Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-03-15 | 2017-03-17 → ↓
00:18 pete_dushenski in geert wilders news, his pvv (freedom) party is looking like it'll grab the second most seats in the 150-seat dutch parliament with... 19. crazy fractured system. italy / israel level. then again, these figures are "according to exit polls" which are worth as much as hillary "looking past the election". should be a lively night if all the dutch nate silvers get similarly thumped.
~ 45 minutes ~
01:03 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
01:03 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1245.64, vol: 4927.83216688 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1234.884, vol: 7233.92993 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1237.3, vol: 20023.39124335 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1150.295892, vol: 2884.93650000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1235.001, vol: 3420.12491942 | Volume-weighted last average: 1231.18823237
01:03 BingoBoingo Butt Trust In The Market
~ 3 hours 36 minutes ~
04:40 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627403 <<< pl0x to kindly point out
04:40 a111 Logged on 2017-03-15 16:12 asciilifeform: also if you have a consistent empty 4GB of memory, you can apply my cache patch (not yet an official vpatch, but it is a 1liner, ups bdb's cache to max)
~ 2 hours 47 minutes ~
07:27 mircea_popescu pete_dushenski yeah, bothared people that one.
07:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1627847 <--> https://archive.is/J8UvN#selection-747.2072-747.2153
07:30 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 03:55 pete_dushenski: speaking of verbotten ajakalates, d-tx jessica farrar has just proposed a draft law that would see "emissions outside of a woman's vagina, or created outside of a health or medical facility" to carry a $100 fine
07:38 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5430D04B21F3EE28C51D7E1867FF1BCCBE4E8BF96D45617959BA1E68E225521B << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 34085713 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '67.49.219.148 (ssh-rsa key from 67.49.219.148 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cpe-67-49-219-148.socal.res.rr.com. US)
07:38 mircea_popescu lolwut
~ 2 hours 12 minutes ~
09:50 asciilifeform in other noose : https://archive.is/rJh3G >> march 14: 'Amazon has removed three books that deny the Holocaust ... Robert Rozett, a senior official at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official memorial to Holocaust victims, wrote to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos last month calling for immediate action specifically regarding the three books. Rozett calls the move a “positive first step” which shows Amazon listens to Jewish groups that protest Amaz
09:50 asciilifeform on’s sale of these offensive materials.'
09:51 asciilifeform 'World Jewish Congress CEO Robert Singer thanked Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos for his action on Thursday . “We are also gratified to note Amazon removed numerous other Holocaust-denying items from its website. ...'
09:54 asciilifeform in yet-other but not wholly unrelated noose, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6podN/?raw=true >> mr.t's revised immigration order canceled by judge in... hawaii.
09:55 asciilifeform on -- get this -- 'separation of church and state' grounds.
09:55 asciilifeform didjaknow.
09:55 asciilifeform BingoBoingo et al ^ qntra ?
~ 19 minutes ~
10:15 mircea_popescu hardly.
10:16 asciilifeform hardly which ?
10:17 mircea_popescu the idle posturing of anon femstate hardly worth the mention.
10:19 asciilifeform mr.t did put himself in the buggery pose when he proclaimed intent to 'comply with judicial orders' or how was it.
10:19 asciilifeform so far no uppity judges on meathooks, afaik.
10:20 mircea_popescu eh, so called judge, so called state, interest wanes eventually.
10:20 mircea_popescu but yes, obnoxious indian on meathook. you missed last week ?
10:21 asciilifeform afaik every potus fires the previous one's prosecutors
10:21 asciilifeform and for some reason this one took ~2 mo. to flush
10:21 mircea_popescu the correct move is chaser piece about the situation of an unemployable 40something ex-da who can't find work now ; rather than indulging reboot of idle posturing
10:21 mircea_popescu we're not interested in pushing the "oh, here's a replacement cockroach". rather, insistent footage of cockroach corpses./
10:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i am by now convinced that once so-called judge corpses start floating on the east river your retort will be "so what, everyone dies eventuallyt and everything ends up in a river eventually". which is fine and great for you, but makes for HORRIBLE qntra. because it's so indescribably fucking stupid, and because it's so indescribably fucking stupid in the exact manner that produced usg.
10:24 mircea_popescu in any case, the republican narrative is "bitcoin classic failed", not "let's talk about the latest reboot of the idiot franchise". an' thats what qntra does.
10:24 asciilifeform all i got is the view from inside the anthill. where mr.t's buttons are in fact not connected to anything, because apparently even the lowliest judicial bureaucrat can 'suspend' all of his decrees for whatever fictional 'reasons'.
10:24 mircea_popescu mno.
10:25 mircea_popescu all you got is the view FROM INSIDE YOUR HEAD. because if i push you re anthill it'll immediately become obvious the last time you picked up a girl i nthe street was never, and similarily for any other quanta of interaction.
10:25 mircea_popescu evidently portion of that head has serious issues.
10:26 asciilifeform i dun recall ever claiming to pick up anything whatsoever in the street..
10:26 asciilifeform ( aside from coins on sidewalk )
10:27 mircea_popescu so how are you participating in the anthill ? gimme something. you... go on the subway and talk to people ? use cabs, talk to the drivers ? work in an office ? take the sluts to the campus and have them make out with random girls ? what, exactly, is the light illuminating this anthill ?
10:29 asciilifeform cabs. and at one point worked in dire shitholes of various descriptions. but what point is there describing any of it, mircea_popescu will still insist that 'none of it describes the Actual anthill, you gotta have a private intel agency of 10,001 cutthroat sluts to know Reality!11'
10:29 mircea_popescu understand how consequences work : you can't at the same time "oh, nobody even told be item from my field of interest" and "oh i see from anthill". either you do or you don't, and broadly speaking i guess you don't.
10:30 mircea_popescu hey, it stands to reason that poll of 10 is not as good as poll of 10k neh ?
10:30 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu had said 'you won't learn the mechanics of su collapse by reading pravda or decrees of politburo' i would grudgingly agree
10:31 mircea_popescu happens to als obe true
10:31 mircea_popescu now, if one ~already understood~ the mechanics, then one could have a lot of fun, and in the process also produce a lot of interesting commentary by reviewing ther pravda.
10:31 mircea_popescu but before, when one's trying to make predictions ?
10:32 mircea_popescu tell you waht : each one of the loser intellectual class, the people whose daughters ended up powering the first wave of fat-based cuntindustrialization (where you hydrolize people to get economy going, you know) were ALL avid readers of the pravda
10:32 mircea_popescu and in the same exact manner, "cynical" and "woke" "independent minds".
10:32 mircea_popescu this independent mind trick dun work so well in vacuums, most people aren't nearly imaginative enough to pull it off.
10:33 asciilifeform i won't argue ' asciilifeform knows Moar Fact from reading völkischer beobachter than mircea_popescu from spy network ', that'd be riotously stupid
10:33 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu is stingy re the concretes, and asciilifeform likes concretes.
10:33 mircea_popescu also not the main thrust here.
10:33 mircea_popescu again : the loser intellectual class of the 1990s su, those people who would have had the means if only they had the sense, those people who were in fact smarter, and in fact more cultivated, and in all relevant aspects save one more capable than the aparatchicks who stole the show
10:33 mircea_popescu all have this in common : they read and commented the pravda.
10:34 mircea_popescu bitterly, but distantly. ironically, if you will. self-awaredly "skeptical". this methodology does not work. it anti-works.
10:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there was a name for this, 'kitchen intellectuals'
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10:38 mircea_popescu yes, well...
10:38 mircea_popescu it dun work. why would i have qntra do it again ? i know it doesn't work.
10:39 mircea_popescu fucking female state doesn't get to set the agenda for the discussion.
10:39 asciilifeform this was actually what was in my head when qntra first appeared, 'why do this'
10:39 asciilifeform asciilifeform for instance went for years reading ~no noose at all.
10:41 asciilifeform 'female state' will go away when physically disassembled, not by effort of folx talking, for and against.
10:41 mircea_popescu has nothing to do whatsoever with "talking for or against".
10:41 asciilifeform has to do with the observation re kitchen intellectuals
10:41 asciilifeform or 'resistance through culture' in mircea_popesculandia
10:41 asciilifeform the folx who had 0 to do with disassembling su
10:42 mircea_popescu the ~only point of "organised female resistance" is that it de facto constitutes a lulzcow herd. they can be milked for lulz. that is the only utility, from obama to the last famished "evangelist" out there.
10:42 mircea_popescu and no, no physical dissassembly required. the moment the ~only response "worried woman" encounters in household is one thin layer of mockery backed by an endless layer of physical punishment, the su not only goes away but actually becomes impossible.
10:43 mircea_popescu which is how that transition worked, and how all other transitions worked.
10:43 mircea_popescu the path from empire to republic traverses the river of worry, and the bridge is made of qntra and qntra-likes.
10:43 asciilifeform this is not unlike to say that 'if the only response tumour cell encounters in the organism is an army of killer tcells, there can be no cancer.' well yes.
10:43 mircea_popescu which don't discuss "worry, for or against". they discuss "worry, lulz" and other things.
10:43 mircea_popescu yes.
10:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: not related, but gotta ask before mircea_popescu goes back to sleep, (believe or not) i just today noticed that duplicate coinbases actually existed.
10:48 asciilifeform and are cemented into the 'grandfather's pistol'
10:48 asciilifeform and that replacement of 'spent' tx is even permitted still.
10:49 mircea_popescu when's the oldest you found ?
10:49 asciilifeform november 2010
10:49 mircea_popescu they in principle became impossible at some point once people figured out this hole.
10:50 asciilifeform this is not an original discovery, there's a magic case for it in trb
10:50 mircea_popescu yes.
10:50 asciilifeform but it only applies the rule after certain timestamp of block
10:50 mircea_popescu dating from about mid 2010 if memory serves.
10:51 asciilifeform and the 'unless those are already completely spent' thing substantially complicates, if not prevents, a sane indexing scheme
10:51 mircea_popescu prototype.
10:52 asciilifeform so if you make a 'tx that has same hash as ANY known tx to date which != this tx' you have broken the pistol, forked from the old semantics.
10:52 asciilifeform * is invalid
10:53 asciilifeform if you reject incoming tx (in a block , in particular) that overwrites old 'spent' one, you have broken the pistol.
10:54 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0968 << the routine in question.
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10:56 asciilifeform the 'unless spent' is riotously idiotic, it means that a txid does NOT, even today, guarantee to uniquely identify a tx.
10:56 asciilifeform (making the id entirely worthless, and dragging in the worst of both worlds, you now ALSO have to remember the position. why not ONLY store the position ?!)
10:58 mircea_popescu yup
10:58 mircea_popescu this is at the core of the argument in favour of a trb-i implementation.
10:58 mircea_popescu and what is meant when people such as me say bitcoin's a pos and what it was meant when i told the power ranger tards to fix it or get killed years ago
10:59 asciilifeform it doesn't look to be fixable.
10:59 asciilifeform and i don't mean trb
10:59 asciilifeform i mean, the algos.
11:00 mircea_popescu hm ?
11:00 asciilifeform the way i read ln. 968, miners TODAY are apparently more than welcome to create a duplicate coinbase, so long as it is a dupe of a ~spent~ coinbase.
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11:00 asciilifeform (968 - 985)
11:00 mircea_popescu there's no way to avoid collisions.
11:01 asciilifeform there's 1 way -- if you send in an anything that collides with a previous ANYTHING, you are told to fuck off.
11:01 mircea_popescu other than the hope "they won't be many" (recall the naive oh, if we need we just add more digits after decimal ? hurr. you fucking don't.)
11:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that means there's a cap on total txn bitcoin will ever process
11:01 mircea_popescu and it's the fuck lower than 32bits.
11:01 asciilifeform sha256 gives you... 256 neh
11:01 asciilifeform where do you get 'lower than 32'
11:02 mircea_popescu well you'rte going to start getting collisions way before you used up every possible txid
11:02 asciilifeform there are not 256bits of seconds left of sun , even.
11:03 mircea_popescu still not a very pretty scheme.
11:03 asciilifeform will become a detectable problem somewhere around 128b's worth. also quite likely long past expiration date of planet3.
11:04 asciilifeform but let's for sake of argument suppose that : sooner. it is STILL moronic to STORE COLLIDING KEYS IN DB omfg
11:04 asciilifeform it isn't ever a solution, to anything !
11:05 asciilifeform keys motherfucking unique, ruat caelum.
11:05 mircea_popescu im not arguing THAT lel.
11:05 * mircea_popescu points out wholly disinterestedly at this point that the eponymous mpfhf allows for variable length output, and could be made to do say log (blockheight) bits!
11:06 asciilifeform it, and keccak, and probably other schemes
11:06 asciilifeform the neat thing being, that on Collision Day, you can retro-stretch all of the previous hashes
11:06 mircea_popescu now, i do propose that it is actually better to have undefined-sized indexen than to have colliding txn or "limited to x bits" txn count.
11:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform quite.
11:07 asciilifeform there is no such thing as an O(1) undefined-size index.
11:07 asciilifeform and it is NOT acceptable to have non-O(1) indexing.
11:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it'd be defined for periods.
11:07 mircea_popescu it's 64 bits until year 13500 and 128 bits from there on until year 1mn etc
11:07 mircea_popescu you know, just like unixtime works.
11:07 asciilifeform these, work
11:08 mircea_popescu yeah.
11:08 asciilifeform 'see 8th bit for whether you have ONE MOAR BYTE of crud coming your way' does not.
11:08 mircea_popescu im not arguing THAT lel.
11:08 asciilifeform right.
11:08 asciilifeform but possibly now mircea_popescu sees what asciilifeform meant by 'trbi is much EASIER problem than working-trb'
11:09 mircea_popescu oh, i saw.
11:10 asciilifeform also it is not clear to me that trb ever... worked, in the customary sense of the word. what, for instance, happens if you actually carry out the -- entirely legal per all known btctrons -- replacement of a ~spent~ coinbase tx ?
11:10 asciilifeform now you have mutilated the history. entirely legally.
11:12 mircea_popescu o btw asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WxOXa/?raw=true
11:13 mircea_popescu i suppose that was a hook intended for some kind of anonimization thatnever made it in.
11:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: got it !
11:28 asciilifeform sooo per my reckoning, you can have sane-trb-indexer, but now every tx gotta have a field for 'was replaced?' -- and if bit is set, indexer goes and looks at the collision table, the previous lookup now 'didn't count'
11:28 mircea_popescu aha.
11:33 mircea_popescu in other news, camembert, lomo horneado + boiled corn on the cobb, primo breakfast a++ would breakfast again
~ 24 minutes ~
11:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: also it is not clear to me that reorgs actually handle this case
11:59 asciilifeform a reorg will remove the overwritten tx entirely
11:59 mircea_popescu if it's not in the new chain you mean ?
11:59 asciilifeform aha
12:01 mod6 hm.
12:01 mircea_popescu well yes.
12:02 mircea_popescu do you mean, "it removes transaction entirely but it doesn't nor could correcty undo the damage to the ball of yarn" ?
12:02 asciilifeform aha
12:02 mircea_popescu quite.
12:02 asciilifeform it removes it from ~index~
12:02 asciilifeform now the proceeds of the old, spent coinbase, can no longer be spent
12:02 asciilifeform because their parent coinbase is no longer in tx index
12:02 asciilifeform they appear now to have dropped from mars.
12:03 mircea_popescu wait, how would a later tx make it in.
12:03 asciilifeform which later tx
12:04 mircea_popescu the one whose parent coinbase you discuss.
12:04 asciilifeform let's work example. say, for sake of argument, block 500,000 has coinbase B; 500,001 - coinbase C, C!=B; 500,002.
12:05 mircea_popescu aite
12:05 asciilifeform 500,001 contains a tx T1, that spent B.
12:06 asciilifeform now 500,002 can have coinbase B again.
12:06 asciilifeform now picture that this 3-block sequence gets orphaned.
12:07 mircea_popescu go on
12:07 asciilifeform actually no
12:07 asciilifeform let's picture that 500,001 and 500,002 end up orphaned, strictly.
12:08 mircea_popescu so restate. and also spare me specifications that c ain't b, obviously it isn't, if it were you'd call it b.
12:08 asciilifeform aite, let's from beginning:
12:09 asciilifeform block 500,000 has coinbase B; 500,001 - coinbase C, 500,002 : B again. now 500,001 and 500,002 end up orphaned. the reorg fires.
12:09 asciilifeform B is removed from the tx index.
12:09 asciilifeform now coinbase of 500,000 is missing from the index, and is unspendable.
12:09 mircea_popescu this is however not how it works in practice
12:09 asciilifeform what did i miss
12:09 mircea_popescu i suspect there's some crutch code somewhere.
12:10 asciilifeform i read the code, again and again, and it would seem like 968-984 is the whole of the crutch. and in classic nsa style, the comment misdirects the reader to think that the 'bug' was 'fixed'.
12:10 asciilifeform whereas it was not, but merely papered over.
12:11 mircea_popescu does it regenerate the index on reorg firing ?
12:11 asciilifeform well, lessee : http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#1028 :
12:15 asciilifeform they get queued for removal ;
12:15 asciilifeform eventually we end up here : http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0754
12:16 asciilifeform which it where it gets interesting, because the 'can fail' doesn't seem to exist in the code:
12:17 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/db.h?v=makefiles#0114
12:17 asciilifeform ^ do you see a check for previous existence here, mircea_popescu ? because i don't...
12:17 asciilifeform ( called from http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/db.cpp?v=makefiles#0352 )
12:18 mircea_popescu not right off.
12:20 asciilifeform even the comment on ln 756-7 is nonsensical, 'This is only possible if this transaction was completely spent, so erasing it would be a no-op anway.' in what universe is erasing the ancestor of a valid tx a 'no-op' ?
12:20 asciilifeform i suppose in the one where nobody revalidates the chain, ever ?
12:21 mircea_popescu gavin wasn't very high on chain validation hurr.
12:28 asciilifeform it gets worse:
12:29 asciilifeform say i walk in with a tx that spends the output of d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
12:29 asciilifeform now which one did i spend !!!
12:29 asciilifeform http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/91812#d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
12:29 asciilifeform or
12:29 asciilifeform http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/91842#d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
12:29 asciilifeform ?
12:29 asciilifeform they're both unspent !
12:30 asciilifeform what's the actual balance of 16va6NxJrMGe5d2LP6wUzuVnzBBoKQZKom anyway
12:30 asciilifeform is there even a consistent way to calculate it ?
12:31 asciilifeform the heathens think it to be 50 btc : https://blockchain.info/address/16va6NxJrMGe5d2LP6wUzuVnzBBoKQZKom
12:31 asciilifeform ( on what basis ? )
12:34 asciilifeform ( or, say, http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/91722#e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468 and http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/91880#e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468 )
12:35 asciilifeform did we have this thread before ? ( doesn't seem to turn up )
12:36 asciilifeform !#s 91812
12:36 a111 1 result for "91812", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=91812
12:36 asciilifeform !#s 91842
12:36 a111 1 result for "91842", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=91842
12:36 asciilifeform !#s 91722
12:36 a111 1 result for "91722", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=91722
12:36 asciilifeform !#s 91880
12:36 a111 1 result for "91880", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=91880
12:36 asciilifeform ^ apparently not.
12:36 asciilifeform unless it was in ye olde otc or whatever folx inhabited in the olden dayz.
12:48 asciilifeform another tickle : what'll happen if someone were to mine a block that 1) has a coinbase equal to one of these magical coinbases + 2 ) spends same ?
12:48 asciilifeform as i understand, it will validate, in trb.
12:49 asciilifeform .. or, hm, maybe not
~ 19 minutes ~
13:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: revisiting the boojum: block 500,000 has coinbase B. it was spent, many cities are built on the outputs, time passes, world forgets. yeas later, dr. evil mines a block ~600,000~ , now again having B. ( he does not need to know any keys for this, can just copy the tx. ) then he sets his minetron to start again from 599,999. succeeds in orphaning block 600,000 . reorg fires. B now gets removed from the index db ! and a
13:09 asciilifeform ll of its descendants !
13:09 asciilifeform world burns in nuclear forkocalypse.
13:10 mircea_popescu he'd be doing this by himself as block 60 (really, why all the 0s ? you need them for something ?) which doublespends block 50 won't be accepted by eg me.
13:10 asciilifeform the 0s represent 'future'
13:10 asciilifeform vs 'current' or past. but regardless
13:10 mircea_popescu yes yes
13:11 asciilifeform it doesn't doublespend 50*
13:11 asciilifeform 50* was spent, and per trb rules, garbagecollected from the index
13:11 asciilifeform it's a brand-new, legit coinbase, with same hash. entirely permitted.
13:11 asciilifeform then when it gets orphaned, it also nukes the original.
13:12 mircea_popescu from the index.
13:12 asciilifeform correct
13:12 mircea_popescu and then he wants to re-introduce original. but he can't. because doublespent.
13:12 asciilifeform there are no doublespends involved, just a massive bomb
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13:13 asciilifeform trb as it exists , permits a new tx having same hash as old, so long as old one was spent.
13:13 asciilifeform so nobody needs to introduce a double-spend for this horror to work.
13:13 asciilifeform the result is an arbitrarily long chain of beheaded tx
13:14 asciilifeform because their parent coinbase gets zapped from the index illegitimately
13:14 mircea_popescu mkay.
13:17 asciilifeform now for the practical consequence. what this means, as far as i can tell, is that there can exist -- may already exist -- chains of tx in trb, that cannot be walked back to a coinbase.
13:18 mircea_popescu let's see the practical consequence where you simmer the fuck down and stop oversignalling by a factor of fifty trillion ONCE!!! in your life! one ounce work ten bushels sky is falling good god.
13:18 mircea_popescu so. coinbase C1 part of tx T1 is included in block 1.
13:18 mircea_popescu later on the output of T1 is spent by T2 in block 2
13:19 asciilifeform ignoring the maturity rule, but sure
13:19 mircea_popescu even later on, coinbase C2 with same hash as C1 is introduced in block 3.
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13:19 mircea_popescu then, block 3 is orphaned. this wipes any mention of C1/C2's hash from index.
13:19 asciilifeform aha
13:19 mircea_popescu should dr evil attempt to re-mine C1 as part of T3 in block 4, this will fail, because T1 still exists in blockchain
13:19 mircea_popescu index or no index.
13:20 asciilifeform t1 exists, but is now 'martian', parentless
13:20 mircea_popescu the ~exact~ ~specific~ ~pinpoint-for-me-in-lxr-or-bust~ mechanism of this is not specified.
13:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's an absence, not a presence, of code, how do i point to an absence ?
13:22 mircea_popescu well, you can either try to replicate this, if you wish, irl, or else show a case in blockchain where it happened, after 2011, or else simmer down and keep digging.
13:22 mircea_popescu you got a good point, but it's just part of the story as-is.
13:22 mircea_popescu not that i'm proposing the insanity is sane.
13:22 asciilifeform probably will have to replicate it on a toy planet.
13:22 asciilifeform (solipsist miner.)
13:22 mircea_popescu you're welcome to do it any of the three ways, but rly nao.
13:22 asciilifeform is likely the easiest demo.
13:24 asciilifeform ( would have to fudge the difficulty on the toy planet, or alternatively remove the time parameter from http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0977 , but otherwise doable )
13:25 mircea_popescu altogether not a bad idea to make a set of test chains as per the tsting discussion last week. this can surely be both part of it and the incentive to do it.
13:25 asciilifeform iirc ben_vulpes set up a similar experiment ( lan miner ) a month or so ago, but i dun recall what came of it
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13:26 mircea_popescu in other news, http://static.tumblr.com/6939a00d5cc18ed5e74eba13001fc4d8/af3igoa/IGIo4hva2/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_652rvgdy65ssk0ocogg0w8c0s_focused_v3.gif
13:26 asciilifeform the imho most tickling part re the hypothesis, is that the symptom would not necessarily leave any permanent sign in the mainchain blockchain
13:27 asciilifeform it would instead manifest as one or more chains of tx that a trb node -- a particular one, that saw the particular magic orphan -- mysteriously does not want to spend the outputs of.
13:27 asciilifeform (will not accept a block where they are spent)
13:27 asciilifeform this could, potentially, account for some wedges observed in the wild. in theory.
13:29 mircea_popescu yes, but it was never verified in practice.
13:29 asciilifeform not afaik.
13:30 asciilifeform very much Open Problem
13:30 mircea_popescu now, the cost to mine a same-hash tx that is also meaningful other than garbage is not trivial.
13:30 asciilifeform you forgo the mannafromheaven from mining the block, aha
13:31 asciilifeform but it isn't hard to do otherwise, just recycle old coinbase
13:31 asciilifeform (take the tx verbatim)
13:31 mircea_popescu that will not wash because doublespent.
13:31 asciilifeform nope. you take one that's been spent.
13:31 asciilifeform coinbases all have input 0
13:31 mircea_popescu one that's been spent has been spent. ergo is a doublespend.
13:31 asciilifeform and are exempt thereby from 'doublespent because input was spent' rule
13:31 asciilifeform 0 is never spent omfg
13:32 mircea_popescu i'm sorry, you're trying to recreate a coinbase as in, miner subsidy ?
13:32 asciilifeform aha, the first tx in a block
13:32 asciilifeform the one that has input 0
13:32 asciilifeform and its script -- ignored.
13:33 asciilifeform whole thread was about these.
13:33 mircea_popescu okay. so basically you want a miner to mine twice to the same address. right ?
13:33 asciilifeform correct
13:33 asciilifeform as in the 2 linked examples on mimisbrunnr
13:33 mircea_popescu and this will ALWAYS resut in coinbase in this sense with same hash.
13:33 asciilifeform correct
13:33 mircea_popescu and also has happened >10k times to date.
13:33 asciilifeform see the links, it will become very clear
13:33 mircea_popescu now. a block with these gets reorged. ALSO happened 100s of times to date.
13:33 mircea_popescu so ?
13:34 asciilifeform so you end up with a parentless tx in the index.
13:34 mircea_popescu good for you.
13:34 mircea_popescu except no, you don't, not irl.
13:34 asciilifeform show me why not ?
13:34 mircea_popescu you're a fine gent, standing on a pile of "because so and so, the sky is falling." "well... i don't see it fallen" "show me why not!"
13:35 asciilifeform it doesn't fall, as such
13:35 asciilifeform you just have a 'i can't believe it's not bitcoin' rather than bitcoin.
13:35 asciilifeform can't show provenance for all unspents.
13:35 mircea_popescu so of these tens of thousands of same-hash coinbases, which were hundreds if not thousands of times reorged, which is the parentless coinbase ?
13:35 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628087 <<< C2 == C1 here?
13:35 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 17:19 mircea_popescu: even later on, coinbase C2 with same hash as C1 is introduced in block 3.
13:35 asciilifeform ^ this is a question that can be answered exactly , using a patched trb
13:35 asciilifeform it is going on the conveyor mircea_popescu .
13:36 mircea_popescu aite.
13:37 asciilifeform btw this thread is unpleasantly reminiscent of , e.g., asciilifeform's conversations with his elderly parents , re thebezzle. 'look outside, sky not fallen, not moved a centimetre, you idiot'
13:38 asciilifeform what's a bezzle if not a sky held up by invisible column of farts and nobody-would-think-of-plane-as-rocket.
13:38 mircea_popescu let's not get ahead of ourselves.
13:39 davout mircea_popescu: seems coinbase needs same address but also same extraNonce to compute to same hash, you probably overestimate the actual txid collision count
13:39 mircea_popescu davout possibly.
13:39 mircea_popescu unlike elderly parents, was giving benefit of teh theory.
13:46 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=0.10.0rc4#1670 << this is pretty great, prb turns 91842/91880 into a special case !
13:46 asciilifeform but 0 mention of any other pairs
13:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform actually look up that bip30 thing, it's related.
13:47 asciilifeform they cut out the time parameter, and replaced with this
13:47 asciilifeform so a prb user can be fucked during sync, so long as the fuckblock fed to him isn't numbered 91842 or 91880 ...
13:48 mircea_popescu it's actually how the whole "not match earlier nonspent txn" got added. the author is the death row inmate peter wuille.
13:48 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/mFrzM
13:48 asciilifeform https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki << found it earlier, prior to thread, but the lulzy bit is that their 'solution' is not a solution
13:49 asciilifeform 'Fully-spent transactions are allowed to be duplicated in order not to hinder pruning at some point in the future. Not allowing any transaction to be duplicated would require evidence to be kept for each transaction ever made.'
13:49 asciilifeform ^ PRUNING
13:49 asciilifeform motherfuckers.
13:50 asciilifeform prune their ears, nose, arms, legs, cocks.
13:50 asciilifeform ling-chi.
13:50 mircea_popescu yeswell.
13:51 asciilifeform it's a textbook mircea_popescuan tv-raft. 'can't fix the problem, That Would Be Wrong, have a raft made of your tv to float on;
13:53 asciilifeform astonishing how much retardation flows from this one little turd, the use of hashes (rather than positions) as tx pointers.
13:55 asciilifeform if you had to write, e.g., (91722,1,1) instead of (e3bf3d07d4b0375638d5f1db5255fe07ba2c4cb067cd81b84ee974b6585fb468, 1) to spend an output -- none of this would be a thing.
13:58 davout no more spending before confirmed then
13:58 asciilifeform davout: FUCK spendingbeforeconfirmed.
13:58 asciilifeform it is retarded and makes for 'orphanages' and O(N^2) verifications.
13:58 asciilifeform trb, i will note, already will not relay any attempt to spend anything not already in a block.
13:59 davout just saying, chill
13:59 asciilifeform unfortunately , per grandfather's pistol , a tx ~in~ a block can spend the output of another, in same block; so verification of block tx is O(N^2) but the N is the count of tx in the block.
14:00 davout i'm not sure i grokked your 'casks' scheme, but if i understood what i did correctly positions would somehow be pre-allocated for transactions, making this possible again, right?
14:00 asciilifeform davout: it doesn't even require the cask scheme
14:01 asciilifeform you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin
14:01 asciilifeform with the difference being, that you can ONLY refer to a position in an existing block, and never to a tx hash.
14:01 asciilifeform (which would only be calculated for the merkle root, and for no other purpose)
14:01 davout don't see how, as far as i know you can't craft a tx without providing the tx of its parents
14:01 asciilifeform ^ likewise it is unclear to me why to even have a merkle tree, and not hash the tx one after another. but that's a separate thread.
14:02 asciilifeform davout: right ! want to make a tx ? know the indices of the outputs you're using.
14:02 asciilifeform and yes that means they have to live in a block, that you're reasonably sure won't be orphaned.
14:02 asciilifeform tough cookies.
14:03 trinque seems like blocks because they're otherwise makework to have block reward in while empty
14:03 davout i don't particularly care, just wondering about "you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin"
14:03 asciilifeform davout: you can !
14:03 asciilifeform simply by not catering to the patently idiotic expectation of being able to spend the output of a tx that hasn't been mined yet.
14:06 davout you can't have this in bitcoin is all i'm saying
14:07 asciilifeform davout: definitionally not, bitcoin has marvels such as being able to annihilate a coinbase from tx index using a (local! nobody but your node has to see it) reorg.
14:07 davout as mentioned a few lines earlier in the log
14:08 asciilifeform because it was built by somebody who was dropped as a baby, and uses tx id as if it were guaranteed unique, then turns around and 'oops, they aren't, but it doesn't matter Because Reasons'
14:08 davout the lulzy part is actually this: http://r6.ca/blog/20120206T005236Z.html
14:08 davout "let's not name bitcoin"
14:09 asciilifeform lol!!
14:09 asciilifeform where'd you dig this up, davout ?
14:09 asciilifeform 'midas money' srsly ?
14:10 davout i just click on random shit
14:10 davout see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0973
14:10 asciilifeform looks like it describes exactly the scenario in this thread. and wuille sat down with his handler and asked, 'how do we 'solve' this but without actually solving it? hmm'
14:11 asciilifeform oh hah it was right there wasn't it.
14:11 asciilifeform lol
14:11 asciilifeform davout's eagle eye.
14:18 davout "Duplicate coinbases already exist in the Midas Money block chain." <<< fucking priceless
14:21 asciilifeform davout: as i understand, the attack described in 7th paragraph, with the transplanted tree, would still work today.
14:22 asciilifeform and wuille's thing does 0 against it.
14:22 asciilifeform in fact, studiously avoids doing anything.
14:23 davout it's very unclear to me
14:23 davout say there is a coinbase A in block 10
14:23 davout same coinbase gets included in block 20
14:23 davout block 20 gets reorg'd
14:23 asciilifeform if you can re-introduce an old coinbase -- which you can , if it has been spent, per trb rules -- you (or anyone else) can afterwards reintroduce any and all tx that had that coinbase as an input
14:23 davout coinbase A is now unspendable
14:24 davout wouldn't it consider the reintroduction as "already spent" ?
14:24 asciilifeform davout: correct, but only tells half of the story. it is unspendable in the sense that whoever mined the original A, is left to be sad. but A can be reintroduced now. and with it, all of the tx that used it as an input.
14:25 asciilifeform davout: it would not, because A is not 'marked spent', it does not exist in the index at all after the reorg.
14:25 davout there are two cases here
14:25 asciilifeform so it merely needs to get mined again.
14:25 davout hang on
14:26 davout in case where A was ~never~ spent, after a block containing its reintroduction gets reorg'd, it can't ~ever~ be spent
↖
14:26 davout as i understand it, since it's removed from the index
14:26 asciilifeform davout: correct. and recall, reorg is a local, rather than global, phenomenon
14:26 davout but it's not clear to me how exactly this works when the first introduction of A was spent
14:26 asciilifeform my nodes, for instance, reorged in different places than mircea_popescu's
14:26 davout aha, right
14:27 davout forkatronic this is.
14:27 asciilifeform davout: per current trb rules (which , see earlier, is different from prb's ! even) A gotta be spent before it can reappear.
14:28 davout i didn't see this "has to be spent before reappear"
14:28 asciilifeform davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1627937
14:28 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 14:54 asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0968 << the routine in question.
14:29 asciilifeform davout: carefully read this routine and follow the calls all the way down, or this thread will make ~0 sense
14:30 davout aha, so this: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628225 is not actually possibru
14:30 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 18:26 davout: in case where A was ~never~ spent, after a block containing its reintroduction gets reorg'd, it can't ~ever~ be spent
14:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> davout: FUCK spendingbeforeconfirmed. << yeah pretty bad idea in retrospect.
14:41 ben_vulpes enTIREly unrelated, does anyone know how to get gpg to decrypt a message that is also signed, but to produce the signature in addition to saying that the signature is good?
↖
14:42 mircea_popescu haha.
14:42 mircea_popescu there's reasons we don't like the sign-and-encrypt bs.
14:43 * ben_vulpes sighs
14:43 asciilifeform natively gpg doesn't even ~carry~ the notion of 'for this set, Message, Signature, Pubkey, say if well-formed'
14:43 asciilifeform you can hack it into existence vtron-style
14:43 asciilifeform (nuke the keychain idiocy)
14:44 mircea_popescu you can extract packets but basically end up re=implementing gpg.
14:45 ben_vulpes coooool
14:48 Framedragger ben_vulpes: you want whole signature contents in cleartext? ya may be difficult with stock gpg. otherwise there's `--list-packets`
14:51 ben_vulpes Framedragger: dude how does --list-packets help at all
14:51 mircea_popescu lol
14:52 ben_vulpes i guess i can --verbose and get the mpi values?
14:52 ben_vulpes greeeaaaaat
14:52 Framedragger wasn't sure what you were trying to do, sorry - you want to first decrypt a message, *then* check signature - but check how beyond 'signature is good'?
14:52 ben_vulpes no i want to see the fucking signature
14:52 ben_vulpes checking could possibly be a thing after
14:53 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes for bonus points, check if it checks beyond "short fp matches"
14:54 ben_vulpes fuck, buddy
14:54 ben_vulpes would really like that stateless verificator
14:54 mircea_popescu aha.
14:54 davout ben_vulpes: only a terrorist would want to see the signature
14:55 danielpbarron txt | clearsign | encrypt # but why??
14:57 ben_vulpes danielpbarron: come again?
14:57 mircea_popescu he's just piling on you an' your sadness.
14:57 ben_vulpes i didn't understand his shovelful, is all
14:58 trinque he proposes stuffing the sausage in a sock
14:58 ben_vulpes in other modern obfuscutronix: http://68.media.tumblr.com/fe0a9af4b1b9f48bd034fc8b6eb57298/tumblr_omtld1OkHV1u0x24bo1_1280.jpg
14:59 mircea_popescu that's not even a bad idea.
14:59 mircea_popescu #eulora ftw.
15:00 danielpbarron secret message in keys on the ground
15:01 Framedragger ben_vulpes: sorry for being obtuse, but if by 'show signature' you mean print signature in ascii-armored way, why can't you `echo 'foo' | gpg --clearsign > a.txt`, then `cat a.txt | gpg --encrypt --recipient recipient-username > b.bin`, then `gpg --decrypt b.bin`? (this assumes gpg is interactive and will ask for password, so best to break it into multiple commands)
15:01 mircea_popescu lel
15:01 Framedragger but i'm prob missing somthin
15:01 mircea_popescu Framedragger he just got a pile of encrypted-and-signed crap. how does he get message and signature now.
15:01 danielpbarron i really like the implied sig of the encrypt part of received message back to sender. that way neither party can hold signed material against the other in public
15:02 mircea_popescu a sort of ad-hoc !!v-ing i guess. works.
15:04 Framedragger mircea_popescu: ah ok, i guess the issue is that the sig is part of binary blob, need to convert it, etc, hrmh
15:04 mircea_popescu <mircea_popescu> you can extract packets but basically end up re=implementing gpg.
15:05 ben_vulpes Framedragger: what mircea_popescu said: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628240
15:05 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 18:41 ben_vulpes: enTIREly unrelated, does anyone know how to get gpg to decrypt a message that is also signed, but to produce the signature in addition to saying that the signature is good?
15:05 davout in other GPG-related lulz, when I decided to give the kraken idiots a chance, i ticked the "Encrypt mail sent to me with GPG" and gave my key
15:05 davout and so I received my first deposit notification or whatever, which was indeed encrypted.
15:07 * ben_vulpes on tenterhooks for punchline
15:07 davout it did not occur to these monkeys that somehow it might also make sense to ~not~ include a subject line reading "O HAI YOU HAZ X DEPOSIT KTHXBYE"
15:07 ben_vulpes bwahaha
15:11 mircea_popescu ahaha
15:11 mircea_popescu alf would like this story.
15:14 ben_vulpes danielpbarron: yeah, but falls apart if i want to hold onto a signed thing.
15:15 ben_vulpes don't get me wrong, responding in context is entirely adequate most of the time
~ 54 minutes ~
16:09 asciilifeform https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67738.0 << vintage lulzfest re 'bip30'
16:10 mod6 <+davout> it did not occur to these monkeys that somehow it might also make sense to ~not~ include a subject line reading "O HAI YOU HAZ X DEPOSIT KTHXBYE" << lol, huuurrrr
16:12 asciilifeform 'The list of all used transactions isn't readily available, and once pruning shows up, it might not even exist at all. So, it only makes sense to compare the new coinbase to the list of transaction hashes that are unspent at the time ... ' << holy fuck the 1) idiocy 2) nobody challenged it, afaik
16:12 asciilifeform pruning for fucks sake.
16:12 asciilifeform srsly ?
16:13 davout as a naive question, what exactly is the problem with pruning?
16:13 mircea_popescu mpoe-pr didn't have "dev" talk on her list and who else read that shithole lol.
16:13 davout i see not being able to serve historical data to peers as the major one from where i stand
16:13 mircea_popescu davout in principle nothing ; in practice if you can't justify whence the coins came then what do you have
16:14 asciilifeform davout, mircea_popescu : a 'pruned' bitcoin ~= usd.
16:14 mircea_popescu "these coins were mined not printed, plox believe" ?
16:14 asciilifeform if you cannot show a coinbase origin for EVERY coin that ever existed, you have printolade.
16:14 davout your copy of the blockchain being personal i don't see any other problem than peer-service, if, and only if, you've validated it as validly producing the UTXO set you consider valid
16:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not in principle. see for instance http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619177
16:14 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 16:56 mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime.
16:15 mircea_popescu davout nonsense.
16:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: demurraging coin fails the berlin wall test.
16:15 asciilifeform nobody in his right mind would use it , having any kind of choice.
16:15 mircea_popescu i'm not proposing the solution is acceptable. i am showing you that your OVERSTRONG STATEMENT is nonsense.
16:16 mircea_popescu the defense to something stupid isn't picking something else that's stupid to be yelled at top of lungs.
16:16 asciilifeform the solution whereby tx id is unique for all eternity, is not stupid. it is the Right Thing.
16:16 mircea_popescu that's entirely unrelated here.
16:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even in your demurraging scheme , you would not thereby be able to safely recycle tx id.
16:18 mircea_popescu as to the direct question, a pruned chain may make sense, if someone came up with a way to do it sanely. this seems impossible on bitcoin-as-it-is, and perhaps unlikely in the general.
16:18 asciilifeform there is nor cannot be such a thing where a fortranesque '1 := 2' produces a consistent state.
16:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd say that the idea is impossible in the general case.
16:18 mircea_popescu why ?
16:19 asciilifeform 'where did this money come from, how much exists in total' 'dunno, in the Great Pruning of 2050 the scrolls of the ancients were lost'
↖
16:19 davout mircea_popescu: how is it nonsense if i have personnally verified the chain?
16:19 mircea_popescu it'd necessarily be a scheme with expiring coins, seems to me.
16:19 asciilifeform davout: what does 'verify' mean if you can't trace the coins from birth to current day ?
16:19 mircea_popescu davout because who the fuck are you and why do i have to take your word and if your house burns down what do you do.
16:20 davout i contend that verifying "once" is not that different from "verifying at will"
16:20 mircea_popescu why are you married ?
16:20 trinque if the whole net is trimming how am I with a new node going to verify once
16:20 mircea_popescu you verified her once amirite ?
16:20 davout mircea_popescu: nobody's asking you to trust someone on his word, to each his own chain copy
16:21 trinque gotten where?
16:21 asciilifeform ^
16:21 mircea_popescu if you can't verify at will, you can't verify.
16:24 davout doesn't really matter where you get it from, as long as it verifies, you're not asking your connected peers for a wot identity, yet you take their data and verify it independently
16:24 mircea_popescu ...
16:24 asciilifeform davout: if you aren't storing the historical data, you are not a peer. you are a pseudonode.
16:24 asciilifeform that mooches off the network, while there still are actual nodes.
16:24 davout trinque: "if the whole net is trimming" <<< that seems like a valid objection to me
16:24 * trinque erases his pending restatement of ^
16:25 trinque lol
16:25 mircea_popescu i'm not even sure what the thought process is here, beyond "i don't want to store books because momstate makes libraries and oh, where did anything but cosmo go ?!"
16:25 davout asciilifeform: yeah, sure you're not serving peers the historical data, that's the single thing that seems very wrong with pruning, at least to me
16:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the thought process is that every clever kid wants to 'и рыбку съесть, и на хуй сесть' (tm)
16:26 mircea_popescu what data is there OTHER than "the historical data" ?
16:26 mircea_popescu this delusion of contextless existence, "i am me" hurr.
16:26 asciilifeform davout : mircea_popescu has it. your hypothetical 'pruned' utxo set is one bitflip away from ???.
16:26 davout google translate doesn't exactly help: "et le poisson à manger, et assis sur la bite"
16:27 trinque surely that wasn't 'every clever kid wants a fish to eat and a cock to sit upon' ?
16:27 davout asciilifeform: yes
16:27 trinque lol
16:27 asciilifeform trinque, no, 'to eat the fish AND to sit down on the cock'
16:27 asciilifeform i dunno of an engl. equivalent
16:27 davout "eat your cake, have it too"?
16:27 asciilifeform means wanting two individually-feasible but contradictory items
16:28 asciilifeform davout: i suppose that works
16:28 trinque aha
16:28 asciilifeform and 'i want to not have printolade exist' and 'i want not to have to buy new hdd every year' is such a pair.
16:29 asciilifeform there is no way to compress infinite string into finite space.
16:29 mircea_popescu no but consider. we currently have the situation where lucentio of pisa comes to padua, and inquires, "who owns these houses ?" and gets answer "x, y, z, k" and then inquires "oh yeah ? how do i know that ?" and gets answer, "because they bought from endless list tracing back to the dude that built them".
16:29 mircea_popescu and this situation you wish to replace with "because we say so, and if you don';t like it ask another one of us".
16:30 mircea_popescu to which the only sane lucentio answer is "fu, i own them, and if you don't like it ask me."
16:30 mircea_popescu which is EXACTLY how it works : blockchain replacement now costs the whole weight of 400k blocks.
16:30 mircea_popescu blockchain replacement in a "pruned" scheme costs... whatever your pruning interval is.
16:30 mircea_popescu wtf.
16:31 asciilifeform proponents of 'pruning' want to replace 'the weight of 400k blocks' with a promisetronic 'checkpoint list'. which, i imagine the game plan is, to eventually include deviations from the usual proof of work, per gavin's unabashed declaration where 'WE say what the blocks were'
16:31 asciilifeform and ethertard-style proscriptions, etc.
16:32 trinque any "bitcoin on muh smart watchz" notions... things not capable of bitcoinating can connect to something that is, and ask
16:32 trinque over a private channel, even
16:34 asciilifeform it's precisely how all successful usgizations went -- slow, frogboiling replacement of a protocolic guarantee with a promisetronic one that is Just As Good (until it isn't, at which point you're long fucked)
16:35 trinque thing wants something like 50Gb per year; couple of terabytes and you're good for a long time.
16:35 davout i'm merely looking for things i'd have missed apart from "being unable to serve peers historical data is a dealbreaker"
16:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i see no need for the subertfuge. if tomorrow thing is pruned to include "last 1k blocks" i'll just mine a 1k long chain in which everyone donates their coin to me, and bomb all the miners who refuse to mine on it. pie.
16:36 trinque whole thing doesn't even have to be SSD; I routinely shuffle off chunks of bdb to platters
16:36 davout which is basically what everything that has been said regarding pruning boiled down to
16:36 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/#selection-109.0-109.416 is clear enopugh
16:36 trinque davout: it goes the other way too
16:37 trinque say someone comes at you with blocks further back than your prune, and you are compelled to accept them by hash rate
16:37 trinque can't even say they ~ever~ were a part of bitcoin
16:37 trinque you have nothing to base it upon
16:37 trinque so you either ignore and maybe you're forked off to nowhere land, or you accept, and blindly
16:38 davout trinque: in that particular case what criterion would you refuse them upon if you had the full chain anyway?
16:39 mircea_popescu "txn don't match what i have"
16:39 asciilifeform davout: from where does this 'full chain' come from ? martians deliver it to your house ?
16:39 asciilifeform where was it in the meantime ?
16:39 mircea_popescu currently, blockchain is a ~whole~ story which has to check out. this can be verified. a partial story can never check out, and consequently can never be verified.
16:39 trinque davout: I'm saying spurious blocks claiming a very old parent block
16:40 asciilifeform davout: understand, anyone who runs a node that cannot or will not produce 'historical' record ~from genesis up to currentheight~ is an attacker. doing his own small bit to nail bitcoin .
16:40 mircea_popescu quite.
16:40 asciilifeform if you have enough of these, bitcoin per se becomes a very questionable proposition
16:40 asciilifeform and the concept of 'the' blockchain -- fades.
16:41 asciilifeform this was the subject of mircea_popescu's keccak article
16:41 asciilifeform which i thought was pretty clear
16:41 trinque number of nodes with full chain approaching number of nodes which can collude approaches Modern Banking (TM)
16:41 asciilifeform aha.
16:41 asciilifeform visaisation.
16:42 mircea_popescu bitcoin really doesn't have that many nodes active, nor has, for a while now.
16:43 asciilifeform once you learn how few nodes are actually nodes -- your bowels, will quiver.
16:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what'd the usg love more than for it to fade! to become "technologies"! to etc.
16:43 asciilifeform sorta the whole thrust of gavinism, neh
16:44 asciilifeform silently replace the protocol with promise.
16:44 mircea_popescu the "alternatives" narrative. a deep matter, going all the way to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624181
16:44 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 14:50 Framedragger: i like my rc airplanes. "the will of history necessitates you to X" has a marx'ified hegelian vibe :p
16:44 mircea_popescu it's apparently the most deeply cherished delusion, of the young-man-and-his-biddle, that "alternatives!!1"
16:44 mircea_popescu there's no fucking alternatives.
16:44 davout asciilifeform: the "full chain" thing is simply in the context of asking a clarification to the question
16:44 asciilifeform davout: this is pretty fundamental material, imho, it is 'what separates us from the monkeys' (tm)
16:45 mircea_popescu davout you happy with teh responses ?
16:45 mircea_popescu young-man-and-his-binlde* i mean
16:45 davout mircea_popescu: not really because i'm not particularly interested in discussing pruning from a position where i'm somehow supposed to defend it
16:45 mircea_popescu but ?
16:46 davout trinque: basically your point, which seems absolutely valid, is that past a certain depth you simply can't do a reorg, right?
16:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it is, at that.
16:50 davout so yeah, i'm satisfied with the answers in the sense that i did not miss any particular argument against pruning
16:51 mircea_popescu sort-of like asking for particular arguments against cutting your own throat.
16:51 mircea_popescu it's safe to say you probably missed some PARTICULAR arguments ; but it's probably safe to say you did get the fundamental argument, which is : you do, you die.
16:52 davout i think pruning would compare better to cutting everyone's throat "just a little" bit than "cutting one's own throat"
16:52 mircea_popescu you can't prune my chain. you can only prune yours.
16:52 asciilifeform ^
16:52 mircea_popescu so... no. cutting own throat, all the way.
16:53 mircea_popescu that the absence of such miracle dieters will scarcely be felt is true ; but not sure if that's relevant to you.
16:53 davout if "cutting one's own throat" == "not being able to reverify" i'll agree
16:54 asciilifeform davout: the fundamental fallacy is the notion that bitcoin, absent the 'ladder' of transactions from a valid coinbase to your particular unspentolade, is still in whatever sense 'bitcoin'
16:54 asciilifeform rather than an old candy wrapper.
16:55 mircea_popescu cutting own throat = "not able to participate in bitcoin"
17:08 asciilifeform !!up DaoSancho
17:08 deedbot DaoSancho voiced for 30 minutes.
17:09 ben_vulpes heh k that's a pretty good nick
17:10 mircea_popescu what is it ?
17:17 ben_vulpes well at first i thought it was a good pun on don sancho using the portugese dao, and punning on teh dao attacker
17:25 ben_vulpes pete_dushenski: pm
17:25 davout in other aerobatic news http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3
17:25 davout "he aircraft encountered wake turbulence sending the aircraft in uncontrolled roll turning the aircraft around at least 3 times (possibly even 5 times), both engines flamed out, the Ram Air Turbine could not deploy possibly as result of G-forces and structural stress, the aircraft lost about 10,000 feet until the crew was able to recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force"
17:25 ben_vulpes > sends business jet in uncontrolled descent
17:25 ben_vulpes SWEET
17:25 davout tl;dr: don't fuck with A380s
17:27 ben_vulpes > the aircraft received damage beyond repair and was written off
17:27 ben_vulpes WHOA
17:27 davout i had to double check, thought it was some kind of hoax
17:27 ben_vulpes davout: what means "recover the aircraft exercising raw muscle force"?
17:28 ben_vulpes manual control surface actuation?
17:28 davout that's my understanding too
17:28 ben_vulpes so get the bird into some sort of regime where you can air-start the turbines?
17:29 davout something different this
17:29 davout first: don't die immediately by recovering the aircraft
17:29 davout second: try to not die later by getting at least an angine back on
17:29 davout *engine duh
17:30 ben_vulpes dag
17:30 veen with both engines out and no ram air turbine you have no hydraulic pressure with which to do shit
17:30 veen literally get two guys on the yoke and start reefin' on it
17:31 davout pretty much
17:31 veen if you've ever turned off the ignition in your truck while rolling and tried to steer or apply brakes you know the feel
17:32 davout or, you know, flown a cessna
17:33 veen forces required to move cessna surfaces around within design envelope speeds are not significant, mechanical advantage is sufficient
17:33 veen no hydro system on it
17:33 davout you still feel it, that's the point
17:34 ben_vulpes i imagine the actuation forces in a hyraulicized biz jet are...larger
17:34 asciilifeform at least thing ~had~ mechanical linkage. picture a 'by wire' machine.
17:34 asciilifeform ~= brick
17:34 ben_vulpes no mechanical backups in those?
17:34 davout asciilifeform: probably one of the x systems would have survived
17:34 davout ben_vulpes: i think some don't
17:34 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: nope. joystick in, e.g., f16, or airbus, is ~exactly same as toy joystick
17:35 asciilifeform 0 mechanical link to the surfaces.
17:35 davout imagine an A380 on mechanical force, what would the point be?
17:35 veen anyway lesson here is that heavy, slow, and high-drag config means shoving a metric fuck ton of air around, and said airmass remains energized for a long while
17:35 asciilifeform davout: you can lift a house with hand-cranked mechanical force, just takes time
17:36 asciilifeform rome was built with hand-cranked (foot-operated, really) cranes
17:36 davout veen: you're usually not slow and in high-drag configuration at FL350
17:36 asciilifeform so entirely conceivable to have airbus with mechanical linkages still worth something minus hydraulic pump
17:36 davout i somehow just don't see it
17:37 ben_vulpes don't the megaplanes do the trick with the tiny flap that actuates the effecting flap?
17:37 davout i'll dig it, the question is interesting
17:37 veen aha
17:37 veen the man-handling happened at the helm of the challenger, much much smaller airframe
17:37 davout ben_vulpes: that rings a bell, not a mega-planes specialist, yet
17:38 ben_vulpes davout: aiui, nobody cranks the effecting surfaces around, but uses a small flap to do so.
17:38 ben_vulpes and then they hit mechanical stops, eg 0, 1, 2, 3
17:38 ben_vulpes precisely so that losing power doesn't mean instadeath
17:39 ben_vulpes but i am not a big bird specialist
17:39 ben_vulpes no tv in my house
17:39 davout ben_vulpes: looks like the a380 doesn't have purely mechanical backups, which makes sense, only electric ones: http://www.fzt.haw-hamburg.de/pers/Scholz/dglr/hh/text_2007_09_27_A380_Flight_Controls.pdf
17:40 davout bear with my temporary incompetence, still working on air law
17:42 ben_vulpes interdasting
~ 26 minutes ~
18:09 mircea_popescu basically this was a case of business jet yachting.
18:10 mircea_popescu conceivably the nobel prize committe could confer on them the auld mug.
18:18 pete_dushenski in other news, i'm happy to report that i've successfully run alf's wire patch. hooray!1
~ 19 minutes ~
18:38 mircea_popescu lmao, the libertards are nao in "plox don't expect evidence for that trump-russia thing" mutual grooming mode.
18:41 mircea_popescu meanwhile at the other end of "our democracy" female state, https://www.quora.com/What-is-best-way-to-get-traffic-for-new-Hindi-blog
18:48 Framedragger got an email, "Kraken opens Melon (MLN) trading"
18:48 Framedragger > Melon is a protocol for managing digital assets that is decentralized, modular, transparently auditable, and low cost
18:48 Framedragger > Melonport, the company behind Melon, had a very successful Initial Coin Offering (ICO), hitting its target of 227,000 ETH
18:48 Framedragger ok
18:49 asciilifeform 'initial coin offering' lol
18:50 Framedragger i was getting incredulous with the first sentence description but my worries were soothed after reading that they're built on ethereum and that they had an I C O
18:52 asciilifeform in other lulz, even though preet is out, preet-style lulzindictments of folx nowhere near usgistan, are still a thing : https://cryptome.org/2017/03/dokuchaev-001.pdf ( turdalicious fax scan, no plain text available yet afaik )
18:53 asciilifeform https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-charges-russian-fsb-officers-and-their-criminal-conspirators-hacking-yahoo-and-millions << from horse's mouth, some plain text.
18:53 asciilifeform 'A grand jury in the Northern District of California has indicted four defendants, including two officers of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), for computer hacking, economic espionage and other criminal offenses in connection with a conspiracy, beginning in January 2014, to access Yahoo’s network and the contents of webmail accounts.'
18:53 mircea_popescu heh now THAT is going away only with the physical dismemberment of the beast.
18:54 asciilifeform preet 'жил жив и будет жить' !111
18:54 mircea_popescu let's not exaggerate.
18:55 asciilifeform 'Belan had been publicly indicted in September 2012 and June 2013 and was named one of FBI’s Cyber Most Wanted criminals in November 2013. An Interpol Red Notice seeking his immediate detention has been lodged (including with Russia) since July 26, 2013. Belan was arrested in a European country on a request from the U.S. in June 2013, but he was able to escape to Russia before he could be extradited. Instead of acting on the U.S. g
18:55 asciilifeform overnment’s Red Notice and detaining Belan after his return, Dokuchaev and Sushchin subsequently used him to gain unauthorized access to Yahoo’s network.... ' << where is the indictment of the idiot woman ?
18:55 asciilifeform what'shername
18:55 asciilifeform the 'ceo'.
18:55 mircea_popescu yeah, i have nfi why teh putin isn't flooding the usg with red notices for usgtards.
↖
18:56 mircea_popescu possibly that nobody gives a shit.
19:00 pete_dushenski belan was on cover of one of the sections of the local paper this morning. flexing his tatted muscles in mirror selfie. article referenced how '22yo dropped out of school but was seen on instagram flashing wads of 100s, driving fast cars, drinking grey goose(!), and posing with girls in tight dresses(!!)'
19:01 mircea_popescu uh
19:02 mircea_popescu wtf, flavoured vodka ? what is wrong with people.
19:02 pete_dushenski myeah. rcmp took credit too. independent authority!!!1
19:02 mircea_popescu they really gotta hfcs all the things, don't they. it's not enough the difference between beer and fanta is the label. now gotta fuck up the liquors too don't they
19:03 mircea_popescu "Dramatic label. Frenchness. Premium exclusivity." are you FUCKING KIDDING ME ?~!?!?! you can buy it at thew supermarket! wtf exclusivity!
19:03 pete_dushenski grey goose has normal unflavoured variants. in mega-bottles (>2l) isn't the only 'flavour' available afaik
19:03 pete_dushenski s/it's/isn't
19:04 pete_dushenski dunno why anyone would pose with grey goose that wasn't 10l either
19:04 trinque it's the shit in every vegas hotel's bullshit snack locker
19:04 mircea_popescu !~google reserva san juan
19:04 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Conac Reserva San Juan - Alimentos y Bebidas en Mercado Libre ...: <http://listado.mercadolibre.com.ar/delicatessen-vinos/conac-reserva-san-juan>; Cognac Reserva San Juan - Alimentos y Bebidas en Mercado Libre ...: <http://listado.mercadolibre.com.ar/delicatessen-vinos/cognac-reserva-san-juan>; Reserva San Juan - Moniquirá | Proyecto Nuevo de Casas ...: (1 more message)
19:04 mircea_popescu !~google ron centenario anejo
19:04 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Ron Centenario Anejo Especial | Total Wine & More: <http://www.totalwine.com/spirits/rum/aged-rum/ron-centenario-anejo-especial/p/3840750>; Ron Centenario Anejo Especial | Rum Ratings: <https://www.rumratings.com/brands/787-ron-centenario-anejo-especial>; Ron Centenario Anejo Rum "7": ABC Fine Wine & Spirits: <http://www.abcfws.com/product/842.uts>
19:04 mircea_popescu ok. THAT's exclusive. not because it's expensive but because you can't fucking get it.
19:05 mircea_popescu "There is nothing smoother then this rum. I recommend everyone to get this. I bought it in Costa Rica for $45. It goes great with come." << bwahahaha that site. teh sluts know.
19:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628501 << same reason why people don't bite mosquitoes back.
19:08 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 22:55 mircea_popescu: yeah, i have nfi why teh putin isn't flooding the usg with red notices for usgtards.
19:09 mircea_popescu i do.
19:09 asciilifeform lolwut, with teeth ?
19:09 asciilifeform ..with proboscis?
19:09 mircea_popescu on occasion. yes with teeth. i also pluck their legs and let them die. in general i torture a good half of all mosquitoes.
19:10 * asciilifeform takes off hat
19:11 asciilifeform the mosquitoes here in mosquitolandia are large, but apparently not quite the size of mircea_popescu's ( though at c3 i saw a great many mosquitoes, but 0 bit ! some sort of incompatibility..? )
19:11 mircea_popescu i never bought into that "gotta be the better guy" theor.y
19:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform maybe they just minded who you were with :D
19:11 asciilifeform dunno that it's about the 'better'. just that one has proboscis, the other does not
19:15 mircea_popescu i do ok.
19:16 asciilifeform i mean, who the hell cares if ru court indicts somebody. spain, germany, etc. won't extradite to ru.
19:16 asciilifeform ~nobody does.
19:16 mircea_popescu i said red alerts bs
19:16 mircea_popescu "interpol"
19:17 asciilifeform incidentally how come 'nobody' cares that interpol was a nazi org ?
19:17 mircea_popescu it washed.
19:17 asciilifeform built by no less a man than heidrich.
19:18 mircea_popescu hey, nobody cares "our democracy" was built by no less a man than mussolini.
19:19 asciilifeform evola sold on amazon? tel aviv shits dodecahedral bricks; nazi kidnapping squad STILL AROUND, regenesisblocked -- snoar
19:21 trinque former had more to do with Bezos' own political signaling
19:21 mircea_popescu ^
19:21 trinque nobody "made" him
19:21 mircea_popescu i very much doubt any english speaker read enough evola to distinguish him from, whatever, eco
19:22 asciilifeform the last book burner who ~read~ the books, likely, died some time in 1500s
19:25 danielpbarron russia, check. tits, check. classic catch phrase, check! https://tjournal.ru/42043-ispolzovat-zhivotnih-v-eroticheskoi-reklame-eto-zoofiliya >> "The raccoon has come to expect that treats await him between a woman's breasts," the zoo says in a lawsuit
19:25 mircea_popescu bwahaha
19:26 asciilifeform 'Снимая его рядом с обнажённой женщиной, ответчик нанёс вред популяции енотов. Теперь каждый, кто посмотрел данный ролик или фотографию, будет ассоциировать енотов непосредственно с эротикой. ' << l0l!!
19:26 asciilifeform didjaknow
19:26 mircea_popescu why the fuck are they quoting an english "life" article.
19:27 asciilifeform 'by filming the raccoon with a naked woman, the defendant inflicted harm on the population of raccoons. Now, every who sees this given film or photograph, will associate raccoons directly with erotica.'
19:27 mircea_popescu wtf, "violation of animal rights" ? what is this bullshit.
19:27 asciilifeform not just animal
19:27 asciilifeform but 'population of animal
19:27 asciilifeform '
19:27 mircea_popescu "moral rights of raccoon" ?
19:28 asciilifeform of course this is a circus, neither a concrete raccoon nor all of them put together, have any official 'rights' in ru.
19:28 mircea_popescu "animals are not toys" hello, is this an orange zoo ?
19:29 asciilifeform but there is a set of 'fried chicken niggers' (tm)(r)(trilema) in ru, who want to change this, so that they can http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627253 on it.
19:29 a111 Logged on 2017-03-15 00:29 mircea_popescu: pretty fine example of exactly why warren was so vocal (item was strictly a barony created so elizabeth warren could be barron OF SOMETHING). this cfpb item spent 55mn on "renovations" of its hq, ie more than the gsa spent that year on everything the usg owns ; spent immensely on travel (which is not something they do). the chairman is supposed to not be removable by the president except "for cause" (meanwhile that got strick
19:29 mircea_popescu im sure.
19:29 asciilifeform recently it was proclaimed that these folx succeeded in forcing an animal 'census' in moscow. which turned up some 300 large cats. incl. tigers
19:29 asciilifeform in various apartments.
19:30 mircea_popescu lel.
19:30 mircea_popescu i knew a guy who kept a couple.
19:30 mircea_popescu ranch like house though.
19:30 asciilifeform popular, apparently, pet.
19:30 mircea_popescu yeah, popular, with a certain kind of guy.
19:30 mircea_popescu ~chuka, or if you prefer iroquis level of mental retardation.
19:31 mircea_popescu "totem animal make me strong! huukhaa!!1"
19:31 asciilifeform maybe just very advanced toxoplasmosis
19:31 asciilifeform or what was it.
19:31 asciilifeform 'when, WHEN can i be eaten!!'
19:32 asciilifeform there are folx who climb the fence in the zoo, in every country
19:32 mircea_popescu nah. contrary to popular imagination, domestic tigers aren't particularly ferocious.
19:32 mircea_popescu i suspect that may be the deep driver, guy knows the animal is harmless, much more so than wife, but visitors shit pants.
19:32 mircea_popescu think : the first time people found out there were 300 tigers in moscow was when they went to look for them. not when the 500 people were eaten, sort of thing.
19:33 asciilifeform indoor pets mostly.
19:33 asciilifeform not many american-style 'picket fence' houses there.
19:33 asciilifeform and iirc there were more leopards, lynxes, other 'desktop' cats, vs 'mainframe cat'
19:33 mircea_popescu yeah. it's a very strong version of i suppose westernarck. if it's seen you for a long time it's not likely to attack unprovoked.
19:34 mircea_popescu similarily to how chickens are perfectly safe with housecat that has history of playing with chickens etc.
19:34 asciilifeform iirc the typical 'eaten by tiger' candidate is not the owner, but a sometime visitor.
19:35 mircea_popescu yeah. some visitor with bad hygiene and brusque manner.
19:36 mircea_popescu the animal ~is~ powerful as all hell. so if it decides to get you you're in trouble.
19:37 asciilifeform the observation where 'the number of circus trainers among population of people eaten by tigers is ~0' applies to just about everything.
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
20:39 ben_vulpes people don't immediately make friends with the largest animal in the room?
20:39 ben_vulpes the mind boggles
~ 56 minutes ~
21:36 mircea_popescu tiger's only a quarter ton or so.
21:36 mircea_popescu from what i hear smallest kitten in the room if that room'd be in the 50 contiguous fattes.
~ 55 minutes ~
22:32 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> on occasion. yes with teeth. i also pluck their legs and let them die. in general i torture a good half of all mosquitoes. << i like his enthusiasm. im usually content to simply smash them like @ c3. but, hey, i gotta try this.
22:46 BingoBoingo <pete_dushenski> belan was on cover of one of the sections of the local paper this morning. flexing his tatted muscles in mirror selfie. article referenced how '22yo dropped out of school but was seen on instagram flashing wads of 100s, driving fast cars, drinking grey goose(!), and posing with girls in tight dresses(!!)' << Apparently post partum psychotic beserker dominated local paper here today
23:01 BingoBoingo https://archive.is/LHf4M
23:02 BingoBoingo Anyways, that seems to be par for the State of the Female State
23:06 asciilifeform in other very olds : http://www.hartron.com.ua/en/node/91 << for the Museum of Terrifyingly Bad Translations
~ 44 minutes ~
23:50 mircea_popescu mod6 aha!
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