman ikr!
09:32 asciilifeform problem only properly exists in the tail ('youngest') bit, where carry is 0
09:32 mircea_popescu also exists in head.
09:32 mircea_popescu the only way to have an N = 11111111.... is if both q and p are 1111111......
09:33 asciilifeform observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless)
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09:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nope. carry exists.
09:33 asciilifeform srsly try it
09:33 mircea_popescu 11111111×11111111 = 1111111000000001
09:33 mircea_popescu sometimes i suspect you never do binary calculation at all asciilifeform
09:34 asciilifeform where's the ... in there
09:34 asciilifeform this is sloppy thinking
09:34 mircea_popescu 11111111.....×11111111.... = 1111111.....
09:34 mircea_popescu 1111111100000000×1111111100000000 = 11111110000000010000000000000000 if you much prefer.
09:35 asciilifeform ok i misread a leading ...
09:35 asciilifeform otherwise yes
09:35 mircea_popescu anyway, there's entirely no way out of this. for purely mathematical reasons.
09:36 mircea_popescu however you "cut" the problem out, the surface of the cut becomes the problem
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09:36 mircea_popescu and it will be larger than this surface.
09:37 mircea_popescu of course, the odds of getting a FF FF q and a FF FF p are 1/2^32
09:37 mircea_popescu which is to say, small.
09:37 * asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a pill against this, other than he already obvious engineering margin of using respectable number of bits of entropy for whole thing
09:37 asciilifeform *the already
09:38 mircea_popescu kinda why we have 2045 "even if less would be enough"
09:38 asciilifeform aha.
09:38 mircea_popescu there ~are~ extension attacks, but those typically require more than a dozen bits known.
09:39 mircea_popescu (on proper rng. on bs prng / kochgpg etc, they don't.)
09:39 mircea_popescu kinda why faux rng calibration is done on 1blocks in the first place.
09:40 mircea_popescu "all you need to know is where the signature 1blocks come in the "rng", as they will be preserved by binary mult, can be seen in modulus."
09:40 asciilifeform iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known
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09:41 asciilifeform ( bottom or top consec. bits )
09:41 mircea_popescu afaik "shadow brokers" didn't release this principal rsa exploitation tool of "teh equation group", but : imagine you have a machine a) working on your own special-purpose made prng ; and b) generating rsa keys all the time and on call.
09:42 mircea_popescu you now look for the signature blocks of a in b, and have the whole show.
09:43 asciilifeform generally there are cheaper ways to make use of 'key' to chump rng
09:44 mircea_popescu hey, money is no object empire.
09:44 mircea_popescu moreover, VERY GOOD (for some purposes) prngs are eminently sign-block-ing.
09:44 mircea_popescu nobody cares for as long as they're used for what they're intended to be used, such as reproducible scientific simulation.
09:44 asciilifeform the archetypical example is 'digits of pi'
09:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah, pi is not periodic.
09:45 asciilifeform dun need periodicity for rng diddle, necessarily
09:45 mircea_popescu in the scheme discussed above, periodicity is specifically the point.
09:45 asciilifeform or mircea_popescu was thinking of the particular one illustrated earlier
09:45 asciilifeform aa
09:47 asciilifeform reminds me, not long before the beginning of the time of dulap troubles, and the isp winter, asciilifeform was experimenting with statistical tests of the ~moduli~ a la dieharder
09:48 asciilifeform looking for any kind of outliers by any conceivable measure
09:49 asciilifeform within a given bitness category
09:49 asciilifeform but this is a thread for another time.
09:49 mircea_popescu the problem here is structure, you have to have the "emitter" pretty well identified to make useful pattern measurements.
09:49 mircea_popescu this, amusingly, is an exact rehash of your antenna detection discussion
09:49 mircea_popescu (as it's exactly what it is)
09:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737536 << this was part of the original speccing of "unequal length p, q" etc. that line of thought withered and died, see the whole thing in the log it's worth the read.
09:51 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:33 apeloyee: diana_coman: if keeping the minimum of 2^2047 for primes, you can, for example, generate primes between 2^2047 and 2^2049, and start over if the modulus is unacceptable. not sure what minimum for p and q makes sense.
09:51 mircea_popescu though /me is consoled to see bright minds have the same intuitive inclination.
09:51 asciilifeform i'ma half a mind to build that antenna , btw, and see how long before confiscated
09:51 asciilifeform betcha it could live for years.
09:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737538 << it's worse in that the per-unit-effort benefit it delivers is smaller than the benefit we would accrue by simply keeping the current system and increasing the bitsize.
09:52 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:46 diana_coman: that being said, I can't quite see it being any *worse* than this affair with fixed size AND fixed top bits
09:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform very likely. you're a person of interest, what, who\s gonna confiscate your shit.
09:53 asciilifeform lol
09:53 mircea_popescu the fundamental imperial problem (see eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-04#1732837 ) is that good imperial can never act for fear waiting may pay more.
09:53 a111 Logged on 2017-11-04 14:22 mircea_popescu: consider the following point : the recent las vegas shooter had bought a room ; and had ferried a quarter ton of materiel up there ; and then the concert started, and he sat.
09:54 diana_coman mircea_popescu, there is that
09:55 asciilifeform in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.
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09:55 mircea_popescu this is the problem with "complexify the code machine" tendency. somehow it appears intuitively evident that having a portion of the code INSIDE the machine is "a more complex, therefore a more secure system". it is not. 100% of the key belongs in the key.
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09:56 mircea_popescu this is the fundamental, and perhaps only result to date of cryptology.
09:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform give it a decade.
09:57 mircea_popescu :D!
09:57 mircea_popescu (there's a reason imperials have that problem -- it's called "technological progress".)
09:57 asciilifeform it's mostly manual work, mircea_popescu
09:57 asciilifeform so cost dun move much
09:57 asciilifeform the microscope per se is 1940s tech.
09:57 mircea_popescu oh, you mean like warehouse management ?
09:57 mircea_popescu or like driving ?
09:57 mircea_popescu OR PLAYING GO ?
09:58 asciilifeform no, like appendectomy.
09:58 mircea_popescu dun dun DUN!
09:58 mircea_popescu it will sadden you to find surgery is highly roboticized, in the sense of ~60% of surgeon man-hours put in by 1967 surgeons are now done by machine.
09:58 asciilifeform it's a surgery, d00d strips carefully the layers , takes pics
09:59 asciilifeform aha and the 40 remaining % gets to charge same or moar
09:59 mircea_popescu same or moar in today's dollah.
09:59 asciilifeform because the talent pool aint any bigger
09:59 mircea_popescu which evidently can't buy any flotillas.
09:59 asciilifeform separate item neh
09:59 mircea_popescu (if it could -- usg would have some)
09:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not so separate. wait a decade, bitcoin appreciates.
10:00 asciilifeform i can't picture it appreciating to the point where i can spare 30k worth of it
10:00 mircea_popescu poor people can't picture how richdom goes!
10:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach ; expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys.
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10:01 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
10:06 asciilifeform re 30k, it's moar than enuff for own motherfucking microscope
10:06 asciilifeform supposing i had where to keep one, and weren't gearing up for escape
10:07 asciilifeform ( a preowned SEM is mebbe 10k )
10:08 asciilifeform sorta lulzy to learn that a day of bulldozering costs moar than a used bulldozer.
10:09 mircea_popescu davout re pedo discussion : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677971 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-07#1652534 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-03#1651425 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-21#1616334 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-30#1116819 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1043675 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032677 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032676 ; as well as period lulz such as http://btcbase.org
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10:09 a111 Logged on 2017-06-30 23:00 mircea_popescu: much saner to put all gays in jail because "they offend baby jezuz" than to put all pedos in jail because "they harm little kids"
10:09 a111 Logged on 2017-05-07 05:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i'm preparing popcorn for when they finally unearth the pedophilia issue. so far swimming in the brackish water of imaginary problems that are only problems ot the problemizers.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2017-05-03 19:26 mircea_popescu: Framedragger "have you tried not wanting to fuck guys???" whadda ya know, next they'll "cure" pedos. because they're so totally unlike gays and everything.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2017-02-21 22:18 mircea_popescu: hence all the discussions re "fags got their weddings, pedos are next".
10:09 a111 Logged on 2015-04-30 15:40 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the original (mostly politically driven) explanation for violence against homosexuals - some sort of "homophobia" suffers a lot seeing how ALL SORTS of other sexual behaviours elicit the same violent response. such as transsexualism, or pedophilia.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2015-03-06 01:01 mircea_popescu: the very notion that the us has any sort of purpose, not even conscious or expressible, but any sort whatsoever is ridiculous on its face. it has all the purpose of a shambling headless zombie. which is why they're stuck trying to invent nonsense, "women and gayz! anti pedo!!" etc.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: who cares that pedo today ==== faggot 1965.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2015-02-24 21:00 mircea_popescu: the gays got their way with marriage prior to the freeze, but that's it. pedos aren't getting theirs.
10:09 mircea_popescu /log/2014-05-10#669753
10:09 mircea_popescu there's prolly some stuff on trilema too but too lazy to dig moar. shoulds suffice i guess.
10:09 asciilifeform last link got cut
10:10 mircea_popescu oh i thought that couldn't happen!
10:10 asciilifeform lel
10:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-10#669753
10:10 a111 Logged on 2014-05-10 20:40 mircea_popescu: fluffypony that's right, this is the channel of the minority of people into bitcoin that aren't also pedos.
10:15 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737600 << oh, i see now what you were talking about. right5 you are, yes, i was focused on the edges not the middle.
10:15 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 14:33 asciilifeform: observe, you cannot say anything re p,q from he middle bits of pq (or rsa would be useless)
10:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737624 << afaik, ~continuous~, which is a significantly higher bar
10:16 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 14:40 asciilifeform: iirc most recent black magic gives you polynomialtime breakage if >=.22b of bitness b of p or q bits are known
10:17 mircea_popescu (ordered but not continuous a lesser bar ; known-positions higher but still lesser ; continuous block, unknown position ; etc)
10:17 asciilifeform gotta be continuous, or i could 'mahaha, i know mircea_popescu's q has 1024 ones!'
10:17 mircea_popescu hey.
10:17 mircea_popescu thats a knowledge, "exactly 1024 ones"
10:17 asciilifeform within 1sd or so lel
10:18 mircea_popescu let teh enemy fight with the army it has!
10:18 asciilifeform 1024 is ten bits of info, readily brutable
10:18 asciilifeform so sheer weight of 1s can't be much use
10:18 asciilifeform if rsa is strong
10:18 mircea_popescu how useful something is is of no consequence in the classification of things. it still gets a label.
10:19 asciilifeform anyway original observation was re upper and lower cont. strings
10:19 mircea_popescu also, polynomial time isn't THAT great. depends a little on the polynomial involved :D
10:19 asciilifeform afaik no published work re known middles
10:19 asciilifeform sure.
10:19 asciilifeform ( recall the primalitytest thread )
10:20 mircea_popescu the meet in the middle etc thing i saw was far from instantaneous. maybe better technologies do exist, but anwyay
10:20 mircea_popescu "doable", yes, but nobody's writing a php script of this to put on his site.
10:21 mircea_popescu (then again this dun say much -- phuctor, "undoable" until it was done, according to the idle wankers / "academics" publishing around it pretending to not know where they got their dataz.)
10:21 deedbot mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/hiFyl/?raw=true
10:22 asciilifeform veritable feast for the vultures, it's been lately
10:23 asciilifeform i stopped keeping track in real time.
10:23 asciilifeform czechs, germans, etc boecks.
10:25 asciilifeform depressing reading. 'suddenly dud rsa keys, hip!'
10:29 mircea_popescu whole "civilisation" of folk hoping to pass off some tech with serials shaved off.
10:29 mircea_popescu the necessary corelate of "no kid left behind" and "creativity!!11", after all. where's all the world's mediocrities to come up with shit ?
10:30 asciilifeform there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas
↖
10:30 mircea_popescu copy/paste wikipedia exams are a matter of necessity if you're going to bother all shepherds and whatnot daylabourers to join your "college"
10:30 asciilifeform but there at least they dun pretend to have created the airplane.
10:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's been films of elephant etc same.
10:30 mircea_popescu of course they do! the saving grace is that you don't speak orc, to see the pretense.
10:30 mircea_popescu petrus pretends to have created england ; so do romanians at that
10:31 asciilifeform i thought in ro cosmography england was an uninteresting backwater. or is that only mircea_popescu
10:31 mircea_popescu are you aware there's a substantial ro mystico-scientism putting the etruscans as romanian derivative ? and no, it's not "ceausescu madness", ro sufragette cca 1920, exact equiv of that russian fat old woman.
10:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform 100% mp.
10:31 asciilifeform i'm not esp surprised re etruscans item
10:31 asciilifeform considering the venerable ancient ukrs.
10:33 asciilifeform ( re ro crackpottery, asciilifeform is 2/3 through pacepa's tome , and marvels over the d00d's complete omission of how ~he himself~ came to be loyal servant of 'worst ever cruellest evil emperor' )
10:36 asciilifeform or take the 'it was really the demented witch' narrative. invites the q, why did nobody have for her any poison ? really, none of the flunkies ?
10:45 mircea_popescu imagine, he was a general. before that, colonel. earlier still, major. prior to that, lt.
10:45 mircea_popescu and so on.
10:51 asciilifeform aha, and somehow reader is expected to believe that d00d 'always hated communism' etc
10:51 mircea_popescu motherfucker, the coffee in this country. HOW do they do it.
10:52 asciilifeform ( this is universal crack in 'dissident runaway' autobios )
10:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform amusingly, ion iliescu went through similar period. "dissident" etc. except for the pics where he's playing retarded games with ceausescu & co.
10:52 asciilifeform ah lol the ro eltsin
10:52 mircea_popescu ye
10:54 mircea_popescu and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64.
↖
10:54 mircea_popescu then he got promoted in 66 (ceausescu came to teh secretariatship in 65).
10:55 asciilifeform it wouldn't surprise asciilifeform to learn that d00d lives not far .
10:56 mircea_popescu afaik he does.
10:56 mircea_popescu maryland something.
10:56 asciilifeform i'd expect he dun take the trains tho.
10:56 asciilifeform ( in his place i wouldn't )
10:57 mircea_popescu i dunno... at some point in the 80s the whole eastern front (arafat, gaddafi, ceausescu) had multi-mn bounties on his head. if he survived that...
10:57 mircea_popescu market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway.
↖
10:58 mircea_popescu (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
↖ ↖
11:00 mircea_popescu and in other lulz : usg focused on infiltrating and corrupting ro justice system first ; as a result in 1999 they came up with a "rehabilitation" supreme court decision. ro govt refused to recognize it, which resulted in a lot of usg agitprop material as to how "romania not yet rule of law".
11:00 mircea_popescu kinda the blue state blueprint, in general. first subvert justice system then lie about rule of law then so following.
11:02 mircea_popescu (amusingly, one of the dudes that somehow "failed to identify" pacepa went on to kill a coupla french spies in sudan)
~ 15 minutes ~
11:17 BingoBoingo Question: What is a bank reference letter?
11:17 mircea_popescu (to ruin many "westerners" hopes and delusions of self relevancy : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737754 means that no, paris '68 is NOT necessarily more than the original later copied by obama-socialism under heading of "orange revolutions". "oh, you mean pacepa's paris v2.0 ? I SEE!.")
11:17 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:54 mircea_popescu: and you know, pacepa was no less than ro resident in rfg. he fucking led the east presence there for at least most of 64.
11:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737763 << this is unashamedly printed on the jacket of the present-day edition, even
11:18 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
11:18 asciilifeform ( at least the american one )
11:21 asciilifeform re the shoemaker, asciilifeform still can't fully shake the traditional ru version , where man was plugged for paying off his national debt, rather than 'the beoble Finally Had Enuff!' usgolade nonsense.
11:26 mats https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-14/venezuela-s-bondholder-meeting-is-a-bust-as-s-p-declares-default
~ 19 minutes ~
11:46 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737762 << the nazi-hunters, it would seem , disagreed with this. 100 y.o. d00d could still, hypothetically, know where he buried the gold etc
11:46 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:57 mircea_popescu: market value of 88yo is ~0 anyway.
11:49 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo generally the lowest rank of the letters of credit. the bank makes a non binding judgement as to customer;s ability to meet a specirfied financial obligation.
11:50 mircea_popescu this is spurious in your case, tell them you'll pay cash upfront.
11:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform lol!
11:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the people true and squarely had enough. this is the fundamental problem with being saddled with a people in the first place -- what they want isn't ever what';s needed.
11:51 asciilifeform thebeoble have always 'had enuff'
11:51 asciilifeform but e.g. obummer still alive.
11:51 asciilifeform and gorby.
11:52 mircea_popescu "the people have had enough with not being able to buy consumer goods ; and if they were able to buy consumer goods they'd have wanted to "form oppinions" in the manner of ustards, and in the vein of "school exams too hard ; work too long hours ; idealised self not actualised by regime ; let other people take our industry, we'll do service "industry" ; want to live today on money we might make tomorrow IF and only if we don't
11:52 mircea_popescu get it today"
11:52 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty, I'll tell this lawyer being auditioned. I'll also ask him if he can do BROU instead of fucking Santander.
11:52 mircea_popescu and in that vein, once one starts one doesn't end until california reconstructed.
11:53 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo lmao wtf is a lawyer herping about such nonsense.
11:54 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account.
↖
11:55 * mircea_popescu shrugs.
11:55 * BingoBoingo continues asking
11:57 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: re: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737472 which of the three items were you discussing when you mentioned "boobytrapped", any suggested remedies or alternatives?
11:57 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 05:01 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: default firmware is known-boobytrapped
11:57 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i dun have anything against the 'octeon' per se ironwise. just be sure to build own os for it.
11:58 asciilifeform ( it's a straightforward bsd target, for instance )
11:58 asciilifeform for only slightly higher cost you get those amd g-series boxen ( e.g. 'pcengines' )
11:58 asciilifeform approx same physical dimensions
11:59 BingoBoingo Ah
11:59 asciilifeform what are you making, BingoBoingo , the exit router ?
11:59 BingoBoingo Well, this router is the beefier Octeon box.
11:59 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Thing to manage routes
11:59 asciilifeform there's no particular reason to insist that the ~router~ have >2 jacks
12:00 asciilifeform multiplying jacks is what the switch is for
12:00 BingoBoingo Room to grow by trunking lines
12:00 BingoBoingo Also room to cross connect in the future.
12:01 asciilifeform if you have 2, each can be turned into as many as you want, with ordinary iron switches.
12:01 asciilifeform sorta why ethernet is a net, not a point-to-point port
12:01 asciilifeform ( really a bus )
12:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, it's not simply " paying off his national debt". it's like this : dood went deeply into debt post nixon visit, on the strength of us jewish promises (ie, tech transfer) and to the degree of their own established "deep enough to have no way out". they obviously did not deliver, but then he DID dig himself out, paid whole debt in little over decade. ie, not only that he paid it, but that he paid it "imposs
12:02 mircea_popescu ibly" ie "does not understand how jew-worldview works!"
12:02 asciilifeform aha!
12:02 asciilifeform so 'had problems'. with the murder weapon being 'uprising'
12:02 mircea_popescu and then in SPITE of "tech control", romania was building its own computers. not good, no. yet. but it's own machine gun factory WAS better than us anything, after a 20-30 years of "not good, no".
12:03 asciilifeform even pacepa's b00k describes a ~working~ pilfered vlsi lab
12:03 mircea_popescu and then in spite of "political control" ie "containment policy" romania operated it's OWN gulf concessions with its own machinery and shipped the oil on its own boats made in its own factories.
↖
12:03 mircea_popescu fuck you empire of a complete size.
12:03 asciilifeform i.e. for all i know shoemaker & co were about to start making ivories
12:04 mircea_popescu but, no, ceausescu didn't get overthrown because "the people". who the fuck seriously thinks "the people" even matter, jesus.
12:04 mircea_popescu the problem is he had no successor.
12:04 asciilifeform same problem as stalin
12:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform possibly by 1995 yes.
12:04 mircea_popescu re ivories.
12:04 asciilifeform complete with prodigal son etc
12:04 mircea_popescu quite, yes.
12:04 asciilifeform ( nicu is exactly vasiliy )
12:05 mircea_popescu anyway, if he HAD a continuator, like the chinese managed to continue xiaoping, i have little doubt i'd be all for the regime, decked in the usual "youngest general in the signals" regalia and we'd be holding this convo across the berlin wall.
12:05 asciilifeform hey i'm all for the regime right nao!111
12:06 asciilifeform the hat man's, that is
12:06 mircea_popescu meh. it'd have had to be reformed. half of it made no sense.
12:06 * asciilifeform nao even has that selfsame hat. walks in to visit family, they immediately : 'brezhnev!'
12:06 mircea_popescu socialist-nationalism still socialism. make it capitalist nationalism we're in business. specifically - the portuguese business, rape everyone
12:07 asciilifeform good half of just about anything, dug up by archaeologists, similarly makesnosense
12:07 mircea_popescu i was there, dun need archeologists.
12:07 mircea_popescu this is a major diff.
12:08 asciilifeform well similarly asciilifeform was there for gorby
12:08 asciilifeform ( though did not live as long as mircea_popescu )
12:08 mircea_popescu this is not similar, i was there for ceausescu not for iliescu lol
12:09 asciilifeform asciilifeform's elder brother did however witness 'golden age' .
12:09 mircea_popescu so then, elder brother saying "half of it made no sense" very != archeologist saying "i don't understand how half of this shit even worked"
12:09 asciilifeform and never quite stopped rubbing it in . 'hey that loaf of bread you ate in timis ? we had these, and cost 3 kopeiki' etc
12:10 asciilifeform yea
12:10 mircea_popescu i understand how it worked ; it however made no sense. diff point.
12:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform he had a point, at that. 20 to the ruble im sure.
12:10 asciilifeform i regret to report that even after 25yr of usaschwitz it still makesnosense.
12:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in every case he had a point.
12:12 mircea_popescu of particular interest to you might be causescu's self-concept, especially items such as "a critica" (to critique). i dunno how many of his own words you've read, but the man had a very interesting (on the grounds of its incredible low level form that maintained reasonable function) husserl approach to post-hegelian dialectics.
12:13 asciilifeform got reading recs for subj ?
12:13 mircea_popescu this, in a fellow entirely unsuspectable of having ever HEARD of husserl, let alone read anything in german, is a feat somewhat comparable to the 256 byte 99% lisp interpreter.
12:13 asciilifeform i'd enjoy eating. once i get past '5th grade' level of rotaku.
12:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform marginally sufficient material (to show it, if not to discover it necessarily) actually on trilema.
12:14 asciilifeform but where
12:14 mircea_popescu nah, his romanian was that of a retard, 5th grade just about. very evidently SIMPLE alphabet.
12:14 mircea_popescu lessee.
12:15 asciilifeform 'я русский бы выучил. только за то,. что им. разговаривал Ленин' (tm)(r)(mayakovsky)
12:15 asciilifeform (src, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/N2TRJ/?raw=true )
12:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: d00d did know ru tho. so could have, in theory, read the german thinkers, neh
12:17 mircea_popescu neh.
12:17 mircea_popescu dood had trouble reading newspaper.
12:18 mircea_popescu entirely oral thinker.
12:19 mircea_popescu dood also had serious emotivity probloems -- extremely shy, etcetera. epicycle is perhaps that encounter with the czechoslovak "labour people" when they ask him a (simple, let's be friends) question (context is that he's the hero, against soviet invasion, etc) and he totally can't answer.
12:19 mircea_popescu you seen that ?
12:20 asciilifeform yea visible from the surviving material readily
12:20 asciilifeform ( or even consider the famous last balcony scene )
12:21 mircea_popescu in THAT context some confusion is expected.
12:21 mircea_popescu but to be unable to say who you're thanking at oscar ceremony... kinda blonde moment. you KNEW they were gonna ask.
12:22 asciilifeform troo.
12:22 asciilifeform that's a 'did he do his homework' moment.
12:22 mircea_popescu except he didn't comprehend there's a homework to do.
12:22 mircea_popescu and to most mediocre people, gave this impression of utter idiocy, because regularily contradicted their "reasonable expectations". except didn't have the mp refinement of making it painful for them later.
12:23 mircea_popescu so the notion endured, "oh, mp doesn't understand maffs".
12:23 asciilifeform dunno, supposedly he did make it somewhat painful for some of'em later
12:23 mircea_popescu it's true, he doesn't. NEITHER DO YOU. without that latter part...
12:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nope. the problem with the mediocre pretending to "intellectuals" is they've agreed to only hurt physcologically.
12:25 asciilifeform i was thinking of the 'i hereby order mr.pantsuit caught and fed some radium' instances.
12:26 mircea_popescu yes, but those "don't count"
12:26 mircea_popescu it has to be "mrs pantsuit, where's your having won the presidency nao ?" at the lowest.
12:26 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> entirely oral thinker. << Ah, hung out with too many Frenchies did he
12:27 mircea_popescu ideally, it's a "hey, check out how your stupidity #1 contradicts your stupidity #2, what do you have to say for your stupidity that isn't throwing a hissy fit ?"
12:27 asciilifeform mebbe this shows that asciilifeform is same sort of peasant as the shoemaker, but finding it hard to see why not counts. having pantsuit hoisted on a public stake would even moar count imho
12:27 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo hung with ~nobody. didn't even fuck around, married a 25yo whore 9-year whore, stuck to her 50 years.
12:27 asciilifeform why does it have to be a paper humiliation.
12:27 asciilifeform what's wrong with meat humiliation.
12:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform cuz that's what the mediocre intellect has decided upon.
12:28 asciilifeform maybe ants also have complicated requirements for how to humiliate. but ! ddt still worx!
12:28 mircea_popescu not according to the ant.
12:28 mircea_popescu see, this is the problem : selection and education are different.
12:28 mircea_popescu yes i select my whores. but once i selected what may be promises, i humiliate her, i don't fucking kill her.
12:28 mircea_popescu humiliation is definitionally "in the terms of the idiot"
12:29 asciilifeform this makes sense
12:31 mircea_popescu may be promising*
12:35 mircea_popescu dude it's incredible how fucking useless the internet is.
12:35 asciilifeform ikr ?
12:36 asciilifeform i found last yr, somewhat surprisingly, that the works of stalin are not sitting in plain txt anywhere
12:36 mircea_popescu you know ?
12:37 mircea_popescu i read piles of ceausescu transcripts, they're all exactly nowhere. 1968 meeting with the writer's union ? really, NOT EVEN THAT ? 1965 may 19th "who wants a seat in helicopter" one ? nope ?
12:37 mircea_popescu it's like... dude forget it, 0%.
12:38 asciilifeform when asciilifeform wanted to read lysenko in the original , he had to visit the rarest-rarities reading room in american national lib of medicine
↖
12:38 asciilifeform nowhere else, was subj preserved ( outside of possibly similar archive in moscow, possibly )
12:38 mircea_popescu nuts.
12:38 asciilifeform but hey you can download winblowz 10 at 25MB/sec !11111
12:38 asciilifeform and lolcatz
12:43 mircea_popescu im totally finding this, motherfucker, im sure i saved copies on trilema somehwere PRECISELY for this conversation
12:43 BingoBoingo !!Up hubud
12:43 deedbot hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
12:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2013/what-is-art/#comment-96132 << ceausescu on art.
12:45 mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EQGx2/?raw=true << full item
12:45 asciilifeform oh neato
12:46 mircea_popescu after a stenograph of 1971 (aug 4) meeting at Mangalia (Neptun).
12:46 mircea_popescu the 1965 and 1968 items absent, but pars pro toto this shall have to do.
12:47 mircea_popescu dude has the audacity to ask for "a ballet on the topic of having finished the kolohoz-isation". you know ? at least asks the right fucking questions, even if nobody in audience has the mettle to make answer.
12:48 mircea_popescu and he has the numbers : right here, where we happen to be, i ~know the name of the local lord~, and his numbers : 600 to 2209, he says. and what is teh retort ?
12:50 mircea_popescu "oh the numbers are wrong". yeah, im sure they are. and the tractors invented, and the working the fields with oxen and horses and wives pre 1940 calumny, perhaps. hurr.
12:59 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737789 <<< needed the same when opening a bank account in .mu, reference letter didn't need any particular judgement about whether i'd be able to meet a financial committment, but just something along the lines of "had bizns with this gentleman for X years, didn't leave with unpaid debts, isn't a fucking gypsy"
12:59 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 16:54 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I asked him for the "how do we get a corporation fast" answer. His answer is off the shelf. This isn't the first time I've heard "bank reference" being bandied aboutwith respect to opening a corporate account.
13:00 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737688 <<< ty, will read
13:00 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: davout re pedo discussion : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-30#1677971 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-07#1652534 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-03#1651425 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-21#1616334 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-30#1116819 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1043675 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032677 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-24#1032676 ; as well as period lulz such as http://btcbase.org
13:00 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc
↖ ↖
13:00 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:30 asciilifeform: there was a '90s american film where there is a scene, where an airplane lands in africa and in fast motion gets stripped for parts, like elephant carcass by hyenas
~ 22 minutes ~
13:23 BingoBoingo In other news, apparently Tower 4 of the world trade center is not actually inside the world trade center free zone.
13:35 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737917 < o right! not a bad film, at that.
13:35 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc
13:35 mircea_popescu mmm 2005. no, there was some 1970s item
13:50 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737529 << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level)
↖ ↖
13:50 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 11:25 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-13#1737264 <-- strings are (lisp) lists-of-characters. which, as it is, unfortunately makes parsing and evaluating builtin functions (e.g. cons, car, cdr) a pain in the ass. can be structured cleanly though. also, this makes it not a simple matter of find+replace in shithub scheme.adb.
13:51 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/il-merlo-maschio/ << Trilema - Il merlo maschio
13:53 phf for example your Symbol_EqualP should just be a pointer comparison, rather than string comparison. (the whole point of a ~symbol~ over a string is that it's interned, i.e. same sequence of characters always map to the identical Symbol object)
13:54 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737542 << that's just DoS. but, if you have computational capacity, you check the padding. may also require that it's signed with my key, with the pubexp attached if you don't know it. Thus, the modulus is in principle sufficient to _initiate_ the converstaion
13:54 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 14:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737520 << what keeps a million enemies from offering false pubexps in false conversations, preventing us from agreeing on a genuine one ?
13:55 asciilifeform apeloyee: by same argument, '1 bit of the modulus is sufficient to init conversation, after it we'll agree on next bit' etc
13:55 apeloyee I don't see how you can extend to this case
13:55 asciilifeform in either case, in practice enemy can drown you
13:56 apeloyee well, that means the enemy can drown you even if we kave pub.exps, by simply flooding
13:56 apeloyee *have
13:56 apeloyee with random garbage
13:56 asciilifeform not if i have '9000' entry points to my gossip net, each of which rejects malformed rsa packets in O(1) at line speed
13:57 apeloyee u can use these to verify that purported pub-exp is validly signed
13:57 asciilifeform right, but to do it, you first have to receive proposed exp 'on faith' at that endpoint
13:58 asciilifeform the amount of computation that you must do, and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger.
13:58 mircea_popescu apeloyee signature also relies on knowing your exp
13:59 apeloyee can attach your pubexp in plaintext, to the signature
13:59 mircea_popescu but a signature signed by a pubexp i didn't have PRIOR to the receiving of the signature is definitionally worthless.
13:59 mircea_popescu as it communicates nothing above "3+3 = 6"
14:00 apeloyee I thought you said modulus _is_ the identity, and here I presume the modulus is known
14:00 mircea_popescu dang i said pubexp i meant pubkey.
14:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: apeloyee was extending the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-08#1734664 argument, as i understand
14:00 a111 Logged on 2017-11-08 23:10 asciilifeform: returning to the exponent thing, seems that mircea_popescu is right, nothing particularly interesting can be done by distributing a pub with e' . ( other than 'believe me , his e is 3' and then messages ~to that pub~ are breakable if padding is broken. but that' sit . )
14:00 asciilifeform that modulus -- suffices for identity
14:01 mircea_popescu so your model is, i have your pubkey, and encounter an item signed by that N, with a specific e that's included in the signed text ?
14:01 apeloyee yes
14:01 apeloyee of course, must check that e/=1
14:01 mircea_popescu aha. yes, this is exactly what we do not
14:01 mircea_popescu now*
14:01 asciilifeform this in fact worx. but makes for heavy sigs.
14:01 mircea_popescu except we're currently defaulting e's no whatever, 65537
14:01 mircea_popescu for exactly asciilifeform 's reason : shorter this way
14:03 jurov a111: strings are sequences, not lists. cons/car/cdr does not apply, there's different set of functions for these
↖
14:03 asciilifeform the 'everyone has same e' thing was slipped in under clinton , when his nsa invested in 'acre of asics' with e=3|e=65537 presumption baked in
14:03 mircea_popescu in other domestic tranquility news, just finished stuffing a mason jar with baked peppers. they have some FABULOUS kapja peppers here.
14:03 apeloyee the amount of computation that you must do ,<< the same as for any packet: 1 mod-exp and check padding. >> and bits you must buffer, to do friend-or-foe, is considerably larger. << twice as much. might be acceptable, depending on circumstances.
14:04 asciilifeform apeloyee: it makes , e.g., udp (512byte) impossible.
14:04 mircea_popescu and i just appointed a new crown provider of chocolate. you should see this thing, so endearingly evidently hand-made copy of "how a chocolate looks" when hershey makes it...
14:04 asciilifeform the sad thing is that ( at least until we get, e.g., the shortwave net, going ) there are some boxes of fixed size, that in practice gotta be sat down into if at all possible
14:05 mircea_popescu anyway, if anyone wants some chocolate/coffee/whatever mp-approved products shipped lemme know ima send you a batch.
14:05 asciilifeform and one of these is the unfragged ip packet.
14:05 asciilifeform oh neato
14:05 * asciilifeform would rather pick up in person, when he finally gets around to visiting mircea_popesculandia
14:05 mircea_popescu also works.
14:07 asciilifeform apeloyee: sorta why i suggested making pub-exp nextprime(keccak(commentstring)). satisfies the basic req of e being 1) long 2) nonstandardized
14:07 mircea_popescu stop providing support of "utility" for nextprime
14:07 mircea_popescu it is an anti-useful non-feature.
14:07 asciilifeform it dun matter if it leaks, for a public constant neh
14:08 mircea_popescu there are some primitives you don't wanrt to keep around,
14:08 mircea_popescu exactly like rat eggs.
14:08 asciilifeform 'where is next prime' is perfectly legit wrench in any respectable numeric toolbox, wat
14:08 mircea_popescu "but mp, rats don't reproduce by eggs" "And why do you have to thank for that ?"
14:08 asciilifeform lol
14:08 mircea_popescu who*
14:08 asciilifeform reminds asciilifeform of his brother's 'from old flat, you brought mouse spores !!'
14:08 mircea_popescu heh
14:09 mircea_popescu enlighten me, what does this wrench perfectly legitimately ever do ?
14:09 apeloyee (512byte) << already impossible if must be both encrypted and signed
14:09 asciilifeform making nonseekrit primes quickly, say
14:09 apeloyee with rsa
14:09 asciilifeform apeloyee: with 4096b rsa troo
14:10 asciilifeform one or the other, per packet
14:10 mircea_popescu apeloyee there is no such thing in tmsr rsa.
14:10 mircea_popescu EITHER encrypted OR signed.
14:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's much faster ways, such as the 2^x - y method.
14:14 asciilifeform waiwat
14:14 asciilifeform that doesn't auto-map a n-bit integer to an n-bit prime.
14:14 asciilifeform in n-bit ffa arithm.
14:14 mircea_popescu it precisely does.
14:14 asciilifeform let's hear now ?
14:14 mircea_popescu if you want an n bit prime calculate 2^n and substract the correct small integer.
14:14 mircea_popescu 2^300 - 153 eg
14:15 asciilifeform i don't want ~an~ n-bit prime, i want THE n-bit prime corresponding to arbitrary n-bit input I.
14:15 mircea_popescu or w/e, 2^400 - 593
14:15 asciilifeform repeatably.
14:15 mircea_popescu there is no such correspondence. there's more n than log n
14:15 asciilifeform well not 1:1
14:15 asciilifeform naturally
14:15 asciilifeform but 'same input, same output'
14:15 mircea_popescu well then stfu and read alf's haranguing re hashes.
14:15 asciilifeform call it hash, yes, that outputs a prime.
14:16 asciilifeform ( nothing to stop you from imposing other types of hash in between, incidentally . as i did in the pubexp example )
14:16 asciilifeform it suffers from all of the limitations of other hashes.
14:16 mircea_popescu nevertheless, the correct solution to this "quickly, prime this many bits long" is a n, k tuple which contains n as the bitsize and k as the "oddness". if you want the n - 396 k = 5 prime you get 2^396- 1229
14:16 mircea_popescu ie, the 5th prime down.
14:17 asciilifeform you get a handful of primes this way, before the arithmetic becomes unwieldy
14:17 asciilifeform ( and definitely not ffatronic )
14:18 mircea_popescu we're still not clear on "The needs this wrench helps". so far very much blender-toilet. "maybe someone somewhere needs to make turd batidos"
14:18 asciilifeform at any rate, prime-constructor ( see apeloyee's thread re subj ) is entirely separate problem from 'prime hash'
14:18 asciilifeform blender-toilets are standard in some locales, in fact
14:18 asciilifeform where narrow pipes
14:18 mircea_popescu your "prime hash" is not equiprobable, worst fucking hash ever.
14:18 mircea_popescu "add the digits" is a better hash.
14:19 asciilifeform what means 'not equiprobable'
14:19 mircea_popescu that you'll get some values more likely than others.
14:19 apeloyee I didn't claim prime constructer, just an improved method to generate candidates for miller-rabin
14:19 asciilifeform and how the hell does it compare to 'add the digits' -- there you get $base possible outputs
14:19 mircea_popescu but much more balancedly so.
14:19 asciilifeform nextprime gives countprimes(n) possible outputs.
14:19 asciilifeform and is as balanced as your rng is honest
14:19 mircea_popescu a hash where output x is y times more likely than output z is not a hash. it's a fash.
14:19 asciilifeform its only flaw is that it leaks via time
14:20 apeloyee some primes have many composites before them and thus are more likely
14:20 mircea_popescu ^
14:20 asciilifeform this is troo hm
14:20 mircea_popescu in fact imo the "prime hash" is a textbook example of "worst hash ever".
14:20 mircea_popescu i can'\t come up with a worse one on the spot.
14:21 apeloyee return 4;//guaranteed to be random
14:21 asciilifeform well if done with nextprime() then yes worst
14:21 mircea_popescu apeloyee great hash. always yields 4. unbreakable. what's the problem ?
14:21 asciilifeform but it remains open q , whether it can be done correctly (equiprobably)
14:22 asciilifeform (i.e. such that there is ~nothing~ that can be said in advance re what kind of prime will be chosen)
14:22 apeloyee write-only memory (TM)
14:22 mircea_popescu in fact, the return 4; hash is the ~only hash function about which we can say with certainty that no inverse exists.
14:22 asciilifeform lol
14:22 mircea_popescu TRUTH!
14:22 mircea_popescu great fucking hash, sadly not very usable.
14:23 asciilifeform incidentally, if one believes in hashes per se,
14:23 asciilifeform consider function :
14:23 asciilifeform hash-until-isprime
14:24 asciilifeform dun suffer, in principle, from the nextprime()-problem
14:24 asciilifeform ( suffers from the flaw of potentially never terminating tho )
14:24 mircea_popescu might actually be an interesting approach to the whole "hash evaluation" problem.
14:24 asciilifeform hm?
14:24 mircea_popescu see their PRIME densities etc.
14:24 asciilifeform aa
14:25 asciilifeform afaik even the shoddiest 1980s hash algo, produce ~perfect 'white noise'. hence the popularity of faux-rng via hashwhitener etc.
14:25 mircea_popescu "perfect" under what scrutiny ?
14:25 asciilifeform ( see ancient metathread running back to 2013 )
14:25 asciilifeform under every known scrutiny .
14:26 asciilifeform ( aside from knowing the riddle key )
14:26 mircea_popescu even the shoddiest 2011 scammers produce ~perfect "bitcoin business opportunities". hence the popularity of scam-investment.
14:26 mircea_popescu something like that ?
14:26 * mod6 shudders
14:27 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737571 << if k MSBs of N are 1s, then k MSBs of p and q both are 1s, ie it only leaks sometimes. the leak itself is small, but since slightly biased RNG wouldn't be acceptable, then why this is?
14:27 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 14:25 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737516 << this is no leak ; it is a restatement of "first two bits set to 11, so you only use 2045 bit keys"
14:27 asciilifeform nah, in the sense where neither i nor anybody else can distinguish hash(fg output) from hash(we fuck pigs) , without knowing the answer ahead of time
14:27 mircea_popescu apeloyee because this is a mathematical leak, it's not avoidable properly speaking. multiplication is not a neutral op wrt the tails of the multiplicands. but leaks.
14:27 asciilifeform apeloyee: see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 approach
14:27 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 01:09 asciilifeform: the way i'd implement the whole shebang, is simply to reject both primes if the highest bit of pq is not 1 .
14:28 mircea_popescu once you decide rsa is based on mult, you decide to take the mult leak.
14:28 apeloyee what's the range of candidate p's?
14:28 asciilifeform it is possible, this way, to leak 'half a bit' instead of whole.
14:28 asciilifeform apeloyee exactly half of the bitness of modulus.
14:28 mircea_popescu apeloyee from 11(2045 bits unset)1 to 11(2045 bits set)1
14:28 apeloyee then my argument still applies
14:28 mircea_popescu ah you meant in his thing. yes it still applies, he shaves a further half bit is all.
14:29 mircea_popescu at significant cost, twas in the logs.
14:29 asciilifeform i did note this, you don't escape by gluing upper bits to equal 1
14:29 asciilifeform it's the same as doing nothing
14:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sometimes i get this feeling like he's trying to discern if we're idiots.
14:30 asciilifeform hey, d00d pumped his listening-before-talking muscle for so long that it's schwartzneger-sized
14:33 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737923 << i gotta add to this before it runs away : when making ~scriptlang~ ( rather than an actual lispm ) very different set of design tradeoffs might be acceptable, it they reduce complexity and in particular nonlisp LOC
14:33 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 18:50 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737529 << that doesn't sound right, read and eval are distinct phases, by the time you get to eval you shouldn't be operating with strings when but instead with interned symbols (i.e. things that can be eq'd in lisp and pointer equivalent on c machine level)
14:33 asciilifeform i would like to see the minimal practical nonlisp loc, in such an animal
14:34 asciilifeform which could mean, for instance, dispensing with entire concept of interned string
14:35 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737917 << yes that was it! ty davout
14:35 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 18:00 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737733 <<< "lord of war" iirc
14:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform to get back to teh ceausescu lulz : he describes vasile alecsandri (a rich, old boyar who also wrote poems, very much like say pushkin, massive landholder etc. but ceausescu discusses his work in terms of oyu know, "this journalist kid from the 1800s, did his job, wrote for the people".
14:36 mircea_popescu i very much doubt he understood alecsandri as anything else. "a writer", yes, like a sort of newspaper man ++, a young mark twain, maybe talented, his paternal job being to "make available circumstances to development".
14:36 asciilifeform or possibly he wasn't prepared to piss on his pushkin ?
14:36 asciilifeform just as sov folx were not
14:37 mircea_popescu not at all. he had the most cursory familiarity with the man's work, of the exact sort as might have been pounded into a trades apprentice during basic schooling by kingdom efforts.
14:37 mircea_popescu had no idea of eg the man's letters, as they weren't in the 3rd grade manual. or of anything else.
14:38 asciilifeform hey americans to this day have ~0 problem 'respecting', e.g., washington, despite slave fleet ( and on top of it, near-total unletteredness )
14:39 mircea_popescu i do not believe the man had any sort of comprehension of the world outside the sheerest anachronism.
14:39 asciilifeform sorta half of what makes'im interesting imho
14:39 mircea_popescu the ro folklore imagines the emperor's court as a sort of larger peasant house. i have no doubt ceausescu imagined all others as a sort of "people from village i have known"
14:39 mircea_popescu 100% petrus in this sense.
14:39 asciilifeform time machine escapee.
14:40 mircea_popescu in a sense. yes, there's a certain purity in ignorance.
14:40 mircea_popescu (but the above, there is mention made of eg, emperor going out into the pridvor, ie peasant style veranda. cuz he must've had one. and so on. how could a house be without ? esp if rich enough ?)
14:41 asciilifeform waitasec is this false cognate with the ru
14:41 mircea_popescu all ro words are false cognates. that's what ro does.
14:41 asciilifeform ( the noun is lost, but придворный remains 'courtier' )
14:41 mircea_popescu cognate with old slavonic pritvoru
14:42 mircea_popescu ~exonartex
14:43 asciilifeform of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud'
14:43 asciilifeform just like the lowest prole
14:44 mircea_popescu ironically, romania's communist party had made the socialist republic very very far from the "sacred ideals". usg much more worthy of the S than rsr ever manafged to be.
14:44 asciilifeform sorta accounts for my somewhat contrarian reaction to the much-advertised 'golden toilet' aspect of ceaucescu
14:44 mircea_popescu (more fully visible, this evolution, in china. communists, rite ?)
14:44 asciilifeform 'hey cool, he DIDN'T have fridge-of-bud')
14:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's scandalous ahistorism. the man ate ~like a monk.
14:45 mircea_popescu was, amusingly, vegetarian.
14:45 asciilifeform bbbut the museum ! ( they opened a 'ceaucescu's summer palace' thing , with golden errrythings )
14:45 asciilifeform 2015 iirc
14:45 apeloyee ascillifeform: what do you need a scriptlang for if haz a proper lispm? to bootstrap lispm interpreter/compiler?
14:45 mircea_popescu by all accounts he had no sex in the 70s or 80s ; but in any case had not even satisfied that minimum bar of middle class bourgeoisie of a 2nd girl somewhere.
14:46 asciilifeform apeloyee: i ain't got a proper lispm, and neither does anybody else
14:46 asciilifeform but yes, to ditch the pyturds and perlisms
14:46 asciilifeform and the multi-GB liquishit ecosystem they drag along
14:47 asciilifeform i want a functioning scriptron on, e.g., my dos box.
14:47 apeloyee "ecosystem" is optional
14:47 mircea_popescu worst kind of optionality. optional like woman is optional. in practice...
14:47 asciilifeform ^
14:48 apeloyee how to avoid perlization of $newscriptlang then?
14:48 mircea_popescu the memstructs.
14:48 asciilifeform same way we avoid gavinization of trb, for instance.
14:48 mircea_popescu keeping sane memstructs 99% of the job i am pretty well persuaded.
14:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in other lulz :
14:50 mircea_popescu !~google olga kalashnikova
14:50 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Olga Kalashnikova - IMDb: <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm5728027/>; Science - Aerosols And Clouds (329J): People: Olga Kalashnikova: <https://science.jpl.nasa.gov/people/Kalashnikova/>; about - Olga Kalashnikova | Actor, Model, Producer: <https://www.olgakalashnikova.com/about>
14:50 asciilifeform wassat
14:50 mircea_popescu (dudin's alt-explanation of who *** was in to ***)
14:50 mircea_popescu some slavegirl.
14:51 asciilifeform which linked chix is the 1 in question ? the film extra, or the academic
14:51 mircea_popescu neither.
14:51 asciilifeform or some other
14:51 asciilifeform aa
14:51 asciilifeform 'tis a pretty common name actually
14:51 asciilifeform ( originally a kalash is a type of breading )
14:52 asciilifeform so roughly 'baker'
14:52 mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/45CHT/?raw=true item
14:52 asciilifeform aaaa lol
14:53 phf asciilifeform: i understand your point, but i'm not sure that the author in question made a choice by considering viable alternatives, rather than from not knowing
14:53 asciilifeform phf: my understanding is that author was simply doing homework
↖
14:54 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> 100% petrus in this sense. << Petrus Macht Frei!
14:54 asciilifeform btw phf seems like ivory not happenin' any time soon ( see thread http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737657 ) .
14:54 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 14:55 asciilifeform: in sadder noose, cheapest bolix ivory microscopy quote, chinese, that covers all the layers ( metal and passivation ) is ~30,000 usd.
14:55 apeloyee do you like the 'ivory' architecture so much?
14:55 asciilifeform apeloyee: actually i do not particularly like it
14:55 apeloyee then...?
14:56 mircea_popescu not that many examples of not fundamentally braindamaged computing around.
14:56 mircea_popescu he likes the z80 for the same reasons in the same way. and other obsolete matter.
14:56 asciilifeform apeloyee: but on the other hand any attempt to build a sane arch, without fully grasping the bolix stack, from ic to the compiler, is lunacy.
↖
14:57 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> of course reality caught up with poor shoemaker's imagination, and today's 'emperors' indeed have not only front porches but armchair with tv with foxnoose, and refrigerator full of 'bud' << The local noise is dominated by 'bud' sales freefalling. Popular yet unverifiable by me theory is lack of once much marketed 'Born on date' discontinued by the Brazilians is letting retailers and wholesalers keep rancid product on
14:57 BingoBoingo shelf.
14:57 mircea_popescu alternatively, beer is swill to begin with, and esp the alt-flavoured sprite they sell in the us.
14:58 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: if 'coke' dies, 'pepsi' will reign, the basic idea remains
14:58 asciilifeform 'emperor' drinks same flavoured water as the prole, today.
14:59 BingoBoingo The point is once lowered, bar keeps finding ways to fall further
15:00 asciilifeform apeloyee: ever see the infamous kalman reti film ? ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-16#925610 mirror still seems to work )
15:00 a111 Logged on 2014-11-16 19:08 asciilifeform: http://people.csail.mit.edu/reti/SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4v
15:00 asciilifeform i dun normally recommend 'screen films' but there is simply no other way to properly summarize what bolix was.
15:00 asciilifeform it has to be seen.
15:03 phf apeloyee: i have a friend who periodically attempts to write his own programming language, but without reading any documentation. when i ask him, hey, why not read lisp in small pieces or something, he just goes "well, i'm going to learn something just by trying", which i recently realized is straight up american education model. there's nothing that comes out of it though, he just keeps banging his head against solved problems!
15:03 asciilifeform this is the inevitable doom of people who will not read.
15:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-05#1188842 << see also
15:04 a111 Logged on 2015-07-05 23:53 asciilifeform: or that other thread, which i can't seem to find, where we spoke of how 'maths wot is not essential for being published, but for even having publishable ideas instead of burning your life on fibonacci sequences or some other solved/irrelevant dead end'
15:04 mircea_popescu "could you guess from context what the unknown word means ???"
15:04 mircea_popescu the only answer is no.
15:06 asciilifeform ( consider -- if the 'meaning can be had from context', why is the word even there on the page ? )
15:06 mircea_popescu or for that matter, the page.
15:06 asciilifeform aaha
15:07 mircea_popescu it's the fundamental orcism, this. expressed pluriously by the orcs now inhabiting the once-proud colonies. "you couldn't know as you haven't experienced". really, bitch ? what the fuck DO YOU THINK KNOWLEDGE EVEN IS!
15:07 mircea_popescu and so on, a whole host of, centrally, the same thing. a sort of iliterate solipsism.
15:10 asciilifeform apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron.
↖ ↖ ↖
15:10 asciilifeform just as ceaucescu was content to 'steal' vlsi from the decaying west, i am perfectly content to steal the algos from bolix.
15:11 asciilifeform by all indications, they were pretty effective -- but, far more importantly -- extremely compact.
15:11 asciilifeform ( they had to be )
15:12 asciilifeform and with ~zero~ overflowandcrashlang 'legacy' crapolade in the stack.
15:12 asciilifeform unlike every single extant piece of computing artifact .
15:12 asciilifeform the bolix people fit a complete lisp-to-silicon system in less space than taken by original 'wolfenstein' .
15:13 asciilifeform and it ran ok at 8mhz.
15:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know it's traditionally spelled ceausescu. there's no soft c in romanian, esp not next to e.
15:14 asciilifeform i'm missing the proper letter on this particular terminal anyway lol
15:14 mircea_popescu :p
15:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform did anyone transcribe this ?
15:15 asciilifeform which this
15:15 mircea_popescu reti's speech. wtf is with the sound only bs.
15:15 asciilifeform ( note that no one in ru has any doubt how to pronounce d00d's name, because чаушеску makes perfect sense )
15:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc there was a captioned version on youtube. but seems to have evaporated.
15:17 mircea_popescu !G speech-to-text http://people.csail.mit.edu/reti/SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4
15:17 mircea_popescu we need more bots.
15:17 mircea_popescu who wants to bring up a speech to text thing ?
15:17 asciilifeform iirc d00d doesn't exactly speak the king's englisch
15:17 asciilifeform so might not work
15:18 asciilifeform even if it worked
15:18 mircea_popescu gotta start somewhere.
15:18 mircea_popescu why is he so fucking nervous ?
15:19 mircea_popescu what is with all these people!
15:19 asciilifeform maybe he knew that the money were running out, lol
15:19 asciilifeform ( reti is the other half of dks-and-reti skeleton crew )
15:20 asciilifeform iirc he is the orig author of the ersatz ivory emulator
15:20 mircea_popescu i know a bunch of imbeciles who should speak a lot more hesitatingly than this guy. such as for instance ~everyone not-white. somehow, they don't, going all the way to like obama daring to even open his mouth in public.
15:20 mircea_popescu world is fucking backwards.
15:21 ben_vulpes fwiw google makes their robotranscripts available over http
15:21 mircea_popescu i expect, yes.
15:21 asciilifeform 'Kalman Reti worked for Symbolics from 1982 through 1992, mostly on VLSI tools for Ivory but also writing low-level device support (e.g. a LMFS recovery utility, R/W optical drive support, LZW compressor, etc.) The last few years of that were spent doing customer consulting. After being laid off when Symbolics went into chapter 11, Kalman worked for Apple in Cambridge, first on MCL and later, after MCL was sold to Digitool, on Dylan.
15:21 asciilifeform Kalman was hired after that by Symbolics Technology, Inc., who had acquired the assets of Symbolics from the bankruptcy court, to work on further productizing the emulator for the Alpha. This was used by John Mallery at MIT to run his document distribution system for the White House during the Clinton presidency. When the owners of that venture decided that a financial company had no business owning a computer company, a private ind
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15:21 asciilifeform ividual bought the assets and Kalman spent 4 years as a "captive consultant" for him. Since 2002, when he ran out of money, I've worked for Ab Initio (doing nothing with lisp except emacs hacks).'
15:21 asciilifeform ( src, another d00d who was there, infamous crackpot http://fare.livejournal.com/168016.html )
15:23 phf (crackpot in question is also in all your lisps, fucking with your asdfs)
15:23 asciilifeform aha
15:23 mircea_popescu iirc phf dun like fare so much.
15:23 asciilifeform i dun either
15:24 mircea_popescu since we're doing this, here's a fundamental point i don't understand.
15:24 mircea_popescu why, again, is there a relation between cpu register bit width and memory-allocation-unit bit width ?
15:24 mircea_popescu for one thing, historical concept of pages seems to suggest that the relationship is exactly of the nature of "byte=octet, we're dumb".
15:25 asciilifeform let's suppose the contrary
15:25 mircea_popescu let's.
15:25 asciilifeform how would memory-to-reg and reg-to-memory MOV look on this iron ?
15:25 mircea_popescu how does mult of two regs look ?
15:25 asciilifeform lessay ram is fetchable in 11bit chunks but regs are, say , 17 wide
15:26 asciilifeform mult is necessarily 2b wide ( where b is the reg bitness )
15:26 mircea_popescu let's instead say thatr we have a modern machine, with 64 bit bytes and 1mb bit pages.
15:26 asciilifeform pages are not a fundamental unit tho
15:26 mircea_popescu in this model they are. memory (ram, disk, whatever -- comes in pages)
15:26 asciilifeform ( they are only reflected in iron at all, on 'optimized for c' abortions where have 'iron pagetable' )
15:27 mircea_popescu so your hdd nodes, for instrance, are... 1mb. and your ddram lines are... 1mb.
15:27 asciilifeform but a page is simply a fixed qty of addressable machinewords
15:27 mircea_popescu yes, but hardware-fixed.
15:27 mircea_popescu one drive sector, one ddr line.
15:27 mircea_popescu and, obviously, 1 video buffer.
15:28 asciilifeform well orig q was 'why is there a relationship' but seems like mircea_popescu is really asking 'why pc regs so tiny'
15:28 mircea_popescu no, i am asking why exactly is one item unrelated to another item married to it.
15:28 asciilifeform there being a relationship at all, comes from the fact that the two types of bucket regularly get emptied into one another
15:28 mircea_popescu it's obvious why cpu regs are "tiny" : so many lines worth putting down in gold.
15:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this seems sufficient cause to you ?
15:29 asciilifeform i have noted in the past that it is possible to have, e.g., wider regs but fewer of'em
15:29 asciilifeform with same transistor cost
15:29 mircea_popescu rather, keep the regs, gimme "page to page hdd to ram and video" ops.
15:29 asciilifeform ( the 1 exception where the cost is nonlinear may be the barrel shifter )
15:30 asciilifeform let's consider how ram is typically sold
15:30 mircea_popescu consider if you wrote/read the disk/net/video 1mb at a time.
15:30 asciilifeform chip is typically 'x * y' where x is input bitness and y -- output
15:30 asciilifeform so you can readily buy, e.g., 16x1 i.e. 65536 bits of ram, addressable 1 bit at a time
15:31 asciilifeform ( e.g. 0000000000000000 input gives you the first of'em )
15:31 mircea_popescu right.
15:31 asciilifeform you can also buy x * 4, x * 8, x * 9, 16, 18 ( most common sizes )
15:32 asciilifeform at one time they were uncommon, and a stick of memory tended to have as many chips as the bus bitness
15:32 asciilifeform ( using x*1 strictly )
15:32 asciilifeform but even with the widest, you will need quite a few to make machine with, e.g., 8192-bit word. ( and your cpu now needs 8192bit regs 0
15:32 asciilifeform )
15:33 mircea_popescu now suppose i want to read some of this memory. what happens is that the controller reads A WHOLE LINE, and then selects from it the bit i wanted and spits it out.
15:33 mircea_popescu but this is spuriosity. let it feed out... the whole line.
15:33 asciilifeform what's the use of simultaneously lighting up a whole line, simply to blow the clock cycle on reading 1 bit ??
15:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how is a 1GB ram chip store the 2^30 bits ?
15:33 asciilifeform matrix
15:34 mircea_popescu and this matrix is about... 1mb wide ?
15:34 asciilifeform it's generally ~square, geometrically
15:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform because you ~never read one bit. that's the issue here, whole fucking hardware is built around nonsense. nobody reads 1 bit ; and for most applications 1 byte (ie, 64 bits!) is actually an underbyte.
15:35 asciilifeform well yes. hence typical pc has 128+b wide drams
15:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform fwis mostly rectangular, but anyway.
15:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform typical pc has the following situation : 64 bit registers, 128 bit memory, 1024 bit disk sectors, 64 mb video buffers, and atop sitting a drunk driver who thinks 8 bits are a byte.
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15:36 mircea_popescu if this makes sense...
15:36 mircea_popescu meanwhile we're introducing 4096 bit keys, and 4096 bit message sizes.
15:36 asciilifeform worse
15:36 asciilifeform recent (~decade) x86 has 128, and even 256b, registers also..
15:37 asciilifeform hybrid of bulldog and rhinoceros on every level
15:38 mircea_popescu whatr the fduck is he even talking about, "tagging every word". fucker, small words hardly worth tagging! make your word 4096 bits, tag THAT.
15:38 asciilifeform there was ONE size of word
15:38 mircea_popescu "oh, couldn't be done on hardware of back then". tell you what, fucking your wife also couldn't be done on your hardware of back when junior high.
15:38 asciilifeform and no such thing as untagged, on whole box. that was the whole strength of the edifice.
15:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes but too small.
15:38 asciilifeform they'd happily have made 512b words, if the iron existed.
15:38 asciilifeform as it is 40b broke the back.
15:38 mircea_popescu i suspect.
15:39 asciilifeform whole thing was a valiant effort to make a thing that was just short of technologically impossible.
15:39 mircea_popescu and that meanwhile became quite technologically comfortable.
15:39 asciilifeform fwiw the 3600 series ( pre-ivory ) were 36b
15:40 asciilifeform item grew as the iron became available ( i do not even say 'affordable' , thing was a 'cost no object' design, like aston-martin )
15:40 mircea_popescu he's now at describing the mindbogglingly ugly hacks of how to get 32 bit fixnums out of 36 bit words with 6 bits of tag and 2 of code and so on, "oh actually the lowe order quarter can be repurposed"
15:40 mircea_popescu holly hell already.
15:40 mircea_popescu be less poor, solve better problems.
15:40 asciilifeform asciilifeform ( and quite a few other folx, i suspect even earlier ) realized in ~2005 that it was eminently practical with modern silicon
15:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what did they use as hardware hash ?
15:41 asciilifeform but modern silicon instead gets 2million transistors for motherfucking tlb cache so that winblowz can page less.
15:41 mircea_popescu (lulz of all time, 3600 came with built-in bitcoin miner)
15:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: wish i knew ! sorta why i wanted the thing microscopied.
15:42 mircea_popescu ikr.
15:42 asciilifeform plenty of unanswered q's re the arch.
15:42 mircea_popescu esp as this apparently was ephemera.
15:42 asciilifeform it was ALL ephemera.
15:42 asciilifeform these folx had no notion of making any of the details public.
15:42 mircea_popescu mit. pshew.
15:42 asciilifeform ( can't even say i have any outrage over this, there was no logical reason to publish )
15:42 asciilifeform mit was not involved other than as patent licensor/troll at that point
15:43 mircea_popescu it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads.
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15:43 mircea_popescu no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera.
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15:43 asciilifeform they were ~same as su academics , in that respect
15:43 phf well, folx in question plundered as much as they could from mit and carefully guarded whatever they themselves produce. i don't know about there not being "logical reason to publish"
15:44 asciilifeform and yes if you publish , patent troll could easily use it against you, so culture of seekrecy
15:44 mircea_popescu "worst thing that can happen to smart people is an easy money source early on"
15:44 asciilifeform 'must hide my theft'
15:44 asciilifeform same reason for ~90% of closedsourcedriverism today, say.
15:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform something deeply wrong with response to mother shrieking about her daugher being fucked diverging from beating mother up / fucking her too. but... we digress.
15:45 phf it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs
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15:45 asciilifeform hey if pyongyang or bucharest were running a lispm project and invited defectors, i suspect folx would've come
15:46 asciilifeform phf: aha, it was why scheme(orig. '79') cpu, evaporated
15:46 mircea_popescu amusingly bucharest had nfi idea at the time it COULKD have done such a thing. literally 0 conception of what any of the items we're discussing here WERE. at all. not even the priors present.
15:46 asciilifeform su had, interestingly, early and stillborn attempt at lispm
15:46 asciilifeform ( really, 'refal'-m )
15:46 mircea_popescu phf i had the idea cadr more of a common ancestor, to smbx too.
15:46 asciilifeform ( died with the sunken atlantis, nothing afaik heard of it since 1990 )
15:49 phf well, rms's nervous break down makes some sense when you actually read the code. there's a very obvious clear "steal everything that's not bolted" going on. cadr's SYSTEM sources were being developed in parallel with symbolics and LMI (to the point that there are conditionals in the cadr's code to compile os both on lmi and genera), with interactions slowly decreasing over time
15:49 mircea_popescu im not even sure what theft means in this context.
15:49 mircea_popescu can you define ?
15:50 asciilifeform iirc rms was most incensed re the luring away of ~people~, rather than lifted code
15:50 mircea_popescu the attempt might well illustrate why i meant above re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738293 (o oops, i stoled myself!)
15:50 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: it was involved as mental poison in these people's heads.
15:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i had the same impression. social not technological issue.
15:51 asciilifeform none of the code in question -- at least in so far as it is accessible to modern archaeologist's eye -- was particularly deep
15:51 asciilifeform ( re rms specifically )
15:51 asciilifeform rms was not ,in so far as i can tell, involved in the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738171 aspects )
15:51 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 20:10 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron.
15:51 mircea_popescu it is particularily difficult to explain what one means by theft of a) ideal objects by b) parties who actually own them intellectually and c) when the objects were produced within their lifetimes.
15:52 asciilifeform greenspun, on other hand -- was
15:52 mircea_popescu (ownership here means what it means sexually -- if she submits she's yours, woman, idea, whatever.)
15:53 mircea_popescu plurious agents can own the same idea in the mannger they can have the same girlfriend. knowing about it not required.
15:53 asciilifeform it was never clear to me from rms's surviving writing what he thought mit ought to have done with the lispm, if not to license to manufacturers
15:53 asciilifeform mit was never in the business of selling comps
15:53 asciilifeform i suspect that he simply did not even think about it.
15:54 mircea_popescu i suspect he was a bureaucrat (intellectually insufficient ; aware of this ; politically ambitious) and he resented the lack of control over smarter people.
15:54 mircea_popescu no more than this.
15:55 mircea_popescu his political activism later on entirely predicable on this.
15:55 asciilifeform d00d was in no sense in control tho
15:55 asciilifeform he wasn't the director of lispm group or anything of the kind
15:55 mircea_popescu control as the psychological construct is complicated.
15:55 phf mircea_popescu: i was taking a poetic liberty there. it's the new appearance of a self serving strategy where there wasn't necessarily one (or the strategy changes drastically). the core of activity shifts elsewhere, but the original points of contact are maintained for the sole purpose of taking any new ideas that might've been introduced.
15:55 mircea_popescu phf in the sense that they were trying to sell the machines, but avoid as much of the dev work as humanly possible ?
15:56 asciilifeform near as i can tell, he was the proverbial nursing home patient described on trilema, who says 'died, whaddayamean, died, where is jane?! we were USED to her' re every colleague who went off to bolix or lmi
15:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform entirely possible.
15:56 mircea_popescu bbs.
15:57 phf mircea_popescu: right
~ 21 minutes ~
16:18 mircea_popescu not altogether clear how self-serving that was.
16:19 mircea_popescu given that a) someone was going to make a billion dollars and b) it'd have been preferable it not be gates & jobs.
16:19 asciilifeform re (b) neither of'em was pictured as in same market at all, any moar than pepsicola
16:20 asciilifeform sorta how northrop does not see itself in competition with cessna
16:20 mircea_popescu i could reinterpret the objection in the terms of "mit ai lab had no common ideology", a copacetic statement of "they failed to republic" which is exactly what i meant by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738294 and so on.
16:20 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 20:43 mircea_popescu: no conception of who the enemy is and why exactly, etcetera.
16:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the matter was fluid in 1980. could have been.
16:21 mircea_popescu nytimes also didn't "picture itself in competition with the weird net kids". and so following, chuck e cheese dude's "ipad restaurant" didn't see itself in competition with phones. "it's a restaurant". no it's not.
16:23 asciilifeform re ai lab -- mircea_popescu how do you picture a buncha taxpayer-funded academics not-'failing-to-republic' , hypothetically ?
16:23 asciilifeform what would this look like
16:23 mircea_popescu same way the same exact item opened cannon fire at the "taxpayers" from atop the walls of oxford.
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16:23 asciilifeform they move to amish countryside and make lispms out of grass ?
16:24 mircea_popescu nope. they drag the local barristas into the campus by the hair to be raped for a weekend at a time.
16:24 asciilifeform oxford was a kind of su, or ro if you like, self-fueling
16:24 mircea_popescu so ? who made it that way, king bohemius the 9th ?
16:24 asciilifeform the fact that it was solar-powered ?
16:24 mircea_popescu change college admission to be more like arrest, for one thing.
16:25 asciilifeform ^ as depicted in stephensen's 'anathem' aha !
16:25 mircea_popescu ("oh, romanian gymnasts!!!" "yeah, right. you are aware none of the girls actually wanted to be there, yes ?")
16:25 asciilifeform ( he worked entire fictional portrait of what imho is proper university... )
16:26 mircea_popescu but leaving these proper statements aside -- never mind the civilisational aspect, limit yourself to culture. they might've bothered to realise the only enemy is the taxpayer, moved to limit his impact on government. exactly as the medieval collegiate disputes flew.
16:27 mircea_popescu there were two groups worth the mention during "golden age" of europe : mechants, and scholars. the prime characteristic of either ? immune to common law process!
16:27 asciilifeform superficially their scheme works to this day -- i.e. 'you can elect anyone you like, but he'll be a harvaprinceyalton graduate, muhahaha'
16:27 mircea_popescu merchants had merchant code, scholars had what meanwhile became an universalised immunity, "first conviction walk"
16:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform except it doesn't do anything. works like a painting works.
16:28 asciilifeform at this point that describes their whole civilizational shebang, the hollow husk
16:28 asciilifeform but originally -- worked. or how do you suppose the 'ivies' got, and stayed, fat.
16:28 mircea_popescu fatness is not a goal of anything but pigs.
16:29 mircea_popescu the important point is to be able to make the world make fucking sense against the constant yelps of the idiots who want the world to be comfortable.
16:29 mircea_popescu and thereby, an ivory on every desk not a fucking windows.
16:29 mircea_popescu and if this takes putting a few million instagramers on stakes, ALL THE BETTER.
16:29 asciilifeform the winblowz item still strikes me as anachronistic, rather like the supposition that men killed tyranosaur.
16:29 asciilifeform the 2 were not contemporaneous.
16:30 mircea_popescu that final "all the better" being the republic part. they failed to construct this system whereby extreme violence applied to everyone else was a net positive, in and of itself, for no other reason.
16:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform 1983 to 1985 is 3600, yes ?
16:30 asciilifeform 1980-86 approx yea
16:30 asciilifeform ( e.g. my 3620 was circa '86 )
16:30 mircea_popescu 1981, gates (and allen) struck ibm deal
16:30 mircea_popescu that made them exist.
16:31 mircea_popescu how not EXACT contemporaries ?
16:31 asciilifeform by that token jobs existed in '77 neh
16:31 mircea_popescu thjat is the ~only token re windows.
16:31 asciilifeform the 'mouse spores' were indeed, yes, present
16:31 asciilifeform hm ok i see it
16:31 mircea_popescu in 1982 microsoft was fully built.
16:31 mircea_popescu it was nothing else hence.
16:32 asciilifeform until mid '90s nobody even in bad dreams considered it a threat to industrial iron tho.
16:32 mircea_popescu SO ?
16:32 mircea_popescu until macrosensible nobody even in bad dreams considers the cancer a threat.
16:32 asciilifeform right.
16:32 mircea_popescu it's there whether considered or disconsidered.
16:35 mircea_popescu the over-reaching all-important point is that had the dudes of 1985 produced an ideologically-closed system, by 1995 there'd have been a WHERE for people to go, other than windows.
16:36 asciilifeform aha
16:36 asciilifeform ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-07#1733724 observation )
16:36 a111 Logged on 2017-11-07 22:59 asciilifeform: this is the fate of all 'we don't have an ideology' derps
16:36 mircea_popescu (closed here means "without externalities" rather than anything else)
16:36 asciilifeform ideology is the only working pill against 'market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent'
16:37 mircea_popescu possibly there be others.
16:37 asciilifeform possibly, but not discovered yet.
16:37 mircea_popescu moreover -- doubtful pill. didn't help soviets ; didn't help romanians.
16:37 mircea_popescu the latter needed moar size ; the former a better ideology. evidently worked for eg china, so there is some tolerance.
16:38 asciilifeform it isn't an invincibility pill
16:39 asciilifeform but the moar i dig into ro , the more astonishing the level of fight it was able to put up
16:39 asciilifeform against the mcbeast.
16:39 asciilifeform and for how long.
16:39 mircea_popescu in this light quite remarkable, yes.
16:40 mircea_popescu you recall that (uncharacteristically well written) orlov article re "power of nyet" ?
16:40 asciilifeform aha !
16:40 mircea_popescu very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative.
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16:40 asciilifeform ( tho i liked the other one -- http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-28#774690 -- moar )
16:40 a111 Logged on 2014-07-28 19:19 asciilifeform: 'Learn not to participate - to the point of utter impossibility of meeting the enemy 'half-way' - and you will see that inside there lay a very useful mindfuck: in learning to 'nonparticipate,' in fact you drew out your *will* from its scabbard - to which it seemed so securely riveted by your upbringing. The appearance of *your will* changes everything and forever. With your own will slipped into your boot knife
16:41 mircea_popescu but anyway, in spite of an inability to speak in public, or to make sense, extemporaneously or not, ceausescu was a major player in the status quo of 70s and 80s. that whole "don't mix into the affairs of others", very strong nationalism, managed to paralyze the us-owned and hosted un for two decafdes.
16:42 asciilifeform not much of a talker, but he was quick enuff on his feet ( pointedly unlike the su gerontocrats )
16:43 asciilifeform also he had an actual nation, properly speaking, and made full use of the fact
16:43 mircea_popescu ya prolly better statement.
16:43 asciilifeform ( nationalism dun work in usa because with what; and verboten in su because ottoman-style empire )
16:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in the long run, stalin's internationalism proved the terribly wrong strategy. shoulda went with trotsky.
16:43 mircea_popescu trotsky too idiotic to have stalin killed back when he could.
16:44 asciilifeform by some accounts, d00d JustWanted(tm)
16:46 mircea_popescu kinda why the whole ww2 made him so trotsky-sensitive, too.
16:47 mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUfeuosbeJg << 1968 speech. "invasion a mistake and inconceivable outrage" most of the applause THAT time is genuine. "no justification available and no reasoning may be accepted" and so on.
16:48 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738408 << at the risk of repeating ancient thread, imho if there were a ready alternative ( as in geographic , rather than merely ideological ) to usa, for the remaining ~functional people to defect to -- usa wouldn't last a week
16:48 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 21:40 mircea_popescu: very much it. extremely easy to defeat ustardation : just say no. it helps if you have a fully built system providing an alternative.
16:48 asciilifeform or at the very least would retain the threadbare sanity of usa circa 1980s
16:48 mircea_popescu this is dubious. will last, china likes it.
16:48 asciilifeform china would make penal colony there, or something useful.
16:49 mircea_popescu nah. it's already very much siberia as far as they're concerned.
16:49 mircea_popescu fwis generally send shitty sons.
16:51 asciilifeform afaik feeling is quite mutual : to my knowledge no white man to date defected, properly speaking, to the rice kingdom
16:51 mircea_popescu a, lots.
16:51 asciilifeform anyone i might know of ?
16:53 mircea_popescu not usually advertised, but the expat community large indeed.
16:53 asciilifeform ( plenty of folx from, e.g., ru, living and working in cn. but i am speaking of ~defectors~, as in 'i'd rather have a flat in pekin than continue as lt. colonel at nsa ' )
16:54 asciilifeform a defector as i understand the word, is a honoured guest of the crown
16:54 asciilifeform rather than simply i buy a plane ticket.
16:55 asciilifeform it is when the folx on ~other end~ buy you plane ticket. or for that matter whole plane. and villa. etc
16:55 mircea_popescu the problem with this is that soviet military man valuable ; chinese valuable ; romanian evidently valuable. what value does us tard bring ?
16:55 mircea_popescu it's like asking about "flea defectors". parasytes dun meaningfully defect.
16:55 asciilifeform tard none
16:55 asciilifeform mr. reti -- possibly value
16:56 mircea_popescu not with his current mannerisms.
16:56 asciilifeform hey for all i know pacepa also stuttered
16:57 mircea_popescu you'\re still missing the important point. usg is looking for a brand to show its large citizenry. much like every attempt to hold a tech fconference in argentina degenerates into a bunch of local tards speaking/stepping over each other to blather meaninglessly in the hope of thereby attaining a certificate of humanhood from the foreigners,
16:57 mircea_popescu just so ustards are going to buy pacepa's nonsensical books.
16:58 mircea_popescu the equivalent population does not exist, it's an epiphenomenon of collapsed colonies, like argentina, like america.
16:58 asciilifeform su did hire martin & mitchell
16:58 mircea_popescu it's not common for eg greeks or italians to go crazy over "the beatles", they simply make a local band like that and that's it.
16:58 asciilifeform that they did not enjoy it so much, was their own problem
16:58 mircea_popescu buncha defectors since korean war to china, but ... not nearly the same interest.
16:59 asciilifeform because nobody wants fucking rice, lol
16:59 mircea_popescu i suspect because no one wants americans for any purpose.
17:00 asciilifeform su found a use for martin&mitchell. and buncha other similars. even for oswald, lol
17:00 asciilifeform but naturally 'americans' dun get to defect, you gotta actually be someone
17:01 asciilifeform moar specific than just 'd00d with black passport'
17:01 asciilifeform !!up fromloper
17:01 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
17:01 asciilifeform fromloper: who goes there
17:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can't think of a competent anyone in the whole us army/navy/airforce brass.
17:02 mircea_popescu what exactly could you possibly use one for ? not like they even have the usual value of "stolen documents", i guarantee you if you examed the O-paygrade you'd find not a single soul as well informed as the famous contractor/defector.
17:02 asciilifeform engineers likely to know moar , i suspect, than general. and cost less.
17:02 fromloper Somehow manage to get here by clicking on contact.
17:02 mircea_popescu or i guess you don't count that one ?
17:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: defectors come in 'doing' shape as well as 'knowing'
17:03 asciilifeform e.g. skilled folx
17:04 fromloper This is however more pleasing to my eyes than the other black and green one
17:04 mircea_popescu well in this sense whole dnc long defected to china, moved desperately to prevent ru-us rapproachment back in the early days of 2016 when sitll possible.
17:04 asciilifeform fromloper: wai wat ?
17:04 fromloper http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema
17:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in situ traitors are not properly speaking defectors
17:05 asciilifeform i.e. they dun dream to live out the rest of their days in pekin
17:06 mircea_popescu well how do you know what they dream etc.
17:06 fromloper Any discussion about btc or bch today?
17:06 asciilifeform fromloper: you just linked to a logtron. with search.
17:06 asciilifeform fromloper: could readily answer the question with your own hands. why do you ask people to do the work of machine for you ?
17:07 asciilifeform normally i would assume fromloper does not know about the log ( even though log is linked in subj line of #trilema ...! )
17:07 asciilifeform but in this case even that excuse is not available
17:07 asciilifeform so fromloper what gives ?
17:07 mircea_popescu lol dood clicked a link, landed in pot.
17:08 * asciilifeform must invoke herr babbage, 'i cannot rightfully apprehend the confusion of ideas...'
↖
17:09 fromloper I was in the http://www.loper-os.org and clicked on contact and landed in this nice pot.
17:09 asciilifeform fromloper: relax, enjoy warm water
17:09 asciilifeform generally noobs are advised to read the log for a spell, before considering whether they have something to say
17:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re 'defectors' it is a quite nostalgic subject for asciilifeform , because it is an item from meanwhile wholly vanished, like roman empire, age, where escape from an empire was simply a matter of getting through a wall
17:11 fromloper ascii I have been reading logs when i relevant, also Trilema site.
17:11 asciilifeform ( even despite the 'being someone' point, consider that 1 sailor who jumped from sov ship. usa did not send him back... )
17:11 fromloper What happened to qntra site
17:11 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> d00d was in no sense in control tho << Most bureaucrats aren't
17:11 BingoBoingo Bureacrats read scripts
17:12 mircea_popescu i don't think this subject of your nostalgia ever existed outside the vhs world. it's like muller.
17:12 asciilifeform it was able to exist when the wall was reasonably tight.
17:12 mircea_popescu i dunno
17:12 asciilifeform ( and when the aspiring escapees, i suspect, were the upper cut of the bell curve )
17:13 mircea_popescu consider -- various mexican jumped border, us sent back.
17:13 mircea_popescu but in general -- did not send.
17:13 asciilifeform because they're seeking welfarola.
17:13 mircea_popescu this makes a point of some kind ?
17:13 asciilifeform and wall not so tall to begin with
17:13 mircea_popescu ahahaha wait, and the sailor did not ?
17:13 mircea_popescu !!up abrelosojos
17:13 deedbot abrelosojos voiced for 30 minutes.
17:13 asciilifeform the sailor afaik just wanted out
17:13 mircea_popescu i seem to recall every single wall jumper net drain on puyblic chest for whole life.
17:14 asciilifeform dunno if it makes sense to call, e.g., pacepa, net drain
17:14 asciilifeform he did what whole army could not do
17:14 mircea_popescu rly ? cuz what, he had a martha stewart type show on tv ?
17:14 asciilifeform they sent whole ro kgb residentura in usa packing, neh
17:15 asciilifeform did moar counterintel 'bang for buck' in 5min than whole usg in 50yrs
17:15 mircea_popescu ro didn't really have agents in the us.
17:15 asciilifeform so, what, whole yarn disinfo ?
17:15 mircea_popescu ro did europe, mostly, kgb did us, mostly. they interoped.
17:16 mircea_popescu (kgb also did europe, because paranoid. not very good, but ample resources)
17:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, whbich yarn ?
17:16 asciilifeform e.g. 'horizons'
17:16 asciilifeform he goes on, and on, re residents in usa
17:17 asciilifeform and later was given cia medal ( afaik the only runaway to be awarded )
17:17 mircea_popescu right, and he survived because he scared them off. laissez.
17:18 asciilifeform i've no clue why survived ( and it is by far not the only puzzle re the d00d )
17:18 mircea_popescu this notion that ra-ra-ra usa-america is very much post 2000 nytimes construction. people in the 60s gave almost no shits about the us, unless like the italians they cxould directly leach.
17:18 asciilifeform possibly they kept him in whitehouse basement for 20yrs, whynot.
17:19 asciilifeform pacepa describes the afaik factual reason why his master gave a shit : semiconductor
17:19 asciilifeform it was the first and last thing to properly speaking happen in usa.
17:19 mircea_popescu people wanted to see italian films with antonelli, and french stuff, not hollywood nonsense.
17:19 mircea_popescu romanians got them from the soviets as a general rule.
17:19 mircea_popescu via switzerland or directly.
↖
17:19 asciilifeform not according to pacepa
17:20 mircea_popescu well what can i tell you.
17:20 asciilifeform su had problems lifting equipment wholesale
17:20 mircea_popescu problems, everyone has.
17:21 mircea_popescu but eg, the pdp the romanians cloned was obtaind via soviets. the z80s were all swiss sourced.
17:21 asciilifeform according to pacepa -- su paid hard cash for what ro was able to lift from, e.g., texas instruments, hewlett-packard, the other giants.
17:21 BingoBoingo <fromloper> What happened to qntra site << The isp quite on us. Hopefully Qntra returns ~December 15th.
17:21 asciilifeform z80 was pre-vlsi item. think early '70s.
17:21 mircea_popescu a dubious story altogether.
17:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform early 70s was too late for pacepa lol.
17:22 asciilifeform at any rate i was not sitting with pacepa playing with vlsi, cannot say what part fact, what -- fiction
17:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: defected in '78 neh
17:23 mircea_popescu me either, nor could he have. anyway, to recap -- dood was chief of ro belin residency. once retired (from field work), about simultaneous with ceausescu ascension, was promoted to strategy role in bucharest.
17:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes but by the 70s his active duty time was over.
17:25 fromloper Has anyone here ever discussed solving btc blockchain capacity problem?
17:25 mircea_popescu defected as a 50yo. a 50yo ready to claim oswald worked for kgb.
17:25 mircea_popescu fromloper what problem is that ?
17:25 asciilifeform fromloper: how does one go about solving a wholly fictional problem ?
17:26 fromloper MP The ever increasing amount of data
17:26 asciilifeform fromloper: how would you propose to make a bitcoin without monotonically increasing data set ?
17:26 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2015/lets-address-some-of-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/#selection-113.0-113.81 << revisit 2015.
17:26 mircea_popescu things don't change just because new generation of lambs came out of pregnant ewes this spring like each othe rspring before it.
17:27 fromloper mp read that.
17:27 mircea_popescu the claim would be more presuasive had you referenced it.
17:27 fromloper I have been looking into it and maybe there is a solution. However i am no expert computer programmer
17:28 asciilifeform fromloper: what is the problem to which you wish to see 'a solution' ?
17:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform consider : pacepa defected in bonn. why not in new york ? except if there was 0 reason for the spy chief to ever go to new york. and his period item (letter to dana) is knee deep in eurocentric issues. noel bernard, srsly ? who the fuck cares about noel bernard.
17:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: again not having been there, cannot say. but presumably more watched by politruk, say, in nyc, than in bonn
17:29 fromloper Banks curently keep a records of all txs and each account holder gets a personal statement
17:29 asciilifeform some element of planets-aligned-correctly
17:29 mircea_popescu asciilifeform he was the nominal chief of the whole shebang.
17:29 mircea_popescu and he went to the hot spot of the whole shebang, which was teh germanies.
17:29 mircea_popescu i'm telling you. romania mostly did europe.
17:30 fromloper Blockchain could be redesign to hold the data and each address and balance over 1 sat. each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others.
17:30 mircea_popescu and yes soviets paid occasionally for ro sourced tech. it was without known exception (to me) sourced in eg france.
17:30 asciilifeform he describes the usa trips as specifically for the purpose of building cred, to get access to semiconductor goodies
17:30 mircea_popescu !!down fromloper
17:30 mircea_popescu describes in 1980.
17:31 asciilifeform lol this fromloper was the saddest one to date iirc
17:31 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: they dun make pinoys like they usedta. 'each user would have their own mini blockcahin of txs and not others'
17:32 asciilifeform this has got to be a new record.
17:32 mircea_popescu they're fucked in the head, it's a cultural disease.
17:32 mircea_popescu "everyone will be main player in his own world of warcraft!"
17:32 asciilifeform this is something yet else, gotta be saturnism or the like
17:32 BingoBoingo So do we contact Fort Meade or jolo to get an RMA number for this one
17:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, to put things in readily meaningful perspective : you going "oh shit, we can use this bit i dug up out of bernstein to improve phuctor speed" is 100% what a PRIME example of such "sourced tech" would have been. that the soviets'd have paid for and the whole project involved would be decorated and congratulated after taking however long, 18 months to do it.
17:39 asciilifeform well yes it's what asciilifeform's father did for a living
17:39 asciilifeform and million other people
17:40 mircea_popescu that was the level. the problem with the romanians wasn't that they couldn't steal -- of course they could ; nor that it was in any way immoral or dubious to steal -- holy hell, country-in-development trying to catch up with technology, a good half of the techs involved were sympathetic anyway.
17:40 mircea_popescu it was that a) it didn't know what to steal (as per above re lisp) and b) it couldn't steal fast enough.
17:40 mircea_popescu this b especially.
17:40 asciilifeform well there was also a (c)
17:40 asciilifeform as illustrated by kurt tank in argentina
17:40 mircea_popescu not afaik.
17:40 mircea_popescu hm ?
17:40 asciilifeform i.e. 'where do you plug in the electron microscope in goatfuckistan' problem
17:41 mircea_popescu no such problem.
17:41 asciilifeform it was a problem even for asciilifeform's father, cloning film projectors and discovering that the necessary spring steel could not be had
17:41 mircea_popescu for one thing, 60s and 70s tech was not really advanced enough in this sense ; for the other, ro actually had better experts than the us had. just -- not enough of them.
17:41 asciilifeform better expert does not necessarily make the necessary spring available in qty.
17:41 mircea_popescu think -- the whole romanian section of ms/google etc was... in romania. that previous generation.
17:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform romania was moar industrialized than the soviets, in this sense. had fine alloys. had fine mechanics, everything.
17:42 mircea_popescu like czechs exactly (another major source of soviet such needs)
17:42 asciilifeform or like gdr
17:42 mircea_popescu but the czechs -- even fewer.
17:42 mircea_popescu those -- brand apart.
17:42 mircea_popescu let's say "somewhat like"
17:42 asciilifeform ( by some accounts ru strategic telecom ~to this day~ runs on gdr iron )
17:43 mircea_popescu seems likely.
17:45 asciilifeform before i fughet, here's asciilifeform's microscopy crackpottery of the day : contact print. consider, 370,000 transistors, on item roughly 1cm x 1cm. attach to standard ccd, say the 25 megapixel sort, and image with e.g. soft xray.
17:46 mircea_popescu anyway. between this, "tech spying" and a whole lot of coutnerintel and military wankery, you've 99% of ro activity in the cold war. the former half minor in the early part and growing monotonously to come to overshadow latter part by 70s.
17:47 mircea_popescu the pacepa nutteries with assassinations etc -- footnote, if present. then, as now, ~nobody gave a shit.
17:47 asciilifeform semiconductor -- was the item about which gave a shit.
17:47 mircea_popescu you know ro made its own semiconductors. what exactly ?
17:48 mircea_popescu !~google iprs baneasa
17:48 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , cumpărată la preţ de maşină de ...: <http://www.digi24.ro/special/campanii-digi24/romania-furata/romania-furata-iprs-baneasa-cumparata-la-pret-de-masina-de-lux-si-cu-acte-false-257599>; ROMÂNIA FURATĂ. IPRS Băneasa , o uzină cumpărată cu acte false ...: (1 more message)
17:48 asciilifeform was able to make because good tech intel work, neh.
17:48 asciilifeform rather than burning the 1000 manyears to bake from 1st principles
17:48 mircea_popescu ^ 20 acre compound in bucarest. started production 62.
17:49 asciilifeform what did they make in '62 ?
17:49 asciilifeform afaik in '62 su made strictly diode and transistor
17:49 asciilifeform ( as in , discrete items )
17:49 mircea_popescu well i had the catalogs by year somewhere
17:50 BingoBoingo In other lessons learned today, Montevideo free trade zone offers tax savings... Which at ISP scale would swiftly be consumed by "user fees" to the operator of the zona franca
17:51 mircea_popescu so, in 1962 they had germanium doped transistors. under ~license~ you get this, thomson csf.
17:51 asciilifeform pretty neato tho
17:51 mircea_popescu 1963 first self-produced item, photodiode.
17:52 mircea_popescu and fluorescent lamp starters.
17:52 asciilifeform notbad. in 1953 was what, plows.
17:52 mircea_popescu 1964 export diodes to france, 1966 first ic.
17:52 mircea_popescu then they made automated coil makers, and various production line automatics
17:53 mircea_popescu (this is 99% of what they did, even the z80 clones were intended for production line control, which it was hard to get one at home0
17:53 asciilifeform in su also for production lines. and for artillery.
17:53 mircea_popescu !~google doina didiv
17:53 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Doina Didiv Profiles | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/public/Doina-Didiv>; Doina Didiv | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/doina.didiv>; Petition · Donald Trump: Americans want their Doina ! · Change.org: <https://www.change.org/p/donald-trump-americans-want-their-doina>
17:53 mircea_popescu ^ many years chief-of-C (ic section)
17:54 asciilifeform 'What is Doina, you ask? Is it a candy bar? A protein bar? Does it contain meat, or is it gluten free and vegan? I. Don't. Know.' << lol!!
17:54 asciilifeform ( from last link )
17:54 mircea_popescu meh, nuts.
17:54 mircea_popescu lessee
17:55 mircea_popescu http://www.qsl.ro/yo3ccc/O%20viata%20dedicata%20componentelor%20electronice%20marca%20IPRS-Baneasa%20Doina%20Didiv/index.html << period photo collection
17:55 mircea_popescu woman, 3rd on top line.
17:55 asciilifeform oh hm
17:56 mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Dls7o/?raw=true << interview. possibly dude still answers to callsign
17:57 mircea_popescu http://www.qsl.ro/yo3ccc/Cum%20arata%20drezina%20blindata%20folosita%20de%20Ana%20Pauker/slides/AP01.html#picttop << dood has various interestingobilia, incl ana pauker's traintrack-armoredcar.
17:58 asciilifeform ( in further continuation of the microscopy q : what the everliving fuck happened to the beta ray microscope ? theoretically can do ~same thing as sem, but no need for massive electron gun, million volt power supply, or the vacuum pumps. where is it ?? )
17:58 mircea_popescu heh
17:59 mircea_popescu check her out, exporting 3 inch silicium monocrystals.
17:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that car looks like it were shot ?
17:59 mircea_popescu well yes.
18:00 asciilifeform but pauker died of cancer neh
18:00 mircea_popescu afaik
18:01 asciilifeform and what even was the reason for such an odd vehicle
18:01 mircea_popescu who even knows!
18:01 asciilifeform i've seen draisines on the railroad many times. but repair trucks, not limo.
18:01 mircea_popescu i know, that's why i linked. dood has all sorts of weird.
18:01 asciilifeform verily.
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
19:06 asciilifeform in other lulz, asciilifeform buys a chinesium hf-to-120mhz upconverter thing for rtlsdr , and discovers that he has to take the thing apart and trace pcb traces, and crosscheck with chipset data sheet, to learn which hose is 'in' and which is 'out' ! they did not bother to label ! ( not even in chinese . )
19:13 BingoBoingo lol
19:14 doppler wow, nice going guys
19:18 BingoBoingo doppler: On what?
19:19 doppler on designing that PCB
19:25 BingoBoingo !!up hubud
19:25 deedbot hubud voiced for 30 minutes.
19:25 BingoBoingo From the fake oped mines: "Hey, Tech Companies: Knock It Off With the Apps That Let People Change Their Skin Color"
19:26 doppler asciilifeform: it was an ebay find, right?
19:26 mircea_popescu doppler what are you on about ?
19:26 mircea_popescu be specific.
19:27 doppler what's confusing? ascii is talking about an upconverter he bought.
19:27 mircea_popescu ah.
19:27 doppler I wasn't saying nice going to you guys :)
19:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform is one guy as far as anyone knows.
19:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i have utterly no patience to listen to this kalman thing. i made it 13 minutes, but a) terrible snr and b) his voice is insufferable.
19:31 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: transracialism is a thing!
19:31 BingoBoingo In further developments, little miss trainwreck has just had a tire swapped on her motor carriage for the 7th time in 2 weeks
19:31 mircea_popescu who ?
19:31 ben_vulpes is she buying really really really used tires? spares only?
19:31 mircea_popescu is this code for "bb got laid"
19:31 ben_vulpes bb has a mentee i think?
19:31 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Girl I've been driving around as favor for her sponsor.
19:32 mircea_popescu in other lulz, "sponsor" is how you say "dude paying for the rent" in slang of romanian student/whore (pitipoanca).
19:33 BingoBoingo <ben_vulpes> is she buying really really really used tires? spares only? << Today she figured out rim was cracked and that's why hey were going flat.
19:33 ben_vulpes quit drivin on the sidewalls girl
19:35 BingoBoingo Lol, her sponsor is a a lady who is trying to guide miss trainwreck through 12 steps and figured "Hey, she needs to learn how to make friends. BingoBoingo, here's a chance to practice some patience and let her try to be your friend"
19:36 mircea_popescu from experience women that failed to make friends by the age of about 13 or so will never manage.
19:37 BingoBoingo Well, mentally when you account for the years lost to dopeism
19:37 mircea_popescu i guess there's that.
19:38 * BingoBoingo does not plan to take little miss trainwreck to Montevideo
19:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: at some point i'ma 'fan-sub' the thing (unless somebody else gets to it 1st)
19:40 asciilifeform doppler yes it's an ebayism howdja guess
19:40 asciilifeform cheap, angry
19:40 doppler always fun
19:46 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> is this code for "bb got laid" << Nah, she's a white girl. Practically has a Cherenkov glow of warning signs, but is making an effort to stay sober. Is however a source of entertainment watching the petite weapon of mass destruction operate. Much as the BingoBoingo is a valuable customer service lab, driving this kitten around is valuable wmd development lab.
19:47 BingoBoingo And she pays cash for chauffer service
20:01 asciilifeform ftr $item dunwork.
20:01 asciilifeform f--- would not chinesiate again
20:11 BingoBoingo That corresponds to my experience negotiating with the (Cantonese speaking) chinese
20:20 BingoBoingo !~later tell danielpbarron http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/UpHBe/?raw=true
20:20 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
20:20 phf hehe, somehow i read every single thing that BingoBoingo wrote about the girl as some form of double entedre
20:20 phf the explanations only make it worse
20:20 BingoBoingo Triple even
20:21 BingoBoingo I am learning so much from her talking about her shopping process for next motor carriage
20:23 BingoBoingo brb, sobertime
20:25 phf it might be a sign of old age, that you attract those tiny kittens, and while they talk you're like "jesus fucking christ you're so dumb", but then you tell them to do a little trick and they do it almost correctly, and you're like "oh hey you're educable, neat, what else can you do"
20:29 asciilifeform oh did i mention, the balun crumbled in my hands ?
20:29 mod6 phf: hehe
20:29 asciilifeform oh and did i mention, it was a ~security camera~ balun ?!
20:31 mircea_popescu the double entendre is now a triple entente.
20:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform perhaps you don't know your own strengths.
20:32 asciilifeform and it isn't as if there is nonchinese equipment for sale somewhere. unless you count the for-usg 'weight in gold' nonsense
20:32 asciilifeform lel
20:33 asciilifeform ( how many burn with desire to pay 5k usd for receiver )
20:33 davout in other lulz goldmines https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7cvzu6/now_that_the_debate_is_over_lets_finally_make/
20:35 asciilifeform davout: it is not clear from link, are they begging for donation in proper btc, or shitcoinz
20:35 davout latter
20:36 davout but i'm sure they'd accept the former, to "raise awareness"
20:38 davout the thing that amuses me, is that they seem to be rehashing exactly the same nonsense as proper bitcoin reddit was doing 3 or 4 years ago
20:39 asciilifeform ymean prb reddit ?
20:39 davout exact same nonsense, "raise funds for marketing campaigns", "ask merchants to accept it", "tipping bots", literally the exact same things
20:39 davout asciilifeform: yes
20:39 asciilifeform lol tipping
20:40 mircea_popescu idiots making progress forward can only be possibly used for oven stoking.
20:40 asciilifeform and how come nobody 'ask merchants to accept' gold
20:40 mircea_popescu "years of infighting" ? what, over this week-old fart ?
20:40 mircea_popescu davout they're ~same people.
20:41 mircea_popescu the problem with "tide lifts all boats" is that where boat is comes as function of boat not function of "tides".
20:42 davout "Let's as X to accept buttcash donations"
20:42 mircea_popescu subsistence african farmer is not subsistence african farmer "for lack of opportunities", but for subsistence farmer substance. whether in detroit or durban
20:42 asciilifeform african farmer is three steps ahead of redditus
20:42 mircea_popescu depends from where you count.
20:42 asciilifeform farmer at least has a notion of causality, say
20:43 asciilifeform and of finite resource
20:43 mircea_popescu absolutely not.
20:43 mircea_popescu they both have the ~exact same notion. "follow group and moo."
20:43 asciilifeform redditus neither sows nor reaps
20:43 mircea_popescu they both sow and reap in the same way the same things : incomprehensible seeds on uncomprehended space.
20:44 mircea_popescu dja understand, asciilifeform, what my bizarre address MEANS ? to you, it's just a curio. you readily fail to realise that the CAUSE of that is that local simply has no notion of cartesian space.
20:44 mircea_popescu you think, "how could mind exist, that fails to understand every plane has underneath system of coordinates".
20:44 mircea_popescu it can. hence, for instance, no roads here cross. they loop. dja even grok on your own what i fucking mean by this ?
20:45 mircea_popescu cuz it's a stretch of the imagination in a way not commonly required to stretch.
20:45 asciilifeform i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly
20:45 mircea_popescu you may, on a novel road, wonder if it's a dead end. i don't wonder that. i know it's a dead end. because no CONCEPTION of grid, see. it's not that they failed to implement it. it's that they don't realise such exists.
20:46 mircea_popescu nothing is ever signalled ; not even one way streets. because the local never ventures outside of spaces it knows, so doesn't need signals. why not ventures ?
20:46 mircea_popescu and so on following until you fall over.
20:46 asciilifeform grid requires some notion of future, vs extending like tree roots
20:47 mircea_popescu it's what i mean by "uncomprehended space".
20:47 mircea_popescu shall we now do the incomprehensible seed ? all the way to the witch doctors, just as good as medicine ?
20:47 asciilifeform farmer gotta conceptualize at least seasons tho, neh
20:47 mircea_popescu neh.
20:47 mircea_popescu farmer, like the sheep that he IS, merely follows the herd, and dies with it.
20:47 mircea_popescu that's the great "progress" of agriculture : the shepherd's sheep were replaced by bypedal farmers.
20:48 mircea_popescu just as sheep as the sheep.
20:48 mircea_popescu has "a conception" of seasons. a sheep's notion of the world surroundant.
20:48 mircea_popescu wtf does he need the difference between surround-ing and surround-ant ? mordant is not a word, is it ?
20:48 mircea_popescu aaanyway. let's move to a diff topic lest i thoroughly depress myself.
20:49 asciilifeform i now recall some anthropologist who had problems giving fiction, incl simple hypotheticals, to some african sad sacks
20:49 asciilifeform who , yes, had no coprocessor for it...
20:49 asciilifeform depressing.
20:50 asciilifeform oh did i mention that the antenna per se, turned out to be... old lamp cord
20:51 asciilifeform the only further insult i can think of, is if it somehow were to set the rubbish bin where i threw it, on fire
20:51 mircea_popescu should have prolly dissected it on blog.
20:52 asciilifeform ars longa...
20:56 asciilifeform gotta wonder, how many other 'hey it's soo cheap and available!' technomarvels, on examination would turn up to be exactly same as this
20:57 mircea_popescu aren't we like 100% to date ?
20:57 mircea_popescu what technomarvel worked once sat upon ?
20:58 asciilifeform sorta like asciilifeform's discovery few yrs ago, where turned out that e.g. lathe was considerably easier to get in '50s than today, but 'hey , hurr , 3d printers!!' etc
20:59 asciilifeform lolyea nearly 100
21:00 asciilifeform 'here have iron that dun heat' 'have a radio that picks up only own tuner oscillator' bbut at leadt Cheap!!
21:00 asciilifeform *least
21:02 asciilifeform iirc mircea_popescu had article where 'they're ceremonial objects, actual functionality in'em is like legs on snake' or similar
21:02 mircea_popescu i'm sure.
~ 24 minutes ~
21:27 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/items/ << Trilema - Items
21:35 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> quit drivin on the sidewalls girl << lel
21:40 mod6 ooh laboratorio & hacker-space
21:47 mircea_popescu realidad virtual!
21:52 mod6 my first time in .mx many many years ago, i was like "Bimbo Bread? wtf, don't they know..."
22:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737763 fascinating read btw.
22:02 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 15:58 mircea_popescu: (amusingly, the unsupportable and otherwise batshit insane ugc in http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/ is ~100% unsourced copy/pastes from the dude's "red horizons" booklet)
22:06 wer hello
22:10 phf !#seenbefore wer
22:10 phf heh
~ 15 minutes ~
22:25 wer how do i view my id on wot
22:33 mod6 hi, are you looking @ wot.deedbot.org ?
22:36 wer i'm not sure
22:36 wer how do i identify myself?
22:39 mod6 http://www.deedbot.org/help.html
22:40 mod6 it seems like you already did an "!!up" to deedbot.
22:41 wer yes i did
22:41 wer there's this message "This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>."
22:43 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> the double entendre is now a triple entente. << You probably wouldn't be interested in Miss trainwreck because height is in the range that is short for you and ergonomic for me
22:44 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> i've not worked as a caretaker of the profoundly retarded, neh, so can't say i experienced directly << Do you want to come visit before we depart for our seperate ventures? I can make introductions. Maybe even get you some shifts at the BingoBoingo store.
22:45 mod6 wer: did you register your nick with nickserv?
22:46 wer i'm not entirely sure
22:46 wer i logged on here 2 or 3 days ago
22:47 mod6 Registered : Dec 31 06:23:43 2009 (7y 45w 5d ago)
22:47 mod6 not too much younger than mine even
22:47 mod6 so when you connect to irc do you do the typical 'identify' command with nickserv ?
22:48 wer i don't
22:48 wer perhaps another user from before used the same nickname too
22:48 mod6 yeeep
22:49 mod6 and if that person grabs it back with 'ghost' or whatever, then you're sol.
22:50 wer damn
22:50 mod6 are you sure it wasn't you that set it up so long ago?
22:51 wer very
22:52 mod6 ah, ok. well... im not sure what the protocol is then for changing your nick in deedbot, but I'm sure trinque needs to assist you with that/
22:52 mod6 s/\///
22:54 wer ah thanks anyway
23:00 trinque isn't any method for changing a nick.
23:00 trinque you can just register a new key, though
23:00 mod6 ah, ok. thx trinque
~ 35 minutes ~
23:36 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
23:36 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 6800.0, vol: 13477.06062120 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 6776.8, vol: 55613.40039211 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 6860.9, vol: 4520.58920367 | Volume-weighted last average: 6786.21230096
~ 16 minutes ~
23:52 mats http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-29#1255753 << any suggestions for (preferably en-translated) reading material on this subj?
23:52 a111 Logged on 2015-08-29 19:03 asciilifeform: trinque: btw it was not clear to the folks who ran the camps, that this naturally-occurring system of hierarchy was a net plus re: net tonnage from the mines. hence the 'vory/suka wars' mircea_popescu referenced, a famous case where su authorities tried to monkey with the 'org chart'
23:59 trinque if tits register a new key, are they thereby new tits?
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