Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-03-19 | 2022-03-21 →
00:09 asciilifeform thimbronion: thrd
00:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-11 17:07:10 asciilifeform: meanwhile (possibly for billymg to play with...) baked a simple icon for pestism to use on asciilifeform's www sidebar. billymg et al feel free to fiddle with it if you have time, propose changes.
00:10 asciilifeform mats: had nfi
~ 1 hours ~
01:10 verisimilitude https://myfox8.com/news/north-carolina/high-point/its-apparently-easy-to-bypass-a-gas-pump-and-steal-400-gallons-or-more/
01:11 verisimilitude It's so reassuring that society is going to collapse because, while hardware must work, whatever some dipshits throw together is fine for the software.
~ 1 hours 9 minutes ~
02:21 verisimilitude If I don't want a recvfrom to be able to choke a sendto in my design, I probably shouldn't even use a protected object. The UNIXen probably even make these atomic with respect to one another, don't they? That just turns the original higher design over the UNIX garbage into a package with a limited private type as a subprogram parameter. I suppose it will be fine, if I were to do that.
02:24 verisimilitude I'll cross that bridge when I reach it.
02:32 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085920 << 'deskilling'(tm)(r)
02:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-19 21:10:25 verisimilitude: It's so reassuring that society is going to collapse because, while hardware must work, whatever some dipshits throw together is fine for the software.
02:35 asciilifeform meanwhile, cement tester at 666+k.
02:36 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085919 << normally they fill up w/ stolen cc, but this happens often enuff that aint nooseworthy
02:36 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-19 21:10:05 verisimilitude: https://myfox8.com/news/north-carolina/high-point/its-apparently-easy-to-bypass-a-gas-pump-and-steal-400-gallons-or-more/
~ 20 minutes ~
02:56 verisimilitude I suppose using the C Convention in Ada handles all aliasing concerns.
02:58 mats word salad https://www.otcpm24.com/2022/03/19/the-case-for-buying-btc-for-national-security-jason-lowery
03:08 crtdaydreams in miniluv lulz: YouTube Odysee
03:14 verisimilitude I grow more disgusted by the day.
03:18 crtdaydreams Do note that the companies mentioned are producing pr0n, although it's arguable that after a certain point you'd become completely desensitized to it.
03:28 verisimilitude I could guess.
03:34 thimbronion the lowery guy is either radioactive or retarded
~ 24 minutes ~
03:58 verisimilitude ``Amateur employee jerks off in pod while he thinks no one is watching.''
04:00 crtdaydreams Heh
04:01 crtdaydreams 1.4 million views
~ 34 minutes ~
04:36 whaack thimbronion: another monitor vendor: cococo.co.cr
~ 1 hours 9 minutes ~
05:45 mangol "Amateur employee"
05:50 mangol headline "Should employees jerk off at work?" << The Onion can no longer compete with reality, exhibit Z
05:50 mangol https://search.brave.com/search?q=the+onion+headlines+that+came+true
~ 36 minutes ~
06:27 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-18#1085512 << signpost: would be interesting to read a review of CLIM if you can write one sometime
06:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-18 17:42:58 signpost: has written and fielded a product that used mcclim for UI, wasn't in love with it afterwords.
06:30 * mangol perusing https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune -- can't find anything there except a simple stitching together of some well known lispy software
06:31 mangol signpost: asciilifeform: do you know if he has more stuff elsewhere?
~ 8 hours 6 minutes ~
14:38 asciilifeform mangol: afaik that's all he had posted (or even mentioned baking)
~ 20 minutes ~
14:58 mangol asciilifeform: thanks. a web search doesn't find anything else either
14:59 mangol imho the right way to start is to take maxima, then start CL-ifying Emacs into the same lisp image
15:00 mangol masamune seems to have climacs which is not quite the same thing
15:01 mangol i once looked thru all the CL Emacs projects i could find, and none of them could condescend to implement something GNU Emacs / ELisp compatible
15:01 mangol which is why it's been a decade+ and we still don't hear anything from them
15:03 mangol lispers just can't stop desiging new things (as naggum said, "this time it'll be done right"(TM) or something along those lines) and adapt something that works
15:06 asciilifeform mangol: elisp is a horror tho, can't blame folx for wanting to be rid of it
15:06 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-06-19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: elisp is a gnarly surviver of dark age 1970s lisps, suffers -- unfixably -- from problems long ago solved even in 'scheme' (e.g. 'funarg problem')
15:06 asciilifeform naturally people cling to it for compatibility; but it's a microshit-quality item imho
15:07 mangol the details suck, as does the VM, no argument there
15:07 mangol but the basic language is almost like (the non-CLOS subset of) CL
15:07 asciilifeform ( see also e.g. )
15:07 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-03-20 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2016#1436666 << elisp , and emacs as a whole , suck donkey balls. it is in many ways a microscopic model of how linux sucks, a turd for which NO replacement is available, so it is kept on life support at all costs .
15:07 mangol which means you can start with elisp code, and gradually massage it toward proper CL
15:08 thimbronion ty whaack looks promising
15:08 asciilifeform mangol: well as soon as you dispose of dynamic scope, will have to rewrite pretty much ~all~ legacy elispisms
15:08 mangol nope, lexical-binding has been the norm since Emacs 24
15:08 mangol virtually all new elisp uses it
15:09 asciilifeform lol but do you use anyffin which postdates 24 ? e.g. asciilifeform doesn't
15:09 mangol dynamic scope is a recipe for bugs, to be sure. kill it with fire (except for special (no pun intended) purposes)
15:09 mangol pun: dynamic variable == "special variable" in CL spec parlance)
15:09 asciilifeform recent elispism is a writhing horror where erry little script demands over9000 deps (which user is expected to allow to auto-download)
15:10 * asciilifeform doesn't use any of it
15:10 mangol imho MELPA is a godsend that keeps emacs relevant
15:10 asciilifeform ugh mno, can't agree there
15:10 mangol agree that some of it is sliding toward nodejs-style script kiddie dependency hell. but not all
15:17 mangol and with increasing frequency of the artisanal developer tantrums verisimilitude linked for us, some kind of signing/trust system wouldn't hurt
15:17 mangol current MELPA is totally laissez-faire once you get past the initial code review
15:26 mangol here's the relevant naggum message: https://mirror.lisp.fi/naggum-articles/3242144155107453%40naggum.no.txt
15:28 mangol xach url of same: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242144155107453@naggum.no.html
~ 28 minutes ~
15:57 mangol also jwz on related matter: https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
15:58 mangol CADT will happen to all emacs reimplementation projects that won't run (lightly edited) elisp originally written for GNU Emacs
15:59 mangol many elisp heroes also grok wider lisp culture, and i expect they would be happy to help make their stuff compatible with CL if they can do so with moderate effort
16:01 mangol AFAICT the main brake on emacs modernization is the inner circle at GNU, chief among them RMS
16:02 mangol (again AFAICT) that's where the dodgy parts of elisp come from. and why they insist on adding incompatible versions of stuff that CL already has
16:03 mangol back in the day, XEmacs already had better APIs than GNU Emacs. but GNU did (sometimes incompatible) reimplementations of much of that stuff
16:03 asciilifeform mangol: seeing what 'modernity' largely consists of, asciilifeform finds it difficult to disagree with rms et al 'brake on modernization'
16:04 asciilifeform at this pt 'modernizers', if given free hand, would rewrite the thing in nodejs or java or somesuch and declare actual emacs 'obsolete'
16:05 asciilifeform (already happening at the edges where rms can't 'brake', hence the melpa liquishit)
16:05 mangol i read that article of yours when it came our, good stuff :)
16:05 mangol much of the code in MELPA is better than much of the stuff that ships with emacs IME
16:05 mangol just from reading the .el files
16:05 mangol and the MELPA inner circle are great to work with
16:06 asciilifeform the 'over9000 deps' and 'user is expected to allow autodownload' kills it for me
16:06 asciilifeform doesn't matter how supposedly 'good' some of it
16:06 mangol well, package.el is a package manager in the style of APT, YUM, FreeBSD ports, etc.
16:06 asciilifeform yea and asciilifeform's emacs does exactly fine w/out a package manager
16:06 mangol with the difference that MELPA is usually set to pull from git mater
16:06 mangol *master
16:07 asciilifeform dun matter from where. asciilifeform ~reads~ the elisps when installing'em
16:07 mangol that has scaled very well so far, but at some point someone will pull a nodejs-style tantrum
16:07 asciilifeform arguably 'package managers' are good % of why the bloat of linux etc to start with.
16:07 asciilifeform 'scaling' is not an unmitigated good, mangol
16:08 mangol we may disagree on what constitutes bloat
16:08 mangol AFAICT the bloat in open source comes from 1) corporations; and 2) GNOME-style "enterprise" development style
16:08 asciilifeform well if previously something were small enuff to read & grasp, and 'modernized' variant aint, then to asciilifeform -- bloat, and verdict cannot be appealed.
16:09 mangol that's basically the forth / suckless mindset. nobody else relies on reading all source by yourself
16:10 asciilifeform it's the mindset of the days when computing was actually progressing meaningfully.
16:10 mangol another relevant naggum msg: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3236870273259433@naggum.net.html
16:11 mangol "Appreciating the value of a large language is evidently hard for many people, just like many people find themselves miserable in the big city and go to great lengths to create a small village for themselves in the city where everything is like it used to be where they came from."
16:11 asciilifeform mangol: this one's even in my naggum article
16:11 mangol :)
16:12 mangol my whole coding mentality nowadays is basically "how to make things palatable when you can't ever hope to do everything by yourself / with friends"
16:13 asciilifeform mangol: is interesting how 'cl is large language' did not age well, what with <1k entries in clhs index -- compare to just about any 'modern' item
16:13 mangol yep :D
16:13 mangol emacs vs vi editor wars also came mainly from emacs being huge IIRC
16:13 mangol quaint now
16:13 asciilifeform 'large' in reality aint about mass, but about cancerious proliferation (or lack thereof)
16:14 asciilifeform *cancerous
16:14 mangol has anyone figured out how to make a large mass of code without the cancer?
16:14 mangol symbolics, inc. may have come closest
16:14 asciilifeform well, the commonlisp folx. by closing the standard.
16:15 mangol a comfortable OS for general use is at least 100x the size of CL
16:15 asciilifeform dunno, asciilifeform found e.g. msdos entirely comfortable.
16:16 mangol you'd probably love the Canon Cat from Jef Raskin
16:16 mangol coded in Forth. legend says not a single bug was ever found in it
16:16 mangol Raskin was one of the top iconoclasts in the history of the field
16:16 asciilifeform mangol: i read his book on the subj. but never seen the box itself -- rarity
16:17 mangol IIRC recent versions of MAME can emulate it, but i haven't tried
16:17 mangol the Apple II was also supposedly bug-free
16:20 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086009 << the problem with this philosophy is that the adapter between you and the world only gets fatter.
16:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 12:12:09 mangol: my whole coding mentality nowadays is basically "how to make things palatable when you can't ever hope to do everything by yourself / with friends"
16:20 asciilifeform ( see also )
16:20 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-10-25 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
16:20 signpost and ftr, this does not mean that reality can be appealed if it leaves with no viable options.
16:23 mangol i think it leaves no viable options
16:23 mangol much of what we call computation is really about communication, and that has to be done over whatever protoclols/formats others are using
16:24 asciilifeform mangol: there always is the option of not thinking 'amoebically' and rolling straight into 'unviable' with the aim of making it viable.
16:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-06 18:58:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-06#1082669 << 'people' who behave amoebically (i.e. follow gradient of 'tastier right there right now'). and see also.
16:24 mangol the alternative to hill-climbing is doing something completely different. it's hard to get large numbers of people to do that
16:25 asciilifeform so you do it with own 2 hands, if you have to.
16:25 mangol to what end?
16:25 asciilifeform granted 'modern man' has serious trouble w/ the concept. but it remains
16:25 asciilifeform mangol: personal matter. pick what appeals, e.g. 'for odin'
16:25 signpost why large numbers of people? are we going to vote on it?
16:25 mangol i don't romanticize DIY, to me it's a burden as often as a delight
16:26 mangol the ideal is that others already did all the work for me. i just have to have some way to trust they did a decent job
16:27 mangol that has a technical aspect (e.g. web of trust) but it's more of a social/cultura matter, which is the problem i'm attacking
16:27 signpost gonna give you the same resistance that kid talking about "all women want the same thing" as though it was the first time.
16:27 signpost in good spirit, of course.
16:27 asciilifeform mangol: lemme offer an example. in '15 asciilifeform wrote a versioning/publication system called 'v'. maybe dozen people, at most, use it currently. asciilifeform does not see this as a tragedy, it still worx, doesn't in any way rely on 'masses'
16:28 asciilifeform or e.g. 'pest' worx just fine if there were only 2 stations.
16:29 mangol signpost: i don't get what you're referring to
16:29 asciilifeform granted, 'mass adoptions' stroke ego of author, and harmlessly -- so long as he resists temptation to debase the product so as to appeal to such 'mass'
16:29 asciilifeform in actual practice, few resisted
16:29 * signpost would also be perfectly happy on a machine that ran at 1980s specs, aside a few accelerated operations like RSA crypto.
16:29 signpost hashing perhaps
16:29 mangol asciilifeform: it's a value judgment. to me, large scale adoption > purity
16:29 signpost mangol: yes, you're stating this as bare evident fact. why large scale adoption?
16:29 mangol huh? i said it's a value judgment
16:30 signpost are you unwilling to explain why you value it?
16:30 mangol emotionally
16:30 mangol i'm interested in things that "scale"
16:30 mangol some people aren't
16:30 signpost to my mind, most of the problem is in not being able to obtain computing hardware without planet-scale industrial processes.
16:31 mangol sure, that's a huge liability in end times
16:31 signpost that I have no idea how to "garage fab" doesn't make it not the solution, eh?
16:31 mangol also mass adoption "strokes ego of author" but purity doesn't? :D
16:31 signpost you are using terms which you don't want me to press you for definitions.
16:32 mangol to most people, purity = wank, and they have a point
16:32 signpost what's purity here? I would replace it with practicality.
16:32 signpost except in the real sense of that word.
16:32 mangol even i am squarely on the wank end of the purity scale, and i'm not much of a purist
16:33 asciilifeform mangol: observe that at no pt asciilifeform referred to 'purity'. but to 'fits in head', which is not about an abstract 'beauty' in any sense, but about conserving a very finite natural resource (brain cycles) -- i.e. complexity cancer in effect makes everyone stupider
16:33 signpost I'd argue that you consider democracy bedrock truth, rather than a particular political construction.
16:33 mangol scheme is about ideal for me. average scheme code looks as pretty as the prettiest code in most other langs. but it still lets you take shortcuts where needed
16:34 signpost yeah, "pure" or "ideal" seem like traps. suppose I move the goalpost on you, tell you that you're not really free, because you didn't fab the chip, or if not that, didn't mine the minerals, or rule the country, or.
16:35 mangol yeah :D
16:35 signpost if computers are thinking tools, why is this one before me thwarting much of my reasoning about what it's actually doing.
16:35 signpost seems a pretty bad thinking tool.
16:35 mangol signpost: i'm completely disillusioned with democracy, FWIW
16:35 asciilifeform the interesting, per asciilifeform's lights, fact, is that complexity cancer makes it so that even if you've enuff dough to fab ic, you ~still~ are in the glue trap, cannot make a civilized machine
16:36 signpost mangol: gotta press on things to bring them to the surface, is all
16:36 * signpost considers himself quite the stuck pig on these subjects, ftr
16:37 mangol signpost: at the end of the day, most of the stuff computers do is pretty boring. much of the lispm or smalltalk code is mundane
16:37 mangol the forth mentality is that computers should simply do less
16:38 mangol but "computers doing less" is approx. same as "you talk to fewer people"
16:38 mangol as in, exchange information with fewer people
16:38 mangol most people don't want that
16:38 * signpost would far rather know the ~100 people on earth with whom he can refine his sanity than shotgun his farts to all of twitter
16:39 mangol it's a continuum. you don't have to reside on one of those two poles
16:40 signpost well, say what I can do otherwise, though. rather than what I don't have to.
16:40 mangol i like having stuff like FFmpeg, i.e. if i find a video from somewhere, i know i can just play it
16:41 mangol therefore, for my values it's better to gradualy polish a turd than to livein my own self-made bubble
16:41 signpost hey, life itself agrees with you.
16:41 mangol lol
16:41 mangol ofc there are times, jobs, and people for whom security is paramount. nobody argues that you should have rock solid single-purpose stuff there
16:42 mangol but most of life just isn't that serious
16:42 signpost but doesn't seem to preclude having a device in my pocket that can fart pest packets to my friends over radio
16:42 signpost isn't even security
16:42 signpost it's a matter of excluding the imperial mind-rape
16:42 mangol otherwise known as propaganda?
16:42 signpost if taken as broadly as possible.
16:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086089 << fwiw asciilifeform enjoyed computer over9000 moar than currently long before hdd could even theoretically hold >3m of film
16:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 12:39:27 mangol: i like having stuff like FFmpeg, i.e. if i find a video from somewhere, i know i can just play it
16:44 mangol brb
16:45 * signpost will agree with mangol that should such a pocket of sanity exist, and grow, it'd be because the membrane around it is semipermeable. things of value flow in, like any organism.
16:47 signpost doesn't mean they have to keep the same form. can be digested.
16:52 * signpost gonna go work in the yard for a bit
17:02 mangol asciilifeform: agree that too much layering is a burden on the mind. early computers didn't have that
17:03 mangol a lot of the layering in MS/Apple/Linux is redundant. if we could have a system where only the communication protocols are redundant, and the core is refactored such that each concern is addressed only once, that'd be ideal
17:03 mangol you can't eliminate the comms protocols if you wanna talk to lots of people, but the rest you can, with time
17:04 mangol FFmpeg = over 9000 ways to play a video, etc.
17:05 mangol i guess the summary is that we approach the same problem from the opposite ends. how to have a beautiful, comprehensible system. i want to polish turds, you want to start from first principles and build up
17:06 mangol the thing that really drives me is, i'm constantly aware in the back of my mind that we have enough people to make a good, naggum-style big-city system
17:06 mangol but these people can't work together to save their lives
17:06 mangol if we could get all the Lisp and ML people working together on one system, it'd be a solved problem
17:06 mangol only the lispers / only the ml'ers, would probably work out as well
17:07 mangol even a subset of either camp would get you very far. one person who appreciates these langs i worth a lot
17:08 mangol but instead we get The Lisp Curse, where everyone writes a teenage manifesto of how he'll make everything right, hacks feverishly for a few years, and makes something no one else will use
17:09 mangol i tried to get Loko Scheme's author to talk to Mezzano's author so together they could spec a Driver Lisp language, so they could share device drivers
17:10 mangol with a standard like that, over time, some of the richer lispers could even pay people to port Linux/BSD drivers to lisp part-time
17:10 mangol but no, he has a beautiful and perfect idea for how to write drivers, and the other guy's OS would defile it in some unspecific way
17:10 mangol same story every time
~ 49 minutes ~
18:00 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086025 << asciilifeform: https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/drivers/cat.cpp
18:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 12:16:19 mangol: IIRC recent versions of MAME can emulate it, but i haven't tried
18:01 mangol ^ if anyone here gets this working, would be very interesting to hear about your experiences
18:08 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086047 Similarly, only I use the MMC to my knowledge, but I never really built it for anyone else, only myself.
18:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 12:27:01 asciilifeform: mangol: lemme offer an example. in '15 asciilifeform wrote a versioning/publication system called 'v'. maybe dozen people, at most, use it currently. asciilifeform does not see this as a tragedy, it still worx, doesn't in any way rely on 'masses'
18:09 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086112 I was drawn to Lisp in-part so I could avoid ever working with others.
18:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 13:05:35 mangol: but these people can't work together to save their lives
~ 18 minutes ~
18:27 mangol verisimilitude: Common Lisp is a triumph of lispers who worked especially well with others. As is Emacs, as was Symbolics
18:27 mangol Forth or APL is the upper limit of the lasting value that one computer genius can produce for humanity
18:28 verisimilitude We'll see.
18:28 verisimilitude Personally, my greater plans don't have room for Lisp; as McCarthy wrote, it's a local optimum.
18:30 mangol 1e6 hackers have said approx. that
18:31 verisimilitude I don't want ``languages'' in the future of programming, mangol.
18:32 mangol don't want languages == http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/COSA.htm
18:32 mangol AFAICT that guy started by asking, "why are electronics so much more reliable than software"
18:33 mangol more specifically "why can any grunt make reliable electronics, yet a genius can't make reliable software"
18:39 mangol the claim that visual programming can avoid degenerating into a "tower of babel" like text-based programming is interesting. i'm skeptical.
18:40 mangol my approach to babel = turd polishing, once again. try to get existing langs working together, coordinating stuff that doesn't have to differ
18:40 verisimilitude I'll compare this COSA to tabular programming.
18:41 mangol enjoy! that site is one of the best if you're into computer crackpottery
18:41 verisimilitude Everyone here is.
18:42 mangol exactly. (full disclosure, i'm one of the resident crackpots in scheme)
18:43 jonsykkel never understood why no programing langs have concept of a wire. for wireing shit together like u do with hardware
18:44 jonsykkel with exeption of | in shell, whcih is the same idea but crippled cuz max 2 wires per "component"
18:45 mangol jonsykkel: higher-order functions are approx. like wiring
18:46 mangol and there's the graph-like visual prog langs, e.g. LabVIEW
18:46 mangol those programs have connectors that look like literal wires
18:47 mangol there's some handwavy quip that visual programming is doomed because you can fit only about 50 elements per screen
18:47 verisimilitude See this, jonsykkel.
18:47 jonsykkel i will gogle these terms
18:48 verisimilitude ``Of particular interest is the construction functional form, which satisfies a want I'm left with by other languages: for a value to be used in multiple contexts without a name.''
18:48 mangol that quip was memed so programmers with the hacker news mentality can now reactively (no pun intended) shut down any discussion of visual programming with "it'll never work"
18:49 jonsykkel hehe
18:49 mangol FWIW Jef Raskin (of Canon Cat) did a bunch of experiments with zoomable user interfaces (ZUI) with excellent results, was convinced those are the future
18:50 mangol ofc the field then proceeded to ignore him
18:54 jonsykkel is intresting stuf i ned to read. im guess u can more precisely tell computer exactly wat and how to do things with text files, maybe these files belong in lower abstraction lvls and visual type thign in higher lvls
18:54 jonsykkel or smth
18:54 verisimilitude All ``visual programming'' I've seen pales to mine envisioning.
18:54 jonsykkel similar to how c progs or watever are wired together on shell
18:55 verisimilitude I thought of a system which truly has no text whatsoever.
18:55 verisimilitude All ``visual programming'' I've seen has text in boxen at some point.
18:55 jonsykkel wat does it have insted
18:57 verisimilitude I'll explain.
18:57 verisimilitude ``I believe creating a programming language which allows for the creation of custom notation will have a similar effect to that interactive languages have had; both qualities must be a part of the system from its inception to properly work, and any attempt to do otherwise is always but a poor emulation.
18:57 verisimilitude It disgusts me that equality, addition, multiplication, and select others are so privileged so as to be given slots in the character sets, whereas other notations aren't made so omnipresent and innate. The decimal digits are included in this disgust; such things shouldn't be embedded into foundations.''
18:58 mangol i once tried explaining to #scheme that textual programming _is_ visual programming. namely, the subset of visual programming where you confine yourself to a rectangular grid of characters
18:58 verisimilitude ``This also has a large effect on programming languages. The mathematicians can truly create notation that suits its context. The programmers cannot. I'm unable to include my crest in a text except as an image, yet humanity has a proud tradition of including such things in letters and whatnot. These machines are unable to offer anything grand enough to justify destroying these and other traditions.''
18:58 mangol so we're already doing visual programming, but a really clumsy and underpowered version of it
18:58 verisimilitude The basic idea, jonsykkel, is to have a graphical definition system, and the ability to compose other definitions. I realized it was a reduction system, at some point.
18:58 mangol there's no way to avoid visual programming without using braille or something
18:59 verisimilitude The MMC isn't visual programming.
18:59 verisimilitude It's a tool.
19:00 verisimilitude So, consider exponentiation, jonsykkel. My system would allow the graphical representation of that to be two boxen, one smaller at the upper-right of the other, with a definition that does what it should.
19:00 verisimilitude The equivalent to PROGN would just be a box perimeter.
19:00 jonsykkel sounds about right mangol
19:03 mangol jonsykkel: nobody ever lost in popularity by underestimating the poverty of imagination of programmers
19:03 mangol *underestimating the imagination
19:05 mangol one of the most accomplished ML hackers said computing is the slowest-moving field of technology he's ever seen
19:06 mangol something to the effect that every other tech field reinvents its fundamentals every 10-20 years
19:06 jonsykkel i guess its moving, just in al kindsa random nonsense directions at the same time
19:07 mangol yea, "a giant step in no direction at all"
19:09 mangol the obvious way to start in visual programming is to make window dressing for lisp macros (i.e. each macro call is shown as a user-friendly GUI widget)
19:10 mangol combine that with Raskin's ZUI idea to shut up that "50 elements" nonsense
19:10 mangol ...which applies to labview-style graphs as well if you wanna go that route (no pun intended)
19:11 mangol as far as "the working programmer" is concerned, the state of the art in visual programming is syntax coloring in MS Visual Studio
19:11 verisimilitude Oh, also, my visual programming system would avoid Common Lisp's #N= and #N# circularity nonsense.
19:11 mangol it's really hard to make anything more underwhelming than that
19:11 verisimilitude Systems could be shown to the proper detail. An infinite recursion all on the screen is eventually halted by the system determining no more pixels would change.
19:13 mangol verisimilitude: have you seen Simonyi's presentations about the stuff his startup Intentional Software was building?
19:14 mangol Simonyi is the original author of Microsoft Office (or at least Word)
19:14 mangol Intentional Software = basically some business-friendly version of window-dressing for Lisp macros
19:14 mangol i don't know if they ever shipped something you can buy
19:15 mangol they had the kind of math input you mention, for starters
19:15 jonsykkel hehe, the state of the art christmas tree coloring is unbearable visual noise for most part also
19:15 verisimilitude No, mangol.
19:16 mangol jonsykkel: that's an apt metaphor for our field. current visual proramming is to potential of visual programming like a christmas three is to a theme park
19:16 mangol *tree
19:17 mangol we aren't even trying
19:18 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086190 << this warcrime is a 'credential' nao?!!
19:18 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 15:13:29 mangol: Simonyi is the original author of Microsoft Office (or at least Word)
19:19 jonsykkel i shud look into this stuf. making couple of those retarded fbd programs for plcs is the extent to which im familiar with visual programing
19:21 mangol jonsykkel: visual programming is in its infancy, so it may even be beneficial to explore without knowing anything about the prior art
19:21 verisimilitude A literal warcrime would be more impressive, asciilifeform.
19:22 mangol asciilifeform: something like Office was a new thing at the time. it wasn't N'th iteration of the same old concept like we keep churning out endlessly
19:23 asciilifeform mangol: wtf was new about it ?
19:23 mangol properly speaking, Office was probably ripped off from Xerox PARC. was PARC committing warcrimes?
19:23 jonsykkel cud be, avoiding the "trodden path" branch of tree seems to be only thing that makes sense in stagnant fields
19:24 mangol yep - stagnant, or never properly started to begin with
19:24 asciilifeform afaik the only 'innovation' in msword was the part where regularly crashed (and to this day) and loses days of work. well, and also macrovirii, transformed from hoax to reality by microshit
19:24 mangol lol
19:24 verisimilitude Don't forget the ``quick save'' that keeps changes; a murderer was caught that way, unfortunately.
19:26 mangol speaking of quick save, computers still lose work when you neglect to save manually
19:26 mangol pervasive checkpointing should be here any decade now
19:27 mangol http://tunes.org/wiki/orthogonal_20persistence.html
19:27 mangol "An excellent read is Jochen Liedtke's A Persistent System in Real Use - Experiences of the First 13 Years (1993)"
19:27 mangol laugh or weep as appropriate
19:37 mangol good stuff on ZUIs here: https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/98911/why-aren-t-zuis-zoomable-user-interfaces-popular
19:37 mangol "Raskin’s ZUI is good for organizing large amounts of information in a way that makes applications obsolete; but the current computing landscape is all about "apps""
19:40 verisimilitude Businesses aren't inclined to build useful software.
19:50 whaack thimbronion: they also deliver throughout the country
20:00 verisimilitude It's interesting how PĀX (peace) is feminine and BELLVM (war) is neuter.
~ 17 minutes ~
20:17 mangol Free Software had the chance to dismantle the apps model of businesses but instead they too split into warring camps. perhaps they are neutered.
20:19 mangol but with the recent influx of feminine energy into the movement, will finally achieve peace
20:19 verisimilitude The champions of Free Software was never concerned about fighting such a model.
20:19 verisimilitude The champions of Free Software were never concerned about fighting such a model.
20:32 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086214 << It's been done in a VM form. Haven't tried it yet, somewhere on ~/org/todo.org
20:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 15:26:26 mangol: http://tunes.org/wiki/orthogonal_20persistence.html
20:33 crtdaydreams I would assume it's not healthy for constant R/W calls but that's ofc ``hardware problem''
20:34 crtdaydreams (((SSD beware!!11!)))
20:36 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: for that matter was done on pdp8 w/ core mem, lol.
20:37 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: really? Long before my time...
20:37 * asciilifeform followed the 'phantom' link, mind boggles re why the thing has an explicit compiler, rather than the sane way (as illustrated in e.g. 'losetheos')
20:38 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: in what way is it significant that 'before your time' ? the folx who did it, and presumably you, all part of a literate culture, you can see how it worked w/out excavating a sealed tomb in a pyramid
20:39 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: Didn't intend for that assumption to be made, simply I haven't encountered a pdp8 in the wild, nor had the opportunity to study it as of yet.
20:39 asciilifeform if anyffin, far, far easier to study it nao than when it was new
20:40 crtdaydreams ^^^ 100% agree
20:41 crtdaydreams just hasn't been on the ever growing list of TODOs (til nao)
20:41 asciilifeform even e.g. symbolics machine, the ~7k asciilifeform paid for his -- pocket change compared to what cost originally (perhaps just south of 1e6$ if converted to modern dough)
20:42 asciilifeform not even speaking here of all the boxen there's a 100% working emulation for
20:42 * crtdaydreams dearly would love to use a lispm, if just once. couldn't possibly express the need to own one
20:43 crtdaydreams I tried to get a c64 emu going once. Obv. didn't go very far, this was wen back in school, was merely an excuse to procrastinate.
20:44 asciilifeform wtf was so difficult about it, that ended in 'tried' ?
20:44 thimbronion crtdaydreams: a fun project would be to build your own z80 comp. highly educational.
20:44 * asciilifeform spent moar time in emulated c64 on 486 than on actual c64, it having been the 1st emulator that worked worth a shit on pc
20:45 asciilifeform (oblig. ancient history: 'sid' box by asciilifeform for use w/ same)
20:45 crtdaydreams thimbronion: IIRC z80 is 8080 clone?
20:45 asciilifeform ( the patch is in mainline 'vice' to this day last i saw! )
20:47 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: mp3s are gone :(
20:47 thimbronion crtdaydreams: appears to be
20:47 verisimilitude I really should play with the emulated Lisp Machine.
20:48 verisimilitude I'm so anticipating having the pieces of my desired systems finished, so I may then play with the Lego bricks.
20:50 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: neat project tho. far easier to just write an emu and push audio to e.g. alsa
20:50 crtdaydreams s/write/use/
20:50 crtdaydreams Could be a fun project to ~write~ one though. might learn a lot.
20:51 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: odd, the files are still there. nfi wai barfs when loading, will have to dig in later
20:58 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086246 << not exactly, was extension of 8080 instr set
20:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 16:44:53 crtdaydreams: thimbronion: IIRC z80 is 8080 clone?
20:59 asciilifeform z80 is still produced today, incidentally
21:06 crtdaydreams hm. so you can fab one with a breadboard and a few transistors?
21:07 crtdaydreams s/few/a few buckets/
~ 29 minutes ~
21:37 thimbronion crtdaydreams: http://thimbron.com/2016/08/thortron/
21:41 thimbronion pics aren't loading for some reason
21:45 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086258 << http://collapseos.org/ targets Z80 (among a few others)
21:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 16:58:26 asciilifeform: z80 is still produced today, incidentally
21:45 thimbronion Will be nice when it's possible to blog via pest.
21:45 mangol best
21:46 mangol Collapse Forth is cool but Collapse Lisp would be even cooler
21:50 crtdaydreams bbl
21:50 crtdaydreams thimbronion: nice, would like to see more in the future
21:53 mangol Collapse OS -- Why? "I expect our global supply chain to collapse before we reach 2030."
21:55 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086265 IRC also counts as blogging by this definition.
21:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 17:44:52 thimbronion: Will be nice when it's possible to blog via pest.
21:57 thimbronion verisimilitude: not sure what you mean. I envision a built in local http server that loads pages fetched via lubyism
21:59 thimbronion One could also take the DCC route
21:59 verisimilitude HTTP over Pest makes no goddamn sense.
22:00 verisimilitude Have I misunderstood something?
22:01 thimbronion verisimilitude: not sure. thus far no questions for clarification.
~ 45 minutes ~
22:47 mats why do you think we need an os after collapse
22:47 mats and is it really reasonable to think this collapse will be evenly distributed than disproportionately affect people without manufacturing
22:49 verisimilitude It's rather like having gasoline to power the entertainment system in collapse, isn't it?
~ 21 minutes ~
23:11 asciilifeform btw, prev. 'collapseos' thrd.
23:11 dulapbot Logged on 2020-08-02 03:30:30 gregorynyssa: https://collapseos.org/
23:12 asciilifeform fella has a sorta-updated and reasonable collapse chronicle btw.
23:13 asciilifeform the item itself aint unreasonable, is a forth + some asm/eeprom tooling
23:14 asciilifeform tho must point out that most real-life uses of z80 and other period cpus did not make use of anyffin one'd recognize as 'an os', there simply wasn't cycles or memory to spare for one
23:15 * asciilifeform wrote 'into desk' a number of z80 and 6502 designs, for e.g. otp machine; but since soured on iron biz and has 0 plans to sell
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2020-02-04 22:26:26 asciilifeform: shinohai: the funniest paradox, is that it is ~impossible to make a conventional '+ev' biz case for sane irons. (given that '100% openly published specs' is intrinsically part of 'sane'.) and so to bake it, yer stuck to work with insane folx. or w/ whatever coins you can muster on own power.
23:16 * asciilifeform also does not suffer the illusion that such items would be readily buildable from junkyard iron, or in serious demand that'd justify anyone's effort
23:19 asciilifeform fwiw even e.g. fg already no longer buildable as orig. designed, and that's without even 1 nuke popping yet
23:19 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-06 17:04:18 asciilifeform: '...and the XC9572XL CPLD, and both of them now have limited or no supply' << RIP folx who wanted to bake verbatim FG knockoffs, apparently
23:21 asciilifeform an e.g. otp pirate hf radio text communicator would be in principle valuable (to ~some~, it aint much good for shooting and you can't eat it..) but again there aint, as far as asciilifeform knows, any biz model that'd support the baking of such a thing
23:23 asciilifeform the hard part remains organizing a set of people who'd hypothetically get sumthing outta having such a thing. rather than the iron.
23:26 asciilifeform as it is, afaik the (even hypothetically) relevant people don't trust anyffin electronic at all, and hard to blame'em given what's avail.
23:26 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-15 14:57:41 asciilifeform: it's entirely unsurprising tho, that difficult to sell ru (king or slave) on btc, or 'redneck', etc on btc, when his only experience with pc is arsebook running on win11
23:29 verisimilitude Not only that, but there are so many scams in which a man can lose his money, but if he manages to gain too much, we saw what happened with Ethereum.
23:30 * asciilifeform esp. disappointed with the 'ham radio' folx, who 'law abiding' to the point of pathology and in fact will be the 1st to rat you out if they 'hear' you, and not at all ashamed of the fact
23:30 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-01-30 asciilifeform: would help to get the 'ham radio' / mesh network / btc-over-pigeon system now, rather than when it becomes the only possible means of running the network.
23:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 14:29:04 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ham radio has various strange traditions of 'discuss only x,y,z', so perhaps not best model here
23:31 asciilifeform see also
23:31 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-05-02 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: Shame encryption on Amateur radio frequencies is a crime << eventually, u.s. folks who want genuine net will need to commit this - or some other - crime.
23:31 verisimilitude Some people sneer at me for using the Internet so much. What would I do without it? I'd read books, unlike they. They would suffer more than I without an Internet.
23:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the 1st casualty of any kinda respectable collapse(tm) is the leisure to read the books (or net etc)
23:34 verisimilitude Why would the US start doing things respectably then?
23:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: elaborate ?
23:35 verisimilitude It was a joke.
23:35 asciilifeform verisimilitude: joak needs to run on heads other than author's to work
23:35 verisimilitude I disagree.
23:36 verisimilitude Anyway, I don't know which is worse: collapse, or another fifty years of vile and demoralizing filth.
23:37 asciilifeform 'horror without end, or a horrible end'(tm)
23:37 verisimilitude Yes.
23:38 verisimilitude An ancestor once told me he was glad to be dying soon, so he wouldn't see the horrors to come.
23:38 * asciilifeform once remarked 'grandfather was lucky to die in '90'
23:43 asciilifeform to return upstack -- there's precious little in the way of an audience for 'machines for collapse'. rich folx -- who could actually make the ball roll -- seem preoccupied with moving to bananistans (where will have to learn to like bananas to exclusion of all else; or, if luck fails, eaten to supplement diet of somebody who doesn't) ; those not rich -- generally preoccupied with moar mundane things, e.g. how to pay ren
23:43 asciilifeform t and heating bill at same time
23:45 asciilifeform the ~complete lack of a detectable interest in e.g. trb among 'mega-hodlers' already speaks volumes re their intelligence.
23:45 asciilifeform ( go an' try to sell'em on 'bitcoin can and should continue to work without the telecom grid' if they aint even interested in 'bitcoin can and should continue to work' , lol )
23:48 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086275 << would e.g. ftp make moar sense ? or what's the implication ?
23:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 17:58:56 verisimilitude: HTTP over Pest makes no goddamn sense.
23:49 asciilifeform or , lemme guess, only a yet-undefined magick protocol on a yet-unwritten ideal os, would 'make sense', lol
23:50 * asciilifeform suspects that verisimilitude is dead set on emulating the legendary death of archimedes -- while forgetting that the latter in fact had built a # of working items outta avail. parts prior to losing his head
23:53 verisimilitude A scheme for ``bare'' documents over Pest is more sensible is all.
23:54 verisimilitude I'm going to try to build things worth a damn before I die, asciilifeform, and don't fault me for it.
23:54 asciilifeform verisimilitude: how's it matter precisely how one drives the rx/tx of the 'bare' ? seems to asciilifeform that http'd work just as readily as irc currently worx for the local end of chat
23:55 verisimilitude I'm loathe to mention it, but even Gopher over Pest would be better.
23:55 verisimilitude It's very simple, unlike HTTP.
23:55 asciilifeform ftp even simpler
23:55 verisimilitude Oh, how nice, Gopher over Pest.
23:55 verisimilitude A gopher is a pest.
23:56 verisimilitude TFTP may be.
23:56 asciilifeform doesn't strike asciilifeform as terribly important how the file movement is handled on local end
23:56 verisimilitude On the local end, no.
23:56 asciilifeform you want some means for browsing avail. material before req'ing a dload
23:57 asciilifeform any of http, ftp, gopher, etc. would work (tho afaik difficult nao to find browser that'd eat gopher; some even lack support for ftp nao)
23:57 verisimilitude Did I misunderstand something, or were it HTTP requests carried over Pest messages?
23:57 asciilifeform nah, why wouldja do that
23:57 verisimilitude Exactly my point.
23:57 verisimilitude So, I misunderstood.
23:57 asciilifeform the sane thing would be for it to play similar role to irc in current pestrons
23:57 asciilifeform i.e. present strictly on local end
23:58 verisimilitude I've no comment, now that I understand.
23:58 asciilifeform ... strictly as glue for existing softs
23:58 asciilifeform aite
23:59 verisimilitude By the by, I don't discuss it much, because I know it doesn't interest those here much, but the MMC does exist and does work. I'm made at least a little work towards my goals.
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