Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-03-12 | 2019-03-14 → ↓
00:45 feedbot http://bimbo.club/2019/03/things-that-happened-last-month/ << Bimbo.Club -- Things that happened last month.
~ 4 hours 46 minutes ~
05:31 spyked mircea_popescu et al: http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128290
05:34 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901621 <-- iirc they already have (too many?) servers residing in ro, might be why they don't accept any new ones
05:34 a111 Logged on 2019-03-12 23:17 trinque: http://www.routing-com.undernet.org/ << lol, romania specifically banned!
05:37 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901666 <-- added this to the list and will prioritize if it becomes an urgent matter
05:37 a111 Logged on 2019-03-12 23:41 mircea_popescu: fwis, trinque already got one being tortured for the past six months ; depending on other workload mebbe BingoBoingo or spyked feel like putting one up also (but very much do not fall into the tarpit of chasing butterflies, from one to the next and catching none, fellas).
05:45 spyked returning briefly to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901372 : back in the early 2000s, most file transfers in ro were done via local 'dc++' hubs, the largest hosted in uni politehnica of bucharest campus. wasn't all that horrible, with the exception that orcs had no notion of wot, so they were all suprised when police started raiding the dorms (accompanied by "anti-piracy campaign" orchestra, of course)
05:45 a111 Logged on 2019-03-11 16:29 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901354 << spyked - i was thinking, 'let's make torrent', then realized that torrent is some (afaik) largely unexplored heathenware, possibly due for a civilized replacement. might be worth expanding on if anyone has free hands.
~ 15 minutes ~
06:00 spyked (to elaborate: high-speed internet "outside of ro" was accessible mainly through uni pipes until at least cca 2003 or so; in particular in upb, most of the networking infrastructure projects were at the time due to one eduard andrei, meanwhile forgotten by the interwebs)
~ 3 hours 16 minutes ~
09:17 asciilifeform 'Welcome to freenode. To protect the network all new connections will be scanned for vulnerabilities' << lol!!
09:19 asciilifeform spyked: seems like the joke is on the folx who shot the shoemaker , who ~maybe~-sent police if he thought you had particular kind of bits on paper , and then spread legs for nato reich, who send police if they think you have ~another~ kind of bits, on yer hdd..
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~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
10:54 mircea_popescu spyked that's exactly why, undernet is almost entirely ro-based.
10:54 mircea_popescu who knew that the 50% problem exists in the general!!11
11:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform they shot the shoemaker, ironically enough, because he was excessively like me for their taste. their principal objections, unvoiced but truthfully and authentically reconstructed, were in order that 1) he sent them to do manual labour, in complete disdain of their self-identification ("we're intellectuals!!!") ; 2) he was unimpressed by the rest of their http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ hallucinatio
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11:04 mircea_popescu ns, to the degree of not providing them with the requisite aspirational goods to enact the pretense and 3) he was ~critical~. there's even a moment at the "meeting with the writers" where he points out that he's not really taking them seriously, but maybe one day they manage to build an intellectual system that can take his criticism.
11:04 mircea_popescu guy got shot for realism.
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11:12 mircea_popescu "Tov. Nicolae Ceauşescu: Încă cu scriitorii n-am făcut o şedinţă ca să critic cum ştiu eu. Dar vă pun în vedere că o să ne pregătim pentru aceasta." literally.
11:13 mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1PzKG/?raw=true << whole thing, for the curious.
11:15 mircea_popescu the only truthful expression of history is to say nicolae ceausescu was the first mayogender victim.
11:16 mircea_popescu didn't love the hippos for the special and unique snowflake of a woman they really were ~deep~ inside.
11:18 mircea_popescu even MORE ironically, one can quite say [www.stirimondene.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/alina_mungiu_pippidi_10197000.jpg][this] was the face of the opposition. (chick married that dork, hence the double name.)
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11:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901718 << that's exactly my reading of the events. ( and dun fughet to add, he, ohnoez, made'em pay the debt!111 )
11:19 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 15:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they shot the shoemaker, ironically enough, because he was excessively like me for their taste. their principal objections, unvoiced but truthfully and authentically reconstructed, were in order that 1) he sent them to do manual labour, in complete disdain of their self-identification ("we're intellectuals!!!") ; 2) he was unimpressed by the rest of their http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ hallucinatio
11:21 asciilifeform tov. c was quite unlike mircea_popescu in 1 important way , tho -- he neglected the disease until was unmanageable, was - near as i can tell - pretty soft (vs, e.g., stalin), very little 'prophylactic' depantsuiting in his reign
11:21 mircea_popescu (remarkably pantsuit, the fat orc, btw. synchronicity to a t, including "russian secret services!!!" wank while it was still fashionable in washington, last narrative gasp before teh dnc died.
11:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head.
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11:22 asciilifeform nowadays any mcd-eater can become this, eh. but as i understand then it took some pull, to wangle the calories
11:24 mircea_popescu the communications breakdown during the ~only almost-meaningful attempt during "trial" is imo relevant. looky : http://trilema.com/2011/procesul-ceausescu/#selection-665.0-665.87
11:24 * asciilifeform had in fact read the trial log
11:24 mircea_popescu the guy points out that almost all villages got bakers' built. this is factually true, and important -- gotta understand romania is TODAY, and STILL, the one country in europe where 1/3 or so of schools have no running water.
11:25 mircea_popescu when it joined the eu, the % of barnhouses in the eu incresed like 30 fold.
11:25 mircea_popescu so yes, the building of bakers' in ~all villages, so the dorks can have day-old bread rather than week-old bread, is an important point.
11:26 mircea_popescu and to him, this makes sense. "what sort of moron would you have to be, to not understand than 100`000 bakers' for 100`000 places that had no bakers' since aurelian's withdrawal is way the fuck a bigger deal than 5 homos upset because nobody is using the right zhernouns."
11:26 mircea_popescu and sure, it does make sense. but THEY make no sense to him whatsoever.
11:27 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head. << Well... "Dallas"
11:27 mircea_popescu and didn't, for 30-odd years.
11:27 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo right ?
11:29 BingoBoingo The fixation on one piece of outsider media is a thing in the German Peasant tradition
11:29 mircea_popescu so yes, the principal driver behind " very little 'prophylactic' depantsuiting in his reign" (which is factual) was... very little capacity to conceptualize the pantsuitism. because of the EXACT http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901577 thought process (though he's not nearly as elegant in his thinking, nor did he have enough sense to keep a fucking blog, so as to GET this elegant.)
11:29 a111 Logged on 2019-03-12 22:09 asciilifeform: an asciilifeform who had never touched microshit, i suspect, would be a better man than asciilifeform who did..
11:30 mircea_popescu ceausescu who didn't touch pantsuitism was certainly a better deadman than the imaginary one who had.
11:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: through my (admittedly inexpert) lens, d00d loox like archaetypical lion trainer who served up many a cookie but neglected entirely the whip
11:31 mircea_popescu this is not true, plenty of dorks ended up in prison.
11:31 mircea_popescu the problem is -- he tended to imprison the dorks he understood more than the dorks he didn't.
11:32 BingoBoingo Like Franco probably just wanted to ranch and watch the cows, but guild is house with that oil wealth
11:32 mircea_popescu and he systematically didn't understand the ~only set of dorks who belonged in jail, as a sort of public service, for re-realization.
11:32 asciilifeform i suspect he was working from stalin, but not the actual one, but own mental phanto
11:32 asciilifeform m thereof
11:32 asciilifeform who sent to gulag 'for joke'
11:32 mircea_popescu and this because he ~opted not to~ (unawaredly, but just as opted) through the exact process of "this is too stupid to understand". it is too stupid to understand ~deliberately~ and FOR THAT PURPOSE.
11:33 mircea_popescu there's a somewhere in the log /me explains how this all works.
11:33 asciilifeform ( where actual one, sent in '37-'38 mostly folx who were the most disgusting bootlicks, fattest apparatchiks, they continued to send! him! letters! with 'tov. stalin, to whom i remain most loyal servant..' etc )
11:34 mircea_popescu i can see it, "worked for stalin coincidentally, had ceased working by 70s". notwithstanding that the EXACT picture perfect rendition of said bootlick : http://trilema.com/2010/la-moartea-lui-adrian-paunescu/ (a fellow who i declared dead on trilema a week before he actuallty died, ro press "omitted to notice", by the way, a week later, when the "suprising event" occured)
11:35 mircea_popescu to this day i remain most proud of this particular instance, out of all of trilema's time-bending achievements.
11:35 mircea_popescu people even comment "wtf, he's not dead" and shit.
11:36 asciilifeform i gotta bite, an' ask, how is ~that~ bit of magic maintained...? do they have an eliza running, to post as him ? or how else anyone thinks 'not dead'
11:37 mircea_popescu but anyway -- disgustingly fat, yes, pinnacle of asskissing, yes, sent weekly letters "tov. shoemaker, to whom i remain most loyal servant" in prison, yes.
11:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform he died november 5th. article was oct 30th.
11:37 asciilifeform aa aaaa
11:39 mircea_popescu was retroactived into "oh, he had been sick", but this is both factually untrue and completely unknown at the time. in the sense "obama is president of china" is completely unknown at this time.
11:39 asciilifeform re 'understand' -- loox like c not only managed to avoid 'understand', but also somehow surrounded himself with viziers who ditto ?
11:39 mircea_popescu yes.
11:40 mircea_popescu it is very difficult to surround self with viziers who understand what you don't. those are called co-caesars in rome.
11:40 asciilifeform aint the whole point of a vizier, to handle the 'i can either king or learn c++' problem ?
11:40 mircea_popescu not exactly. there must be a thread, uniting things to the center of the world. if there's no thread, there has to be a change. if the thread's valid but interrupted at center you have to recenter.
11:41 asciilifeform i dun think he had the 'if they aint retarded, they will co-caesar and eventually eat me' problem -- consider pacepa.
11:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform do me a favour, let's go through an what-if.
11:41 asciilifeform ( who yes later miami, but spent good, what, 3 decades of a++ work )
11:41 * asciilifeform listens
11:42 mircea_popescu suppose we're all us, but we're not us in the following sense(s) : a) we're all married, in the sovok style ; b) we all have sons, about g_l's age ; c) it comes to light that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-07#1900877
11:42 a111 Logged on 2019-03-07 23:18 asciilifeform: buncha kids, mostly of local party elite, seekritly sewed themselves some semblance of ss uniform, and raised swastica flag at night on city hall; then marched to cemetery and laid half a tonne of flowers on old white army graves
11:42 mircea_popescu now you tell what would mp do.
11:43 asciilifeform i'd expect it'd be same as what stalin did in this exact case
11:43 mircea_popescu mno, i'm not stalin.
11:43 mircea_popescu we're just a buncha officers yes.
11:43 asciilifeform send the sad sons off to the front, the less braindamaged ones come back, the rest 'die the death of heroes'
11:43 asciilifeform in their stead, appoint to the succession some functional folx
11:44 mircea_popescu mnope.
11:44 asciilifeform then i'm stumped, 1941-45 was my 1 crib sheet re problem
11:45 mircea_popescu a) i would ~ignore~ the sons. you've seen me do it before, yet it's not obvious to you. death of heroes belongs to they showing some promise, why muddy it up. what if i mixed some mud in your cocktail ? i would not insult the heroes-in-baking by this addition.
11:46 asciilifeform well gorby et al ignored, where could've instead sent'em to 'hero' in afghan
11:46 asciilifeform see how it worked for'em ?
11:46 mircea_popescu b) i would deliver ~the wife~, naked other than for being beaten black and blue, straight out of the trunk into the courtyard of her ancestral home, and publicly explain to her father that if i ever hear of any of their intolerable kin he'll hear obituaries.
11:46 asciilifeform ivan iv used this algo
11:47 asciilifeform ended up with vacant throne and coupla decades of kakobreklas
11:47 mircea_popescu it is the correct algo. cut off the lost node and pressure the last conneected node.
11:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform correct algo comes with no guarantee of fitness for particular purpose.
11:47 asciilifeform he ran outta nodes tho, cuz no harem
11:47 asciilifeform afaik that there's the 'hole through which night came'
11:47 mircea_popescu yes well. the word for that is manalone.
11:48 mircea_popescu "chitlins, what do they call single-node trees in the republic ?"
11:48 asciilifeform i gotta agree with mircea_popescu re item -- king with single-engined harem is like boeing on 1 motor
11:48 mircea_popescu but see, one needn't be stalin. officers in question had all they needed, did not apply.
11:49 mircea_popescu also very effectual at quelling the female will-to-spawn. "do you understand what will happen if you make me an idiot ?"
11:51 asciilifeform i still dunget fully why ivan did not enharem. he had all the 'ducks lined up', boiled in oil good % of the folx in any position to constructively object, even ran experiment where half the kingdom was a personal human-hunt reservation, to test.
11:51 asciilifeform the obv. next step, seems , is to actually use that fucking crown
11:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901730
11:51 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 15:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dood was quite unsophisticated, had this very... well, fundamentally a peasant's worldview, deeply optimistic and over-inclined to fit-in-head.
11:51 asciilifeform gotta be
11:51 mircea_popescu "why should i be bothered with a bunch of them". henry also serial-monogamized, rather than make them eat eachj other out.
11:52 asciilifeform tho i must add, unlike shoemaker, ivan was a thinkin' man, spent good % of his life in his (lost to indiana jones warehouse) megalibrary, an' playin' chess etc with courtiers, scheming how to fuck english queen, and so forth
11:53 mircea_popescu comprehending is a draw on mental energy ; comprehending women perhaps the largest ; unschooled orcs perceive this issue whereby the costs mount exponentially and the marginal benefit is nil (you can only fuck one hole at a timwe anyways!!).
11:53 mircea_popescu needless to say, orc thought is dumb.
11:53 BingoBoingo That Xtian thing's a helluva shackle
11:53 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: d00d was in a 9000x better pos than e.g. henry viii , to make 'own church, with hookers, an' blackjack' and fuckerryone
11:53 mircea_popescu this is true.
11:53 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: But he didn't
11:54 mircea_popescu this is also true.
11:54 BingoBoingo And neither did Henry
11:54 asciilifeform it is therefore much moar of a puzzler, why didn't
11:54 asciilifeform recall that ivan was caesaropope
11:54 BingoBoingo Henry simply did a weak XT attack on the church. Did not hang all of the pedotards
11:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform wasn't ivan raised by a regency, in the manner the prince of talleyrand-perigord also describes, "as a vagrant or the poorest of the poor" ?
11:55 asciilifeform henry had to '51%' his church into programmability, ivan -- not, was already in pos to 'from nao on you pray to my left foot'
11:56 asciilifeform regency yes, re the rest i have nfi
11:57 asciilifeform throne at 15.
11:57 mircea_popescu yes, but his mother got poisoned as a little boy, and up until 15 he was... a peasant ?
11:57 asciilifeform afaik moar of palace hostage than 'peasant'
11:59 mircea_popescu i suppose matter should remain open for he who can be arsed to read on it ; that's the best i have for a theory in the meanwhile.
11:59 asciilifeform he ~did~ iirc spend moar time than is healthy around priests
12:00 asciilifeform sorta how the classical education worked there.
12:01 asciilifeform i.e. take in some god swill with erry spoonful of latin, greek
12:01 mircea_popescu i don't imagine the concept of "god" is per se harmful. greeks also had, and various others.
12:02 asciilifeform the xtian ver. seems to be considerably moar rotting of brain
12:02 asciilifeform what with god as puppeteer etc
12:03 asciilifeform greek gods read rather moar like the americans' favourite 'superheroes', humanlike.
12:04 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> greek gods read rather moar like the americans' favourite 'superheroes', humanlike. << Except better because they fucked hooker and played proto blackjack
12:04 mircea_popescu it is quite the case usistani "superheroes" are mcdonaldization of greek pantheon, yeah.
12:04 asciilifeform how else.
12:05 diana_coman eh, re ceausescu, they first killed whatever elite there still was and then they got all critical and whatnot; lasati
12:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: plox to expand ?
12:09 asciilifeform revisiting upstack re ivan and his missing harem -- suleyman is even moar of a case of wtf, had not only correct 'church', but working harem, and then 'wrapped it around telephone pole' when roxy
12:14 mircea_popescu suleyman had the worst harem possible, his mom picked it.
12:16 asciilifeform point
12:16 asciilifeform tho this simply moves the recursion, ~somebody~ up the line had to let things get to this
12:18 diana_coman asciilifeform, I suppose one of those days I'll sink the time in and properly write-it all up and at least be done with it; I knew people who were not allowed to study at university because of "poor background" meaning that there parents had university studies; I also knew people who were pushed to the university because of "good background" although they did not have either inclination or desire for it; and leaving aside how this is to my
12:18 diana_coman mind ~exactly the same as current "equality!!!" quotas and whatnots, I consider that the moment one does this systematically, there is right to complain that he ends up with idiots
12:19 diana_coman their* parents, of course
12:19 asciilifeform diana_coman: sounds like replay of early sovok
12:19 asciilifeform 'социально чуждые элементы'
12:20 asciilifeform diana_coman: i can't get behind the usual reaction where 'noshit, this is retarded, what didja expect' tho. how the fuck ~else~ do you properly purge an oldregime wot ?
12:20 diana_coman for completeness, I can say that I know from direct experience both force-peasants-to-town-into-big-houses and vanish in the night for having had too much wealth beforehand; none of it (in either case) is an achievement as far as I can see
12:21 asciilifeform i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art.
12:22 diana_coman asciilifeform, if you are into purging, at least purge the whole lot and be done with it; this sort of "let's cut the elite and then we grow a new one out of our ass" is stupid
12:22 asciilifeform and yes it's quite destructive. but rly not moar so than the properly-dynastic oh so civilized west euros ~thermonuking their kingdoms in ww1 for perfectly nonjacobin 'great game' reasons
12:23 mircea_popescu diana_coman what, the horses ? the "killed elite" thing would be what, i gh duca ? (and guess what, digging for that reference i also ran into -- apparently there's a piece re the afore mentioned prince)
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12:23 diana_coman also re stale bread vs new bread I disagree mircea_popescu ; people used to make their OWN bread; not stale
12:23 * diana_coman has to run, will bbl
12:23 asciilifeform new elite grows always either from arse or from foreign conquest, from where else, martians aint about to parachute one in
12:23 mircea_popescu any kind of ro elite was long gone by the time ceausescu came in, he gets to hide behind ye olde "greaua mostenire" trope.
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12:24 mircea_popescu diana_coman but ~which people~ ? whole point of industrialization is moving from the traditional to the modern. is the idea that ceausescu is somehow personally responsible for the fact ?
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12:25 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art. << Well there is the US Socialist Disney block by block reformat algo as well
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12:25 asciilifeform e.g. i have a (long-dead) distant kinsman whose father stayed alive in '20s strictly cuz he burned his swiss diploma. pretty sure ~erryone in sovokistans has a similar tale.
12:25 mircea_popescu in any case, you will notice that we ourselves are purging this supposed "elite" and growing one, literally, from our arse.
12:26 mircea_popescu and i daresay that the thing is working admirably well ; but not nearly as well as the sovok mechanism did in fact work -- the imperial officers would never have beaten the wehrmacht, for one thing.
12:27 mircea_popescu is the only distinction that i don't actually hang the various negrated morons ? because i can swear it is to me a merely cosmetic matter, i would not lift finger one to stop it if they were in fact beheaded for it, and stalin did MORE than me in this vein, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-02#1877763
12:27 a111 Logged on 2018-12-02 00:07 asciilifeform: there's a preserved communique from stalin to hrusch, where the latter served up umpteenth list of meat grinder candidates and stalin replied 'rejected, have measure, idiot'
12:27 asciilifeform sovok , fwiw, properly poured cement over the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-03#1611080 thing
12:27 a111 Logged on 2017-02-03 05:29 phf: my mom had one of those "papa escaped the purges by burning all paperwork but life got tough when they took our governess" piano teachers, who would lament about being forced to teach peasants and brown folk, not on racial grounds as much as "you have to have a bidet in your house for 3 generations, before you can touch a piano"
12:28 asciilifeform lots and lotsa grade-a folx , literally outta the mud, and straight into 'take country from wooden plough to thermonuke and moon buggy'
12:29 * mircea_popescu is vaguely curious if a century hence there will be tears shed over "all the destruction". someone's gonna cry for systemd, what.
12:30 mircea_popescu "but mp, it worked. and we loved it". at least the horses were alive, that merits something. "but our figments and hallucinations -- just as alive to us!!!"
12:30 asciilifeform 'bout the same as we cry for the church derps voltaire poured cement on
12:30 mircea_popescu lotta that in france.
12:31 mircea_popescu anyway, back to suleyman -- it is ~conceivable~, and definitely an excellent premise for an umberto eco-like novel, that suleyman gave up his harem to try and produce a harem generator that didn't suck.
12:31 mircea_popescu "roxy you dumb whore, get your sons women like you, not like your dumb mother."
12:32 asciilifeform eh if there's reservations of profoundly touched tards where they cry for the 'matriarchate' aboriginals, wainot also this.
12:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: a++ idea for an eco.
12:32 mircea_popescu i'd read it.
12:32 * asciilifeform would defo read
12:32 mircea_popescu even though i know how it ends.
12:33 asciilifeform all ecos are where you know how ends.
12:33 asciilifeform goes with the genre.
12:35 mircea_popescu she hangs herself, over sheer despair, at the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-15#1670676 coming out of her.
12:35 a111 Logged on 2017-06-15 14:44 mircea_popescu: dude what is with this djb-ing sexually ambiguous 20something street urchins
12:35 asciilifeform sorta why asciilifeform goes in for the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-02#1877828 take on the histories
12:35 a111 Logged on 2018-12-02 16:06 asciilifeform: nao, on other hand, 'cyclical histories' where 'confederacy of dunces' gangs up and dethrones their betters, and then whole edifice turns to shit, from shit grows sumthing new, etc. -- this i can buy, we're quite evidently in the trough of that sinusoid just nao
12:35 mircea_popescu "i made chair, for man to sit in, with my hands as directed by my head, and an endless supply of stirpituri & tirituri, with my cunt, as directed by the cock going into it. WOE IS ME!"
12:37 asciilifeform ( recall, the not long ago thrd where a: 'cultures are born, live, senesce, and die, like organisms' m:'poppycock' a:'best i got that makes any sense of the sinusoid')
12:38 mircea_popescu the qualiy of your summaries recommends you to writing on bimbo.club.
12:38 asciilifeform lol
12:50 asciilifeform upstack, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901856 << i suspect this is red herring. it is 'institution' making a stab at regaining lost territory. asciilifeform's suspicion is that if 'history struggle', it aint between so much specifically 'new and old elite' as b/w human-man ( who wakes up and knows that he was put upon the earth to cut atom, build harem, etc ) and beetle-man, who 'knows' that he was born to eat from trough prikok
12:50 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 16:25 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i dun have a better algo to give for how to reformat a cultural hdd , afaik that's still the state of the art. << Well there is the US Socialist Disney block by block reformat algo as well
12:50 asciilifeform e-style and 'let nuffin happen', ohnoez, 'happening could get in the way'
12:51 asciilifeform the dichotomy amply documented by mircea_popescu & other folx
12:51 asciilifeform i.e. the 2 contenders in the ring, are man and pig
12:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, as i understand, maps the 'pig' to 'female', but the model is quite same, this is moar of a label on the knobs
12:56 mircea_popescu it is a constant complaint of the actual females, this. and one i always agree with -- when they bring it. because yes, there's nothing fundamentally female about the pig.
12:56 asciilifeform when weighs 200kg, difficult for non-zoologist to distinguish boar and sow, is where the similarity.
12:57 mircea_popescu but there ~IS~ something fundamentally piggish about the contemporaneous female, if the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901725 illustration didn't bring it into focus.
12:57 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 15:18 mircea_popescu: even MORE ironically, one can quite say [www.stirimondene.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/alina_mungiu_pippidi_10197000.jpg][this] was the face of the opposition. (chick married that dork, hence the double name.)
12:57 mircea_popescu oink-oinkelite.
12:57 asciilifeform the boars very similar.
12:58 asciilifeform hence BingoBoingo's sharp 'third sex, mayo' observation
12:59 BingoBoingo Which I merely captured from the fat people hate movement
12:59 asciilifeform erry 'hate movement' is a cluster of lymphocytes around a very real irritant to organism.
13:00 mircea_popescu well, maybe not every, but plenty of contemporraneous ones. (see ? again with the "is pig female or is female pig" conundrum. captive in history as we are...)
13:00 asciilifeform pig, i suspect, when of prikoke mass, is simply pig.
13:02 mircea_popescu consider the traditional antisemitism -- a cluster of lumphocytes around a very real problem, yes, but SUBJECTIVE PROBLEM OF THE JEWS. not irritating "the organism" as such in any sense, beyond the very obvious an' deeply human "you folk can't be this fucking stupid!" thing
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13:03 asciilifeform there is such a thing as autoimmune reaction.
13:03 mircea_popescu i guess this is a workable forcing of the metaphore.
13:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform amusingly, do you recall all the wank re cern cyclotron, "what if it brings about end of world ?!?!?!"
13:05 asciilifeform i do
13:05 mircea_popescu next time, they ain't losing the "debate".
13:05 mircea_popescu if there's even gonna be a next time. i doubt it.
13:05 asciilifeform and then iirc it broke down and 'moar studies needed' an' 'give us another $trillion of printola' and all was quiet
13:07 asciilifeform sorta why those thread where , e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1501221 , http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1501380
13:07 a111 Logged on 2016-07-11 16:29 asciilifeform: fundamental reason being, a gigantic machine employs and merit-washes 1,000,001 mediocrities
13:07 a111 Logged on 2016-07-11 17:14 asciilifeform: the whole field now consists of 'gimme' artists.
13:07 asciilifeform the mega-cyclotron is not an instrument of physics, but of f35-style printing press diversion.
13:08 asciilifeform whether physics-flavoured or wunderwaffen-flavoured or 'end poverty'(tm)(r)-flavoured, they're all quite alike
13:09 asciilifeform recall story of where asciilifeform ~personally~ described to schwartz how to cut adelberger 100% out of the loop for under what mircea_popescu's bmw costs.
13:10 mircea_popescu ima not bother to reiterate the period thread.
13:10 asciilifeform is wai we have log linx!11
13:10 asciilifeform so dun have to replay.
13:11 asciilifeform but will add that i'd have easier time believing the 'physics picked the low-hanging fruit and now you NEED synchrophasotron for $trillion to do ANY' yarn , if it weren't a balloon fulla fart that i can on occasion puncture with fingernail without breaking a sweat
13:15 mircea_popescu dunno argument was "low hanging fruit". they wanna see what happens at high energy. the only way to see is to make. approximately situation of "when it comes to cooking, don't have to order out. alf has this method of making polenta, works well!" "and if i want lobster ?" "well then you gotta buy a lobster". getting indignant over how "wanting lobster only serves to drive an impossible wedge between budget and mariscos mercha
13:15 mircea_popescu nt resulting in ordering out" is a little shakily footed.
13:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: argument is not that you ought not to want to 'try it at high energy'
13:16 mircea_popescu there can genuinely arise the situation where people who aren't necessarily trying to find their way to arby's / olive garden / we are nevertheless sick of polenta and saving to buy a lobster.
13:17 asciilifeform argument is that the field went to stuff head up own arse, and took convenient excuse to 'you now NEED the high priest machine, or you aint in physics' to incaize
13:18 asciilifeform !#s xray lens
13:18 a111 1 result for "xray lens", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xray%20lens
13:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-04#1884412 <
13:18 a111 Logged on 2019-01-04 17:15 asciilifeform: in other olds, apparently i slept through this, but in early 2000s some ru d00d actually built a ~non-grazing~ lens for xray. for pennies, at that.
13:19 asciilifeform ^ fiddycents. and didn't need 9000 jobsworths, but 1 ru d00d.
13:19 asciilifeform and genuinely newphysics.
13:20 asciilifeform those lobsters, mircea_popescu , cost 0, they are already invisibly in erry kitchen.
13:20 asciilifeform like napoleon's 'there is a marshall's baton in erry private's rucksack' item.
13:22 mircea_popescu yeah well.
13:22 asciilifeform 'but asciilifeform , if you want lobster, you gotta build a $9000b fishing fleet' 'mno, here's 1 from your own dryer lint trap, and it can bend xrays and modexp in constant time, naowat'
13:23 asciilifeform 'not fair'
13:27 asciilifeform the lhc aint an instrument of physics, simply from the fact that the people who control access to it, and the catamites they grant it to, aint physicists ! the actual physicists are drilling little holes in aluminum , in kitchens.
13:27 asciilifeform sorta like the actual bitcoin maintainers, are here, and not mit.
13:29 asciilifeform exactly like the 'actual chemists' nao, are the people who are looking for simpler syntheses of meth and 'ecstasy' out of not-yet-banned hardware shop crapola, and not the monkeys who sit all day doing http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-07#1900867
13:29 a111 Logged on 2019-03-07 21:49 asciilifeform: 'enantiomeric' patent -- cheapest trick in that box
13:30 asciilifeform when a wot (whichever wot, physics, austria-hungary, shitoshi's, etc - dun matter) makes the transition to 'institution', the ~actual life~ is definitionally to be found ~outside~ of it
13:31 asciilifeform inside -- pig 'life'.
13:31 * asciilifeform bbl: actual work
~ 16 minutes ~
13:48 BingoBoingo http://trilema.com/2012/lets-dig-a-little-deeper-into-this-entire-deflation-problem/#selection-69.0-81.360 << In not quite mariscos, a number of local grocers here carry frozen Vietnamese farmed catfish.
13:48 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/03/china-makes-humanitarian-move-to-aid-venezuala-restore-electricity-amid-dam-sabotage/ << Qntra -- China Makes Humanitarian Move To Aid Venezuala Restore Electricity Amid Dam Sabotage
~ 25 minutes ~
14:13 BingoBoingo Meanwhile in Spain: https://archive.is/sQ5Pr
14:14 BingoBoingo "La misma impotencia, o más, sienten las chicas del CB Guadalaviar. Ganaron la liga femenina la temporada pasada. El otro día perdieron 50-4 contra un rival masculino. Hemos pasado de ser campeonas de liga el año pasado a sentirnos humilladas. Es un chasco de competición, todo esto desmotiva, porque todos los partidos acabamos por los suelos con golpes."
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~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
15:21 BingoBoingo https://archive.is/Tfqyw << "Varias calles de la Ciudad Vieja permanecen cortadas y con desvíos luego de que varios vidrios de edificios de la zona estallaran con los vientos que se registraron en las últimas horas." But what did the wind blow? "En la madrugada de este miércoles un vidrio del décimo piso de la Torre Ejecutiva" Ah, the Presidential office tower got its 10th floor windows blown out. Not by a bomb. This Angloph
15:21 BingoBoingo one America. This terrorist was the weather!
15:25 BingoBoingo And in this busy local news day, the new criminal code in action https://www.subrayado.com.uy/compro-objetos-robados-y-la-justicia-lo-condena-hacer-100-tortafritas-y-donarlas-n528679
~ 29 minutes ~
15:54 feedbot http://bimbo.club/2019/03/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-viii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part VIII.
16:08 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901854 -> myeah, he gets to hide behind that indeed.
16:08 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 16:23 mircea_popescu: any kind of ro elite was long gone by the time ceausescu came in, he gets to hide behind ye olde "greaua mostenire" trope.
16:08 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish"
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16:08 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 16:24 mircea_popescu: diana_coman but ~which people~ ? whole point of industrialization is moving from the traditional to the modern. is the idea that ceausescu is somehow personally responsible for the fact ?
16:10 asciilifeform diana_coman: historic inland peasant may well have easily born and died without eating a fish, tho
16:10 asciilifeform that , imho, is what to compare to
16:11 diana_coman and that's valid for the 1000 bakeries too; I suppose one can argue that it's still an achievement to have bakeries with no bread than to have no bakeries and stale bread but I don't buy it; and note that in the 80's the latest brightest idea (in the same vein, all hail!) was to further do this sort of great "improvement", to wit the communal "neighbourhood kitchen" to get rid of such waste as having individual kitchens in every hruscheba
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16:11 diana_coman (not to mention it's easier without, no?) ; circul foamei
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16:11 diana_coman asciilifeform, so having a fish shop without fish is better because he at least knows now that he should have a fish or what?
16:12 diana_coman ftr funnily enough precisely fish was very much missing from ro diet to such extent that yes, there were slogans "nici o masa fara peste"
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16:13 diana_coman to get people to eat fish ("no meal without fish" )
~ 19 minutes ~
16:32 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901720 -> maybe; but this sort of "it's enough to make the buildings and name them as to what they are meant to be, because surely then the content will magically appear" doesn't seem much realism to me, quite on the contrary.
16:32 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 15:04 mircea_popescu: guy got shot for realism.
16:36 diana_coman si in sfarsit, ca sa citez din profetul care le stia bag seama inca de mult dinainte ca doar nici nu-s noi: "Se cladeste un mare stabiliment artistic, un teatru, de exemplu. De ce? fiindca un stat modern are, intre alte organe de cultura, si astfel de stabilimente. Ei? cauti artisti - ia-i de unde nu sunt. Iti trebuie literatura - nu exista. Iti trebuie public - publicul nu vine la exhibitiile d-tale. Ce-ti mai ramane de facut in aceasta c
16:36 diana_coman ladire, pentru care ai varsat sume colosale si unde ai sa cheltuiesti anual paragrafe anume? Nu-ti ramane alta decat sa faci macar politica."
16:39 asciilifeform diana_coman: i must add also that i went for a week to timis, and for 5 days went past fish market, each time finding there 0 fish. apparently shooting the shoemaker did not fix..
16:39 asciilifeform whod'vethunkit, 'communism cancelled' dun automagically transform an orcistan into 1950s manhattan.
16:40 asciilifeform it sounds retarded, but in ru there was this genuinely large mass of people who thought 'oh hey now we will live like the west(tm)(r)'
16:40 diana_coman with the added bonus that Ibraileanu in 1909 cites from the same piece of Caragiale (Politica si cultura) with the comment that Caragiale was the most acerbic critic of... "liberalism" (the quotations marks are Ibraileanu's) that is further explained as "partidul <<ros>>" aka the red party.
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16:42 diana_coman asciilifeform, that communism cancelled doesn't solve the problems is clear, at least for the very simple reason that the problems were there even before communism, sure, as it can be seen from the pieces above that are quite earlier than that.
16:42 asciilifeform does anyone recall old thrd where mircea_popescu linked to a youtube clip of some idiot kid smashing up ancient car that his father gave him, 'cuz not mercedes' ?
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16:42 asciilifeform ~that~ is how i see the killing of the shoemaker.
16:43 diana_coman I don't recall; but I'm sure that at/after the revolution in Romania the idea was quite the same
16:43 asciilifeform problems in the class of 'no fish' are orig. created by http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-13#920487 , yes
16:43 a111 Logged on 2014-11-13 23:14 asciilifeform: (king hunger is actually just an affiliate duke under king thermo)
16:43 asciilifeform poseidon did not deign to make fish get out of ocean, walk to village, and jump into mouth..
16:44 diana_coman asciilifeform, dunno; but take this re fish since you mentioned your experience in Timis; I can still remember when one found a rotten fish among the frozen "fish" with which communism improved one's diet forcibly.
16:45 asciilifeform oddly enuff 0 of this where asciilifeform lived, but then again it ~was~ by the sea
16:46 asciilifeform this kinda thing, 'would rather have no fish than rotten frozen', is presumably how ro ended up having to feed its horses to europistan as unlabeled mystery sausage when eurocrats banned horse on public road
16:46 asciilifeform peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term
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16:46 asciilifeform which is why stalin didn't bother to ask'em
16:47 asciilifeform shoemaker, near as i can tell, didn't press the point very hard
16:47 diana_coman you know, apparently I was several times unlucky in that - among other things - my hometown was/is an industrial town; which meant for instance that blackouts were very usual (because many powerful industrial consumers and they got priority) while from what I heard in non-industrial towns this wasn't really the case
16:48 asciilifeform diana_coman: i am pleased to inform, we have regular blackouts in washingtonistan, despite 0 industry ( combo of 'errybody has air conditioner' , summer, and 19th c.-style pole wiring - winter )
16:48 diana_coman asciilifeform, I think there what can be said is that it could have certainly be pushed even harder.
16:49 asciilifeform c ( or perhaps this ball belongs with dej ? ) maybe 'soft', or maybe thought could not afford to kill %% of his subjects, i do not presently know why not pushed.
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16:50 asciilifeform but elementarily factory, roads, etc. are built out of pile of kicking, screaming meat, not 'from money' or any similar. england had its stalinization in 18th c.
16:52 diana_coman asciilifeform, you know, that's the thing that popped at me as soon as I lived for any amount of time in the west: ffs those people do *of their own will and even paying money for* precisely the idiocies that I thought communism was to blame for. So in this sense, Ceausescu "ahead of his time" , marete realizari etc etc; I still think the direction totally wrong so pushing it further doesn't seem like a great achievement to me, that's all.
16:53 asciilifeform it is above asciilifeform's pay grade to say with what algo to industrialize a kingdom without mass engineered penury and a good helping of butchery for the folx who dun get message. afaik this problem has no known historic pill.
16:54 asciilifeform tho observe also, as soon as the butchery is removed , mentality sinks rapidly back into 'peasant', modern-day ameristani has exactly same relation with his auto as peasant -- horse
16:54 asciilifeform with the diff that auto is 100% powered by 'great inca', you cannot plant petrol inside 'field' in a washington flat to feed to it, nor breed a replacement for when dies
16:55 BingoBoingo Don't forget the unbutchered labor activists in the Southern Cone who will consider shuttering a Ford factory "a win for the people"
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16:56 diana_coman to my mind that's precisely the thing: it's not (or not only) that "screaming meat" but the fact that at the end of it, it's only a replacement with what is in fact an inferior, not a superior thing
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16:56 BingoBoingo "Samba sí, trabajo no"
16:56 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: is exactly what i meant as 'same relation as peasant to his horse', 'it is simply there'
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16:57 asciilifeform diana_coman: to paraphrase mao, the jury's still out on whether industry was in fact good deal vs horse an' plow
16:58 asciilifeform the catch is that it aint optional, ro, bulgaria, etc. cancelled their shoemakers, lost industry, and now becomes feed base for foreigners
16:58 asciilifeform just as e.g. ru became mineral market
16:59 BingoBoingo I'm becoming rather convinced the common man encounters a psychological failure mode if they aren't scratching the dirt to avoid starvation
16:59 asciilifeform on my admittedly short expedition i saw 5 dead factories , and 1 working -- little thing inside of much larger corpse ; and it made gears for bmw
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17:01 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901996 -> "it is simply there" was absolutely not the same relation I saw peasant-horse, no
17:01 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:56 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: is exactly what i meant as 'same relation as peasant to his horse', 'it is simply there'
17:01 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2011/jaful-si-economia/#selection-23.0-31.529 << apropos.
17:02 diana_coman asciilifeform, yes; the contention is whether there is any option in fact to create it out of nothing and moreover by someone who never saw it other than from a distance at best
17:03 asciilifeform diana_coman: in what sense was the attempt 'out of nothing' ?
17:04 asciilifeform e.g. ru, cn , jp , followed ~same path, 'out of meat'. varied slightly in how the meat was herded out of farm and into factory, yes, but same raw material
17:05 diana_coman from zero because "new man" and "proletariat will make now the middle class and the top class and everything else in between" ; oh, and culture and literature-with-party-line too, since we are at it
17:05 asciilifeform 'new man' is what happens when 'old man' dun want to get off his horse, basta, donotwant
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17:06 asciilifeform so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge'
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17:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-04#544129 << see also.
17:08 a111 Logged on 2014-03-04 01:25 asciilifeform: counter-derper: 'as the leather seats'
17:11 asciilifeform 'the west'(tm)(r) has 'fish in erry supermarket' , only on acct of the accumulated fat of entire generations mercilessly recycled into fuel . that fuel -- is running out, not long left until returns to historic norm of 'want fish, live by the sea and catch it'
17:11 diana_coman look that if we burnt down everything , we wouldn't even be able to chat; sure, make a new whatever but either you find a way to organically grow it with whatever bridges are needed at first out of what is or it's not going to work.
17:11 asciilifeform stalin didn't either immediately conscript erry horse plower into factory.
17:11 asciilifeform 'or would not be able to eat'
17:12 asciilifeform it's a slow grinding process. but either the man with the crown sets it in motion, or shortly 'No-one needs to learn to read and write in order to carry rubies out of a deep mine. '
17:13 diana_coman you know, the other funny thing is that all the Russians I talked to were rather shocked when I described every day childhood in an industrial town of the 80s in Romania; and usually the final comment is "hmmm, Romania didn't get to the part where it gets better". Perhaps though I can't quite see exactly how does it get better given the fundamental trouble.
17:14 asciilifeform e.g. ro, lost its sovereignty , and arguably the bill for ~that~ aint even remotely paid yet, nao it hosts nato rockets and became legit target for ru defensive systems
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17:14 asciilifeform if these fire , folx in ro will be lucky to have what grows to feed horse, not even speaking of auto or frozen fish.
17:15 diana_coman sure; as mircea_popescu pointed out already, Romania lost already earlier than that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901850
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17:15 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 16:23 mircea_popescu: diana_coman what, the horses ? the "killed elite" thing would be what, i gh duca ? (and guess what, digging for that reference i also ran into -- apparently there's a piece re the afore mentioned prince)
17:15 asciilifeform diana_coman: 'didn't get to the part where it gets better' << this is the distinct impression i get . and i suspect on acct of the shoemaker being soft.
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17:15 asciilifeform 'better' requires whole lotta compressed 'worse'.
17:16 diana_coman I can't see any sort of communism that is better.
17:17 diana_coman in terms of communism it was possibly the best communism there ever was, I can readily grant that. My problem is with the fact that it was communism though so...
17:17 asciilifeform earlier tried spreading for the germans. conceivably could have 'drinking bavarian' and even not as the leather seat, in an alt-hist
17:17 a111 Logged on 2018-05-14 16:41 asciilifeform: there's a common set of jokes from su, q: 'if only we let germany win, we'd be drinking bavarian! riding in mercedes!' a: '... yes, ride in mercedes. but -- as the leather seat.'
17:17 diana_coman i.e. "state property aka nobody's property" and so on
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17:17 asciilifeform the 1 thing that defo dun work for 'better' is 'peasant gets to sit on his horse if he wants'
17:17 asciilifeform ~that~ goes straight to becoming an africa.
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17:18 asciilifeform as soon as you got neighbours that aint african knocking on door.
17:18 asciilifeform england industrialized 'minus communism' but , i'll observe , with quite similar methods , and similar misery
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17:21 asciilifeform going upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902021 , oddly enuff per my reading ro ~was~ sovereign during post-stalin sovok. i.e. routinely pissed right in the mouth of e.g. hrusch, and got away scot-free
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17:21 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:15 diana_coman: sure; as mircea_popescu pointed out already, Romania lost already earlier than that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901850
17:21 diana_coman well, england is particularly good at misery making from what I can tell so I'd even grant them that they probably did the misery part even worse
17:22 asciilifeform tito's yugo, incidentally, similarly sovereign
17:22 diana_coman I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer
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17:22 asciilifeform ( tito -- imho genius, somehow pulled off 'communized heavy industry, but private biz for food etc' )
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17:24 asciilifeform diana_coman: this is where i admit that it is above my paygrade to say just how 'maybe without shoemaker, less worse and shorter' . if there's a way to keep neighbours from turning yer congo into a resource extraction base without marching peasants at gunpoint to city and having'em stand in front of lathes to make kalashes, i do not know it
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17:25 asciilifeform the typical result of attempt, is http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1044115
17:25 a111 Logged on 2015-03-06 03:29 mircea_popescu: if you are one of the people buying belgian rubber concessions on the stock exchanges, you make money. if you're in africa, you make quick with the hands and feet.
17:26 asciilifeform khmers tried in cambodia, got bulldozed by -- lol -- vietnamese army
17:27 asciilifeform as for the old shoemaker, admittedly i never wore a crown, but afaik folx who wear crowns do not have the option of saying 'we lost options'. sorta like the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663960 thing.
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17:27 a111 Logged on 2017-05-31 16:28 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
17:28 asciilifeform if yer wearing a crown and you really think 'no options' , you get out the wagner and cyanide and be sure to also dose blondie the dog 1st to make sure as fuck the cyanide is strong enuff
17:29 PeterL trinque: so I am running the cuntoo build script, it seems to have stopped doing anything, the end of the build log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/whbcf/?raw=true , not sure what to do next here?
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17:33 diana_coman asciilifeform, sure, at the root of it being wtf was a shoemaker doing with the crown on his head
17:34 asciilifeform wtf was a flunked seminary student an' bank robber was doing wearing crown, could also ask
17:34 asciilifeform if the dynastic crown-wearer is enuff of a tard, then yes shoemaker, or cabbie, or defrocked priest, will wear
17:34 diana_coman hence my earlier "out of options"
17:34 asciilifeform what did napoleon(?) say , 'crown fell into mud, so i pulled it out'
17:35 diana_coman precisely that: there aren't that many crown wearers to just let the one you have die
17:36 asciilifeform re sovereignty, i cannot resist to add a legendary tidbit : j. hariton , co-designer of sov nukes with kurchatov , in his last yrs of life was reputed to have uttered 'idiot , eltsin, thinks he is getting red carpet reception in washington because he is some kinda man, rather than because they think he has some of my warheads still in working order'
17:37 asciilifeform no warheads -> not only no red carpet, but you get orders from washington transmitted through a leiah at usg dept of state , and not by going into white house.
17:40 diana_coman soft words work best with a big gun sort of news?
17:40 asciilifeform moar of a 'without gun, the words go in 1 direction and are words 'drop on knees an' get ready to please' '
17:41 asciilifeform i wonder whether usg even bothers to ask ro 'democratic' apparatus when it feels like moving the 'aegis' batteries from place to place
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17:41 asciilifeform ... or when it's time to close the torture dungeon for renovation and open new one
17:43 diana_coman I haven't really followed in ages what democratic this and that is going on in there but I doubt there's anyone to ask anyway
17:46 asciilifeform i dun expect 'following' would tell one much, unless it is in the sense of 'followed gauleit^H^H^H^H^H^Hpresident and bugged his comp'
17:48 mircea_popescu ow megalog!
17:49 * diana_coman goes to read some more Caragiale to calm down
17:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901947 <<< ahahaha fucktards won't even admit. it's because the boys are mean that they're fat and slow ?
17:51 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 18:14 BingoBoingo: "La misma impotencia, o más, sienten las chicas del CB Guadalaviar. Ganaron la liga femenina la temporada pasada. El otro día perdieron 50-4 contra un rival masculino. Hemos pasado de ser campeonas de liga el año pasado a sentirnos humilladas. Es un chasco de competición, todo esto desmotiva, porque todos los partidos acabamos por los suelos con golpes."
17:51 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902040 -> ftr the problem is not that he "moved pesants to town" but simply that he did that a. through blatant lies (what communism is) rather than an honest gunpoint if that's what it takes b. failed in the end anyway
17:51 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:24 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is where i admit that it is above my paygrade to say just how 'maybe without shoemaker, less worse and shorter' . if there's a way to keep neighbours from turning yer congo into a resource extraction base without marching peasants at gunpoint to city and having'em stand in front of lathes to make kalashes, i do not know it
17:53 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901954 << you wanna discuss the fellow in the strict terms of 1984-1989 ? he found himself promoted (by lack of actual alternative at the time, ftr, not so much he took step forward as everyone else took steep absence) in '65.
17:53 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:08 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish"
17:53 mircea_popescu the 60s worked signfiicantly better in east berlin than i nwest berlin. the 80s miserably -- but mind that at the time, the russkis were doing ~even worse~.
17:54 mircea_popescu this isn't made up, either, various high officials joking about it, "what, ima desert in moscow ?! these schmucks have it worse than we do"
17:59 mircea_popescu let's do a quick ro commie likbez : ceausescu took over in '65. he got rid of dej-era leftovers as part and parcel of continuing dej's own policy of escaping the soviets. this the west ineptly (but in typical self-centered manner) misreported as "loosening".
17:59 mircea_popescu he then implemented his own state apparatus. there's nothing peculiar about this -- incoming us president also gets rid of old regime bureaucracy, at least if he has any fucking sense.
18:00 mircea_popescu other than escaping the soviets, he attempted a sort of mini-imperialism, the cutest tchotchke show you could ever imagine, romania as an imperial power of a rag tag group of nowhere countries (including columbia, we discussed the very unhappy lulz of romania when those doods decided to just walk out of "agreements" -- mirroring exactly say spain, over the centuries)
18:00 diana_coman mircea_popescu, "greaua mostenire" cuts both ways though; he gets to hide behind it for a while but he also doesn't get credit for a while
18:01 mircea_popescu as incidentally (and incompehendingly, to him) oil was high then (arab embargo) he decided to center this mini-empire on oil production and refining.
18:01 mircea_popescu whole thing went bankrupt in the 70s, by 72 it was dead. he decided to blame "the jews", as he understood them, hence "show off those slick ny bankers, pay debt".
18:01 mircea_popescu the country never recovered.
18:02 diana_coman and yes, I can see him easily and predictably as a scapegoat; kids, don't take crown found in the mud just because nobody else wants it
18:02 mircea_popescu diana_coman the point of the discussion, though, is to not end up accidentally banning shitting just because ceausescu was known to shit.
18:03 mircea_popescu in his relations to, eg, the "intellectual elite" (in their own mind, and exactly nowhere else) as gathered before him at say neptun, or mangalia, he was entirely correct. and his pointing out that they have yet work to do before their workproduct is as tall as he stands is sound, if unpleasant.
18:05 mircea_popescu what elite ? the pliiceanu corps ? that fat pig above ? gunoi dinescu ? laisses, as inept as ceausescu might've been politically, the culturniks were inept ^ inept.
18:05 diana_coman I suppose it's even ironic that the work he wanted them to do was by all indications closer to their possibilities; after all he wasn't asking for art or culture but simply for the set number of sentences with the set number of correct words and so on.
18:05 mircea_popescu qutie exactly.
18:06 mircea_popescu witness how the "boierii mintii" to this fucking day have on display neither a) work to compare with trilema or else b) the required prosternation before it.
18:08 mircea_popescu ie, it would have been ~better~, and for all of these dorks, to have obeyed ceausescu in '71, and in '83, and whenever else, than to adlai about.
18:08 diana_coman I wasn't even for a second considering *those* elites, no; as I said: elites were long dead by that time; the thing was precisely that being between them, well, he was asking the fat pigs to actually do something; big surprise they oinked only louder trembling that the food might stop.
18:09 asciilifeform i cannot resist to bite, an' ask, diana_coman , why the '83 adlais 'not elite', but the tail ends of habsburg absentee landlords somehow 'elite'
18:09 diana_coman and I'm not actually sure that pointing out "oh, but he was very correctly pointing out to the pigs that they should do something for their food"
18:09 diana_coman makes anything; I mean: talking to the pigs ?
18:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform romania had this brief surge in the late 1800s / early 1900s. her pov is factual, ro army had better officers than ~most anyone, for instance, and it was proven in both the extrication of the tsar from his inept turkis venture and in ww1.
18:10 asciilifeform if so great -- then wai fungus ate
18:10 mircea_popescu ww2.
18:10 diana_coman asciilifeform, ^ ; I can't really make it any shorter / clearer than that
18:11 mircea_popescu understand the situation : ro army held its 1/4 of stalingradf front with infantry and the occasional tachanka.
18:11 mircea_popescu wehrmacht had tanks, and the finns had impassible terrain.
18:11 asciilifeform so herr hitler shows up and says 'let's you an' i drang nach osten together, howabout'. wai ro elite answrd 'sure' and not 'fuckoff' (like e.g. swiss)
18:12 mircea_popescu because russians not human.
18:12 asciilifeform i dunthink the swiss thought 'ohnoez, human'
18:12 asciilifeform moar like 'i'ma not stick cock in wasp nest'
18:12 asciilifeform why ro, had to put cock in wasps.
18:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826747
18:12 a111 Logged on 2018-06-19 15:59 mircea_popescu: the universal oppinion of romanian officer corps, which, in romania, a country very german, were more than a third of the whole shebang, was that russians are literally worse than dogs.
18:13 diana_coman asciilifeform, at the grassroots thing, quote great-grandmother who lived through both wars: ffs ,the german soldiers were at least clean! the russians got us full of fleas!
18:13 asciilifeform i.e. idea is 'it'll go like pilsudski and not napoleon' ?
18:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but the russians also didn't ally with swiss against mongol horde only to withdraw midway
18:13 mircea_popescu the incredible mismanagement of world affairs by revolutionary govt cost the russians stalingrad, quite plainly.
18:14 mircea_popescu it's the sort of historical truth people dun wanna hear, but the causation's plain an' obvious.
18:15 asciilifeform dunno that partial differentiation worx in this context. for all i know, if not revolution + stalingrad, then instead http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 .
18:15 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:06 asciilifeform: so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge'
18:15 asciilifeform the old empire was irrecoverably sad as early as 1907.
18:15 mircea_popescu im not saying that staying behind and honoring war committments was POSSIBLE for the russians. i suspect -- was not possible.
18:16 mircea_popescu but nevertheless, diplomatically they were fucking inept. there's one thing to fail on an obligation, there's another to be offensive about it.
18:16 asciilifeform sorta how entente saw the whole ru withdrawal , neh
18:16 mircea_popescu which is why people even have diplomats in the first place, and why the whole "oh, washiongton correspondents dinner" wank ever even had any root in reality :
18:17 mircea_popescu because there's this group of people who talk for you so you don't end up more hated than you need to be.
18:17 asciilifeform the real q is waithefuq should lenin have fought britain's war for it . imho really oughta have ~switched sides~
18:18 mircea_popescu lenin hadn't what to fight a soccer match with, let alone war.
18:18 asciilifeform near as i can tell, that'd be why
18:18 mircea_popescu point being, ro front was half-ru.
18:18 * asciilifeform brb,meat
18:19 mircea_popescu easy fix, at peace conference post ww1, instead of "here's what we want" could've been, "oh, romania, sacred mother of our people, plox forgive us"
18:19 mircea_popescu but the galling idiocy of these schmucks actually making territorial demands ? it wasn't gonna be forgotten.
18:21 mircea_popescu soviets needed a slightly larger ukraine like i need slightly longer nose hairs. they ~did~ however need a friendly romania more than they needed hats.
18:21 mircea_popescu hat dun keep stalingrad from starving.
18:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901954 << not originally. originally, it was in the vein of hungarians driving over to shop in romania.
18:21 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:08 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901855 -> his "move" was - as most - very much in the vein of "this is the shop where we don't have fish"
18:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901958 << it's a matter of infrastructure that's discussed. in any fair comparison, nicu's building/whitewashing butade is actually closer to truth than any aferations of the "european stability and development funds" wank. infrastructurally, romania grew in the 60s and 70s. this was not matched hence (or ever afore, even accounting for surface and population, the carol boom is almost a degr
18:23 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:11 diana_coman: and that's valid for the 1000 bakeries too; I suppose one can argue that it's still an achievement to have bakeries with no bread than to have no bakeries and stale bread but I don't buy it; and note that in the 80's the latest brightest idea (in the same vein, all hail!) was to further do this sort of great "improvement", to wit the communal "neighbourhood kitchen" to get rid of such waste as having individual kitchens in every hruscheba
18:23 mircea_popescu ee of magnitude smaller.)
18:24 diana_coman mircea_popescu, when was that original hungarians driving over? because if it's 60s, dunno it has anything to do with him or with greaua mostenire in reverse
18:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901959 << note how this is EXACTLY what the usgistani is converging to, from both the "airbnb" end and the "communal dwelling for lifetime students" end.
18:24 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:11 diana_coman: (not to mention it's easier without, no?) ; circul foamei
18:24 diana_coman and yes, big; useful and durable?
18:25 mircea_popescu guy was ahead of his time, it's not specifically his fault that the spawn-and-divideresources cuntal strategy fails.
18:25 diana_coman aha, I even said it
18:25 diana_coman ahead; not sure on the right road though
18:25 mircea_popescu diana_coman yes, useful and durable. romania got a hidro power structure, for instance. the reason it even has power today.
18:26 mircea_popescu that log thing about "what sovok is -- it's when they take the poor country girl and give her a house for free", that fucking happened. whole generations of what else'd have [been] turned into http://trilema.com/fata-satului got forcibly taught how to be textile mill workers , and got forcibily placed in 1k sqft of new construction to call a house.
18:27 mircea_popescu or a hruscheba, or w/e the fuck they call it. makes entirely no difference, for the vast majority of the population of romania at the time had never lived in paved dwellings.
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18:27 diana_coman that is true; I kept thinking of the inept useless huge buildings , not the hydro and roads
18:27 mircea_popescu and the houses! the data's even published on trilema, compare the rfucking living surfaces 1930 to 1960, ie during the two earthquakes.
18:27 mircea_popescu and so on!
18:28 diana_coman uhm, wait
18:29 diana_coman what does 1930 to 1960 have to do with it?
18:29 mircea_popescu yes dood made a palace in a dubious style, that all the tircovnici obositi kept "superiorily" criticizing. but tell you what -- none of them were born in a better palace. they have all the footing to talk that any other african does.
18:29 diana_coman now C gets credit for 1960?
18:29 mircea_popescu diana_coman there were two major earthquakes in romania : nov 1940, and march 1977.
18:30 mircea_popescu willy-nilly these are the points of comparison as to the extant real estate inventory.
18:30 mircea_popescu ie, the carlton fell in 1940.
18:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901961 << this actually worked into the whole imperialism angle above. ceausescu had both drydocks of large capacity and steel production. decided to make ocean trawlers to compete in the (at the time) ongoing race to the bottom -- throughout 70s world oceans were systematically and industrially depopulated, a classical disaster of commons situation.
18:33 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:12 diana_coman: ftr funnily enough precisely fish was very much missing from ro diet to such extent that yes, there were slogans "nici o masa fara peste"
18:34 mircea_popescu the local twerps tho knew better, wouldn't touch the stuff. so it got sold in south-east asia instead.
18:34 diana_coman at any rate, it's not just a palace in dubious style; look at this point of ref: in 1960, new workers in Ploiesti got to buy a strip of land and build their own house; and they did, not one or two but whole streets; some of those were even fixed-size parcel, others (more expensive) not; in the 80s, workers got assigned (when? well, when enough children) some concrete-hruschebas-sorta-kinda-finished on the rule of n-1 rooms (not dorms, room
18:34 diana_coman s)
18:34 diana_coman that is his great contribution
18:34 diana_coman from the 60s to the 80s it goes from can build house on worker's salary to get to live in the party's shit
18:35 diana_coman not to mention how many were full of mould to the point that you'd get children with asthma and what not
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18:35 mircea_popescu there's no argument as to degradation. the objection is that the whole soviet world was undergoing the same process, and it hit the russians worse.
18:35 diana_coman much more living space, right?
18:36 mircea_popescu but yes, ceausescu's imperialist plans were obviously going to fail by the time mid 70s turned around, and were well and thoroughly doomed in 1980.
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18:36 diana_coman that thing with hit the russians worse is oddly in opposition to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902023
18:36 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:15 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'didn't get to the part where it gets better' << this is the distinct impression i get . and i suspect on acct of the shoemaker being soft.
18:37 mircea_popescu i dunno that he knows what he's talking about. as a factual matter, 1985 living conditions were worse in moscow than in bucharest (and by far worse in bucharest than say cluj, or timisoara)
18:38 diana_coman I suspect it's Moscow that was a superlative shithole simply
18:38 diana_coman pretty much as you readily grant bucharest is/was one
18:38 mircea_popescu i'm not saying this is the dood's doing to any degree -- there's a very clear gradient, once the crisis hit, it propagated west to east.
18:38 mircea_popescu ie, the yugos had it arguably the best in the 80s, among the whole warsaw pact.
18:38 diana_coman moscow is also waaaay bigger so presumably the shitholness factor is a few degrees of magnitude higher, easily
18:39 mircea_popescu possibly. there's very many variables to control in comparisons.
18:40 mircea_popescu but there's two lines of pedestrian ceausescu-hate that carry no water. one is, "he is responsible for drought". dood is not a 12yo girl dancing naked in the street, has no peculiar relationship to rain. the other is that he was particularly stupid. was not -- way the fuck smarter than period writers, or generally "intellectuals". less aware of the ample thesaurus of borrowed knowledge they used to drop in conversation as a s
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18:40 mircea_popescu ort of handshake, but imo this is defensible disinterest. you wouldn't say a kid "learns nothing in school" because he doesn't come home with the list of what grunge bands to listen to for maximum cooldom.
18:42 mircea_popescu the typical "oh, casa poporului is so ugly" item goes right in #2 above : it's a code, exactly like any other code. it's function is to permit the sort of moron who is affraid of the world to recognize who's likely to huddle with him.
18:42 diana_coman I didn't even realise casa poporului was such a reference point in this sense; i.e. ugly well, it's typical era-style, what
18:43 diana_coman and fwiw it has everything inside made-in-romania so there, pride
18:43 mircea_popescu it's not any uglier than 1, police plaza in new york
18:43 diana_coman if anything, casa poporului at least is basically to this day a ...monument if nothing else
18:43 mircea_popescu and i fail to hear stupid cunt-pippidi explain "how ugly it is"
18:43 mircea_popescu or, horrible dictu, how it mars obama as a moron with no culture.
18:43 mircea_popescu notwithstanding ceausescu watched tv for his own interest, at least, which is a step above the nigglet.
18:44 * diana_coman never heard this "how ugly it is" re casa poporului, possibly because she never listened to mungiu-pippidi and the like
18:44 mircea_popescu yes well.
18:44 diana_coman I always rather considered casa poporului among his achievements - at least there is something everyone knows re Bucharest, what do you want now
18:44 mircea_popescu (i also fail to hear these "cultured" fucktards explain how ~exactly the same~ was said of what now makes the glory of austria, that insane dood's palaces)
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18:45 mircea_popescu somehow they never fucking heard of anything, it's like talking to bouvard & pecuchet.
18:46 mircea_popescu incidentally alf, ludwig 2 of bavaria is a fine example re this wot. one day decided to ditch his cabinet -- the cabinet decided it'd better ditch him first!!!
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18:48 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902171 -> fwiw it's hate of communism of which ceausescu is the great product and crowning - admittedly local- glory.
18:48 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:40 mircea_popescu: but there's two lines of pedestrian ceausescu-hate that carry no water. one is, "he is responsible for drought". dood is not a 12yo girl dancing naked in the street, has no peculiar relationship to rain. the other is that he was particularly stupid. was not -- way the fuck smarter than period writers, or generally "intellectuals". less aware of the ample thesaurus of borrowed knowledge they used to drop in conversation as a s
18:49 mircea_popescu sure, why not.
18:50 mircea_popescu the problem with communism, however, is not that it kept plesu, liiceanu, dinescu, mungiu etc from producing great crystals of pure thought to make the fame of romania throughout the ages.
18:50 mircea_popescu on the contrary -- to them, its most excellent quality is they've something to blame for ~their own~, wholly subjective and entirely cosubstantial nothingness.
18:50 diana_coman re stupid my understanding of the usual charge is that he was non-intelligent, not non-smart; clever and shrewd perhaps; then again, this is my "translation" - I don't really know either way, not as if I knew the guy
18:51 mircea_popescu meanwhile ceausescu's communism DID produce the only olympic gold romania got till those times.
18:51 mircea_popescu and possibly hence.
18:51 mircea_popescu and it is VERY different to take credit from the industrial products that are 12yo gymnasts, than to sit about and go "o look, this excellent tennis player got #1".
18:51 mircea_popescu very different sports. there's a reason communisms produce ballerinas.
18:51 diana_coman but plesu, liiceanu, dinescu, mungiu etc are equally products of communism and I'd much rather have preferred not hearing of them ever
18:53 mircea_popescu i don't think this was avoidable. like that schmuck whose name's forgotten who wanted to be famous so bad, set athens on fire.
18:55 diana_coman not only ballerinas, here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21yj2lEgrA
18:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901970 << the good bit there is where he asks for some hair paint be invented to order. saw that ?
18:56 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:40 diana_coman: with the added bonus that Ibraileanu in 1909 cites from the same piece of Caragiale (Politica si cultura) with the comment that Caragiale was the most acerbic critic of... "liberalism" (the quotations marks are Ibraileanu's) that is further explained as "partidul <<ros>>" aka the red party.
18:57 diana_coman yes! I had a blast and many chuckles re-reading Caragiale
18:57 diana_coman vapsea de par interna :D
18:57 mircea_popescu yeah. and yes, his words for the opposition would have been "partidul collectivist". what c a rosetti & co were pushing is entirely indistinct from today's pantsuitism, in all its particulars.
18:58 mircea_popescu "liberals" in the sense clinton's "democratic"
18:58 mircea_popescu these are just words niggers say.
18:59 diana_coman quite; there was a bit of an anger moment when I realised that in school they never even *mentioned* those writings of Caragiale, let alone study them
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18:59 mircea_popescu (he was not alone either, eminescu of entirely the same persuasion)
19:00 mircea_popescu diana_coman "coincidentally", in the pantsuit sense of coincidence.
19:01 diana_coman aha, ibraileanu in fact mentions both as similar in this sense though Caragiale even more instransigent on the matter, supposedly because simply living closer to the problem as it were, as it started in Muntenia
19:03 mircea_popescu in any case, to briefly revisit : ceausescu's designs with his oil gains, while ultimately crowned by failure, were nevertheless A LOT smarter than period venezuela's commitments. and certainly way the fuck better than qatar building another mall today.
19:04 mircea_popescu it's unclear how much can be expected of one guy, or what exactly set of interactions to judge him by. nevertheless, setting top level policy broadly correctly is probably both there and sufficient. in this sense, ceausescu is better than say the english tard, what's her name, or the german tard, what's her name.
19:05 mircea_popescu may respectiv merkel, mi se sopteste din off.
19:06 diana_coman this eerily reminds me of "but why are you so upset with yourself??? others got even worse marks than you!!!"
19:07 diana_coman if it is to grant him that there are currently many worse than him - readily granted.
19:07 mircea_popescu you still gotta score the set somehiw.
19:08 mircea_popescu not even a matter of upset or not upset, just, "order this set"
19:08 diana_coman sure but scoring based on the bottom is dubious
19:08 mircea_popescu the argument as i perceived it generally revolves around this "omg, he's the devil!!!"
19:08 diana_coman i.e. look, not as bad as it can be; sure, there is always worse.
19:08 mircea_popescu exact nonsense spewing out of the same quarters during say basescu terms.
19:09 diana_coman the argument where?
19:09 mircea_popescu i ran into a lotta these, you know, idle workers who couldn't work because basescu didn't let them.
19:09 mircea_popescu i dunno, in the "public space", whatever.
19:09 diana_coman ahahah, sure
19:10 diana_coman there is plenty of others to blame and then the top-name is at least easy to remember so there, win.
19:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901981 << misery in the short term and complete oblivion in the long term. there's not gonna be anymore "trade in women" as they expect it to work, for one thing.
19:10 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:46 asciilifeform: peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term
19:10 mircea_popescu diana_coman sure, why not. for the same money could just blame god tho.
19:11 diana_coman they did! "it's so-and-so-saint day, can't work or I'll get the plague"
19:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901987 << it was pushed as hard as it needed to be. ro industrialized ~same as ussr did, really.
19:12 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:49 asciilifeform: c ( or perhaps this ball belongs with dej ? ) maybe 'soft', or maybe thought could not afford to kill %% of his subjects, i do not presently know why not pushed.
19:12 diana_coman bonus: si din batrani e obicei / in cinstea sfintilor sa bei - / iar legea n-o stirbesc parintii.
19:13 mircea_popescu heh
19:13 mircea_popescu the universal problem, in the end : there's a difference between what you want and what you need.
19:14 diana_coman not to mention when you get what you neither want nor need :P
19:15 mircea_popescu necessarily.
19:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901993 << right, http://trilema.com/2012/the-imbecilitarians/#selection-191.0-209.295 geniuses at work.
19:17 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:55 BingoBoingo: Don't forget the unbutchered labor activists in the Southern Cone who will consider shuttering a Ford factory "a win for the people"
19:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901994 << this is deeply untrue, though. romania made its own military equipment, which it did not have in the 30s. there's such a thing as truck factory or tractor factory or etc. period romania had ENTIRELY nothing at all, revisit http://trilema.com/2012/o-bucatica-de-istorie-sau-1907-din-primavara-pina-in-toamna-de-ion-luca-caragiale/ as an excellent summary of the situation in the countr
19:20 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:56 diana_coman: to my mind that's precisely the thing: it's not (or not only) that "screaming meat" but the fact that at the end of it, it's only a replacement with what is in fact an inferior, not a superior thing
19:20 mircea_popescu y "prior". the whole thing was a bunch of inept by-hand farmers (CENTURIES after the french peasant had domestique-industrialize already! CEEENTURIES!!!!) and a 14% class literally dreaming on top of them, while "hating" the boss that "makes them" do the makework that existed ENTIRELY as a pretext to pay them, in the very "internal paint" hope they might achieve something sometime somehow (all unspecified).
19:21 mircea_popescu that communism was untenable by the time 80s rolled around is a historical fact ; but kingdom romania was actually ~more~ bankrupt, as an intellectual endeavour, than communism ever got.
19:22 mircea_popescu the commies answers to fundamental questions, as insufficient, incorrect, inept, useless or w/e else you might find them, seated in the hallowed confines of the republic, nevertheless blew the fuck out of the water the available alternatives.
19:22 mircea_popescu yes they "were brought by the tanks", but they stayed because they were actually effectual, and actually persuasive.
19:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902001 << the problematic things here are miniaturization and technologization. there's relatively little need or use for the sort of "factory" as displayed in 1950s italian films. and besides, india can have those.
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19:27 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 20:59 asciilifeform: on my admittedly short expedition i saw 5 dead factories , and 1 working -- little thing inside of much larger corpse ; and it made gears for bmw
19:28 mircea_popescu eg, s.nsa is more of a factory, in objective terms, than tractorul brasov ever was or could have been. it's what it is, these days "factory" is complex item.
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19:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902009 << this is VERY much related to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901903 discussion. it's not like #trilema was fulla linus, djb, everyone else, and i out of my sheer insane evil meanness negrated them an' forced them out.
19:30 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:05 asciilifeform: 'new man' is what happens when 'old man' dun want to get off his horse, basta, donotwant
19:30 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 17:02 mircea_popescu: consider the traditional antisemitism -- a cluster of lumphocytes around a very real problem, yes, but SUBJECTIVE PROBLEM OF THE JEWS. not irritating "the organism" as such in any sense, beyond the very obvious an' deeply human "you folk can't be this fucking stupid!" thing
19:30 mircea_popescu the fucking morons ~opted~ for evil, and then went about as if their pretending "they didn't opt" makes it BE THE CASE they did not so opt.
19:30 mircea_popescu new man happens when old man chooses to be so fucking stupid as to not meaningfully exist in any sense.
19:31 mircea_popescu "oh, but we'd exist in our stupid sense we came up with!" right.
19:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 << fucking precisely. watching #trilema from a distance, with imbecile "skepticism" is not a free option. should it fail, there goes computing, and generally speaking this is the one chance this century.
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19:32 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:06 asciilifeform: so you try an' make a 'new'. and pray that it worx, before 'a bunch of foreigners land on your shores, buy up some local chiefs, chop down your forests, rip the minerals out of your soil, enslave a few generations, and eventually go home, leaving their bastards in charge'
19:32 mircea_popescu next century, maybe has one also. maybe not.
19:34 diana_coman http://trilema.com/2012/o-bucatica-de-istorie-sau-1907-din-primavara-pina-in-toamna-de-ion-luca-caragiale/#selection-283.267-283.654 -> to which communism was the answer; oh boy.
19:35 mircea_popescu it was a better answer than anything bratianu had.
19:35 mircea_popescu (this largely consisted of "let's give oil to shell and with money build carlton bloc hurr durr".)
19:36 mircea_popescu but yes, the history of the "free world" closely approximates the history of a bunch of morons. because guess what -- they ARE a bunch of morons.
19:37 diana_coman changing one set of lies for another set of lies; better lies! granted, everything is just a better lie until finding an even better one.
19:37 mircea_popescu he is ~absolutely correct~, too. the actual fuel, for communism's efficiency and persuasion, was precisely the reservoir he identifies : ". Și cîți aliați devotați n'ar găsii în captivii de cari pomenim mai sus, sătui de a-și călca mereu pe cuget și pe inimă, de a-și jertfi zilnic, pe altarul minciunii și inichității, convingerile lor adînci, dragostea de adevăr și de patrie !." is === http://trilema.com/20
19:37 mircea_popescu 13/on-learning-communism/#selection-63.118-63.131
19:38 mircea_popescu that woman, born i'd guess in the 30s, was the daughther.
19:38 mircea_popescu diana_coman newton -> einstein is precisely changing a set of lies for a better set of lies. world dun work as physics says, nor ever did. however -- better lies work better.
19:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902019 << eh, this was always the case. romania didn't particularly ~want~ to participate in ye various wars. but always this circumstantial "Can't really not to".
19:44 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:14 asciilifeform: e.g. ro, lost its sovereignty , and arguably the bill for ~that~ aint even remotely paid yet, nao it hosts nato rockets and became legit target for ru defensive systems
19:51 diana_coman born in the 30s was educated 40s-50s, rather mostenire as it were.
19:52 * asciilifeform in the midst of ffalogical labyrynth but cannot resist to peek & eat thrd
19:52 * diana_coman will go to sleep
19:53 asciilifeform goodnight diana_coman
19:55 mircea_popescu people recur, is the thing.
19:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902029 << sure. and also, that you went to universitatea politehnica bucuresti, instead of mit. i believe ushinski is way the fuck better than dr seuss, in terms of primary school textbooks, also. and so following.
19:56 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:17 diana_coman: i.e. "state property aka nobody's property" and so on
19:57 mircea_popescu even though economy had ~died, the 70s east cultural clock still synchronized a lot closer to reality than the 70s west cultural clock.
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19:57 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902158 << ~100% of ameristani dwellings have mold that would make sovok inspector shit in pants
19:57 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:35 diana_coman: not to mention how many were full of mould to the point that you'd get children with asthma and what not
19:57 asciilifeform ( presswood, see , and ~uncleanable 'central air' ducts )
19:58 mircea_popescu in the end, there's two major functions of leadership in human society. one is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-12#1880251 (generally called "economy") and the other is, synchronization, as in, selection of schelling points. this is usualyl called culture, but it's a large thing, including tropes and all sorta manner of thing.
19:58 a111 Logged on 2018-12-12 18:21 mircea_popescu: aanyway. labour allocation is broken and nobody has any better.
19:59 mircea_popescu as it happens, in warsaw pact function #1 failed ~mid 70s, and function #2 failed ~mid 80s.
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19:59 a111 Logged on 2018-05-22 05:18 mircea_popescu: long story short, soviet kids integrated into youth culture faster than soviet state integrated "soviet world" ; the result was the failure of the soviet state.
20:00 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902184 << ludvig ? bavaria iirc , not austria
20:00 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:44 mircea_popescu: (i also fail to hear these "cultured" fucktards explain how ~exactly the same~ was said of what now makes the glory of austria, that insane dood's palaces)
20:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yeah.
20:00 asciilifeform oh ha mircea_popescu already got there in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902186
20:00 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:46 mircea_popescu: incidentally alf, ludwig 2 of bavaria is a fine example re this wot. one day decided to ditch his cabinet -- the cabinet decided it'd better ditch him first!!!
20:00 * asciilifeform goes to eat whole thing rather than LL(1) parsing..
20:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902033 << it is altogether dubious how "without communism". seems they got the worst parts of it, except for (notably) the name. but otherwise, consider ye recent gladstone discussion.
20:04 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:18 asciilifeform: england industrialized 'minus communism' but , i'll observe , with quite similar methods , and similar misery
20:04 mircea_popescu "We mean to value all the land in the kingdom Now, what is going to happen in the future? In future those landlords will have to contribute to the taxation of the country on the basis of the real value - only one halfpenny in the pound!"
20:04 mircea_popescu ie, "land is no longer this thing the noble owns as his thing to own. land is now a sort of community chest, that the state owns, and maybe noble continues as its steward a while"
20:04 asciilifeform gladstone ~century after the 'enclosures' etc, neh
20:05 mircea_popescu this is not communism ? why, because islander fucktards gotta call everything by a "new" name ?
20:05 asciilifeform sure is. but is 100+ y after the mills afaik
20:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and cough is days after infection, what of it.
20:05 mircea_popescu they ~still got it~, was the point.
20:06 asciilifeform for all i know, 'errybody gets it' at some pt, like errybody dies.
20:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902031 << this, ftr, is very much true. rights for morons === disaster.
20:06 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:17 asciilifeform: ~that~ goes straight to becoming an africa.
20:06 asciilifeform contention was, they industrialized before communitardized
20:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform only because they communitardized in colonies first.
20:07 mircea_popescu so could briefly pretend like every sheffield weaver's a sorta miniprince, on well hidden coolie labour with serials filed off.
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20:07 mircea_popescu considering the cost of the deception, and the ultimately negligible actual results...
20:08 asciilifeform afaik that's the 'standard model' of the brit empire -- drained batteries of india, americas, etc, then ate own arse
20:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902034 << they were a sought ally at the time, pretty much fucked the caer idea. difference now is they ~asked~ to be in eu.
20:08 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:21 asciilifeform: going upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902021 , oddly enuff per my reading ro ~was~ sovereign during post-stalin sovok. i.e. routinely pissed right in the mouth of e.g. hrusch, and got away scot-free
20:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902039 << this was widely admired, whole "third way" 80s wank. i find the proposition dubious, in the sense that it strictly depends on the yugo ~people~ being a certain kind. just the right mix of crazy and dedicated. worked out terribly in 94 too.
20:09 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 asciilifeform: ( tito -- imho genius, somehow pulled off 'communized heavy industry, but private biz for food etc' )
20:09 asciilifeform i have nfi what sorta battery tito ran on
20:10 asciilifeform but clearly ran out
20:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038 << this is not factually true. compare ceausescu's reaction to czech invasion with http://trilema.com/2009/a-fost-odata-cand-romania-a-avut-dreptate/ when basescu did ~same re ~same, invasion of serbia.
20:10 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 diana_coman: I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer
20:12 mircea_popescu exact same case of fucktarded "washington press reps dinner" pantsuit meeting ro head, being laughed at. but in the former case gorby was still answering for it ; whereas in the latter i have yet to see the apologetics for ~the failure~.
20:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the diff b/w 'then and nao' is that 'the west'(tm)(r) dun have a miami to decamp to. hence 'cream' stews in own juices, and no genuflections/'apologies'
20:13 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902047 << that's the kernel's own config process, and the "aborted" makes me think you pressed ctrl-c
20:13 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:29 PeterL: trinque: so I am running the cuntoo build script, it seems to have stopped doing anything, the end of the build log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/whbcf/?raw=true , not sure what to do next here?
20:13 asciilifeform ( as how gorby genuflected for katyn shooting , gulag, etc , to earn his miami )
20:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902044 << amusing episode, http://trilema.com/2010/intiiul-troll/#selection-45.0-45.113
20:14 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:27 asciilifeform: as for the old shoemaker, admittedly i never wore a crown, but afaik folx who wear crowns do not have the option of saying 'we lost options'. sorta like the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663960 thing.
20:15 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902246 << ~100% of the manhole covers on my street, have a 'made in india' text. 'leave it to india' worx a++ until india decides that erry fuckwad 'deserves' own country house and sinecure and etc. and soon enuff you have a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902304
20:15 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 23:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902001 << the problematic things here are miniaturization and technologization. there's relatively little need or use for the sort of "factory" as displayed in 1950s italian films. and besides, india can have those.
20:15 a111 Logged on 2019-03-14 00:07 mircea_popescu: so could briefly pretend like every sheffield weaver's a sorta miniprince, on well hidden coolie labour with serials filed off.
20:16 mircea_popescu nah. i could start steel production in a week, if need be.
20:16 asciilifeform lol iirc mao also said
20:16 mircea_popescu india can't start mpex production in a millenium, though. and even simpler things -- notice how much fucking work all sorta things we do take us.
20:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902058 << well, they'd have to get new land grants.
20:18 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 21:41 asciilifeform: i wonder whether usg even bothers to ask ro 'democratic' apparatus when it feels like moving the 'aegis' batteries from place to place
20:18 asciilifeform that iirc was the ameritards' notion also, 'let the untermenschen make tractors, we'll make nasdaq' neh
20:18 asciilifeform how well it went ?
20:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and yet we dont make our own shoes.
20:19 asciilifeform asciilifeform is ~this close~ to 'make own shoes'
20:19 mircea_popescu not because of some sort of deviousness though. just sheer decay, morons resplendent.
20:20 asciilifeform rright. but gotta point out, 'let'em make the basics, we'll make mpexes and fermat's theorems' dunwork if taken entirely literally.
20:21 asciilifeform in sane planet, i could walk into a shop and have motherfucking pcb xrayed for fivebux.
20:21 asciilifeform and not (wtf!) have to buy the gear.
20:22 asciilifeform ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY )
20:22 mircea_popescu myeah.
20:23 asciilifeform recall : the xray best-quote of 5 firms was : 2700 orcdubloons PER SHOT
↖
20:23 asciilifeform microscopist : 24K.
20:23 asciilifeform 24K , ftr, buys ~tabletop~ electron mic.
20:23 asciilifeform with warranty.
20:24 asciilifeform nao, it ~is~ possible that i'ma rube. and somewhere there's a seekrit base of not-retarded people.
20:25 asciilifeform but i aint found it yet.
20:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902140 << the crowd of very similar 'pippidi' bashing sovok, always makes sure to compare hruscheba to manhattan penthouse, and not to the dirt floor hut 90% of ru lived in pre-sovok
20:26 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:27 mircea_popescu: or a hruscheba, or w/e the fuck they call it. makes entirely no difference, for the vast majority of the population of romania at the time had never lived in paved dwellings.
20:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902207 << asciilifeform served 10 yrs of time in ameri-school. 0 mention of e.g. twain.
20:29 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 22:59 diana_coman: quite; there was a bit of an anger moment when I realised that in school they never even *mentioned* those writings of Caragiale, let alone study them
20:32 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902248 << sadly must point out , that the places where the active components made, dwarf any sovok tractor plant
20:32 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 23:28 mircea_popescu: eg, s.nsa is more of a factory, in objective terms, than tractorul brasov ever was or could have been. it's what it is, these days "factory" is complex item.
20:32 asciilifeform not only in floor space, but cost , in any unit one might care to price in
20:33 asciilifeform i dun have a fab in my kitchen, i promise that would say if i did
20:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902255 << i find it increasingly harder to avoid the thought that computing is going down to bottom of the sea unless and until we fab
20:34 a111 Logged on 2019-03-13 23:32 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 << fucking precisely. watching #trilema from a distance, with imbecile "skepticism" is not a free option. should it fail, there goes computing, and generally speaking this is the one chance this century.
20:35 mircea_popescu yeah well.
20:35 asciilifeform ( does mircea_popescu find idea of 20yrs of chasing down x86 glitches appealing perspective ? )
20:36 mircea_popescu there's a ready stream of distractions available to distract thre willing from the much plainer and closer to nose fact that we'll go to bottom of the sea if we don't, eg, manage to get pizarro going properly. etc.
20:36 asciilifeform no shortage of these
20:37 asciilifeform luckily we have mircea_popescu to give clue re in what order to bucket water from the flooded compartments
20:37 mircea_popescu but yes, i'm sure eventually we'll fab.
20:37 mircea_popescu whether in city or behind autofiring turret line, still open q.
20:38 asciilifeform ( consider, sovok faced much simpler problem, when ~it~ resorted to fab -- that amerireich ~wouldn't sell'em~ the goodstuff. today, can't even ~buy~ the goodstuff if yer sultan of brunei )
20:39 asciilifeform it aint there, to be bought.
20:40 mircea_popescu idiots invaded wrong czech.
20:40 asciilifeform where's 'right czech'
20:42 mircea_popescu where the good stuff is.
20:42 asciilifeform the punchline is that in 1968 sovok was ~slightly ahead~ in ic.
20:42 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-01#1877419 << see also.
20:42 a111 Logged on 2018-12-01 20:39 asciilifeform: ( who even into '70s persisted in a belief that there's 'amazing su tech' worth fishing out of e.g. sunken su sub , with howard hughes' mega-boat )
20:43 asciilifeform they raised the boat btw , and found the ics. i have some of them ( well, not them, but same type ) here. pretty interesting item, moar like ultra-miniaturized smt pcb than what modern folx think of as 'ic'
20:46 asciilifeform meanwhile in wikitardism : https://archive.is/spATf << behold , the diagrams all labeled in ru
20:46 asciilifeform i wonder from where stole
20:46 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY ) << And the caterpillar store here neither sells nor rents earthmoving equipment, instead sells girls outdoor fashions
~ 53 minutes ~
21:40 feedbot http://bingology.net/2019/03/14/more-future-sight-in-the-southern-cone/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- More Future Sight In The Southern Cone
21:50 asciilifeform in other noose,
21:50 asciilifeform !A help
21:50 mircea_popescu in other news, these diana_coman compilation notes are just sad. wtf is wrong with people, "portable" and "support" seem to only support fucking nonsense, and quite selectively at that.
21:51 asciilifeform err,
21:51 asciilifeform !!up pehbot
21:51 deedbot pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
21:51 asciilifeform !A help
21:51 pehbot asciilifeform: I am PehBot. My Width is currently fixed to 256, Height to 32, Tape to 300, Life to 150.
21:51 asciilifeform !A .5:[Foo].1-",_
21:51 pehbot asciilifeform: FooFooFooFooFoo
21:51 asciilifeform !A .5:[Foo].3:[Bar].1-",_.1-",_
↖ ↖
21:51 pehbot asciilifeform: FooBarBarBarFooBarBarBarFooBarBarBarFoo
21:52 asciilifeform !A :[Ho];
↖
21:52 pehbot asciilifeform: HoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHoHo
21:52 asciilifeform ^ exercise for reader.
21:55 * asciilifeform bbl,meat
21:55 mircea_popescu diana_coman explain http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 to me. so there's http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/#selection-37.1-37.47 ; now why isn't it usable for v ? i'm missing something here.
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21:55 a111 Logged on 2019-03-11 10:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, in short, the keccak spec in its current form really since it considers input at bit-level and then goes on to mess about with some assumptions at bit-level and some at octet-level and making a lot of confusion without any good reason e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/#selection-55.383-63.563 ; one needs to disentangle that and put it in octet-only shape, octet stre
~ 47 minutes ~
22:43 mod6 Cool: 02:43 -!- Welcome to the TMSR Internet Relay Chat Network mod6
22:45 mod6 Got a ratbox setup, gonna need to do some testing
22:47 mod6 irc.mod6.net / #trilema if you wanna join up and test
22:48 mod6 or 108.61.199.188
~ 25 minutes ~
23:13 trinque neato, I'm there
23:17 mod6 forwarn: just noticed that the nick maxlen is 9. I'll have to recompile, probably tomorrow.
23:17 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: that yang link is hilarious : wtf does 1000 orcdubloons even buy
23:17 trinque ample weed and cheezburg, what
23:17 asciilifeform mod6: congrats, neato, i'ma try it when i wake
23:18 asciilifeform trinque: a month or 2 of it, neh, then wat
23:19 asciilifeform apparently these folx want to try out ye olde sovok 'voucher' experience on own skin
23:20 asciilifeform ( helps that they're entirely innocent of reading, sovok may as well have happened on mars as they're concerned , i suspect )
23:21 trinque afaik the derp's talking about UBI, not a one-shot payment
23:21 asciilifeform 'hey kid? yer rent was 700? guesswat, ~this~ month you owe 1700'
23:21 mod6 asciilifeform: cool, no rush or anything. it's gonna be some effort to get it all shined up and ready.
23:21 asciilifeform trinque: ok modify then, 'from nao on 1700'
23:22 trinque sure, who's thinking.
23:22 asciilifeform this kinda thing imho crosses some line even for tards
23:23 asciilifeform it's fingers-in-mains-socket level of stupid
23:37 BingoBoingo What rent? They live in multgenerational households, Latin style
23:38 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: so mother gets a 'yer rent was... you have 2 reddit sons ? guess what, nao x + 2000'
23:38 asciilifeform big fat diff
23:38 BingoBoingo Nah, mom or grandma has mortgage
23:38 asciilifeform ( and not necessarily immediately or as compactly as in this didactic example, but sure enuff, sheep will be shorn )
23:38 trinque nobody is thinking about any of this, and of course.
23:38 BingoBoingo Anyways 1000 dollars in 2021 may as well be 1000 pesos in 2019
23:39 BingoBoingo Sure they will all find a way to get captured
23:40 asciilifeform in the linked piece, pic of some (presumably nao old) d00d when young, and 'his tuition was 400'. takes all of 5sec to think out why his 400 and herr redditard's is 40000
23:41 asciilifeform this aint exactly fermat-grade problem
23:42 BingoBoingo Hey, I can still get 5kg of "picada de novillo" for just under 1000 pesos
23:48 BingoBoingo I dunno what the US substitute costs in USD atm, but...
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