Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-06-25 | 2018-06-27 → ↓
01:51 ben_vulpes mod6: can i get a hand with some c++? i can't figure out how to iterate over the params array in sendtoaddresswithchange with boost or more naive iterators http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7TlSw/?raw=true
~ 8 hours 20 minutes ~
10:12 mod6 oh, ok.
10:12 mod6 i'll take a look here in a sec.
~ 31 minutes ~
10:43 mod6 prolly simplest way is like: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/i68ww/?raw=true
10:43 mod6 you could do it with an iterator too, but that's not quite as clean.
10:44 mod6 for example: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/mFY19/?raw=true
10:45 mod6 which also leads me to see that in your code, you're attempting to use an iterator to loop over a map<string, string> , and add the keys to argKeys. but you never did set the iterator to mapArgs.begin()
10:45 mod6 so that might need to be fixed.
10:51 mod6 well, there's also some syntactical problems, here's the fixes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/TI85U/?raw=true
~ 1 hours 33 minutes ~
12:25 asciilifeform meanwhile, in entomology dept, https://archive.li/IAUet >> orlol,'Barbarians Rampage through Europe's Cemetery'
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12:28 asciilifeform and meanwhile , ftr, all three cr50 pubkeyz withstood phuctoring
~ 26 minutes ~
12:54 asciilifeform !!up tim17
12:54 deedbot tim17 voiced for 30 minutes.
12:54 asciilifeform tim17: hello ?
12:55 asciilifeform tim17: speak your words, stranger !
12:55 tim17 asciilifeform: stfu bitch
12:56 ben_vulpes .size() fuckin hue
12:56 asciilifeform lol nuffin else ?
12:56 ben_vulpes and to think i spent all that time poring over the boost docs
12:56 asciilifeform aite
12:56 asciilifeform !!down tim17
12:56 asciilifeform some cheek.
12:57 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: classic intro!
12:57 ben_vulpes mod6: thanks
12:57 mod6 np, Sir!
12:57 mod6 good q's.
12:58 ben_vulpes lol that's kind of you
13:00 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: at one time i tried to implement more or less same item you're making, and did the shiva thing, and in the end thought that whoever it was ( mircea_popescu ? ) who suggested that trb should simply eat ( and prompt to sign ) raw tx, generated externally via scripts, was right
13:00 asciilifeform parsing in boostolade is ugly
13:01 asciilifeform and tx input coad is safety-critical, sapper errs once.
13:02 ben_vulpes heh, last time i took a crack at *that* i got mired in finding unspent outputs with trb
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13:03 asciilifeform really calls for that wallet split.
13:05 asciilifeform btw manual curation of unspent coinz will be much moar practical once the thing stops nonsensically crapping out random addrs to 'change' to
13:07 ben_vulpes do you have any output selection scripts you keep around?
13:07 asciilifeform nope
13:07 asciilifeform prolly i'm the worst to ask, i hardly ever move coin
13:07 ben_vulpes and yeah, i could possibly put this time into humping trinque's wallet patches down the field
13:08 mod6 unf unf
13:08 mod6 he's probably got some worthwhile changes
13:12 trinque they're ready, being held because I haven't reground the entire tree around a manifest.
13:13 trinque so if there's a hero around that wants to take that on, we can start getting trb patches out the door again.
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13:14 ben_vulpes for the sake of exploring the state space; it is more desirable to regrind the whole tree rather than to introduce the manifest at this point and use it going forward?
13:16 mod6 i'll regrind the whole trb tree. however, I think if we -must- do this, we should only do it one time. and i really don't even want to do it at all.
13:17 mod6 that said, everything must be pretty much "firmly" in place with V rules, manifest, naming conventions, what have you, before I wanna move on that.
13:18 mod6 everything documented and blessed.
13:18 trinque mod6: http://trinque.org/2018/06/02/v-manifest-specification/ << can have the thread here if you like
13:20 mod6 so this is all in lisp. is it going to be simple for n00bs to get lisp installed and to run V?
13:21 trinque eh? what's in lisp
13:21 trinque the blog post there is talking about the manifest file format.
13:21 mod6 the "latest client" linked in the article: http://blog.esthlos.com/esthlos-v-genesis-or-who-presses-the-pressor/
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13:22 mod6 Step two of the guide says "Ensure at least one of the following is installed:" "sbcl" or "ccl"
13:22 mod6 anyway, I guess I'll have to put this on the conveyor and work through all of this.
13:23 ben_vulpes mod6: focus on the manifest design, not the v implementation linked in trinque 's post
13:23 ben_vulpes shouldn't matter in the slightest which v impl is used
13:23 mod6 is his lisp version of V to become the new defacto thing that has manifest capabilities?
13:23 ben_vulpes "manifest capabilities" are baked into all V implementations
13:23 trinque there ~are no~ manifest capabilities to be had
13:23 ben_vulpes it's a single file that collapses the tree into a pillar
13:23 trinque the words I wrote right there gave it as an example of "this needs a manifest"
13:24 mod6 ben_vulpes: im trying to look at the big picture. the manifest spec is a part of that, ya.
13:24 mod6 alright, gents, I'll have to dig into all of this sometime.
13:25 ben_vulpes mod6: my original q was in re why regrinding the whole tree is necessary instead of introducing the manifest now and using it going forward
13:26 trinque ben_vulpes: because the manifest has no antecedent, and you're gonna have to go graffiti other files like an idiot
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13:27 trinque as the tree stands now, one in makefiles.vpatch, iirc
13:28 * trinque imagines a house which required a tattoo on your neighbor's wife to keep standing
13:29 trinque probably not bad metaphor for how life does it.
13:31 ben_vulpes well in theory, but in practice everything below makefiles already needs a regrind; aggression to request newblocks if none have been advertised recently; hash truncation atop that. so there's an opportunity to significantly reduce the amount of regrinding by introducing the manifest after the makefiles release and just regrinding 2 patches instead of the whole tree. unless i misread the situation.
13:33 trinque this must be that orthogonal language I've heard about.
13:34 mod6 i see ben's point, but i'd rather trb one whole thing, instead of a 'before manifest' and 'after manifest'.
13:34 trinque wherever you introduce the manifest, if it is not the root, in order to involve it in the flow of the tree, that patch must also edit some other file.
13:34 mod6 opting to regrind the entire tree, and whatever other vpatches that need to be folded in that currently are not.
13:35 mod6 I can delcare the v054 release with a manifest of my own ala: To declare a "release", an author's GNS pointer for a project would point to his selected manifest.
13:35 mod6 then perhaps all the things that are still not folded in can be in a second release, or just folded in without release.
13:36 mod6 we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. but first and foremost, the manifest items seems alright to me; "$blockCount $patchTitle $patchAuthor $comment".
13:37 mod6 I read this all a while back when posted, liked it, will think on it some more -- but off hand, can't think of anything we might be missing.
13:38 ben_vulpes s/after makefiles/in the makefiles patch/
13:38 mod6 Perhaps we need to 1: Formally adopt the manifest spec proposed by trinque, 2: build a V that supports it.
13:38 phf trinque: ftr we have the "introduce manifest now without regrind, use it moving forward" pattern already implemented once
13:40 phf not sure if you saw the thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-15#1825784
13:40 a111 Logged on 2018-06-15 17:26 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-15#1825631 << updated, but it's a novel way of using manifest though: normally it requires a regrind where manifest is built up as you go, so the press order is enforced through graph. right now your manifest gives a press order, that's not enforced by anything
13:41 trinque phf: harping on it because I don't see evidence that reason for the manifest has been internalized
13:41 trinque but yes totally possible
13:41 trinque mod6: what do you imagine needs to change in a vtron to support the manifest?
13:42 * mod6 thinks
13:42 mod6 it's just a flat file that resides in the project, ya?
13:43 trinque yep
13:43 phf trinque: yeah
13:43 mod6 ah, then nothing i can think of. don't know what i was on about there.
13:43 mod6 should it be a part of a proper genesis?
13:44 mod6 because if so, then we need a new trb genesis. which doesn't effect v in anyway, just another pita for trb.
13:44 mod6 maybe a necessary one, however.
13:44 trinque see phf's linked line above. not strictly necessary
13:45 trinque what it means is that before that point, there isn't a manifest-enforced press order
13:45 trinque could decide that we're fine with that historical fact. world won't implode
13:45 phf trinque: one reason i didn't include patch name in the manifest is because patch name becomes a promise, unless you enforce it by tooling. i didn't want to go that way, but since current standard manifest does include patch name, than perhaps V ought to check the manifest against the patchset. relatedly fully manifest-based v doesn't even need graph tooling, can presumably press according to manifest's chain.
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13:45 trinque could say we want trb to be exemplar of "how to V", in which case yeah, regrind it all
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13:46 mod6 hmm. maybe not required in a technical sense. but i'd like it all to hang together, and be proper. for posterity.
13:46 trinque phf: thought I had there was that if you have only a manifest in hand, perhaps the name is useful in some dht lookup for the patches later
13:47 trinque I agree, promisetronic without the vtron getting angry at you over mismatched name
13:47 mod6 ah, interesting point re patch name
13:50 trinque ben_vulpes: got it; yeah, I'd say if it gets bolted on, inside the makefiles patch is a sensible place
13:51 ben_vulpes it's either there or regrind back to the genesis
14:02 ben_vulpes in other reports, btcfor.gifts does indeed work for small amounts
~ 37 minutes ~
14:39 mircea_popescu that's quite like saying "this pile of javascript does indeed work". sure, it does, just like the item that produced http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-06-25.log.html#t17:56:50 worked.
14:39 lobbesbot Logged on 2018-06-25 17:56:50: <lobbesbot> Logged on 2018-06-25 17:23:00: <mircea_popescu> in other lulz : http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-06-18.log.html#t21:39:48 ie 16.4mn is not http://lobbesblog.com/queryauctions/pricehistory/auction.php?AuctionId=221 ie 16.39999mn lobbes !!!1
14:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829629 << this constant worry at the margins and in the colonies as to "europe suicide". yes, obviously, if ~russia~ let a bunch of rando foreigners in, ~russia~ would disappear. but this is because russia isn't anything, let alone very much. europe is old, and throughout this oldness it "suicided" exactly in the manner described.
14:42 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 16:25 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in entomology dept, https://archive.li/IAUet >> orlol,'Barbarians Rampage through Europe's Cemetery'
14:43 mircea_popescu the result of that "suicide" was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826732 ; realise it or not, the difference between sicily and italy is described in true romance : "sicilians have nigger blood, because the moors were niggers".
14:43 a111 Logged on 2018-06-19 15:53 mircea_popescu: romania had no kingdom of sicily.
14:44 mircea_popescu experimentally, barbarian invasion does not kill europe. not when the barbaric romans ruined the etruscan and greek vases, not when barbaric germans ruined the roman vases (you know iberia is originally a place in fucking azerbaijan, yes ?) not when etcetera.
14:44 mircea_popescu you can't ruin cunt by fucking, it's not made of soap ; and that's what europe is, the globe's cunt.
14:45 mircea_popescu moreover, the only practical alternative to this "being the place everyone goes" is... "being the place everyone leaves", ie africa, russia, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-24#1829335 etcetera.
14:45 a111 Logged on 2018-06-24 19:33 PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-24#1818207 << sounds like where I live (Midland,MI: 50k people, you can go a mile out of town and have multiple acre lots)
14:46 mircea_popescu it doesn't seem to work out to a better alternative ; a happenstance this current know-nothing party seems to be as blisfully unaware as the previous.
14:48 asciilifeform civilizations live, die, i suppose to immortal olympians it isn't even particularly interesting process
14:48 asciilifeform to the inhabitants, however -- interesting.
14:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the inhabitants have 0 say in the process.
14:49 asciilifeform noshit.jpg
14:49 asciilifeform no moar than aids patient has a say
14:49 mircea_popescu yes, the women are getting raped. that's what they're for. their "ideals" don't enter into this, thyey wanted ideals they shoulda been born with an ideals between the legs.
14:49 mircea_popescu while born with cunt, they get what cunts beget.
14:50 asciilifeform at one time asciilifeform had a poster of hiv virus electromicrogram. it is very interesting-looking item. but i imagine to the folx playing host, it is interesting in very diff way..
14:50 mircea_popescu !Qddg poz my neg hole
14:50 mircea_popescu anyway -- to the folks playing host, it is interesting like a soviet food ratios stamp.
14:50 asciilifeform ... said the boronated silicon !
14:52 asciilifeform 'death by tolerasty' aint even new, iirc we had a thread re the persion variant
14:53 mircea_popescu there's really no point of the curent bs continuing. it's lived out its last, time to re-cluny the continent.
14:53 mircea_popescu and they're doing exactly that, and it's reasonable as it ever was, and i really dun see wtf the orlov's all about. "here's what i don't understand about astronomy" "ook ?"
14:53 asciilifeform imho the interesting bit is not that the tower of chair falls, but how it stayed up as long as it did
14:54 mircea_popescu exactly as described in 1984 : convincing pretense to conflict.
14:54 asciilifeform e.g. why not orc horde in 1949, say
14:54 mircea_popescu because people were pretending to be angry with each other back then
14:54 mircea_popescu anger will keep a dead marriage going a few years, you noticed ?
14:57 asciilifeform or for that matter, euro-tolerast welfare pie was as sweet in 1990s as today. why no boats of eager eaters in '90s ?
14:57 BingoBoingo Similarly "re-newing" vows tends to kill the marriage
14:57 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> or for that matter, euro-tolerast welfare pie was as sweet in 1990s as today. why no boats of eager eaters in '90s ? << Khaddafi
14:57 mircea_popescu tell me truly : do you perceive any cultural damage in islamist "colonists" in their own mind blowing up the brutalist "buildings" erected by the last gasps of the european socialist governments ?
14:57 asciilifeform nope
14:58 asciilifeform q is why odin did not send'em 20yrs ago
14:58 mircea_popescu maybe half of what the nazi built has some inkling of merit. but the rest, every public building built in eurpe the past century, belongs torn down.
14:58 mircea_popescu at some point the people LIVING THERE notice this, you know ? even if dung-in-toes sheepboy orlov (laughing at the moreso-dung-in-toes other sheeboys, ha-ha!) doesn't notice this.
14:59 mircea_popescu if he lived in the city rather than in the barn he maybe would. or maybe wouldn't, which is why he doesn't get to live in the city.
14:59 asciilifeform btw recall how der fuhrer himself promised to tear down berlin and reformat
14:59 mircea_popescu so there you go, everyone ends up sucking up to hitler, the intellectual giant of the 20th century.
15:00 mircea_popescu talk about bringing salt to the snail pit.
15:01 asciilifeform i dunno who, tho, other than the socialist lolcows, will lament the demolition of the brutalist crapola. but there is no fly/cutlet separation, louvre etc will go down with the rest
15:02 asciilifeform ( granted, mircea_popescu is a very http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630779 sort of fella, prolly gives somewhere below a nanoshit )
15:02 a111 Logged on 2017-03-22 04:08 asciilifeform: in other veryolds, 'you'll feel no dismay, watching your house burn, after you get to see how the bedbug dies!' (korean proverb)
15:04 BingoBoingo Eh, don't worry for the museum. Let it get some history of its own.
15:08 asciilifeform sorta late to 'worry', current v of euro civ was spiffy and chromed, then wrapped around a telephone pole and repaired with junkyard parts no less than twice, stayed on the road for astonishingly long time, before bumpers , floor, coming off
15:08 mircea_popescu turns out that http://trilema.com/2016/consumerism-is-not-the-answer-though-it-will-put-you-to-sleep-or-american-history-x/#footnote_4_65947 was pretty fucking prophetic
15:08 mircea_popescu the german democratic republic is getting itself a new people, the old one disappointed.
15:11 mircea_popescu aaand brecht can go hang out with the tulpas and just want to there in peace. win-win.
15:15 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/06/australia-ramps-up-flight-security-theater-with-powder-restrictions/ << Qntra - Australia Ramps Up Flight Security Theater With Powder Restrictions
15:15 asciilifeform the picture, at least from my perch, doesn't match 'mongols come and the folx on the ramparts pretend not to notice and play cards' model; eurorasts organized, deliberately bring in the boats. what's the logic there ?
15:16 mircea_popescu hey, chicks been slipping themselves mickeys in bars for decades. if it dun get up you get on your knees and suck on it, what can you do ?
15:16 mircea_popescu what's needed's what's needed and what's done'd better fucking match up!
15:17 mircea_popescu but yes, this objection is quite as strong as the "why trhe fuck did they need 60+ eyars to do it". i fully expect the "rape and slaughter of europe" to disappoint the eager victims. more of a fart than a raging hard-on, in any sense.
15:18 mircea_popescu just think, there's in excess of 200mn cunts that desperately want and utterly need http://trilema.com/2017/mom/ ; who's gonna do it to them, the fiddy arab youths a day ? have you seen any of these malnourished shitheads in your life ? a hearthy sneeze might blow 'em down.
15:18 asciilifeform the 'mongols' also 'aint waht they used to be', can you picture tamerlane sitting in 'refugee camp' and filing lawsuits re the welfarola cheques bouncing ?
15:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829650 << i don't recall where this was discussed. was it ?
15:19 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:02 ben_vulpes: heh, last time i took a crack at *that* i got mired in finding unspent outputs with trb
15:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in so many words, nope.
15:19 mircea_popescu though, amusingly, tamerlane did tax ~the same amt as these guys do.
15:19 asciilifeform seems like what they need is a martian invasion, or sumthing.
15:20 mircea_popescu i don't recall exactly figures etc, but the 0.1% republican tax is rather inspired by the mongol approach to government
15:21 asciilifeform this was variously reviewed in mircea_popescu's essays, summing up to 'modern folx can barely be arsed to do anyffing at all, not even rape & pillage, it aint easy to make'em get out of bed'
15:21 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-14#1655547
15:21 a111 Logged on 2017-05-14 05:03 ben_vulpes: on an eeeentiiiiirely different topic, it took months but i recently got the part of my output indexer that excises spent outputs from the index map to compile, which i believe brings the indexer part of this foray to completion. i invite any who'd like to read and comment to download the (unsigned!) vpatch from here cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/export_outputs.vpatch
15:22 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes this is different from "i got mired in finding unspent outputs" ?
15:22 mircea_popescu sounds more like "i conquered finding unspent outputs" ?
15:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829660 << you could just add the manifest in a patch, like diana_coman did for eucrypt.
15:23 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:13 trinque: so if there's a hero around that wants to take that on, we can start getting trb patches out the door again.
15:23 mircea_popescu much better than having to resolve the "is it same trb" problem. what's the drawback ?
15:25 asciilifeform the 'is it same trb' is much smaller problem than it seems, is quite resolvable mechanically ( as demonstrated in my http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000296.html experiment , for instance )
15:25 ben_vulpes well now i have to look into this and figure out what drives the memory of getting stuck. very foggy memories suggest it was the pruning of spent outputs i was unsure of.
15:25 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829669 << if they don't like it, they can make own / maintain yours / etcetera. there's no requirement they use that one.
15:25 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:21 mod6: the "latest client" linked in the article: http://blog.esthlos.com/esthlos-v-genesis-or-who-presses-the-pressor/
15:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'd still do the "ablation of 2011-2017" later tbh.
15:26 trinque if the question was why I linked that one, aside personal preferences, I recall there being some bug in the perl one, which wasn't in the lisp one.
15:27 mircea_popescu the "multiple implementation" thing hasn't changed, just because there's a candidate reference one tbh.
15:27 trinque the luxury of specified items, that there can be several
15:27 asciilifeform ^
15:27 mircea_popescu trinque as i recall mod6 had had enough of maintaining his ; but this doesn't mean his work to date vanished, any noob/other person at any point hindered by the lisp v can pick up mod6's and maintain it
15:27 mircea_popescu or write a new one. or anything.
15:29 mircea_popescu iirc the big item was a reimplemented toposort.
15:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho 'ablations' where you can pin down the continuity with e.g. 5line of perlade , aren't much of a problem
15:30 asciilifeform ( granted , still not a thing that ought to be done 'every morning before breakfast' but not apocalyptic headache , is the idea )
15:30 mircea_popescu not much of a technical problem, perhaps, but there really is no rush with that particular thing.
15:30 * mircea_popescu is not proposing apocalyptic by any means, not at all.
15:31 * asciilifeform at one time was quite invested in the notion of 'v format static 4evah' but mircea_popescu convincingly demonstrated that this is dumb
15:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829682 << i don't get it, you can't add new files for some reason ? this wasn't my impression ?
15:31 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:26 trinque: ben_vulpes: because the manifest has no antecedent, and you're gonna have to go graffiti other files like an idiot
15:33 trinque no, because the dependency graph is denoted through files, and not concepts
15:34 asciilifeform relatedly , some post-sov orcistans ( e.g. kazakh ) are toying with switching alphabets, will be interesting to see how that goes
15:34 mircea_popescu it's not being proposed as a retoactive fix. the idea is, ~after~ the patch that puts in a manifest, ~subsequent~ patches will be well ordered. and the fact that the earlier ones aren't exactly well ordered is a) resolved in any practical sense by the fact that you won't have patch imports across the barrier more than 1 deep (ie, once a patch after the manifest patch references a patch before the manifest patch, THAT refernec
15:34 mircea_popescu ed patch is now also well ordered, "caught in the patchchain" as it were) and b) we can and very likely will re-organize the portion between genesis and the manifest patch later anyway.
15:34 trinque cannot add a new, standalone file, without editing something that existed previously
15:34 mircea_popescu trinque i can't imagine why not ?! what am i missing here ?
15:35 trinque how's the patch look, that adds the new file?
15:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in the classical v, you gotta touch the old filez to weld your new patch onto the ancestor-tree that you want
15:35 mircea_popescu like a genesis, basically.
15:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but you don't care.
15:35 mircea_popescu let people ~adding later patches~ reference it as such.
15:35 trinque yes, they have to reference it to bring it into the flow
15:35 trinque with the graffiti
15:36 mircea_popescu let me model this explicitly, see what's going on.
15:36 asciilifeform i think trinque's observation is re how to glue the ~old~ tree on, in the first manifest-bearing patch
15:36 trinque aha, once there's a manifest, all's fine.
15:36 mircea_popescu let's take http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot&search= as an example tree.
15:37 mircea_popescu 1. you sign a new patch, manifest.patch. at this juncture, phf's viewer will show it to the side, unconnected to the tree.
15:37 mircea_popescu 2. you sign another new patch, later on, "fixing-bugzappers.patch". this patch references manifest patch and ircbot-multichan-etc.
15:38 asciilifeform aa , clever, no glue
15:38 mircea_popescu 3. you sign yet another new patch, hurr-biff.patch, referencing fixing-bugzappers.
15:38 mircea_popescu yes ?
15:38 mircea_popescu if you find the manifest patrch is useful (as you do), YOU INCLUDE IT.
15:38 mircea_popescu but if you do not include it, it's not there.
15:38 mircea_popescu this is the core of V, yes ?
15:39 trinque eh that accretion of patch material means patch size/readability is inversely proportional to modularity of the code
15:39 asciilifeform this worx; and when in 500yrs the republic schisms into west rome and east derpinople , they can have parallel manifests, etc, lol
15:40 mircea_popescu trinque which is why the regrind mechanism even exists
15:40 mircea_popescu once it becomes a pita regrind.
15:40 mircea_popescu but ~once~, not for lack of activity.
15:40 asciilifeform aha, recall the 'omfg flow graph is O(N^2)' thread
15:40 mircea_popescu oh, i do.
15:41 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform's answer , was , 'if the N is big enuff to be problem, yer civilization is due for a reformat' )
15:42 trinque what's meant by "include it" here
15:42 ben_vulpes reference the manifest file in a later patch.
15:42 mircea_popescu ^
15:42 trinque yes, show me
15:42 trinque what's it look like in the patch file
15:43 ben_vulpes manifest.txt $hash_prev $hash_curr ?
15:43 mircea_popescu - A591AF341FF436F6A3391AA5163F6BC366358B719427154F88815D87213798C92EAE4923E6BE147B92C04562619564D7A64AD9AC51CA08E5165B0B4B3DA9813A
15:43 mircea_popescu + 6ED286AA5D94E22E9087ABB55E14F7BB7EB0B098E490B0D4D6B6118BB72665C220910D24F957AC0E096A035E59A5BA3BB81AB63552010727D40AC7B8B4A2D8BB
15:43 mircea_popescu ircbot/manifest.txt
15:43 ben_vulpes right that
15:43 ben_vulpes and not "reference" but "edit"
15:43 mircea_popescu true.
15:44 trinque mk. I said "edit" above
15:44 trinque anyhow, if we're talking about how to use the manifest, got it.
15:45 trinque I was discussing how the manifest gets welded on, if welding on
15:45 mircea_popescu through usage, basically. you see a problem with that ?
15:45 ben_vulpes add a new file for the manifest, create a vpatch, any subsequent vpatches that don't also edit manifest must be reground into mainline.
15:46 ben_vulpes no graffiti even necessary.
15:46 mircea_popescu and gives a cheap "experimental tree" device.
15:46 mircea_popescu supplanting ye olde "use special signatures", which i gather was bulky
15:50 trinque right, subsequent usage pulls it in.
15:51 trinque wont be able to press a "makefiles" + manifest until that subsequent patch, but I don't really see a problem with that
15:52 trinque I brought up the graffiti because that'd be (and has historically been, before manifest) the way to attach the graph
15:52 mircea_popescu yeah.
15:53 mircea_popescu in other events : a new resource type just got discovered in eulora
15:53 mircea_popescu it's a cr50!
15:53 asciilifeform lol!
15:53 asciilifeform what's it do ?
15:53 mircea_popescu not even kidding (and only took like 3+years to find)
15:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so far, nobody knows.
15:53 diana_coman aha, I guess now I have to post a screenshot with alf-dedication :P
15:53 asciilifeform it oughta ask player for a magic # , and detonate after 5 unsuccessful tries
15:53 mircea_popescu lol word.
15:54 mircea_popescu ON BOTH SCORES
15:54 diana_coman ahaha, that doesn't even sound *that* bad
15:54 asciilifeform character should also age by 3 weeks on each shot.
15:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in further lulz : it's classified under... LUMBER
↖
16:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829714 << this is a significant gain, in that it reduces the need for elaborate toposorting. first, check the manifest chain.
16:03 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:45 phf: trinque: one reason i didn't include patch name in the manifest is because patch name becomes a promise, unless you enforce it by tooling. i didn't want to go that way, but since current standard manifest does include patch name, than perhaps V ought to check the manifest against the patchset. relatedly fully manifest-based v doesn't even need graph tooling, can presumably press according to manifest's chain.
16:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829715 << nah, trb is the bulkiest and most dangerous item on the table, it utterly can't be the exemplar at this early stage.
16:04 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 17:45 trinque: could say we want trb to be exemplar of "how to V", in which case yeah, regrind it all
16:05 mircea_popescu basically, we just introduced the possibility of "light nodes" :D
16:06 mircea_popescu or w/e they called the pseudonodes, i forget.
16:07 asciilifeform not really analogues, afaik in the contemplated new v you still need the history, to press
16:07 asciilifeform 'light node' would be if patches were somehow self-contained with whole hog
16:07 asciilifeform *analogous
16:08 mircea_popescu point being, "blind" v could exist that just puts in the patches as seen in manifest, checks no sigs.
16:09 asciilifeform it was possible even in orig v, asciilifeform's orig v99 even had a sadmode flag to trigger it
16:10 mircea_popescu fine!!!1
16:10 asciilifeform ( why? because asciilifeform doesn't like to crypto in any form, even as toy, on boxes without rng, and some of his trb dev machines at the time had none )
16:12 asciilifeform arguably this kind of thing doesn't belong at all in a production vtron, it is uncomfortably close to the proverbial 'null cipher flag'(tm)(r)
16:12 asciilifeform fwiw i had it mark all patches with 'WILD' alarm string when operating gpgless
16:13 asciilifeform ( iirc! asciilifeform prolly oughta reread his orig coad, actually been wrong before re the mechanisms ! )
16:13 asciilifeform 'note: this pistol is in firing-backwards mode'
16:14 mircea_popescu lol
16:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: almost entirely unrelatedly, didja ever have a 'iron wallets spec' article ? asciilifeform had a notion that there was one, and dug in the l0gz, found ~0
16:19 asciilifeform all i found were threads re various sad heathen wallets
16:20 mircea_popescu i recall a very early item, i don't expect much value buried there but lessee
16:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you don't mean http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/ do you ?
16:20 asciilifeform that was the closest item i found yea
16:21 asciilifeform but nuffin specifically re iron
16:21 mircea_popescu there's also http://trilema.com/2016/the-ideal-bitcoin-wallet/
16:21 mircea_popescu from ~the same period. but yes, there was some discussion, hm
16:22 mircea_popescu you know what, thios might've been private discussions in nsa boardroom during early cardano mockups etc ?
16:22 asciilifeform possibly
16:23 asciilifeform i regularly return , on chalkboard, to the subj, but on last visit to it realized that i'm something like a nonviolinist designing violin
16:23 asciilifeform ideally it'd be a mircea_popescu spec.
16:23 mircea_popescu problem is my thinking moved away from "hardware wallet" because, honestly, what's needed is a hardware computer.
16:23 asciilifeform aha!
16:24 mircea_popescu am i going to have no rng in this wallet ? how make change address then ?
16:24 mircea_popescu am i going to have rng ? how small can it then be ? if not small, and rng, why is it not using a proper terminal ?
16:24 mircea_popescu if using proper terminal why is it not rsatron ?
16:24 asciilifeform conceivably rng is separable, can simply be rs232 jack in which e.g. FG goes.
16:24 mircea_popescu fg is large enough to make this "hardware wallet" not a credit card.
16:24 asciilifeform correct
16:25 mircea_popescu there's no half inch dolphin either, and for a reason as well.
16:25 asciilifeform nothing of any import will ever be 'credit card' form factor, go an audit the whatever-nm chip
16:25 asciilifeform *and
16:25 asciilifeform more likely is briefcase.
16:25 mircea_popescu and if you're making your dolphin 100kgs, why are you making it a sea anemone, could just as well make it dolphin.
16:26 asciilifeform the only reason is that wallet dun need the same horsepower as 'general' comp, can be 8bit cpu etc
16:26 mircea_popescu last fucking thing i need is a pile of briefcases, each painted red, and labeled. "this one -- does hashing."
16:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but what it needs dun matter; thing is... what do you need ?
16:26 asciilifeform errybody already suffers the pile of briefcases. what i'd like is one that does walleting well.
16:26 asciilifeform 'well' includes, e.g., 'no c'
16:27 asciilifeform '0 opensores legacycrapola in the mix' and so forth.
16:27 mircea_popescu come to think of it, why am i even having "a wallet", as opposed to say a rsa'd privkey list.
↖
16:27 mircea_popescu "but mp, that's what you told them to make the wallet, and they did, back in 2012 or w/e"
16:27 asciilifeform well, trad bitcoin dun rsa
16:27 mircea_popescu reheheheally ?! look at that damned thing sometime. it's encrypted like i'm gay.
16:29 asciilifeform there's no rsa in trb
16:29 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm for the historically minded.
16:30 deedbot http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/06/26/euloras-own-cr50/ << Ossasepia - Euloras Own CR50
16:32 asciilifeform lol diana_coman neato
16:34 diana_coman asciilifeform, cheers! and updated with floating image because that screenshot was lousy beyond belief
16:35 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829932 << was contemplating 'wallet' in the sense of 'iron which actually signs', rather than mere bottle for keyz that get copied elsewhere to be arithmetized over
16:35 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 20:27 mircea_popescu: come to think of it, why am i even having "a wallet", as opposed to say a rsa'd privkey list.
16:36 asciilifeform ( the latter is quite useless heathen bauble )
16:39 mircea_popescu but my point is -- by the time this iron actually signs, this iron actually also manages signatures, and therefore this iron actually is a rsatron.
16:42 mircea_popescu anyway, the "how to cut" piece is the controlling element here, because i don't even recall if we came up wioth a definitive answer.
16:50 asciilifeform i'm partial to the cut where the signing device only needs a few kb of storage. ( no. 1 in mircea_popescu's taxonomy )
~ 16 minutes ~
17:06 mircea_popescu kiyleeslut rittle led tab on the right of this one
17:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform incidentally!
17:08 mircea_popescu s.mg would be amenable to a deal whereby s.nsa puts a custom built npc in eulora and handles exchanges of euloran microchips for its own products (atm, fg)
17:08 mircea_popescu something like that interesting to nsa ?
17:14 mircea_popescu o brother.
17:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: sounds like spiffy idea. ( all we'd need, is to restock, currently we're all sold )
17:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform we'll also need a little bit of code to handle it and i guess a special dolly yes ?
17:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: right. ( keep in mind, currently asciilifeform knows very little re subj, aside from diana_coman's mpi works )
17:17 mircea_popescu so here's some wonderment for today : random fetlife slut follows a webirc link (doh, what, irc exists ?!?!?!) and ends up here, at 14:58. sits here quietly, and patiently, until at 15:05 i say something. that's SEVEN WHOLE MINUTES. this alone, you know ? and then, puts another FOUR solid minutes in wtfing this thing, so that at 15:09 she can <kiyleeslut> Found it :).
17:17 mircea_popescu so this is going pretty good so far, yes ?
17:17 mircea_popescu ~at which point~ the whole flood starts. not earlier, or anything.
17:17 mircea_popescu how, just HOW did this entire tower of chair work out to the maximal annoyance point ? absolutely NOTHING the esltards do is nearly this good at any purpose they ever declare.
17:18 asciilifeform logging in from ipnoje ~guarantees this
17:18 mircea_popescu somehow some idiots produced "smartphones" for which some other idiots "wrote software" which other idiots are using, and the end delivery is THIS
17:18 asciilifeform it's rather unfortunate, possibly, that the www gate even works on ipnoje
17:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but my question is, HOW ? the iphone is not as watertight, not as long-lived, not as bright, colorful, not as ANYTHING as it is fucking annoying.
17:19 asciilifeform hey if it were 1994 they'd be logging in from aol and getting modem hangup and betcha similar picture.
17:19 mircea_popescu ten thousand people managed to coordinate to produce something that's 40% blue and 85% interesting and 62% warm and 92% square and 100.00% FUCKING ANNOYING.
17:19 mircea_popescu how is this outcome even possible.
17:19 asciilifeform pleeb net pipes are optimized , if for anyffing, for burst throughput , not uptime
17:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform precisely. how the fuck is this possible, if they worked at winning a war they'd lose, but when they don't work at sticking in my craw they manage.
17:20 * asciilifeform brb,meat
17:20 hanbot mircea_popescu by design apple exists to try and make you use its thing, whether it's some itam or some os or some cable, and it'll make things maximally unpleasant for anyone not on the bandwagon, at any point where the nonapple and the apple touch.
↖ ↖
17:21 mircea_popescu but how can they be this good at that ?
17:21 mircea_popescu they're not nearly as good at anything else.
17:21 mircea_popescu besides, i betcha she's on some droid thing, rather than apple specifically.
↖
17:21 mircea_popescu lessee
17:22 mircea_popescu iphone os 11_3 ok, you got it, crapple.
17:26 trinque thing's meant to train neuroses into the user, and amplifies them. neurotic brain's output is pretty damned annoying.
17:26 trinque she probably twitched away to some red dot, had to go get the food pellet
17:26 hanbot yup
17:27 mircea_popescu once my seething rage piped down it occured to me that "dood, what you're almost entirely about is a rejection of the lamenormal. why are you wondering that consummate normalcy gets you pissed off and why are you surprised it produces itself ?!"
↖
17:32 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: can you buy amazon gift cards for cash in uruguay?
17:32 mod6 cd
17:33 * mod6 does the head drop
17:33 ben_vulpes https://www.behance.net/gallery/66684621/Ural-Amazon << perhaps a candidate for mircea_popescu 's artist hunt
17:37 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: possibly stupid notion i had last night i'd like to float for your cfo-ly advice: with the exchange rate in the shitter, and the clear and present demand for fiat-denominated assets, how bad of an idea would it be to sell usd-denominated bonds? mod6 and asciilifeform thoughts also pls
~ 19 minutes ~
17:56 Mocky Lumber? those things must have been shat out of a wood chipper >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829882
17:56 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 19:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in further lulz : it's classified under... LUMBER
~ 21 minutes ~
18:17 BingoBoingo <ben_vulpes> BingoBoingo: can you buy amazon gift cards for cash in uruguay? << I can look. Since people tend to do Amazon through intermediaries here I don't suspect there's much of a market for the gift cards.
18:19 BingoBoingo Amazon only recently came to have an official though limited presence in Argentina
18:19 ben_vulpes amusing, because they handle the intermediation themselves now
18:21 BingoBoingo This isn't the US, latinos travel.
18:21 BingoBoingo Usually to other latino places or Miami, but still they do it
18:21 BingoBoingo That or they are abjectly poor
18:22 BingoBoingo But will investigate
18:24 BingoBoingo In other almost news there's now a WPA 3 standard for wifi crypto. "enterprise" version features "strong" 192 bit crypto
~ 19 minutes ~
18:44 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: as i understand, we're a ~bitcoin~ isp, not a usd isp...
18:44 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: and this absolves of the need to hedge?
18:45 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: see also thread http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1825172
18:45 a111 Logged on 2018-06-13 21:37 mircea_popescu: what, and turn it into a financial speculator ? usually firms go that way after making so much revenue they run out of capital goods they might buy
18:46 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829972 << pnojeism is a much larger problem than merely crapple, and is really an entire constellation of dysfunctions enabled not by the turdalicious gadgets themselves but, as iirc mircea_popescu pointed out repeatedly, by issuing pseudo-comps to folx who ought to be operating plows and oxcarts fulltime
18:46 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 21:21 mircea_popescu: besides, i betcha she's on some droid thing, rather than apple specifically.
18:47 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: and immediately thereafter http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1825184
18:47 a111 Logged on 2018-06-13 21:43 mircea_popescu: a more even split makes the "solar winds" 0-delta.
18:47 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'll be the 1st to point out that this puzzler is out of asciilifeform's depth, lessee what mircea_popescu thinks
18:48 * ben_vulpes waits
18:50 ben_vulpes if a 'javier' name shows up and my attention is elsewhere, someone please up the fellow, i'd like to build bridges out of lbtc and he might be one
18:58 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/26/and-then-there-was-light/ << Bingo Blog - And Then There Was Light
~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~
20:09 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes you mean, besides it being illegal ?
20:12 mircea_popescu meanwhile in the ongoin glulz, Biology-Babe 19F sub "I may be submissive by kink, but I am an strong independent women." LordMPofTMSR "Everyone thinks so." Biology-Babe "Jesus Christ. Fucking respect me you misogynistic douche" LordMPofTMSR "Nah."
↖
20:16 ben_vulpes illegal per usg "accredited investors" circus?
20:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-26#1829604 << wait what script ?!
20:16 a111 Logged on 2018-06-26 02:26 mod6: thanks for the script mircea_popescu!
20:16 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes well yes, you happen be raising children in a jurisdiction which has decided "issue fiat bonds" is a crown monolpoly.
20:16 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: probably the jooblocker
20:17 mircea_popescu i mean, i could also start a medicine w/o a license sideline for the same money.
20:17 mircea_popescu oh oh right.
20:17 mircea_popescu (contrary to common sense, these are pestilentially common in the us)
20:18 asciilifeform !#s fix-a-flat lipo
20:18 a111 0 results for "fix-a-flat lipo", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fix-a-flat%20lipo
20:18 asciilifeform hm.
20:18 mircea_popescu is this the "industrial silocone butt injection" ?
20:19 asciilifeform them
20:19 asciilifeform regular, if modest in scale, corpse generator in this here monkeystan
20:19 mircea_popescu myeah
20:20 * asciilifeform assumed that ben_vulpes simply duncare re moving up in the gassing queue
20:22 ben_vulpes there is the "convertible note", which is how the shartupists do a similar thing.
20:23 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the 'shartupists' are agents of usg crown in good standing.
20:23 ben_vulpes if mircea_popescu would spare a lecture on the notion, ex the usg gassing constraint, i would read intently.
20:23 mircea_popescu huh ?
20:26 ben_vulpes nevermind, i'll just read my kindleberger instead
20:26 asciilifeform lolwat
20:27 mircea_popescu does the thing have salespeople / funnel up yet ?
↖
20:29 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo and lobbes have been working the hosting forums, i don't know what 'funnel' to put together other than get folks to sign into the #pizarro chat room and get them accounts
20:30 mircea_popescu traditionally there's a landing page involved.
20:30 mircea_popescu a/b testing, a whole spiel.
20:33 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo has made http://pizarroisp.net/shared-hosting/ and finessed the copy on the rest of the site; isn't a/b testing on landing pages what you do after putting cash down on a CPM/CPC/CPA program?
20:34 mircea_popescu well, after having some sort of flow large enough to be statistically meaningful, yes.
20:36 ben_vulpes and with clickbank not touching btc, 'a(nonymous)-ads' out for not being in the wot all these years, i'm back to the drawing board on where to buy ads/how to drive traffic
~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
22:06 mircea_popescu so is the idea your contribution sums up to "i don't know how to organize sales and why don't we do more fiat things" ?
22:07 mircea_popescu there's about 500 billion fiat-like isps. you can probably buy euro-denominated bonds fron hetzner or ovh or w/e as it is.
22:07 mircea_popescu and they also implement the latest european commision directive or w/e they call the bullshit in-game.
~ 51 minutes ~
22:59 ben_vulpes i definitely don't know how to organize or drive sales, doing what i see needs doing, and what gets suggested to me, and float my own (bad) ideas. i'm in no way attached to "fiat things". because the exchange rate is eroding capitalization so brutally i thought it worthwhile to take another one on the chin in case this particular bad idea had some flake of merit in it.
23:00 mircea_popescu yeah, the downmovement caught you overcapitalized/underequipped did it.
23:01 ben_vulpes 100%
23:02 mircea_popescu fortunately, it was yet small.
23:02 ben_vulpes betting that the bill for the rockchip plant is going to hurt by the same token
23:02 ben_vulpes !!up mobile436523 hola
23:02 deedbot mobile436523 voiced for 30 minutes.
23:04 mircea_popescu what can you do.
23:12 ben_vulpes during the day: sweat! during the night: sweat! but also stare at the ceiling
23:13 mircea_popescu at least you get to come.
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