#trilema | 2018-06-19

trinque no, this seems perfectly sane.

~ 49 minutes ~

01:08

meanwhile in general, https://78.media.tumblr.com/8f50e762271b341d229ffdc73da92b3f/tumblr_nkraycJZrv1sr7d1mo1_1280.png

~ 8 hours 9 minutes ~

09:18

meanwhile, in other koch gpg2isms : https://archive.li/FWdDD >> '...signature verification routine parses the output of GnuPG with an incomplete regular expression, which allows remote attackers to spoof file signatures on configuration files and extensions scripts. Modifying the configuration file allows the attacker to inject additional encryption keys under their control, thereby disclosing passwords to the attacker. Modifying the

09:18

extension scripts allows the attacker arbitrary code execution' etc

09:23

and yet meanwhile, in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824742 : https://archive.li/wGKk1 << where dummkopf 'responsibly dislosed' a 0d to yubico, which then went on to: 'reported the issue to Google's Chromium browser project – the core software of Google Chrome – and received a $5,000 bounty in return'

09:23

Logged on 2018-06-13 01:32 asciilifeform: phf: speaking of which, consider the easiest winner , if the anti-patch condition is absent -- a google shitmonkey who knows the hole already and 'wins' on the monday right prior to patch tuesday.

~ 55 minutes ~

10:18

http://qntra.net/2018/06/us-looks-to-foreign-turboprops-to-solve-close-air-support-dilemma/ << Qntra - US Looks To Foreign Turboprops To Solve Close Air Support Dilemma

10:25

mornin'

10:28

ohai mod6

10:29

how goes? I need some of that gutrot coffee.

10:32

mod6: currently knee deep in saecular chores. you ?

10:34

atm ya.

10:34

need anything?

10:35

aside from a coupla additional pairs of hands, lol, nuffin

10:39

haha, ok. i hear ya on that part.

~ 42 minutes ~

11:22

asciilifeform regexp and sigverification, what would be a better mix.

11:23

regexp, like 'vise-grip', 'wrong tool for every job'(tm)(r)

11:23

"extension scripts", fancy that wonder. koch put ethereum in gpg before ethereum was even "a thing"

11:23

(of course, it was always "a thing" for the confederacy of dunces)

11:25

BingoBoingo that bit is fucking hysterical.

11:29

meanwhile in other phase transitions, https://78.media.tumblr.com/03d101f19282a42a664c501b322c7ef7/tumblr_nmugj04jRq1sh0xa6o1_1280.jpg > https://78.media.tumblr.com/e4390de82af217703afc9b4d2cfd5a4f/tumblr_nmugj04jRq1sh0xa6o3_1280.jpg > https://78.media.tumblr.com/6575219925d01f7d4db8c9ac788a39f1/tumblr_nmugj04jRq1sh0xa6o5_1280.jpg

11:29

mircea_popescu: the root lul, of course, 'pass, the Simple Password Store, is a shell script to use GnuPG for password management. Each password is stored in a separate file, encrypted with one or multiple GnuPG encryption keys.' << didja know this were 'needed'.

11:29

Run Moar passwordeaters.

11:30

once they bite the "features" apple, they're lost for humanity.

11:31

gpg bit that apple when it went along with the rfc2440 crapola

11:31

errything afterward is cherry on the cake.

11:32

( rfc2440, aka 'openpgp', classically usgological turd, complete with null ciphers etc )

11:34

anyway, to continue the mystery from yesterday ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-18#1826427 ), here's phase 2 : "Vi dichiaro che prenderò tutte le misure necessarie per tutelare i galantuomini dai delitti dei criminali. Non deve essere più tollerato che poche centinaia di malviventi soverchino, immiseriscano, danneggino una popolazione magnifica come la vostra." (il derpo @ agrigento).

11:34

Logged on 2018-06-18 16:19 mircea_popescu: here's a riddle for the student of history :

11:34

but hey, microshit pays him the moolah for Good Reasons, neh.

11:34

now : this fellow understands that the only legitimate reason for having a state in the first place is to protect the priviledge of some against the intolerable pressure of the many.

11:35

and he understands that police is either there to keep the niggers in line, in which case it is a legitimate organ of the state, or fails in this its only duty, in which case both it and the criminal gang backing it are strictly abominable.

11:35

this much, he gets, on his own power. and then, on the same "own power" that got this far, turns around and picks... THE WRONG GROUPS.

11:35

how the everloving fuck does this happen, then ?

11:36

this was who, mussolini ?

11:36

still, yes.

11:36

aa figures

11:37

and yes, "i'll take all measures to protect the lordship from criminals". doh. but then "criminals = the cool people ; the lordship = the baaaaaaa crowd" ?! what the fuck is broken in these brains, that they manage to evaluate 1=1 as true but then 1+1=1+1 comes out false ?

11:37

'hitler's only got one ball, mussolini -- none at all'(tm)(r)(amer. marching song of the period)

11:37

heh.

11:38

asciilifeform i can't help it, i'm psychologically threatened by ~partially working~ machinery. how the fuck does it juice apples but not oranges, this juicer ?

11:38

what, he got a cp50 chip in his missing ballsac ?

11:38

possibly bush II offers clue , in his infamous speech where 'some people call you illiterate losers; i call you: my base!' or how it went.

11:39

this is meaningless in the us, everyone there's an iliterate loser.

11:39

noshit

11:39

see, italy in the 30s ACTUALLY HAD people in it. us ~never had, as best as can be discerned, samuel clemens marks down the one or two he found in a 3k mile trip as extreme rarities, in the 1800s.

11:41

what part of mussolini puzzles mircea_popescu tho? is it the part where he picked the unwashed lusers over sicilians ? as i understand, he couldn't have 'picked' the sicilians, given as he wasn't anyone in their wot. he was of, and for, the unwashed.

11:41

(not that i'm proposing the "actually had" people in it had any fucking sense. that they didn't shoot mora the day of his "appointment" speaks volumes to the sort of retarded goatfuckers we're dealing with here.)

11:42

asciilifeform this is not true, however. he had an !!up, from cuccia, as discussed yest. and they knew "who he is", so that wasn't the impediment either.

11:42

hmm.

11:43

he understands what the state is, and for. he understands how the police works, and why. he however thinks going with the plebs in eritrea is a working plan. how the fuck!

11:43

possibly cargocultist of lenin then ? ( observe, lenin did not stand on , e.g., cossacks, his algo was 'largest mass of unwashed' )

11:44

i am not persuaded this is true re lenin.

11:44

on the contrary : lenin ignored systematically largest mass of unwashed, stuck strictly with the cool people he could encounter.

11:45

this is the deep dispute between trotsky and stalin : the former tried to continue lenin in this exact manner, and it didn't work out for him.

11:45

well ~nobody surrounds ~self~ with unwashed.

11:45

of course, by then the context had drastically changed, and stalin got a lot of mileage out of "trotsky wants to sell country"

11:46

but this is why things like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-08#1811392 are so ~effectual~. they manage to misrepresent history, and then misinform the judgements of the chitlins

11:46

Logged on 2018-05-08 18:38 mircea_popescu: and in today's dollop of hysterical lulz : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin manages to go through 10k words without even mentioning the nevzorov sisters, coincidentally the reason the fuckbuddy of some old imperial chick even got to be stalin's successor.

11:46

so they end up with "but of course inca". sure... except not irl.

11:47

earlier , lenin also got pretty good mileage from 'the white army wants to sell country' ( invited the intervents. which was a lethal mistake, after that red could 'come and fight the intervents, whites sold country' )

11:47

rather.

11:49

anyway, back to the mystery-ii, the only way out i see is exactly as yesterday. that thing discussed on trilema a decade ago : http://trilema.com/2009/romanii-si-munca/#comment-6410

11:50

("the solution is, don't pay them in money, they want to be paid in lottery tickets")

11:51

to mussolini's mind, the strange movements of halves of airplanes overhead seemed to promise ~more future~ than the predictable movements of the southern iron guard. germany HAY MAS FUTURO!!11

11:52

they had an exact copy of this in ro, also, neh

11:52

then he proceeded to "reconstruct" ye olde praetorian guard out of the pressed shitboard of youths from the periphery of rome.

11:53

asciilifeform antonescu you mean, the marshall guy ?

11:53

aha

11:53

romania had absolutely nothing.

11:53

it was a very strict "first come first serve", and the germans came first.

11:53

what's the operative diff b/w him and musso ?

11:53

romania had no kingdom of sicily.

11:54

right, but could've 'kept it in its pants' neh

11:54

how ? it had oil.

11:54

troo

11:54

someone was going to work ploiesti ; at the times discussed above (1920s) it was standard oil and some british speculators.

11:55

note that "re-taking romania" figured up there in the plans of hitler in his last fucking week

11:55

"can't do large scale anything without oil"

11:55

so, idea is , he didn't want ro to end up a persia ?

11:55

exactly. he said as much, repeatedly, and was plainly correct, which is why army followed.

11:55

logical.

11:57

the much-celebrated-by-axehandles, today as in the radio free europe days "historical parties" cocksuckers kept sending letters "pointing out the problems", in the jewfuriating way they go about this, like idiot 15yos going "but dad, if house is foreclosed we'll lose out on our investment in carpeting" sorta bs.

11:57

but they plainly knew they're being facetious cocksuckers.

11:58

still not entirely clear to me what antonescu had to gain from taking part in 'drang nach osten'(tm)(r). there's no oil in odessa.

11:58

there's two major factors, and a bunch of minor ones.

11:59

was it simply the basic 'us -- them, or they -- us ' ?

11:59

the universal oppinion of romanian officer corps, which, in romania, a country very german, were more than a third of the whole shebang, was that russians are literally worse than dogs.

11:59

the common expression in bucharst was "muscali cu coada", ie, "muscovites with tails", becauyse unlike humans, they still had tails.

11:59

this all stemmed from their behaviour in ww2, when they abandoned the front.

11:59

this much is clear. but what was to be had from invading the cynocephali lands.

11:59

this, in the 1910s, was simply not done. and they shot them like dogs, throughout the 1916s.

12:00

hey, the germans want to, who the fuck cares. we go and raze moscow, fujck them and may the word never be heard again.

12:00

romanian army was more than willing to exterminate all slavs, period and full stop.

12:00

afaik ro did not have an acute lebensraum problem

12:00

"next fucking time we have a deal, you cover the fucking front, cocksuckers"

12:00

no, they just disliked the continued existence of russophones.

12:01

that was one thing ; the other thing was that russia annoyed the shit out of romania by taking some small and inconsequential parcels of land that stephen managed to beat the turks out of repeatedly, a few centuries prior.

12:02

moldavia ?

12:02

this, incidentally, was one of the dumbest moves known to european politics.

12:02

asciilifeform yeah, bits and pieces of what became the ukraine.

12:02

takes 2nd place behind the su conquest of the western ukrs

12:02

aha

12:02

anyway, nobody actually wanted that land qua land, nor was it even fucking useful. but, idiots.

12:03

!!invoice ben_vulpes 0.40847278 "wire to the Pizarro DC sent 2018-06-12"

12:03

Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/03G88/?raw=true

12:03

now, among the minor factors -- romania, at the time a major european actor economically, stored its treasury in moscow before ww1. and well... it was lost.

12:04

!!v 7077C4293B97125785216EDD1DC83D604155C99A698AB4EF9FFE405AFF1E64DC

12:04

(which it genuinely was, if anyone knows what the fuck chaos revolutionary years were, it;s a wonder somebody didn't steal the hermitage buildings altogether)

12:04

Invoiced ben_vulpes 0.40847278 << "wire to the Pizarro DC sent 2018-06-12"

12:04

and we can keep going, but you get the idea. russians had managed to make themselves as impopular as humanly possible with the ~only martial neighbour it had at the time.

↖ ↖

12:04

which hermitage

12:05

the one in sankt leningrad

12:05

aaa

12:05

good chunk of it ~was~ picked up ( and, mostly, sold for hard currency in the west )

12:05

ikr.

12:06

tho, interestingly, mostly after '29

12:06

this all stemmed from their behaviour in ww2, << evidently, i mean ww1.

12:06

( rather than during revolution )

12:09

there's actually a few pieces in the american national gallery in washington, from that particular selloff

12:09

but anyway, i am actually willing to go on the record saying that had the russians either a) retreated more intelligently post revolution, which wasn't entirely unsupported or unsimpathized in romania or b) stayed the fuck out of land they, like anyone else, ultiately DIDNT EVEN WANT jesus christ,

12:10

the massacre of leningrad'd have been entirely avoided.

12:10

it's a fine example of "we promoted condolezza the nigger, and now we're fucked".

12:10

revolutionaries tend to pick fights above own weight class. ( recall the americans, marching into canada, ending with white house being burned by brits )

12:11

or, prior to this, the adventures of the french

12:11

all it took was retreating over a year, rather than over three weeks.

12:11

i am satisfied, for my own needs, that the "rulers" involved had no fucking idea what'ds going on, quite literally.

12:14

they went to retake pieces ceded earlier in brest-litovsk, and overextended.

12:15

( even the war with finns, can be framed in this picture, 'let's return what lenin oopsed away'

12:15

)

12:16

http://qntra.net/2018/06/after-months-of-whispers-schulte-charged-for-espionage-act-violations/ << Qntra - After Months Of Whispers Schulte Charged For Espionage Act Violations

12:17

BingoBoingo: both links go to same item ?

12:17

yeah well.

12:17

BingoBoingo

asciilifeform: For emphasis

12:19

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826770 << dun forget the poles also

12:19

Logged on 2018-06-19 16:04 mircea_popescu: and we can keep going, but you get the idea. russians had managed to make themselves as impopular as humanly possible with the ~only martial neighbour it had at the time.

12:19

right ; and notice how it worked out the exact same fucking way, poles were out for blood.

12:20

( here's a stalin puzzler : after ww2, he gave the poles, gift-wrapped, silesia -- good chunk of their current-day footprint. )

12:23

i thought received wisdom is "buffer state with prussia"

12:23

sure.

12:23

!#s gonnen mir nicht

12:23

1 result for "gonnen mir nicht", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gonnen%20mir%20nicht

12:24

on, lol, czech border.

12:24

hey, fredrich had it.

12:24

aha

12:29

BingoBoingo: in related lulz, re the puzzler of 'why schulte sat around in usa waiting to be picked up', apparently , per the volkischer beobachter, 'Schulte had long been a suspect of investigators exploring the leak, but before Monday, he had been held on separate child pornography charges. Manhattan U.S. Attorney Geoffrey S. Berman said in a statement that investigators looking into Schulte found the pornography in his residence.

12:29

His personal computer, federal prosecutors alleged, held more than 10,000 images and videos of such material, protected under three layers of passwords.'

12:29

'arrested on charges stemming from the porn in August 2017'

12:29

BingoBoingo

asciilifeform: Oh we lulled about that in May

12:30

lettre de cachet lulz

12:30

why else even have the whole "child pornography" thing.

12:30

aaha

12:31

"these magical bits were found on '''your''' computer, and as we all know NOBUS coulda put 'em there"

12:31

aha, the whole 'digital evidence' edifice.

12:31

"so arrest yourselves ?"

12:32

if i everyone wasn't such a fucking retard, we'd have a lawyer joined up by now, and i could sponsor his clerical costs to send amici briefs to each and every single case involving "digital evidence" arguing it's a govt plant.

12:32

( recall, iirc 2015, some kid strapped a , what, 'beretta', to quadcopter, which -- possibly surprisingly -- wasn't banned yet; the next day picked up for 'childporn' )

12:33

it'd be a decent comedy lulzmine, but then again... ustards too fucktarded to even http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-08#1794007

12:33

Logged on 2018-04-08 01:43 douchebag: If I need to print off these flier, if I include the reciept of the printed fliers will you remburse them ?

12:33

in usa, lawyer is just another type of inca official, like 'jurist' in old su

12:34

asciilifeform you know, this was a major lulz in "western europe" cca 1980s, when all sorts of bums and other vagrants in advanced states of dishevelement showerd up. "we escaped COMMUNIST HELL!!!!" "really ? how come everyone likes it there ?" "no they hate it there!!! everyone hatges it!!!" "Really ?!"

12:35

'erryone hates it, all the lifts smell of piss. oh btw, where is the lift here, i gotta go'

12:36

amusingly, re "inca official", thios is not so. about 2/3 of the nominally qualified pay the "education" tax but have no income to show for it.

12:36

much more like argentina than soviet union.

12:36

the ameritards have a 'gold rush' culture, destroyed several professions this way

12:37

the 'prospectors' eagerly buy up claims, shovels, picks, on credit, and from there on it goes.

12:38

typical street tard here still believes that 'lawyers are loaded', and even programmers, etc

12:38

'i saw on tv'

12:39

the ~employed~ juris doctor folx -- inca officials.

12:39

In regards to hanbot and mircea_popescu negrating me, I did read the logs and wanted clarification about the discussions that took place which lead to mircea_popescu negrating me.

12:39

ohgawd

12:40

douchebag: as i understand you dun have long at the microphone; care to say something pithy ?

12:41

!!gettrust douchebag

12:41

L1: 0, L2: -3 by 5 connections.

12:42

yer standing on the trap door, douchebag

12:42

got last words ?

12:43

I just wanted clarification about the discussions that had taken place, that is all.

12:43

douchebag: what's unclear ?

12:44

douchebag: various folx gave you all sorts of interesting open problems . didja make an earnest stab at even one ?

12:44

douchebag: and the sheer cheek, to ask for paying contracts, without having done any such thing

12:46

I'm looking through the logs right now to find exactly what was unclear to me.

12:46

douchebag: better be quick about it, i expect mircea_popescu will pull the lever when he comes back from tea-and-chix or wherever

12:47

( i dun particularly care either way, douchebag , you're his student, not mine )

12:48

In regards to your last question, I'm willing to work - however, I'm not going to spend my time working without any sort of compensation.

12:48

douchebag: when you got your saecular gig, didja simply walk in and ask ? or didja do something to convince'em

12:49

however, lawyers in most places are generally poor.

12:50

mircea_popescu: they had an ok time for a spell, with unofficial cartel ( jd from nomenklatura schools, e.g. harvard, were auto-employed ) but as i understand this train has left

12:51

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-17#1826221 << I wanted clarification on the conversation that lead to this

12:51

Logged on 2018-06-17 16:32 mircea_popescu: !!rate douchebag -1 as it turns out, the more elaborate effort one puts into distinguishing gold from sand, the more elaborately sandy sand the one ends up with. gold is irrespectively evident on the first pass.

12:51

everyone had an ok time after depopulation event, most recently ww2,

12:51

but also periodically after "indian peace" etc.

12:51

this is not related to profession, it's a demographic pressure thing.

12:52

mircea_popescu: i buy it

12:52

mexicans are having an ok time with the progressive moving of erstwhile us inhabitants into their dreamer tanks.

12:52

poles, similarily, in europe. and so on.

12:52

douchebag: you walked in, seemed to mircea_popescu to be a promising student, then asked to demonstrate some ability to do somrthing useful, and then elaborately wasted various folxs' time

12:52

douchebag: and then asked for paid gig, even.

12:53

I offered to work for free with the promise of payment of the job successfully completed.

12:53

douchebag: fwiw i dun get paid in anyffing edible, i work with mircea_popescu out of principle. ditto, for the most part, the other folx here.

12:55

douchebag looky, the place's not for you. you're not smart enough to be here. what's so hard to grok about this ? some people are smart, some people aren't smart, you're not smart. what, you have to be dragged out, your legs don't work, what is it ?

↖ ↖ ↖

12:55

recall how he walked in, 'i'ma break all yer shit'

12:55

where are the wunderwaffen, douchebag ?

12:55

'twas riotous.

12:56

!#born douchebag

12:56

2018-01-11 <douchebag> douchebag

12:56

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-11#1768869

12:56

it's been a while.

12:56

asciilifeform: you'd be amused by the latest emacs release, "Limited form of concurrency with Lisp threads" "Emacs now uses double buffering to reduce flicker on the X Window System" "Flymake has been completely redesigned" "TRAMP has a new connection method for Google Drive" "A systemd user unit file is provided". it's almost like a self-parody

12:57

maaan

12:57

did you sort these phf, or did they ?

12:57

phf: dun look at me, my emacs bin reads 8 Apr 20 2013

12:57

because i kept going from double take to double take, "seriously, someone uses google drive ?!" then "wait, system what ?!"

12:57

mircea_popescu: What makes someone smart enough to be here exactly then?

12:58

mircea_popescu: not only is it their order, there's barely anything else mentioned in there https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/index.html#Releases

12:58

and nobody said anything, either ?!

12:58

douchebag: you can point to any of the l1 folx, and find 1, usually several, useful things they've built. begin there.

12:58

the thing's dead, what. this is the direct equivalent of arab kid scratching ins'allah on inside of pharoh tomb.

12:59

"oh look, pharoh era allah mention!!" "lol right"

12:59

mircea_popescu: it's not merely dead, but fossilized many yrs ago, all of the living users begin installation by scraping off more or less errything added since 2000 or so

12:59

I'm more than capable of programming/building/writing/ect...

12:59

asciilifeform and none of them forked it.

12:59

because fucked in the head.

12:59

lol naggum tried..

13:00

the great glorious gleaming victories of men alone.

13:00

btw trinque which emacs is in your ebuildtron ?

13:00

douchebag their mother.

13:00

trinque: ( need a vintage snapshot ? i can supply. or for that matter phf has one. take yer pick )

13:01

asciilifeform phf in any case it's high time emacs is either dropped or published.

13:01

The problem is, I have a lot of things going on in my life and I need a source of income. I don't have time to work on projects right now without ending up homeless.

13:01

lol dropped. from my cold dead hands (tm)

13:02

douchebag: somehow asciilifeform , phf , et al, still able to work on interesting things ~and~ not homeless

13:02

well... how would you feel about forking emacs, phf ?

13:03

thing is quite ripe for the trb treatment.

13:03

and phf is quite ripe for a major signature project like that ; eulora dun seem to interest him, so...

13:05

asciilifeform: I barely have any free time to do anything because of my job.

13:05

hanbot

lol that escalated quickly

13:05

douchebag: i suffered from same thing for many yrs; go and find a slightly less all-consuming gulag

13:06

douchebag: fully expect that it will take you yrs. you may have to learn a new profession.

13:06

douchebag: this is not a catastrophe when you're 19 y.o

13:06

meanwhile in bouncy giggle, https://78.media.tumblr.com/c47a357995357639904e44a60eccbeaa/tumblr_oau2nznLUW1tvy3cwo6_540.gif

13:08

douchebag: i thought handing vulns over to sv corp responsible dicksucksure departments was a sure path to riches

13:08

douchebag: when you walked in, were all 'i'm making bank pentesting' etc. what happened to that.

13:08

I made $300 today doing it

13:08

douchebag: it helps to learn to tell the truth, at least in spare time, as hobby. folx dun like liars. ( and yes lie is mandatory in usg/sv. but it dun win you any friends here. )

13:10

if all this "milkmaid didn't cut it as duchess" patter ends up drowning out http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826891 ima be pissy.

13:10

Logged on 2018-06-19 17:02 mircea_popescu: well... how would you feel about forking emacs, phf ?

13:10

mircea_popescu: he's all yours, knock out the hanging stool whenever you feel like

13:10

However, I still want a garunteed source of income

13:10

in the event I don't find any vulnerabilities that week

13:10

!!down douchebag

13:11

rip.

13:11

hanbot

mircea_popescu highlight is specifically for visibility in a swamp neh

13:11

ideally.

13:12

asciilifeform: isn't one, can sit in the next vpatch

13:12

trinque do you actually use emacs ?

13:12

trinque: 'which emacs?' prolly deserves a thread. lessee what phf says, i bet he has an earlier one than mine

13:13

what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?

↖ ↖

13:13

mircea_popescu: I do indeed

13:13

mircea_popescu: i'm thinking, i'm not opposed to the idea, but i was also the person saying in logs that emacs is harmful and should be abandoned altogether. i can bring together whatever's asciilifeform and trinque are using for their workshops, and adopt it for myself also..

13:13

with pile of homespun elisp

13:13

phf: it is 'harmful and oughta die' in same way as linux

13:14

phf: but unfortunately nothing like a workable replacement exists today.

13:14

phf we will have to somehow resolve this issue, because neither of the current outcomes is seemly. having republicans use the google drive systemd website thing is idiotic ; taking people's shit is idiotic. wut do.

13:14

phf explain it to me again, why should it be abandoned ?

13:14

(me used and abandoned in less than a year decade+ ago, so...)

13:17

my personal objection to it is that it's a time sink, it's easy and satisfying to customize, but it never quite gets to being a complete solution without major work put into it (ala lucene)

13:17

and this is a structural problem ?

13:17

it's my personal problem

13:18

consider -- if we agreed as indeed we seem to have that scripting language (eg, for eventual webatron, and for everything else) should be lisp dialect,

13:18

it's ~every emacsist's problem . at the same time, it is , like old arthritic pair of hands, better than no hands.

13:18

elisp may actually be very much worth explicitly studying ?

13:18

ie it seems to me the ~attempt~, whether it should succeed or fail, will be productive nevertheless.

13:19

that's very true, elisp is not particularly bad as a scripting language. with some effort can be stripped of extra baggage

13:19

mircea_popescu: elisp is a gnarly surviver of dark age 1970s lisps, suffers -- unfixably -- from problems long ago solved even in 'scheme' (e.g. 'funarg problem')

↖ ↖ ↖

13:19

asciilifeform yes, but you idiots being what you are i can't discern if it's "backwards pistol is every grenadier's problem because it fires backwards" or "bayonett is every recruit's problem b ecause attempts to sit on it".

13:19

mircea_popescu: the best object of comparison is imho trb.

13:19

emacs has been around for 500 years and NOT A SINGLE COGENT DISCUSSION of this matter is to be found anywhere.

13:20

we had no fewer than 3 'emacs is duct tape' threads here.

13:20

i was counting the "experts" outside of here. those things that exist, you know.

13:20

aaa

13:20

lol

13:20

can you answer this ? is the "emacs is fun to customize, and comes with guarantee that it will solve any x hour problem in x * 1.17 ^ your age hours" ?

13:21

is this BECAUSE EMACS ? or is it because idiots ?

13:21

in heathendom it is always either 'eh gnarly pos who needed it ever' or 'hands off my sacred animal, i'll shoot'

13:21

*

trinque lives in the thing as window manager even

13:21

trinque: which version was your original baseline by the way?

13:21

didn't take that long to get to the point where I can throw tiled window arrangements on screen with a few keyboard twitches

13:22

iirc I ran 24 for a while, am on 25 atm, but am not vouching for that version.

13:22

mircea_popescu: largely because idiots. however there's a number of structural problems (e.g inability to handle word wrap in anything like a reasonable way) that attract ~infinite kludge-hours from all sorts of folx

13:22

trinque so are you basically taking the stand where you swear that emacs is actually productive, in the sense of taking less time to customize for and solve new problem than trivial approach, and therefore it's the incorect habits of the common user rather than the harmful structure of emacs that's to blame ?

13:23

*

asciilifeform 24.3.1

13:23

because this is a major, no, strike that, this is THE major fucking decision here.

13:23

and we'd better get it right.

13:24

I don't venture too far down the tree of possible customizations beyond assemble workbench, make tools readytohand, start working

13:27

I would stand by the claim that emacs *can* be a time-sink, just as moving your desk around the office each day can, but it doesn't have to be, and isn't inherent in the tool

13:27

hm.

13:28

because yes, the exact sort of objection (we're only counting the cogent ones, washed out of 10bn words of idiocy outside the gates) brought against emacs can (and was) brought against desk by orcs. "o, by the time you're done moving it around the meadow the boar long left" "what boar ?" "the one you were going to shoot inkwell at, silly." "oh i c"

13:28

well if we're talking about moving your desk around the office, then emacs is kind of tool that comes with various desk parts, and you can attach them together, but one of the legs is going to be short, so you spend some time replacing the desk leg, etc. etc.

13:28

is it though ?

13:29

pls don't ask me anything about emacs. i use (neo)vim. tried several times to use emacs and gave up in anger - for example, there isn't even universal keystroke to change between windows/close a window.

13:29

phf can you reduce this short leg metaphore to a strict example ?

13:29

jurov word.

13:30

eh? c-c o and c-x 0

13:30

trinque: he's prolly thinking of toplevel x windows

13:30

can't really judge the thing on keybindings. they're right there to change

13:31

^

13:31

^

13:31

'universal'-anyffing is a mirage

13:31

( and who the FUCK cares that something doesn't work uniformly on e.g. microshit ? )

13:31

trinque there was always some mode or context or something where it did not work

13:31

dawgs, the question was as to usercount. he answered, that he dun use it. what moar.

13:31

in so far asciilifeform is concerned, the 'universal' workstation is emacs-in-ratpoison.

13:32

and the basic keys of this, are the universal keys.

13:33

jurov: of all the sharp edges emacs indubitably has -- i have yet to witness this one.

13:33

eh, sometimes you q, sometimes c-g, other times ..., I get it

13:33

mircea_popescu: my short log metaphor example would've been the key bindings. there are conventions, they are not always followed, and often they have to be recustomized on a per-mode basis, or else you just memorize the abysmal defaults and stick to them.

13:34

as repeatedly pointed out by e.g. naggum, the defaults pre-date pc kbd and are ~guaranteed to give you carpal disease

13:36

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836 << oblig lul

13:36

phf yes; but amusingly asciilifeform doesn't admit this. somehow.

13:36

there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa

13:36

l, sometime around 24, for newline to now mean newline and indent, ... in most modes

13:37

not admit which ? it's obvious as daylight that the thing is a danger to life and limb if uncrated by naive lamer and used as-is

13:37

asciilifeform that keybindinds are short leg.

13:38

the default ones aren't merely short leg, but rusty nails protruding in 9000 places on 'desk'

13:38

asciilifeform note that when jurov pointed it out, you jumped. why ? if you know this is so, then it is so.

13:38

i jump because it became clear that he stabbed himself on such a nail and ran off screaming

13:38

and the discussion isn't "default ones". discussion is "cultural ones", ie, "the complete mass of expectations"

13:38

this one's more complicated.

13:39

v19 most people agree was the pinnacle of old school emacs, making that the default though is entirely impractical since most of the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along the versions is the movement from "pure emacs" towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.

13:39

yes well. complicated. discussing the simple things in lieu of the things being discussed is not much of a strategy.

13:39

proper way to use it is to M-x and run the function you want, and when that starts to ache you bind it to something quicker

13:39

everything behind a keybinding is also an M-x away

13:39

trinque so shockingly similar to how... #trilema bot ctrl sq work ?

13:40

phf the problem there is, that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing this.

13:40

should be thrown out.

13:40

mircea_popescu: my current understanding , is that each emacs user alive , at some time in his life, took the thing and whittled away the spikes that his particular hands fell on most often.

13:40

asciilifeform and independently, and secretly.

13:41

which, imo, is enough to PERMANENTLY bury even the notion of "open source" as a "collaborative" endeavour.

13:41

eyeglass prescriptions are also in this sense 'independent and seekrit'

13:41

not in the slightest. they're standardized.

13:41

xahlee actually went as far as releasing egroemacs where he reworked every single keybinding, making the result obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild

13:41

phf why would a script depend on keybidnings ?

13:42

(why the fuck he runs adwords is another question for another time)

13:42

mircea_popescu: scripting in emacs is to great extent about customizing the ux behavior of the system

13:43

so ?

13:44

so a set of functions that modify the contents of the buffer will usually include among other things script specific changes to keybindings, that are designed to slightly adjust the default global and make assumptions about what that default global is.

13:44

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826979 << phf i for one would not be opposed to 'rewind to 19 and patch as-needed', like we did with trb.

13:44

Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf: there's also the thing that emacs started as a lisp machine tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and then slowly moved away from those conventions towards "user come to expect". we can't even talk about consistency here because things change drastically from v19 to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but these days "everyone" expects return to newline and indent so the change has been globa

13:44

phf and i'm a troglodyte for thinking this isn't right ?

13:45

mircea_popescu: it's part of my rant "why emacs is evil"

13:45

so no

13:45

as it stands right now, i truly can't grok the fundamental difference between the behaviour you describe and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-17#1814985

13:45

Logged on 2018-05-17 19:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the machine itself, hardware-wise, is incapable of multiuser. it leaks its memory via cache timings on 3 or 4 different layers ; it lacks its state via nic delays, it leaks like a sieve.

13:45

seems to me it's the exact same problem, cat held by tail trying to scratch the hand holding it.

13:46

mircea_popescu: emacs is a 'modal' system, i.e. every programming language gets a mode, implemented as a set of elisp proggies, that completely changes the behaviour of the editor to (ideally) make it entirely suited to writing that particular form of text

13:46

asciilifeform with you so far.

13:47

the gnarl begins with the fact that all of these modes, were created by different folx, with no coordination

13:47

well so then would you agree that " obviously incompatible with most elisp in the wild" is actually a desirable situation ?

13:47

it's an AST editor, attaches a user interface to a parsed AST, keybindings have been considered part of the UI for a given grammar

13:47

inasmuch as most elisp in the wild is broken.

13:47

better situation would be "here kid, have some functions. it's your job to bind them"

13:48

trinque why better ?

13:48

mircea_popescu: this was the philosophy that produced 'climacs', an ab initio rewrite. which afaik ~nobody uses.

13:48

asciilifeform why not ?

13:48

mircea_popescu: because I don't want to discuss with anyone how my own private desk is arranged

13:48

cuz 'no useful modes'

13:48

sorta the bsd problem.

13:48

"nah, can't bend the girl over that corner. right corner is the pussy tray!"

13:48

trinque so then your desk can't be part of paperwork delivery because courrier doesn't know how to leave you paper ; and you'll have to clea nthe room yourself as the black woman hired to clean the place can't interact with your desk ?

13:49

nah, it means I can speak any language I want to my girl, and she still knows how to take the mail from the courier

13:49

worse yet, climacs was afaik never properly finished ( the redraw is glacial, even on a heavy comp, and various pieces to this day broken ) because nobody could be arisen to properly finish it.

13:49

asciilifeform so the proper thing to say is, "climacs never existed"

13:49

mircea_popescu: it's a stillborn thing, afaik.

13:50

not every time a dweeb dreams up a situation where he talks to the girl across is a relationship.

13:50

trinque i confess i'm lost in metaphore. how do you map "i dunno how the fuck you close this damned thing" operator situation to it ?

13:51

mircea_popescu: climacs was above a momentary wad of spit, a quite substantial amount of work was sunk into it. but it did not add up to something that can be used.

13:51

alright.

13:51

I'm proposing the right design is that in installing any module for the editor, you must as a matter of protocol attach its functionality to your keyboard in order to use

13:51

asciilifeform: would you actually use a version 19 of emacs, if we managed to bring it up to date? it's almost a rhetorical question, since the result is most likely going to miss all the third party modes that you currently use without extensive amount of elisp patching

13:51

trinque so putatively, if i wish to tell someone some choice bits about his mother's sexual preferences in russian, i must first map A to A ?

13:51

freedom rather than bureau of keybindings, disorganized and distributed in the heads of shithub derps as it is

13:52

phf: i don't have ~that~ many elisps that'd need repair.

13:52

phf: it's a finite amt of work, that can be stretched out over time.

13:52

mircea_popescu: depends on whether c-o to switch windows is cosmic truth or finger length / hand shape

13:52

phf: if slime and ada mode can be made to run, it'll be a livable emacs per my lights.

13:52

e.g. i'm using 22 for work, and in order to get slime working on it, i had to revert slime to some 2010 version, which in turn wasn't quite compatible with sbcl, etc. etc.

13:53

phf: slime aint exactly trb, it's, what, 50kB ?

13:53

true

13:53

fixable.

13:53

why slime when elisp ?

13:53

mircea_popescu: slime is an emacs 'mode' for working with commonlisp.

13:54

yes... ?

13:54

should i have asked "why elisp when slime" ?

13:54

mircea_popescu: is the q 'why not write major proggies in elisp ' ?

13:54

well in my case btcbase is written in common lisp, so slime, unless i also rewrite btcbase in elisp

13:54

phf i have nfi what you're doing. this is what this opening of the pandora box is all about, trying to grok it once.

13:54

mircea_popescu: answ is, it's about on par with quickbasic in re syntax, memory utilization, stability.

13:54

dark ages interpreted lisp.

13:54

so why keep it ?

13:55

climacs was the result of 'let's throw it out'

13:55

theoretically no good reason to keep it. aside from the fact that current body of emacs is largely composed ~of~ it.

13:55

well no, climacs was "above a momentary wad of spit, but it did not add up to something that can be used."

13:56

so basically the correct move is, throw out emacs, rewrite it in sane lisp ?

13:56

throwing it out otherwise involves what, vimscript? or py, rubby, lua, etc. bindings

13:56

trinque werll no, slime.

13:56

mircea_popescu: this was always the Right Thing

13:56

^

13:56

but the hero to actually do The Right Thing, never arose.

13:56

and he'll need 9000 hands.

13:56

is this an intractable problem in itself, or do the sort of people who could do it, keep getting distracted with idiocy ?

13:57

this is I'm sure why gabriel_laddel got some attention for a wbit

13:57

mircea_popescu: i get it, i'm being sloppy because i want it to be obvious that the box is indeed pandora's box

13:57

mircea_popescu: it ain't intractable, and ranks substantially below, resource-wise, e.g. replacement of gcc

13:58

but far costlier than, e.g., replacement of 'diff'

13:58

it's about on par with full replacement of trb.

13:58

trinque aha. something along the lines of http://trilema.com/2013/squares-do-morals-a-porno/#selection-519.0-519.243 i always figured (which, oddly enough, is not in logotron!)

13:59

asciilifeform i'd have tyhought so!

13:59

it's a fucking ide for chrissakes!

13:59

( granted, a defective 'replacement for trb' will give you a reactor meltdown, whereas a climacs-like abortion will simply create grumbling would-be users who revert back to emacsism )

13:59

exactly. it's a "risk free" adventure in the sense all one risks is own time.

13:59

entirely correct.

13:59

eminently fixable, too, as problem === pain now.

14:00

climacs also had insane resource usage and equally large dependencies, can't run it without mcclim, and we've had a thread about that.

14:00

( last we heard, gabriel_laddel was still out there in the desert somewhere, trying to fix climacs )

14:00

most all of it is "so if it hurts, don't do that"

14:00

so it was slow, potentially structurally so because of mcclim to begin with

14:01

but much to my surprise, you demonstrated a tower of ductape lisp-flavoured drink that was fast.

14:01

slightly upstack -- even if mircea_popescu were to proclaim 'we gotta have climacs', ~100% of the work will be done ~in~... emacs

14:01

there's also portable hemlock in common lisp and edwin in scheme

14:01

ergo gotta have a trb-frozen emacs.

14:01

*

mircea_popescu fully expected another rehash of "oh, it's glacial", as people then present no doubt remember.

14:02

asciilifeform not really ; can get away with letting grandfathered systems work it. exactly how we bootstrap ada.

14:02

will be gnarly if cuntoo dun build grandfather-emacs without major butchery.

14:02

this is why I don't intend to put emacs into the genesis

14:03

gotta leave room for a few runs at it

14:03

it's a limited window, between (now, when we get the replacement going)

14:03

potentially -- years

14:03

by this logic could just as well omit trb from cuntoo

14:03

potentially -- black guy with erection standing at your door about to ring bell.

14:03

lol

14:03

asciilifeform: omitting everything from genesis but that which brings you to a shell

14:04

if you don't wanna be potentially sexed, don't potentially open the potent doors.

14:04

trinque: recall, there was a headache with emacs on musl

14:04

yeah, there's patches to be had though

14:04

( if it ain't resolved -- asciilifeform can't use, fullstop )

14:04

aite

14:04

that headache essentially enforces an emacs 25 though

14:04

phf which ?

14:05

phf: does it ? how ?

14:05

mircea_popescu: the emacs headache on musl that asciilifeform mentioned

14:05

yes but be specific! he asks how, i ask which, same deal.

14:05

yeah, i'm slow right now, but i'll get there

14:06

well, lisp machines have this concept of loading code into memory and then dumping the memory image for a fast restart later

14:06

gentoo musl overlay has an emacs-24.5.r5

14:06

emacs does the same thing, except in order to do image dump it used some internal glibc (!!!) hack

14:07

at some point the implementation was reworked, i was certain that was 25, but trinque just said that he has a 24 version

14:07

phf: any idea how much this routine weighs ? what would it take to port to musl ?

14:08

( and, just how much loss of load speed are we talking about, if it is thrown out entirely, and emacs gets to compile ~all~ of its elisp erry time it loads ? )

14:08

asciilifeform: well, it's been ported, but i've no idea how, last time i looked at it was pre-rework and i couldn't figure it out. trinque just said that the musl version of emacs he has is 24.5, so presumably that works

14:08

http://www.openwall.com/lists/musl/2015/02/03/1

14:08

prolly backportable then

14:08

ftr, i don't believe this "save object code" thing is handled correctly.

14:09

mircea_popescu: it was an ugly hack around the horrendously slow interpreted elisp

14:09

because while pompously called "memory dump", it rather is just "make a binary out of lisp".

14:10

asciilifeform yes.

14:10

mircea_popescu: it's not, but as the mail trinque linked points out "the right solution requires a significant overhaul by someone with expertise in emacs internal"

14:10

well, the soviets seem tho be inclined to think that's you.

14:10

( even on my opteron, emacs is still a ~five second load , note )

14:10

better punishment for putting a funny snippet in an online chat has never been metted out!

14:12

well, i was hoping this conversation will steer towards which version we should go with. i'd love to try bringing 19 up to date, but i'm afraid the result of that effort will be that asciilifeform and trinque will just keep using own version on workshop. further into future we move, the gnarlier the code gets (i think i pasted 10x size increases with every new emacs release)

14:12

phf: this really calls for a ben_vulpes-on-trb-style archaeological dig

14:12

i.e. what exactly changed b/w 19 and 24 ?

14:13

phf nah, this is a dumb approach. nevermind "what version", first and foremost, "what do we want here"

14:13

asciilifeform i don't even care so much about that, because of the well ilustrated, here and everywhere else, history of idiots involvement.

14:13

nobody involved with lisp coding, starting with rms, and onwards, had a functioning noggin.

14:14

it's all piles upon piles of hacks by "please, god, mom, someone, send someone who knows what shit is to beat me up for all this." kiddos crying for dad.

14:14

mircea_popescu: see if i think that version secretly reveals how how many of the comforts of "modern" emacs we want to sacrifice, and likewise nails down the wants

14:15

im not sure why you'd think that ; but not the end of the world.

14:15

19 is '98 technology, missing unicode, definitely missing ssl, i'm not sure how much networking code is there, etc. etc.

14:15

is the networking code elisp or slime ?

14:15

^koan.

14:16

networking code C/elisp, that's required to use e.g. slime

14:16

i have great faith you see what i mean.

14:16

ah

14:17

because on the strength of "networking code C/elisp, that's required to use e.g. slime" how about you lot unearth the old borland c ide and use that and be happy.

14:20

well, that's what's in everyone's workshop, piles and piles of hacks

14:21

myeah. and maybe the discussion is both a little premature and a little touching raw nerve ; but nevertheless the progress on packaging, first ave1 with musl, coming up trinque cuntoo, etc etc WILL lead to it.

14:21

so better start early than late.

14:23

moreover, and this is the very heart and soul of this here republic, one who discusses his problems acquires the two magical things : solutions ; and supporters. whereas one who toils in unknown "privacy" produces mcclims and such sad things.

~ 23 minutes ~

14:46

phf: i dun think anybody will cry if we lose ssl. uniturds is tricker matter, e.g. asciilifeform routinely edits proggies with uniturds in'em , in ru, cn, etc, and they gotta at least display ( i'd be ok to swear off ~input~ of uniturds ) . socket of some form is prolly a must, to have either slime or anything like a replacement for it

14:47

asciilifeform except for the part where i keep putting uniturds in all the time, persian, chinese, whatever.

14:48

( tho i can picture a hypothetical commonlisp-emacs that doesn't ever need to socket , because has compiler inside, like ye olde borland )

14:48

mircea_popescu: you dun do it in emacs, tho, afaik ?

14:48

but if it can't do everything then why have it.

14:49

asciilifeform was going through gedankenexperiment, 'what can be jettisoned'

14:49

if it dun cost much i'd surely like to retain orc glyphs.

14:50

the honest truth of the matter is that we don't even know what we want yet

14:50

out of curiosity, do we currently have folx who irc via emacs ? ( ben_vulpes ? )

14:50

mircea_popescu: aha, hence thread

14:50

which is dubious base to start pouring concrete upon

14:50

but this yes, exposes a major question that may help. is emacs "ide" ? or is emacs "wm" ?

14:51

ie, is it fine to say "you wanna chat, use gossipd ; you wanna program, use emacs" ?

14:51

at least 1 fella ( trinque ? ) actually uses it in place of wm

14:51

*

asciilifeform doesn't, because does not particularly like the 'emacs hosed, all machine may as well reset' dynamic

14:52

i can definitely see that.

14:52

and moreover, if that's ok, why not dos. seriously.

14:52

!#s ratpoison

14:52

58 results for "ratpoison", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ratpoison

14:52

^ asciilifeform's preferred wm, since early 2000s

14:52

asciilifeform: i also use it as wm; will endure the occasional freeze-ups because if emacs has died well then the whole machine's utility to me has gone to epsilon anyways

14:52

not irc, however.

14:52

*

mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"

14:52

possible I'd be entirely comfortable most days in a DOS + emacs, provided the term was big enough

14:53

trinque: believe or not, at one time i had a patched msdos to do 120 column txtmode

14:53

*

trinque believes

14:53

i've used emacs under dos for almost a year..

14:53

*

asciilifeform tried last yr, on a purpose-made box, to replicate it, and failed, lost the ancient art

14:54

how do you lose ancient arts.

14:54

emacs, in dos flavor and in general, has a support for transliteration in both input and output, so you can even edit orc language with some minor discomfort

14:55

^

14:55

phf: now i'm curious, what you build on that dos ( i.e. do you have gnat for dos built ?! major asciilifeform-wishlist item )

14:58

mircea_popescu: same way errybody loses ancient arts. by overwriting the parchments and wax tablets, by neglect, by 'surely won't need this again', lol

14:58

for shame.

14:58

verily

14:58

asciilifeform: back then i had slightly different concerns, nor did i build anything that wasn't already built. the whole thing compiles with djgpp, clisp is also available. bulk of the code i wrote was either common lisp by way of clisp or allegro "games" and visual hacks and such

14:59

so to beat this horse : is multitasking a desired feature, actually ?

14:59

*

asciilifeform brb,teatime

15:11

mircea_popescu: do you mean should the editor perform all kinds of functions in parallel?

15:11

phf trying to whittle down the "ide" vs "wm" dispute. multithreading is a major point here.

15:22

mircea_popescu: on account of 40 yrs of os braindamage, folx often confuse what they want , in that they think they want multithread, but really want nonblockage

15:22

right.

15:23

( e.g. for an infinite loop in sbcl, to not hose emacs )

15:23

but the dos discussion, as well as the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827171 should set this on sane footing.

15:23

Logged on 2018-06-19 18:52 mircea_popescu can definitely see the "i do not expect my terminal to do background tasks, that's what the servers are for. i don't have separable pairs of eyes"

15:26

asciilifeform i suspect it might be more than "an infinite loop in sbcl, to not hose emacs" ; for instance, it might include & behaviour.

15:26

"does emacs need & ?"

15:26

eg, bash without screen is ~useless.

15:27

there's two parallel discussions though, the technical should there be support for preemptive execution in whatever substrate (elisp virtual machine, linux, etc.) and the ux should the system give you ability to maintain multiple contexts

15:27

true.

15:27

meanwhile, in ballerinas for old men, https://78.media.tumblr.com/52a0cb16281b4564794608c85a2dced0/tumblr_npk9gyWPeE1taa3g3o1_500.gif

15:28

irc works in emacs without multithreading, while emacs window manager relies on linux level preemptive execution

15:29

but the first one is about explicitly maintaining multiple contexts, the other one is a technical detail (at the end of the day who cares that emacs is the one doing the management?)

15:29

people who expect to run it atop musl as opposed to atop gnarl, that's very much who.

15:30

consider the slime/elisp/c discussion again. how much of an os is this emacs going to be ?

15:30

as far as i can tell, we've not yet said "emacs is really not the name we give the tmsr-os"

15:31

there's good reason to equate os and code editor, incidentally. as the ~fundamental~ job of an operating system is to transform machine failures into debug sessions.

15:31

thatr's why they even exist ever at all.

15:34

http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/19/updates-on-the-renting-adventure/ << Bingo Blog - Updates On The Renting Adventure

15:35

to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?"

15:42

there are layers and layers of cruft, some things that we haven't mentioned but that's implicitly part of the conversation. should there be x11, should emacs be the first thing that linux boots and nothing else, etc.

15:42

i would very much support a lot of emacs effort if it gets one rid of having to ~also~ support x11 ; and vice-versa. for instance.

15:43

but -- yes.

15:45

no x11 means no graphical wwwtron, right?

15:45

ben_vulpes not at all.

15:45

leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).

15:46

you need these two piles of idiocy separate like you need a penis for peeing and another penis for also peeing.

15:46

ahaha

15:46

which is why the idiots make feeble efforts to reunite them, as recently lulzed at wrt unity, a few days ago

15:46

of course, proceeding blindly and randomly from the wrong edge etc. but the problem is obvious enough even cumshots on cumshothub notice it.

15:47

if emacs is the wm, then it'd better a) rid me of browser and b) be capable of previewing for me the graph / naked slut / we i'm about to put on trilema, both BEFORE uploading and as part of the final page preview.

15:47

and so on.

15:50

anyone ever tried to turn a csv into a png ? something like say http://trilema.com/2015/eulora-as-seen-by-mircescu/ ; very practical need driven item. it's a fucking travesty!

15:50

eww, the builtin browser is sorta step-up from lynx/links: no js, but can do images/svgs with the appropriate libs linked against

15:51

ben_vulpes so then, if no builtin browser, why have emacs as wm at all.

15:51

understand, i'm not proposing the one tru way here. but i do want to know why the cuts are made, if made. because otherwise wtf.

15:52

best definition of what a cult is, incidentally. "why was this cut there specifically ?" "i dunno." that's it, that's a cult. can't answer as to why was something cut where it was.

15:54

implementing the DOM and all of the california complexity doesn't mesh neatly with the text rendering already extant. i use emacs as wm around browser and some other things (not many other things, really, but 'modern' dom-o-tron is sadly yet central to $work), for the expediency of my workbench having a single scriptinglang to move windows around, split whole monitor and arrange for specific workflows...

15:55

so you propose we keep a dom and an ast ?

16:00

i'm amenable to dom as presentation model, but abhor the browser scripting language and the cpp hydras that render the html/css/jsoup. that said if we cut "teh modern webb!" off entirely, i'll hafta bifurcate my workbench.

16:02

why not just get rid of cpp css/js processors ; have proper execution model for javascript.

16:03

do you have any idea what a ~proper~ model for javascript would be worth in productivity terms ?

16:03

*

mircea_popescu has seen the "debug" "expert" modes on every browser, holy shit...

16:06

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/aQ0op/?raw=true << look at this thing, for the record. just look at it.

16:06

worth more to inca than us i suspect.

16:06

this is production, workhorse website.

16:06

/************* DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE ! **************/

16:07

ben_vulpes inca can't use proper tools.

16:09

"state": "off" << wahahaha

16:10

one can literally spend hours laughing with it.

16:10

DM.molFeComponents.setConfig('molFeSmartBanner', {"android":{"averageUserRating":4.5,"formattedPrice":"FREE - In Google Play","trackCensoredName":"Daily Mail Online","storeUrl":"https://play.google.com/store/a

16:10

censored name ?!

16:11

i don't really see the point to importing rounded corners into republican tooling

16:11

it's 20k loc!

16:11

ben_vulpes so then we don't.

16:14

but there;s a difference between graphical = "rounded corners" (in the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-10#1821998 sense of that term, "One of the motivations for the changes is to enable animations and transitions. If you use gtk_style_context_save/restore in your draw() function, that prevents GTK+ from keeping the state that is needed to support animations; so you should avoid it when you can.") and graphical = "mp would lik

16:14

Logged on 2018-06-10 05:00 mircea_popescu: https://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2016/04/29/yet-another-gtk-update/ for the entomologist ; one luzy moment in the endless stream of idiocy that is 3rd millenium foss.

16:14

e to be able to not have to plot "< awk -F, '/Bitterbean/ {print $3,$5}' testall.csv" using 1:2 t "Better Bitterbean" w p pt 1, \"

16:14

is it ~so wrong~ to want to have either literal or graphical display for a csv, as an option ?

16:15

maybe i really don't want to look at it as a succession of numbers. why, because i'm such a troglodyte ?

16:15

re disposing of x11 -- it is possibly even bigger can of worms than 'replace emacs', given e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-17#1671395

16:15

Logged on 2017-06-17 04:57 asciilifeform: well, on classical x11 i have, e.g., machine that runs, say, 20 gui proggies, and each one 1) is on an entirely different machine, somewhere else, some of them not even on same continent 2) behaves EXACTLY as if it were running locally, window reshapes, etc 3) none have any shared state with the others, each sees local disk only of own local machine etc

16:17

the tunneling behaviour of x11 makes it practical to use a box with no video card, no kbd, etc. as a full-bore workstation ( and this was used as early as the bolix lispm )

16:19

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827214 << this is merely tip of iceberg, dun forget the multiple impedance-mismatched memory allocators, gc, etc

16:19

Logged on 2018-06-19 19:45 mircea_popescu: leaving this briefly aside, consider the idiocy of "traditional" linux stack. there's a... wm, running x11 ; and in it you load a ... browser... which does it's own windows management (now called tabs).

16:19

( asciilifeform has nearly a whole www devoted to subj... )

16:23

re x11, see also thread http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631304

16:23

Logged on 2017-03-23 00:11 asciilifeform: i always thought this was one of the spiffiest things re the smbx boxes

16:28

16:28

http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-26#1034767 << and yet earlier x11 thread.

16:28

Logged on 2015-02-26 21:07 asciilifeform: mats: for one thing, it it can't be piped over ip, it isn't a substitute for x

16:28

ben_vulpes: mega-surprise ? winblows does same

16:29

ben_vulpes: 'encrypted drives' in software, is ~homeopathy

16:29

'professional secret known by many forensics experts' lol!!

16:31

also other more lulzy luls: https://www.neowin.net/news/bittorrent-has-been-sold-to-blockchain-startup-for-an-alleged-140-million

16:32

'BitTorrent, one of the most recognisable brands in the world' << what's next, http is also 'brand' ?

16:33

( as for the orig idjit trying to leverage 'his brand', d00d's been at it for quite some time, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-03#1732650 )

16:33

Logged on 2017-11-03 18:16 asciilifeform: 'Bram Cohen, famously invented BitTorrent' 'proofs of space and time' [many squigglies] 'decentralized, and more secure' 'Install and setup Keybase' etc.

16:35

i fully expect that linus will eventually sell 'his brand' so craig wright or whoever can make an Official 'linuxcoin' or whatever garbage.

16:35

!#s linux foundation

16:35

39 results for "linux foundation", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=linux%20foundation

16:35

^ in effect he already has, long ago

16:38

asciilifeform nevertheless, consider : when the ~only~ possible use of x11 comes to fore, which is to say, playing a video game, all EVERYONE can think of is "how do i makew this a texrt client"

16:38

you've already stopped using x11. that you don't admit this, well, different story. but in point of fact, x11 is already off by default.

16:38

dunno about other folx, but i use it -- in the sense described in linked threads -- ~all day, erryday.

16:39

and it doesn't stop there ; are you aware "modern browser" won't even allow luser to set referrer string ? it's either "nothing at all" or else "Speak the truth". why ? so that fetlife can imp[lement faux security a la "oh, your referrer is incorrect, best relogin".

16:39

e.g. graphical emacses, complete with frames, arbitrary windowshape, and orcograms, running on other end of planet and displaying in arbitrarily-shaped windows on my console.

16:39

some of them grudgingly still allow individual cookie inspection -- but NOT EDITING COOKIES

16:39

and moreover, why shouldn'\t i be able to see the dom tree and permit/disallow certain branches from running ?

16:40

("oh, mp, people would turn adds of if we did that" "duh").

16:40

mircea_popescu: what, 'greasemonkey' no longer worx on 'modern browser' ?

16:40

i ~should~ be able to enforce memory limits per branch, not fucking "nobody knows why firefox runs out of memory, but it has been leaking for 10 years straight now"

16:40

what is this, the usg budget ?

16:40

and what's to stop you from diddling the strings in a http proxy. ( prolly easier, really, than making a 'greasemonkey' kludge for erry possible www browser )

16:40

asciilifeform point being, everyone uses curl, while pretending to have firefox. everyone uses terminal, while pretending to have x11.

16:40

this pretense is just as good present as absent, you know ?

16:41

dunno, i have graphical e.g. logic analyzer, happily purring along via x11 pipes.

16:41

THIS is what i fucking mean re views. if i wanna see my data as a graph it'd be useful if it were right there in the editor, and if i wanna see websites it'd better also.

16:41

otherwise... what ? STRICTLY only way to tell "do not load foreign pages" to "modern" browser is to turn off the dns port.

16:42

who's gonna rewrite this into sanity ? and why, so as to save the mozillatards ? break all the cr50s they scattered everywhere to save them ?

16:42

fuck 'em.

16:42

asciilifeform point is, if i am using emacs wm, WHY should i kludge everything. and if kludge is the way of the land, why do we give a shit about emacs.

16:42

and so on.

16:43

iirc there is a wwwtron , of a kind, built into emacs; it is in roughly the same condition as climacs.

16:43

but... yes, all these are tips of icebergs.

16:43

www tools are in a sorry state, the choice is roughly 1) lynx 2) ipadism

16:44

my choices work as lynx/curl.

16:44

because in all honestly, i wouldn't even ~deign~ rto look upon the shit that's dailymail other than through n layers of awk. i don't CARE whjat they think they're saying asnymore than i care what the fetwhores think they're saying.

16:45

the heathens know this, and so they specifically put mega-effort into making 'get the text out via awk-like' as painful as possible.

16:45

same thrust as the fritz/cr50/etc nonsense.

16:45

quite.

16:46

( observe that lynx/curl ~effortlessly display tmsr www items )

16:46

phuctor in particular was optimized for curl | awk | ... etc

16:47

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827208 << >> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=267 ( and, sadly, afaik the only successful demonstration of this behaviour, was bolix )

16:47

Logged on 2018-06-19 19:35 mircea_popescu: to put it more stringently, "if your machine dumping core doesn't produce an emacs session, why aren't you using dos again ?"

16:48

so to sum up this -- i have no dispute that everyone uses shards, bits and pieces hammered off named items, and pretends they're using the named items, "i use x11 in this so and so sense" "i use browser all day -- except not in any sense browser, of course" and so on.

16:48

this truth'd better be faced sooner than later. your x11 is x11 by abuse of terminology and naught else.

16:48

same thing as in the earlier emacs thread

16:49

exactly.

16:49

( nobody, afaik, anywhere, uses the factory config )

16:49

which is why it's all coming out of the tube here.

16:49

but in any case, the reasoning "a. i have here toe of mummified saint justinian ; b. saint justinian once saved people from drowning ; ergo c. drowning is solved problem in my case" is batshit.

16:50

everyone does it every day because the psychological pain of the laternative is just too great. but, great or small -- you're all fucking drowning.

16:50

it's moar of a shipwreck, errybody has a rotten plank or two keeping'em afloat.

16:50

for some definitions of afloat.

16:50

i still gota plot < if i wanna see the graph of a csv. that's floating in lalaland.

16:51

the current alternative, tho, is not a luxury liner appearing out of nowhere from the sky, but simply no plank, and watery grave.

16:51

luxury liner!

16:52

it's not "oh, errybody has a rotten plank or two keeping'em afloat." it's "oh, everybody ~can manifest matter by will~, currently everybody hanging off the bare minimum rotten plank and they're not even COMPARED".

16:52

this is also insanity.

16:53

i will download a luxury liner.

16:53

who wouldn't

16:54

( 'you wouldn't download mercedes!' -- idjit usg copyrasty poster ; 'i would if i could, motherfuckers' ( answer ) )

16:58

well so there we go.

16:58

re 'manifest matter at will' : in early 2000s asciilifeform grasped the mega-problem , that programming ain't actually hard, except for stripping away the monkey shit produced by 50 yrs of monkey. 'i want a sane emacs' turned into 'sane prog lang' and quickly 'sane os' then 'sane iron' , and afaik this actually the inevitable correct cut, rather than caprice

16:58

mens sana in corpore sano (tm)(r)

16:59

when i was 16, my informatics teacher in the informatics lab told the kids upset at being stuck with the 286s (there were like half a dozen 386s too) that "if you ever get to where you mastered THAT cpu, you'll be way ahead of anything they teach in college anyway".

16:59

there is some merit to first outgrowing the hardware.

17:00

errybody outgrew the von neumann box as soon as they started trying for http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1827189

17:00

Logged on 2018-06-19 19:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of 40 yrs of os braindamage, folx often confuse what they want , in that they think they want multithread, but really want nonblockage

17:00

von neumann machine offers no sane means of asynchrony. ( hence idjit kludges like dma, little cpus in erry kbd/mouse/nic etc )

17:00

sure ; but still plenty of dragons to be killed on this island, before taking airship.

17:01

which fucking hell makes me itch for a knight's bounty session

17:01

lol

17:01

on 'c machine', with overflows , runaway pointerolade, etc being inescapable facts of life, 'dragon' comes from the very earth.

17:02

tell you what, get me a box whose only remaining problem is that well... hardware sucks.

17:02

very easy, just format yer disk, lol

17:03

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1822450 <

17:03

Logged on 2018-06-11 16:18 asciilifeform: one of these was 'reactor control' , with realistic constants, you had to ramp up reactor, control the rods and the sodium pump etc, object was to get max power but avoid meltdown

17:03

also not such a great machine.

17:03

could just as easily say that e.g. leibniz's calculator 'not so great machine'

17:03

subj was built by people who had to hand-draw erry transistor.

17:04

aha.

17:04

the i/o device consisted of, what, 40 buttons and a 7-digit vacuum flask display.

17:05

mircea_popescu: believe or not, mk61 was a troo breakthrough, a computer (of sorts) that could be actually mass-produced in orcistan. buncha folx did their physics dissertation models on the thing, even

17:05

i do not dispute that part.

17:05

in discussion is the "can't do anything, pentium sucks"

17:05

contention isn't 'can't do anyffing'

17:05

asciilifeform even nao still, believe, trying to accomplish something on it

17:06

word.

17:06

contention is that the pestilences emerge from the fabric of the machine, rather than merely herd of dummkopf programmertards

17:06

the fabric makes trooly sane design of os, editor, i/o, ~impossible

17:07

this is not directly evident to me. it is impossible to use the killer micro as a timeshare machine, yes.

17:07

17:07

ada, for instance, is a very, very heavy kludge around the c overflows/pointerola iron.

17:10

mircea_popescu: perversely-counterposed, http://pbfcomics.com/comics/small-man/

17:10

ahaha

17:16

meanwhile over at google farms, https://78.media.tumblr.com/f67869ee37da246342e526d2af15174c/tumblr_o0mdo3C0P41rjh49oo1_1280.jpg

17:16

mircea_popescu: very tellingly, there were afaik 0 great gamez made for mk-85 , despite the latter featuring a pdp11-compat chipset ( in, forfuckssake, a pocket calc!! runinng on , what, 20 milliamp ) and rom basic

17:16

abundance -- brings waste

17:17

( granted at the point of mk85 , troo micros were already beginning to spread, and the set of folx willing to play games with grid paper, began to thin )

17:19

it's the exact sort of problem discussed re "scientific paradigms". dazzling array of alternatives results in manifestly inept behaviours.

17:19

imho there's something to the hypothesis that the almost absurd minimality of the earlier boxen, encouraged careful thought and experimentation

17:19

picture, game in 104 byte, and with 7 numeric digs as sole output.

17:20

folx would write, on paper, what was initially an impossible-to-run 300-500 bytes, then work, whittle.

17:20

the golden age of the z80 games was principally driven by the fact that an intellectual unit (at the time, one guy + one gal) could churn out a game per season. most of the great "studios" of the time were this, coupla married math teachers.

17:21

z80 was an unfathomable luxury, from the pov of the calculator folx

17:21

this generally is the thing, "what a man and woman can do in their bedroom instead of another pregnancy"

17:21

hah

17:25

ftr, prolly the most enjoyable programming asciilifeform ever did as adult, was on a device called 'pic16', a microcontroller with 68 addressable byte ( and 1k of program rom, it was a 'harvard arch' )

17:25

https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC16F84A << vendor site ( apparently it's still in print )

17:28

there is apparently still a subculture around that thing

17:29

with moar, and better-polished routines published for maths, i/o, whatever, than for just about any pc thing

17:42

you know we also had these ?

17:42

the "arm" of the 80s.

~ 37 minutes ~

18:20

mircea_popescu: do you happen to recall exactly what you had ?

18:20

cuz in ye olde su the closest thing , afaik, were straight clones of i8051 , with eprom , i.e. the glass windows

~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~

19:23

asciilifeform eg http://www.bobtech.ro/proiecte/microcontrolere/2-bobprog-programator-icsp-pentru-microcontrolere-pic

19:24

item is 2004, and thoroughly infested with ms-isms. sadly earlier items not really online

19:38

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826916 << I try to do everything I can in emacs, it being the "retarded cousin" lisp machine emulator for C machines. even used exwm for a while.

19:38

Logged on 2018-06-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: what's actually the usercount ? spyked ? esthlos ? ave1 ? jurov ?

19:39

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826971 << this is what i've adopted

19:39

Logged on 2018-06-19 17:31 asciilifeform: in so far asciilifeform is concerned, the 'universal' workstation is emacs-in-ratpoison.

19:39

esthlos yeah, by now there's a very large userbase for emacs established.

19:39

h'ok

19:49

mircea_popescu: aaaa you meant the ~actual~ taiwanese pic16, not orcistani micros

19:49

mircea_popescu: ( and lulzily i had the very same serialport programmator described in your link )

19:50

the 1980s variant was '16c84', exactly same device aside from the glass window / uv eprom

19:50

well yes, i thought it's what we were disucssing.

19:50

there were also the "window" eeprom things, yes, but not really the same thing.

19:50

( asciilifeform , incidentally, is eternally on the lookout for anybody selling crates of eprom-window microcontrollers, they are gold standard for auditable/non-surreptitiously-rewritable iron )

19:52

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-11#1823173 << ru windows eprom. asciilifeform owns a qty, for fyootoor

19:52

Logged on 2018-06-11 21:14 asciilifeform: let's take an example of trustworthy iron : K573RF4 ( https://eandc.ru/pdf/mikroskhema/k573rf4.pdf )

19:52

*windowed

19:53

mircea_popescu: aa makes sense. i assumed you were speaking of clones -- orig. 16f never made it as far east as my orcistan

19:53

ro was getting all sorta decadent bourgeois items by the late 80s.

19:54

but tbh i suspect bulk of them were after 1990.

19:54

btw i still haven't tracked down a ro-made z80, most of my collection is from ddr

19:54

( and zelenograd etc )

19:55

lol

19:56

( for some conceivable applications, z80 remains more than adequate, and will remain so 50y from nao -- e.g. otp crypto, lamport, potentially -- btc walleting, etc )

19:57

aside from rom/ram all it needs is a uart , of which there is also a good '80 supply .

19:58

asciilifeform pretty sure baneasa made them ; but stopped ccaq 1988 and i doubt any crates survive untouched

19:58

http://www.vaxman.de/projects/Z80_mini/overall.jpg << example minimal z80 made by current-day fanatic

19:59

mircea_popescu: you'd be surprised at what survived untouched in some dusty shithole

20:01

ideal cryptotron would have simply empty socket, bring yer own z80, specificityofdiddling, hah.

20:01

http://dl.wavetrex.eu/oldcomp/DSC_8811.JPG << lotta eg st micro chips used (the board etc are genuinely made in ro, but imported soviet capacitors etc)

20:01

sov mil-grade caps are still prized ( tantalum-niobium , go and buy these in usa for any price )

20:01

http://dl.wavetrex.eu/oldcomp/DSC_8813.JPG << that beta is the iprs baneasa mark.

20:02

asciilifeform ayup.

20:02

so anyway, if you find a z80 with that beta on it, you got a genuine ro made item.

20:02

mircea_popescu: this item is similar to the last gasp of su comp makers, the iskra 286 , 100% orc except for the intel chip ( last su-indigenous clone was afaik 8086 )

20:03

aha.

20:04

in that last pic, the gluelogic loox to be a mix of su and ro

20:04

( K-*** is su designator system )

20:04

i expect.

20:04

i toldja, soviet capacitors :D

20:04

'glue' being the 74xxx discretolade

20:04

ah, the chip. yea

20:04

seems like ro kept the amer inscriptions

20:05

( su had this peculiar renaming tradition )

20:05

i always suspected su never got enough foreign made to end up with the conventions.

20:05

aha

20:06

su mil-grade logic tends to look like http://skupkadetaley.ru/data/image/catalog/k573rf4.jpg << ceramic, gold, direct copy of usa mil/orbit grade

20:06

these will prolly last for 500yr of powerup, if left alone

20:06

for srs. looking great.

20:06

pictured is 64kbit (8kB) eprom.

20:07

*

asciilifeform has a stash.

20:07

http://www.cpushack.com/EPROM.html << for aficionado/archaeologist strictly.

20:07

^ good photopr0n

20:08

they tend to evaporate from market quickly, gold recyclers hunt'em down.

20:08

there's often half a gram of au in these.

20:10

some time last yr , asciilifeform , for lulz, stuffed a few units from stash into reader, read. they contained apparently valid z80olade. and, when erased and written to, hold the contents 100% ok

20:11

notbad, for circa-84 or so device.

20:12

indeed

20:12

su-made mil-logic also is pretty tolerant of overvoltage, thermal abuse, etc.

20:13

who knows, possibly will survive sunspotocalypse etc.

20:14

revisiting emacs: the problem for me, and the reason i quit it after ~1 year is that the cut between editor / os / keyboard was so obviously wrong. once you get comfortable with the useful stuff in there it sucks that you then can *only* use it in emacs. what, i can't have a decent editor for anything outside of emacs? most of the answers to that question are either a) fuck emacs or b) fuck everything outside of

20:14

emacs. which to me explains org mode and emails and browser in emacs, and i suppose the emacs+ratpoison. but in any case a lot of that useful shit dun belong stuck inside an editor

20:15

Mocky: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826943

20:15

Logged on 2018-06-19 17:21 asciilifeform: in heathendom it is always either 'eh gnarly pos who needed it ever' or 'hands off my sacred animal, i'll shoot'

20:15

Mocky like what, a browser ?

20:15

intensely polarizing item

20:16

like running any named command with M-x, why can't i do that in my browser, or cad program or whaterver

20:16

dun belong strictly in text editor only

20:16

myeah.

20:16

Mocky: because your cad, browser, etc were written by monkeys, evidently

20:17

emacs lives on because it is a kind of oasis

20:17

( granted, oasis where the giraffes , hippos, shit in the water, but nevertheless surrounded by sand as far as eye can see and quite appealing to the initiated )

20:17

but as you say asciilifeform, problem is deeper than that

20:18

Mocky: fwiw everything inside emacs is a side effect of essentially confining the lisp machine vm to the emacs process. on lisp machines proper the process was inside out: stick emacs everywhere you needed a text editor, but otherwise have separate programs.

20:18

situation quite reminiscent of bitcoin immediately prior to trb

20:18

recall, when nobody of any consequence was using anyffing but own private fork of 0.5 or whichever

20:19

somewhat on topic, as someone still reading logz: is eventual plan tmsr dataflow lispm revival? heathen iron has to be abandoned, no?

20:20

esthlos: current-day tmsr mostly runs on vintage iron.

20:20

prolly will for foreseeable future.

20:20

from that perspective climacs is a better approach: common lisp as a vm, mcclim as an application authoring framework, climacs as an editor widget

20:20

ergo the keeping of linux, emacs, etc on life support.

20:21

esthlos baking hardware is a ways off.

20:21

esthlos: the one piece of iron which was catastrophically absent was rng, and this was fixed

20:26

esthlos: there were several old threads where the subject of 'what's it cost to bake cpu' is reviewed.

20:27

!#s from:asciilifeform fab

20:27

126 results for "from:asciilifeform fab", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20%20fab

20:28

asciilifeform: I've heard stories from someone who works the floor of an Intel plant in Oregon. seems like a very costly operation for those low-nm processors

20:28

especially in oregon.

20:28

esthlos: the saving grace is that, outside of several very particular 'arms race' applications (e.g. miner) there is no actual reason to build the low-nm stuff

20:29

oh yes. they just got the freedom (!!!) to pump their own gas

20:29

*

esthlos had the displeasure to go to school in portland

20:29

if you can build equiv of, say, dec vax ( as su , in its last yrs of life, did ) you have something like fab-sovereignty.

20:30

asciilifeform: that's what I suspected. most of those transistors wasted by modern kernel anyway

20:31

virtually all.

20:32

esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455187 << e.g. fab thread.

20:32

Logged on 2016-04-22 02:06 asciilifeform: costs of chip fab as we know it, and of orbital launch, are even comparable.

20:32

thanks!

20:34

esthlos: noshit? which school?

20:34

reed. still have some friends out there

20:34

esthlos: i recommend to read whole set of search output earlier, as part of your log eating , there was even an instance where asciilifeform went and got actual quotes from small fab houses

20:35

esthlos: ah, once a classy joint i hear. since then, well, epicenter of "i don't date nazis" nonsense

20:36

(noshit, you've never seen one)

20:36

anyone besides beta loser "date" anyway ?!

20:36

esthlos: one of the yet-uncured ills is that you cannot actually pay to have a 1980s cpu made, at the current houses, all they offer is 'download this winblowz crapola and use our 60nm standard cells and oh here sign nda for whole thing'

20:37

mircea_popescu: it's all the poor dears know

20:37

there's a fab in usa where, believe or not, they still make 2um classics like cdp1802 for usg. but they dun take walkins.

20:38

ben_vulpes: all that needs saying: http://www.reed.edu/reed_magazine/sallyportal/posts/2016/sanctuary-college.html

20:38

ben_vulpes i dunno about that, man. from the slut's angle, there's a lot of plain fucking going about.

20:39

*

mircea_popescu 's only eyes on us campuses are female, may impose rosy glow.

20:39

tho they do have some stuff going for them. nuclear reactor, excellent math and sciences. but yes, intolerable student body

20:39

mircea_popescu: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/shocked/ << oblig

20:40

lol

20:40

mircea_popescu: i doubt there's what knows how to use a slut on that campus

20:40

no forks huh.

20:41

come to think about it... i don't know of a single case of girl laying a... student.

20:41

well hey i biked through from time to time

20:41

once upon a time.

20:41

jesus christ, imagine this wonder, two decades of "political corecntess" and "stop rape" and "yes means notanal" and whatever the fuck "empathy" and "really really understanding girls" and whatnot has reduced success rate to 0%

20:41

and in the spirit of their imbecility, they think this failure justifies... MORE OF THE CAUSE OF IT

20:42

i hadn't even realised this before.

20:42

well yeah doods don't even say hello, much less issue compliments anymore.

20:43

asciilifeform: my understanding is that most unis used to have chip fab facilities much like machining facilities, and profs would regularly build iron. did something make the cost skyrocket? (maybe in logz: I will read)

20:43

and so the girlies shack up with other girlies, the boys retire to secular onasteries, and they all think it precisely tits.

20:43

esthlos: they only ever built it in the '1 chip at a time with slave labour and oh most of'em dun actually work' sense.

20:43

i like the arrangement.

20:44

esthlos: i visited my local one, it is of that type.

20:45

asciilifeform: bah, sad.

20:50

esthlos: that was never the case (though it certainly looked that way didn't it), the golden age of vlsi happened because of a darpa grant, essentially "give us your designs, we'll fab it for you free of charge"

21:00

phf: you know, about a year ago I wrote Alan Kay asking wtf happened to computing since the days of darpa and xerox parc. his response was "funding now sux"

21:02

o course, don't think he's done anything of merit since those days.

21:03

has anyone?

21:03

because they permitted all sorts of patibulaires take over the show. with retards like marc shitdressen and paul graham handling the funding, usg tech went to shit.

21:03

even alan kay is liek, this aint what object orient programming was meant to be

21:03

i can;t fucking believe english doesn't have an equivalent for "hangman's face"

21:05

alan kay's fixation on children though always confused me, and i think was the undoing of most of his children. like his definition of what children want or like is that of a person profoundly out of touch.

21:05

*most of his project

21:05

like most academics really

21:06

i missed this definition ?

21:06

which?

21:07

like his definition of what children want or like <\

21:07

his model is mostly based on papert, piaget, and montessori. "The Children's Machine" etc

21:08

o brother.

21:08

we definitely had the alan kay thread

21:08

mircea_popescu: i don't know if there's a definition, "idea" would've been a better term. in any case i've never heard anything concrete, except for the papert/piaget/montessori like esthlos said statements.

21:09

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753348

21:09

Logged on 2017-12-18 03:52 mircea_popescu: did we ever do http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay/240003442?pgno=1 btw ?

21:09

but his goal with smalltalk etc. wasn't to build a machine for grownups, it was supposed to be a montessori creative exploration device

21:10

helpful pbf illustration, http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T792V0_uoCw/R6T6hAIArPI/AAAAAAAAAWk/8zJzYpskpNA/s1600-h/PBF244-Preach_Skate.jpg

21:10

phf amusingly, this is a ~type~, like the 90s academic in the pepit jacket with the square bag slung over shoulder.

21:10

i knew plenty of such idiots.

21:11

"oh, the children" hurr durr, always boils down to a sort of listless, old pedophile's excitement.

21:11

"THE CONCEPTS!!!!"

21:11

"if only children floated in a soup of abstraction there'd be no world hunger" sorta wikiwank.

21:11

phf: I think he wanted to build something for adults, but his work at apple disillusioned him, american adults too retarded for multiple desktops etc. so then yeah, pedo phase

21:11

they are all inspired by dead poets society, "oh captain my captain" and all that stuff

21:12

quite possibly all choked on something they read

21:12

oh man dr dobbs, haven't seen that in ages. I used to get the dead tree version

21:12

at one time, in '70s, there was this crackpottery, 'programming will be like literacy, EVERYONE!11 will know it'. turns out -- troo! with the tidbit that it is ~exactly~ like actual literacy, and scarcely exists, and not 1 in 500 is physiologically capable of it

21:12

but the shocking part is, they have no formal diffusion, they're all individual/solitary and yet very uniformly minded.

21:14

often they band together and try to opress young republicans with "programs for exclelence" batshit insane nonsense along the veins of "this kid learned to read at 3 months old!"

21:14

they're usually very excited about "brain percentages" and usually mozart figures in the verbiage.

21:14

esthlos: i don't think that's the case, squeak was his main apple project, but even going before than dynabook was already in the works at parc

21:15

phf: oh yes, the dynabook, you're right

21:15

https://www.mprove.de/diplom/gui/Kay72a.pdf

21:15

phf: picture if it had been buildable then. then alankay could be sad and go to the bottle 40 yrs earlier, because 'this is not what i wanted, ended up ipad'

21:16

believe or not, this was a nearly exact replay of almost identical nonsense surrounding introduction of tv

21:16

neal stephenson gave a pretty lulzy rendition of the dynabook in the diamond age. poor kid gets ahold of the republican technology, goes on to rule the world

21:16

'it will be greatest education device!' 'people can watch great theatre!'

21:17

esthlos ruling the world is not a solitary endeavour.

21:17

esthlos: fwiw i read it, pretty lulzy 'magic sword' trope.

21:18

*

esthlos doesn't know the first thing about ruling

21:18

the old gigas ring stories better.

21:18

"if i had a ring whereby i'd fuck women by myself..."

21:19

the old midas touch story, better still.

21:19

the view that ambient human brain damage level is strictly curable by 'education'

21:19

"you already have it. touch your thumb to your index"

21:19

lol

21:21

btw asciilifeform: saw you're a fan of greg egan. ever read permutation city?

21:21

http://letstalkstory.com/readme/The%20Diamond%20Age.pdf >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8IcZb/?raw=true << 313337 w4r3z

21:21

esthlos: sure

21:21

esthlos: iirc it was among his last readable items

21:21

after he switched to oddball 'posthumans' became snoar

21:22

kind of a weird book imo, permutation city

21:22

esthlos Mocky either of you ever read the luminous rewrite ?

21:22

the rewrite but not the original!

21:23

lol ok.

21:23

i've accidentally read greg egan's quarantine, followed by schild's ladder, i take it once you read one of his novels you've read all of them, unless i choose a particularly similar narratives

21:24

any thoughts on the "consciousness jumping noncontinuously from electron to electron" speil? in the sense that, it seems dumb, but kinda sexy too

21:26

mircea_popescu: I have not. gotta add it to the list

21:26

spiel.

21:28

esthlos i dunno what it means tho. how do you mean, consciousness jumping ?

21:32

i think it's like transhumanist porn, the idea that consciousness will preserve its form on whatever substrate, so with some Quantum Physics we can have "humans" operating at subatomic levels by being there.

21:33

if you could upload your consiousness to a pc, would you notice when when your process got swapped out. and if no, how long a pause could you tolerate

21:33

my vague understanding is: if consciousness can exist "in" a computer, then what happens when the cpu states are reorganized arbitrarily, or distributed spatially? egan supposes that conscious entity can't detect the effect.

21:34

but then what _is_ the cpu state but an arrangement of electrons? and why can't I say "these electrons on my butt are cpu state 53, those on alpha centauri are cpu state 54..."

21:35

esthlos: d00d was sorta obsessed with this notion. he had another, earlier short story where mob boss is walking a schmuck into the forest to be shot, and tells him this yarn, and offers him a magic pill that will make it sink into his head, and ends up taking it himself, and eating own pistol

21:37

esthlos: i do not know whether egan knows this, but buncha doped californirasts took his 'software souls' thing and turned it into a religion, of sorts

21:37

esthlos consciousness can't exist "in" a computer.

21:37

!#s lesswrong

21:37

91 results for "lesswrong", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=lesswrong

21:37

^ them

21:37

not anymore than remanence of vision can exist "in" a camera.

21:37

subjective psychological phenomena are just that -- subjective.

21:38

it's come to where asciilifeform reads 'consciousness' and 'reaches for pistol'

21:38

tulpa few steps behind, eh ?

21:38

pretty much guarantee of dead-end snore

21:38

aaha

21:38

rofl

21:39

it's a phlogiston.

21:39

i think the causation is backwards, egan chooses substrate, assumes consciousness can exist on that substrate, then explores properties of substrate. doesn't say anything interesting about consciousness, but exploration of substrate. since naive mechanistic cellular machine interpretations are in vogue, that's the substrate that egan works with.

21:39

so THAT's what those less wrong folks are jerking off to

21:40

yeah, a computer program will produce the same result whether it runs on slow cpu or fast cpu. fascinating read.

21:40

to be fair to egan, the actual supposition is not that consciousness exists "in" computer, but that it has a mathematical representation. not that it affects mircea_popescu 's point

21:41

wank is wank is wank. what do you mean "mathematical representation" ? ie, "depersonalization" ? how exactly is the number 3 going to be "personal"

21:41

but yes, the universal, uniyelding, perpetual and ubiquitous problem of "people" who were born even though god didn't have souls to supply the meat with is this : life's too heavy a burden.

21:41

if only they somehow could not be...

21:45

the interesting twist is, even on comparatively deadly simple artificial comp, with 0 pretenses to 'conscious' anyffing, the notion that the soft is fully separable from the iron substrate, is poppycock.

21:46

( this is sorta the leitmotif of asciilifeform's crackpottery . )

21:46

*

asciilifeform bbl,meat

~ 46 minutes ~

22:33

the montesorri stuff makes me laugh. oh, you mean the little learning machine thrives on new and varied challenges? you don't fucking say

22:36

montresori education, do you fucking homework, or we bury you fucking alive

22:36

i have a stack of blank index cards upon which i write or draw whatever thing i feel like training the kid on at any given moment. "memory" games with shapes and letters and numbers, the alphabet and numbers, just starting in on word shapes. beyond that, no blinkenlichten, no plastics, a commitment to correcting diction and grammar all day and i'm pretty sure one's into diminishing returns after that

22:36

phf: lol

22:37

for god's sake, mr f!

22:38

"brio" actually ships battery-powered "engines", these days, with wheels that resist turning except when driven by batteries, if you can imagine.

22:39

the fuck kind of kid wants to watch a train roll about at 1 cm/min

22:39

("the fuck kind of child abuser makes these toys, you mean")

22:41

what's brio?

22:44

historically wood and steel train toys

22:44

these days battery-operated chinesium

22:46

traditionally in ru we had https://www.fleischmann.de/en/productsearch/0-0-0-0-0-0-0-001001-0/products.html which was powered from outlet and down converted. trains would go, when place on conductive tracks and you controlled the speed with a potentiometer, so there's some fucking montesori going on

22:49

i guess this was also popular in u.s., because i'd see it in movies and such, and presumably original mit hackers were model train fans, but i take it it's not really a 80s-90s kids thing..

22:49

*

trinque had a proper brio set as a kid

22:52

phf: i had a set quite like that as well, but never got into it. "so, it goes around? and if you go too fast, it pops off the track?" brio also more for the 2-5 set

22:54

oh hey i had phf 's train. aaand the... abusable.. transformer, of course

22:56

ben_vulpes: well, you need a nice length of tracks, nor do you need to make it a circle (just close the circuit by other means). it can figure nicely in any kind of gameplay, but honestly it gave me my first experiential understanding of electricity

22:57

but yeah, there was a shortage of age appropriate games in russia. parents would keep you from breaking something by basically going "if you break it, i'll give you away to mr. policeman" and such.

22:58

i eventually learned that unless i can feel the gs in the seat of my pants i have trouble giving much of a fuck

22:59

well shit buy him a squirrel suit then i dunno

23:00

*

phf takes his model trains and walks away to play by himself

23:01

and this is why i still don't have many male friends "we're going to go fly quadcopters!" "...why don't we drive out to the hangar and take the plane out instead?"

23:05

oh hey ben_vulpes flies nao ?

23:06

any goon can get a powered bird to do simple things

23:06

it is the gliders that are actually hard.

23:08

"flies" is a bit strong; i like big kinetic-energy toys and have friends with them.

23:08

fun inversely proportional to lethality and all that

23:09

phf i had one of those too.

23:10

ben_vulpes: aa, so you get flown, lol

23:10

2 to 12 v both ways converter, etc

23:10

asciilifeform: don't tell the inca but i fly

23:10

ben_vulpes generally around the age of 10-12 or so discover it can be applied to soft parts also.

23:11

mircea_popescu: yes!

23:11

but it came with model houses, trees, bridges, multiple switches etc.

23:11

even something as simple as a figure 8 with 2 engines of diff powers was fun to watch

23:12

was fun also to make 'hill' and 'discover' conservation of energy etc

23:12

i didn't have incline ramps in mine. but yes, these existed

23:12

anyway, beautiful handpainted railcars, too, had a double beer barrel thingee, all sorts.

23:12

aha i think we had same item

23:13

asciilifeform the plastic pine trees, round things go on a stick ?

23:13

yes indeed

23:13

yeah sounds like same. though i thought mine was from teh ddr.

23:14

mine was definitely from ddr

23:14

mega-toy

23:14

let's see how far this goes. square, olive green converter box, with a white selector, sorta angular shape ?

23:15

selector sat on an inclined cutout in the box, and the voltage was represented by squarish indentations on either side, increasing in size ?

23:17

https://wildwoodantiquemalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/1524675776960UTJ18NSXPF8TK4Q2VLKA.jpg <<< ohohoh!

23:19

huh i don't remember that style at all. looks like metal too, the ones that i had were plastic, kind of like https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/L350032-LN_3314489_Qty1_1.jpg

23:20

i think maybe even same GDR brand "liliput"

23:20

asciilifeform https://www.maerklin.de/en/products/z-scale/locomotives/ << check this out a) apparently it was maerklin ; b) still available.

23:20

expensive as shit still.

23:21

mircea_popescu: but no check out liliput, https://www.modellbahnwelt24.de/Liliput-3

23:21

*

mircea_popescu checks

23:22

phf this is confusing, because the engines look right but the cars do not.

23:22

nah, definitely not it, wrong rail system. this seems flexible ? https://www.modellbahnwelt24.de/media/image/product/46180/md/li-pfp-h0-01_liliput-proses-pfp-h0-01-flexgleishalter-fuer-h0-00.jpg

23:23

i found märklin first when searching, but it's not gdr

23:23

mine were definitely rigid. pre-curved elements. had to mix and match, i had a ballot of them

23:23

yeah, i'm pretty sure they've not even made flexible ones until quite recently

23:24

ah

23:24

hm.

23:24

but if i had to guess from picture there's two straights at the end and three curves in the middle

23:24

or two rather

23:24

i recall TT branding, but that's just generic size indication

23:26

phf https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DnUWFFS_zBs/maxresdefault.jpg << this looks very right re rails. which is why i thought marklin

23:27

in fact all of their track shots look exactly like it

23:27

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vCVSFfWfOEo/maxresdefault.jpg etc

23:27

oh lol apparently they made them in ussr also http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/our-library/2008-05-07-13-48-02/117-2008-07-23-17-21-55

23:28

http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/images/portal_files/vasily/istoriya_proizvodstva/ov_02.jpg

23:28

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/M%C3%A4rklin_2881_-_KPEV_S10_1008.jpg/800px-M%C3%A4rklin_2881_-_KPEV_S10_1008.jpg << definitely ; had this exact item.

23:30

honestly half of the ones i saw, from a totally different range of companies, look familiar, but i suspect that at least moscovites got the ussr version, probably something like this http://scaletrainsclub.com/portal/images/portal_files/vasily/istoriya_proizvodstva/ov_05.jpg

23:30

it's the details though, like say the conical buffer plate supports, or the electrified wheel and so on

23:33

phf funny, rails linked from there look 100% like "patriotic knockoff rails"

23:33

hmm true, also the soviets probably wouldn't make those german style train stations

23:34