Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-04-15 | 2022-04-17 → ↓
00:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: see e.g.
00:27 asciilifeform phf: also consider rain + vandalism + inept 'repairs'
00:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096069 << aaand they weren't fed mcd or velveeta...
00:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-15 16:47:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095868 Yes. The more I read about Roman slaves, the more it seems they had it about the same as many workers, with the exception they wouldn't be thrown away at the slightest inconvenience.
00:30 * asciilifeform easily buys selected allegations of 'faux sphinxes', but not wholesale
~ 27 minutes ~
00:57 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096012 << this would be rather welcome.
00:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-15 14:31:56 phf: i think at some point i want to make a list of mandatory books. something like that was implicit with su intelligentsia "everyone" knew which books one was supposed to read. it won't necessarily be tmsr friendly, tolkien will be on it..
00:58 signpost there are plenty I consider indispensible, would contribute.
00:59 signpost particularly my favorite kindly old nazi, heidegger.
01:00 crtdaydreams I wrote a http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=QrgS any tips?
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01:00 crtdaydreams oh.
01:00 crtdaydreams *fun program
01:03 crtdaydreams i seem to remember I could use progn to simplify (yucky use of eval)
01:05 signpost throughout the years, discussed the notion of a shared corpus.
01:05 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-09-13 trinque: I'd rather have the index of the right man's bookshelf than access to every landfill on earth for free
01:05 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-11 trinque: in other failed social theories, I bought that Britannica Great Books of the Western World
01:05 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-11-12 trinque: asciilifeform: take a picture of the book spines before selling, for teh uneducated youf
01:08 crtdaydreams mebbe booklist.genesis? that way any reader can see who added certain books and inquire about them if it's a vtree
01:08 signpost hell, I'll go through my own bookshelf soon and post a selection of suggested reading.
01:08 signpost crtdaydreams: seems most appropriate for respective blogs
01:09 crtdaydreams ah
~ 36 minutes ~
01:46 crtdaydreams would also like to know if there has ever been (or ever will be) a use-case for homoiconicity
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01:48 crtdaydreams (at least in the explicit fashion as above.) it's obviously necessary for macros
~ 16 minutes ~
02:04 verisimilitude So everyone here will look through my recommended reading articles, or has been looking already, then?
02:06 verisimilitude It has been years since I've recommended everything I review.
02:06 verisimilitude Perhaps my titles should reflect whether something be recommended or not.
~ 23 minutes ~
02:30 asciilifeform 1 caveat of 'corpus of books' is that many have very diff effect when read in childhood. rather like how you can eat all the meat you like as adult, won't grow even a mm
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02:30 asciilifeform (other than, lol, in width)
02:36 signpost kiddos section can be useful for those eventually going to feed kiddos same.
02:36 asciilifeform there yes
02:44 crtdaydreams what am I doing wrong?
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02:46 crtdaydreams http://www.loper-os.org/?p=4003#selection-1284.0-1284.1
02:56 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096101 << i think it should almost exclusively be kiddos books.
02:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-15 22:28:58 asciilifeform: 1 caveat of 'corpus of books' is that many have very diff effect when read in childhood. rather like how you can eat all the meat you like as adult, won't grow even a mm
03:01 phf like everyone should've read the three musketeers, but further up the age group you go the more non-obvious the must haves become. there's a tendency to recommend the recent "thinker" you've read, which i don't think is particularly useful
03:01 asciilifeform 'wiki.thinkers' -- straight to stoke furnace imho
03:02 phf yeah
03:02 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096096 << see e.g. trivial example
03:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-15 21:45:27 crtdaydreams: would also like to know if there has ever been (or ever will be) a use-case for homoiconicity
03:06 phf like, i'd start from the beginning, what should be the first book one reads, when one is able to read? tom sawyer maybe, white fang, treasure island? :)
03:06 * asciilifeform at one pt rec'd 'for adults' e.g. feynman's 3parter 'physics', knuth, etc. but how many have time & patience to actually work through these? (e.g. asciilifeform worked through maybe 100, max , exercised in aop, and has no illusions re living longenuff to 'all of it')
03:07 asciilifeform or take feynman's thing, or better -- landau's -- to eat it w/out choking need rather good undergrad prep.
03:08 asciilifeform and the itch to even consider.
03:08 asciilifeform and 'over9000' spare time.
03:09 phf there's definitely "tracks" up the age bracket
03:11 phf i'm reading jeff cooper's the art of rifle. man was a legend, "the art of..." is a foundational book on rifle handling, but, like, landau, will be lost on somebody who's not on this track (of course one can read landau and cooper, and practice what they write, but...)
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03:11 * asciilifeform for intelligent adult w/out maffs diploma or equiv. recs 'flying circus of physics'. (or the wonderful su transl., even better!)
03:12 asciilifeform phf: not read 'art of rifle', but last yr went to meatspace course re subj, was a++ (tho wish were longer..)
03:18 asciilifeform almost ideal imho example of a subj where no amt of book can possibly substitute for hands-on
03:20 phf but also almost an ideal subject where hands on without book is possible and done pervasively, but could be much better with a bit of book learnan'
03:21 asciilifeform indeed
03:26 signpost as a college dropout who managed to hold hat out like a pauper for books of mentors, the lack of a working mechanism to produce this "corpus digestible in one lifetime, which will produce an educated man" is the surest sign of my culture's bankruptcy.
03:27 signpost did alright holding out the hat, but my luck is no standard for a society.
03:32 asciilifeform re 'nuts & bolts' 'for adults', situation in usa used to be ~very~ different. e.g. l.hogben's 'mathematics for the million' (1936) used to be bestseller; in late '90s was still in print, saw in shops. today forgotten ~entirely.
03:34 asciilifeform (1337 w4r3z)
03:34 asciilifeform example of 'for intelligent adult, who snored through school or simply born too late', from english world
03:35 asciilifeform today whole genre ~extinct
03:36 asciilifeform re fiction -- phf's list is solid start.
03:42 asciilifeform in other vintage engl. 'practicals' for younger folx. tho will evoke laffs from modern folx, 'wai make own clothes hanger, when chinesium fiddycents' 'ohnoez, recipe req's kcn!'
03:50 asciilifeform primo example, tho, of work from world before 'infinite' disposable plastic shite.
03:51 asciilifeform anuther 'adult' rec (in fact multiply mentioned in logs) -- horowitz&hill 'electronics'
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03:52 asciilifeform notable for, among other things, featuring extensive examples of subtly-wrong solutions, and inviting reader to 'find where'
03:53 asciilifeform ( for moar directly 'practical' bent -- f.mims )
03:53 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-05-22 shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-19#1815611 <<< warez available: http://btcinfo.sdf.org/library/ForrestMims3rdEdition.pdf
03:53 asciilifeform ^ hey shinohai , 404 ?
03:54 asciilifeform who wants, can likely find in 5min
03:55 asciilifeform for thread-completeness, would mention abelson&sussman, but erryone tuned in likely knows of it
03:55 asciilifeform for intelligent children, re subj -- friedman & felleisen's 'schemer' series.
03:57 asciilifeform all of above, from asciilifeform's engl. bookcase, in 'luvved to death in high school' dust collector section.
03:59 asciilifeform for thread-completeness, add hofstadter's entertaining (if mathematically 'light') pieces.
04:02 * signpost intends to sit down with g-e-b, what is called thinking, and similar with a vial of acid in retirement.
04:03 asciilifeform since already commited the 'sin' of including schoolbooks, will also throw in palmer&colton's 'history of modern world'. have fed it to 'curious adults' w/ some success.
04:06 asciilifeform ^ reasonably good engl. treatment of 'what, who, whom' in europistan of past 500y
04:09 * asciilifeform went to (american!) school where worked from text, and made to draw the movements of the borders, with the fixed ref landmarks, etc. hated at the time, but all still 'in head' today fwiw, muchly useful in making sense of over9000 things, and in e.g. not being the slightest 'awed' by mp's fomenko-style 'historical' excursions
~ 44 minutes ~
04:53 scoopbot New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: A Review of the ``Empire of Dust: China in Africa'' Documentary
04:58 verisimilitude I didn't care for ``Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid''.
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04:58 verisimilitude That's the book with which I shifted from ``Recommend Reading'' to ``A Review of''.
04:59 verisimilitude I made a mistake.
04:59 verisimilitude That's the book with which I shifted from ``Recommended Reading'' to ``A Review of''.
~ 55 minutes ~
05:54 verisimilitude To adlai: I've fixed that horizontal screen space waste issue on my website. Look at the Iframe option added to the grey bar of the prime index.
~ 2 hours 43 minutes ~
08:38 mangol crtdaydreams: re these things, see "metacircular interpreter" in SICP or elsewhere
08:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-16 01:00:27 crtdaydreams: I wrote a http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=QrgS any tips?
08:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-16 01:46:38 crtdaydreams: would also like to know if there has ever been (or ever will be) a use-case for homoiconicity
08:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-16 02:44:57 crtdaydreams: what am I doing wrong?
08:38 mangol you can write a lisp interpreter in lisp, and a lisp interpreter that runs in a lisp interpreter written in lisp, etc. most of the time, you don't.
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08:39 mangol normally it's simpler to use `defmacro` (or `define-syntax` in scheme)
08:40 mangol often even simpler to use a readily available function or macro that someone else wrote and debugged.
08:41 mangol re: homoiconicity, i still don't understand what it means. like others on this chan, i'm skeptical that "programs as self-manipulating strings" makes sense. the fact that lisp macros work on syntax trees, not strings, is the right thing.
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~ 17 minutes ~
08:58 verisimilitude Lisp is represented as lists; Lisp manipulates lists; that's homoiconicity.
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~ 44 minutes ~
09:43 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096159 << I know that is possible, metacircularity != homoiconicity.
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09:43 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 04:37:43 mangol: you can write a lisp interpreter in lisp, and a lisp interpreter that runs in a lisp interpreter written in lisp, etc. most of the time, you don't.
09:50 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096162 Lisp isn't "strings", as verisimilitiude mentioned, the feature of lisp code itself being a data structure -- lists -- is why it's homoiconic in nature. I am also skeptical that it should be used for use cases such as how I've used it, smells fishy
09:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 04:40:22 mangol: re: homoiconicity, i still don't understand what it means. like others on this chan, i'm skeptical that "programs as self-manipulating strings" makes sense. the fact that lisp macros work on syntax trees, not strings, is the right thing.
09:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 04:57:46 verisimilitude: Lisp is represented as lists; Lisp manipulates lists; that's homoiconicity.
09:50 crtdaydreams like generating new symbols with name-extensions.
09:54 crtdaydreams mebbe I'm the only one mad enough (or stupid) to even try something like this, but 'twas fun experiment
09:56 verisimilitude No, symbol-creation is a recognized advantage Common Lisp has over Scheme.
~ 3 hours 19 minutes ~
13:15 shinohai hlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096139 << asciilifeform sry this lives @ http://btc.info.gf/devel/warez/ForrestMims3rdEdition.pdf
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13:16 * shinohai moved his entire www to server under own control and left sdf behind.
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~ 34 minutes ~
13:50 mangol crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: i'm not convinced you've got the right definition of homoiconicity
13:50 mangol [https://www.expressionsofchange.org/dont-say-homoiconic/][Don't say “Homoiconic”
13:51 mangol i've never taken the time to parse that essay, but he seems to say the term should be reserved for programs-as-strings languages
13:52 mangol (why not taken the time to parse? because i don't find the question itself very interesting and CS terminology is generally half-baked, so not necessarily worth the effort to "understand" it)
13:52 mangol but what that essay made me do was to stop saying "homoiconic" as if i understood what it means
13:54 mangol http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096164 << you were essentially making a little meta-circular interpreter, without realizing that that was the main point of what you were doing
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13:54 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-16 09:43:57 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096159 << I know that is possible, metacircularity != homoiconicity.
13:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 04:37:43 mangol: you can write a lisp interpreter in lisp, and a lisp interpreter that runs in a lisp interpreter written in lisp, etc. most of the time, you don't.
13:55 mangol one of the stepping stones to getting lisp is to understand that lisp can interpret lisp
13:55 mangol eval does that; macros do that; tailor made code generators do that
13:57 mangol my point was, that with lisp as with psychedelics, http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-17#1085322
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13:57 bitbot Logged on 2022-03-17 19:13:21 signpost: verisimilitude: "When you get the message, hang up the phone." - Alan Watts
13:58 mangol just because you can pile any number of lisp interpreters on top of each other doesn't mean there's a point to it. it's fun to know how you can.
13:59 mangol and it's occasionally very useful, but generally not
14:03 mangol another step on the way, which i can't tell whether or not you and/or verisimilitude are missing, is that macros and eval are not that different. some people say "wow, you can do stuff at runtime". but one of the points behind things like lispm and forth is that there doesn't have to be a clear separation between various "time"s.
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14:04 mangol eval isn't more impressive than macros, or vice versa.
14:04 mangol eval is just a baked-in version of stuff you can do by rolling your own metacircular interpreter
14:05 mangol defmacro is there so you don't have to roll your own preprocessor (which you'd again implement as a metacircular interpreter)
14:06 mangol basically, at some point (when you're ready), stop thinking about "wow, i can do stuff at runtime" or "wow, i can do stuff at compile time", "wow, eval", "wow, macro", etc.
14:07 mangol replace all that in your head with "i can make domain specific languages". the specific detail of how you happen to make the DSL at any given time - use macro, eval, `compile`, preprocessor, lisp interpreter written in Python, etc. is not very interesting re: the fundamental activity
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14:07 mangol more generally, there are a lot of people around lisp who fetishize things that are more properly viewed as implementation details and historical accidents
14:08 mangol "wow, linked list is so much better than vector", etc.
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14:08 mangol these people are active on every lisp forum and they slow the evolution of lisp. try to avoid becoming one of them.
14:13 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096173 << a. ty shinohai
14:13 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 09:14:59 shinohai: moved his entire www to server under own control and left sdf behind.
14:15 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096188 << removal of batch processing (an archaicism of paper card era that lives on to this day in shitwaredom) is impressive to noobs, in exactly the same way penicillin was impressive
14:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:02:40 mangol: another step on the way, which i can't tell whether or not you and/or verisimilitude are missing, is that macros and eval are not that different. some people say "wow, you can do stuff at runtime". but one of the points behind things like lispm and forth is that there doesn't have to be a clear separation between various "time"s.
14:17 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096193 << the listed approaches are not equivalent.
14:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:05:53 mangol: replace all that in your head with "i can make domain specific languages". the specific detail of how you happen to make the DSL at any given time - use macro, eval, `compile`, preprocessor, lisp interpreter written in Python, etc. is not very interesting re: the fundamental activity
14:18 asciilifeform ( even if from mathematical pov 'the fundamental activity is same' )
14:19 asciilifeform they're 'equivalent' only in the sense that the chair yer sitting on and a pile of rusty nails are 'equivalent'. 'could sit on it'
14:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096184 << that 'phone' is still talking tho, is saying 'throw out the idjit impedance-mismatched cmachine irons!'
14:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 09:55:57 mangol: my point was, that with lisp as with psychedelics, http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-17#1085322
14:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096150 << imho belongs squarely on the 'for children' list.
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14:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 00:56:53 verisimilitude: I didn't care for ``Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid''.
~ 52 minutes ~
15:14 mangol asciilifeform: the point i was clumsily making is that the power of DSLs is you can hide stuff, but a lot of lispers get on the opposite track and like to show off the minutiae of how lisp implements the scaffolding for DSLs
15:16 mangol for me, "peak lisp" was when i stopped caring about which particular lisp implementation/dialect i'm using, and how it translates a DSL to runtime and/or compile time behavior, and just started designing DSLs that are good to use
15:17 mangol when you adopt that frame of mind, you also start designing DSLs that translate easily to different environments
15:17 mangol which gets you to the point of DSLs, which is that they capture only the essential aspects of a problem domain
15:18 mangol "low-level programming = you have to pay attention to the irrelevant" (said by fred brooks iirc)
15:19 mangol a lot of lispers (maybe most of the current crop) revere at the high-level nature of lisp, but then go on to be concerned with the lowest-level aspects they can find within the high-level framework that was handed down to them
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15:30 mangol one of the luxuries DSLs afford is "timeless" programming; instead of thinking about compile time vs run time, you can design a DSL that works at any "time"
15:36 mangol (note: it took me many years to grasp the above. as a noob i was also fetishizing cons cells and eval, because that was the culture that i picked up by osmosis. i assume the original culture around the AI Lab was based around more high-level thinking.)
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~ 23 minutes ~
16:00 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096193 << why is it always the same punchline
16:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:05:53 mangol: replace all that in your head with "i can make domain specific languages". the specific detail of how you happen to make the DSL at any given time - use macro, eval, `compile`, preprocessor, lisp interpreter written in Python, etc. is not very interesting re: the fundamental activity
~ 15 minutes ~
16:16 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096179 << there's no meta-circularity in his code. the language he's constructing can't express any other thought beyond `expt` for which he wrote a creative translator. ffs.
16:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 09:53:33 mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096164 << you were essentially making a little meta-circular interpreter, without realizing that that was the main point of what you were doing
16:24 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096216 << that whole subthread is silly and self serving. the whole DSL movement was part and parcel of the second lisp revival. paul graham's two lisp books, on lisp and ansi common lisp explicitly explored the subject of DSLs (he credited the success of yahoo stores to his ability to write small languages). the idea of DSLs was also picked up by python and ruby developers around
16:24 phf that same time, because there was a lot of cross polination. that was also the period when both of your profound thoughts were driven into the ground: people abused python/ruby's syntax to create cute dsls for everything, and the format of "X is good enough lisp" essays started popping up, expressing very similar thoughts. "it's all turing complete maaan, you just need to thiiink like a lisper"
16:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 11:35:32 mangol: (note: it took me many years to grasp the above. as a noob i was also fetishizing cons cells and eval, because that was the culture that i picked up by osmosis. i assume the original culture around the AI Lab was based around more high-level thinking.)
16:29 phf dsls mindset died outside of lisp very rapidly, because outside of a handful of domains (HTML generation primarily) they had problems, of which there was many which i can go into if there's interest. in the lisp community dsls mostly died out because there was a pushback on the following grounds: most devs are not language designers, their dsls are half baked, they often ignore or attempt to intentionally replace existing approaches
16:35 phf the scars of the later are still all over lisp code: various compatability libraries, that bring "modern" practices, which are simply attempts to bring ruby's or clojure's way of handling basic types (strings, or lists) into the language core. consider something like https://github.com/magnars/dash.el. it's called dash because there's a my little pony called dash, but they also use dash to prefix all their functions! isn't it cute!
16:35 phf teeeheee!
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16:46 phf btw the "it's all lisp" mindset is fundamentally anti ai lab. not because those guys were some kind of language purists, but on purely pragmatic grounds: lisp is a family of languages, which at some point all coexisted in the ecosystem. when you said "lisp" you meant a derivative of maclisp (lisp machine lisp later to become zetalisp, perq's spicelisp, interlisp), and the code was close enough to portable between systems. you can take
16:46 phf zetalisp non-system code and run it on sbcl providing a handful of compatability functions, and it will have similar semantics and work against a similar idea of a "machine"
16:48 phf so yeah ai lab people wrote a bunch of high level stuff and plenty of dsls, but they wrote it in a specific language, to the language's strengths, etc.
~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~
19:04 verisimilitude I'll write ``homoiconicity'' as I please, mangol.
19:04 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096188 Common Lisp has a sickening amount of ``times'', actually.
19:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:02:40 mangol: another step on the way, which i can't tell whether or not you and/or verisimilitude are missing, is that macros and eval are not that different. some people say "wow, you can do stuff at runtime". but one of the points behind things like lispm and forth is that there doesn't have to be a clear separation between various "time"s.
19:06 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096195 This be compared to people who think exactly the opposite, the people who have eliminated the very idea of lists with ``amortized'' vector ``lists''?
19:06 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:06:57 mangol: "wow, linked list is so much better than vector", etc.
19:08 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096214 It's necessary when, say, writing SHA.
19:08 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 11:18:04 mangol: a lot of lispers (maybe most of the current crop) revere at the high-level nature of lisp, but then go on to be concerned with the lowest-level aspects they can find within the high-level framework that was handed down to them
19:09 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096226 That's bad compared to FUCKGOATS?
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19:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 12:34:03 phf: teeeheee!
19:09 verisimilitude Live a little, phf. I'd rather be silly than ``professional''.
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19:11 verisimilitude The better approach, mangol, is to discard entirely the model of programming ``languages'', and to move towards programming tools.
~ 16 minutes ~
19:28 billymg !c trb-status
19:28 crawlerbot 75.106.222.93 (Could not connect!), h=732153, v=99999, United States - peers: 239 - last probed: 23m ago
19:28 crawlerbot 103.36.92.112 (Alive), h=732160, v=99999, Singapore - peers: 70 - last probed: 27m ago
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19:28 crawlerbot 205.134.172.6 (Alive), h=732160, v=99999, United States - peers: 22 - last probed: 28m ago
19:28 crawlerbot 103.6.212.28 (Alive), h=457749, v=99999, New Zealand - peers: 22 - last probed: 23m ago
19:28 crawlerbot 205.134.172.26 (Alive), h=732160, v=99999, United States - peers: 15 - last probed: 27m ago
19:28 crawlerbot 205.134.172.27 (Alive), h=732160, v=99999, United States - peers: 9 - last probed: 27m ago
19:30 billymg new site is up and all crawler related stuff has been temporarily moved to ec2. the logger is still on the rk in asciilifeform's rack, only now with more resources to itself
19:31 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096239 << that is not my point
19:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 15:08:32 verisimilitude: Live a little, phf. I'd rather be silly than ``professional''.
19:32 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-12#1095303 << i actually just spent a couple days last week putting together a gentoo file server / htpc out of some spare parts. was a fun project
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19:32 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-12 00:42:35 phf: i've routed everything to the server at this point. i.e. music plays from a 10T freebsd backup
19:33 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095624 << i'll add this if asciilifeform doesn't beat me to it, i have a list of a few other UX tweaks i've been meaning to make
19:33 bitbot Logged on 2022-04-14 15:32:43 asciilifeform: prolly oughta make it bidirectional. has been on pheature wishlist for aeons
19:36 verisimilitude What's the point, then, phf? It's fine to fuck goats, but not to fuck horses?
19:43 phf verisimilitude: a master of craft can make a joke whenever he pleases, but lack of seriousness is a compounding factor of amateurish work
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19:44 verisimilitude I don't see how the name dash makes it less serious.
19:45 verisimilitude Even when I be not serious, I still be not amateurish.
19:46 phf verisimilitude: they are amateurish therefore their lack of seriousness is compounding, not the other way around.
19:48 verisimilitude How is the work amateurish; I've not inspected it beyond looking for malicious code, when I took a copy as a dependency for something else I was loading.
19:51 phf verisimilitude: if you were to reflect upon the thread from which you've extracted this immaterial bit, what would be your assumption as to what i consider amateurish in this case?
19:53 verisimilitude I'd think it would be the very existence of the library, right?
19:58 phf verisimilitude: well, that's true, but that's evident from structure of the text, i'm bringing up the library as an example of bad things that exists, but what's the substance of the text? specifically why would writing a compatability library to another language be amateurish?
19:59 verisimilitude That depends.
20:00 verisimilitude One reason would be the language being bad.
20:03 phf verisimilitude: that is not the answer to the question i posed though. you can test it yourself: "writing a compatability library to another language is amateurish because the language is bad"
20:04 verisimilitude That's a valid sentence to me.
20:04 verisimilitude It screams that one would rather use that language than Lisp.
20:05 verisimilitude However, the advantage of Lisp is that it can do this, so I don't necessarily see an issue.
20:06 phf verisimilitude: you're not working with the sentence though, you're working with a point that you're trying to make. "writing a compatability library to another language, because the language is bad" is what you're discussing. /how does it make it amateurish then?/
20:07 verisimilitude I'll be blunt: I'm writing several different things right now, so I may not be all here.
~ 40 minutes ~
20:48 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096264 << moreover the novice uses "tee hee ponies" to deflect being evaluated by *others* seriously.
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20:48 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 15:41:52 phf: verisimilitude: a master of craft can make a joke whenever he pleases, but lack of seriousness is a compounding factor of amateurish work
20:48 signpost when they want their dicks sucked, it's their greatest work. when they're embarassed about their shrinkage, it's just a silly lib named after ponies.
20:51 signpost isn't even an idle use of mp's everything-is-sexual schtick. the form of it is hiding from elder male's wrath with subbie signaling.
20:51 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096237 << lol, take it up w/ mp's zombie, was his name
20:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 15:07:52 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096226 That's bad compared to FUCKGOATS?
20:52 signpost hey I thought it was funny
20:53 signpost IMMORTALEYE, etc
20:54 asciilifeform signpost: notion iirc wasn't even the funny, but to troll idjits. (imho wasted effort, they wouldn't have mentioned it in any case)
20:54 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096207 << I'm entertained by arrogant, broad hypotheses. see also: Jaynes
20:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 10:21:37 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096150 << imho belongs squarely on the 'for children' list.
20:54 signpost asciilifeform: yeah, "this will trigger the Very Serious"
20:55 asciilifeform fwiw pete d.'s lulzy seekrit reseller shop (fughet how , but he renamed it) sold 0
20:55 asciilifeform whole exercise went moar or less as asciilifeform expected it would go.
20:56 signpost woof, guy's pimping NFTs now.
20:56 asciilifeform for coupla yrs nao
20:57 asciilifeform lamer needs a trng like dog needs beets. afaik of the 200 sold, maybe handful ever plugged in.
20:57 signpost low effort to jam a minus sign in front of tmsr, not surprised.
20:58 asciilifeform ( recall, per orig. charter, 100% of onus for marketing was on mp )
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20:58 asciilifeform charter naturally was worth approx. as much as the minsk accords.
20:59 * signpost recalls a thread I had with mp on how to generate demand for products.
20:59 asciilifeform (pissed on immed)
20:59 signpost long and short of it was "You loudly be a man, and everyone falls at your feet!"
20:59 asciilifeform lol
21:00 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-07#1934677 << here it is.
21:00 dulapbot (trilema) 2019-09-07 mircea_popescu: market schmarket, markets are created not identified.
21:00 signpost arrogant drivel
21:03 signpost in other news, grunted gmp, mpfr, mpc, isl, cloog outta the binutils and gcc trees into their own patches.
21:03 signpost so much shit keistered in these projects.
21:03 signpost phf: getting closer to sharing something with ya, but I'm going to wait until the bootstrap works completely.
21:04 signpost nothing worse than picking up someone else's code that almost does something that's easier to explain when it... does!
21:11 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092895 << how much of this is steel sharpening steel, and how much a runaway game of status trivia?
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21:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-05 00:29:36 phf: most people for whom that music was compose could also play it, so it wasn't just listening, it was listening with a professional's ear. "oh that's a very sad take, but that's because your beloved died from plague my dearest richard" or whatever
21:20 signpost not the man who plays the sad take, but the man who knows each player's variation for the purpose of saying so.
21:22 signpost in the former case, best example I care about is voodoo chile, hendrix vs stevie ray vaughan.
21:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096298 << see also lulzthread ftr
21:22 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 16:57:08 asciilifeform: ( recall, per orig. charter, 100% of onus for marketing was on mp )
21:22 dulapbot Logged on 2019-11-08 20:36:20 asciilifeform: dorion: i'ma however support the 'forcibly reformat' claim. observe the charter section 3.2c :
21:25 signpost hendrix has that funky, sexy, acid drenched falling down the rabbit hole. roaring chaos. vaughan, hauling ass in a desert, cigarette hanging from lip, girl's hair blowing, top down, etc.
~ 24 minutes ~
21:50 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096311 << is the implication that it's mostly runaway game of status trivia? i don't think so, not from historic accounts anyway
21:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 17:10:30 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1092895 << how much of this is steel sharpening steel, and how much a runaway game of status trivia?
21:50 signpost no, I see both ends, and gave an example closest to my own experience.
21:51 phf thread was about culture that en mass existed in 19th century last and maybe survived into early 20th. not talking about modern "appreciation"
21:52 phf "variation" here is a live experience from a party of friends
21:54 phf like imagine everyone of your friends could play, all "passably", some good, and a handful exquisite. you go to a party and at some point it's like "jack play us a tune" and he's like "oh no i wouldn't" and everyone's like "jack, please" and eventually he starts playing and it's liszt's mephisto waltz no1
21:54 signpost it's noteworthy that it didn't survive, and I'm more curiously contemplating the limits of the social process than dismissing it.
21:55 phf signpost: it's not survived because it's demanding
21:55 phf there was a point in time, when e.g. hendrix, if he was alive and playing what he plays would've been considered "folk" art, because requires no skill to appreciate, and less than total skill to play
21:56 signpost yeah, that was the unquestioned elitism I was trying to surface, haha
21:56 phf hendrix was inspired, but he also hams all the time, because it still sounds good with the electric distortion
21:56 signpost there was another gent mentioned.
21:57 phf signpost: i think it's /a shame/ and nothing else to throw out baby with bathwater
21:57 signpost at any rate this thing's a social filter.
21:57 phf god damn it
21:58 signpost you're really easy to rile up, my dude.
21:58 signpost perhaps you can instead say which baby is lost in what bathwater.
21:58 phf signpost: some of this subjects is like banging the head against wall
21:59 signpost only because you're intent on perceiving the other as holding a particular view.
21:59 phf signpost: i can't react to anything but words! and the views ultimately manifest in actions
21:59 signpost there are these topics you consider holy, that no one may map by questioning.
22:00 phf signpost: i think some of this subjects ebb and flow, and i often observe them collapse to the same handful of tropes
22:00 phf everything of high culture ultimately collapse to "thems cigar smoking aristocrats just pretend"
22:01 phf why does everything needs to be deconstructed?
22:01 signpost heh, the very idea that I, being representative of the low, deconstructed the thing.
22:01 signpost thing was in pieces well before I fell out of my mother.
22:02 signpost and yes, I know the other definition, but they're not unrelated.
22:03 signpost anyway, the post-sovworld screeching at a question that may not be answered is a descendent of the interpersonal hatred that system mass produced.
22:03 signpost it has very little to do with anything I said here.
22:04 phf signpost: some of these stories we tell each other are myths, in the anthropological sense. my frustration is that of a little boy telling other little boy about magical pixie land just past the bend of the river, and getting back "it's all fairy tales, there's no magical pixie land" :p
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22:04 signpost this must be a tiring headvoice with whom to talk indeed.
22:06 phf signpost: my choice is basically between hard realists for whom all high culture was a bunch of inbread posers if it existed at all, and high culture sycophants that just looooove brahms. i want more people to penetrate between those two, into the transcendental realm
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22:06 signpost one might want to parse through this, and find the pieces of that culture that broke, parts that didn't.
22:07 phf i'm going to ride horses, god damn it, because andrey balkonsky did, and i will ride it the way he did it, and i will thus hold myself to higher, unrealistic standards
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22:08 signpost I'll feign a problem with this if it will keep your blood pressure high. :)
22:09 signpost didn't I just write a piece about the broken mechanism of conceptualizing the ideal man?
22:10 signpost phf: how is this "I will hold myself to" distinguish itself from verisimilitude's autoeroticism?
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22:10 signpost *does
22:11 signpost try to not get galled, and bother to say. does it make you better generally, or specifically?
22:12 signpost say you claim generally. how does someone come along and see the distinction between the paths that build a whole man, and not?
22:13 phf signpost: but that's easy, matthew 7:16 :D
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22:14 phf i like how christians have their own "log"
22:14 * signpost still reads the bible in this manner.
22:15 signpost on the long view of history yurp's fruits are pretty rotten.
22:15 signpost what I'm saying is not that the men you admire were not great, some trope.
22:15 signpost there's a problem, in the hardest sense, that the magnificent machine breaks this way.
22:15 signpost and there is no known other.
22:16 signpost believe in god again, say. I'll wait.
22:16 phf signpost: but machines tend to break
22:17 phf i can't resent yurp for being born at the time everything broke, past that time significantly.
22:19 phf well, we're all over the place now. as far as "what makes a whole man", there's more to say: there's plenty of available blueprints to go by, even maybe a mixture of, but the problem is in my mind that the solipsists refuse to choose any, staying instead in this detached "all things are equal, and all things are equally stupid" kind of state
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22:19 signpost nah, and the resentment would be pleading to absent god, which is incoherent.
22:19 signpost we're not, it's the same topic.
22:19 signpost it's entirely unclear how you separate the solipsists, and I say that fully aware that I use that hammer myself regularly.
22:21 phf i'm not saying that andrey bolkonsky (one of the main characters in war and piece) is the blueprint any more then natty bumppo is
22:23 phf i'm saying that there's plenty of blueprints which are there exactly for that purpose. the three musketeer's unabashed swagger and bravado should be an inspiration to young men
22:25 phf war and piece is written as a struggle between characters, so that the reader can try on a variety of opinions and views to himself, and see the outcome of his decisions without having to comit to them irl. i mean it's at least partial purpose of most fiction, the didactic element
22:26 signpost mhm, and the end result, the culture of men with shared context, flows out of a process of selection where men with the most useful models end up at the same parties.
22:28 phf (brb)
22:31 phf maybe common rather than same models, and then parties in a broad sense
22:31 signpost yes, there are many useful models, and much interesting conversation involves transforming concepts between them.
22:32 phf if you hunt from your pickup truck, you'll be having coors with like minded individuals around where you parked, but if you're a few hours in on foot, walking with your scout rifle, likely you've at least read gary snider
22:38 signpost see, I've done the deep hike, but would've passed on the beatnik if I ever encountered him. this is no measure of the beatnik's value.
22:38 phf signpost: this also doesn't detract from the deep hike
22:40 phf but that actually goes back to the "many useful models" comment, which i find suspicious. some kind of all permisive pluralism hides there :>
22:40 signpost not stepping into the adversarial role for which you have a precached attack, heh!
22:41 signpost I was leading up to there being *too many*
22:41 signpost and this thwarting the synthesis of a culture.
22:43 phf signpost: i don't actually agree that there's too many. i think it's the mass of model-less that create this illusion, and mostly from their own words
22:44 signpost this algo that everyone who matters will have already walked the correct path was run.
22:45 * signpost is a thief in this regard, rather than someone who remembers the old culture.
22:46 phf models are archetypal, as per joseph campbell
22:47 phf signpost: that's a very tmsr position though, i think a softer version would be "inform of the path", "help take first step along the path", "guide further along the path" etc. applies to different people at different times
22:48 * signpost considers that which tells phf there is a "the path" will die next.
22:48 phf i look at people who have their own thing going the way a black panther might look at a skin head. "i'd kill you, but i respect you, because you do for your own people" or whatever :>
22:50 signpost sure, I went headlong into a few german philosophers, and then look at topics like these and wonder that anyone can author a traditional identity.
22:50 signpost notably their cultural branch lost the hell out of a war.
22:50 signpost late heidegger benefits from it, I think. he's dead/free.
22:51 signpost fwiw I don't begrudge the ability to construct such a meaningful place to sit. at all.
22:52 phf signpost: i don't believe that was a point of contention either
22:53 signpost to make things practical, we appear to be approaching the culmination of whatever european culture has been.
22:53 signpost splat.
22:54 signpost you could be entirely right, that there is no such thing as a stable culture.
22:55 phf signpost: it was customary in roman empire to hire greeks as teachers. not implying i'll be one, saying that cultures die.
22:57 phf i'm convinced though that this "european culture" we're discussing died sometime in the 1920s, was supported by sons and grandsons, out of habit, or more likely proper upbringing through the next 40-50 years.
22:58 phf there's been like a few decades where old men, who remember the war, lamented that "they no longer teach physics at school". could've been the case of "old man yells at cloud", but i've read my fair share of literature, and the amount of "they no longer.." in the 80s and 70s is overwhelming. makes me think that we're simply living the time when "they no longer.." is catching up with us
22:59 signpost friend of mine's grandfather had an applicable line, that "nature extends a lot of credit, but never forgets to send the bill"
22:59 phf hah
23:01 phf i am, by the way, unconvinced of this death narrative
23:01 phf in fact, despite the pervasive doom and gloom, i think the narrative is wrong
23:02 signpost I'm quite happy, but how do you reconcile that with the decay of teaching?
23:04 signpost for context, I'll be a father before long. I'd like nothing better than for the 2030s to begin a golden age.
23:05 phf i think that we're experiencing future shock. i think progressivism is a death cult, that arose as a psychological defense against the future shock
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23:06 signpost expand future shock? overwhelm at what we can wield/know/etc?
23:06 phf i think a lot of things that are happening are "first" in the new post-future reality
23:07 phf signpost: i'm just talking boring old internet becoming a thing that everyone has in their pocket over a handful of years, within our lifetimes
23:07 phf and the "firsts" are basically new modes of operation (and dysfunction) that were discovering with this new technology
23:08 phf i mean covid, IMHO, was a first case of global mass psychosis mediated by a new form of a reality substrate
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23:09 phf i mean, why is nobody even questioning this aspect? the millions of compounding effects that pervasive internet has on humanity as a whole?
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23:09 signpost I agree entirely.
23:10 signpost this was the reason for the dumbphone, since the readiness-to-hand of the other one made ignoring it not matter.
23:10 signpost the ignoring it is still an awareness of paths one can take.
23:11 signpost but, this is entirely possible, that this is the new way of being.
23:12 phf well, yeah, the technological avantguard (time to start sounding like bOINGbOING magazine) has been aware of this situation for years, yeah? all kinds of creative solutions to "tame" internet
23:12 signpost by talking here, and a few other places, and opting out of the others, I'm not abstaining from a distributed technological hivemind, just selecting which position on the graph.
23:12 signpost sure, hence the "hay I know a word in sanskrit" branding of the phone
23:13 signpost elsewhere I've said that identification-with-the-graph is the self that comes after being a soul-before-god
23:14 phf signpost: would like to point out that i grok why you bought that phone, while if this was a reddit conversation or whatever, i'd just be raging for people performing a superficially similar action :>
23:14 signpost yeah, I noticed distress in my head and removed it.
23:14 phf *at people for performing
23:15 signpost not everything is a signal of the populist variety.
23:15 signpost (is still certainly a signal)
23:19 phf so going back upstack, i'm all for whatever means of stabilizing this situation, particularly considering that it has very concrete and real implications beyond "everyone's retweeting kardashian's butt"
23:21 phf like if you think about it, most of the countries are run by basic bitches at best, lots of old people, they've gotten "on facebook" couple of years ago, and "omg! there's putin!"
23:22 signpost yep, miracles of medicine clinging on everywhere you look.
23:23 * signpost has been working on restating the problem as seen.
23:23 phf why would an 80 year old senator be any more immune to this? i'd say even more susceptible. so the uncle that just keeps retweeting worst fearmongering propaganda is now making gov decisions
23:23 signpost why's he afraid?
23:24 * signpost has this relative, for sure, Q in the messiah-slot.
23:24 phf in the void! because it's a lolcat meme
23:24 signpost I mean what makes him so terrified; the "rattle" as asciilifeform puts it is there for me to.
23:24 signpost *too
23:24 signpost I'm not calling myself special here. It's not a trivial question.
23:25 phf i don't think it's existential
23:25 signpost yeah, we differ there, but I'd like to know what you think.
23:25 phf i don't think it's anything, i think it's literally an equivalent of a movie jump scare
23:27 signpost what is the thing that makes one susceptible to the porn and the next not?
23:27 phf you could tenuously connect it to some higher functioning reflection, in a sense that both rely on the same primal biological mechanism, but i think that the memetic jump scares are totally disconnected
23:27 signpost you don't think that one's fragility factors into the urge to distract?
23:28 phf signpost: at this scale? imho it's purelly statistically biological. maybe some outliers that have willpower, but then hard to say where will where biology to be a meaningless imho exploration
23:29 phf why is "autism" only one form of mental condition, dark triad has all kinds of implications, there's more mental states than "narcissism"
23:30 phf "the world's on fire, i'm just out riding horses" might not be a pose, i might not actually really grok at all that the world's on fire :>
23:31 signpost haha
23:31 phf because the world is actually not on fire, and a non trivial number of citizens are having a psychotic break
23:31 phf ^ "i looked into this fellow citizens, i've concluded that the train is fine"
23:31 phf etc.
23:31 signpost well, there's a long list of things we believe we need to keep functioning to maintain processes that keep the food flowing, aside other things.
23:32 signpost some of these are looking pretty rough, but you can fill in the list.
23:32 phf what if you prep, but the collapse never comes?
23:32 signpost I'm not that guy either, worried about the apocalypse.
23:32 signpost might well be that we adapt astonishingly rapidly when things break, and only when.
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23:32 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096369 << IMHO the moment you start making decisions for yourself you are a man. All social preconditions are unnecessary, manhood is derived from the uptake of personal accountability. This holistic approach to defining a man won't get you very far, if it is your decision to research men of past and imitate them, the
23:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 18:17:59 phf: well, we're all over the place now. as far as "what makes a whole man", there's more to say: there's plenty of available blueprints to go by, even maybe a mixture of, but the problem is in my mind that the solipsists refuse to choose any, staying instead in this detached "all things are equal, and all things are equally stupid" kind of state
23:32 crtdaydreams action is the defining factor. (apologies if I misinterpret)
23:34 signpost phf: it's evidently *not* a problem for everyone to author a model of oneself which is intelligible.
23:35 signpost in that, sure, common man have rectangle, push thing, see butt.
23:36 phf signpost: also re collapse, ancestors lived through wwii and the great depression, why would be different? it'll suck if collapse happens just as i'm old and infirm, but on the other hand will see world burn, die shortly, win :>
23:36 signpost way upstack, the question I have about the old way of culture, is whether the egotism it produced is useful.
23:36 signpost useful as a model of reality. not whether it is sinful or virtuous.
23:37 signpost the head full of culture is a local cache of things produced by *other men*.
23:38 phf signpost: i don't think egotism was inherent, it's a later addition, because of the reason you alluded to: monkeys living in the houses built by men are prideful because better than monkeys living without
23:38 signpost isn't clear this is a necessary because.
23:39 phf why not?
23:39 signpost because what the hell of "me" was novel data produced at this node, and I don't mean just me.
23:40 phf i'm afraid to continue with this line because i know it'll sound like aristocracy apologism. asci will pounce with his "the sound of breaking baguette"
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23:40 signpost maybe it veers into the religious, and that would tie in with our discussion re: that being a necessary ingredient.
23:40 signpost aaa you already said by implication.
23:40 signpost get him.
23:41 signpost only point is that the greatest man ever to live was this connected thing, not unlike in kind from your technological blob-monster.
23:41 signpost just latter is astonishing scale.
23:41 signpost maybe later we get good at contending with it.
23:42 * signpost imagines there were a few kings along the way that had this expansive notion of self, embodying not just their entire country, but the whole line preceding, and etc
23:43 mats you are a king
23:43 * signpost stands butt naked in his room, arms out, waiting for his damned clothes.
23:45 phf signpost: but also like where egotism? should we maybe define it? i took it to mean a reference to "classical music appreciators", which is one thing, but extending it to the point of "I, the Wrath of God will marry my own daughter and with her I will found the purest dynasty the earth has ever seen." takes it in a different direction
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23:46 signpost what's a man? this is the question the authorial voice answers in one's own head if it speaks at all, right?
23:47 phf because the later egotism is archetypal, part of human nature, see shakespear
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23:47 signpost I'm not proposing you decide you're something else; I'm saying it's already the case.
23:47 signpost you're this composite being comprised mostly of packets sent your way from elsewhere.
23:48 phf signpost: but that's a property of socialization and immitation. to question this goes way beyond the scope
23:49 phf some packets sent, some packets collected, building up on what was sent. if i was born german would read goethe in native language
23:50 phf is the contention that we can really become whole without external input? the noble savage?
23:52 signpost nah, this isn't a sketch of a fallen state. it's a sketch of *the* state, was true wherever humans spoke and wrote.
23:52 signpost distributed meat computer running language.
23:52 signpost at least the part which contains your "I"
23:52 signpost doesn't mean now dispense with it; how would you even?
23:53 phf signpost: ironically it's been tried, explicitly, back when you could run such experiments on children and wives :D
23:54 phf was a big thing with rousseau's noble savage was not just a look outward, it was also a blueprint for various questionable experiments
23:54 signpost mhm.
23:55 phf eh that sentence was of two parts, "was a big thing in the late 18th century", then "rousseau.."
23:55 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096485 << by that extension would modern egotism be memetic?
23:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-04-16 19:45:52 phf: because the later egotism is archetypal, part of human nature, see shakespear
23:55 signpost or take any enlightened messiah's hilarious personal life, like alan watts.
23:55 signpost "we're all us, baby, so of course I can fuck your wives"
23:55 phf signpost: well, that has a blueprint, buddha allegedly shed his conditioning :>
23:56 phf tried to flush own firmware, failed at it, in the process of replacing bits of firmware with "better" bits :D
23:56 * phf ^
23:57 signpost problem's always where to stand from where to know what to EVAL
23:57 signpost the literary process you described isn't a bad algo for that at all.
23:58 * signpost skeptical entirely of "flush own firmware" ftr, not for lack of having tried.
23:59 signpost can shut off the internal monologue any time one likes. I'm not convinced this is a state in which to remain.
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