Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-03-09 | 2017-03-11 → ↓
00:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1497...5393 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)
00:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1709...1097 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)
00:08 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623875 << I agree and will admit that my bot and log-o-tron are/were largely forged from used dildos I found laying in the forest. I also don't pretend that they are anything but
00:08 a111 Logged on 2017-03-09 18:23 trinque: I said to him "students may learn swordplay but may not tell us the fork in their hands is a sword"
00:08 lobbes I'm still in the process of climbing out of the primordial soup, so to speak. 'had to start somewhere, etc'; Though I realize I will need to flamethrow my own creations soon enough and rebuild once I 'evolve' a bit more. But all in due time
00:09 trinque cool, later in the thread I'm convinced the whole thing is reasonable
00:09 trinque :p
00:13 lobbes sure, but from what I can observe, your own deedbot (and others' log-o-trons) appear to operate in a more sane manner. I guess I'm just saying I have much to learn
00:14 trinque happy to help when you feel like trying it out.
00:15 trinque in fact, I'll go ahead and get the logbot-service thing released now, since it's been running the wot & voicing for maybe a month now
00:16 ben_vulpes > forged from used dildos
00:16 lobbes trinque: ah thank you!
00:16 ben_vulpes HAVE YE VISITED MOUNT DILDO FORGE, NEWCOMER?
00:17 lobbes l0l
~ 1 hours 45 minutes ~
02:02 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624027 <<< bwhaha "couille molle"
02:02 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 03:18 BingoBoingo: lulz http://www.returnofkings.com/116375/le-favori-de-lelection-presidentielle-francaise-cette-couille-molle-marie-a-une-femme-de-25-ans-son-ainee
~ 3 hours 32 minutes ~
05:34 phf asciilifeform: there's several sources of vlm floating around, some of them improved upon by independent hackers (in the direct meaning of the word improve)
05:39 phf asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~
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05:40 phf i've spent some time with it before, improving mac os support, and working out crash issues
05:43 phf i don't quite remember, what goes where, but i'm pretty sure the emulator.c that you linked is a frankenstein that primarily emulates alpha, though it has some signifcant knowledge about what the alpha emulator does, so it's not quite qemu, but something a lot scarrier
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05:48 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/03/park-geun-hye-impeachment-upheld-by-south-korean-court-shes-out-of-there/ << Qntra - Park Geun-hye Impeachment Upheld By South Korean Court – She's Out Of There
05:53 phf https://github.com/hanshuebner/vlm/blob/master/alpha-emulator/ifunlist.as#L52 e.g. lisp machine instruction DoAssoc, but the code below, all those BIS, SUBL, SUBQ are alpha instruction set
05:56 phf there's a translation code (in lisp) that takes that alpha body and spits out c equilvalent of the BIS ... SUBL ... etc. sequence
05:58 phf lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
07:13 davout in other women torture news: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR-fA6OG21w
07:13 mircea_popescu meanwhile in "totally not torture she's evidently enjoying herself your honor", http://68.media.tumblr.com/b017ae134ec78e38392c2fe15680847c/tumblr_ocdzn3JHCz1ric730o2_400.gif
07:16 mircea_popescu davout est ce qu'elle jouit un peu?
07:17 davout i know i would
07:17 mircea_popescu o shit did i actually get the verb righ for once ?
07:18 davout almost perfect
07:18 davout just missed a hyphen
07:18 davout est-ce
07:18 davout other than that nailed it
07:19 mircea_popescu nuts.
07:20 mircea_popescu I was with ben_vulpes at dildo forge, knee deep in girl spunk
07:20 mircea_popescu i said how come the men here suffer like they do ?
07:25 mircea_popescu phf the story of alpha is perhaps one of the best illustrations of the fundamentally anti-intellectual stance and calling of the female state. 1980s true 64 bit architecture, well supported (openvms started there, ffs, go revolutionize shit in 2015 with the remnants of 1980s tech). "sold" to fiorina's company, never heard from again, because gotta prop up intel.
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07:40 mircea_popescu phf it's ogni/ch'entrate not ogne / ch'intrate, btw :D
07:41 mircea_popescu you totally gotta to eat more varied cunt, i can tell by your vowels your gyneceum's monocultural!
~ 1 hours 16 minutes ~
08:58 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...4657 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)
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08:58 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1622...1153 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)
~ 28 minutes ~
09:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624127 << the classic alpha ver you described was in one of the subdirs, aha. and a recent g5 one (that dks mentioned to me in 2010 when he delivered the long-awaited genera alpha to my rupturefarm)
09:26 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 10:39 phf: asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~
09:27 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624127 << the c src i linked to does not appear to match this description, seems to be honest emulator
09:27 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 10:39 phf: asciilifeform: if you spent time with it though, you'll realize that it's an assembly dump of the original emulator written for alpha, and the "emulator" part is actually a combination of c and lisp necessary to ~translate original alpha assembly into portable-ish c~
09:27 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624129 << mno
09:27 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 10:43 phf: i don't quite remember, what goes where, but i'm pretty sure the emulator.c that you linked is a frankenstein that primarily emulates alpha, though it has some signifcant knowledge about what the alpha emulator does, so it's not quite qemu, but something a lot scarrier
09:28 asciilifeform phf: link to yours some time ?
09:33 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624146 << alpha was already half-dead when hp swallowed compaq, in '02. iirc compaq shitburied it in '01 and sold all rights to intel, who proclaimed the arch now known as 'itanic' as its replacement.
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09:33 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 12:25 mircea_popescu: phf the story of alpha is perhaps one of the best illustrations of the fundamentally anti-intellectual stance and calling of the female state. 1980s true 64 bit architecture, well supported (openvms started there, ffs, go revolutionize shit in 2015 with the remnants of 1980s tech). "sold" to fiorina's company, never heard from again, because gotta prop up intel.
09:33 mircea_popescu iirc it was late 90s
09:33 asciilifeform amd hired the designers away
09:33 mircea_popescu yeah it was ishitsomething, itembel, i dun recall.
09:33 asciilifeform and turned from a sort of 'cyrix' , piss clones maker, into actual cpu house
09:34 mircea_popescu aha
09:34 mircea_popescu lasted about as their professional lives did, also.
09:34 mircea_popescu amd couldn't hire a new set.
09:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'itanium', vliw monster for which nobody was ever able to make a useful compiler
09:34 mircea_popescu yeah, i recall it wasn't ever actually deployed in any meaningful sense. ielbrus.
09:35 asciilifeform afaik only known working examples are in usg heathen pits
09:35 mircea_popescu same as elbrus yes.
09:35 mircea_popescu "a technology so powerful, so secret, it needn't even exist!"
09:35 mircea_popescu the nuke totally fucked up their brains.
09:36 * asciilifeform had a prof in uni who taught systems architecture (cpu design) with itanic as 'what not to do'
09:38 asciilifeform re alphas, i am rather fond of the alpha, i have several here, possibly mentioned before
09:38 asciilifeform not quite 'fits in head' machine, but 'fits in book'
09:41 asciilifeform one perverse fact, is that microshit had a winblowz ecosystem for it, ready to go, it could have been he 'designated winner' in intel's place. except -- no, because gotta target the konsoomer chump junk ...
09:42 asciilifeform ( the sane folx, who had alphas with tru64, openvms, etc, went 'wtf why would i even think of winblowz' -- which wouldn't do. whole edifice 'musted die' )
09:47 mircea_popescu ah i recall that, windows nt
09:48 mircea_popescu well, anyway, i suppose it is a good thing the intelligent people involved could you know, pursue their own self-determined will and etcetera. who knows how many glorious flights of amateur rc airplanes this obviously reasonable arrangement gave the world!
09:49 mircea_popescu not to mention of all the truly priceless fishing and whatnot else, history hasn't recorded.
09:50 Framedragger i like my rc airplanes. "the will of history necessitates you to X" has a marx'ified hegelian vibe :p
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09:53 mod6 mornin'
09:53 Framedragger o/
09:54 mircea_popescu oyesitdoes.
09:55 mircea_popescu adolescence is the perceiving of boundless possibilities and maturity comes with the comprehension of the bounds.
09:57 Framedragger myeah #trilema is basically valgrind.
10:01 mircea_popescu but, as the eternally mentioned bottle well informs : the above has any merit only inasmuch it rankles the subject himself. otherwise it's nothing ; and besides there's many ways to, in brick pollitt's words, "hear that little click"
10:02 mircea_popescu so all is not lost! stupor abounds and thanks to the ever advancing technologee is now cheaper than ever!
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10:03 mircea_popescu meanwhile at spiked ball ranch, http://68.media.tumblr.com/b9d67860081dce95976c346981a1bc71/tumblr_obxnfzrDdZ1s4jw4io1_1280.jpg
10:15 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624188 << i built myself a 'games box' , not long ago, 'to unwind', but turned out that the part of my head that was able to enjoy this, had atrophied, found myself constantly 'if i'm this awake, oughta be running $experiment, finishing up $unfinisheds', etc. ended up giving the (princely) fuckofftron to brother to play with.
10:15 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 15:02 mircea_popescu: so all is not lost! stupor abounds and thanks to the ever advancing technologee is now cheaper than ever!
10:16 asciilifeform somehow, long ago internalized mircea_popescu's above point re the model airplanes.
10:17 asciilifeform 'if not you, then who' (tm) (r)
10:17 mircea_popescu yeah, it's not lost on me that i'm the loudest preacher of continence in a cloister of monks muchly more restrained and disciplined than myself.
10:18 mircea_popescu i suppose that's why they have that "excluding present company" device.
~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~
11:37 trinque asciilifeform: getting rejected by dulap with that ssh key I gave ya.
11:37 asciilifeform trinque: you gotta log in as shown in the recipe
11:37 trinque oops, k.
11:42 asciilifeform trinque: i.e. your login is 'tunnel', not 'deedbot'
11:44 trinque ding
11:44 asciilifeform worx?
11:45 trinque ayep
11:45 trinque connecting trb to it now
11:49 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0376A22D7C6DDA3C6BCF95FADF960352C32B7EC823CB87C4197DEE78BA0E4D9F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1489...1137 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.182.76.82 (ssh-rsa key from 213.182.76.82 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (213-182-76-82.ip.welcomeitalia.it. IT)
11:49 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0376A22D7C6DDA3C6BCF95FADF960352C32B7EC823CB87C4197DEE78BA0E4D9F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1580...0613 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.182.76.82 (ssh-rsa key from 213.182.76.82 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (213-182-76-82.ip.welcomeitalia.it. IT)
11:49 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624048 << feltbad, so wrote that stupid symlink and fs profiling tool that no-one wanted to do. results later. while at it: anyone knows if CLOCK_MONOTONIC has sufficient resolution for profiling? asciilifeform? allegedly - yes.
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11:49 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 03:46 mircea_popescu: Framedragger i don't get it, you graphed some functions ? or ?
11:50 Framedragger getting ~4000-7000ns for symlink resolution to real path for a 1mn symlink dir structure, e.g.
11:50 asciilifeform that's slightly slower, looks like, than the old db..
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11:51 * Framedragger spent longer than wants to admit sorting out his heap and valgrind'ing. too much python is bad for a person
11:51 Framedragger orly? this is *ns* (10^-9), mind you. hm. and this is just resolution of path with single symlink in it
11:52 asciilifeform ok backtracking : what means 'resolution'
11:52 Framedragger sorry - yeah
11:52 asciilifeform does this include the actual read ?
11:52 Framedragger no
11:52 asciilifeform aah
11:52 asciilifeform also, on what
11:52 asciilifeform ssd ?
11:52 Framedragger asciilifeform: call to `readlink()`.
11:52 Framedragger yes, ssd
11:52 asciilifeform and on top of what (ext4 ? )
11:52 Framedragger ssd under docker fs, later - real disk
11:53 Framedragger ext4, yes
11:53 asciilifeform and connected how ? ( sata2 ? 3 ? )
11:53 Framedragger uhh
11:53 asciilifeform wtf is 'dockerfs'
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11:53 Framedragger note, it's just some additional syscalls, re docker
11:53 Framedragger will get a way to test real disk soon, didn't want to run on personal trashy PC, hence shitty server
11:54 asciilifeform to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?
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11:54 Framedragger aha, right. i haven't even looked at bdb.
11:54 Framedragger what i want to do later when i find time is, actually read file, too, of course.
11:55 Framedragger for now, just generated 1mn symlinks with names corresponding to transaction hash hex.
11:55 asciilifeform let's put down in the log, what exactly ye olde bdb does, that eats 99+% of trb's wall clock:
11:55 asciilifeform it exists (wallet idiocy aside) in trb for 1 purpose and 1 purpose only
11:55 asciilifeform ... so that a 256-bit turd, e.g., 3ec455a2a84e978687a3990cec73f36b324fbd28e03603c6d9fc52018b001558, can be taken and matched to a block # where said tx lives.
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11:56 asciilifeform and likewise when a new block comes, all of the tx in it, get indexed this way.
11:56 Framedragger so the 'matching' (index lookup) is the 99% here, right?
11:57 asciilifeform lookup+store
11:57 Framedragger aha, right.
11:57 asciilifeform btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
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11:58 asciilifeform picture a 16GB contiguous block of ssd. you cut it up so that it corresponds to 2^32 x 32bits.
11:58 Framedragger (yeah btw, just ftr, symlink *creation* under populated dir structure (`ln -s files_f1/block35461.txt dc/dc89c1f2b58909d3814b250a731a9b9b791b092759553e3ba6579ffaad3a7565`) is slow. however, the creation was done using shellscript, need to move to c to be able to actually profile with precision.)
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11:59 asciilifeform now you store the table as follows: the top 32 bits (e.g., 3ec455a2 from above) are an array index into this table
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11:59 asciilifeform if there are no collisions (i.e. there is no other tx on the disk whose id begins with 3ec455a2) then that entry in the array IS the block index where the tx lives.
12:00 asciilifeform after which finding the actual tx is an O(N) operation in the block, with small N (the tx in the block)
12:00 Framedragger aha, right! so it's basically a (small) hashtable.
12:00 Framedragger (right?)
12:00 asciilifeform lemme finish plox
12:00 Framedragger sorry.
12:01 asciilifeform BUT if there are collisions, the upper bit of the 32bit entry, is set. and then we know that the lower 31, are an index into another contiguous array
12:01 asciilifeform and there we find ~lists of block indices~, so the machine might have to try 2 or 3 blocks before it finds tx.
12:02 asciilifeform how to ~write~ to this data structure is, i think, obvious to the reader, i do not need to describe.
12:02 asciilifeform anyway this is the simplest physically-possible scheme.
12:02 trinque oh jesus docker Framedragger
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12:02 asciilifeform but, thing is, it won't work any better on mechanical disk than the old bdb. and imho it is quite impossible to make variable-length tx bitcoin work well on mechanical disk, with modern spamola level.
12:02 * trinque gets his knotted rope
12:03 asciilifeform however it does have the advantage of not using 10,000,001 lines of ext4 open sores crapolade for anything.
12:03 asciilifeform this whole thing would probably fit in ~1,000 lines of c.
12:03 asciilifeform and in-head.
12:03 Framedragger trinque: it's just a kindergarten way of wrapping up some syscalls. will obviously benchmark outside it later. i wasn't completely certain that my tool wouldn't trash the host fs. :)
12:04 Framedragger asciilifeform: hmm, very nice. i suppose it's as close to fixed-length as is possible given current bitcoin
12:04 asciilifeform Framedragger: it is literally the smallest number of moving parts i can think of , that'd do the job.
12:04 Framedragger efficient seeking.
12:04 asciilifeform also on a reasonable box you can keep the l1 table in ram
12:05 asciilifeform so then you have 1 disk seek per tx, rather than 2.
12:06 asciilifeform ( or, in the case of ext4 or other konsoomer fs, fuck-knows-how-many ! )
12:06 Framedragger asciilifeform: wait, what is "block index"? just the integer denoting block number?
12:06 asciilifeform Framedragger: correct
12:07 asciilifeform block where tx lives.
12:07 Framedragger why the need for "the machine might have to try 2 or 3 blocks before it finds tx" then? and if so, then no guarantee of only 1 seek?
12:07 asciilifeform Framedragger: it depends how many collisions per 32bit head
12:08 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7FF10FFD5E7F7EE6C2497D20452061FB8713C20F904A7A86B21EE093A5E7D254 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1391...6403 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.16.61 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.16.61 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (a61.ip.network-consulting.fr. FR)
12:08 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7FF10FFD5E7F7EE6C2497D20452061FB8713C20F904A7A86B21EE093A5E7D254 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1797...3053 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '79.98.16.61 (ssh-rsa key from 79.98.16.61 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (a61.ip.network-consulting.fr. FR)
12:08 asciilifeform one seek, on a standard disk, gives you at least 4kB (blocks are 512b, but no disk made in past 20 years actually ~stops at~ 512)
12:08 asciilifeform remember, we are contemplating contiguous blocks on disk
12:08 Framedragger oh i finally understood, literally all there is when one seeks to location 3ec455a2 is a list of block numbers. (or single block number.)
12:08 asciilifeform aha.
12:10 asciilifeform if you're willing to blow another 16GB, you can have an l2 table
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12:10 Framedragger this is quite nice, and as you say, seek operation already gives a small chunk which should cover most/all tx for current state of affairs (total number of transactions)...
12:10 asciilifeform on same principle
12:10 asciilifeform Framedragger: it's good for many, many times the current cumulative-tx
12:11 asciilifeform you'll have somewhere between 0 and 2 , statistically, tx per 32bit table entry.
12:11 Framedragger is this the first time you articulated this approach here? i think that's the best on can have for fs-tx-db
12:11 asciilifeform yes, first time, i kept waiting for someone to open a schoolbook and describe this very elementary algo
12:13 asciilifeform it has obvious minus, in that you need a kernel driver
12:13 asciilifeform if you want to actually have the contiguous 16GB
12:13 asciilifeform however mircea_popescu's 'let's patch ext4' has same.
12:14 Framedragger at least i have the excuse of not having looked at the bdb problem / staying away from trb for the time being :p
12:14 asciilifeform i dare say the tabular algo is simple enough to actually be implementable.
12:14 Framedragger i'm not sure if you do need driver
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12:14 asciilifeform Framedragger: if you want your own fs, and to write to contiguous disk, you do
12:14 Framedragger here i have an ssd seek profiler which just needs root
12:15 asciilifeform who the fuck wants trb running as root
12:15 asciilifeform (you may as well stuff it in the kernel, then)
12:15 Framedragger it uses `lseek64()`
12:16 Framedragger have separate service taking care of that? i mean, kernel driver is this kind of 'externality', too (and also ring0)
12:16 asciilifeform the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array
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12:17 asciilifeform ...rather than to have any serious number crunching in kernelspace
12:17 Framedragger makes sense.
12:17 asciilifeform also this is probably obvious, but you want separate disk for this
12:17 asciilifeform physically
12:17 asciilifeform from the one you are running from
12:17 asciilifeform if you want serious speed.
12:17 Framedragger sure
12:18 asciilifeform ideally you would even have separate disks for blocks and tx indices.
12:19 asciilifeform ok, now question for ben_vulpes , trinque , mircea_popescu , et al : anybody got a quick c proggy that will eat blkcut's blocks and produce a linear list of tx ? i'd like to actually calculate the current 32bit tabular collision rate.
12:19 asciilifeform it is statistically possible that we don't even have ONE collision yet
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12:20 asciilifeform (and thereby a 16GB l1 table would give you wholly in-memory index for ~all tx lookups)
12:22 asciilifeform btw Framedragger , we can do 1 better than 'block index'
12:22 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: not a c proggy, no
12:22 asciilifeform say we put down blocks on 1024 byte alignments.
12:22 Framedragger as in, disk/partition alignments?
12:22 asciilifeform nono listne
12:23 asciilifeform then a 31bit (remember, highest bit means 'go to l2 table') offset gives you a 2^^41 bit space in which your table entry can point to the beginning of a block.
12:23 asciilifeform or, rather, to where-to-start-looking-for-tx
12:23 asciilifeform ^
12:23 asciilifeform so we dispense with the O(N) dumb search inside-block
12:25 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1B44E66975AB5EE7B22A779D4B31F07CE8CE336A45DE02B74BAD206055C62130 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1594...7037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.180.151 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.180.151 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
12:25 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1B44E66975AB5EE7B22A779D4B31F07CE8CE336A45DE02B74BAD206055C62130 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1711...0703 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.180.151 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.180.151 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
12:26 asciilifeform Framedragger: alignment in this case means that we can point ~inside~ blocks, supposing they are stored linearly on disk
12:26 asciilifeform so long as we are ok with having to chug through 1023 bytes of 'not here yet!'
12:26 asciilifeform which costs us 0 because no disk made in last 20 yrs reads any less than 4kB on 1 seek.
12:27 asciilifeform point being, to point at a tx sitting on a multi-TB disk, you don't need to be able to address it ~bytewise~
12:27 asciilifeform thinkaboutit.
12:28 Framedragger bear with my slowness, can you clarify how it looks like if there's a collision in the initial lookup?
12:28 Framedragger in this case.
12:28 asciilifeform it goes to l2 table
12:28 asciilifeform which can take 2 basic forms, depending on your storage budget
12:29 asciilifeform if you're 'rich', it can be a table entirely like l1
12:29 asciilifeform where if top bit of the entry is not set, you have your where-to-go-to-find-tx-on-disk result
12:29 asciilifeform and if set, you gotta look at the next machine word (each entry has a certain amount of space for collisions)
12:30 asciilifeform 'look at next' can also mean 'go to l3', if you're willing to budget another 16G.
12:30 asciilifeform and so forth.
12:31 asciilifeform the most basic setup has an l1 which immediately proceeds to the 'slow' table (where you have to look at multiple offsets in case of collision, to find your tx)
12:31 Framedragger right! ahh that's nice. (so just to clarify, the 1024 byte block trick wouldn't work if there's a collision (unless additional budget / w/e))
12:31 asciilifeform this form will almost certainly suffice for another decade of trb
12:31 asciilifeform considering that we have, what, 200 mil tx; and l1 table gives you 4billion slots.
12:31 Framedragger yeah, given actual tx amounts.. 250mn vs. 2^32
12:31 asciilifeform aha.
12:31 Framedragger yeah.
12:32 Framedragger well *that sounds like a very decent idea*. :)
12:32 asciilifeform Framedragger: the 1024bt thing works in all cases, it simply means that you don't have to point to beginnings of blocks, but to a place very near the tx
12:32 asciilifeform see, we store the blocks linearly
12:32 asciilifeform this also abolishes the cost of 'budget 1MB per block'
12:32 asciilifeform now you can store them back-to-back
12:33 asciilifeform because you can point inside'em in the index.
12:33 Framedragger yeah i forget sometimes. fixed block length is nice for this...
12:33 asciilifeform fixed 1MB would give you O(1) block seek.
12:33 Framedragger ahh, yeah okay, back-to-back you mean exactly that, not having to allocate 1MB per block.
12:35 asciilifeform however block index is not large -- say we have 500,000 blocks, and you want to know where on disk lives its beginning, and your disk takes 64bit lba addressor. so you need 500,000 * 8bytes == 4,000,000 bytes ! 3 floppy's worth
12:35 asciilifeform except that you don't actually need byte-addressing !
12:36 asciilifeform that is, you don't need 8 bytes to say which 4kB slice has the beginning
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12:36 asciilifeform so in practice, you can have O(1) seeks ~while~ storing the blocks back-to-back in a classical trb.
12:37 Framedragger (i see how good it is to be aware of how actual disks read data here. some theoretician would propose a pointer-exact-location scheme instead...)
12:37 asciilifeform if you want to consider 'what would give best performance on the iron we have, with minimal moving parts, with the trb we have' this is what comes out.
12:38 asciilifeform i was recently considering implementing a similar scheme for phuctor, and realized today that it would work entirely well in trb.
12:40 Framedragger it's a really Good Thing that the hashing function which spits out transaction hashes gives *uniform distribution*. no congestion / too many collisions expected, and this scheme leverages that.
12:40 asciilifeform btw mircea_popescu's suggestion from last night, to dispense with 'blocks' as separate class of object, and simply store sequence of tx, with 'this was in block B' field added -- would work quite well with this scheme.
12:41 asciilifeform now store each tx on a 4096bt 'cylinder' boundary, and you're golden
12:41 asciilifeform the table can index individual tx.
12:41 Framedragger i guess one can imagine a single sequence of tx then, simply.
12:41 asciilifeform aha.
12:41 Framedragger aha right.
12:42 Framedragger decent ideas, what can i say
12:43 asciilifeform imho the 'hard part' is not even to implement this table, it is freshman homework, but to unravel the liquishit in trb and learn where to even put the lookup/write !
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12:44 Framedragger yeah that's one reason i'm not too attracted to trb, tbh, the amount of sewage gruntwork required to decouple shit from the monolith.
12:44 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/db.cpp?v=makefiles#0329 << starting here.
12:45 asciilifeform the gnarly part is to dissect all of shitoshi's idiot special cases (e.g. 'ReadOwnerTxes')
12:45 asciilifeform and reduce all of the bdbisms to calls to table ops.
12:46 asciilifeform or, for instance, what is ReadDiskTx .
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12:46 asciilifeform (as far as i can see, it is unused code)
12:47 Framedragger hmh, at least functions make up not the *worst* interface seen, but still lotsa work and weird mutable shit sprayed all around, i imagine
13:01 trinque on the subj, still waiting for my node to shut down to connect the wire to dulap
13:01 trinque god forbid the disk always be in a coherent state, eh?
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13:01 asciilifeform trinque: i've found that 'kill', which syncs the db, followed by kill -9, which nukes shitoshi's pointless wait idiocy, worx 100%.
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13:02 asciilifeform with 0 loss.
13:02 trinque that's right, it's doing a sleep or two of several minutes
13:02 asciilifeform 0 reason to let it
13:02 asciilifeform winblowz culture.
13:02 trinque what, thing needs to cool?!
13:02 asciilifeform (some time grep for the sleeps, it is instructive)
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13:03 asciilifeform idiot put them ~everywhere
13:03 asciilifeform i am nearly convinced that he was, at one time, a microshit employee.
13:03 asciilifeform nobody else does this!11
13:06 asciilifeform Framedragger, ben_vulpes : i predict that there will be few enough collisions that you can shunt ~all~ collision cases off to an O(N) lookup table, for next decade, with ~0 measurable loss of avg.case performance.
13:06 asciilifeform (lookup table consisting of, literally, rows of full txid followed by where-on-disk, that you'd chug through whenever collisionbit is set)
13:08 Framedragger yeah, makes sense to me (on average, current likelihood of particular 32 bit entry being populated is ~ < 6%)
13:08 asciilifeform so, literally,
13:09 asciilifeform if (table[txidtop32] & 0x80000000) return linearlookup(txidtop32);
13:09 asciilifeform else return disklookup(table[txidtop32]) ;
13:09 asciilifeform .
13:11 asciilifeform 'linearlookup' is the slow-table from earlier
13:11 asciilifeform disklookup is the 'go to nth cylinder and before you get to n+1st cylinder, THERE's yer tx' from earlier still.
13:11 asciilifeform and you have here ~whole thing.
13:12 asciilifeform ( i can already picture mircea_popescu spitting out his breakfast, 'modern hdd dun have cylinder, you nut' -- except, it in effect DOES, fetches massive blox , whether mechanical or ssd, by design, for ages now )
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13:16 Framedragger there's an assumption as max num of collisions here, of course, but obvs in practical terms it's a very safe assumption...
13:16 Framedragger as to*
13:16 asciilifeform there is not.
13:16 Framedragger oh
13:16 asciilifeform if you get moar collisions, you simply end up in the slowtable moar often.
13:17 Framedragger and the slow-table.. hm
13:17 asciilifeform if you start seeing them ~regularly~ (say, trb makes it to 50 yrs from nao) you put in a l2 table.
13:17 asciilifeform then you get another century.
13:17 asciilifeform (i would hope that l1 will last until trbi..)
13:17 Framedragger right right, not disputing that.
13:17 asciilifeform do the arithmetic, it isn't as if anyone can cancel the 'block per 10min' thing.
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13:18 Framedragger yeah. hmh - i guess that's it. literally. nice scheme
13:18 asciilifeform there is 1 potential nuance,
13:18 asciilifeform enemy might start to 'mine' txids
13:18 asciilifeform so that they collide
13:19 asciilifeform but this'd cost'em moar than simply to mine.
13:19 asciilifeform (you could in fact use a repurposed miner, for this, as i understand)
13:20 asciilifeform at any rate, working around this idiocy would be very cheap -- say we index by top32 of keccak(txid) instead of plain txid. in the event of.
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13:20 asciilifeform much cheaper to reindex a trb node, what, 1 night, than for enemy to bake new asics.
13:20 asciilifeform so this scenario, imho, is out.
13:21 asciilifeform (enemy is welcome to bash his skull to a pancake against the cement wall)
13:24 Framedragger while at it, and i'm guessing it's in the logs.., i wonder when was the last time some tried to come up with an approximation what the costs to get to >50% network hashing power would be
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13:24 Framedragger i'm guessing that an interested state could totally do that
13:24 Framedragger and yeah, this 'generate collisions' scenario seems like a harder version of 'just mine'
13:24 asciilifeform Framedragger: there was old thread with mircea_popescu , where he stated that usg and china attempted it at same time, and perma-deadlocked
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13:24 asciilifeform iirc in 2014.
13:25 Framedragger attempted.. citing internal intelligence of course, or something
13:25 asciilifeform aha
13:25 Framedragger hard to believe, but then, i should read logs at least
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13:26 asciilifeform Framedragger: the other thing is that it is quite impossible to come up with meaningful cost figure
13:26 asciilifeform because the cost, to someone who ALREADY has fab capability , is miniscule
13:26 asciilifeform whereas to someone without (e.g. the folx here) it is ~infinite.
13:27 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624424 << what, it contradicts yours?
13:27 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:25 Framedragger: hard to believe, but then, i should read logs at least
13:29 Framedragger :p
13:30 Framedragger asciilifeform: yeah, i see what you mean
13:30 asciilifeform Framedragger: http://preshing.com/20110504/hash-collision-probabilities << re earlier. quick likbez on collision probability calculation using 'birthday theorem'
13:32 asciilifeform http://preshing.com/20160314/leapfrog-probing << from same www, also notbad.jpg illustration of schoolbook hash tables.
13:33 Framedragger aha, so there's high probability that there will *be* a collision across the entire space.
13:33 asciilifeform Framedragger: just as you do not need 366 people in a room for a birthday collision.
13:33 asciilifeform (~guaranteed at 80 or so)
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13:33 Framedragger sure, yeah! nice illustrations there
13:35 asciilifeform ought to help those folx for whom kindergarten happened long, long ago, to picture the subj of today's thread.
13:36 asciilifeform i'll round this out by observing that potentially you might be able to get away with less than 32bits of table (i.e. less than 16GB of space)
13:37 asciilifeform depending on the collision rate.
13:37 asciilifeform i like 32 (recall, 31, we need 1 bit for collision marker) because it translates cleanly to our physical machine.
13:37 asciilifeform but can use, e.g., 30, 29...
13:37 asciilifeform if 'poor'.
13:38 asciilifeform the scheme 'degrades gracefully'.
13:40 asciilifeform the ~other~ thing i'll point out, is that you do not in fact need 16GB of ram, to implement that table , if you can do it in the kernel
13:40 asciilifeform you can use x64's page table to 'cheat' and store a sparse form !
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13:40 asciilifeform but THIS i will leave as an exercise for the reader.
13:41 asciilifeform ( however it will be intuitively obvious, to anyone familiar with x86/x64 and similar archs, that this is physically possible. i.e. you never actually need to store a contiguous empty GB in memory, if you can manipulate the page table )
13:43 Framedragger heh you can even use things like nx bit if not wanting to reorganize table, i would guess!
13:43 asciilifeform why would you ever not have the nx bit set for a motherfucking table
13:44 Framedragger that's a horrible idea for sure, but hey, free space to cheat in
13:44 asciilifeform you don't need any moar kludges, the scheme described, will work.
13:44 asciilifeform with hard guarantees, even.
13:45 Framedragger no, of course, you just mentioned possible cheats, but you probably meant something more 'robust'.
13:45 asciilifeform i meant 'cheats' that use the machine as-prescribed and save multiple GB.
13:45 asciilifeform rather than 'let's put cock into gas tank because it fits'
13:47 deedbot http://trinque.org/2017/03/10/deedbot-wired-to-dulap/ << trinque - deedbot.org wired to dulap
13:48 asciilifeform congrats trinque !!
13:48 trinque thanks to you sir
13:48 trinque if you want a reciprocal wire lemme know
13:48 asciilifeform i very well might, shortly.
13:49 asciilifeform (would like to test 2way 'wiring' first on a non-infrastructural set of boxen )
13:49 asciilifeform it'd suck if dulap ~and~ deedbot choked in same day, say.
13:49 asciilifeform 'if one synchronized swimmer drowns, must the others?' (tm) (unknown)
13:50 trinque aha, lol
13:56 asciilifeform trinque: fwiw i still know of at least 1 unsolved tickle re 'wires' -- how to avoid multiple redundant connections
13:56 asciilifeform (right now, e.g., zoolag and dulap happily also find each other over ordinary peer table and connect plaintext)
13:57 asciilifeform i'd like to think of an elegant solution to this
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13:57 asciilifeform (can, say, ban them from talking on 8333 to each other in iptables, but this is stupid because then they will not share the perfectly-good ip with OTHER peers)
13:58 asciilifeform and yes i could put in a '--noplaintextpeer=x,y,z...' flag, BUT
13:58 asciilifeform BUT this would make it very easy for the enemy to determine who is 'wired' to whom
13:59 asciilifeform by looking at who never plaintcp's to whom on 8333 !
13:59 asciilifeform so we have dilemma.
13:59 asciilifeform maybe mircea_popescu can cut it, with his knife.
14:00 asciilifeform ( and ~yes~ right now it is very easy to see 'who wired to whom' by looking at ssh, but in the future we will presumably route multi-hop, via a gossiptron, and it will be less obvious )
14:01 asciilifeform at any rate this is a 'theoretical' problem, imho 'not burning'.
14:10 asciilifeform !~later tell Framedragger the table system can be easily prototyped , without writing any kernel code, by using 16G file on ordinary disk. (at the obvious speed penalty.)
14:10 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
14:11 asciilifeform (on ordinary userland fs, which you have now.)
14:11 Framedragger asciilifeform: yeah! i may have time / want to do this in ~april. just to be clear, there's really no way to have underlying userland fs allocate a contiguous block, right?
14:11 asciilifeform ( i wonder if there are any traditional fs that will actually give you 16G of contiguous blocks, if asked nicely )
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14:12 Framedragger ah, that's the q i guess
14:12 asciilifeform Framedragger: you asked at same time as i .. lol
14:12 asciilifeform afaik answer is 0
14:12 asciilifeform but worth investigating imho.
14:14 Framedragger also, wonder if there could be a relevant linux cap'ability for allowing raw access to given /dev/block. but maybe not.
14:15 asciilifeform Framedragger: there is a udev trick, iirc, for giving particular users access to a given raw block dev
14:15 asciilifeform but you'll need to dedicate an entire disk
14:15 asciilifeform at any rate imho the flat-file variant oughta be tried 1st.
14:15 Framedragger well, 'disk' could just be partition which isn't a bad thing anyway, right?
14:15 asciilifeform then it can be readily mapped to physical disk.
14:15 Framedragger sure!
14:16 asciilifeform in fact it can be simply a file descriptor given on command line.
14:16 asciilifeform trb will not even need to know whether it was given a real disk, or flat file.
14:17 asciilifeform for the ultimate variant, where we don't even store 'blocks' as such, but merely sequence of specially-marked tx, you ~will~ need whole disk.
14:19 asciilifeform for completeness, i will note that you can model any 'whole disk' variant with an enormous flat file, in userland, at some speed penalty.
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14:19 asciilifeform (i can make a 400GB file on my disk, right now, and it will cost me a ~constant factor vs 'raw disk' i/o)
14:23 Framedragger ah yeah, iirc some applications even use this 'descriptor passing' technique so minimise high permissions level exposure (but don't recall). quite robust
14:23 asciilifeform to borrow from mircea_popescu et al, 'it works if you work it'
14:29 asciilifeform now, 1 more observation, the table scheme described here, can be safely parallelized, for so long as you ensure that the readers are never writing THE same place being elsewhere written.
14:30 asciilifeform unlike idiot db
14:30 asciilifeform or civilian file systems.
14:31 asciilifeform *the readers are never reading THE
14:31 asciilifeform lol.
14:32 Framedragger yes, but how to cheaply ensure the latter. you won't have a shitload of locks now will you
14:32 asciilifeform the reason for this ability, is that you never have 'tree rebalances' or whatever other crapolade general-purpose db, and konsoomer file systems , occupy themselves with !
14:32 Framedragger (i guess depends on nature of parallel work. e.g. if it's some kind of sequential re-confirm, launch threads with different segments, etc.)
14:33 asciilifeform Framedragger: all you need is to check a read candidate against the current list of active writes.
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14:33 Framedragger tree rebalance is a feature of a balance binary tree which is sometimes the right tool for the job, cmon :)
14:33 asciilifeform (in hardware this would be O(1) op, in our reality -- slightly slower)
14:33 Framedragger i guess i can see that
14:33 asciilifeform Framedragger: but not right tool for ~this~ job
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14:33 Framedragger s/balance binary/balanced binary/
14:33 asciilifeform the sha256 is balancing for us.
14:33 Framedragger of course, i agree, i'm just saying it's not "inherent problem of all db omg"
14:33 Framedragger yeah.
14:34 asciilifeform Framedragger: i am increasingly finding that 'general purpose db' is, like the infamous 'vise-grip', The Wrong Tool For Every Job
↖ ↖
14:34 asciilifeform ('visegrip' was/is an american gadget, looks rather like cross between pliers, locking forceps, and plumber's wrench, that was pitches as 'The Right Tool For Every Job' when introduced, some time mid-lastcentury)
14:35 asciilifeform using general-purpose db where performance is a critical concern, inevitably gets you http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615434 .
14:35 a111 Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
14:36 Framedragger those few $mil would be oracle
14:36 Framedragger heh.
14:37 asciilifeform observe, gavin, hearn, et al, have specific orders for past 5 or so yrs : 'make it so that bitcoin REQUIRES oracle cluster'
14:37 Framedragger yeah, i see what you mean, and everything. i'm not convinced that phuctor db is using the most it can from postgres, but neither you nor me have time to investigate this presently, i guess (and i may not be able to do a great job there anyway)
14:37 asciilifeform Framedragger: i did a good measure of tweaking, and exhausted current time budget for that chore
14:38 asciilifeform will come back to it at some point
14:38 trinque I would, in fact, at this point drop postgresql for a persistence layer for CLOS that did not use the thing under the hood.
14:38 asciilifeform trinque: then i'll need a cl pgp parser
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14:38 asciilifeform which i currently don't have.
14:38 asciilifeform and a new everything-else
14:38 asciilifeform (right now it uses an old python lib for wwwtronics)
14:39 trinque nah nah I have no prescription for phuctor
14:39 asciilifeform at some point, yes, i'll rewrite it again.
14:39 trinque we'll make a CL lib for p
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14:39 trinque gpg can go die in obscurity
14:39 asciilifeform trinque: phuctor is not simply about gpg, recall
14:39 asciilifeform it is a general-purpose shitrng telescope
14:40 asciilifeform largely yet-unused in the proper way.
14:40 asciilifeform we will be busting ssl keys, for instance, at some point
14:40 trinque aha
14:40 asciilifeform and who knows, what else.
14:41 asciilifeform maybe, who the fuck knows, collect enough data re winblows rng defects, via a future 'uci', to break satoshi's keys.
14:41 asciilifeform ('martian' example, but typifies the yet-unknown)
14:42 trinque there's what, a million or so in the stash? plenty to build asciilifeform's fab.
14:42 asciilifeform i did say, 'martian example', not immediate plan to action.
14:44 asciilifeform trinque: incidentally it is not clear, imho, that satoshi's keys are 'edible', they may not be good in practice for getting 'spendable' coin, the popularity of bitcoin per se may well drop catastrophically if you were to move satoshi's coinz
14:44 asciilifeform i contemplate it as more of a 'demolition charge', when trbi exists.
14:46 trinque occurs to me that the man might've seen the coins the same way.
14:46 asciilifeform ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009 << my old crackpot piece re subj )
14:48 asciilifeform and whether d00d burned his hdd, or not, has 0 bearing on whether his keys are, on account of his idiocy, breakable.
~ 43 minutes ~
15:31 Framedragger some (very initial) symlink stats - more stuff will have to wait - given a "here are 1mn 'transactions' which symlink to files, resolve links and read from linked files in random order for 100mn times" setup, with one-folder-deep structure, like so: "simple_f1/e5/e5edc34c57d5ea2ea99cfe16d04655aa000c3d7f268022d2b21f95928fa34674 -> /files_f1/99997.txt", most basic stats are:
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15:32 Framedragger Processed 1000000 lines (min/max target numbers seen: 1, 100000) - beginning benchmarks now... [i.e., 'target block' numbers are in this range. 1m symlinks point to 100k files randomly.]
15:32 Framedragger Uniform randomness report: min hits seen = 871, max hits seen = 1160, avg = 1000.00, sum = 100000000.0, minloc @ 85798, maxloc @ 88837
15:32 Framedragger Symlink resolve (readlink()) times given 100000000 iterations: min = 949 ns, max = 1353644 ns, avg = 1688.99 ns, stddev = 2502.42 ns, sum = 168899426822.0 ns, minloc @ 41772957, maxloc @ 20095033
15:32 Framedragger fopen() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1761 ns, max = 1506074 ns, avg = 2326.51 ns, stddev = 3003.91 ns, sum = 232650578514.0 ns, minloc @ 72539767, maxloc @ 19225446
15:32 Framedragger fread() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1189 ns, max = 53879016 ns, avg = 1552.73 ns, stddev = 6917.04 ns, sum = 155273497933.0 ns, minloc @ 2462746, maxloc @ 126806
15:32 Framedragger fclose() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 645 ns, max = 739202 ns, avg = 741.62 ns, stddev = 1647.59 ns, sum = 74161953610.0 ns, minloc @ 19564589, maxloc @ 67051179
15:32 Framedragger (fread() was 4k. files are short, with just the number of of 'block' for cross-confirmation and list of 'transactions' as contents.)
15:34 Framedragger (5ms read on an ssd ain't too pretty, but would have to check distribution of these kinds of tails, i guess.)
15:35 Framedragger (bbl)
15:40 Framedragger (ftr: sata 3gbps, ext4, intel SSDSA2CW30, mirror raid.)
15:55 asciilifeform Framedragger: your figures are probably quite 'optimistic' you have not only ssd, but cache in play
15:56 Framedragger asciilifeform: you're right, i was meaning to reset caches (`echo 3 >/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches` should be enough i think), but then forgot
15:56 Framedragger but could be other stuff, too, etc etc.
15:57 asciilifeform at this point ftr i'm quite firmly convinced that baking in massive open sores shitbucket, e.g. ext4, is The Wrong Thing
15:57 asciilifeform and not even because of speed.
15:58 Framedragger no disagreement tbh, i probably know your reasoning
15:59 asciilifeform i originally favoured it on account of simplicity
15:59 Framedragger given time, i was also meaning to run lots of strace to see what is in actuality happening with multiple symlinks etc, but maybe sisyphus
15:59 asciilifeform but in table system, you don't even need to munge indices into strings to make paths with
15:59 asciilifeform much less to fopen() !
15:59 Framedragger (anyway, will share tool i wrote if only because couldn't find anything fitting the task out there, but need to polish a bit first, etc.)
15:59 Framedragger yeah
16:07 jurov lmao https://github.com/robertfisk/USG/
16:08 jurov "The USG is Good, not Bad"
16:10 asciilifeform lol!!
16:13 * mircea_popescu waves
16:15 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624206 << lol, isn't he endearing ? why do you feel so guilty, yo! about to get married or what.
16:15 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:49 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624048 << feltbad, so wrote that stupid symlink and fs profiling tool that no-one wanted to do. results later. while at it: anyone knows if CLOCK_MONOTONIC has sufficient resolution for profiling? asciilifeform? allegedly - yes.
16:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624226 << you know, you have the most amusing penchant for asking questions you really don't want answered.
16:16 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:53 asciilifeform: wtf is 'dockerfs'
16:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624209 << more importantly, is it blocking ?
16:17 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:50 asciilifeform: that's slightly slower, looks like, than the old db..
16:17 mircea_popescu can i run 64 in parallel ?
16:20 Framedragger in terms of thread-safety, yes (but not in benchmarking tool as it's not using thread-safe posix functions, but then it's not writing anything, either). however, parallel performance not at all certain.
16:20 Framedragger oh wait, i was wrong re thread-safe functions. kernel takes care of that. has internal locking mechanism when dealing with fread/fwrite etc.
16:21 Framedragger that said, i'm pessimistic about this whole ext4 thing just like asciilifeform. no reason not to direct time into his latest proposal
16:22 mircea_popescu it ~should~ work, i ask because man who burned tongue on soup
16:23 Framedragger apparently calling fclose() while syscall is running on that descriptor in another thread is 'not a good idea' (outcome maybe platform/implementation specific), but that's an avoidable corner case.
16:24 Framedragger may be*
16:24 mircea_popescu interesting what people looking to push the whore learn about its substance.
16:25 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/zuleika-dobson-or-an-proper-love-story/ << Trilema - Zuleika Dobson, or An Proper Love Story
16:26 mircea_popescu ^ me heartily recommends, this fundamental novel of the republic, to the critical eye of all.
16:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << at some point you'll have to decide if you care or don't care about the old harlot.
16:26 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:54 asciilifeform: to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?
16:28 mod6 Framedragger: hey man, thanks! keep up the good work.
16:30 Framedragger mod6: thanks - was supposed to be busy with other stuff but this cute insane asylum is concerningly quite attracting :)
16:31 asciilifeform woah, fresh megatonne of mircea_popescu
16:31 * asciilifeform loads it into bed machine
16:32 mod6 ah nice mircea_popescu!
16:33 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << for posterity, re. those last stats, relevant time-measurement c snippet for reference: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/NxLwl/?raw=true
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16:33 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:54 asciilifeform: to rephrase, this would tell something useful if we had with what to directly compare it with -- what operation in ye olde bdb would this measure correspond to ?
16:34 asciilifeform neato Framedragger
16:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i did foreshadow.
16:37 asciilifeform aha, i recall
16:37 asciilifeform 'expect massive b00k later this week'
16:38 mircea_popescu the people who actually have to work for their accomplishments a la beerbohm would no doubt be quite upset.
16:39 mircea_popescu how goes mod6
16:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624235 << i thought this was entirely obvious, but yes.
16:43 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:55 asciilifeform: ... so that a 256-bit turd, e.g., 3ec455a2a84e978687a3990cec73f36b324fbd28e03603c6d9fc52018b001558, can be taken and matched to a block # where said tx lives.
16:44 asciilifeform all algos begin with restatement of the obvious (e.g. 'this adds two integers')
16:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624242 << this doesn't sound right. need more directory structure than just that wtf.
16:45 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:58 Framedragger: (yeah btw, just ftr, symlink *creation* under populated dir structure (`ln -s files_f1/block35461.txt dc/dc89c1f2b58909d3814b250a731a9b9b791b092759553e3ba6579ffaad3a7565`) is slow. however, the creation was done using shellscript, need to move to c to be able to actually profile with precision.)
16:45 mircea_popescu dc89/c1f2/b589/09d3/814b/250a/731a/9b9b/791b/0927/5955/3e3b/a657/9ffa/ad3a/7565.symlink
16:46 Framedragger so here's the thing, if folder depth is increased, the actual numbers of symlinks per directory will be basically ~0, as per those graphs from earlier.
16:46 mircea_popescu aha.
16:46 asciilifeform btw creation of just about anything is 'pessimized for' by konsoomer fs -- because it is the rarest case on 'typical system'
16:46 Framedragger but on the other hand this'd benchmark/test directory traversal more.
16:46 mircea_popescu aha!
16:46 mircea_popescu Framedragger i didn't intend any distinctiuon betrween "symlink resolution" "directory traversal" et al.
16:47 Framedragger kk as long as we're clear - i've seen those "but what would happen with 1000s of symlinks in single folder!1" comments so thought that should be tested, etoo.
16:47 Framedragger ah right right.
16:47 mircea_popescu btw, the usg is out in force advertising its ersatz bitcoin. "etoro" taking out google advertising on my own name (no doubt along million other strings) and so on.
16:47 Framedragger well, *in principle* deeper traversal should really not be a problem at all. in practice - guess we shall see
16:47 mircea_popescu quite.
16:48 mircea_popescu no doubt in my mind the selva selvaggia be deep and readily surprising.
16:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: etoro?
16:48 mircea_popescu some usg-approved "investment" scam.
16:48 asciilifeform denominated in, i can only guess, ethertardium?
16:49 asciilifeform or 0 relation..?
16:49 mircea_popescu "social trading brokerage". doing its best to eat the third world naivite.
16:49 mircea_popescu no, the bitcoin "etf" vehicle. give us dollars so we buy bitcoin "For you" thing.
16:49 asciilifeform iirc human names are not trademarkeable in usgdom, they can take out ads on you, me, mod6 , et al. whateverses.
16:50 asciilifeform they can always say 'ooh we meant ~this other~ mp'
16:50 mircea_popescu ah, i don;t particularly care. anyone googling me who ends up on etoro deserves his punishment.
16:50 mircea_popescu just pointing out, they've been spending by the million/day in hitler notes for the past week with this nonsense.
16:50 asciilifeform lulzy
16:50 mircea_popescu quite
16:51 mircea_popescu not unlike tv advertising to my chained girl, "a better life". really ? i think if she wanted that "better" she'd have found her way by now.
16:51 asciilifeform i guess some bean counter decided that this gambit has higher ev ~in btc~ than , e.g., nsa mining
16:51 mircea_popescu that is certain. the nsa is fast losing the tech battle.
16:51 asciilifeform 'let's run our own pirate'
16:51 mircea_popescu +/-
16:52 asciilifeform kinda disgraceful, not like there isn't a usg 15nm fab or two still standing in upstate new york
16:52 asciilifeform could make miners, instead of whatever arse-penetrating radar controller golden toilet rubbish. for just one or two shifts.
16:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624243 << does the lady know your only true love is strange addressing schemes ?
16:52 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:59 asciilifeform: now you store the table as follows: the top 32 bits (e.g., 3ec455a2 from above) are an array index into this table
16:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's literally the simplest physically possible scheme, read whole thread. (it is also NOT married to the 'magic numbers.')
16:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform usg really can't make anything. you're basically saying "siliconed botoxed cali chick could cook a decent meal." of course she could. of course she won't.
16:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i have to protest re the scheme. i'm merely needling you in my spare time.
16:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i am not a psychiatrist, do not specialize in 'patient has arms, legs, nerves are fine, but he won't move'em'
16:54 mircea_popescu myeah.
16:54 mircea_popescu yet move - he won't.
16:54 asciilifeform this, if it was a mystery in 2014, is plainly visible today imho
16:54 mircea_popescu i said years back the race is won. but meanwhile the usg utterly lost it, ot little concern of anyone, itself included.,
16:54 mircea_popescu the race is on*
16:56 asciilifeform ( speaking of golden toilet, factory sent me a gold-plated ruler! complete with drill guide. -- yes, made of finest pcb . for lulz. )
16:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624254 << there are habits that die easy and habits that die hard.
16:56 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:02 trinque: oh jesus docker Framedragger
16:57 mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y << spare time.
17:00 asciilifeform lul
17:00 mircea_popescu possibly their best.
17:06 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624149 << this is a hosting co in hk, and domain peddler. betcha ~all~ of their shithosting offerings, are debianized.
17:06 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 13:58 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/83747C8EA3613D6D3DEEEDE006197672FCB135ABA18188DB332E25098C44C765 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1650...4657 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '202.130.103.22 (ssh-rsa key from 202.130.103.22 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (wtt22.smartinfo.com.hk. HK)
17:08 mircea_popescu prolly.
17:11 mircea_popescu and in other news, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtnTaUcMLjA
17:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624278 << this blowing seems altogether a foregone conclusion.
17:16 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:10 asciilifeform: if you're willing to blow another 16GB, you can have an l2 table
17:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624290 << contiguity is the big problem. perhaps it can be resolved through "alternative starvation', as in, running naught else. but that is liable to run into the genius of "dwim" "modern" linuxhit
17:17 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:14 Framedragger: i'm not sure if you do need driver
17:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624297 << this sounds like a quite elegant solution, yes.
17:18 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:16 asciilifeform: the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array
17:18 Framedragger mircea_popescu: but if you read further down, we were saying that it may be possible to just access a raw block device without kernel module :)
17:19 mircea_popescu meh.
17:19 Framedragger not that it's necessarily the way to go. but consider what asciilifeform was saying - one could just pass an already-opened file handle. handle to *whatever*. no ring0 driver, no root permissions.
17:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624307 << it is the case, one collision a year sort of deal./
17:19 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:19 asciilifeform: it is statistically possible that we don't even have ONE collision yet
17:19 Framedragger (or, use linux cap to allow raw access, but that's maybe meh)
17:20 mircea_popescu Framedragger it sounds great on paper and then crashes irrecoverably six weeks in.
17:21 Framedragger if you have shitty code, you have shitty code. shitty code in kernel wreaks more havoc.
17:21 mircea_popescu the noion that hdd is usable or useful is a cute pipe-dream of the web generation, unsupported in cold reality.
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17:21 Framedragger but yeh, maybe more exposure to userspace shite if not driver - maybe
17:21 * Framedragger hears wind swoosh as goalposts shifted at c velocity
17:21 mircea_popescu it's more the case that those 10k lines of ??? actually contain the mystery bullshit that makes the whole pile of crap evern work.
17:22 Framedragger mircea_popescu: (i thought with "sounds great on paper" you were responding to possible kernel module workarounds. but if you're against the *whole* idea, fair enough.)
17:22 mircea_popescu i don't think anyone correctly represents the tower of accidental good luck that stands between a disk seek and your desired pron.
17:22 Framedragger for schizzle.
17:23 mircea_popescu im not against the idea in the slightest. i'm just very unpersuaded by the theory hard drives work, to any spec, in any sanemanner.
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17:23 mircea_popescu dispensing with the kernel's accumulated gunk comes at no cost to the wizard, but at disability to anyone else.
17:25 Framedragger kernel driver would work around userland fs specific stuff. but certainly not against disk seek, disk cache, etc. just to clarify
17:25 Framedragger (and yah i'm sure there's lots of crud in the former worth dropping..)
17:25 mircea_popescu afaik it bundles a lot fo that in
17:25 mircea_popescu ,m
17:25 * mircea_popescu has seen architerctures where there were de facto 3 different disk caches
17:26 Framedragger ah, you're probably right. lots of fs-specific cache madness, too
17:27 Framedragger the wonder!
17:28 mircea_popescu yea
17:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624352 << this is a major part of the savings in fsdb
17:32 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:36 asciilifeform: that is, you don't need 8 bytes to say which 4kB slice has the beginning
17:33 mircea_popescu because yes, alf is entirely correct, the hdds piss out 4kb or more per call
17:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624365 << quite so.
17:34 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:43 asciilifeform: imho the 'hard part' is not even to implement this table, it is freshman homework, but to unravel the liquishit in trb and learn where to even put the lookup/write !
17:36 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> how goes mod6 << eh, it goes. getting ready to release V 99994 here soon. mom was diagnosed with stage 4 small cell cancer about 6 weeks ago -- so that's been pretty intense.
17:36 mircea_popescu o.o
17:36 mod6 ikr. :/
17:36 mircea_popescu that's not good.
17:36 mircea_popescu 1 in 10 shot or what.
17:37 mod6 3-6mo.
17:37 mircea_popescu some do survive it. but myeah.
17:37 mod6 with chemo... could be 8-12. we don't think we'll do chemo tho. don't see much of a point.
17:38 mircea_popescu did she smoke ?
17:38 mod6 like a chimney. still does.
17:38 mircea_popescu yeah. well...
17:38 mod6 'tis what happens.
17:41 mircea_popescu sorry to hear.
17:41 mod6 Thanks Sir. Me too.
17:42 mod6 On a brighter note, about to setup a new trb node this weekend outside of aws. So that's awesome.
17:43 mircea_popescu yeah srs.
17:44 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624297 << this sounds like a quite elegant solution, yes. << yeah, nice idea here. all of this is very exciting.
17:44 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:16 asciilifeform: the Right Thing would probably be to have a very simple kernel driver that takes a specially-marked disk partition and gives userland trb linear use of it, as plain array
17:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624370 << god help us.
17:44 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 17:46 asciilifeform: or, for instance, what is ReadDiskTx .
17:44 diana_coman mod6, so sorry about that
17:44 Framedragger mod6: damn man, very sorry to hear that.
17:44 Framedragger bitcoin-out-of-the-cloud ftw.
17:44 mod6 diana_coman, Framedragger: thanks
17:44 mod6 <3
17:46 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624374 < heh. though this be a taller order than meets the eye.
17:46 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:01 trinque: god forbid the disk always be in a coherent state, eh?
17:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624375 << confirmed, this is safe. just don't issue the -0 before it hd a chance to settle down.
17:47 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:01 asciilifeform: trinque: i've found that 'kill', which syncs the db, followed by kill -9, which nukes shitoshi's pointless wait idiocy, worx 100%.
17:47 mircea_popescu -9*
17:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624381 << very much so. reminiscent of ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603
17:48 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:02 asciilifeform: (some time grep for the sleeps, it is instructive)
17:48 a111 Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
17:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624395 << your emulator stil lsucks what can i tell you. ai winter!
17:51 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:12 asciilifeform: ( i can already picture mircea_popescu spitting out his breakfast, 'modern hdd dun have cylinder, you nut' -- except, it in effect DOES, fetches massive blox , whether mechanical or ssd, by design, for ages now )
17:52 mod6 heheh
17:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624406 << they try; but yeah hehe.
17:52 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:17 asciilifeform: do the arithmetic, it isn't as if anyone can cancel the 'block per 10min' thing.
17:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624413 << this truly isn't a concern.
17:56 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:20 asciilifeform: at any rate, working around this idiocy would be very cheap -- say we index by top32 of keccak(txid) instead of plain txid. in the event of.
17:56 mod6 perhaps not. i like that we're thinking about things like this though.
17:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624417 << this is not accountable in dollars.
17:56 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:24 Framedragger: while at it, and i'm guessing it's in the logs.., i wonder when was the last time some tried to come up with an approximation what the costs to get to >50% network hashing power would be
18:01 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624420 <<->> http://trilema.com/2013/things-that-matter-these-days-things-that-dont-matter-these-days/#footnote_3_50058 2013.
18:01 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:24 asciilifeform: Framedragger: there was old thread with mircea_popescu , where he stated that usg and china attempted it at same time, and perma-deadlocked
18:03 Framedragger > 1 government, fair point
18:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624436 no guarantees, but likel;y, yeah/
18:03 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:33 asciilifeform: (~guaranteed at 80 or so)
18:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624446 << there may be a lot of merit in this. even l1-l4 implemented via kernel table may be faster than freestanding l1 with "occasonal" (to be defined) cache miss aka collision.
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18:06 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:40 asciilifeform: you can use x64's page table to 'cheat' and store a sparse form !
18:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624468 << very much this.
18:09 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 18:57 asciilifeform: i'd like to think of an elegant solution to this
18:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624481 << you can most assuredly cheat by you know, virgin hdd. but kludge of kludges and metatronium nonsense besides.
18:10 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:11 asciilifeform: ( i wonder if there are any traditional fs that will actually give you 16G of contiguous blocks, if asked nicely )
18:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624496 << experimentally this is almost never above 50%
18:11 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:19 asciilifeform: for completeness, i will note that you can model any 'whole disk' variant with an enormous flat file, in userland, at some speed penalty.
18:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624508 << you also need a guarantee against being "slow" (term of art)
18:13 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: all you need is to check a read candidate against the current list of active writes.
18:15 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624681 << fwiw i've used raw hdd for actual work.
18:15 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 22:21 mircea_popescu: the noion that hdd is usable or useful is a cute pipe-dream of the web generation, unsupported in cold reality.
18:15 asciilifeform if you just need to store linear array of blox -- nothing beats raw hdd. fuck fs.
18:17 mircea_popescu myeah
18:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624688 << if you're thinking of the iron failing -- i operate disks in raid5 (and for past couplea years -- raid5 of ssd; on this particular box in this particular room, for instance, 4 x 1tb ssd) : 0 detectable failures-with-loss of any kind.
18:18 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 22:23 mircea_popescu: im not against the idea in the slightest. i'm just very unpersuaded by the theory hard drives work, to any spec, in any sanemanner.
18:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624512 << rebalancing the tree is actually a terrible idea for bitcoin block storage.
18:19 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: but not right tool for ~this~ job
18:19 mircea_popescu because any arbitrart hash has equal chances to be seen as next hash as any other.
18:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha! which is why i published an algo with 0 rebalance, today.
18:19 mircea_popescu this is exactly contrarty to the engineering assumption in "balancing"
18:20 asciilifeform (i sat down with the ext4 thing and very quickly came to the conclusion that it, and every other konsoomer fs, is 'pessimized' for our specific scenario)
18:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, no, nothing of the kind. i was contemplating no hardware whatsoever, just the tower of crud that builds up to consumer fs
18:20 Framedragger ftr i didn't every say it was the right thing for bitcoin with uniformly distributed hashspace
18:20 mircea_popescu the rebalancing above a fine examplke of the fundamental problems.
18:20 mircea_popescu "your kink is not my kink"
18:20 mircea_popescu Framedragger yeah that's exactly it, the distributions
18:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624517 << don't knock it too much, bunny-hop fuck-chair is fine tool for she who for the first time took her clothes off in public today.
18:21 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:34 asciilifeform: Framedragger: i am increasingly finding that 'general purpose db' is, like the infamous 'vise-grip', The Wrong Tool For Every Job
18:22 mircea_popescu that nobody else uses it... well.
18:22 mircea_popescu there's still a lot of noobs.
18:23 Framedragger (also just for poterity it's not like you can't tell a decent db which indexing mechanism it should use. but i agree with main 'general tools are ~meh' sentiment)
18:24 mircea_popescu there is no practical way to tell postgresql to do slave reads ; nor any way to tell ~any db to do unbalancing btree stores.
18:24 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624751 << ben_vulpes actually went off to calculate it, empirically!, earlier today, lessee what he comes back with
18:24 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 23:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624446 << there may be a lot of merit in this. even l1-l4 implemented via kernel table may be faster than freestanding l1 with "occasonal" (to be defined) cache miss aka collision.
18:24 mircea_popescu this theory of yours crashes on the jagged shores of a meaner reality.
18:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in any case this is turning into QUITE the course on caching!
18:25 asciilifeform ( he asked 'what do' and i answered 'take all tx, from first to top of currentheight, and count how many share their senior 32bit )
18:25 mircea_popescu compare and contrast with the mit offering.
18:26 asciilifeform soon we find out 'how many shared birthdays'
18:27 asciilifeform btw it may even be worth taking top 32 and bottom 32 and comparing (fuck knows, sha(sha(x)) could produce different ! distribution, for no entirely good reason, for each )
18:27 Framedragger also just ftr, a b-tree by definition has every part of it be of the same depth. 'unbalancing b-tree' doesn't even make sense. but you could have 'just a normal tree', and one can implement custom indices. just pointing out
18:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624528 << and this not worth doing, either, because just do p when it comes out and be done with it
18:27 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:38 asciilifeform: trinque: then i'll need a cl pgp parser
18:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha, i started at one point to do it, and realized 'wtf why'
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18:28 mircea_popescu Framedragger i just meant "don't fucking rebalance my tree, behind the scenes, idiot!"
18:28 mircea_popescu (they do this, and they think they're smart for it, too.)
18:28 Framedragger right right :)
18:29 Framedragger ACID is not a bad idea yknow. i wonder if you could accomplish what you wanted with dirty slave reads via streaming replication or sth. but, eh. bbl, food
18:29 mircea_popescu psssh.
18:30 Framedragger (ya i know you pissed on it)
18:30 mircea_popescu acid is not a bad idea in the sense "valentine's day" is not a bad idea.
18:30 Framedragger more sex. more sex on acid. checks out.
18:31 mircea_popescu if you have no relationship with your whore, it will provide some anchor for pointless, idle pretense while you "focus on your career"
18:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624534 << word, exactly.
18:32 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 19:39 trinque: we'll make a CL lib for p
18:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624551 << these are actually pretty encouraging as such
18:34 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 20:31 Framedragger: some (very initial) symlink stats - more stuff will have to wait - given a "here are 1mn 'transactions' which symlink to files, resolve links and read from linked files in random order for 100mn times" setup, with one-folder-deep structure, like so: "simple_f1/e5/e5edc34c57d5ea2ea99cfe16d04655aa000c3d7f268022d2b21f95928fa34674 -> /files_f1/99997.txt", most basic stats are:
18:34 mircea_popescu fopen() times given 100000000 iterations: min = 1761 ns, max = 1506074 ns, avg = 2326.51 ns, << holy shit what.
18:34 mircea_popescu incidentally what is your ns counter method ?
18:34 mircea_popescu and what the fuck caused that outlier.
18:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: he posted the method, in the end of the thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624601
18:35 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 21:33 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624229 << for posterity, re. those last stats, relevant time-measurement c snippet for reference: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/NxLwl/?raw=true
18:35 mircea_popescu ah shall get to it
18:35 asciilifeform and these outliers are always caused by a) interrupt b) cache miss
18:35 BingoBoingo Sorry to hear mod6, keep coming back
18:36 asciilifeform aha, hats off to mod6
18:36 mircea_popescu lol jurov cute
18:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform always worth hounding down in my experience.
18:37 mircea_popescu time_elapsed_nanos = timer_end(time_init); << trhis is ns precision now ?
18:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: his fopen() is smaller than a princely ssd's seek time. so thereby i could tell, his measurements had cache in play
18:38 mircea_popescu i do not trust his clock ; seems to be accurate within a few ms at best.
18:38 Framedragger struct timespec timer_start() {
18:38 Framedragger struct timespec start_time;
18:38 Framedragger clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, &start_time);
18:38 Framedragger return start_time;
18:38 Framedragger }
18:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i hate to break this sad noose, but nothing on a konsoomer pc is accurate to ns
18:38 asciilifeform ever.
18:38 mircea_popescu right.
18:38 asciilifeform us -- IF you're lucky
18:38 mircea_popescu right.
18:38 mircea_popescu Framedragger you didn't measure anything mah boy!
18:38 Framedragger allegedly this is what folks use for high precision profiling. i checked and wrote trivial version of that. but yah, clock_gettime()
18:38 * asciilifeform has thought about installing a rubidium clock
18:39 mircea_popescu Framedragger consider using the recently discussed clocking method
18:39 Framedragger now they gonna talk about how one cant measure anything and need phuctor-made superclocks. kk. sure. but this is as accurate as it gets, sir
18:39 * Framedragger will read later, food
18:39 Framedragger what do you suggest, time()
18:39 asciilifeform Framedragger: try rdtsc
18:39 Framedragger ah that i've heard of. not without its problems iirc
18:40 Framedragger !# rdtsc
18:40 asciilifeform best you get on x86.
18:40 mircea_popescu no no, where the fuck is it
18:40 Framedragger !#srdtsc
18:40 Framedragger !#s rdtsc
18:40 a111 3 results for "rdtsc", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=rdtsc
18:40 mircea_popescu the people doing key extraction
18:40 asciilifeform literally, it dun get no better on x86, than it
18:40 asciilifeform it's just a register that increments with every tick of the main clock.
18:40 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541639
18:40 a111 Logged on 2016-09-14 12:01 Framedragger: "rdtsc is not guaranteed to be available on every CPU, or to run at a constant rate, *or be consistent between different cores.*" (emphasis mine). `get_cycles()` is recommended, but from cursory look it seems that on some architectures it uses rdtsc internally? madness.
18:40 asciilifeform if your cpu dun have rdtsc, throw it out.
18:40 asciilifeform srsly.
18:40 Framedragger and alf responded to me then, actually - http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541702
18:40 a111 Logged on 2016-09-14 13:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-14#1541639 << not only is this true, but you won't be seeing scientifically accurate nanosecond timing in a konsooomer box at all. the physical clock is not up to it.
18:41 Framedragger but yah fair enough may as well try
18:41 asciilifeform if it dun run at a constant rate: a) adjust your bios b) if fails, Throw it out!!
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18:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-06#1622520 <<<
18:41 a111 Logged on 2017-03-06 17:22 mircea_popescu: the guys did actually splendid work, read the paper, worth it.
18:41 Framedragger that said, CLOCK_MONOTONIC ain't bad.
18:41 mircea_popescu use an incrementor.
18:41 mircea_popescu better clock than ~anything the kernel exposes, is the sad truth\
18:42 Framedragger incrementor where, in another thread so that one may have more context switches for fun? those calls are blocking..
18:42 mircea_popescu hm
18:42 mircea_popescu they are blocking aren't they
18:42 Framedragger i actually did check what was available before deciding on clock measurement yknow. but yah, need to try rdtsc
18:43 asciilifeform rdtsc is the ticket, it is how profilers time, and the only timer that is really worth twopence on x86.
18:43 mod6 <+BingoBoingo> Sorry to hear mod6, keep coming back <+asciilifeform> aha, hats off to mod6 << thank you, Gentlemen.
18:43 Framedragger yeah
18:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform actually are dma calls cpu blocking ?!
18:43 asciilifeform it resets on coldboot and increments with every tick thereafter
18:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no, whole point is to copy from bucket a to b w/out using cpu
18:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: (whole point of dma controller)
18:43 mircea_popescu right.
18:43 asciilifeform where in this mix do we get dma tho.
18:43 mircea_popescu still, on contemplation, hard to argue against rdtsc
18:44 Framedragger ..but if one wants to measure fs performance, he's stuck with syscalls.
18:44 Framedragger suresure.
18:44 mircea_popescu yeah. ok, ok. rdtsc.
18:44 mircea_popescu he's right too, that's how profilers time also.
18:44 asciilifeform btw if you have a 'modern' comp, you will also have bizarre variation in wall clock timings because of smm idiocy
18:45 Framedragger asciilifeform: i thought that's why folks use CLOCK_MONOTONIC? i guess the irony is that it's not..monotonic in the end, still. :(
18:45 asciilifeform (cpu will stop to do ??????, maybe pack key logger buffer for later monthly upload to obummer, and undetectably, but rdtsc counter still ticks, it is lowtech)
18:45 Framedragger (vs. those other options there)
18:45 asciilifeform this is why it is a lost cause to try to do high precision profiling on a laptop
18:45 asciilifeform ( it is handling smm routine many times per second )
18:46 * Framedragger running on barebones xeon (not docker) nao, fwiw
18:46 asciilifeform more or less everything post-2011 comes with nonempty smm.
18:46 asciilifeform (if you want to find out what's in yours, you can disasm your bios, can be quite enlightening)
18:47 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624795 << fwiw i have one written. it can do an equivalent of pgpdump, but knows only a subset of packet types. if there's any interest i can drive it towards a specific goal
18:47 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 23:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, i started at one point to do it, and realized 'wtf why'
18:47 asciilifeform phf: consider publishing, it could come in quite handy at some point.
18:47 asciilifeform (say, when we look for sha1 collisions in pgpland)
18:48 mircea_popescu ^
18:48 Framedragger asciilifeform: something about needing to discard 'invalid values' with rdtsc (even when set up correctly - apparently best to 'pin' particular cpu, etc etc..) oh god.
18:48 mircea_popescu it's iffy but not unusuable
18:48 asciilifeform Framedragger: link to who proclaimed 'invalid values' wtf
18:48 mircea_popescu steal profiler timer code lel
18:48 asciilifeform thing is foolproof
18:49 Framedragger http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19941588/wrong-clock-cycle-measurements-with-rdtsc don't kill me plz
18:49 Framedragger first answer
18:49 asciilifeform 'When Intel first invented the TSC it measured CPU cycles. Due to various power management features "cycles per second" is not constant; so TSC was originally good for measuring the performance of code (and bad for measuring time passed). For better or worse; back then CPUs didn't really have too much power management, often CPUs ran at a fixed "cycles per second" anyway. ...'
18:49 asciilifeform as i said just few min ago,
18:49 asciilifeform if this happens on your box,
18:49 asciilifeform and cannot be turned off,
18:49 asciilifeform !! THROW IT OUT !!
18:49 mircea_popescu heh
18:49 asciilifeform my clock runs at constant rate.
18:49 asciilifeform 24/7.
18:50 asciilifeform within crystal's temp variation.
18:50 asciilifeform (i measured. and you, also, oughta measure, this is the kind of thing to be aware of in a well-run household)
18:50 asciilifeform and it bugs me that the mobo dun have a jack for a rubidium clock
18:50 asciilifeform ( my fpga boards, the nicer ones, DO in fact !! )
18:50 asciilifeform and incidentally FUCKGOATS also has !!
18:50 asciilifeform you can plug in own clock !
18:51 asciilifeform 'power management' is for the birds.
18:51 mircea_popescu save the planets alf!
18:51 asciilifeform the box i'm sitting in front of, draws 300w. this is not much.
18:51 mircea_popescu THINK OF AFREEKA
18:52 phf beats an xl1201 by a margin
18:52 asciilifeform phf: aha. doesn't sound like a jet turbine either
18:52 asciilifeform (my 3620 certainly does )
18:52 * mircea_popescu just looked, he is drawing 3.5 kw with his boxen. this is before ac etc.
18:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i meant 1 particular box
18:52 mircea_popescu yawell
18:52 Framedragger i must write a short comedy screenplay for how discussions develop in #trilema. "i want to take a picture" ... ... ... [intense calculations of incident gamma rays to reclaim lost pixels in images] [furious rehash of late renaissance representationalism]
18:53 asciilifeform phf: you dun run your 1201 24/7 do you.
18:53 asciilifeform (have pity on ye olde caps!)
18:54 phf no no, i'm missing console at the moment
18:54 asciilifeform broke?
18:54 mircea_popescu lol Framedragger . you prolly should.
18:55 mircea_popescu anyone ever read http://trilema.com/2012/sorana-comedie-bufa-intr-un-act/ ?
18:55 phf no, just haven't shipped it. i've been waiting for some friends to do west coast/east coast drive, but those always seem to NOT happen when you actually need them. i can boot it to do remote x11 though, was configured with the assumption that it will boot blind
18:56 mircea_popescu it has the distinction of being fashioned ~entirely out of police blotted / da filings verbatim.
18:56 mircea_popescu blotter*
18:56 asciilifeform phf: yeah i'm not sure why a xl1201 owner would even need the console
18:56 asciilifeform (i reverse-engineered the kbd, pretty sure was the first to publicly do so and post on www, you can build converter)
19:00 phf amusingly enough genera's clx is missing some x code for rendering bitmaps. meanwhile clx got ported out, worked on by a dozen of different teams, gender pronounced and ~still~ that code is missing, with the same disclaimer
19:01 asciilifeform know what doesn't help ? people's habit of NOT POSTING JACK SHIT
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19:01 asciilifeform srsly, genera src was up since 2009, and I NEVER FOUND IT
19:01 asciilifeform despite looking ~monthly, ~weekly sometimes !!
19:02 asciilifeform because motherfucking 'people in the know' whispering like little girls
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19:02 asciilifeform instead of POSTING
19:03 phf https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/image.lisp#L1989
19:03 asciilifeform can i download phf's mac-patched, actually-builds genera somewhere ? or do i have to knock on a naugahyde-covered door in the bar from lsl and whisper 'ken sent me' and knock 3 times..?
19:04 Framedragger same parameters, averages a bit worse after fs cache and buffers are forced flushed: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4IOGa/?raw=true
19:05 asciilifeform Framedragger: that's still below seek time of the best ssd, you're reading from cache.
19:05 Framedragger (oh actually variance higher, too)
19:06 Framedragger hm really?
19:06 asciilifeform the worst-case is probably closer to 'reality on the ground' than the avg.
19:06 Framedragger maybe another caching layer is still caching, hrgh.
19:07 asciilifeform Framedragger: your hdd iron itself is also caching
19:08 Framedragger right, yeah, but the (really) random seeks.. i hoped to tumble it a bit at least
19:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624943 << can't argue with his point there.
19:08 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 00:02 asciilifeform: because motherfucking 'people in the know' whispering like little girls
19:09 Framedragger ah i noted this myself and forgot, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-06#1622466
19:09 a111 Logged on 2017-03-06 13:10 Framedragger: (just for posterity, other metrics say that consumer ssds seek average may be ~3ms.)
19:10 mircea_popescu Framedragger well you pared it down to ~2 caches, not so bad.
19:10 asciilifeform phf: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/Symbolics3600Keyboard.png and -- laboriously extracted empirically !! -- http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_keys.txt
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19:11 asciilifeform is all you will ever need to drive the kbd (which kbd? EITHER of the 2 that they made, i have'em both here, and though their design differs electrically, they both obey this protocol )
19:11 Framedragger ...yeah, i think that the proper way to do it then is to take entire disk, populate it with things to a high degree and (somehow) with enough spatial dispersion, and benchmark, and restart entire thing between benchmarks.
19:12 Framedragger ~maybe up for it but *that*'d have to wait till later
19:14 asciilifeform phf, incidentally, do you know that i blew MONTHS, if you add it up, possibly most of a year of life, sawing open 'snap4' genera in ida ?
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19:15 asciilifeform without knowing that the motherfucking source IS PUBLIC ?
19:15 Framedragger oh god.
19:15 mircea_popescu lol
19:15 asciilifeform motherFUCKing whisperers.
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19:15 mircea_popescu dude that is the saddest story...
19:16 asciilifeform if some unknown d00d had not written to me last night, even now i might be doing it
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19:16 asciilifeform (i came back to it regularly, whenever didn't feel like working on anything else)
19:16 asciilifeform since 2009 or so!!
19:16 mircea_popescu my heart goes out.
19:16 asciilifeform no, laugh.
19:16 asciilifeform google, for instance, managed not to find it ON SHITHUB
19:16 asciilifeform where it lay.
19:17 asciilifeform where it lies still!!
19:17 mircea_popescu here, have a girl in full regalia http://68.media.tumblr.com/038c5f274a5691b022e20d0c194b085f/tumblr_o2mzt8sLry1urlmkko1_1280.jpg
19:17 asciilifeform it was not on some obscure 13333337w4r3z in ru or wat.
19:17 asciilifeform SHITHUB
19:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform google is worthless.
19:17 asciilifeform yeah but this is a new low.
19:17 mircea_popescu tru
19:18 phf your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then
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19:18 asciilifeform i even mentioned it before... http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-12#1466172
19:18 a111 Logged on 2016-05-12 14:42 asciilifeform: (either that or the 'snap4' emulator source code)
19:18 asciilifeform and did phf bother to mention the public existence of src ?
19:18 asciilifeform nope.
19:18 asciilifeform i assume he 'assumed that asciilifeform knew' ...
19:19 asciilifeform phf: i publicly struggled with reversing every piece of smbx gear i could get my hands on. chronicled on my www.
19:19 mircea_popescu phf he has a strong case though. no blogs, no mirrors, jack shit. "oh we knew. github." cmon.
19:19 mircea_popescu it's not a defensible sharing of the power in any conceivable desing.
19:20 asciilifeform there is a long, rotten tradition here, mircea_popescu , ofthis
19:21 asciilifeform for instance, i struggled to find the genera source, and then YEARS later i found out that 'the whisperers' have been quietly passing it around
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19:21 asciilifeform and nobody thought to maybe tell asciilifeform , or even post on normal warez LIKE A MAN omfg
19:21 asciilifeform first thing i did when i got hold of it is to put on warez, worldwide, same day
19:22 asciilifeform srsly, folx, you passed around leaked winblows source, and nsa, etc, like it were candy, but not this ?
19:22 asciilifeform why not ?
19:23 asciilifeform yer more afraid of old ~defunct corp with 60k (look it up, usaspending.gov) than of riaa, mpaa, cia ?
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19:23 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538493
19:23 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 15:21 asciilifeform: and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.
19:24 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform is 'all-comer' ?
19:24 asciilifeform !!gettrust phf
19:24 deedbot L1: 3, L2: 16 by 8 connections.
19:24 asciilifeform mutual l1, neh
19:24 phf yes, but i can't speak for other "whisperers"
19:25 Framedragger i don't think he meant himself, but rather other, external wots.
19:25 asciilifeform Framedragger: some of these people wrote to me re the 3620
19:25 asciilifeform NOBODY mentioned the shithub
19:25 Framedragger well, that is pretty fucky and sad.
19:25 asciilifeform dks even mentioned the warez install cd to me
19:26 Framedragger lol, what can i tell you, sad state of affairs
19:26 asciilifeform even gave me an 'illicit' copy of snap5, when i bought a genera license for my usg lab at the time
19:26 asciilifeform but DID NOT MENTION the shithub.
19:26 asciilifeform Framedragger: dks , if you didn't know, is the last known paid employee of smbx co.
19:26 Framedragger gave illicit copy of same thing? uh
19:26 asciilifeform he sells (sold ? afaik he ran out.. ) all that was left to sell
19:26 Framedragger aha, mk
19:27 asciilifeform old lispms, and Official Copies of genera
19:28 asciilifeform Framedragger: it wasn't 'of same thing', it was just an x64 binary
19:28 asciilifeform no src
19:28 Framedragger yeah but that's what i meant by same, gave closed copy the source version of which was available (and known to him, presumably?)
19:29 asciilifeform Framedragger: tbh i have nfi if he knew
19:29 asciilifeform he knew that the alpha installer was on torrent, tho.
19:29 asciilifeform even laughed about it.
19:29 asciilifeform so probably knew.
19:29 asciilifeform anyway this is probably all anyone needs of this 'mean girls' film
19:30 asciilifeform but imho it is instructive.
19:31 asciilifeform and tells something about why to this day we don't have an fpga bolix.
19:31 Framedragger yeah. :( wow.
19:31 asciilifeform (for instance, in that YEAR i could have been making one. was quite inclined to, but didn't have the instruction set !!)
19:31 asciilifeform nor any way to get it.
19:32 asciilifeform tried 'humint' even. asked dks, for instance, to name a price (he wouldn't)
19:32 asciilifeform made friends with d00d who worked in ai lab, he gave me a working alpha (i was a student, and had $0) and FULL set of bolix docs. which i still have.
19:33 asciilifeform *had worked in
19:33 asciilifeform guess what, HE WAS NOT in 'whisperer' wot either.. apparently.
19:34 asciilifeform i seriously have nfi! what, all of you people thought 1) smbx has a commercial future 2) it will punish you for leaking (or reward for silence ?!!!)
19:34 asciilifeform srsly???
19:34 Framedragger they must have really low self esteem to require this kind of labyrinthine way of pretending to themselves to be real important nao
19:34 asciilifeform i have deeply nfi
19:35 asciilifeform it's one thing to scan schematics, and post, i forgive phf for not having gotten around to this chore (he proclaimed to intend it a year or so ago iirc) because it is a heavy labour
19:35 asciilifeform but how about POINTING to PUBLIC src omfg.
19:35 * asciilifeform bbl, frothing
19:42 phf the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.
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19:42 asciilifeform phf: this is proving my point.
19:43 asciilifeform also it boggles my mind, why is phf still buying the old iron, the instruction set's been out since '09... buy fpga board.
19:43 asciilifeform what's still in that treasure chest, that phf -- or anybody else -- wants?!
19:44 phf is that a legitimate question, or rhetorics for log?
19:44 asciilifeform legit
19:44 asciilifeform i can't speak for others, but my objective since day 0 has been to get that instruction set.
19:45 asciilifeform so the machine can exist again. forever, like commodore 64 exists. and not on 20 d00d's shelves,while the capacitors work.
19:46 asciilifeform nobody's gonna 'legit manufacture' it, phf , even if dks and that nsa d00d who owns him, do an 'official' release.
19:46 phf you're making a lot of assumptions, about goals and strategies of others
19:46 asciilifeform and yes this is what various reddit anons told me in 2010, 'we pray for LEGIT RELEASE!11'
19:47 asciilifeform phf: i have 0 idea of what is the goal of others. can only infer.
19:47 asciilifeform it, very clearly, is not to put the necessary info to rebuild the machine, out in the open asap.
19:47 asciilifeform it is very obviously something else. but what that something else is -- i am not privy to.
19:48 asciilifeform ( to go on the board of a rebuilt smbx co ?? i have nfi. )
19:48 asciilifeform anyway this thread is not a personal stick to poke at phf, but at ~all~ of the culprits.
19:48 asciilifeform they know who they are.
19:48 asciilifeform and imho oughta Feel Bad.
19:49 asciilifeform this includes dks, incidentally, who wouldn't even answer my mail after my lab closed down
19:49 asciilifeform much less to tell me about the magical shithub
19:49 asciilifeform after i spent 1k of own funbux, and 9k of usa's, in his shop.
19:59 phf fwiw, i'm not buying "old iron", and you'll know why i'm going there if you dig up literally the last set of pms we exchanged.
20:01 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624960 << http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-symbolics-ps2/
20:01 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 00:10 asciilifeform: phf: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/Symbolics3600Keyboard.png and -- laboriously extracted empirically !! -- http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bolix_keys.txt
20:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well... quietly.
20:02 mircea_popescu the problem is one of indexing not properly of publishing.
20:02 asciilifeform phf: oh neato, can you buy kbdbabel ?
20:03 asciilifeform also phf yes i recall why you were going. but in light of the instruction set being out... my mind boggles, why to bother with ANYTHING but fpgaization pronto.
20:03 asciilifeform srsly. what have all of you whisperin' folk been ~thinking~ since '09.
20:03 mircea_popescu fpga still cost moneyz yes
20:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: one of the necessary size, is about fiddybux eat. in qty1.
20:04 asciilifeform *each
20:04 asciilifeform can run with sram, even, afaik no smbx box shipped with more than 24M or so.
20:04 asciilifeform the entire machine would handily fit in my ~smallest~ fpga board.
20:05 asciilifeform just like nintendo fits.
20:05 * mircea_popescu has nothing\
20:05 phf i think the implication is that "whisperers" are so poor (being dirty redditors) they can't even buy a cheap fpga
20:05 asciilifeform i won't telepsychoanalyze phf or any other of the other folx. but i gotta wonder wtf was in their heads.
20:06 asciilifeform phf: if there is one thing bolix aficionados is not, is poor.
20:06 asciilifeform what's an 'ivory' cost, 3k usd? 4 ?
20:06 mircea_popescu phf so far i'm just trying to probe this crater, i have nfi what's going on.
20:06 mircea_popescu he does prima facie seem to have a point, just not altogether sure what it is.
20:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: since '09 or so i was one of very few people publicly interested in reversing the bolix gear. and apparently ~all of the aficionados, saw me as 'dangerous fool' who 'might piss off dks'...
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20:08 mircea_popescu is it ?
20:08 asciilifeform is which
20:08 mircea_popescu is it the case that's what they thought etc.
20:09 asciilifeform i don't have a cable into their heads, cannot say for certain what the cockroaches therein were doing.
20:09 asciilifeform can only deduce.
20:09 mircea_popescu but fwiw, i don't credit the "irreplaceable treasure" theory.
20:10 asciilifeform deducing not only from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625044 but from the few dozen comments when the warez came out
20:10 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 00:42 phf: the timing of this rant is amusing, because i'm flying out to dks's tomorrow. which is why last time we talked about it i ~explicitly asked you not to rant about this in public~. if nobody cares about symbolics proper, then people certainly do care about the fickle opinions of older men, who are sitting on irreplaceable treasure troves of smbx technology.
20:10 mircea_popescu sbmx is worth ~0 today, on its own merit through its own work.
20:10 mircea_popescu it is ~the inept old men~ that MUST care about ~our~ opinions.
20:11 mircea_popescu i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.
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20:11 asciilifeform ^^^
20:11 mircea_popescu let them fucking drown, maggots below the stinkiest whore.
20:11 mircea_popescu all. and their mothers and their daughters with them.
20:12 mircea_popescu the time for thinking them worth > price of christian burial was, maybe, at the latest, 2007. certainly not 2017.
20:13 asciilifeform i also suspect that the folks sitting on 4-10k worth of 'ivories' don't relish them suddenly being worth what nintendo is worth.
20:13 asciilifeform is possibly other reason why they did not care to help me fpgaize it.
20:13 phf well, we've established that whatever i'm doing in that space is avocation. so the "worth" is entirely subjective
20:13 mircea_popescu dude... 10k. a 1% of a real estate deal gone south. who cares.
20:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a 'rembrandt', was expected to go 'to the moon'
20:14 mircea_popescu phf the worth is always an objective, public matter. that you like inept whore / bad painting / whatever in your own livingroom does not make it worth anything.
20:14 asciilifeform and it's tru, the surplus 1201 was free (rubbish dumps) in late '90s, maybe 500 bux in 2000, but now costs 3-10k
20:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyone doing the rembrandt moon game has thousands of different ones, does not care.
20:14 mircea_popescu if cares, is approximately wigger in a different wig.
20:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the contemplated pathology is that of that ro d00d who owned ~1~ rembrandt
20:15 mircea_popescu yawell.
20:15 mircea_popescu ftr it's still not altogether clear to me what went on ; and bad indexing still parsimonious explanation anyway.
20:15 asciilifeform and, quite verily, they WILL be worth roughly their worth in gold reclamation, if fpga appears.
20:16 mircea_popescu maybe they simply did not grok they had item you wanted, it happens.
20:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: maaaaany years of 'bad indexing'
20:16 mircea_popescu yep
20:16 asciilifeform the ai lab d00d also had nfi that the source existed.
20:16 mircea_popescu that's the distinguishing feature of it - as many years as until you notice.
20:16 asciilifeform also i WROTE TO BRAD PARKER 4 TIMES
20:16 asciilifeform he never answered.
20:16 asciilifeform i wrote to motherfucking kalman reti, phf
20:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform here's the problem : your algo (talk to peaks) is provedly, and notoriously, bad for breaking out of bad indexing tarpit.
20:16 asciilifeform i wrote to him as a LICENSED BUYER
20:17 asciilifeform as a signer of a motherfucking 9k cheque
20:17 mircea_popescu gotta maintain network IN BREADTH (lol ben_vulpes !) to fight that problem
20:17 asciilifeform 0 reply.
20:17 mircea_popescu no matter all this.
20:17 mircea_popescu you know exactly what i'm saying. peak talk is no solution to bad index.
20:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i was answering, in extended form, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624984
20:17 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 00:18 phf: your approach to sourcing this info is by googling, while actually getting in touch with people who might know is derided as "whispering". while the content's been published and public since forever, those who follow along presumbly knew since then
20:17 mircea_popescu still.
20:17 asciilifeform i definitely was not 'limited to googling.'
20:18 mircea_popescu but you also did not cast a 10`000 whores net.
20:18 asciilifeform i dun have 10`000 whores.
20:18 mircea_popescu this is not germane.
20:18 asciilifeform huminted with own miserable body, every muscle of it.
20:18 mircea_popescu the solution to bad indexing is a lot of dirty nodes, not a few "l1" ones.
20:18 phf ^
20:18 mircea_popescu and this is a very important point, and cogent throughout, including re trb-i design
20:20 asciilifeform i wrote to more or less everybody who more or less so much as mentioned having heard of a lispm.
20:20 mircea_popescu nor do i mean it as a belittlement. obviously train runs on tracks, car runs on road but lower efficiency ; 4wd needs not road even worse efficiency etc. you are what you are -- but just so, the problem is what it is.
20:20 mircea_popescu keep yer cool with it.
20:20 asciilifeform wrote to the lmi d00d, convinced him to open the lmi sources ! successfully!
20:20 asciilifeform (which helped 0 with smbx)
20:20 mircea_popescu i'm not saying it never works!
20:20 mircea_popescu i'm saying you can't rely on it always working! cache misses are a thing, local maxima capture is a thing, whadda ya want
20:21 mircea_popescu not like you don't know all this, abstractly.
20:21 asciilifeform the thing that boggles my mind, mircea_popescu , is that quite a few of these people ~knew~ what i was trying to do, and did not want it to happen.
20:21 mircea_popescu eh\
20:21 phf i don't know anyone who has direct line of communication to kalman, short of dks, but brad parker is notoriously spotty at communication and 4 emails is ~simply not enough~
20:21 asciilifeform which would seem to run contrary to their professed aims.
20:21 mircea_popescu look, you're overintegrated.
20:21 asciilifeform phf: i was given him as a paid support .
20:21 asciilifeform worst paid support ever.
20:21 asciilifeform 0 answered mails.
20:21 mircea_popescu "see that chick at the table two over ? no don't look! yeah! so she knows i'm trying to get laid, and doesn't want me to get laid!!11"
20:21 mircea_popescu cmon.
20:22 mircea_popescu phf emails also basically suck. who even reads them. do they even arrive anymore ? etc.
20:23 asciilifeform picture this, mircea_popescu , 100% of d00d's income comes from pentagon, and he won't answer a .mil mail.
20:23 asciilifeform there exists 0 .mil spam.
20:23 asciilifeform it simply isn't athing, like there is no used chewing gum on the moon.
20:24 mircea_popescu tru story : i wrote to romanian minister of foreign affairs incensed romanian consul failed to answer my emails. turns out... clever spamfilter, woman was mortified.
20:24 mircea_popescu you know ?
20:24 asciilifeform i could, with difficulty, believe, sure.
20:24 mircea_popescu hey, it never occured to me, or them, until it occured.
20:24 asciilifeform but same thing happening, every single fucking time, all the way up to phf staying mum re the src.
20:24 asciilifeform it just melts my poor brains.
20:24 mircea_popescu hm
20:25 mircea_popescu phf why was it you didn't link him again ?
20:26 phf asciilifeform comes on very strong with the whole "i know" shtick, so i simply assumed that he knows what he wants to know.
20:27 asciilifeform i'll buy this, because i'd rather buy this than 'phf is afraid of smbxmasons revenge'
20:27 mircea_popescu ie never occured to you he never saw the link ?
20:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's such rank nonsense, the fuck would anyone care.
20:29 mircea_popescu instead, buy this : there is A COST to, eg, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623621
20:29 a111 Logged on 2017-03-09 02:12 asciilifeform: kindergartener knows
20:29 phf it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
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20:29 mircea_popescu different apparently from merely the momentary rhetorical issue.
20:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: does, e.g., http://www.loper-os.org/?p=52 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=53 read like work of someone who 'already knows all' ?
20:30 phf he's welcome, in his own words, to "go, implement". having read that code, i'm unconvinced that it's the "buddha's front gate" to a working lispm fpga
20:30 asciilifeform why would i buy the machine and haul it up into my flat to saw it open, if 'already knew all'
20:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there.is.a.cost.to.kindergartner.knows.device.
20:30 asciilifeform phf: you're quite right that it isn't. thing is an astonishing pile of gnarl. but all of the necessary info, is ~inside~ it, just like 'bitcoin' lives inside the rubbish of trb
20:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: may be
20:31 mircea_popescu is.
20:31 mircea_popescu you just, in my estimation, bit it.
20:31 mircea_popescu not that there's anything wrong with it, as a device. it's funny, even. but if man becomes his devices man misses out on things which, upon examination, man did not want to miss.
20:32 asciilifeform i did mention http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-07#1598449 for instance.
20:32 a111 Logged on 2017-01-07 19:02 asciilifeform: all i got, for the most part, is what is in the wall-o-deadtree manuals, and what i gleaned from reversing 'snap4' binary in ida.
20:32 asciilifeform was it possible to misread this as 'he has the src' ?
20:32 mircea_popescu unlikely, in light of this conversation, but yes, in light of the bias load.
20:32 asciilifeform i also uttered http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623406 for instance.
20:32 a111 Logged on 2017-03-08 23:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did describe earlier, having concluded a few yrs ago that it is cheaper, easier, moar pleasant, to cut appart 'snap4' emulator (i have a pc build here ~with debug symbols~, comes apart in ida nicely) than to suffer with nitric acid and electron microscope
20:33 mircea_popescu any one line is also passible of having been skipped / partially parsed and then silently dumped / etc.
20:33 asciilifeform sure.
20:33 asciilifeform and nobody ever put 'snap4' into the search box, to find out wtf it was.
20:33 mircea_popescu and yes, i understand how fucking petryfing and utterly enraging this is, "shit, wtf do these dorks sit on i need and they won't say"
20:34 asciilifeform well, for instance, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615635
20:34 a111 Logged on 2017-02-19 17:37 phf: i'm not sure, but i remember you have to put a handful of magic incantations to live fix clx on genera to make it connect to crapple's x11
20:34 asciilifeform now if phf dun wanna publish his src, whateverses, who am i to say that he must
20:35 mircea_popescu he might also not have a more useful clue than quoted.
20:35 asciilifeform but it's a bit rich to talk about a 'community' of smbx people that doesn't share with asciilifeform 'because it doesn't know'
20:35 mircea_popescu not like he's 65.
20:35 mircea_popescu there's no "smbx community".
20:35 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1496...4059 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ES CS VC)
20:35 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1390...8517 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ES CS VC)
↖
20:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually there is, it includes illustrious folx like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623419
20:35 a111 Logged on 2017-03-08 23:57 asciilifeform: this isn't the only 1 on the net, either, i found several, they bought lispms, one took hundreds of photos of himself 'hipstering' near it, then one final one where it (??!) burned down
20:36 mircea_popescu the "set of people who bought lispm" have nfi what lispm even is, on average.
20:36 asciilifeform and brad parker, very literate d00d who ported genera emulator to x64
20:36 asciilifeform and kalman reti, official maintainer, sent me -- a PAYING buyer -- 0 patches
20:36 asciilifeform and dks, and whole orchestra.
20:37 mircea_popescu and rms went to glbse "conference". and and.
20:37 mircea_popescu they're idiots, what.
20:37 asciilifeform rms, the talking mushroom, is not connected
20:37 mircea_popescu if they weren't idiots, they'd be here.
20:38 mircea_popescu person > 50yo, their brain likely isn't connected. to anything.
20:38 asciilifeform dks is ~90 yr old now
20:38 asciilifeform i forgive him all
20:38 asciilifeform but other folx --. 0 excuse.
20:38 phf literally none of these people are directly in my wot, and my interactions with them are as frustrating as yours. but with patience you can extract useful things out of them. yours and mp's conclusion is that there's nothing of worth there, well then!
20:39 asciilifeform phf: i can't speak for mircea_popescu , but i don't specialize in hasty conclusions
20:39 mircea_popescu phf my conclusion is built out of a lot of disinterest, mind.
20:39 mircea_popescu i truly couldn't care less.
20:39 asciilifeform if , for example, there are detailed design docs, or yet-nonpublic sources in there, phf is well justified in his continued skulduggery perhaps
20:39 phf i think there's a lot of general "couldn't care less"-ness going on all around. whisperers don't care about asciilifeform's plight
20:39 mircea_popescu ie, they may have proven themselves to you, but they have not to me. as far as im concerned, stroutsup = dks = tim swanson = leah what's her ass = etcetera.
20:40 asciilifeform but even so it's a bit rich , to silently watch asciilifeform considering to buy electron microscope, to get at WHAT PHF HAD IN HIS POCKET already omfg.
20:40 mircea_popescu i expect, yes.
20:41 phf asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source"
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20:41 asciilifeform phf: you can have for cost of postage !
20:42 mircea_popescu i mail to/fro russia all teh time ?
20:42 asciilifeform srsly, i'm not one of them weird folx who whisper around. phf can have the iron, or gpggram where to send.
20:42 asciilifeform also i never had any problems mailing to ru
20:42 asciilifeform this must be new
20:42 phf i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.
20:42 asciilifeform tru
20:42 mircea_popescu there is also that i guess.
20:42 asciilifeform sorta how i hand-delivered sample rng to c3
20:43 asciilifeform and anyway now that the bizarre kabuki re ' asciilifeform must not get the src !' is blown (is it blown ? or is there yet moar..?) maybe folx can publish, like sane people
20:44 mircea_popescu they will lose random single digit % of mailings inexplicably impredictably and irrecoverably.
20:44 asciilifeform anyway phf i meant american postbox
20:44 asciilifeform say where it wants to go, i'll fedex it, at own expense.
20:44 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/02831AAF0259AD51745CBD51091D0E7AD30A88584C00EFBFFAA8D60024DC398B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1631...9839 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.184.118 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.184.118 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
20:44 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/02831AAF0259AD51745CBD51091D0E7AD30A88584C00EFBFFAA8D60024DC398B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1424...1989 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '93.90.184.118 (ssh-rsa key from 93.90.184.118 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
20:48 phf i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it
20:48 mircea_popescu the mare whisperers. do horse porn with it.
20:49 phf our sole objective will be making all the asciilifeform's assumptions true
20:49 mircea_popescu even now, you understand this alfie, EVEN NOW there's girls spreading for random dorks somewhere notwithstanding you're looking for a girl just like them. and they won't as much as whatsapp a notification to you!
20:51 * mircea_popescu briefly imagines how a world like that would be, where he;'d get notifications of every vaguely eligible bachelorette on an hourly basis. good god what a terrible crapsack fit for sf.
20:51 mircea_popescu suppose in the future that's how it works, dating consists of about 5bn notifications ~per capita~ of "hey, x is about to go out with $randomdude"
20:52 trinque pretty sure that's how it works now
20:52 mircea_popescu oh ?
20:52 mircea_popescu holy shit, facebook does this doesn't it
20:52 trinque aha
20:53 trinque "such and so went to X and look here are pictures of them drinking bad booze in plastic cups"
20:57 mircea_popescu i even knew this! say eg http://trilema.com/2015/el-defloreador-tum-tum-tudum-tum-tum/
20:57 mircea_popescu (dude made fb event "i've deflorarated myself!")
21:06 asciilifeform phf: it just blows my mind, if random d00d had not tipped me off, i could handily go ANOTHER 8 YEARS of ida
21:06 asciilifeform and of electron microscope.
21:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if my cock were one of 10 in existence, and the chicks all knew, and still avoided, i would have to seriously wonder wtf, maybe it points in wrong direction, or i have dog's head, or what.
21:08 mircea_popescu yes, yes. i'm just being an asshole.
21:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is impossible, even on google, to look for smbx-anything without finding asciilifeform's www.
21:09 asciilifeform my pessimistic reading of this picture is that all of the folx who a) knew b) knew that asciilifeform wanted to know c) didn't tell -- were playing some peculiar power game in their heads, re 'access to the treasure trove', and how mean ol' asciilifeform wants to take this magic access and make it worth 0 ...
21:09 mircea_popescu sure.
21:10 asciilifeform and phf earlier was right, it is very difficult to clone the iron EVEN with the src
21:10 asciilifeform but picture how difficult, WITHOUT it
21:10 mircea_popescu alternatively, they a) didn't know (either item) ; b) didn't care ; c) didn't know they don't know ; d) didn't care they don't know and so folllowing.
21:10 trinque getting old and having failed is a thing.
21:10 mircea_popescu a large part of the problem being that in a "democracy" there's ~no incentive to behave in a less shitty manner.
21:11 mircea_popescu hey, they're free people self determination etc rite ?
21:11 asciilifeform aaaha.
21:11 mircea_popescu nobody ever kicks anyone out of a dinner for being vegetarian, why the hell would anyone worry what people think of him for not having done x thing de rigueur.
21:11 mircea_popescu diversity!
21:13 asciilifeform trinque: the interesting bit, and yes i drilled deeply enough through the dried gangrene to get at the pus, is that there were and remain people who enjoy sitting on the embers of dead smbx more than they want to see the tech come back to life
21:13 asciilifeform so long as they get 'feeling of power' from koscheiing on the embers.
21:13 asciilifeform this is the stuff dark ages are made of.
21:13 asciilifeform not the caliph stoking his furnace, no.
21:13 mircea_popescu listen, you will find ~same wherever you drill, old democrats, "russian engineers" active pre 1990, etc.
21:14 mircea_popescu old men are universally smelly in the same way.
21:14 mircea_popescu which is why young women dont' like them.
21:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually i find ~opposite~ with su engineers
21:14 mircea_popescu depends to some degree who/which you talk to.
21:14 asciilifeform for fucks sake, the guy who invented refal, is still active (or his son..?)
21:14 asciilifeform you can download refal!
21:14 mircea_popescu but this is a plain converse issue of "coffin liner"
21:15 asciilifeform fwiw all (afaik) of the people actually responsible for the managerial demise of smbx, are dead
21:15 asciilifeform so none of the now-living folx can have what to be ashamed of, other than their whispering.
21:15 mircea_popescu never as simple as all that.
21:18 mircea_popescu consider the point! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and he;ll just say a string with kindergarten in it".
21:18 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
21:18 phf asciilifeform: you've made a lot of unfounded assumptions. somehow everyone acts in bad faith unless they involve asciilifeform in their going ons?
21:18 mircea_popescu if you -ev people doing base work, you -ev your own future.
21:19 mircea_popescu and this is a general tendency, not just here. consdier $random example : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623902
21:19 a111 Logged on 2017-03-09 19:06 phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)
21:20 mircea_popescu why phrase it as this rather than plainly "i will" ? to place disincentive on others doing it ? (hey, if i do it he won't) rather than incentive (he's doing it, let me do it too) ?
21:20 asciilifeform phf: didja miss where i noted that i wrote to them ? and signed fat cheques to some of'em ?
21:20 mircea_popescu none of the self-harming behaviours of mankind are examined, or deliberately chosen
21:20 mircea_popescu they "just are".
21:21 trinque and if the nemesis is there in the mind even in people who are quite functional yet, what happens to an old failed man?
21:21 phf mircea_popescu: i noticed that here focusing on something is an incentive for others to also focus on it
21:21 mircea_popescu myeah. but nemesis quite is in the mind.
21:21 * asciilifeform bbl, meat
21:22 mircea_popescu phf entirely idle example, no more important than strand of hay, which is why chosen here, illustrates beautifully.
21:26 * phf nods
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
22:38 Framedragger oh lord. *creation* of seven-levels-deep directories (in the format of "6d56/a6f4/f1d5/67a3/505c/a7d0/9c72/6fff/e75e/a482/e36b/6b5b/7421/f9cf/e36a/", with last 8th level being symlink) takes a long time, and is also space-wasteful on ext4. to 'store' 1k transactions it takes ~0.41s and takes up 59M of space. this without actual symlinks (should be fast but should check later). *removal* is ~0.45s
22:38 Framedragger (with that, i bid goodnight)
22:39 Framedragger (would advise against deep folder structure assuming no concrete reason to prefer it. just-symlinks (+/-) seems better. but then not sure if to think much of fs anyway.)
22:41 Framedragger (~60k to store 'transaction' (excluding symlink itself)!! this is the price of deeper fs trees)
22:45 Framedragger (btw the 'creation' is not bottlenecked by python or w/e; straight syscalls and simple c, and the random hex generator is a small footprint)
22:45 Framedragger (removal is just `rm -r`)
22:53 * Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
↖
23:05 asciilifeform Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
↖
~ 20 minutes ~
23:25 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625206 << ceramica inteligente !!
23:25 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 01:35 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/6850990FBF120FDFEE3B833114382DD945ED65AEAA5BCBCCFFC82C391E34AE5E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1390...8517 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.81.115.100 (ssh-rsa key from 80.81.115.100 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ES CS VC)
23:25 asciilifeform ( didjaknow ! )
23:27 asciilifeform ( http://80.81.115.100 )
~ 29 minutes ~
23:56 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
23:56 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1145.0, vol: 34915.37432737 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1146.416, vol: 19122.32782 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1146.3, vol: 110448.15137048 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1117.7112, vol: 15252.86520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1145.0, vol: 9373.13416481 | Volume-weighted last average: 1143.70144271
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