Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-04-09 | 2017-04-11 → ↓
01:25 ben_vulpes christ what even is the point of a unary predicate in a language without closures
01:25 ben_vulpes oh i know, just establish some more global state
01:26 ben_vulpes you know, before calling the unary predicate
01:26 ben_vulpes EACH TIME
01:27 ben_vulpes wait hang on i have a different critique
01:27 ben_vulpes what even is the point of programming languages that don't in2 closures
01:34 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1380019 << what entails "corrupted gcc"?
↖
01:34 a111 Logged on 2016-01-21 18:33 asciilifeform: that is, using corrupted versions of gcc
01:43 ben_vulpes whatever, does not matter in the slightest.
01:44 mircea_popescu real men just goto where the closure is!
01:48 ben_vulpes oh is that how the world works
01:51 mircea_popescu gotta object orients to orient objects yo!
01:52 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu is in high spirits, must be nuts deep in something other than cpp
01:52 mircea_popescu lol. guess so huh.
~ 6 hours 28 minutes ~
08:21 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641304 << 5+.
08:21 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 05:34 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1380019 << what entails "corrupted gcc"?
08:21 asciilifeform !#s gcc5
08:21 a111 6 results for "gcc5", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gcc5
08:21 asciilifeform ben_vulpes ^ .
08:22 asciilifeform e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-13#1541250
08:22 a111 Logged on 2016-09-13 17:49 asciilifeform: even gcc5 no longer does.
~ 2 hours 20 minutes ~
10:43 shinohai https://twitter.com/theonevortex/status/851439547749548034 "Greatest journalists in crypto"
~ 36 minutes ~
11:19 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: what was the reasoning behind your call that replacing trb's boostisms with c++11isms was an assault on grandfathers pistols? trb mustest compile with old gcc's?
11:22 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: my contention was that it must compile with < 5 .
11:22 asciilifeform whatever 11isms are properly implemented (with 0 special cases) in 4.9 -- fair game
11:24 Framedragger asciilifeform: just fyi i attempted a single wget (single http request) of sadmods, got 500, phuctor main page now 500's :/
11:24 Framedragger prolly needs flask restart.
11:25 asciilifeform lol, thousand 'postgres: phuctor phuctor [local] SELECT' processes zombieing
↖
11:27 Framedragger huh, queries should be cancelled upon a failed http request.. if backend connects to db over tcp socket perhaps check https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/runtime-config-connection.html#GUC-TCP-KEEPALIVES-IDLE
11:27 asciilifeform i'ma ask everybody, nicely, to quit all automated querying of phuctor.
11:28 asciilifeform Framedragger: 'In sessions connected via a Unix-domain socket, this parameter is ignored and always reads as zero.'
11:29 Framedragger that's why i preluded with "if backend connects over tcp"
11:29 Framedragger ok.
11:29 asciilifeform it doesn't.
11:29 asciilifeform also i'm getting 20+ (!) second disk latencies.
11:30 Framedragger have you checked if maybe google army is attacking you now that you've changed the robots policy?..
11:31 asciilifeform nope, it isn't.
11:31 asciilifeform there's a megatonne of zombie postgres liquishit hanging.
11:31 asciilifeform to the point where restarting the thing doesn't even do anything.
11:35 Framedragger (there's a `pg_terminate_backend(process_id)` which can be fed rows from `pg_stat_activity`, just fyi)
11:36 asciilifeform i have 0 idea what this means.
11:40 Framedragger asciilifeform: does the new-factor/key-adder write to db under a different db user than the db reader which reads data for the web backend?
11:40 asciilifeform nope.
11:40 Framedragger ok
11:43 asciilifeform well, phuctor is back up, until somebody else starts auto-massaging it.
11:43 danielpbarron phuctory reset
↖
11:43 trinque haw
11:45 Framedragger the following should output stale queries:
11:45 Framedragger COPY (SELECT pid, client_addr, query_start, query FROM pg_stat_activity WHERE state <> 'active' ORDER BY client_addr ASC, query_start ASC) TO '/tmp/pg-zombies.txt' WITH CSV DELIMITER ' ';
11:46 asciilifeform i know what the stale queries are, already.
11:46 asciilifeform they're normal requests.
11:46 Framedragger oh but like, *active* requests? the use of the word "zombie" implied to me that the web requests themselves may have already died. okok.
11:47 asciilifeform Framedragger: they're zombies in the sense that there were a thousand+ of the liquishit processes whereas there never has any business being > 1 or 2.
11:47 asciilifeform requests with no serious hope of being serviced.
11:47 Framedragger aha ok.
11:52 BingoBoingo Phuctor, in addition to.. you know its stated mission, is possibly the greatest intelligence gathering exercise so far in "single box vs. hordes" problem
11:53 asciilifeform nah that'd be trilema
↖
11:54 phf i take it phuctor is more like btcbase. a couple of thousand requests a day, with an occasional massive bot spike
11:55 asciilifeform loads per se can't hose it, in theory; there is a cache
11:55 asciilifeform submits, however, can.
11:56 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Trilema is "common" application of single box. Many people thusly blog. Phuctor is great because it is a big ball of weird RDBMS-BDSM
11:57 BingoBoingo A micro-lol https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/04/10/lack-irs-data-tool-may-harm-fafsa-application-rates-and-already-hurting-students
11:57 phf they laughed at me when i said btcbase doesn't use a database, who's laughin now
↖
11:59 asciilifeform phf: i've been searching for how to lose the db, for years now.
11:59 asciilifeform as soon as i figure it out -- it's gone.
11:59 trinque are we doing the "I used it wrong; this proves my political views" thread again?
12:02 asciilifeform trinque: 'there is a right-also, and asciilifeform is a moron' is not a political statement ?
12:03 trinque there are many reasons to hate rdbms. "cannot *at all* run something like phuctor" is not one of them
12:03 phf trinque is the resident psql guru, he managed to wire his 50 request lisp process to a postgresql database
↖
12:03 trinque yes phf; this is the only work I've ever done
12:04 trinque live in a garbage can with g_l
12:04 asciilifeform i'm quite certain that it ~could~, trinque . just not at acceptable cost.
12:07 phf tmsr work is primarily defined by its voluntary nature, if i had to do things same way i do it at the office i wouldn't bother. ascii doesn't know intricacies of psql from his day job, and i think it's cruel and inhuman to make him study psql ~as part of tmsr work~. it's not the kind of know how you get to learn by sitting down with a cup of tea and a large printout..
↖
12:09 trinque I think it's dishonorable to prattle on in propaganda mode when there are plenty of statements to be made about why the thing's shit from the position of understanding it.
12:10 trinque nobody's forcing him to use it; now that he has one, I've made a few suggestions to lessen the pain
12:13 asciilifeform all of the constructive suggestions thus far ( from trinque et al ) require full rewrite.
12:15 phf ascii actually can criticize postgresql from the position of understanding. knowing intricacies of psql is not knowledge (rtrees, caching, etc.), it's trivia ("you have to turn lever 3 and depress button Y"). ascii knows what he needs to express, but he can't express it directly, because he's running against architectural constraints of his tool. from that perspective a general "databases are shit" is an entirely valid perspective.
↖
12:16 asciilifeform ^
12:17 trinque this conveniently missing the point is shameful on you both.
12:17 trinque he *has one*
12:17 trinque can either bitch like a woman or fix the pain now and also move off later
↖
12:17 asciilifeform what part of 'the suggested fixed require full rewrite' is hard to understand ?
12:18 asciilifeform and of 'full rewrite, regardless of what else it features, will NOT feature sql'
12:18 asciilifeform *fixes
12:19 trinque so then your site is going to be down in teh meantime because of a combo of prior technical decisions and present political ones
12:19 asciilifeform the site is up trinque
12:19 asciilifeform and if folks insist on trying to bring it down, i will ban as much of ipv4 space as i have to.
↖
12:19 asciilifeform until rewrite.
12:20 trinque I will wager one source of load is my RSS thing, which you bitched wasn't producing results quickly enough
12:20 asciilifeform actually that part creates 0 load, it gets cache ~always
12:20 asciilifeform worx great.
12:22 trinque phf: knowing how to use it is trivia, but tell me, where can I put a dataset now, which I do under no circumstances want to lose, which must be served concurrently to a wide number of clients, which, and so on
12:22 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-take-control-of-your-provider-a-guide-for-whores/ << Trilema - How to take control of your provider, a guide for whores.
12:22 trinque I'm not going to recite how mvcc works to you, nor what atomicity is, you're being dishonest
12:23 trinque none of that is trivial, and I'm aware of one mature such example in common lisp, and you have to pay for it
12:23 trinque which is fine, but I assume you're not over there running btcbase on allegro cache
12:25 trinque for that matter, your common lisp can't even dump a textual representation of its entire state which can be loaded elsewhere disregarding arch
12:25 trinque but we weren't talking about that; we were sidewinding onto whatever
12:25 asciilifeform trinque ^ this is both true and imho a serious problem
↖
12:25 asciilifeform ( afaik -- mccarthy's lisp -- ~could~ )
12:26 trinque no reason it can't; certainly should
12:26 trinque anyone who thinks I'm defending SQL here is deaf
12:26 phf you're just ranting
12:26 asciilifeform re lisp state -- not sure this is doable on unix -- how do you dump and restore textual representation of posix threads ? fd's ?
↖
12:29 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641384 << not to rain on your parade but -- without any currently active crawl process, i've tried to wget /sadmods by hand just now, just to have a single copy to serve on the cached site. so far two 504 in a row
12:29 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:19 asciilifeform: and if folks insist on trying to bring it down, i will ban as much of ipv4 space as i have to.
12:29 Framedragger (so not exactly an 'insist to bring it down')
12:29 trinque phf: you can avoid the point as you choose. "there is a better land and we'll be there someday; don't eat til we get there, best food on earth, they have." has sunk many companies, and many people
12:29 asciilifeform Framedragger: you ~could~ stop hammering it
12:29 Framedragger asciilifeform: i'm not hammering it. check your logs.
12:30 Framedragger i'm trying to request a copy of sadmods.
12:30 asciilifeform didntcha just say 'consecutive 504s'
12:30 asciilifeform what's the 'consecutive' mean if not hammering.
12:30 Framedragger that's wget, it *retries*.
12:30 Framedragger after it gets a 504, it tries again. sequential.
12:30 asciilifeform didn't i ask nicely to quit this ?
12:30 asciilifeform all of it
12:30 asciilifeform anything with auto-retries.
12:31 Framedragger i'm running wget *by hand*. wtf. you expose a href on the site. i try to get it. it fails. ?
12:31 asciilifeform at any rate, thing loaded here.
12:31 Framedragger but that's the last time i brought this up. i wanted to clarify that nobody's hammering it.
12:31 asciilifeform it will start loading again for other people when Framedragger stops autowgetting it.
12:31 trinque lol!
12:31 asciilifeform i have actual work to do, and do not have time to babysit the process all day, every day.
↖
12:31 Framedragger ok this is ridiculous, i'm done
↖
12:32 Framedragger "your http client tries to re-request after request failed. DDoS!!"
12:33 asciilifeform Framedragger: yes, it is weak! but no, i don't have a five-second fix
12:33 phf trinque: my point is ~why do you do what you do~. there's no hard pressing imperative to freak out, which is the bezzle way of things anyway.
12:33 asciilifeform 'this is a small boat, friends, please refrain from going in more than 5 at a time' 'we'll ALL go in! you should have BIGGER boat, you dummy!111'
12:34 trinque phf: I'm speaking from the perspective that this data storage thing eventually gets solved in the republic.
12:35 trinque can't shitbag the entire notion of "db" and expect to do that correctly
12:35 trinque I've said before the thing needs to be split into many specific tools
12:35 trinque still stand there.
12:37 phf well, right, but you're not going to learn how to db by ~running~ databases. the whole "db" thing is an illusion anyway. rtrees, btrees, indexes, locking mechanisms, mvcc are all concrete algorithms, that you can implement in an adhoc manner for your task at hand and actually see how they work and what they do.
↖ ↖
12:39 asciilifeform as it is, sql db is a very effectively opaque black box, full of liquishit, that reliably generates full employment for millions of 'perlists' who memorized the trivia.
12:39 phf allegro cache is actually a lot closer to how btcbase does it, than the postgresql way. internally the two are very different. if you treat both as "a database" you're not going to learn anything
12:39 trinque no disagreement there.
12:43 phf another alternative to doing the sql way is column stores (as an aside allegro cache is really more of a column store), where something like kdb is going to be a reference (the apl approach to databasing in general, of mmaping files with fixed size entries that you can offset into).
12:43 asciilifeform sql is a car with a gas and break pedal for each wheel.
↖
12:43 asciilifeform imho life is too short to use it to study such a thing.
12:43 asciilifeform *brake
12:44 trinque I would like to hear of the large firm that did their accounting on another type of db.
12:44 trinque sincerely.
12:44 asciilifeform trinque: i linked to an auto parts shop that does accounting on commodore64 last year...
12:44 asciilifeform and the year before that -- somebody who used... hypercard
12:44 * trinque sighs
12:45 asciilifeform hey, trinque asked!111
12:45 trinque they don't have a billion of anything
12:45 asciilifeform probably not.
12:45 asciilifeform but sure, sql is 'industry standard'. so is -- winblows.
12:45 asciilifeform it is genuinely the worst possible argument in support of anything.
12:46 trinque no, consider the bundle of questions that enterprise (oil firm, whatever) must ask itself on an ongoing basis
12:46 trinque over *massive* dataset which *is* relational regardless of the db you choose
12:47 trinque that is the standard, not some piece of software
12:47 phf talk about political
12:47 asciilifeform if your operation seriously relies on the db, it implements custom db, from scratch, like the hft trading folks do.
↖
12:47 trinque phf: the data is political??
12:48 trinque asciilifeform: ~whole point~ is what the implemented item would look like
12:48 trinque what problems do you encounter at that scale
12:48 asciilifeform it won't look like sql.
12:48 phf trinque: you've asked a question, that i was about to answer, but it turned out to be a rhetorical question, that you then used as a platform to make a political point, yes
12:48 trinque SQL is a language
12:48 asciilifeform because the flexibility has a price.
12:48 trinque phf: ah, then wasn't my intention
12:48 trinque go ahead, answer
12:50 trinque my point was that the customer for the item has these requirements; what does the item which satisfies them begin to resemble?
12:50 phf and you're wrong as far "everyone uses sql11". merril lynch is famous for storing massive datasets in kdb. deutsche bank uses kdb as well as a handful of other datastores (i have some knowledge here), also two of the banks that i consulted for used object stores. that's just the projects that i consulted
12:50 trinque phf: I didn't claim everybody uses SQL
12:51 trinque I claimed that they will satisfy all the requirements by whichever means they choose
12:51 asciilifeform trinque: this seems tautologically true; it doesn't tell us much
12:51 phf most of them ~also use sql~. but likewise there's no such thing as "the database" there's also no such thing as "the database company uses to store its data". banks typically have 50-100 different large data stores, that serve different purposes
↖
12:52 phf but the reason that they don't all use sql, is because sql is really bad for certain narrow kinds of tasks and suboptimal for a slightly larger set of tasks
12:53 phf anything involving real time data, anything involving time series, anything involving datasets > 100mil
12:53 phf but on the other hand also anything involving objects of non-trivial topology (that's where you want object stores)
12:53 trinque so we agree that this thing called "database" is really distinct tools which some idiot welded together
↖
12:54 trinque say atomic writes on a filesystem, transactional versioning atop that, ...
12:57 trinque or referential integrity, indispensable for bitcoinating
~ 28 minutes ~
13:26 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KAp0s/?raw=true
13:26 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
~ 30 minutes ~
13:56 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641468 << what ends up being the problem in an environment with this many data stores?
13:56 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:51 phf: most of them ~also use sql~. but likewise there's no such thing as "the database" there's also no such thing as "the database company uses to store its data". banks typically have 50-100 different large data stores, that serve different purposes
13:57 trinque I'll tell you; the glue between them by weight comes to dominate
13:58 trinque (he's going to claim I'm arguing for ubiquitous SQL again and miss the point)
14:03 phf what ~is~ the point you're trying to make? you say things, i address them, you immediately move on to some other point
14:04 shinohai The only way to truly settle this matter is with swords.
14:05 trinque phf: I'm having the same experience over here!
14:05 * trinque will re-engage this in a bit
14:05 phf trinque: ~what is the point you're trying to make~
14:13 * asciilifeform also puzzled
14:15 Framedragger very unrelated old story for good humour in the forum: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Special-Delivery
14:15 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641431 << that this is wrong, and letting data access patterns ~between distinct algorithmic components of your system~ be built in ad-hoc manner destroys fits-in-head for the entire system
14:15 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:37 phf: well, right, but you're not going to learn how to db by ~running~ databases. the whole "db" thing is an illusion anyway. rtrees, btrees, indexes, locking mechanisms, mvcc are all concrete algorithms, that you can implement in an adhoc manner for your task at hand and actually see how they work and what they do.
14:16 trinque I can't sit down with something like that and ask it ANYTHING
14:16 trinque because I'll be here for years creating glue
14:16 trinque that is a statement of the ~problem
14:16 trinque and not a statement of any particular solution
14:17 trinque the database as (extremely poorly) implemented by sql rdbms is a generalization of the glue
14:19 lobbes But re: fits in head. Isn't phf's/alfs argument that you cannot really even audit said generalized glue?
14:20 trinque you have to be able to audit *two* things; the code, and the data, and independently
14:20 trinque the guy who loves hard theory is going to claim the latter always derives from the former
14:20 trinque the manager says... sure buddy
14:22 lobbes I do come from the 'let the data speak for itself' school, so that makes sense to my limited understanding
14:24 phf the "glue" point is a strawman, because you don't know how i write my code. as far as problem/solution though
14:24 phf writing out each one of those concerns separately will teach you how to do it (or whether it can even be done, like with "atomic file system")
14:25 phf but i don't think that working with a black box of rdbms will
14:26 phf yes, you can't sit down with a collection of independent algorithms combined in a specific way and use it in a different way without writing extra code, but that's what repl is for
14:29 phf ok, i guess we both know what the problem is. my solution is "study db related algorithms until you know enough to write a db", your solution, unless i misunderstand, seems to be "use an existing database a lot". i don't understand how learning, say, postgresql will get you from not knowing anything about db internal design to writing your own
↖
14:30 trinque I'm sure I've said SQL dbs are terrible a hundred times now.
14:30 trinque and not to use them
14:31 trinque asciilifeform did, so I didn't mind trying to help with that car wreck, having been in plenty of them myself
14:31 trinque I don't criticize that he used it; I do all the time for lack of alternative which has the properties I want
14:32 trinque and I agree with phf that my recourse is to write the thing I want
14:32 trinque neither asciilifeform nor I did in particular cases due to practical tradeoffs of taking that time
14:36 trinque the things pg did exceptionally well never come up in the "omg db sux" thread
14:37 trinque and I'd question the ability of anyone to replace it who didn't bother with that list of things which has fuck all to do with SQL
14:43 asciilifeform the things winblows does exceptionally well also ~never come up in discussions by sane folx.
14:44 trinque yep, I'm out of this thread.
14:44 asciilifeform and my contention is that 'replacing sql' is guaranteed to fail, the problem it solves is intrinsically braindamaged.
14:47 phf in db sucks threads you necessarily talk about pain points. i don't think ~anybody~ here disputes that postgresql is a solid piece of engineering
14:55 phf i'm not sure it's worthwhile to fetishize that quality either. if you attempt to write a db from scratch, postgresql internals is not the first place to look.
14:59 phf but i don't think you're even talking about cracking open the covers? so what does the knowing of these "exceptionally well" things entail?
~ 15 minutes ~
15:15 trinque what'd you expect as a response to that first bit?
15:16 trinque whole point having been that there are useful items in there that all got welded together
↖
15:16 trinque pg's versioned on-disk heap could've held trees as well as rows, eh?
15:17 trinque and in fact does; that's how the versioning works
15:17 trinque later versions pointing upward to previous
15:19 asciilifeform in other lulz : https://archive.is/orEsB : 'Nick Mead, 55, discovered the five gold bars in the Russian T54/69 while restoring it to add to his collection of 150 military vehicles. He and mechanic Todd Chamberlain were filming themselves prising open the diesel tank in case they found munitions and needed to show it to bomb disposal crews. ... Instead, they pulled out the bars, weighing up to 12lb — 5kg — apiece.' and, wtf, '...
15:19 asciilifeform After calling police, two officers took away the bars and gave them a receipt. ... A Northamptonshire Police spokesman said they could not comment “for operational reasons”.'
15:21 asciilifeform meanwhile, elsewhere in the glorious monkey empire, https://archive.is/meEGA : 'A doctor trying to return home to his patients was dragged by his hands from an overbooked United Airlines (UAL.N) flight... Video of the incident posted to Twitter account @Tyler_Bridges shows three security officers huddling over the seated passenger, who appears to be an older Asian man, before dragging him on the floor.'
15:22 trinque pointedly, where's my transactional, versioned, fault tolerant, *persistent* lisp system?
15:23 trinque where disk is not some idiotic file storage but merely an implementation detail of persistence of memory
15:25 phf well, that wasn't a rhetorical question, i was interested. so the second question remains, what does knowing entail in this case
15:27 trinque the re-implementor of modern computing doesn't dispense with these as "you didn't really need that"
15:29 phf that still doesn't answer my question, but the question is at the core of my point. you don't read existing implementations, you don't attempt to write new implementations, you're ~using~ a system that does these things for you. so what is ~knowing~ in this case.
15:30 trinque I've both read postgresql source, several other db turds, written own, extended pg and mucked about heavily in internals
15:31 asciilifeform in other lulz - https://archive.is/us9d8 -- purportedly - 'Decrypted content of eqgrp-auction-file.tar.xz' , 'Passphrase: CrDj"(;Va.*NdlnzB9M?@K2)#>deB7mN'
15:31 phf trinque: well, then why not say it when i asked if you were talking about crackign open the source code? now i actually think that you're lying
15:32 trinque I described how the thing writes rows to disk.
15:34 trinque about done having my character attacked by this guy.
15:34 shinohai https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/04/booby-trapped-word-documents-in-the-wild-exploit-critical-microsoft-0day/
15:35 phf but that's a roundabout way, and you could just read about it in a blog. if the position is that "we should study postgresql source code extensively, as a necessary prerequisite to writing our own database", then i would agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying
↖
15:36 trinque I could quote myself several times in this thread saying exactly that.
15:36 phf please do
15:36 trinque I'm done speaking with you.
15:38 phf if anybody else can find a trinque quote that says an equivalent of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641538 i will apologize, otherwise i guess this stands.
15:38 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 19:35 phf: but that's a roundabout way, and you could just read about it in a blog. if the position is that "we should study postgresql source code extensively, as a necessary prerequisite to writing our own database", then i would agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying
15:45 asciilifeform fwiw i still don't grasp what trinque was disagreeing with phf about.
15:45 trinque you made the assumption that when I was speaking of the things merits, I was speaking of what, the lever you pull and not what it actuates?
15:45 trinque phf: ^
15:45 trinque you did that aiming to pin me on something easily argued
15:46 trinque that running forward with a bare assumption and then spending the whole thread trying to smash opponent into it has been the rule with you
15:48 phf you clearly have some twisted issues related to me. ~that was not my intent~. ~i genuinely think that you were speaking of pulling levers~ ~because there's nowhere in the thread where you attempted to dissuade me of my notion~
↖
15:49 phf that's why i asked you point blank if you're talking about reading code, omg
15:50 phf if that was such an obvious assumption, then why evade addressing it? that would've saved the whole thread! my assumption was ~very obvious~ as you yourself state ~all through the thread~, because ~that's what i assumed~
15:50 trinque I'm not defending every fucking "OP is a redditard" you throw at me
15:51 phf then why speak to me at all? i was arguing in good faith, as an attempt to move on from our previous alteration
15:52 phf apparently that's not how they do things down south. once a grudge always a grudge. fine. we can agree not to talk to each other at all, nor mention each others names. i was sticking to that policy, and it worked fine for me. good day.
15:56 asciilifeform meanwhile, owned boxes list extracted from earlier: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/gO3io/?raw=true
15:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu et al ^
15:57 asciilifeform ( or for anyone else with good logging on his boxes and a strong sense of lol )
15:59 asciilifeform https://archive.is/HDN6Y << seems to be the ~same thing, organized by orifice type
15:59 asciilifeform Run Moar Slowaris
15:59 asciilifeform i386-pc-sco3.2v5.0.5 << apparently someone, somewhere! (in a cave?!)
16:00 trinque phf: one thing they don't do is speak for the other, then proceed from there as if it'd been said
16:00 trinque probably about as southern as it gets, that one
16:00 trinque and I don't see that you get much "culture of honor" without it
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
17:25 lobbes In unrelated lulz, american consumerism moves ever closer to its apex: http://m.imgur.com/Npg7IWR
↖
17:30 CompanionCube lobbes: eh, if people want to buy it
17:31 CompanionCube besides, plush pillows are normally good for cuddling when you want to
~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~
18:42 shinohai https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/851307750495801348 "I'd rather have a consensus failure every year than intense constant bickering."
18:43 asciilifeform wtf is a 'consensus failure' ?
18:45 ben_vulpes "just remember you can't take your words back, these aren't Ethereum transactions"
18:45 mircea_popescu you know, when trump gets elected. when the niggers who figured they were gonna use "consensus" to get the delicious chicken fail to get the delicious chicken.
18:45 mircea_popescu "failed to do what we wanted it to do dammit"
18:47 asciilifeform what's it called when trump hands them the delishious-syrian-chicken after all ?
18:47 mircea_popescu i dunno, remedial of consensus failure ?
18:47 asciilifeform reorg!111
18:48 mircea_popescu algo asi.
18:49 * shinohai imagines Vitalik reading the logs an thing mircea_popescu meant `Asi` is a new groundbreaking algorithm .....
18:49 shinohai s/thing/thinking/
18:51 mircea_popescu lol
18:57 BingoBoingo <lobbes> In unrelated lulz, american consumerism moves ever closer to its apex: http://m.imgur.com/Npg7IWR << I have seen those for sale at my local "Circle K"
18:57 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/04/altcointradingbot-io-is-very-sorry-for-your-loss/ << Qntra - Altcointradingbot.io Is Very Sorry For Your Loss
18:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641325 << this sounds like a horribru locking job.
18:58 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 15:25 asciilifeform: lol, thousand 'postgres: phuctor phuctor [local] SELECT' processes zombieing
18:58 BingoBoingo * shinohai imagines Vitalik reading the logs an thing mircea_popescu meant `Asi` is a new groundbreaking algorithm ..... << Ass Sort Integrals, some very deep "Ito calculus"
18:59 mircea_popescu o brother. you were here for the ito experts huh.
18:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i have it running instrumented presently, soon will see why zombies.
18:59 BingoBoingo lol, poor usagi was a great outcome
19:00 asciilifeform was 'ito calculus' authored by same 'genius' as 'igonvalue' ?
19:00 mircea_popescu incidentally, for all the ulterior leonization, the actual wild west was very much like this : buncha children captive in adult bodies trying to cope.
19:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform https://pastebin.com/mKui8iHr
19:01 mircea_popescu ancient lulz.
19:02 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> o brother. you were here for the ito experts huh. << Nah, came for the drinks, stayed for the revolution.
19:03 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> was 'ito calculus' authored by same 'genius' as 'igonvalue' ? << I see "ito calculus" as catchall for weaponized labels of Usagidiocy type
19:03 asciilifeform oh hah it turns out to actually have existed, somewhere
19:03 asciilifeform attempts to model brownian motion.
19:03 * asciilifeform puts on conveyor
19:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641343 << ahahaha
19:03 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 15:43 danielpbarron: phuctory reset
19:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's a narrow interest item, perfectly respectable in its niche. as bb says, ended up being a sort of shorthand for internet expert in here because randos and history.
19:04 asciilifeform actually pertinent to my current kick, even.
19:04 asciilifeform ( models of bad rngs, such as shitoshi's )
19:04 mircea_popescu fwiw, math finance goes through one of these every 3-4 years (ie, every time a new crop of collegiate tards ends up dominating the hiring pool)
19:05 mircea_popescu was "gauss copula" for a while famously. was a buncha things, i have notes somewhere.
19:05 * asciilifeform is not and has not ever been employed as an astrologer, cannot comment usefully
19:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641354 << this is an iffy discussion. trilema does very little backend but more front end. phuctor the reverse. i think they're very complementary wrt the load type.
19:11 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 15:53 asciilifeform: nah that'd be trilema
19:11 mircea_popescu as asciilifeform correctly points out, there's not THAT much of a deal to insert an article once a day / a comment once an hour and otherwise serve reads.
19:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641360 << they didn't laugh, they were taken aback at the magic.
19:12 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 15:57 phf: they laughed at me when i said btcbase doesn't use a database, who's laughin now
19:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641366 << lmao i take it this supply of zingers will last a while.
19:13 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:03 phf: trinque is the resident psql guru, he managed to wire his 50 request lisp process to a postgresql database
19:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641370 << it all revolves on whether the $item is fundamental or not. if it's fundamental -- not inhuman to make him study, inhuman to allow him to squeak past without studying.
19:14 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:07 phf: tmsr work is primarily defined by its voluntary nature, if i had to do things same way i do it at the office i wouldn't bother. ascii doesn't know intricacies of psql from his day job, and i think it's cruel and inhuman to make him study psql ~as part of tmsr work~. it's not the kind of know how you get to learn by sitting down with a cup of tea and a large printout..
19:14 mircea_popescu but if not fundamental, yes inhuman.
19:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641374 << this is a perfectly reasonable view, and it'd carry were it not be tinged by a history of asciilifeform on occasion producing overgeneral statements not because he ran against design constraints of the space but because he ran against mental constraints of his own.
19:16 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:15 phf: ascii actually can criticize postgresql from the position of understanding. knowing intricacies of psql is not knowledge (rtrees, caching, etc.), it's trivia ("you have to turn lever 3 and depress button Y"). ascii knows what he needs to express, but he can't express it directly, because he's running against architectural constraints of his tool. from that perspective a general "databases are shit" is an entirely valid perspective.
19:17 * asciilifeform did, ftr, end up descending into the darkest depths of his chamber of pain and cracking a b00k, with the aim of determining -- which. this op has not yet returned.
19:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641378 << you now have cold sores. can either bitch about it or... wait for them to pass ?
19:17 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:17 trinque: can either bitch like a woman or fix the pain now and also move off later
19:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i did same, also not yet returned.
19:20 mircea_popescu in unrelated news : me goes into shop where girl has bought nice shot glasses to buy shot glasses. "do you have these in a box ?" "yes" "how many in the box ?" "uhh..." nicaraguan chick is very much willing to be picked up but has nfi how many shot glasses in 3x4 case.
19:21 mircea_popescu "15". "usure ?" "uh..." "it's 12" she counts... 12.
19:21 mircea_popescu then... she doesn't know how much for the dozen. if they're 400 each then 12 is... 3600...
19:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu described argentines as borderline tards but i don't recall hearing a story like this about them...
19:22 mircea_popescu i never saw unmath this bad aside of us college educated girls.
19:22 asciilifeform cr must be near the peak of the equator's stupification field
19:22 mircea_popescu chick was imported though.
19:22 mircea_popescu and nicaragua is... let's say only fit for fauna.
19:22 mircea_popescu 40 degrees with 90% humidity sorta deal.
19:23 * asciilifeform misread '90% humanity'
19:23 mircea_popescu lol
19:23 mircea_popescu the humidity is the killer.
19:23 asciilifeform it's one of the worst things in dc, it is
19:24 mircea_popescu even in buenos aires, of every 10kw the ac ate, 7 to 8 made water.
19:24 asciilifeform asciilifeform once switched planes in panama and ( it had outdoor walk, instead of the customary human pipe ) thought 'just like home'
19:25 mircea_popescu btw -- i have no ac here. the girls are naked indoors. it's fabulous.
19:25 asciilifeform i do know that there are places where the air is hot and ~dry~, and ac has no drain pipe -- but never yet been there.
19:25 ben_vulpes i rather dislike "conditioned" air
19:25 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes aha. me too.
19:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i always wished there were such a thing as an ac with a throttle
19:26 ben_vulpes too dry, doesn't have the nasty taste of reality
19:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that'd be egypt for instance.
19:26 shinohai Now you can just have naked girls fan you mircea_popescu - win-win!
19:26 asciilifeform summer for asciilifeform is an alternating 10min of 'hot' and 'cold'
19:26 mircea_popescu it rained once while i was there. took 5 minutes, most of the water was gone before touching soil.
19:26 mircea_popescu shinohai i'm not even hot, it's pleasant.
19:27 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: why the hysteresis?
19:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you could get your ac connected to the water pipe -- like the fridges with built in ice maker.
19:27 shinohai It's 83 degrees on my patio and sun is going down
19:28 ben_vulpes dang
19:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what would that do ? if you cool the air, and lower the dew point, not even garden hose will make it hold any more water than remained in it after the cooling
19:28 ben_vulpes pac nw is still extricating itself from winter
19:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform save on electricity through spraying it in finely i think ? not sure, never took one apart.
19:28 trinque 77 out; I was promised warming apocalypse
19:28 trinque best april we've had in recent memory
19:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: many folx here have a 'humidifier', separate gadget
19:29 asciilifeform humidifier + ac is disaster though, damp everywhere.
19:29 asciilifeform for the reason described earlier.
19:29 mircea_popescu i was there in winter, so not much call for anything of the sort.
19:29 ben_vulpes schizophrenic weather gods will continue with the increasingly bipolar weather until the humans die off adequately to restore ecological sanity
19:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641396 << well, solved problem in sql since a while back.
19:30 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:25 asciilifeform: trinque ^ this is both true and imho a serious problem
19:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641421 << ahahaha.
19:32 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:31 asciilifeform: i have actual work to do, and do not have time to babysit the process all day, every day.
19:32 mircea_popescu now you know how "www engineer" became a thing.
19:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641422 << take it easy m'lord, jus' needs a little time.
19:33 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:31 Framedragger: ok this is ridiculous, i'm done
19:34 asciilifeform www engineer << at one point there were furnace stokers, also.
19:34 mircea_popescu actually the english word engineer denotes furnace stoker.
19:34 asciilifeform ( on train they were even called, in english-speaking world, engineers!! )
19:34 asciilifeform lol
19:34 mircea_popescu unlike the french word ingenieur, for instance. which comes from genius, or whatever, ingenuity
19:36 ben_vulpes i'll take ingenues over ingenieurs any day
19:37 mircea_popescu i bet.
19:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641431 << there are some advantages to having a standard package of these things everyone uses (this is called maturity) and no serious drawback to calling that package "a database".
19:37 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:37 phf: well, right, but you're not going to learn how to db by ~running~ databases. the whole "db" thing is an illusion anyway. rtrees, btrees, indexes, locking mechanisms, mvcc are all concrete algorithms, that you can implement in an adhoc manner for your task at hand and actually see how they work and what they do.
19:37 asciilifeform https://youtu.be/tnnCHmSJpg4?t=4m9s << see also oblig.
19:38 asciilifeform ( good film btw . )
19:39 ben_vulpes sweet chevy
19:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: problem is, 'database' as commonly seen in sqlworld is not 'collection of btrees, rtrees, etc.' in encyclopaedic algorithmic form, but a misbegotten attempt at ai.
19:40 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641436 << and yet this is exactly how multi-engine airplanes work.
19:40 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:43 asciilifeform: sql is a car with a gas and break pedal for each wheel.
19:40 asciilifeform which purports to choose a one-size-fits-all set of algos for a given data bag.
19:41 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641520
19:41 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 19:16 trinque: whole point having been that there are useful items in there that all got welded together
19:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this, i am aware. but i suspect the "concept of db" trinque defends is "here is the set of definitive -- because mature -- things that handle data ; fucking use it".
19:41 trinque ^ not coming across is why the thread was ridiculous
19:41 mircea_popescu not the nonsensical "oh, paperclip!" microsoft access / lotus 1-2-3 / novell bs approach
19:41 asciilifeform trinque: i entirely agree re above -- there could be such a thing as 'reusable encyclopaedia of data structures'. problem is, it dun exist yet.
19:42 trinque aha.
19:42 asciilifeform it ~will~ exist, as a vtronic item.
19:42 mircea_popescu well, alfie, there could ALSO EXIST SUCH A THING AS A PROGRAMMABLE COMPUTER
19:42 trinque double-aha.
19:42 mircea_popescu now guess what the problem is.
19:42 shinohai lolz
19:42 mircea_popescu heh.
19:42 asciilifeform would be a mighty fine thing, indeed.
19:43 mircea_popescu you're both welcome now shake hands and stop being so pissy all the time. life's too square and my fruit salad too good to waste suchly!
19:43 trinque lol. you got it boss.
19:44 * shinohai still wants to see a sword duel, failing that.
19:45 mircea_popescu anyone saw liz taylor playing a jew ?
19:46 mircea_popescu (ivanhoe. great film. there's trial by combat!)
19:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641453 << the hft trading folk are about as dumb as the "serious www publishing folk". the "implement from scratch" thing is a fiction, there to justify insane and unjustifiable expense. exaclty how and exactly why any third hand "outside consultant" in third world sells random dopes on "whole new cms!!11" for their "project" so it is "for srs professional".
19:50 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 16:47 asciilifeform: if your operation seriously relies on the db, it implements custom db, from scratch, like the hft trading folks do.
19:50 mircea_popescu but in truth and behind the scene it's 100% code reuse in the most "found on forum and pasted in" manner.
19:51 mircea_popescu i am aware this sounds incredible. it's factual.
19:51 mircea_popescu about half the "pro" trading houses do about half of their trading on the basis of poorly understood and badly maintained excel spreadsheets.
19:51 mircea_popescu on it goes.
19:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: whether or not the 'nanosecs matter and we write it in asm' hft traders are real -- or mythical -- i do not know. but if hft worked the way it is purported to work, they ought to exist.
19:52 mircea_popescu asciilifeform same relationship as between script kiddie and trojan writers
19:52 mircea_popescu yes, someone somewhere wrote the asm
19:52 mircea_popescu then someone piled a java machine on top of that.
19:52 asciilifeform ( it they do not exist, it is then a piece of evidence in favour of 'hft does not actually exist, you cannot actually make any money by undercutting by nanosecond ' )
↖
19:52 asciilifeform *if
19:52 mircea_popescu it's a complicated discussion to carry in those terms.
19:53 mircea_popescu essentially speaking, front running is a natural crown monopoly, like hunting.
19:53 mircea_popescu how exactly this is disbursed, whether you need rifle to hunt and then crown taxes rifles, ie, through a technically mediated barrier, or purely conventional, is not properly speaking a technical discussion.
19:53 asciilifeform the people paying megabux for cage near nyse, nasdaq, either exist or are product of elaborate disinfo. if the former, it would make sense for them to carry out the -- comparatively inexpensive -- software optimization prior to buying $mil cage.
19:54 mircea_popescu the people paying themselves megabux aren't going to be doing for the reason they told you they did it.
19:54 asciilifeform now i could easily picture 'crown tax is so high, only imbecile hapsburg can afford it, so no optimize'
19:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform picture this : if tomorrow north korea came up with superlight hft method and tried to apply it... suddenly front running would be simply illegal.
19:55 asciilifeform ( in combination with 'it dun matter if you make it 5ns faster, packets from goldman sachs still take magical priority on the other end, For Reasons' )
19:55 asciilifeform aha.
19:56 mircea_popescu so, with some regret, i will confess that no, high finance doth not qualify as that place where they have real software (tm).
19:56 mircea_popescu au contraire, you'd be petrified what they run on.
19:56 asciilifeform that makes for at least 2 publicly-known designated-winners-losers equivalence classes. probably there are more.
19:56 mircea_popescu and no, the excel mentiuon was not a throwaway joke. it is factual reality, even today.
19:56 asciilifeform in what sense could a system that runs on excel etc. be described as 'high frequency' ?
19:57 asciilifeform can you even get 1Hz out of it ?
19:57 mircea_popescu ah no, separate concerns.
19:57 mircea_popescu i didn't propose they run the hft over excel
19:57 asciilifeform and for what does jane street co. hire ml, lisp, etc. programmers ?
19:57 mircea_popescu random.
19:58 mircea_popescu that's the problem of wastage in opaque faux capitalism.
19:58 mircea_popescu you get hired randomly.
19:58 trinque the accountant fellow I mentioned, for $100mil scale oil contract compliance, also excel macros.
↖
19:59 mircea_popescu heh.
19:59 trinque might be a feature (TM) (R)
19:59 asciilifeform trinque: i wonder how much of this is from a cargo-cult preference for 'what programmer monkeys WOULDN'T use'
19:59 asciilifeform 'send in a code nigger, if he barfs, our system is proper'
19:59 mircea_popescu from what i could discern, it's because of familiarity bias.
19:59 mircea_popescu "excel i understand" "no you don't" "but i've been using it forever" "not even that."
19:59 mircea_popescu "it makes me feel good." "go to the strip club."
20:00 shinohai http://archive.is/dbzpt <<< NYPD to emulate Ethereum blokechain for bodycam accountability
20:00 mircea_popescu bwahahahha
20:00 mircea_popescu o god that's going places.
20:00 asciilifeform asciilifeform worked for years in places where nearly everyone stretched excel long past breaking point -- bio, chem phd folx
20:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha. i expect same reason.
20:00 asciilifeform i found why they liked it. it wasn't even the familiarity (some walked in knowing not even it)
20:00 mircea_popescu it's their hypercad. "When i was a wee tyke this seemed like srs bzns"
20:00 asciilifeform it was for a quite legit reason:
20:00 asciilifeform the short ooda loop.
20:01 mircea_popescu right.
20:01 mircea_popescu this, however, is not as legit a reason as it seems.
20:01 asciilifeform long ooda loops are ~poison~, and that excel continues to win this contest, is to the undying shame of the field
20:01 asciilifeform folks who can tolerate unnecessarily long ooda loops when working with a comp,
20:01 asciilifeform are called programmers
20:01 asciilifeform and they get paid for this
20:01 asciilifeform but really for the pain tolerance
20:02 asciilifeform just like sewage dredgers are paid to smell shit.
20:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i make most of my money out of being capable to use the tool that's adequate for the job whereas everyone else just goes with the fastest loop.
20:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in sane field, the 2 are 1
20:02 mircea_popescu this seems about as unlikely as saying "in sane russia, sexually attractive women and women with pleasant personalities are the same woman"
20:03 mircea_popescu there's no hard guarantee such wonder is possible.
20:03 asciilifeform we're talking about a man-made world here.
20:03 mircea_popescu we are not.
20:03 asciilifeform there is no justification for the liquishit. none.
20:03 mircea_popescu well that may be.
20:04 mircea_popescu suppose you're making pcb. instant tracing, also ?
20:04 mircea_popescu in what parallel, if man made, universe ?
20:04 asciilifeform right here, in the cnc mill.
20:04 mircea_popescu heh. some problems are complex alfie.
20:05 asciilifeform everyone laughs at excel, but microshit did not invent spreadshit. spreadshit was 'killer app', arguably, for the original micros, because it introduces a modicum of sanity to the otherwise idiotic von neumann comp
20:05 asciilifeform makes it behave like a sane physical system, whether clockwork or circuit:
20:05 asciilifeform where you push a rod, and it pushes; pull - and it pulls.
20:05 asciilifeform instead of 'batching'.
20:05 asciilifeform batching is batshit.
20:06 mircea_popescu batching was the preferred mode of engineers. historically.
20:07 asciilifeform it is an artifact of painful rigidity. you cannot work steel the way one works plasticine, for elementary physical reasons.
20:07 asciilifeform machine shop has no 'putting on tool', cuts -- must be planned, and reduce to simple geometries; etc
20:07 mircea_popescu yeah well. anthropologically relevant though, created a whole identity mythos.
20:08 asciilifeform on a comp this rigidity does not exist ! ( when it does -- it is because of a long line of boneheads who wanted to emulate steel-cutting in all things )
20:08 mircea_popescu possibly.
20:08 asciilifeform btw most of the folx reading this now own a perfectly good example of a non von neumann comp and program for same -- FUCKGOATS
20:08 trinque this'd be one of those overly broad ones.
20:09 mircea_popescu i have no position here, merely observing the history of the thing.
20:09 mircea_popescu !!deed for instance works fine by my eyes, but it does not pass the "monkey do, monkey see" test.
20:13 trinque to quote my old boss, one of his better observations imo is that spreadheets (and db as discussed in thread) are tools for classification and distinction
20:14 mircea_popescu trinque the issue is that just because it felt convenient to the wee tyke it doesn't follow it is ~useful~.
20:14 mircea_popescu cocaine is the eminent example. it FEELS like it does things to you. it does not therefore HELP.
↖
20:14 mircea_popescu and this goes directly to all the "no mp, dope totally makes you a better thinker" threads.
20:14 trinque the vast majority of the accountant guy's job is defining categories, listing their properties, relating them to each other
20:15 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641735 << place I'm currently contracting at, a big bank in southeast (you can prolly guess), it is literally written in policy:no sql allowed, only excel
20:15 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 23:58 trinque: the accountant fellow I mentioned, for $100mil scale oil contract compliance, also excel macros.
20:15 lobbes Literally
20:15 trinque visicalc and descendants leaned most this way, and thus he still uses that when alternatives aparrently exist
20:15 mircea_popescu lobbes what happens when they starty paying the btc ransoms ?
20:15 trinque lobbes: of the NoSQLs of which I'm aware, that's the saddest
20:15 mircea_popescu you realise all it takes is for someone to salt the parking lot with hello kitty usbs.
20:16 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform guesses : massive golden toilet backuptrons installed )
20:16 lobbes Tis a purely political reason, of course
20:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform backup <-> realtime. iffy shit.
20:17 trinque mircea_popescu: what'd the guy's classification and distinction device look like in the alternative?
20:17 mircea_popescu i am not proposing an alternative for that function. doctor isn't in the line of proposing replacement for cocaine, and from the "i wanna feel good" perspective the whole pharmacopoea is a waste of space.
20:18 trinque or biologist, goes on safari, starts catalog of observations, begins drawing relationships between them
20:18 * lobbes was dismayed when I came in, automated a 40 hr excel proccess down to about 10mins just by using sql (access of all the god awful things) only to be told it was verboten
20:18 mircea_popescu let the man play with his excel and feel happy, just like some writers prefer to sketch their novels in gf's faeces on bathroom floor. none of this makes gf shit an economically relevant inkwell system.
20:19 lobbes Now I pour my brain into tmsr, much more rewardinf
20:19 lobbes *rewarding
20:19 asciilifeform lobbes: if you take work as a programmer where they program ~meat~ -- don't be surprised
20:19 mircea_popescu lobbes see, because they made the mistake of banning things instead of simply banning stupid.
↖
20:19 mircea_popescu you never want to ban things.
20:19 lobbes Yup
20:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if they 'banned stupid' -- would have to ban self, as a class, the entire yacht set
20:19 mircea_popescu aha.
20:19 lobbes That is a great summation
20:19 mircea_popescu hey, i see not the drawback.
20:21 asciilifeform i can see a legit pov for the 'no sql' folx. 'you will NOT introduce programmerolade into our process flow, creating work for maggots like yerself and marrying our corp to your lazy and entitled arse' approx.
↖
20:22 asciilifeform when whole thing is excel -- the 60 y.o. buffett at the top, theoretically understands the flow.
↖
20:22 asciilifeform when you let ~one~ flunky write ~one~ perl script, on other hand..
20:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641504 << From experience, there's a definite slot for learning filled by sql. i personally show girls how to use a db for their own shit, which may be simply grocery lists ("now tell me how many kgs of pepper we bought by day last year"). truthg be told the path to a structured mind is long and arduous.
20:23 a111 Logged on 2017-04-10 18:29 phf: ok, i guess we both know what the problem is. my solution is "study db related algorithms until you know enough to write a db", your solution, unless i misunderstand, seems to be "use an existing database a lot". i don't understand how learning, say, postgresql will get you from not knowing anything about db internal design to writing your own
20:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this naive view is mostly borne of not much using excel.
20:24 asciilifeform this unfortunately is not so. did use.
20:24 asciilifeform quite familiar with this particular wheelbarrow.
20:24 mircea_popescu the attempt to understand another's excel pile is not unliuke trying to grok the intended functioning of the preferred emacs setup of a rabid squirrel.
20:24 asciilifeform it's examinable, what.
20:24 mircea_popescu pfff
20:24 asciilifeform and yes, there is a turing-complete basic stuffed in there. but ~no one uses.
20:24 mircea_popescu in my own (limited) experience, every time i found myself consulting for this lot i had them write, by hand, in narrative form, what they thought their excels did.
20:25 mircea_popescu improved productivity 1500%
20:25 * asciilifeform can picture this.
20:25 mircea_popescu it's examinable in the sense xilinx is examinable.
20:25 asciilifeform i'd guess that it happens most to folx who are ~wholly untethered to reality ( financial models, say, of elaborate scamola that sums to 0 at the end of the day, rather than , say, titrations )
20:26 asciilifeform the excelolade of the people who asciilifeform worked with, who had to juggle physical objects every day, was reasonably sane.
20:26 mircea_popescu i guess that may be explanatory.
20:27 asciilifeform intelligent (in the glass bead sense) folx who are unbound from reality, tend to birth monsters.
↖
20:27 mircea_popescu before coming up with the "Write it down. By hand." i had an excel depacker, which cost me literal man-years to have made and tuned, and which was good but far from perfect.
20:27 asciilifeform this sounds agonizing.
20:28 mircea_popescu well... trade barriers rite.
20:28 mircea_popescu (and no, it NEVER happened that two people in the same team using the same tools actually had compatible notions of what the tools did.)
20:29 asciilifeform to revisit upstack : present-day asciilifeform does not agree with young-asciilifeform re 'excel is what poor illiterate folx who never learned Actual Programming, suffer with'. in an important sense it is superior to a good fraction of what passes for 'actual program'
20:29 mircea_popescu it's just not clear that the particular sense is actually relevant in any public sense.
20:29 asciilifeform specifically, the 'this produces no meaningful answer and i have nfi why' situation never happens.
20:30 asciilifeform it is more or less impossible in a spreadshit.
20:30 mircea_popescu and this goes right back ot the literacy vs hyeroglyphs thread, amusingly enough.
20:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but at the cost of, you know, http://trilema.com/2013/why-mpex-is-better-than-fiat-institutions-part-349085-we-dont-use-excel/#selection-31.16-31.118
20:31 asciilifeform at plenty of cost.
20:32 asciilifeform my disagreement was in re 'this is an illusory/masturbatory pleasure, like cocaine'
20:32 asciilifeform it is not necessarily so.
20:32 asciilifeform asciilifeform's chemists would NOT have been well served by being sent to learn sql.
20:32 asciilifeform or perl.
20:34 mircea_popescu and my party girls would not have been well served by the soviet dress fashions for professional females cca 1965.
20:34 mircea_popescu what's this prove.
20:35 mircea_popescu also, i dunno how relevant but factual in any case : 90% of in-house it support requests from excel users is exactly, "i did thing and it did i dunno what or why halp!1"
20:36 mircea_popescu which is ~how "from scratch for srs db" projects even end up engaged in by banks and their ilk. the it dept is pushing relentlessly for away-from-excel for this reason every single board meeting.
20:37 asciilifeform 'it dept' of course wants full employment for perlists.
20:37 mircea_popescu "we'll end up hiring two excel support people for every backofice gurl!!"
20:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, they want to do things that don't involve talking to girls or ~~~horror of horrors~~~ being at their call.
20:38 asciilifeform i can easily picture mircea_popescu's excelists tho. the thing does ~not~ behave gracefully at the outer limits of what it does.
20:38 asciilifeform wouldn't be a microshit product if it did, now.
20:38 mircea_popescu myea
20:42 asciilifeform but -- quite like the plastic scissors they issue to kindergarteners and asylum inmates, the thing ~does~ have a sweet spot in which it ~works.
20:42 asciilifeform and in that sweet spot, beats the shit out of perl.
20:42 asciilifeform not the least of reasons for this being that you don't need the deformed monkey any moar
20:43 asciilifeform can deal in 'human' concepts, that make sense on grid paper just the same as on the comp.
20:44 mircea_popescu possibly.
20:45 asciilifeform consider, visicalc was hyperbestseller among 'people who do things'; while the bare micro, even with rom basic -- was not.
20:46 mircea_popescu how much did it sell ? i'm not really familiar.
20:46 asciilifeform this is even though the latter is quite superior, at least in raw capacity, speed, to the former.
20:46 asciilifeform http://www.bricklin.com/history/intro.htm << author's www
20:48 mircea_popescu got a number to save me from fishing through the memorabilia tripod ?
20:49 asciilifeform 300 ( 1980 usd ) for the proggy
20:49 asciilifeform pretty hefty
20:49 asciilifeform and this dun include the comp
20:49 mircea_popescu no i mean, how many copies or units or such
20:49 asciilifeform 300k supposedly.
20:49 asciilifeform and quickly.
20:49 asciilifeform or hm nm
20:49 asciilifeform that was the pc port
20:50 asciilifeform initial release sold 700k (1mil total), claimed.
20:50 mircea_popescu that's a lot!
20:51 asciilifeform ( http://archive.is/d8V0S << another source claims 800k by may of '85 )
20:51 asciilifeform 5y after release.
20:51 mircea_popescu for the time it's quite hyper.
20:52 asciilifeform '...A few dealers knew what they were doing and got their salespeople excited about it. Because of VisiCalc, one of the Burlington, Massachusetts, dealers became the most successful Apple dealer in the country at that time. Two of its salesmen ended up as two of the founders of Lotus (the original team that brought out 1-2-3). We only sold about 1000 a month for the first few months because we had
20:52 asciilifeform to get the word out to the primary consumers, who were financial people. [Editor’s note: A total of over 800,000 copies were sold by May of 1985, when Lotus purchased Software Arts and ceased marketing VisiCalc]'
20:52 asciilifeform bricklin became, at least until rise of microshit and its cargocults -- a cult figure
20:53 mircea_popescu i can see why.
20:53 asciilifeform was in fact one of the few folx who made genuine advances for the micro. whose cake microshit proceeded to swallow.
20:53 asciilifeform this 800k (or 1mil, or whichever) is an amazing number, because it isn't a pile of britney records. these were ~people~ buying.
20:54 mircea_popescu if pressed i wouldn't even have imagined there were 1mn people who doi things left in the 80s us.
20:54 mircea_popescu puts in perspective what maga has to actually accomplish.
20:54 asciilifeform 'VisiCalc ran on a 24K-byte machine, 32K bytes with disk. '
20:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don't think su ever delivered 1mn of any kind of calculating machine, since we're on it.
20:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even the infamous 'felix' only sold 300k.
20:56 mircea_popescu ikr ?
20:56 asciilifeform iirc.
20:56 mircea_popescu and that was possibly largest.
20:56 mircea_popescu this has been a very informative discussion, i had nfi.
20:57 asciilifeform actually the 300k figure seems to refer to just 1 year.
20:57 asciilifeform likely moar existed -- thing was in production from end of '20s to early '80s !
20:57 mircea_popescu afaik the total run was a few hundred k items.
20:57 asciilifeform didja ever have one ?
20:58 mircea_popescu had ro clone.
20:58 mircea_popescu but 90s.
20:58 asciilifeform there were many many clones.
20:58 mircea_popescu yes.
20:58 mircea_popescu certainly saw yugo clone as well
20:58 asciilifeform original was german thing
20:58 asciilifeform odhner.
20:59 asciilifeform cranked arithmometers were spiffy, for their time, american 'manhattan' project ran on'em
20:59 asciilifeform (gurls, cranked, scribbled)
20:59 mircea_popescu certainly in the vein of the above excel ooda.
20:59 mircea_popescu there's truly no way to make it do strange things.
20:59 mircea_popescu babbage problem, of course, remains.
20:59 asciilifeform aha. and if it jammed, the oil bottle is right-there.
21:00 asciilifeform and - what's worst ? needs new gear?
21:00 mircea_popescu first-cleanner. then-oil. then-light cig. then put out fire.
21:00 asciilifeform 'babbage problem' is not escapable, it does not come from the poor machine, no. 'pebkac'.
21:00 mircea_popescu aha.
21:00 mod6 MEGA
21:00 mod6 LOG
21:01 mircea_popescu hola mod6
21:01 asciilifeform ohai mod6
21:01 mod6 o7
21:01 shinohai Hope you made popcorn mod6
21:01 mod6 i've been following along off and on all day.
21:01 * asciilifeform reads 'o7', thinks 'brigadier general..?'
21:01 mod6 need to get the last few hours
21:01 mircea_popescu it's how you do military salute if you're playing excel-in-space
21:01 mircea_popescu which it occurs to me asciilifeform might enjoy ?
21:02 asciilifeform lol, 3d spreadshit?
21:02 mircea_popescu !~google eve online
21:02 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: EVE Online - One community. Countless journeys.: <https://www.eveonline.com/>; Eve Online - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online>; EVE Online - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwF3VyalTHzL0L-GDlwtbRw>
21:02 shinohai ^
21:02 asciilifeform aaah it
21:02 mircea_popescu we even have / had a guild there
21:02 asciilifeform i had it on my list, for what to do with that wintel box
21:02 mod6 1BTC right?
21:02 mircea_popescu aha
21:03 mircea_popescu i dunno how active it is or anything ; but we were pretty rich if memory serves.
21:03 mod6 :]
21:03 asciilifeform last thing i played was, iirc, 'hearts of iron'. then lent the box to brother , in feb., and hadn't had time to touch it since
21:04 mircea_popescu i dun know that one.
21:04 asciilifeform ww2 micromanagement sim thing.
21:04 asciilifeform (demo level: you start as mussolini)
21:05 asciilifeform http://www.heartsofirongame.com << subj.
21:05 asciilifeform dunno if i recommend.
21:06 mod6 im about to try to load up this offline phys box with all the blocks.
21:06 mod6 wrote a perl one liner to cut them all apart with blkcut... now just gotta feed 'em in.
21:06 mircea_popescu ah i dun like ww2 stuff.
~ 15 minutes ~
21:22 mod6 ok there they go
21:22 mod6 15k blocks and counting
21:22 mod6 -verifyall & -caneat
21:22 mod6 ~0ms writes
21:23 mod6 nmon is running
21:23 mod6 box is: 24 CPU / 64Gb RAM / 1Tb Kingston SSD
21:23 mod6 lol, disk is probably going to start on fire.
21:24 mod6 40k blocks...
21:24 mircea_popescu a yea good point : folks plox fan your ssds when doing mass blockeat experiments etc.
21:24 asciilifeform i've yet to meet one that seriously warms
21:24 mod6 50k
21:25 mod6 i've got mine in a std enclosure and it's got a faned bp. but... if she fries, well, she fries.
21:25 mod6 a good test either way.
21:26 asciilifeform unless your environment is quite peculiar ( massively overheaded cage, or a satellite, or a pile of blankets?? ) typical ssd maxes out at 40c or so
21:26 asciilifeform at room ambient temp
21:26 asciilifeform *overheated
21:27 mircea_popescu i had one i couldn't touch. hence keep ssds in fanned thing
21:28 mod6 this is pretty f'ing awesome, actually.
21:29 shinohai I need a better SSD, these girls better step up their game.
21:29 mod6 shake it!
21:31 mod6 93k
21:39 mod6 there's like 180k+ blocks in blk0001.dat
21:40 asciilifeform mostly hollow aha
21:40 mod6 i cut apart 50 .dat files. noodle on that for a minute. and these dickweeds want BIGGER blocks.
21:43 mod6 asciilifeform: got that book from pong chu
21:43 shinohai All except lukejr, but he's just a contradictory blockhead
21:43 mod6 thx for the heads up
21:44 asciilifeform mod6: it's an ok b00k. there is not, afaik, a 'great' one
21:45 asciilifeform again i'll reminds, hard part for n00bs is not 'verilog' but rather the basic idea of 'program where all lines execute at once'
21:45 asciilifeform especially given as it is not quite so, and various sections have 'triggers' (particular signals that cause them to 'happen')
21:46 asciilifeform i recommend to study very carefully the diagrams that give examples of what gates particular snippets actually get synthed into, and why
21:46 asciilifeform (e.g., what is an inferred latch, and why do you virtually never want one.)
21:47 mod6 there's an example in here of a FIFO circular queue in verilog, neat.
21:48 asciilifeform best to think of it as 'in iron', rather than 'in verilog', other ways to specify the same circuit, get you same result.
21:49 mod6 werd
21:54 asciilifeform mod6: build yourself a copy of 'verilator'
21:54 asciilifeform worx ok
21:54 asciilifeform and will give you a little ability to debug (i hesitate to use the word)
21:55 asciilifeform a good chunk of the pain in this kind of work is the ~total lack of anything like the customary debugger. ( that, and the constraints of the medium - the very palpable differences between fpga and actual asic, but even in the latter there are physical delays )
21:55 mircea_popescu in other news, i deem http://trilema.com/2017/the-lordship-list-fourth-year/ a done deal ; trinque plox to update deedbot to reflect.
↖ ↖
21:56 mod6 mircea_popescu: cool
21:56 mod6 asciilifeform: ah, ok.
21:57 mod6 i was thinking about taking my xilinx board and seeing if I can throw your fg-genesis on there.
21:57 asciilifeform mod6: you could, but be mindful of the crystal
21:57 mod6 yeah, not sure if this one is ok...
21:57 * mod6 looks
21:57 asciilifeform mod6: if you want to talk to a ttl-usb serial dongle, you gotta match one of the classical baud rates, or you get rubbish (and not the desired rubbish, either, but patterned rubbish -- or nothing at all)
↖
21:58 mod6 i did get that xilinx platform cable usb deal in the mail too.
21:59 asciilifeform mod6: see also http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis#L86 .
22:00 asciilifeform you may recognize the idiom -- it's a divisor by 128.
22:00 mod6 86 +// div128, for UART's 115200b on 14.7456MHz crystal.
22:00 mod6 ah
22:01 asciilifeform if your dev board crystal is a power-of-2 multiple of your baud rate -- you're ok, just gotta change the divisor
22:01 asciilifeform if not -- problem.
22:01 mod6 gotcha
22:01 asciilifeform ( there is unfortunately no such thing as a serial port that eats arbitrary baud rates. )
22:03 mod6 the chip i've got is a 'xilinx spartan XC3S500E'
22:04 mod6 looking forward to getting into this stuff a bit.
22:05 mod6 for edu purposes, etc.
22:06 mod6 when i start actually doing somethings, i'll take some pics.
22:07 mod6 i'd like to audit one of these fgs soon too.
22:07 mod6 might give that a try tomorrow
22:08 mircea_popescu good blog material in any case.
22:08 mod6 ya
22:09 mod6 i may write up something on my website, or send something to qntra
22:14 mod6 speaking of which, my mom asked about BingoBoingo
22:16 mod6 she's been mainly 100% delirious. but in a moment of slurred-opiate semi-clarity, she asked me "hows BingoBoingo?"
22:16 mircea_popescu o.O
22:16 mod6 ^ my reaction exactly.
22:16 mircea_popescu opiates suck.
22:16 mod6 yeah, she's in hospice now. they're keeping her pretty comfortable.
22:17 mod6 she was semi-lucid until friday. but been pretty much not-eating & sleeping all day since.
22:17 mircea_popescu there is that.
22:18 mod6 well, she was sleeping all day on saturday. then for a moment, she woke up, got pissed off, tried to get out of bed, fell down. then wrestled two nurses, and sucker punched one in the face.
22:18 mod6 felt so bad for the young lady. it wasn't a hard punch or anything... but still. lol.
22:18 mod6 wtf.
22:19 mircea_popescu o.O
22:19 mod6 they came over and gave her a pretty big dose of valium<sp> or whatever.
22:19 mod6 then it was back to night-night.
22:21 mod6 i think the bed alarm threw her into a rage. the thing started going off like a UPS alarm.
22:22 mircea_popescu ah
22:23 mod6 it was quite something to behold. here's a lady, clinging to breath, hardly moves, then gets up and fights to young women.
22:24 mircea_popescu zee human body.
22:24 mod6 its something else 'eh
22:27 mod6 danielpbarron: hey, did you ever figure out whatever with your openbsd deed you were trying to do?
22:27 mod6 TomServo: any update on the issues you ran into?
22:36 TomServo mod6: Sorry, nothing to report as yet. Node is still running, wedged, and untouched. Haven't had time to delve any deeper.
22:37 mod6 Ok, thanks for the update.
22:38 mod6 ben_vulpes: so if i have a `std::map<ktype, std::vector<vtype>> stuffMap`, is it legal to say `stuffMap[k].push_back(newV)` << should be fine as long as newV is of vtype.
22:39 shinohai https://github.com/npm/npm/pull/16300 <<< omg it's Ryan X Charles' wet dream
22:39 mod6 pull my finger
22:45 mod6 150k
22:45 mod6 no fires yet
22:48 shinohai If the shitty, 4 year old hardware I run my node hasn't burnt down the house yet I'm highly optimistic for you mod6 :D
22:51 mod6 :]
23:00 * shinohai just likes shitty old computers ...
23:01 shinohai I'm still hopeful I'll find something that'll run on that Dell I salvaged a few weeks ago.
23:04 danielpbarron mod6, i think trinque is working on it
23:09 mod6 ah, ok. werd.
~ 19 minutes ~
23:29 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: i always wished there were such a thing as an ac with a throttle << Not throttle, needs adjustable clutch
23:30 asciilifeform the starting/stopping of the compressor and the blower is also massive waste of energy.
23:31 asciilifeform why not continuously variable heat pumping ?
23:31 asciilifeform compress as-needed, blow -- as-needed.
23:31 asciilifeform as determined by the actual leakage of the room walls.
23:32 asciilifeform ( if all ac used peltier junction, this would be quite trivial. unfortunately peltier is not actually +ev in comparison with mechanical compressor. )
23:32 asciilifeform you can't even ~get~ a peltier in anything like the size you would want for a room ac. would need hundred of'em.
23:33 asciilifeform ( and car-sized radiator for hot end. )
23:33 asciilifeform not car-radiator size. car-size.
23:34 asciilifeform is there such a thing as a variable-ratio compressor ?
23:34 asciilifeform seems as if -- there could easily be.
23:36 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> cocaine is the eminent example. it FEELS like it does things to you. it does not therefore HELP. << The problems with cocaine hcl powder is that in little time even that feeling goes that and you are left with only feeling of wanting moar cocaine
23:38 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> i am not proposing an alternative for that function. doctor isn't in the line of proposing replacement for cocaine, and from the "i wanna feel good" perspective the whole pharmacopoea is a waste of space. << This is why CIA popularized freebase salt of cocaine
23:38 asciilifeform if people dosed aspirin the way they dosed cocaine, they would decide that it, too, is useless.
23:38 asciilifeform nobody ~forces~ idiot to snort it.
23:41 asciilifeform the spanish first denied the indians they were working to death, their coca, then permitted again. this suggests that coca -- works.
23:42 asciilifeform for that particular value of worx.
23:42 asciilifeform ( pretty sure we had this thread. )
23:43 asciilifeform ( some modern folx -- gabriel_laddel ?? -- continue this fine tradition even today... )
23:46 BingoBoingo <mod6> she's been mainly 100% delirious. but in a moment of slurred-opiate semi-clarity, she asked me "hows BingoBoingo?" << I am doing well, celebrate 18 months of continuous sobriety later this month.
23:50 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> compress as-needed, blow -- as-needed. << Thinking on it, AC may be the one application where CVT transmission makes sense
23:51 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> seems as if -- there could easily be. << Probably low hanging fruit
23:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform soviets similarily denied afghani whatever, then permitted again. this suggests - empire doesn't honestly gas.
23:52 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> for that particular value of worx. << The second best treatment for addiction disorders is drugs of abuse
23:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc ww2 germany experimented with similarly cocainizing prisoners, for endurance, but came to 0, war ended
23:59 trinque this is the kind of thing of which you're disabused after you reach your personal tolerance of bros telling you their great business idea
23:59 trinque might give you the will to march, but all directions seem equally great ideas
← 2017-04-09 | 2017-04-11 → ↑

Random(trilema) | Download hourly DB snapshot | Get Source Code

Theme: Light | Dark | System Default