Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-02-13 | 2019-02-15 → ↓
00:01 mircea_popescu "fetish for futility", that has quite the ring to it.
00:08 mircea_popescu anyway, this trinque - mod6 exchange's gonna be a thing for the ages.
00:20 BingoBoingo mod6 seems to be in an uncomfortable place resembling where I was exactly a year ago except the people around him speak his mom's tongue. I hope he can pupate in *spite* of that
00:25 BingoBoingo But where mod6 adds friction, zero'ing drives. I like that
~ 44 minutes ~
01:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896235 << ima write an article nao.
01:09 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 03:22 mod6: I'm not sure that I get your meaning.
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
02:31 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896155 -> the point is that it's supposed to slow down the code *at all times* , not only /if it crashes; so no, I don't imagine anyone cares about *that* if the whole thing crashes
02:31 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 02:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-13#1895868 << we don't so much care, seeing how we don't intend to have exceptions but exceptionally. if the thing crashes ever, your problems will be in excess of 99, but none of them that "it took one half milisecond extra for burning relic to make it back to earth"
02:32 mircea_popescu aha
02:40 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896320 -> hm, trinque, do you suspect it's really just down to V version? I can easily re-run the thing with a V pressed to same node as yours to rule that out, if that's the case
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02:40 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 04:05 trinque: mod6: the curious thing is that you have full paths in just *part* of your genesis.vpatch, in the same exact way diana_coman did
02:41 diana_coman mircea_popescu, the thing there is: it's true we don't care about it if the server crashes but is it also true we don't care about an overall slowdown at all times because of each and any exception actually handled in the code?
02:44 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying/ << Trilema -- So what is the man saying ?
02:45 mircea_popescu trinque let me know how close i got.
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02:45 mircea_popescu diana_coman do you mean risen exceptions ?
02:45 mircea_popescu and yes, i would say it's worth re-pressing to his node and seeing if that fixes it. if it does, we'll have some 'splainin' to do.
02:48 diana_coman no, not risen
02:49 diana_coman according to docs, the mere presence of a handler of exception slows the whole things down when lj
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02:49 mircea_popescu but this is already checked, no ? all sorts of exceptions are in fact handled by your for loops code, that were not risen
02:49 diana_coman regardless of whether exception is actually raised
02:49 mircea_popescu this is specifically what we were checking, whether this is true or not.
02:50 diana_coman hm; I don't know if it's exactly the same thing or not; perhaps it is
02:51 diana_coman re re-pressing to his node - note that that is re v-tools in fact; and I pressed the v-starter to node before that precisely because it essentially forks there i.e. there are 2 options
02:51 mircea_popescu but i mean, your code would have handled exceptions if they arose, yes ? if a for looped out of bounds, or whatever. isn't it so ?
02:52 diana_coman being starter, I preferred not to force a choice there; but at any rate, if the previous node is basically broken as I gather that's certainly a problem
02:52 mircea_popescu i can't even figure how it'd be broken, but yes.
02:52 diana_coman ada's checks raise exceptions yes; not handled; I don't know if additional explicit handlers ADD or not
02:53 mircea_popescu but there is no such thing as a TRULY unhandled exception. either it hoses the box or else it goes to the default handler.
02:53 diana_coman well, if the resulting paths are mangled then it'd be broken somehow, no/
02:53 mircea_popescu yes, but it doesn't seem to.
02:53 mircea_popescu i can't believe we manage to have crosstalk with just two people talking.
02:53 diana_coman well yes, but 1 default handler means slowdown of 1 single handler no matter how many exceptions; because slowdown if any, afaik is re number of handlers precisely, NOT exceptions
02:53 diana_coman ahahha, yes
02:54 * diana_coman also adds kids reading over my shoulder and commenting, lol
02:54 mircea_popescu diana_coman but nobody's ever adding MORE handlers. so if this is so, it still is moot.
02:55 * mircea_popescu is more than welcoming criticism / commentary from experts ; as far as my lights see, we have in fact checked that documented penalty and found it missing in practice.
02:55 mircea_popescu diana_coman : btw, here's my current model for the calling timing harness : write three procedures, A B C. have each of these 1. increment a global counter, X ; 2. check if X is over a max value ; 3. if it is not, have each call either one or the other of the other two randomly ; 4. if X is over max value, have them simply return.
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02:55 mircea_popescu set max value to say 65536 (this should result in <mb stack load, i am guessing ?) and let it run.
02:56 mircea_popescu IF indeed there's a significant difference between call and loop re that cost, this'll bring it out.
02:56 mircea_popescu (honestly i never heard of a program that properly used 64k stack frames ; seems if truly one needs such depths, one's welcome to fucking rewrite something, recursion be damned.)
02:57 diana_coman will do the calling timing harness too
02:57 mircea_popescu "random" doesn't need to be strong, just enough to fuck the optimiser. mt_rand or anything works really.
02:58 diana_coman re more handlers: there are some cases where we would conceivably need to handle an exception though few
02:58 diana_coman few cases I mean
02:59 mircea_popescu not like it's verboten, write in some handlers, why the hell not.
03:03 diana_coman k, will add to list for today
03:06 mircea_popescu ima add sleep to my list for today.
~ 7 hours 24 minutes ~
10:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896364 << possibly pertinent detail : on modern irons, long jmp within page seems to take same time as short. so the toy tester may not reveal diff.
10:30 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 07:49 diana_coman: according to docs, the mere presence of a handler of exception slows the whole things down when lj
~ 27 minutes ~
10:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform why do you think all the serpenting happens in the same page ?
10:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: depending on your irons, page can be 4MB
10:59 asciilifeform proggy is small.
11:00 mircea_popescu are you talking about the loop thing or the calls thing ?
11:00 asciilifeform both
11:01 asciilifeform 'perf' tool will show, incidentally, whether this effect is in play
11:01 mircea_popescu but the calls thing can be made any arbitrary size with a switch. you want it 16777216 rather than 65536 is the idea ?
11:01 asciilifeform what you'd want is to make the ~distance~ crossed by the call, >pagesize
11:02 mircea_popescu if you use up 16mn stack frames, they'll be multi-page like it or not.
11:02 asciilifeform can do this using stack, but will have to adjust the linux max, iirc it is ordinarily 2MB cap
11:02 mircea_popescu re the loops, i don't see the point in bothering with this there. we were checking loops, not the whole call mechanism, there.
11:03 asciilifeform no that makes sense
11:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but if i don't adjust the linux max for eulora, why the fuck would i care to do so for this test ?
11:03 asciilifeform is it clear what meant by 'distance' ?
11:04 mircea_popescu yes.
11:04 mircea_popescu you are saying that the delta between the address of the jump instruction and the address of the instruction it jumps to must be at least arbitrary number = page size.
11:05 asciilifeform aha
11:05 mircea_popescu but this can be factually insured in the model proggy for call testing, by making the DEPTH larger than the page size.
11:05 asciilifeform btw , to go with http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying , really oughta disasm a zcx variant and longjmp side by side and see what actually changes. ( when diana_coman comes back with working bins, i'ma set this up , for thread-co)
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11:05 asciilifeform mpleteness
11:05 mircea_popescu because there's no way in hell anyone can store 5mn procedure calls in 4mb ram.
11:05 * asciilifeform brb,teatime
11:15 mircea_popescu to continue the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-10#1894616 discussion / produce a benchmark for the republic's development : taking mining efficiency at 20 GH/joule (slightly above the antiminer s9) 40 exahash would be ~2 Gjoules.
11:15 a111 Logged on 2019-02-10 15:40 mircea_popescu: in other news, bitcoin difficulty looks like it's finally come out of the crazy and into economic coupling, check it out, past six months it's been evidently kept in place by fiat exchange rates.
11:19 mircea_popescu at this same time, world energy consumption (instantaneous) is about 10-20 terajoules (on the basis of primary energy generation/consumption for 2015 standing at 170/110 PWh) ;
11:21 mircea_popescu consequently bitcoin is merely using 0.02 to 0.01% of world energy generation, less than the 50%+1 it's supposed to use by a margin of say 5000.
11:22 mircea_popescu ie, bitcoin is 0.02% complete. yet something tells me the next ten years are going to see a lot more completion than the first ten.
11:23 mircea_popescu (the situation is actually better than that, seeing how most of those PWh are low quality energy in the shape of low temperature heat.)
11:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall your hypothesis re 'folx will heat house with miner' ?
11:32 mircea_popescu certainly.
11:32 mircea_popescu but this doesn't equal "folks will mine on own farts"
11:34 asciilifeform was thinking, pc is substantially easier to get hold of than miner (of any description), but somehow not so many folx heat house with'em ( part of this to do with the difficulty of usefully reselling cpu cycles ; but even asciilifeform , who eats plenty by lonesome , only covers perhaps 40% of heat for house via exhaust from the torture room fans )
11:34 asciilifeform somehow the 'house + dc' co
11:34 asciilifeform mbo is uncommon
11:35 mircea_popescu computers aren't nearly as important as bitcoin.
11:38 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2016/the-megawatt-standard/#comment-127869 << for thread completeness.
11:41 asciilifeform i suspect that 'heat house' aint happening, no matter what level of 'important'. obsolete miners even nao aint worth the cost of transport , floor space, or fan dusting / noise isolation, even to use as heater. whereas 'current' iron is ~unobtainable to commoner on acct of being a strategic good. and can't picture how this would change as 'important' goes up.
11:41 asciilifeform i.e. this will go approx same as the jp dream of 'home reactor'
11:42 mircea_popescu it's certainly happening, to the degree electric heating is happening currently.
11:43 asciilifeform resistance heater mostly happens in argentinas
11:43 mircea_popescu for as long as there's such a thing as a http://trilema.com/2016/cargo-cults-a-case-study/#selection-91.0-99.80 still left plugged in somewhere, a miner'd make better use of those watts.
11:43 asciilifeform ( it never wins on cost, in climate where heat pumping worx (avg. >0c) it is used, otherwise fossils win)
11:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but then again argentinas are usually the dumping grounds. most "old" phones ended up in africa.
11:44 mircea_popescu they ~will~ plug them in.
11:44 asciilifeform i can actually picture orcs heating with old miners, if they had the two neurons to rub together and get a boat loaded with'em
11:44 mircea_popescu the garbage boats come unasked.
11:45 asciilifeform wonder, who will be the hero to repackage the old asics as radiator with fins ( do you know anyone who wants equiv. of running shop vac at all times in bedroom ? that's what the extant asictrons resemble )
11:45 mircea_popescu anyway, there's a whole selection of current-ish miners available to consumer.
11:46 asciilifeform this is where i confess that i did not follow the subj actively in recent yr or 2, last time i tried to buy miner was some time during kako's reign
11:46 mircea_popescu whole http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-01#1877555 thing all over again : tank targetting and alf playing happened on the exact same board.
11:46 a111 Logged on 2018-12-01 21:23 asciilifeform: so, to extend lemma, atari ~because~ cheap ic, and not other way ?
11:46 mircea_popescu because of how ic works, it's cheaper to let consumers have the professional product than to make another special one for them.
11:47 asciilifeform that was a uniquely sovok phenomenon tho -- these folx were so poor that they could not afford konsoomer & mil separate lines
11:47 mircea_popescu same thing with cars and mass market in http://trilema.com/2010/masini-bune-si-masini-de-lux/#selection-53.0-53.130
11:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nobody can ever be as rich as all that.
11:48 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827422 << for illustration. sovok eeproms, sumthing like half a ~gram~ of au in ea.
11:48 a111 Logged on 2018-06-20 00:06 asciilifeform: su mil-grade logic tends to look like http://skupkadetaley.ru/data/image/catalog/k573rf4.jpg << ceramic, gold, direct copy of usa mil/orbit grade
11:48 asciilifeform and same ones used in nuke and in bk0010 schoolboy comp.
11:50 asciilifeform funnily enuff, they're still gettable despite 30 yrs of 'biznis' melting'em down for au.
11:50 mircea_popescu yes ; and if they found out a way to do without the au, they'd have taken it out of... both.
11:50 asciilifeform incidentally this sort of thing remains in play for modern ic, and is why old irons become scarce, at some pt becomes worth moar as au ore than to transport/run
11:50 mircea_popescu this is the fundamental point of ye above linked car article : if "luxury brands" come up with ~substantail improvements~, they're next year in the "mass market" cars.
11:51 asciilifeform nobody's found yet a way to make'em with 0 au.
11:51 mircea_popescu because wtf, you're not gonna put the better item in the mn-line, keep it for the 100s line ?
11:52 mircea_popescu so yes, bitcoin miners are strategic items, much like atari targetting systems. nevertheless -- perfectly available to consumer.
11:52 asciilifeform asciilifeform's proposition is that difficulty climb at some pt puts the older units into the zone where they're worth moar as au
11:54 asciilifeform ( i'ma take mircea_popescu's word for 'they are available to konsoomer' , evidently currently worth slightly moar as chump bait than as ore )
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11:56 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> resistance heater mostly happens in argentinas << Even Uruguay does heatpumps and bottled LPG
11:57 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it happens where sovok bldg manager refuses to switch on the central steam till december etc.
11:58 asciilifeform i used to live in 1, erry flat had buncha resistance heaters, fuses regularly blew .
11:59 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: There are 50s to 70's buildings here like that, but central heat even then is fairly rare. Past few decades climate control doctrine in Uruguay is based around a standard sized air conditioner. An apartment may have 1-3 of these, a house may have a double digit numer of these.
12:00 asciilifeform electric resistance heat is -ev insanity on pretty much 100% of planet, moar or less 100% of the time -- heat pump (if >0C) or gas (if <0C and there's ~any~ gas to be had , at just about any historical price) wins by fat margin
12:00 BingoBoingo Even in commercial construction... Recall the co-work roof
12:01 BingoBoingo Now there are a handful of buildings with size appropriate climate control here like the WTC towers, but they are the exceptions
12:02 BingoBoingo But the issue down here is not "a heatpump", but this one specific size of heatpump that's the only option they know.
12:03 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: as i understand , BingoBoingostan is theoretically idea heatpump country
12:03 asciilifeform *ideal
12:03 asciilifeform i.e. scarcely ever <0C
12:04 asciilifeform that the orcs dun realize this, and continue to build blocks of flats with no heat and where each orc sets up propane burner in his deathtrap, is entirely separate puzzler
12:06 mircea_popescu certainly stupid idea, it takes 3 watts of steam (the "low quality low temperature heat" from above) to make 1 watt of electricity. why the fuck would you turn around and make low temperature heat out of that ?!
12:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896462 << this not taking anyone's word, it is being an offensive, raging asshole.
12:07 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 16:54 asciilifeform: ( i'ma take mircea_popescu's word for 'they are available to konsoomer' , evidently currently worth slightly moar as chump bait than as ore )
12:07 mircea_popescu what fucking chump bait are you the fuck on about in your own solipsist hell entirely lost to any reason ?
12:07 asciilifeform what instead should i call miner that eats 500 $ / mo of current to produce bitcent ?
12:08 mircea_popescu the bitcoin miner you alf could buy today is slightly, but not much, worse than the bitcoin miner the strategic mining op could buy today ; and it is slightly better (but not much) than the average miner the average strategic op has currently deployed and running.
12:08 mircea_popescu yes, it's true most of those for-profit mining ops are located in places with cheaper electricity than yours. HOWEVER, this is not a discussion of ~the miner~ but of expensive government you ~opt to support~.
12:09 mircea_popescu fucking move, if you don't like paying 5 cents for electro-watt and a further 10 cents so mammie mc nigger fatass can afford lube and happy meals every time you burn a watt.
12:09 asciilifeform let's stipulate that this is true (i.e. that what's sold to konsoomer currently is only coupla notches obsolete.) i thought that orig 'heat house' hypothesis was re arbitrary degree of obsolescence.
12:10 mircea_popescu no. the original hypothesis was that the same exact item you alf could buy, ie, slightly worse than the best and slightly better than average deployment, will be inserted into eg ceramic tiles, and allow for applications where people don't so much give a fuck.
12:10 mircea_popescu because i WILL heat my bathroom floor so my whores can suck my cock barefoot rather than live in frigid 80s sovoklands.
12:10 mircea_popescu and i don't care what it costs
12:11 mircea_popescu but i don't care what it costs in the sense i will have it done, not in the sense that i will have it done in the most expensive way possible. if there's bitcoin mining tiles and simple tiles available, i am buying the former.
12:11 asciilifeform if actually 'don't care what costs', why not yet paid to have boatload of 5yo asics actually baked into tiles and installed in castle mircea_popescustein ?
12:11 asciilifeform what's the obstacle ?
12:11 mircea_popescu because i don't care about tiles enough to make my own yet.
12:12 asciilifeform right. so hypothesis requires then that it is viable commercially, i.e. someone other than mircea_popescu give enuff damn to bake'em into tiles.
12:12 asciilifeform and this not happened yet. why not ?
12:12 mircea_popescu except as per teh "three ring binder" theory, it doesn't actually require anything besides their being made.
12:12 mircea_popescu which will also happen, necessarily.
12:13 mircea_popescu why necessary event has not happened yet is sometimes explicable (if sun will burn out eventually, then why not yet ?!?!) but not always (say mom, if i'm gonna lose my virginity eventually, how come no girl fucked me yet ?!?!?!")
12:17 asciilifeform hm.
12:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu do you think we oughta be making tiles ?
12:18 mircea_popescu it seems to me premature yet. on my judgement, there was a lot of optimisim at the chump level re obama's bullshit electro-rooves. that will have to blow over, as it was a scam. consumer market will reel a while in disdain-distrust of "such nonsense".
12:18 mircea_popescu then next generation will make bitcoin mining houses.
12:18 mircea_popescu so i expect to see it before i die, but i do not expect to spend anything on it this mid term.
12:18 asciilifeform makes sense.
12:19 mircea_popescu this is an ancient theme, even appears in say the gladstone speech you asked for recently. "first man, spent 1/4mn pounds, got no coal. 2nd man, spent 100k, got no coal. 3rd man got coal"
12:19 mircea_popescu the problem with economically useful preciction isn't getting the trends right, it's getting the timing right.
12:21 asciilifeform 'pioneer is the fella with arrow in his back' eh
12:22 mircea_popescu quite.
12:22 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896331 << no. i gather you're not seeing this issue on your own machine? vdiff treats links the way diff did, as a completely new file, including the content
12:22 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 04:09 trinque: it looks like both the symlink and the path symlinked commingled
12:22 asciilifeform ohai phf
12:23 phf hey
12:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: could even say nao is 'bitcoin winter', the sorts of folx inclined to stuff head up arse are stuffing deeper than ever and boasting
12:24 mircea_popescu i dunno how i could say that, looking at teh data. it's not about what social media says, nothing ever is.
12:25 asciilifeform i dun read 'soshulmeadia', dun have any data other than 'no one seems to be offering 20k orc dubloons for coin like yr ago, just nao'
12:26 mircea_popescu anyway, re above trends : there's a very visible trend in energy generation away from low quality and towards high quality. this means absolutely a move away from everything and into nuclear. as nuclear increases and fossils drop, the outlook will significantly change -- eg in romania i'd have not even considered heating on any other premise than natgas ; bathroom had eg towel rack consisting of hot water pipes and other such
12:26 mircea_popescu purely yurpean luxuries.
12:26 asciilifeform ( and ftr i dun hate winter, either 'bitcoin' or of the ordinary kind, winter is a-ok for so long as you aint stuck in the wind w/out a coat )
12:26 mircea_popescu but the natgas will run out ; and the little house-sized powerplants that it enables will go away, i can't burn pitch in there.
12:27 mircea_popescu and once they go away, what will i use ? there's a case for using electricity for heating if MOST of energy produced is electricity. because heating relatively small outlay, all things considered.
12:27 phf trinque: i'm going to play with some link combinations, but perhaps it would be worthwhile to at least check if the named file exists on the system after failed genesis production.
12:29 phf i've been looking at getting x11 working for cp101a but not on top of cuntoo. i'm going to take a break and attempt a build myself. i might run into the issue also
12:31 mircea_popescu consider the math : i go out to eat, i eat at $100 a plate joint. i go out for a show, or a bender, or a casino trip, or what have you, i come back thousands lighter. meanwhile what's your living space, 100 sqm ? 1000 sqm ? you'll get fucking lost in an acre, really. with modern insulation what's the lossage, a few cents a day ? how THE FUCK will you care so much about the cent as to go cold rather than use electricity, while
12:31 mircea_popescu caring so much about dinner ?
~ 45 minutes ~
13:16 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/02/clicking-on-terrorist-content-felonized-in-airstrip-one/ << Qntra -- Clicking On "Terrorist Content" Felonized In Airstrip One
13:16 asciilifeform !!up drunk_foxx
13:16 deedbot drunk_foxx voiced for 30 minutes.
13:17 asciilifeform drunk_foxx: better be quick
13:26 asciilifeform aanybody have any idea who ^ is ?
13:26 asciilifeform !!down drunk_foxx
13:26 * asciilifeform briefly wondered if ben_vulpes
13:33 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/il-corpo-della-ragassa/ << Trilema -- Il corpo della ragassa
~ 32 minutes ~
14:06 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896356 -> this finished: the signature still does not verify; trinque let me know if you want to see the result of this run too
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14:06 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 07:40 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896320 -> hm, trinque, do you suspect it's really just down to V version? I can easily re-run the thing with a V pressed to same node as yours to rule that out, if that's the case
14:17 diana_coman re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896383 -> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/o2h67/?raw=true (that's the version including a handler and obv, there are in fact 3 procedures A, B, C, with each calling the other two or one of the other two; MT is the Mersenne Twister Ada implementation I did for the UDP test)
14:17 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 07:55 mircea_popescu: diana_coman : btw, here's my current model for the calling timing harness : write three procedures, A B C. have each of these 1. increment a global counter, X ; 2. check if X is over a max value ; 3. if it is not, have each call either one or the other of the other two randomly ; 4. if X is over max value, have them simply return.
14:18 diana_coman ftr with exception handlers the main trouble is simply that the sjlj overflows the stack very quickly; so far not as much any clear difference in *speed* but certainly a difference in stack space used
14:19 asciilifeform diana_coman: how quickly is 'very' ? ( can haz numeric ? e.g. 'zxc eats 1kb per level of depth, sjlj - 2kb' )
14:19 diana_coman mircea_popescu, let me know if that's the sort of thing you had in mind or not
14:20 diana_coman asciilifeform, yes, data set contains...data, lol; but will publish it all when full or at least when at some point to decide further or otherwise we keep going back and forth
14:21 asciilifeform ok
14:21 asciilifeform diana_coman: if you have time, plox post a pair of bins so that i can http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896414 tonight
14:21 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 16:05 asciilifeform: btw , to go with http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying , really oughta disasm a zcx variant and longjmp side by side and see what actually changes. ( when diana_coman comes back with working bins, i'ma set this up , for thread-co)
14:21 diana_coman atm I still have to get to the bottom of the "ave1 gnat with sjlj"
14:21 asciilifeform ( from ancient gnat will suffice for time being , for that )
14:22 diana_coman right; as soon as mircea_popescu confirms the code is what he wanted, will do
14:22 asciilifeform aite, i'ma do it to the variant mircea_popescu goes with
14:24 asciilifeform diana_coman: ideally when you do this, tar up not only the final bin but the contents of obj dir
14:24 asciilifeform ( we aren't so much concerned with the 3MB standard lib )
14:24 diana_coman k, will tar up the whole dir
14:24 asciilifeform ty
14:25 * mircea_popescu reading
14:26 mircea_popescu diana_coman take out the Encrypt(KS, Plain, Encr); line, this is just empty procedure calls.
14:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i cannot resist to ask, is it 'ragassa' and not 'ragazza' ? ( was it a sicilianism or wat )
14:28 mircea_popescu because they're talking veneto.
↖
14:28 diana_coman oh, no serpent in there ? it'll run VERY fast though i.e. 0.039s sort of thing
14:28 asciilifeform a aaa.
14:28 mircea_popescu diana_coman well, that's what the x knob is for.
14:28 mircea_popescu from previous experience if we get it to 1-3 s we're far into convergence territory anyway.
14:28 diana_coman and you know, worse in the sense that you get 0.0039 on one run and 0.0095 on another
14:29 mircea_popescu hm ?
14:29 * diana_coman goes to run it a few times without the serpent
14:31 diana_coman confirmed: with max=65535, no serpent (i.e. empty calls only), I got 0.004, 0.009, 0.007, 0.005 (without sjlj)
14:31 diana_coman <diana_coman> oh, no serpent in there ? it'll run VERY fast though i.e. 0.039s sort of thing -> darn, that's 0.0039
14:32 mircea_popescu diana_coman try with 16777216 then.
14:32 * diana_coman goes to try
14:32 asciilifeform diana_coman: fwiw the noise floor on e.g my test box, is 0.003 (i.e. a proggy with empty main)
14:41 mircea_popescu talking of space heaters, inb4 her house burned down.
14:42 * asciilifeform not yet burned down, but managed to overhead $box recently
14:42 asciilifeform *overheat
14:44 mircea_popescu anyway, on the upside, it is not possible x= 16777216 can be accomodated on any stack pages of any extant or soon to be devised irons, it still needs at least 4 bytes per call if not 52.
14:44 diana_coman uhm, it overflows the stack and either the linker switch I'm using is not working or it can't make it
14:44 mircea_popescu diana_coman possibly have to alter the linux config alf was mentioning it, blows out the 2mb stack max default.
14:45 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform found that ye olde box cannot actually sustain 100% 8-core for 2+hrs. trips sensor. quite annoying. )
14:45 mircea_popescu try ulimit -a
14:47 diana_coman stacksize 8192kbytes
14:47 mircea_popescu so setrlimit to whatever is reasonable (here i'd expect no less than 832mb)
14:48 mircea_popescu can set it back when done, it happens to be one of the more sensible / useful limits in there, which is why few even know about it.
14:49 * diana_coman is waiting for it to finish now
14:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i've had to up stack depth on 1 occasion before -- when testing ffa with ridiculously wide bitnesses ( recall, item runs 100% stackistically )
14:51 diana_coman uhm, I set ulimit -s 900000 ; it shows, confirmed at that with either ulimit -a or ulimit -s; set it from the linker option too; prog still overflows in the end; and if I try MORE than that from ulimit -s I get bash: ulimit: stack size: cannot modify limit: Operation not permitted
14:53 asciilifeform ugh is there a hard max ?!
14:53 asciilifeform ( and it's lower than installed ram?! )
14:53 diana_coman apparently I need to dig into this more
14:54 * diana_coman goes to dig in bash confs
14:55 asciilifeform iirc on some kernels 'ulimit -s unlimited' worked
14:55 diana_coman not on this one, I tried it
15:03 diana_coman right: Starting Calls run with 3 procs and Max value 16777216; Calls run X = 22368144 took 1.258959000 seconds.
15:04 diana_coman the value of X is final value and it changes a bit depending on the seed for MT
15:04 diana_coman mircea_popescu, ^
15:06 mircea_popescu diana_coman i don't get it, so it crashed with 16mn but worked with 22mn ?
15:06 mircea_popescu or is the idea you meanwhile fixed the stack size issue
15:06 diana_coman I fixed the stack issue
15:07 mircea_popescu a cool. ok, so 22mn takes 1.25 s i'd say it's in the zone, and we're good as such.
15:07 mircea_popescu now for teh sjlj
15:09 mircea_popescu (it will doubtless be MUCH larger, but the issue here is time not so much space)
15:09 diana_coman ugh, I still have that 1 exception handler per proc and with sjlj it overflows ofc; let me re-run it wihtout any exception handlers in it first, both with and without sjlj
15:11 mircea_popescu alright ; then try smaller sizes, x=4m might fit for both for instance, and it's still in the zone.
15:12 diana_coman mircea_popescu, just to make sure you get this straight: Max is one thing, the final X is another i.e. the final X really counts how many times procs got entered; the max value means procs stop calling others (but note that the x=x+1 is done before the check precisely because I wanted to know how many calls)
15:13 diana_coman so X will be bigger than max generally because of the "calls 2 procs"
15:15 diana_coman Starting Calls run with 3 procs and Max value 16777216; Calls run X = 22368144 took 0.900212000 seconds.
15:15 diana_coman i.e. same as above with Max at 16.77mn (but real X at 22.36mn) without sjlj -> 0.9s
15:16 diana_coman with sjlj: Starting Calls run with 3 procs and Max value 16777216;Calls run X = 22368144 took 0.903548000 seconds.
15:27 diana_coman aaand this is it, docs apparently right: fully cleaned up (i.e. none of the serpent vars + init anymore either), max value 16777216, x 22368144; with NO handlers it's 0.9s no sjlj and 0.03 with sjlj; same but WITH 1 handler per proc turns into 1.06s without sjlj and 158.87s with sjlj
15:28 mircea_popescu diana_coman but they're parametrically related.
15:30 mircea_popescu diana_coman wait wait, so it's in fact a HUGE penalty to use zcx is you have no extra handlers ?
15:31 diana_coman you mean in that you don't actually gain anything but lose ability to abort asynchronously among other things?
15:32 mircea_popescu specifically stated, this program takes to run : 1 with sjlh, no handlers ; 30 (up 3000%) with zcx, irrespective of handler count ; 5295 (a further 200% up) with sjlj and one extra handler.
15:32 mircea_popescu ie, what the docs don't say is the juciest bit at all : if you do not have extra handlers, zcx is MASSACRING you on calls.
15:33 mircea_popescu diana_coman can we do with 2 and 3 extra handlers as a bonus plox ?
15:35 diana_coman ugh, either I fat-fingered there or what; let me run that again ; (and possibly /me should really stop getting data *other* than in a nice plain table)
15:36 diana_coman and yes, then I'll do with 2 and 3 handlers too
15:36 mircea_popescu kk
15:36 mircea_popescu but that 0.9 vs 0.03 is popping the fuck out.
15:36 diana_coman hence I suspect I fat-fingered it because I don't remember popping out when I read in console
15:36 mircea_popescu kk
15:37 * diana_coman goes to run and will be back with proper data
15:40 * asciilifeform nao wonders if there's a seekrit chest fulla ffa speedup in this dig
15:42 mircea_popescu you know ?!
15:42 mircea_popescu it really blew my fucking mind! ZERO COST, they said!!!
15:43 mircea_popescu (in fairness though, no program ever does the sort of calling insanity we do here, so irl this may be very mild indeed)
15:45 mircea_popescu !Qcalc 158.87/22368144
15:45 lobbesbot mircea_popescu: 7.10251150028e-06
15:45 mircea_popescu ^even handled sjlj is not really that bad, 7us per call far far from end of world.
15:47 * asciilifeform goes to test..
15:49 * asciilifeform finds that (using pre-ave1 gnat, where i currently can --RTS=sjlj ) no detectable diff in mod ex
15:50 asciilifeform this does not contradict the hypothesis re handlers tho ( i have only the 'last chance' handler ). it does suggest that sjlj does not speed up ordinary calls substantially tho.
15:50 diana_coman no, fat-fingered it, 0 instead of 9 i.e it was 0.93 not 0.03; sorry about that; still running atm the 1 handler with sjlj and then will move on to 2 and 3 handlers
15:51 diana_coman all those tests are on Adacore's 2016 gnat, yes
15:51 mircea_popescu a a! so it's 0.9 vs 0.93 ?
15:51 diana_coman yes
15:51 mircea_popescu aok. i can take my tin foil off now.
15:52 diana_coman sorry; I should know by now to not hurry up with data report even if it's just 2 runs
15:53 mircea_popescu no harm done
15:53 diana_coman I still don't see the boo-boo of docs i.e ~"all programs should see a great improvement running zcx" or how was it
15:57 mircea_popescu prolly a bunch of try()catch semantics in "all programs"
16:04 diana_coman ah, that'd explain it, wouldn't it: by the time "programming" is direct translation of fuzzing into code, it'd possibly speed up, yes
16:05 mircea_popescu aha.
~ 48 minutes ~
16:53 diana_coman mircea_popescu and anyone else following along, here's the data from a set of runs with handlers from 0 to 3: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/9Cstd/?raw=true
↖
16:59 diana_coman in other things, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-11#1894896 -> this should now be fully sorted i.e. IP change for dianacoman.com propagated as far as I can see + redirection working fine for any link so please let me know if you still encounter trouble with any dead links; if you use only hosts (no DNS) then simply adding dianacoman.com on same IP as ossasepia should work seamlessly
16:59 a111 Logged on 2019-02-11 01:33 hanbot: diana_coman fwiw i ran into a few broken internal links on ossasepia today on account of their still pointing to dianacoman.com, see http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/08/eucrypt-compilation-sheet/ fo' instance.
17:04 diana_coman asciilifeform, any preference re "pair of bins" i.e. the procedure calls or the loops of yest?
17:05 diana_coman or both?
17:18 diana_coman asciilifeform, here are the latest aka proc calls with 3 handlers per proc: ossasepia.com/available_resources/bins_calls_sjlj_adacoregnat.tar.gz and ossasepia.com/available_resources/bins_calls_zcx_adacoregnat.tar.gz ; let me know if you want anything else
17:23 asciilifeform ty diana_coman ! i'ma look
17:28 asciilifeform diana_coman: the 'zcx' tarball contains a 'ljmp_calls' dir, same as other 1. which is correct ?
17:28 diana_coman asciilifeform, the name of the tarball is correct; you'll have to change the name of the dir /put them separate
17:28 asciilifeform aa ok
17:34 asciilifeform diana_coman: btw your 'lick the 9v' intuitive observation earlier was correct, on ljmp variant the default stack frame indeed longer, 184byte vs 40
17:35 asciilifeform though, interestingly, only in the unit 'procs' , which actually contains exceptionisms
17:36 asciilifeform err, 'procs' and 'mt'
17:36 asciilifeform at the risk of log clutter, will put ftr :
17:36 asciilifeform zcxistic :
17:36 asciilifeform 0000000000000000 <procs__a>:
17:36 asciilifeform 0: 55 push %rbp
17:36 asciilifeform 1: 48 89 e5 mov %rsp,%rbp
17:36 asciilifeform 4: 41 55 push %r13
17:36 asciilifeform 6: 41 54 push %r12
17:36 asciilifeform 8: 53 push %rbx
17:36 asciilifeform 9: 48 83 ec 28 sub $0x28,%rsp
17:36 asciilifeform longjmpistic:
17:37 asciilifeform 0000000000000000 <procs__a>:
17:37 asciilifeform 0: 55 push %rbp
17:37 asciilifeform 1: 48 89 e5 mov %rsp,%rbp
17:37 asciilifeform 4: 41 57 push %r15
17:37 asciilifeform 6: 41 56 push %r14
17:37 asciilifeform 8: 41 55 push %r13
17:37 asciilifeform a: 41 54 push %r12
17:37 asciilifeform c: 53 push %rbx
17:37 asciilifeform d: 48 81 ec b8 00 00 00 sub $0xb8,%rsp
17:40 mircea_popescu so really just pushes two more regs is all.
17:45 diana_coman hm, doesn't look that bad
17:45 mircea_popescu ftr that's 52 bytes (ha-HA!) vs 60 bytes.
17:46 asciilifeform for thread-completeness : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/zcx_proc_flow.png http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/ljmp_proc_flow.png
17:47 asciilifeform ( before anyone asks, the 'unwind resume' variants are extern stdlib symbols, and i haven't looked to see how they differ yet )
17:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: where 50 and 60 ?
17:48 mircea_popescu procs_a vs procs_a
17:48 asciilifeform 0x28 == 40 , 0xb8 == 184
17:48 asciilifeform the stack frame, that is
17:48 asciilifeform plus moar killed regs
17:49 asciilifeform but indeed the ljmp variant craps out slightly bulkier coad across the board
17:49 asciilifeform ( to 0 measurable diff in ffa, oddly enuff, but on e.g. tiny micros might make a diff.. )
17:50 mircea_popescu look here : lines 1 through 9 in zcx add up to 13 bytes, yes ?
17:50 asciilifeform aa your were speaking of coad mass
17:50 asciilifeform then yes
17:50 asciilifeform and see above
17:50 mircea_popescu the observation that perhaps sjlj is not actually as tightly optimized as zcx is trying to percolate through my brain
17:50 asciilifeform i was discussing diana_coman's much earlier empirical find, that on ljmp stack fills faster per same # of calls. this here is why.
17:50 mircea_popescu whence 184 ?!
17:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the stack frame.
17:50 mircea_popescu but why so big ?
17:51 asciilifeform sub $0xXX,%rsp
17:51 mircea_popescu no i know where you got the sub param from, what im asking is,
17:51 asciilifeform cuz it keeps the where to longjmp in'ere.
17:51 mircea_popescu what does it do with the rest of the frame, from the bytes we see to the 184 ?
17:53 asciilifeform 1s
17:54 mircea_popescu (the 52 is cuz i took the 13 items and multiplied by 4, forgetting that these are actually byte alligned not 64-bit alligned)
17:56 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/zcx_procs.asm http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/ljmp_procs.asm
↖
17:58 mircea_popescu why ty!
17:58 asciilifeform ^ in classic intelistic form, and with decoded debug symbols
17:58 asciilifeform yw mircea_popescu
18:01 asciilifeform also loox like the ljmp variant puts abortism stub in erry proc (that appears in a task, that is)
18:02 mircea_popescu it does.
18:02 asciilifeform ( will guess, tho i do not presently know, that these trigger unwind of stack )
18:04 * asciilifeform currently wondering wtf https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/ud is doing in there
18:04 asciilifeform it is only in ljmp-variant
18:04 asciilifeform ( which is why asciilifeform never saw it in gnat disasms prior )
18:04 mircea_popescu yes!
18:05 asciilifeform i'ma guess it is for word-alignment (why not ordinary nop ?? )
18:05 * asciilifeform is prolly doomed to actually vivisect the gnat backend at some pt, prolly sooner rather than later
18:06 mircea_popescu loc_44E: << this entire thing\
18:06 asciilifeform in which
18:06 asciilifeform aa ljmp
18:06 mircea_popescu sjlj
18:07 mircea_popescu why jz rather tthan sub ?
18:07 mircea_popescu im sorry. why jz rather than jmp or w/e
18:08 asciilifeform cuz it's the 2nd half of a conditional ?
18:08 asciilifeform test eax, eax
18:08 asciilifeform jz somewhere
18:08 diana_coman I'm atm doing the inventory of ave1's versions of gnat scripts and apparently even 2018-05-29 relies on downloading stuff that meanwhile moved/vanished as they always do; moreover, I have the darned stuff , now need to figure out how to cut out the download and just point the script at local source, ugh
18:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but i mean, test eax, eax ?
18:08 asciilifeform i.e. loox like is a flag that triggers an unwind
18:08 mircea_popescu what's being tested ?
18:09 asciilifeform i suspect mircea_popescu dun habitually read gcc barf
18:09 asciilifeform want expand ?
18:09 mircea_popescu rather, i can't shake this impression that sjlj saddles us with two segments of overhead
18:10 mircea_popescu one that's due to the method, and the other that's due to the fact zcx was a lot narrowly-er massaged
18:11 asciilifeform var_B8 contains some flag. valid values are 0, 1, 2, 3. if 0, we go to loc_490. if 1, loc_601. if 2, loc_62d. if 3, loc_659. if above 4, program dies, cpu executes ud2 (guaranteed bomb) .
18:12 asciilifeform 490 is various mechanics, ends with _Unwind_SjLj_Resume .
18:12 asciilifeform the rest, i will omit, but also end up in the various unwindisms, aborts, stubs.
18:13 asciilifeform aah lol i'm a tard :
18:13 asciilifeform they're diana_coman's exception handlers.
18:14 * asciilifeform prolly oughta have read the orig adb prior to doing this
18:14 mircea_popescu are you basically saying this sub eax, 1 ; test eax, eax ; jz loc_601 is optimal approach ?
18:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's what gcc does for small (i dun recall threshhold) computed switch
18:14 asciilifeform for larger, does a computed jump
18:15 asciilifeform it's 'optimal' in the sense that it fucks the branch predictor less than an always-computed-jump
18:16 mircea_popescu yet zcx does cmp rdx, 3 ; jz loc_50C
18:16 mircea_popescu (did i identify the same segment correctly ?)
18:16 asciilifeform lessee..
18:16 mircea_popescu which is more compact ; and perhaps quicker too ?
18:16 asciilifeform zcx hands-down moar compact
18:16 asciilifeform at least where routine appears in a task
18:16 mircea_popescu well so then what are we disagreeing here about.
18:16 asciilifeform nuffin yet, afaik
18:17 mircea_popescu aite.
18:17 asciilifeform i sawed it open to try an' see how thefuq the longjmp thing actually worx
18:17 asciilifeform and precisely why slower (and where even slower)
18:17 asciilifeform on sane people planet i could determine this by reading the motherfucking docs
18:18 asciilifeform whereas here..
18:18 mircea_popescu one part of the problem might be that sjlj comes from a time before, when insanities like that snippet above were standard. but no time since the millenium do you see it instead of the cmp etc.
18:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: opposite. cmp is ~3x slower than 'test'
18:18 asciilifeform cuz it does a subtract, see
18:19 asciilifeform test simply ORs the bits in register together (and this happens by default when you load it, cuz it's costless electrically)
18:19 mircea_popescu supposedly not anymore.
18:19 asciilifeform think, cmp can only work by subtracting
18:19 mircea_popescu i agree with THAT part.
18:19 asciilifeform (so it actually locks the pipe and waits for both operands to become available)
18:19 asciilifeform hm so which 'not anymore' ?
18:19 mircea_popescu yeah but the pipe is built such that this is also ~0 cost electrically
18:20 asciilifeform mno, if you lock the pipe, you lock the pipe, that reg aint available for reorderism
18:20 asciilifeform whereas if you didn't touch it, it then is
18:20 asciilifeform ( recall, we're on a reorderism arch )
18:20 mircea_popescu well, i won't trust my own understanding of asm and contemporary cpus as far as i can throw it ; but if indeed the operands in zcx impl were slower, you'd see it take less time!!!1
18:21 asciilifeform diana_coman does seem to have crafted a testism where it does
18:22 mircea_popescu nope ?
18:22 asciilifeform ( btw the obj reason why none of this is visible in ffa -- there aint any tasks! so even in ljmp mode it shits out same coad )
18:22 mircea_popescu she corrected the numbers, it's 90 for zcx 93 for sjlj at the best.
18:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do i misread the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896636 run ?
18:22 a111 Logged on 2019-02-14 21:53 diana_coman: mircea_popescu and anyone else following along, here's the data from a set of runs with handlers from 0 to 3: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/9Cstd/?raw=true
18:23 mircea_popescu gimme a break, that first instance ?
18:23 asciilifeform e.g. for 3 handlers, 3 | 1.329 | 446.821
18:23 asciilifeform ( zcx on left hand, ljmp on right )
18:24 mircea_popescu 400 seconds vs 1 second ?
18:24 asciilifeform aha
18:24 mircea_popescu if the zcx's cmp WERE slower than sjlj's test, then we should see the latter be faster on 0 handlers than the former!
18:25 mircea_popescu leaving compactness aside for the moment
18:25 asciilifeform seems like the diff only comes into play when there is 1 or moar ?
18:25 asciilifeform ( based strictly on diana_coman's output )
18:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 'test' vs 'cmp' thing is microscopic , so arguably red herring here
18:26 asciilifeform ( it's make a serious diff inside an inner loop, but here we have it in exception handler, which aint )
18:27 asciilifeform i was answering q of 'why does gcc put out this odd form for a computed goto'.
18:27 mircea_popescu kinda what i understood, that cmp USED TO BE expensive, but is no longer.
18:27 mircea_popescu but anyways!
18:27 * asciilifeform would kill for an accurate tick table for opteron. but none exists ( possibly when i have msdos gnat, can bake one..)
18:27 asciilifeform ( the rub is that ticks depend heavily on context, on a reorderistic cpu )
18:28 mircea_popescu myeah.
18:28 mircea_popescu not likely a scalar table.
18:29 asciilifeform for all i know, not even a computable function, lol
18:29 mircea_popescu nevertheless, the point has legs -- what we've done here very much can be done ands re-done, and with cuntoo/ada-gnat/etc stack spitting out statics, it might even come close.
18:29 mircea_popescu in no case do i know of anyone who has actual data re such things as "ok, so manual claims, but NUMBERS for this penalty"
18:29 * asciilifeform would really instead like a cpu where erry instruction takes 1 tick, fuck errything. but presently dunhave.
18:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: manual is silent, for the most part, on subj.
18:30 asciilifeform they haven't printed 'tick table' since old pentium.
18:30 asciilifeform i.e. when introduced reorderism & pipes.
18:30 * asciilifeform actually has the manuals, intel's and amd's, they eat a good bit of shelf
18:31 mircea_popescu yes, but we can actually print it, if we get that bored.
18:31 asciilifeform they also dun do much good! if i had a wood furnace, i'dve stoked it with'em by nao
18:31 mircea_popescu precisely through same process as yielded here, timings for serpent etc, there's readily recognizable meta-structures
18:31 mircea_popescu end up with converged values and whatever else, put them in a matrix and have a matrix-table.
18:32 asciilifeform eh and then you make your case switch 4-legged instead of 3 somewhere, and all readings change.
18:32 asciilifeform for no describable reason.
18:32 asciilifeform this is why most 'i'ma do it in asm!' folx by nao have drunk to death.
18:33 asciilifeform yer talking to 1 of the few remaining. (and perhaps only because asciilifeform dun often asm , knows measure)
18:33 asciilifeform it's a shit arch.
18:34 mircea_popescu why you do the matrix in the first place. you identify the attactors and so on
18:34 mircea_popescu it'll be scientific programming for once.
18:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a stateful box of ??? ( rumour is, not even orig vendor can fully describe the phase space )
18:35 mircea_popescu nevertheless it's a finite phase space. imagine, if we end up having docs intel doesn't.
18:35 asciilifeform and then you pick up chip made on a tuesday, and it has diff mechanics than what they sold on wednesday of same wk.
18:36 * asciilifeform seen many times
18:36 asciilifeform it aint a z80, thing is finite yes, but coupla MB of state .
18:37 asciilifeform which is not to say that you can say ~nothing~ -- can say many things (e.g. the point re the reorder lock, stands for all current x86 irons)
18:40 mircea_popescu (this may sound far-fetched to our foreign friends ; but the exact thing happened to me before.
18:40 mircea_popescu diana_coman was there, even!
18:40 asciilifeform also did not say that profiling is useless, profiling -- worx, and is a must for anyffin where you actually give a fuck re performance. but what we aint got on pc, is anything like an actual grasp of wtf the thing does and precisely why.
18:40 mircea_popescu but this can be wrested out from it!
18:40 mircea_popescu and the mechanism that'll work on intell will then work on xilinx, and so on.
18:40 mircea_popescu software's faster than hardware.
18:41 asciilifeform with thinking, rather than brute force ( nobody will live to see even 2^128 bit of phase space walked via brute force, do the arithm )
18:41 asciilifeform and it's exactly what asciilifeform intends to do to e.g. the bolix.
18:41 asciilifeform but requires a bit deeper cut than 'i'ma run $snippet and time'
18:43 mircea_popescu surely.
18:43 asciilifeform !#s mk61
18:43 a111 6 results for "mk61", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=mk61
18:44 asciilifeform ^ ancient sovok programmable calculator. had entire subculture, of , among other things, 'eggogology'
18:44 asciilifeform i.e. exploring undefined instructions
18:44 asciilifeform much noise was made re the peculiar results of running various
18:44 asciilifeform but for 30 yrs the aficionados had nfi what thing actually did when eggoged. until microscopist.
18:44 asciilifeform what found, was that the 'eggog instrs' were meant to be various floatingpointisms, that didn't work out in the last chip revision, and so left out of the manual
18:45 asciilifeform so produced garbage ( but ordered!111 and therefore fascinating!111 to certain folx ) garbage.
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18:45 mircea_popescu hahaha
18:45 mircea_popescu ok that's a great one.
18:46 asciilifeform this sorta thing happens to this day.
18:46 mircea_popescu im sure
18:47 asciilifeform ( and think, that was a ~hand-drawn~ chip, with coupla thou. transistor. )
18:49 asciilifeform http://www.artem.ru/calc/2.jpg << subj is under the large white paint stain.
18:49 asciilifeform ( surprise ? they had smt pcb in sovok )
18:52 asciilifeform in ru there are some decent microscopists ( not the 1 phf went to, but apparently others. ) for instance, very recently found that К1801 ( sovok 'pdp-11' single-chip ) was ~not~ in fact a photoclone of dec's (only the early '80s demo ver was!) but , turns out, entirely indigenous orc design, with coupla x ~fewer~ transistors and yet faster max clock
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18:52 asciilifeform ( interestingly, still produced! at privatized 'angstrom co', but not sold to humans afaik )
18:53 asciilifeform very decent chip, btw, 150,000 16-bit multiplications / sec., and addressed 4MB.
18:54 asciilifeform one could actually ffa on that ( if somehow find one ! )
18:55 diana_coman ahahah, that garbage story is great
18:56 asciilifeform https://pmk.arbinada.com/node/12 << for the troo aficionado.
18:57 asciilifeform contains such things as 'beasts', 'werewolves', 'darkness' , 'monsters', all named 'effects'
18:57 asciilifeform on that 1 calc
18:57 asciilifeform and all cuz the folx at 'angstron' didn't have laser, like intel's, to snip off the defective chunk of the ic on conveyor, lol
18:58 diana_coman this eggogology sounds like a candidate euloran skill or something, lol
18:59 asciilifeform for folx who dun ru -- eggogs had 'depth', which referred to how many ops you persisted with after already eggoging
18:59 diana_coman at any rate, I think it would make a far better item to send kids to investigate than many "projects"
19:00 asciilifeform ( before mircea_popescu answers 'holy mother of fuck, this is chemically-pure wankery' -- yes, it was. but imho still beats shit out of redditism. )
19:00 * asciilifeform was given 'mk61' at same age i think diana_coman's kid is nao
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19:01 asciilifeform 'hand me down' from elder.
19:07 mircea_popescu lol diana_coman
19:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no dude, as she points out, it's eulorism avant la lettre.
19:08 * asciilifeform can see it..
19:09 asciilifeform i would almost say 'i had moar fun with that thing than ever did with pc', but this is prolly http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-18#1888232 -effect.
19:09 a111 Logged on 2019-01-18 17:49 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-18#1888188 << oh hey , was this same grandfather as 'i miss stalin, we were younger then' ?
19:13 * asciilifeform for yrs nao has wanted to build some boxen around sovok k1801, but was never able to justify the sweat in light of war effort -- the demand for iron wallets and similar , even among folx with 3rd eye open, seems to be pretty minimal.
19:15 asciilifeform 4MB aint enuff to e.g. trb inside. tho 1 could rsa in it.
19:16 asciilifeform ( or boot sysv unix, if yer a masochist )
19:16 asciilifeform asciilifeform's brother worked on 1, in '90 or so. thing powered a hall of 32 glass terminals , occupied ~24/7 by hungry undergrads
19:17 asciilifeform sysop kicked the drum disk to get it goin'.
~ 17 minutes ~
19:35 * asciilifeform won a http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/ in trilemalotto today. classic piece, but observe that clicking on the 'internal' footnote linx throws the selector script into same bug as on asciilifeform's site
19:38 mircea_popescu hm ?!
19:38 mircea_popescu i select, clicked footnote, select again, it works throughout ?
19:38 asciilifeform grr couldn't reproduce 2nd time
19:39 asciilifeform all the moar headachy
19:39 asciilifeform ( does that thing invoke rng somewhere?! )
19:43 mircea_popescu lmao. nope
19:44 * asciilifeform won't be surprised if 1 day we learn that it only happens if you click on the bottom serif of a lower case 's' or somesuch
19:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, diana_coman do you have any pressing itches re the asm vivisections , or can table it for nao ?
19:48 mircea_popescu table.
19:49 asciilifeform aite.
19:49 * asciilifeform empties head.
~ 19 minutes ~
20:08 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/wall-street-1987/ << Trilema -- Wall Street (1987)
~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~
21:45 mircea_popescu diana_coman so in the end, the conclusion of these procedings is, we're switching to sjlj and use no handlers ? did you ever manage to get it going on smg test server ?
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