#trilema | 2019-04-23

pest - 1d 2h
trilema - 1025d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2019-04-22 | 2019-04-24 → ↓

09:09	mp_en_viaje	hola!
09:11	asciilifeform	ohai mp_en_viaje !
09:11	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21 << 1337 word day!!!
09:12	mp_en_viaje	how goes alfie ?
09:12	asciilifeform	ffa text massage , mostly
09:12	asciilifeform	an' you, mp_en_viaje ?
09:13	asciilifeform	still 'buchapest' ?
09:13	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21#1909189 << naah. also left behind all sorta electronics etc. it's nonsensical to take peaches to the orchard.
09:13	a111	Logged on 2019-04-21 20:53 asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2019/the-egeszsegfejlesztesi-pont/#selection-113.185-113.231 << lol he did bring the merc ?!
09:13	mp_en_viaje	asciilifeform, prolly going to prague this weekend.
09:13	mp_en_viaje	well, either that or marakesh.
09:13	asciilifeform	nifty
09:14	mp_en_viaje	i dunno if you know the subtext there, but anyway, at some point in the 90s romanians got REALLY butthurt someone thought budapest is the capitol.
09:14	asciilifeform	lol!
09:15	mp_en_viaje	ah yes, it was michael jackson.
09:18	mp_en_viaje	oh no, wait, it wasn't michael jackson. it was that retarded fat fuck that subbed for bruce dickinson in 1995.
09:22	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21#1909192 << ongoing for a while, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817349
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09:22	a111	Logged on 2019-04-21 20:56 feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/mexican-troops-draw-weapons-make-us-soldiers-their-bitch-on-us-side-of-rio-grande/ << Qntra -- Mexican Troops Draw Weapons, Make US Soldiers Their Bitch On US Side Of Rio Grande
09:22	a111	Logged on 2018-05-23 03:37 mircea_popescu: Mocky, there's a usg-reservation in mexico. there's however also the headquarters of the only military force to humiliate the usg at home to date, they pretty much conquered the old mexican lands well into arizona.
09:26	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21#1909212 << you know ? pretty lulzy i thought.
09:26	a111	Logged on 2019-04-21 23:43 asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/egeszsegfejlesztesi-pont-46-560x840.jpg << lol!! sks! sovok!111
09:26	mp_en_viaje	clone guards in clone guns.
09:28	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909217 << notbad.
09:28	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 00:00 asciilifeform: in entirely unrelated heathen lulz : asciilifeform found an -- apparently working -- usb 'serial device' stack for ice40 . only eats 1/3 of the LUTs in the '8k', too.
09:31	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: it still gotta be eaten & characterized, if to be used.
09:31	mp_en_viaje	tru
09:32	asciilifeform	tho i do find it interesting, that it is difficult ( unlike on von neumann cpu ) to write a fpga filling that 'worx sometimes'
09:41	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909224 << sweet.
09:41	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 07:40 spyked: in spyked updates: feedbot-iii is scheduled to be published this week, followed by schedule for next work, followed by (by now late) pics from http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907055
09:41	mp_en_viaje	in other sweet : apparently hotel had fire drill while we were away.
09:41	mp_en_viaje	best way to do these, i always say : while im not there.
09:49	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909246 << holy shit what the fuck's the point of all the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897508 / http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897508 etc etc shenanigans, if they don't fit in a fucking 2147483648 byteschunk!
09:49	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 14:29 spyked: asciilifeform, unfortunately 2GB (max. supported by motherboard) might still not be enuff. ideally I would plug in ave1 gnat build and use it to build a minimal system, but will prolly have to bootstrap the whole thing on another machine.
09:49	a111	Logged on 2019-02-17 15:03 mircea_popescu: "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */"
09:52	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909249 << cuz musltronic.
09:52	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 15:03 asciilifeform: i.e. i was able to build conventional gentoo ( per my old recipe ) w/out any such thing in the mix
09:53	mp_en_viaje	o heh, i'm a day late.
09:54	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909254 << nah, not worth doing. the approach is probably to find some other way, tcc or w/e, to replace the gcc step-by-step peeling of layers of filth.
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09:54	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:03 trinque: if somebody finds a way of leaping directly from gcc6 to 4, I'll applaud him, but I'm not burning any more hours of life in there
09:57	mp_en_viaje	just because the entire "mes" thing turned out to be a single dude who further turned out to be a moron does not immediately resolve the matter of whether tcc can be bent into usable shape ; nor whether it should be confiscated wioth a view towards such bending.
09:57	a111	Logged on 2019-03-26 19:58 mircea_popescu: bvt, http://archive.is/febOU#selection-255.67-255.135 challenge specifically offers you excellent entry point : there's a bunch of contact details available, what's "me" resolve to as a provision endpoint.
09:58	mp_en_viaje	but it seems doubtless that on the long term, the eulora-style of "isolate, strangle and diminish" approach is the only way to handle c. rather than provide support for it, produce some kind of small and compact translator that permits most of the "features" it "offers" to die quietly while not getting in our way in any major sense.
09:59	mp_en_viaje	basically, c (not the code, nor the language -- the UNIVERSE, all encompassing, the mentalities of all they involved, their cultural productions over the decades, the horses they used and the women they mounted -- the whole universe) is a wart upon reason. like a hemorrhoid or something. you take your wart to the doctor, he ties a string tightly around it and well... it falls off eventually.
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10:00	mp_en_viaje	nobody does micro-surgery to re-allign the tiny rectal blood vessels and remove the hernia that caused the hemorrhoid in the first place. i don' tthink we should either, but rather, discover some working and workable string.
10:02	mp_en_viaje	i confess i had hoped this may solve itself ; but then again c evidently only attracts a certain kind of person. whatever it may be they ~say~, whenever it seems
10:02	mp_en_viaje	"not particularly c-retarded" the apparence is strictly due to ~their lieing~.
10:03	mp_en_viaje	when push comes to shove, the dude writing the page about "how to fix c" that seemed sane on superficial examination will come out as exactly the same mind as what produced the problem in the first place.
10:06	mp_en_viaje	i suppose this is not even vaguely new, at least not to people familiar with politics. http://www.ilcaragiale.eu/opere/articole/frati_radicali.html is from 1890s ; but otherwise, the "very principled and intransigent opposition politician" is... well... http://www.ilcaragiale.eu/opere/momente_si_schite/unchiul_si_nepotul.html
10:11	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909401 << whatever else can be said re bolix -- they had the Right Thing pill for this. 'yes you can build a c proggy on this iron; no it won't win you 'speed'.'
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10:11	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 13:59 mp_en_viaje: basically, c (not the code, nor the language -- the UNIVERSE, all encompassing, the mentalities of all they involved, their cultural productions over the decades, the horses they used and the women they mounted -- the whole universe) is a wart upon reason. like a hemorrhoid or something. you take your wart to the doctor, he ties a string tightly around it and well... it falls off eventually.
10:12	mp_en_viaje	myeah
10:13	asciilifeform	i've been slowly eating the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-01#1906471 + relateds, and seeing exactly how this was baked, it is quite interesting.
10:13	a111	Logged on 2019-04-01 14:08 asciilifeform: in other noose, asciilifeform nao has what appears to be full pinout, timing, bus sequence, register, init magic, interrupts, etc. spec for bolix 'ivory' (won't, presently, say from where, unless source wants to be cited, plox to write in. )
10:13	mp_en_viaje	how long you got till ffa series done ?
10:14	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: at least month -- there's a heavy piece i haven't even started yet -- keccak
10:14	asciilifeform	i dun expect to make any major changes to the numerics, however
10:14	asciilifeform	( will add 'rotate' and 'conventional exponent' , that's it for them )
10:15	mp_en_viaje	alright, well, month's not bad -- by the time you're done with ffa you can start a mega-bolix series.
10:15	mp_en_viaje	AND, with all the experience from ffa, you actually got what you need as a basis to actually make that megaspire work.
10:15	mp_en_viaje	but DO NOT run off to that before finishing this.
10:15	asciilifeform	next item on conveyor is pizarro battlefield. but prolly can run in parallel.
10:15	mp_en_viaje	possibru
10:15	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: i've deliberately not gone beyond 'read papers in hammock' stage for bolixism, on acct of this.
10:16	mp_en_viaje	cool.
10:16	asciilifeform	1st item tho will be to bake the cpu interposer i drew up the day i got the seekritdirt.
10:16	asciilifeform	little flex pcb thing, inserts under the 'ivory' and brings the signals out to analyzer.
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10:17	asciilifeform	thing moves at 8mhz and has slightly more than 100 active signal lines, not esp. tall order.
10:18	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909271 << we picked 4.something as an arbitrary cutoff at some point illo tempore, through a mostly passive schelling / ad hoc agreement procedure. whatever the merits of the actual spot picked -- picking MULTIPLE ones is bad in the sense you get the downside multipled and nothing else.
10:18	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:15 trinque: why not gcc3 or 2 then? where'd the thompson come in?
10:18	asciilifeform	( funny thing, it actually has a debug pin that pisses out microcode index of current microinstruction )
10:18	mp_en_viaje	you know what i mean ?
10:18	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: not entirely arbitrary, there was a ~massive~ increase in bulk + documented wtf's at 5.0
10:18	mp_en_viaje	asciilifeform, cuz built to be repaired huh.
10:19	mp_en_viaje	asciilifeform, "arbitrary', yes. the sorta arbitrary we do here, only called that in the sense i am not about to engage the relativistic dorkitudes of pantsuited morons.
10:19	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: was built to be debugged, it their 1st (and last) piece of in-house silicon
10:19	asciilifeform	*it was
10:20	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909277 << possibly ; though also rather large and involved. but we see.
10:20	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:18 trinque: in fact, now that caught, repair should commence. gcc is the best first thing to fix.
10:21	*	mp_en_viaje will not argue with hero who knows what he's doing.
10:21	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909282 << at the very least a well documkented failed attempt will provide plenty of most informative tidbits.
10:21	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:20 trinque: would be great to see ave1 take this on, and then perhaps get deterministic bins. could cut official ISOs from there
10:23	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: the 'snip out timestamp nonsense from gcc' thing has been itching since '15
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10:23	asciilifeform	( afaik that's the only source of nondeterminism , at least for particular frozen gcc pov )
10:24	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909295 << he's got a hydraulic rotating platform, firing gau-8 HE shells.
10:24	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:35 PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21#1909210 << are you shooting the raccoons with a SKS, or am I mistakenly mixing these log lines together?
10:24	asciilifeform	lol actually the item from concan doyle's 'the empty house'
10:25	asciilifeform	but similar effect!1
10:25	mp_en_viaje	AVENGERlifeform
10:26	asciilifeform	( iirc we had thread -- i started with a... cranequin )
10:27	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909310 << certainly worth more than that.
10:27	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:40 PeterL: I was in a gun store in 2010, they had an SKS for $120, but I didn't get it, wish I did, now they run about $450 around here
10:28	mp_en_viaje	rarely seen state of affairs at us gun shops ; generally gun worth 3-500 selling for 1-2k. sks surely worth the 300.
10:28	asciilifeform	mp_en_viaje: when sovok folded , usa market was awash in grade-a 'museum' small arms , for pennies
10:28	asciilifeform	naodays mostly gone
10:28	mp_en_viaje	myeah.
10:28	mp_en_viaje	it's really not that terrible.
10:28	asciilifeform	( e.g. mosin rifles, nagant revolvers, for <100 )
10:28	asciilifeform	in orig. factory grease
10:29	mp_en_viaje	of course, the problem with "terrible gun" is that 99.9x% of users are such fucking shit, the gun's shortcomings don't even show in the end product.
10:29	asciilifeform	nagant is a pleasure to shoot, btw ( if famously underpowered by modern standards )
10:30	mp_en_viaje	if there's one dood in a hundred in whose case the gun's the weak link in the gun-gunner dipole, it's a wonder.
10:30	asciilifeform	with hour or 2 practice, novice can hit dinner plate at 40 metres
10:30	asciilifeform	( cuz, elementarily , no kg+ of slide goin' back an' forth )
10:30	mp_en_viaje	not even limited to marksmanship. it's just a general... look, if you're gonna be the sorta guy who uses rifle, guess who you sleep with at night.
10:31	mp_en_viaje	"um... my plushies ?"
10:34	asciilifeform	lol
10:34	*	asciilifeform brb:tea
		~ 18 minutes ~
10:52	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909325 << because sane people line-dry.
10:52	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 17:02 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: here's an old asciilifeform crackpottery : why exactly can't one buy clothes dryer that runs on vacuum pump, instead of heater.
10:53	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909338 << he has a point ; you're still paying the lambda heat no matter what method you're paying it through. 15k is 15k.
10:53	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 17:06 PeterL: you don't just have to get the vacuum, you also have to vaporize the water
10:54	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909341 << amusingly, that's whereabouts here too, 80-100kgs/week or so.
10:54	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 17:09 PeterL: I run about 10 loads of wash a week, I don't want something that only handles one T-shirt at a time
10:56	mp_en_viaje	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909353 << i was gonna say, dood prolly desperate for employment.
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10:56	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 20:26 BingoBoingo: Follow up: Wants to know if anyone is hiring, informed him a couple datacenter places in Sao Paulo appear to be growing fast.
10:56	mp_en_viaje	aaand logs done. ahhh
10:56	mp_en_viaje	that's such a particularly satisfying feeling when one's travelling.
		~ 1 hours 48 minutes ~
12:44	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909375 << This was exceptional in that it involved the uniform wearing sort of troop as opposed to the known to be incredibly successful irregular forces.
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12:44	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 13:22 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-21#1909192 << ongoing for a while, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-23#1817349
12:51	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909472 << Well he had his opportunities to demonstrate helpfulness, but apparently he has issues with that. Anyways the locals obsess over the "careers" they get in school, have the very US pre-2008 expectation that they get to neatly slot into those careers (not that this worked in the US outside of that brief window in the 1950s, but the 2008 crisis is when the media narrative changed to counter the
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12:51	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 14:56 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909353 << i was gonna say, dood prolly desperate for employment.
12:51	BingoBoingo	expectation).
		~ 40 minutes ~
13:31	asciilifeform	meanwhile in heathen lulz, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-martyrdom-of-st-julian.html
		~ 34 minutes ~
14:05	trinque	dunno what the guy thought he had coming, trying to play the "freedom of the press is real!!1" line
14:06	trinque	also nordicsystem chicks can be groupies too! and other laughable moves
14:09	asciilifeform	what i dunget is whythefuq he was in londonistan to begin with
14:10	trinque	could've cut the facade and booked it to moscow like snowden
14:13	asciilifeform	tbf normally reich subject needs visa for moscow ( i dun know how, precisely, s got around this on moment's notice )
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14:14	asciilifeform	i suspect that trinque is right tho, and assange had some sorta cockroach in his head re 'honest press exists and will wake up' etc
14:14	trinque	I take it snowden wasn't the only guy popping around on internal NSA machines and they saw him coming
14:16	*	asciilifeform observes that 6y after snowdenism, ru still runs on winblowz, the mythical 'elbrus' still ~unobtainable (and likely the demo units run poettering-linux) , etc
14:18	asciilifeform	really the only reason ru has any working weapons systems at all is that they were all designed in '70s-'80s sovok and run on 4uM 'k1801'
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14:18	a111	Logged on 2019-02-14 23:52 asciilifeform: in ru there are some decent microscopists ( not the 1 phf went to, but apparently others. ) for instance, very recently found that К1801 ( sovok 'pdp-11' single-chip ) was ~not~ in fact a photoclone of dec's (only the early '80s demo ver was!) but , turns out, entirely indigenous orc design, with coupla x ~fewer~ transistors and yet faster max clock
14:20	asciilifeform	( and that none of these hang off the net, elementarily on acct of clock too slow to run even 10M/s nic.. )
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14:21	asciilifeform	errything which ~does~ hang off the net there, is same familiar shitware as in reich, i presently know of no evidence of an exception existing.
14:22	asciilifeform	tbf ~same can be said for usg, where -- similarly -- the only '100% uptime' items are pdp11/microvax/etc where likewise '70s-'80s lsi and likewise no net etc
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14:26	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> what i dunget is whythefuq he was in londonistan to begin with << Well the extradition circus should be lulzy. Appears on the surface at least to be alienating some of the Germans.
14:32	asciilifeform	re: current-day ru -- despite the 'pr' and the appearance of 'uppitiness', it is still a miamistan. the '90s did not actually end there.
14:33	asciilifeform	their last fuhrer who wasn't feathering an overseas nest was andropov.
14:33	BingoBoingo	Maybe shifting more into a Macau-istan
14:33	BingoBoingo	Or whatever the PRC flag flies that draws the vacationers
14:37	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: a 'miamistan' in the essence is where the brass occupies self primarily with padding foreign acct , buying villas in reich, setting up their spawn to same, etc
14:38	BingoBoingo	I'm just suggesting that the trending reich might be shifting to the other one.
14:38	feedbot	http://qntra.net/2019/04/us-prepares-to-tackle-illegal-immigration-with-facial-recognition-wank-for-folks-leaving-the-us/ << Qntra -- US Prepares To Tackle Illegal Immigration With Facial Recognition Wank For Folks LEAVING The US
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14:39	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i rather doubt
14:39	a111	Logged on 2019-04-18 04:25 asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: at this pt i'm not even convinced that there ~is~, or could be, a 'chinese strategy', or 'they want..' -- these folx have not developed a with-what to want , whole edifice reduces to individual party-appointed directors' desire for miami
14:40	asciilifeform	the chinese by all appearances are 'greedy algorithm', with no notion of strategy to speak of, nor any detectable ideological spine.
14:40	BingoBoingo	The lack of a strategy doesn't keep magic casino place on the coast with odd political status from happening.
14:41	asciilifeform	what's so surprising about casino ? even fucktarded marylandistan has casino.
14:41	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: s/emmigration/emigration .
14:42	BingoBoingo	The Chicoms love gambling like trailer trash loves OD'ing on whatever the drug current decade happens to be
14:42	BingoBoingo	ty, fxd
14:44	*	BingoBoingo suspects the one state different systems treatment of Chinese "special administrative regions" is an effect of the anti-strategic Chinese languages. They want resort playground with different rules to play and hedge in, when the leases expired back to them they just sorta let the places happen.
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14:46	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i suspect they are attempts to 'build own miami', in the spirit of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1903015
14:46	a111	Logged on 2019-03-17 15:42 mircea_popescu: matches well that group of "transsexuals" who evidently enough are so preoccupied with cunt, they just want one of their own. about as "transsexual" as the compulsive gambler who buys himself a slot machine for his "den" is "transeconomic",
14:47	asciilifeform	( which makes approx same amt of sense as all other attempts to create 'unwet water', but i have nfi what the psychology is )
14:48	BingoBoingo	Prolly not so different from the folks seeing US going to shit that decide to hoard decades of canned foods instead of leaving.
14:49	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: iirc these tend to be seriously-advanced cases of christianity of the central nervous system, and fixated on the bit re 'great flood' etc
14:51	BingoBoingo	Well, leverage that to the Chinense language in use not allowing for the "Todo bien" "Todo bien" exchange without situation dependent literary references to Confusious[sic].
14:52	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: in actuality it's lit. 'me happy -- you happy?'
14:53	asciilifeform	the 'no paragraph w/out confucius' is moar in re written lit.
14:54	BingoBoingo	I lack direct experience in this, though I recall reading a few reports that the Confusious cancer was endemic in conversation among the washed.
		~ 24 minutes ~
15:19	lobbes	just to give an update: I've been taking the last few weeks to tend to the manor side of things (however, I'm current on logz)
15:19	a111	Logged on 2019-03-14 15:43 mircea_popescu: anyway, kinda why the insistence on "republic is political -- you can't just do tech thing" etc. and why dual court-and-manor function of lord. and so on.
15:19	lobbes	next up on my conveyor is to publish a vpatch for the auctionbot proper, as right now I've only provided the 'command router' it sits on. I aim to have that out by Sunday the latest
15:19	lobbes	After that, I'm going to start working on re-implementing the auto-bidding functionality (which will also be a vpatch)
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15:20	lobbes	btw phf, I'm loving this log link markup. very cool
15:22	*	lobbes bbl
		~ 21 minutes ~
15:44	bvt	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909396 << do you mean going [preinstalled gcc6] -> tcc -> gcc2.95 -> gcc4.7 -> gcc4.9 for cuntoo? or drop gcc entirely, try to get as much as possible running on tcc?
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15:44	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 13:54 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909254 << nah, not worth doing. the approach is probably to find some other way, tcc or w/e, to replace the gcc step-by-step peeling of layers of filth.
15:44	bvt	the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
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15:44	bvt	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909254 << i suspect that fixing direct gcc6->gcc4 step involves something like http://archive.is/cBg9N#selection-9.1340-9.1425
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15:44	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:03 trinque: if somebody finds a way of leaping directly from gcc6 to 4, I'll applaud him, but I'm not burning any more hours of life in there
15:51	bvt	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909279 << you can't use adacore's gnat to bootstrap ave1gnat on musltronic systems, but http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813753 works for that purpose;
15:51	a111	Logged on 2019-04-22 16:19 trinque: his gcc does not build upon musl, so I have not. prodded him a few times about getting his to run on a musl box.
15:51	a111	Logged on 2018-05-15 21:38 asciilifeform: ok, apol. for log clutter :
15:53	PeterL	would it be hard to distribute gcc4 instead of gcc6 so that you would not have to build it? why do we have to start with gcc6?
15:54	bvt	also, you can't build ave1gnat from scratch on fresh adaless system because of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 - so initial gnat binary will be required (ebuilds just download binary gnat for that).
15:54	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)
15:54	PeterL	could one host a bin of the ave1 gnat?
15:55	bvt	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909440 << this would involve getting binutils under our control - bigger part of these timestamps are added by ar/ld; tbh i even dunno if gcc is responsible for this at all.
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15:55	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 14:23 asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: the 'snip out timestamp nonsense from gcc' thing has been itching since '15
15:57	bvt	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909490 << speaking of which, http://archive.is/pEMWM ; also, i guess elbrus-2 (~1985) and besm-6 are still running
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15:57	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 18:18 asciilifeform: really the only reason ru has any working weapons systems at all is that they were all designed in '70s-'80s sovok and run on 4uM 'k1801'
16:01	bvt	PeterL: binary ave1gnat is already hosted by asciilifeform; but it's integration into cuntoo is an open problem that ave1 should be best equipped to handle
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16:01	a111	Logged on 2018-05-15 21:38 asciilifeform: ok, apol. for log clutter :
		~ 42 minutes ~
16:44	feedbot	http://qntra.net/2019/04/californication-home-depot-looks-to-withdraw-from-indefensible-oakland-location/ << Qntra -- Cali...ion: Home Depot Looks To Withdraw From Indefensible Oakland Location
		~ 1 hours 36 minutes ~
18:21	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909530 << iirc the orig problem was that the published musl gentoo starter culture trinque began working from, was built on gcc6 , which won't build 4.x (and therefore full replication involves stepping 6 -> 5 -> 4.9 )
18:21	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-22#1909254 << i suspect that fixing direct gcc6->gcc4 step involves something like http://archive.is/cBg9N#selection-9.1340-9.1425
18:22	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909541 << the published sores aint especially interesting, aside from archaeological pov ( if you have fpga -- yer product is only as clean as that fpga, and there aint any clean ones gettable ; and if there were, why wouldja want to simulate a pdp11 in it ?? )
18:22	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 19:57 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909490 << speaking of which, http://archive.is/pEMWM ; also, i guess elbrus-2 (~1985) and besm-6 are still running
18:23	asciilifeform	it is only interesting from the pov where e.g. asciilifeform bought small crate of k1801bm2 , and reasonably certain they aint modern fakes ( if i ever end up using'em, i'ma decap 1 at random & see.. )
18:24	asciilifeform	i dun expect to ever get hands on a complete elbrus-2 or etc.
18:28	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909527 << currently i suspect that tcc & similar is a mirage; and that an actual serious solution would moar resemble the bolix approach, where you have a proper lisp and a ~compact~ + readable c-to-lisp ~in~ it for use with legacy crapola while-needed
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18:28	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909396 << do you mean going [preinstalled gcc6] -> tcc -> gcc2.95 -> gcc4.7 -> gcc4.9 for cuntoo? or drop gcc entirely, try to get as much as possible running on tcc?
18:28	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 14:11 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909401 << whatever else can be said re bolix -- they had the Right Thing pill for this. 'yes you can build a c proggy on this iron; no it won't win you 'speed'.'
18:28	asciilifeform	c is a pretty sad lang to write anyffin complicated in, ~especially~ a compiler (and c compiler is no exception)
18:29	asciilifeform	to properly shoot the 'primacy of c' in the head, gotta remove the 'it is where the self-hosting happens' 1st and foremost.
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18:29	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 13:59 mp_en_viaje: basically, c (not the code, nor the language -- the UNIVERSE, all encompassing, the mentalities of all they involved, their cultural productions over the decades, the horses they used and the women they mounted -- the whole universe) is a wart upon reason. like a hemorrhoid or something. you take your wart to the doctor, he ties a string tightly around it and well... it falls off eventually.
18:29	asciilifeform	i.e. what you'd want is to 'self-host' (on iron built for the purpose) a lang where a c, ada, etc. compiler is 3000 ln.
18:30	asciilifeform	rather than 300,000.
		~ 25 minutes ~
18:55	asciilifeform	revisiting upstack , the 1801 docs, pretty interesting document from 'techno-political' pov actually -- there does not exist a description like this (operation AND internals) for any reich cpu ever sold. certainly not as a vendor document under 1 cover (not speaking here of ad-hoc reversed tidbits)
18:55	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 19:57 bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909490 << speaking of which, http://archive.is/pEMWM ; also, i guess elbrus-2 (~1985) and besm-6 are still running
18:56	asciilifeform	i'ma mirror those scans, they dun deserve to live in a shithub
18:59	asciilifeform	here we go : 1801 schematics ; 1801 manual vol.1 1801 manual vol.2 .
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19:03	asciilifeform	^ and before mp asks, yes it's combo of manual typewriter and ink pen, and no it won't in a million years ocr, other than by meat ( and is largely schematics / waveforms anyway )
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19:04	asciilifeform	and yes it in fact describes operation (incl. physical params) of the ~internal~ blocks , not only the 'user-facing' pins.
19:06	*	asciilifeform would luvvv to read 'ffa-style' incarnation of such a work, where the chip is 'built up' from empty space in ~hour-long chunks. but prolly this won't exist until asciilifeform writes 1..
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19:09	asciilifeform	incidentally, even a very brief look at the 1801 item confirms the troof of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896836 -- thing defo aint a 'and here is where the ameri-crystal does x' , it's a quite 'fits-in-head' object , very evidently produced from page-long spec of the orig instruction set
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19:09	a111	Logged on 2019-02-14 23:52 asciilifeform: in ru there are some decent microscopists ( not the 1 phf went to, but apparently others. ) for instance, very recently found that К1801 ( sovok 'pdp-11' single-chip ) was ~not~ in fact a photoclone of dec's (only the early '80s demo ver was!) but , turns out, entirely indigenous orc design, with coupla x ~fewer~ transistors and yet faster max clock
19:12	asciilifeform	imho the so-called 'civilized' world ought to have to answer re why it failed to produce a product like this.
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19:13	asciilifeform	vol.2 p.133-151 pretty interesting, describes how the circuit was mapped out (spoiler: by hand) to the actual cmos.
19:14	asciilifeform	( 1 'downer' -- apparently 'cells' drawn by hand, and then arranged by simple proggy , 'gred' -- but its sores not given in the doc )
19:15	asciilifeform	concludes by summarizing (with illustration) the actual chem of the fab process.
		~ 3 hours 4 minutes ~
22:19	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909543 << sadly fella seems to be mia :
22:19	a111	Logged on 2019-04-23 20:01 bvt: PeterL: binary ave1gnat is already hosted by asciilifeform; but it's integration into cuntoo is an open problem that ave1 should be best equipped to handle
22:19	asciilifeform	!#seen ave1
22:19	a111	2019-02-19 <ave1> Btw asciilifeform, I had to switch my cheap NFS account to a more expensive one as php 5.6 is no longer supported in their new setup. I expect that sometime, at the end of this year, 5.6 will also disappear from "production" sites.
22:24	*	asciilifeform bbl:meat

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