#asciilifeform | 2022-06-30

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asciilifeform - 509d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-06-29 | 2022-07-01 → ↓

01:45	*	d4 wonders if signify(1) could replace PGP signatures in V-tron
		~ 39 minutes ~
02:24	asciilifeform	d4: it's certainly physically possible: similarly to how is physically possible for a scalpel to be replaced with a shard of a beer bottle you'd broken against the head of hiv-infected hobo. but that prolly wasn't what d4 intended to ask
02:25	asciilifeform	subj, for the innocent.
02:27	asciilifeform	'Elliptic curve cryptography requires a much smaller key size than RSA or DSA for equivalent security.' << ancient nsa agitprop repeated endlessly all over the net, without ever the slightest scrap of proof.
02:29	asciilifeform	( not even to mention the obscene complexity of implementation of eccism, making a meaningful audit of given proggy just about impossible )
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02:32	asciilifeform	so yes, d4 , 'could replace pgp signatures in vtron' if you want. but ftr is suicidally stupid idea. asciilifeform is powerless to prevent some idjit, somewhere, bent on doing it, from doing it. but will not knowingly touch anything said idjit has touched, if can avoid it, nor encourage others to do so, nor l1 with anyone he finds doing either of the above, etc.
02:36	asciilifeform	... and before anyone chimes in re 'but bitcoin' -- it aint particularly sensitive to a ecdsa pill, and thereby tells us ~0 about it even from strictly empirical pov.
02:36	dulapbot	Logged on 2021-07-24 14:38:45 asciilifeform: whaack: it's a 'belt & suspenders' in case of algo break, nominally. and saves a little space.
		~ 8 hours 36 minutes ~
11:12	crtdaydreams	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-29#1109590 << can attest, incl. but not limited to cars; ~everything~ is now chineseum plastic blend with a bit of aluminimum foil over the top
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11:12	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-29 10:05:23 shinohai: hates new vehicles .....
		~ 3 hours 18 minutes ~
14:31	asciilifeform	meanwhile, in koch lulz.
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		~ 20 minutes ~
14:52	phf	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109617 << kind of been the case for decades, you have commuter car ("m1 mac") and real cars ("x60")
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14:52	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 07:09:56 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-29#1109590 << can attest, incl. but not limited to cars; ~everything~ is now chineseum plastic blend with a bit of aluminimum foil over the top
		~ 18 minutes ~
15:10	shinohai	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109619 << https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/6395399?v=4 "She/Her"
15:10	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 10:28:53 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in koch lulz.
15:15	asciilifeform	shinohai: whossat?
15:15	asciilifeform	( koch?!! )
15:16	shinohai	Noh the person that authored the m/l piece.
15:17	asciilifeform	a
		~ 26 minutes ~
15:43	asciilifeform	shinohai: that circus lulzily reminiscent of shakespear's orig theatre, where can bet 'no actual chix harmed in the making of this production' and never lose, lol
15:45	shinohai	"I can't believe it's not butter!"
15:46	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109620 << well, cars (lappies) and 'belaz' (proper comp, w/ opterons etc)
15:46	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 10:49:39 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109617 << kind of been the case for decades, you have commuter car ("m1 mac") and real cars ("x60")
15:56	asciilifeform	shinohai: afaik still an interesting enigma, from where came the over9000 bogochix. ( and afaik the most popular theories, e.g. envir pollution, dun hold water -- per the shrinks, most of'em start out as entirely normal-looking d00dz, with no 'warning' )
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15:56	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-05-18 11:19:50 signpost: highly suspicious of microplastics here.
16:01	shinohai	I koff it all up to being a "shared psychotic disorder" where if one banquets at the reddit house of narcissism long enough, you become this.
16:01	asciilifeform	sure but wai ~this~
16:03	shinohai	Sure fire way to get attention, since you throw on some striped socks and start programming in Rust and suddenly "over 9000!" folks come to tell you how stunning and brave you are.
16:03	asciilifeform	shinohai: this wouldn't explain the self-mutilations tho
16:03	asciilifeform	if 'socks' suffice
16:04	asciilifeform	evidently sumthing moar interesting going on in there
16:04	mats	the kids will tell you this is normal
16:04	mats	and how it would be if societies weren't oppressing them for millennia
16:04	mats	but there's no data so its unknowable
16:04	shinohai	I'd imagine being biological male then suddenly pumping body full of estrogen is gonna make you have delusional thoughts - like sawing off tweeter.
16:05	asciilifeform	afaik most of'em stop short of the saw
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16:06	mats	i think the explanation is simpler -- the narratives that societies has on offer today, like nationalism, are no longer sufficient
16:06	shinohai	Some yes, they go step further and become absolutely convinced that their penis is just a giant external clit.
16:06	mats	and people are now in search for deeper meaning and greater deviance
16:09	mats	societies have on offer*
16:11	shinohai	It does seem to have a nationalistic flavour as asciilifeform pointed out on pest.
16:11	bitbot	(pest) 2022-06-05 asciilifeform: 'see who objects' 'will have problems'
16:16	mats	people still need jesus
16:17	mats	but that's not cool anymore
16:24	shinohai	Well they tried to make God in their image with "Jesus Queen of Heaven" but don't think that played out too well.
16:27	signpost	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-01#1060553 << teachings of jesus led straight to today.
16:27	dulapbot	Logged on 2021-10-01 14:11:56 signpost: gregory5: inevitable result of the personal relationship with jesus christ implicit in his own teachings.
16:27	asciilifeform	^
16:27	phf	"greek mythology led straight to the fall of rome"
16:27	signpost	more specifically
16:27	dulapbot	Logged on 2021-12-01 13:19:47 signpost: this is the truly heretical thing about american protestantism, that it grants peasants the sovereign voice so they can masturbate with it.
16:28	signpost	phf: I put a finer point on it than that.
16:28	signpost	stable modern psychological operating system does not exist at scale.
16:29	signpost	phf: I don't recall; do you practice (or at least have affinity for) orthodox christianity?
16:31	phf	signpost: but i've already i believe communicated why i don't agree with that finer point. specifically i just don't believe in eternal solutions, i think specifically that any system for controlling entropy will have upper bound on its operation, and it ought to be judged from the perspective of how well it did and how long it lasted. it sucks that we were born on the tail end of effective christianity though, perhaps get to enjoy
16:31	phf	watching the sunset
16:33	signpost	ah yeah, then we see the same thing. I'm just bitchier about it being sunset.
16:33	*	signpost grants it had a great run.
16:41	signpost	alright, digesting the thought further, do you believe a culture could incorporate cyclicality into itself?
16:41	*	signpost often wonders if he's further back the cultural tree than his ex-sov friends. "hey guys, considered permanent revolution?!"
16:44	phf	signpost: i don't think that's possible without some serious levels of conspiracy, and the conspirators then have to not be human :p
16:44	phf	i think you can have layers, and by structuring it is a kind of
16:44	phf	err
16:45	phf	i think you can have layers, and by making each layer tighter, you'll delay the failure, but when the final, top layer goes, your whole thing will unravel
16:50	signpost	yeah, and a major challenge is humans will compete with each other internally on their layer (necessarily, not saying this is avoidable), which hampers their ability to coherently impose order on the layer below.
16:53	signpost	probably why having a monogod at the top of the hierarchy isn't a bad idea, depending on what's ascribed to it, and by what process.
16:54	signpost	I can even see the usefulness of a jesus, because eventually the distance between the superlative and the squishy human becomes unmanageable, "all fall short".
16:54	signpost	but I'm suspicious of the failure modes of "we all have god within us which can redeem"
16:55	signpost	anyway, when I discuss this, it's in the spirit of what to build, not merely bitching, but that's about as arrogant as expecting to stop the world and build a sane computer.
16:56	signpost	with no disrespect to the patron saint of lost causes.
16:56	phf	going back to your question of "are you affiliated with orthodox church". i've given this some thought independently and recently arrived to a point, that i don't have faith, but i'm a man of the book. i suspect there was plenty of men of the book who lacked faith, even at peak chrsitendom, mostly kept it to themselves, or wrote cool edgy shit
16:59	phf	problem the way i see it, is that i accept the principles of the book inherently, maybe because i was civilized by it, or maybe because there's something inherently sensible about it (i'll maybe return to this point), but various others don't. we used to scare them with fire and brimstone, or with the glimpses of the transcendental, or with the stories of divine love, or with the holy inquisition, but shit don't work anymore
17:04	signpost	that it doesn't work on them, and perhaps even worked on us to spare them, is what separated me from it.
17:04	signpost	whether this is a fair judgment is still wide open in my own book.
17:06	asciilifeform	'god -- dead'(tm)(r), rip
17:08	asciilifeform	re 'men of the book' -- a broad enuff flag that it covers just about anyffin you like
17:13	phf	cool analysis bro
17:13	asciilifeform	lol
17:17	phf	signpost: i think maybe we understimate to what extent we were living in the world that was constructed and maintained through shared adherence to the book, with faith or without. when you say "separated" i assume you mean you don't go to church or sundays or whatever, but why e.g. you don't steal.
17:20	*	asciilifeform not convinced that e.g. 'not steal' anywhere at any point had anyffin detectable to do with scriptures
17:21	signpost	100% agree we are living in that world, with law and philosophy emanating from it.
17:21	signpost	asciilifeform: I consider the book the "logs" which survived by way of holders of the book having survived.
17:21	signpost	holders of other books fell to holders of these books.
17:22	asciilifeform	signpost: heavily edited 'logs'
17:22	billymg	http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109632 << i believe mp's theory was that the phenomenon is the result of mass self-imposed "solution" to the surplus male problem
17:22	bitbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 15:56:49 asciilifeform: shinohai: afaik still an interesting enigma, from where came the over9000 bogochix. ( and afaik the most popular theories, e.g. envir pollution, dun hold water -- per the shrinks, most of'em start out as entirely normal-looking d00dz, with no 'warning' )
17:22	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-05-18 11:19:50 signpost: highly suspicious of microplastics here.
17:23	phf	asciilifeform: i think it's because you have it inside out, scripture as a kind of "jebus says" that christcucks do, rather than lose collection of laws and principles, that are there as a prescription and warning
17:23	signpost	or compressed because historical accuracy does not matter.
17:23	shinohai	Code of Hammurabi on "don't steal" far more imposing than that of "scripture" lol.
17:23	billymg	becoming a man has always been hard, becoming one in modern society where ~all paths lead to dead end is even harder. so with the choices 'try to become man and probably fail' and 'become woman and get updoots on reddit' -- choice for some is easy
17:23	bitbot	Logged on 2022-06-09 21:52:10 asciilifeform: is moar or less inevitable reaction for some to 'dead end'
17:23	asciilifeform	^
17:23	asciilifeform	( re hammurabi )
17:23	signpost	nobody's doing a hammurabi vs bible thing.
17:24	signpost	they're not separate
17:24	asciilifeform	billymg: the 'cosmetic' pov dun explain wai mutilations tho. if 'cosplay' suffices for 'upvote'
17:24	phf	shinohai: ah yes, the famous babylonian jet engines
17:24	shinohai	lol
17:25	billymg	asciilifeform: like you said though, most stop short of the mutilations
17:25	bitbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 16:05:14 asciilifeform: afaik most of'em stop short of the saw
17:25	signpost	phf: at least what's at question in my own gourd is whether the thing can be reinstantiated once broken.
17:25	signpost	in my selfsame gourd.
17:25	*	signpost thinks not.
17:25	asciilifeform	billymg: afaik they normally start & stop with steroids
17:25	billymg	it's not just for the upvotes, it's for "getting out of the responsibility of attempting to become man"
17:25	*	shinohai fires up his Aeolipile and cruises over the hanging gardens .....
17:26	signpost	what's hard to understand about auto-castration?
17:26	signpost	"this thing is the source of all my problems"
17:26	signpost	guess what, it is! :D
17:26	asciilifeform	signpost: the interesting bit is that it dun quite work
17:31	*	asciilifeform recalls sumbody linking to a 'trans' sufferer's blog where described supposedly-typical 'oscillation' where eats estrogens, loses the drive to do just about anyffin, then stops, then 'goto 10'
17:31	asciilifeform	humans evidently dun come with cleanly unscrewable components
17:33	asciilifeform	not so much record of eunuchs who achieved sumthing interesting. the only exception asciilifeform can think of immediately is zheng he, but iirc was chopped in ripe adulthood
17:34	mats	TIL
17:35	asciilifeform	lol
17:35	*	mats recalls Game of Thrones episode where guy shoves bronze straw into his groin for #1
17:36	asciilifeform	mats: this kinda 'prosthesis' common well into 20th c (largely among syphilitics)
17:38	shinohai	Why does dribbling mercury through a bronze straw into dick sound like something verisimilitude would do "because the Romans might have done it that way" ?
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17:38	asciilifeform	shinohai: sounds moar gabe laddel imho
17:39	asciilifeform	'over9000 psychostim boost, all the thiel house folx are doin' it' etc
17:39	mats	i have to admit that meth does seem kind of cool
17:40	asciilifeform	mats: all kindsa things cool until the meatware starts failing checksum
17:40	shinohai	Snort meth, write bluetooth controller in lisp that lets you vibrate a sounding rod.
17:41	asciilifeform	see also
17:41	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-03-17 15:14:46 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: doin' dope 'correctly' is as much a skill as e.g. running a table saw or flying a 'cessna'
17:41	asciilifeform	( and elsewhere )
17:41	dulapbot	Logged on 2021-08-08 23:52:04 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050800 << performance dope aficionados -- unless ~uncommonly~ disciplined -- get nailed by tolerance buildup.
17:41	phf	signpost: but what do we mean by broken though. presently still living in the society of the book. doomsday scenarious are still mostly larp, electric works, so does bulk of supply chain, computers being made, can by fresh food, money works, etc. etc. etc. i'm not saying things are good, but consider the totatl failure state.
17:43	mats	the coolest thing about meth is the friends you make along the way
17:44	asciilifeform	'collapse will not be announced for erryone on bbc, it happens for you when it happens to you'(tm)(r)(orlov)
17:44	shinohai	mats: prolly those same friends that suddenly appeared after gl ingested his biggest line yet and told him "do a backflip off the roof, faggot!". xD
17:45	phf	asciilifeform: ennui is a tired joke
17:46	asciilifeform	phf: ennui is as lethal as vx, turns out. ( visit e.g. 'middle america'(tm) )
17:47	asciilifeform	for some joak; the others aint laffin
17:48	phf	why would i go to middle america, when i can also go to any large city? if nothing else "don't want to get out of bed" is a more honest reaction than dance macabre (but i'm not claiming that it's a superior reaction of course)
17:48	signpost	phf: broken in the sense that the number of minds capable of sense-making seems to be decreasing, and the difficulty of those finding others increasing.
17:48	*	asciilifeform not visited erry reich shithole, but over here fresh food up 2.5x
17:48	asciilifeform	the supply chain 'canaries' aint looking too healthy either
17:50	signpost	and yes, if ^ continues I don't expect my neighborhood to pull together and make stone soup. I expect it to collapse.
17:50	*	asciilifeform personally knows several folx who 'not want outta bed'(tm)
17:50	phf	asciilifeform: well, you skipped "the wild 90s", assume perhaps that "bottom" is near ;)
17:51	signpost	but I live in a decadent "tech" hub. my trip to NC was a nice break.
17:51	asciilifeform	phf: personally skipped. relatives in e.g. ukristan not skipped ('eternal '90s') and gave pretty good picture.
17:52	asciilifeform	phf: good % of amerireich already 'in '90s' tho, was asciilifeform's observation
17:53	phf	anyway, i'm not trying to convince anyone to turn to christ, i had an insight a week or so ago, that perhaps the faith and the book are two separate things
17:53	asciilifeform	at least two
17:53	signpost	christ still stands there in my mind, or I wouldn't have so much to say about it.
17:54	phf	from this perspective i find /public atheist position/ (of which i'm one, that is i lack faith) to be corny af, and also a decade or a dozen behind what's going on
17:55	*	asciilifeform wonders what kinda atheisms dar al islam will decay into
17:55	phf	it's kind of like john cleese making fun of british establishment in the '70s, respectable and humorous and generally a great gas, but john cleese in mid 2000s is a different thing altogether
17:57	asciilifeform	afaik american 'public atheisms' of 2000s were largely a reaction to perceived resurgence of 'fundamentalist' protestantisms , which had since shot its load
17:58	phf	asciilifeform: when you have a witch hunt, you suddently find a lot of witches.
17:59	phf	i think 2000s public atheism is a result of social dynamics: collapse of industry in the late 80s, subsequent outsourcing in the 90s means that suburban and rural areas lost opportunity, lots of kids moving out of their chrstian parents's homes, going to university, discovering hitchens and radiohead, etc.
18:01	phf	every single dawkins army kid that i knew was from some variation of pennsyltucky, with practicing christian parents, goign "fuck you, dad"
18:01	asciilifeform	^ matches asciilifeform's observations in meatwot
18:02	asciilifeform	many of these nao praying to 'fuckingluvvscience'(tm) etc
18:02	*	signpost was more of an "I don't know man, I took a looot of acid, and I saw plenty, but not that guy."
18:03	asciilifeform	'went pretty far into sky, didn't see him'(tm)(r)(gagarin, apocryphally)
18:05	signpost	phf: but yes, there's sense of betrayal that the protestant work ethic got their parents a diminished quality of life, and them further still.
18:06	asciilifeform	^
18:06	phf	"jesus promised my a mansion and a high paying job, i guess i'd rather cut off my dick instead"
18:08	asciilifeform	^ was 2gen ago
18:09	asciilifeform	nao is 'they promised that if i get into uni, will have at least own flat, but in reality not even own room'
18:10	signpost	makes me wonder if it's a primate thing to offer up the butt when you're starving. have to imagine it is.
18:10	signpost	or hell, chimps castrate each other.
18:11	signpost	maybe this is them saving you the trouble
18:11	asciilifeform	return: welcome to #a
18:12	return	ty
18:12	asciilifeform	return: do we know one another ?
18:12	return	I don't believe so
18:13	asciilifeform	return: who are you, and what brings you to #a ?
18:13	phf	signpost: jesus is the name of the whip, that pacifies the hurd, but there are not men left to wield it :> i'm amused that when you start thinking about these things in earnest the kind of phrases that come out are obvious and recognizable
18:13	signpost	hm, like which?
18:15	return	asciilifeform: I've discovered loper-os.org recently and found this place through there
18:15	phf	like the one about the whip :D i just composed it, but it feels like something that would've been said at some point, involving cruel patriarchs and battered women
18:17	signpost	ah reparsed correctly.
18:17	signpost	and ftr jesus whipping the scum out of the temple's always been my favorite jesus.
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18:17	asciilifeform	return: do check out the logs, if somehow haven't yet
18:17	return	right
18:19	signpost	hello return. want to give yourself an introduction?
18:20	return	hello signpost. I don't want to come out as rude, but in fact no, I don't want to
18:21	signpost	lol, ok bud.
18:26	asciilifeform	seems strange to bother to delurk but then say ~0, lol
18:27	asciilifeform	normally folx have some kinda opener.
18:27	phf	many "when boys are coy" threads
18:27	*	asciilifeform recalls brief episode where somebody's deepest seekrit was that he was in fact nigerian, and terrified that anyone might find out
18:28	asciilifeform	( subj )
18:28	dulapbot	Logged on 2020-02-12 23:18:09 curiousd0g: it's nigeria
18:30	signpost	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-12#1006379 << looool
18:30	dulapbot	Logged on 2020-02-12 23:18:28 curiousd0g: and n-word pass given, feel free to use it any time
18:30	signpost	what a nice guy.
18:30	shinohai	I remember that guy, I DM'd him to see if he knew any princes that needed help cashing a check to get their $$$ out of Afrika. :(
18:33	asciilifeform	lurking aint a sin, in asciilifeform's book, it beats the shit outta talking when 0 to say imho
18:33	signpost	sure, I was just being hospitable to a guest. it's what's done! (see above)
18:33	*	asciilifeform nods
18:34	phf	lurking is anti-american, it's what bolsheviks do
18:35	asciilifeform	oblig
18:35	signpost	the funny thing about this anxiety-ridden inability to engage in traditional protocol is the thing's there to obviate not knowing what you may do in an unfamiliar setting.
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18:36	signpost	welcome to my house, can I get you a drink? here are things you may want to use while here, please come sit, etc
18:38	asciilifeform	signpost: moar typically sufferers of anonyonanism rather than anyffin else, historically
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18:38	dulapbot	Logged on 2021-11-08 17:30:55 asciilifeform: all anonymity does is to destroy the very possibility of human relations.
18:38	asciilifeform	some -- curable
18:46	verisimilitude	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109727 This is something barbarians would do.
18:46	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 13:35:30 shinohai: Why does dribbling mercury through a bronze straw into dick sound like something verisimilitude would do "because the Romans might have done it that way" ?
18:46	asciilifeform	verisimilitude: a bit hightech for barbarians neh
18:47	verisimilitude	Look at the fancy genital mutilation machines the barbarians use nowadays.
18:47	signpost	still entertains the hell out of me that "barbar" is an imitation of the language of the savages.
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18:47	phf	roman empire was at the forefront of trans research until christian church got involved!
18:47	asciilifeform	at any rate 'bronze straw' was for when you couldn't otherwise piss on acct of having blob of scar tissue where the pisser oughta be
18:48	verisimilitude	So, this isn't the return of return, but the turn of return.
18:48	asciilifeform	returned 0 lol
18:50	verisimilitude	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109807 I don't recall having this problem, and I'm more inundated with it than anyone else here. Using anonymous forums doesn't require adopting the social protocol.
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18:50	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 14:33:02 signpost: the funny thing about this anxiety-ridden inability to engage in traditional protocol is the thing's there to obviate not knowing what you may do in an unfamiliar setting.
18:50	verisimilitude	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109809 Don't human relations are inherently valuable.
18:50	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 14:36:16 asciilifeform: signpost: moar typically sufferers of anonyonanism rather than anyffin else, historically
18:50	verisimilitude	Don't assume human relations are inherently valuable, to correct.
18:51	signpost	you are no authority on healthy human interaction.
18:51	verisimilitude	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109816 This is neat; I was unaware of this.
18:51	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 14:45:17 signpost: still entertains the hell out of me that "barbar" is an imitation of the language of the savages.
18:56	signpost	verisimilitude: do you not see irony in dismissing the value of human relationship to others?
18:57	signpost	you've a pile of immune reactions to being surrounded by the worthless, but that pile isn't a viable whole.
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18:57	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109821 << even public shitter req'd 'adopting social protocol' ( or will shortly come to resemble the one in timis )
18:57	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 14:47:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109807 I don't recall having this problem, and I'm more inundated with it than anyone else here. Using anonymous forums doesn't require adopting the social protocol.
18:57	verisimilitude	I didn't find it to be ironic, no.
18:58	verisimilitude	I'll explain.
18:59	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109830 << fella at considerable risk, aha, of ending up 'hole without the doughnut'
18:59	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 14:54:34 signpost: you've a pile of immune reactions to being surrounded by the worthless, but that pile isn't a viable whole.
18:59	verisimilitude	I did adopt some social protocols at one point, but realized they'd led me to act afool. So, I vowed to no longer allow the medium to influence my such messages. Notice I'm the only one here who always uses proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, and complete sentences.
19:00	verisimilitude	I won't be led to act afool again.
19:00	signpost	huh? I'm referring to a behavioral protocol.
19:00	*	asciilifeform not chargin' folx per byte, verisimilitude free to as verbose as he likes
19:01	verisimilitude	As am I.
19:02	verisimilitude	The point is I'll act consistently across mediums, rather than bend to fit them.
19:02	verisimilitude	I don't act like the typical anonymous idiot on anonymous forums, either.
19:02	signpost	your narcissism prevents your grokking my point.
19:06	signpost	anonymous forums are popular because the participants are cowards, and fear that were they to identify themselves whatever tower of chairs supporting their infantile identity would collapse at the first criticism.
19:07	phf	old man yells at clowns
19:08	signpost	above, I said that what is ironic about avoiding say, introducing oneself, is it's trivial to glide through such a thing with a handshake and a few cached sentences.
19:08	verisimilitude	No, I disagree.
19:08	signpost	and most functionining adults do.
19:08	signpost	*functioning... lag
19:08	signpost	phf: even this, the religious impulse, man!
		↖
19:09	verisimilitude	See return, just give signpost a firm handshake and ask him what beer he likes.
19:09	verisimilitude	Maybe talk about football.
19:10	signpost	hobbled as you are, can't even construct an amusing caricature of me.
		↖
19:10	signpost	you'd have to have more than one person in your model of the world.
19:10	verisimilitude	How could I model myself without modelling others?
19:12	signpost	see, this is the same as phf and I discussing that perhaps it doesn't matter that god's not real, because what's served as alternative is death.
19:13	signpost	structured and orderly protocol between human beings might matter more to there being civilization than whether I care that he's a plumber with a rubber nipple collection.
19:13	signpost	"say, would you care to put something of yourself in my database of known humans?"
19:14	verisimilitude	I neither worship some god nor have a fixation on death.
19:15	phf	signpost: have you ever had constructive conversations with verisimilitude, why is he still not on your ignore? that's not a rhetorical question, i'm just curious
19:15	verisimilitude	I'm not that insufferable, am I?
19:17	asciilifeform	phf: dunno how much conversation would remain if errybody killfiled his 'insufferables' lol
19:17	signpost	yeah, I don't mind it.
19:18	verisimilitude	We number too few for ignoring anyone to seem reasonable, to me.
19:20	verisimilitude	If I be the most insufferable, then I'll improve myself, to be but the second-most-insufferable.
19:21	signpost	phf: ever employ any kids born >=2000?
19:21	signpost	not sure on which side verisimilitude falls, but it's a continuum and gets worse the younger they are.
19:22	phf	asciilifeform: i dunno, i'm just not keen on pure flame anymore, i want to see myself or my counterparty grow, or come to a shared new understanding, or even just riff. at times i think you or signpost are the worst human beings ever!!1, but that's usually in the heat of the dabate, which is often resolved, and there's some better understanding of the other's position, and a growing respect. i've not had an interaction like that with
19:22	phf	verisimilitude, that's all
19:23	signpost	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-16#1096411 << this thing being ever-more of their developmental experience.
19:23	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-04-16 19:04:39 phf: i think that we're experiencing future shock. i think progressivism is a death cult, that arose as a psychological defense against the future shock
19:23	signpost	w/e will be civilization, if anything will be, will incorporate rather than reverse this, imho.
19:23	asciilifeform	phf: fwiw had at least half dozen 'constructives' w/ d00d, re apl etc
19:23	*	signpost not particularly "flaming" mad, even when leveling a harsh critique.
19:24	phf	asciilifeform: you mean like the last conversation on apl where verisimilitude literally just restated my original point?
19:24	verisimilitude	I enjoyed our recent discussion about Latin, phf.
19:24	signpost	one oughta hear the vulcan-esque critiques that are quietly stated in my household in either direction.
19:24	asciilifeform	phf: nah, the 1s where re 'hieroglyphs'
19:24	signpost	if you read the transcript, would hear screaming.
19:25	asciilifeform	sad but troo, the population of folx even vaguely interested in abstract thinking is vehehery thin. (and most of'em you aint aboutta find 'ionized' on the net, they're happily in some meatwot and won't be caught dead in #a)
19:26	signpost	phf: with respect, aren't you approx a decade my senior?
19:26	asciilifeform	the 'fermi paradox', if you like, of the modern-day net
		↖
19:26	signpost	getting kid to coherently repeat what you were trying to teach him is called victory, lol
19:26	phf	signpost: i don't think so, we're about the same age, maybe like 5 years apart at most? :} just cause i seem old!
19:26	signpost	a ok, just because you have an affinity for 80s and 90s things
19:27	phf	signpost: it's a byproduct of ru, and the way culture was brought into the country in the 90s, after the collapse. first half of 90s was basically 80s
19:28	phf	i'm pretty sure mp was the oldest of us
19:29	asciilifeform	iirc at least 1 ( mocky ? ) was in 60s
19:29	signpost	verisimilitude: and I don't expect you to say, but you behave like you're in your late 20s.
		↖
19:29	phf	anyway, i employe people >2000, but one always has the nuclear option in that kind of relationship. can fire, or threaten to fire, in fact i fired more >2000 than <2000.
19:31	verisimilitude	That's amusing to me; I've been accused of being in my twenties all the way to my forties, by others.
19:31	asciilifeform	'young at heart'
19:31	signpost	bwahaha, you're >40?!
19:32	phf	#a is actually one of my only outlets for polemics left, because sometimes one wants to just run their mouth. irl or online i've cut out pretty much all opportunity for "he said, she said"
19:32	verisimilitude	Do the young ones smell different when they burn, phf?
19:32	asciilifeform	'главное, ребята, сердцем не стареть!'(tm)
19:32	signpost	send help, my world just broke.
19:32	verisimilitude	I won't tell, signpost.
19:32	verisimilitude	We'll see soon enough, when we meet in-person.
19:32	signpost	phf: some of my best ones had a lot of fungus on the outside, took a lot of power washing and they became my favorites.
19:33	verisimilitude	I was going to keep our planned meeting a secret, but decided the others deserve to know what happened if I were to go missing afterwards.
19:34	signpost	as I recall you proposed meeting, and I declined, but maybe someday.
19:34	verisimilitude	Yes, someday.
19:34	verisimilitude	We agreed on someday, recall.
19:37	phf	signpost: did they become your associates, stood by your side at the wedding, one day will help you carry your father's coffin? :) i just no longer see the point in this "power washing", going back to the amish thread, we are all first goo
19:37	phf	err
19:38	phf	we are all first attached to the state, each other second
19:38	signpost	still have some, others lost.
19:38	verisimilitude	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109890 Know I'm much more sufferable discussing programming day-in-day-out; it's not my fault ye wish to discuss so many other topics, like society and whatnot. I can hardly be blamed, really.
19:38	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 15:27:03 signpost: verisimilitude: and I don't expect you to say, but you behave like you're in your late 20s.
19:40	signpost	phf: some of my behavior has more to do with an effort of inward discipline than expectation of outward effect.
19:42	signpost	an ongoing thread with my wife involves whether the mould for ^ is belief in monogod in early development.
19:43	signpost	there's also the belief that we aren't as individual as recently fashionable.
19:44	signpost	can render this biblically too if one likes, that christ tells you love your neighbor because your existence is entangled with his, not because it makes christ happy.
19:44	*	signpost has to acknowledge his own quixotism in this.
19:45	phf	ah these are terms i understand and can argue from: i don't believe your coworkers are your neighbors even at face value, but certainly not in the biblical terms
19:45	phf	that's what i refer to when i mention "the amish"
19:47	mats	my neighbor has these two pugs, one of them is blind and kind of retarded, the other day i watched it waddle from dogshed to water bowl and stop halfway through to pee then lay down in the mess midstream
19:47	mats	thats when i knew my neighbor is a bad person
		~ 16 minutes ~
20:04	signpost	well, it even says love your enemies, not that I say it having been written is sufficient grounds for belief.
20:04	signpost	what I actually believe has more to do with psychedelic experience and a model of being that involves distributed computing as foundation.
20:05	*	phf takes note in small black book
20:05	signpost	"shit, there are a lot of nodes that threaten to hard fork to destruction"
20:06	signpost	haha
20:08	*	phf mutters to self "deus benignus, homo discernit
20:08	verisimilitude	Oh, I've been meaning to write about a related topic, signpost. Distributed and untrusted computation depends upon metadata.
20:08	*	phf closes the little black book and puts the pen away
20:08	verisimilitude	Something such as Erlang is distributed but trusted.
20:09	phf	kind of makes me want to reread name of the rose
		↖
20:10	verisimilitude	How should I ask another machine to sort numbers for me, signpost, when I want to double-check the response?
20:13	signpost	incentive, punishment, and reputation, I'd imagine.
20:13	verisimilitude	No.
20:14	signpost	sorry, you said how should you ask. go ahead.
20:15	verisimilitude	I'd ask it to compute a function such as this, which has characteristics making verification particularly simple, compared to checking the sorted numbers against the questioned numbers.
20:15	verisimilitude	To rephrase, I'd ask it for metadata, not data.
20:16	signpost	how do you prove to yourself that the metadata was correctly derived from the source data, without repeating the computation yourself to derive it?
20:17	signpost	well, there are things that are harder to compute than verify obviously, but you at least have to verify.
20:17	signpost	but I haven't read your article yet.
20:17	verisimilitude	I can check a sorted sequence in linear time, and I can similarly check for repetitions and other invalid indices.
20:17	verisimilitude	Verifying the metadata has better time characteristics than verifying the data.
20:19	phf	divino inquisitori errantum computationum princeps praeceptor don ignatius says "to err is human to compute is divine, for only from divinity can correct computatons stem, and invalid results are sign of malignant influences at play"
20:24	signpost	verisimilitude: what is a concise statement of what problem you're trying to solve?
20:26	verisimilitude	Problem?
20:27	verisimilitude	I'm not trying to solve anything.
20:28	verisimilitude	Boredom is the problem, then.
20:29	signpost	this was the thing that got me talking about gen-z kids, that it was effort to get them to disgorge the head-state that produced w/e verbal output.
		↖
20:30	verisimilitude	Oh, so errant thought is now bad?
20:30	signpost	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-07#1083097
20:30	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-03-07 16:45:45 signpost: "INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER"
20:31	signpost	is all.
20:31	verisimilitude	Okay.
20:33	phf	signpost: you familiar with dark academia meme?
		↖ ↖
20:33	signpost	newp
20:43	phf	signpost: it's an internet fashion, where one borrows from a kind of english turn of the century prep school aesthetic. you know dark panneled libraries, and gothic buildings, and understated prep clothing. books, and reading is obviously at the core of the aesthetic, but purely as a visual thing. you're not expected to actually read (even though you might claim you do)
20:45	phf	if you do a google image search for the term you'll get a pretty good idea for what it is
20:45	signpost	harry potter meets wes anderson meets etc.
20:46	phf	and a product of chan culture, "redpill me on byron bros, is he our guy?"
20:49	phf	so i think that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109947 is basically that, it's not that there's any kind of thought behind it, it's literally just a kind of signaling "redpill me on distributed computation, what books should i add to my giant untouched pdf collection so that i'm into distributed computation?" etc.
		↖
20:49	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 16:26:59 signpost: this was the thing that got me talking about gen-z kids, that it was effort to get them to disgorge the head-state that produced w/e verbal output.
20:51	signpost	I can see it. Heidegger had a mode of being labeled as "das Man", iirc approximately "the them", and discussed being "lost in das Man"
20:51	signpost	Nietzsche said the minds of the last men "blenchen", blink.
20:53	signpost	one wonders whether there's anyone home in these, or whether they do just mimic.
20:54	phf	https://i.pinimg.com/550x/10/61/b8/1061b8ff7e95e1802f03fe3846cbabec.jpg :}
		↖
20:56	signpost	what makes one so sure the precursors to man were all killed off, you know?
20:56	signpost	and what requires that they all know they're there.
20:57	*	signpost isn't decided on whether it's unfixable.
20:57	signpost	certainly there were modes of being into which I was locked at some point, and later I'll say the same about loops I inhabit now.
20:58	verisimilitude	I don't speak or write without thinking beforehand, phf.
20:59	*	signpost now watching waves of conscious culture emerge from accidental constructive inteference, roll across the ocean, and recede in his imagination.
21:13	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109930 << asciilifeform luvvd the hell outta that b00k, reread at least 3x
21:13	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 16:07:11 phf: kind of makes me want to reread name of the rose
21:14	shinohai	Same, 'tis one of the finest books I've ever read.
21:15	*	asciilifeform binged on author's other worx after , but was disappointed
21:16	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109964 << these look like normal human activities, lol. i suppose the lolcat doesn't tell us re it being a cargocult
21:16	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 16:52:15 phf: https://i.pinimg.com/550x/10/61/b8/1061b8ff7e95e1802f03fe3846cbabec.jpg :}
21:17	asciilifeform	http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109959 << there always remains a small chance that 'collector', in a fit of boredom, will actually start to read the collection
21:17	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-30 16:46:22 phf: so i think that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-30#1109947 is basically that, it's not that there's any kind of thought behind it, it's literally just a kind of signaling "redpill me on distributed computation, what books should i add to my giant untouched pdf collection so that i'm into distributed computation?" etc.
21:18	asciilifeform	( likely not so much larger than aboriginal's chance of baking a working plane but whoknows )
21:18	dulapbot	Logged on 2022-06-09 17:49:06 asciilifeform: ( thing is, 'cargo cult' could even be interesting if the tribesmen somehow build ~working~ planes. but unsurprisingly neverhappens , not simply because 'haven't with-what' but because working in broken model entirely )
		~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
22:48	crtdaydreams	phf: I recently accquainted myself with the notion of eternal reccurence throught the parable of the demon; "What if I told you, you will live this life of yours as you have lived it an innumerable number of times."
22:52	signpost	roger penrose recently melted my pleb brain with the question of what happens when there's nothing left in the universe but photons.
		↖
22:52	signpost	there's a pretty terrible "interview" with him and jordan peterson somewhere, not really worth watching except for this.
		↖
22:53	phf	crtdaydreams: we possibly read the same blogs
22:53	phf	logs
22:53	phf	err
22:54	phf	disregard last _two_ messages, it's supposed to be "blogs" even though logs immediately after which was in error might imply a correction. focus follow on terminal.app does a bad thing again..
22:55	signpost	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_FUlo8BF9Y << this might be a better discussion of it.
22:56	crtdaydreams	I feel as if an underlying architecture presides beneath this weighty idea that's worth pursuing. I don't believe Neitzche explores that in 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' beyond a motif. The introduction also reccomends that I read other assorted works more or less chronologically before Zarathustra. Not quite sure whether I forge ahead with a premature reading of Zarathustra and
22:56	crtdaydreams	miss the important ideas, or peruse his other works beforehand.
22:56	signpost	would be mighty entertaining if physicists eventually agree with the ancients on cyclical universe.
22:58	crtdaydreams	signpost: unlikely a collective enlightenment just around the bend anytime soon
22:59	signpost	why do you think?
23:00	crtdaydreams	People from my generation have taken to what I refer to as "The Default Position"
23:01	crtdaydreams	any conversation, or meaningful thought is plugged with "it doesn't matter, the heat death of the universe will get us all in the end anyway, so nothings worth trying la la la la"
23:03	crtdaydreams	this may just be a small, poorly selected sample, but I do believe an undercurrent of futility poisons the minds of many in my generation
23:06	crtdaydreams	the interesting thing is, I somewhat agree with the purported meaningless of understanding
23:07	crtdaydreams	that is not to say the correct approach to living is some combination of nihlism and apathy
23:08	crtdaydreams	*nihilism
23:10	signpost	I'm entirely unsure what causes rapid state changes such as a messiah, "great awakening", or what.
23:10	signpost	so not sure how near or far one is.
23:12	crtdaydreams	perhaps it's directly a result of conscious, directed will
23:14	crtdaydreams	I don't think Jesus (prophet or god) could have brought such profound change to thought without some form of conscious exercise in said change
23:14	signpost	before that, I have to ask what a previous wtf means. what's "meaningless of understanding" and how do you... understand it?
23:15	crtdaydreams	signpost: wrong kind of meaningless, meaning as in philosophical meaning, "understanding is futile and meaningless etc"
23:16	crtdaydreams	I thought contextually it would make sense
23:16	signpost	I think that "etc" is doing a lot of work. do we mean that will precedes knowing, something like that?
23:17	crtdaydreams	perhaps, as in the parable of adam and eve
23:17	crtdaydreams	but that contorts our idea of knowing somewhat
23:18	*	signpost doesn't mean much more than my dick wants to fuck, and my belly wants to eat, and somewhere far further up the tower of chairs do I imagine goals, or the future.
23:19	crtdaydreams	maslows heirachy
23:20	signpost	anyway upstack, your view is your generation's full of suicidals then?
23:20	signpost	sorta stuck on this side of the fear of the act?
23:21	signpost	it's a strange thing; for someone to value anything they have to also value the lights being on to value it.
23:22	signpost	this gets easier to explain if the human hivemind is the thing, rather than individual nodes.
23:22	crtdaydreams	yes but no, I don't believe that it's representative of a global scale where there are different economic pressures on simply existing, and a large sociocultural discrepancy on ideas surroundind death and suicide, but from a strictly "western" standpoint. yes.
23:22	signpost	then sure, "I'm full of plastic and pesticide" is a great reason to wait to die and let others continue.
23:24	signpost	gonna go upstack and look at your "default position" thing.
23:24	signpost	that's strange; wouldn't the default position be to live?
23:24	crtdaydreams	well that's a more darwinian look at the same idea, but sure
23:25	crtdaydreams	well if you consider it's analogous to the western psychological operating system, it seems to be a default setting
23:26	signpost	it could be in some people, if usually there are others shouting you into groups, into action.
23:26	crtdaydreams	but I get what you're saying, perhaps default isn't the right word
23:27	signpost	maybe they haven't "taken" anything. they're there waiting for the wind to blow.
23:27	verisimilitude	Why not be bravely default?
23:28	crtdaydreams	are you suggesting that it's a natural resistance to the wind, even if oblivious to the axe man at the roots
23:28	verisimilitude	One can accept meaninglessness and still work in spite of it.
		↖
23:28	signpost	crtdaydreams: I'm saying you might have the agency in the wrong place, and what you see sitting inert is raw material.
23:29	crtdaydreams	the loggers come and gone
23:29	crtdaydreams	right.
23:30	signpost	alongside this we were curious how the raw material starts moving, and I suspect it's that you have a combination of a highly exploitable psychology (which we damned well have) and a hierarchial and rapidly expanding effort to infect same.
23:30	*	crtdaydreams seems to have gotten lost in a masturbatory analogy
23:30	*	signpost rather liked the last cult he enjoyed. wouldn't mind another, if the gods permit.
23:31	crtdaydreams	so a change of tack towards a rather darwinian evolutionary hive mind
23:32	signpost	not proposing anything.
23:32	*	crtdaydreams is simply trying to understand where you're getting at
23:32	signpost	I'm saying I don't see that anyone has one of these running currently, so there the raw material sits farmed by the wreckage of the last one.
23:32	signpost	when one starts again, you wont be saying how obvious it is that everything is meaningless.
23:33	signpost	you'll be saying it's good that the shop owner suffers through the struggle session, or w/e the future may be.
23:33	crtdaydreams	aha
23:38	crtdaydreams	it's lacking in a memetic sense, ideas (meaning) propagate over time through cultural artefacts, the "wreckage" if you like.
23:38	crtdaydreams	does that that would imply we've been in the wreckage since e.g. the death of Jesus
23:39	crtdaydreams	or whatever the last "great awakening" was
23:39	crtdaydreams	simply waiting for the next pyramidial power structure to sweep us up
23:40	verisimilitude	I find the thought to be silly.
23:41	verisimilitude	There has been plenty of wreckage before and after that.
23:42	signpost	I'm referring to the same category of recent derps that you are.
23:43	signpost	also I don't know what "in a memetic sense" is. talk to me like I'm an idiot.
23:43	crtdaydreams	the vistigial structures of past awakenings are persistent
23:47	signpost	give an idiot some examples of why you say that, why not
23:47	crtdaydreams	memes are said cultural artefacts. hell the entire bible could be considered a meme. memetic simply describes the process of exchange of memes. 200 years ago the process was mail a letter of corrospondence by horse and cart. now we have .jpeg and wire.
23:48	crtdaydreams	it's somewhat derived from cybernetics
23:49	signpost	yup, I know what a meme is.
23:49	signpost	to restate what I think you've said, you think your generation is experiencing a meme drought and is therefore wasting?
23:52	crtdaydreams	kek no, the old memes went stale and the cycle between memes is getting exponetially shorter
23:53	signpost	see how you kinda gloss over use of a metaphor, let its implied meaning sit. then I have to go "what's a stale meme?! what's the meme cycle!? why's it shortening" lol
23:53	verisimilitude	Have a fun fact: The word ``vestigial'' comes from the Latin VESTIGIVM meaning animal prints and the like.
23:54	crtdaydreams	let me reprhase
23:56	signpost	verisimilitude: footprints it looks like. til
23:56	verisimilitude	Yes.
23:56	verisimilitude	My book introduced the word with a wolf's paw print left in the ground.
23:56	verisimilitude	I hadn't made the connection until I saw the word in writing.
23:58	signpost	see this idea that the "old memes went stale" sounds like lazy bullshit emitted after the fact to excuse taking them at once for granted and dismissed.
23:58	crtdaydreams	no, rather the artefacts of past civilisations and revolutionary thought are no longer appealing, the time spent on digesting and compounding on ideas and generating new artefacts is decreasing over time in a cyclical fashion
23:59	signpost	I think this idea occurs to you because you're an implicit democrat, even if consciously claimed otherwise.
23:59	signpost	so you think it was a public opinion poll.
23:59	signpost	one sec, brb

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