Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-02-26 | 2017-02-28 → ↓
01:18 ben_vulpes since it's quiet: http://archive.is/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-23/saudi-arabia-2-trillion-aramco-vision-runs-into-market-reality
~ 23 minutes ~
01:42 trinque bizarre. "no, we really don't think this company which extracts what ~everything runs on~ is as valuable as ... pick your non-essential toy company"
01:42 trinque we might lose computers but we'll be extracting and burning oil until we're dead
01:43 ben_vulpes can saudi arabia not buy russia?
01:44 phf i couldn't get past title. "ten tricks international oil conglomerates that run everything hate"
01:50 ben_vulpes valuing reserves sounds a lot like "multivariate calculus for experts"
~ 4 hours 9 minutes ~
06:00 BingoBoingo lol
06:00 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
06:01 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1181.91, vol: 3741.73431050 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1165.0, vol: 4531.80209 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1183.0, vol: 10287.21329017 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1182.0, vol: 1900.47549958 | Volume-weighted last average: 1178.7211065
~ 51 minutes ~
06:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1618983 << it must be a bit of an ego boost when one's like... shown things, on a service which has their name in the url lel.
06:52 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 02:58 trinque: ben_vulpes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VcIWx/?raw=true << behold the wtf
06:59 mircea_popescu trinque if it helps, the last that i see on the path to you is 38.104.87.131 (joe's datacenter). 104.192.170.197 is also allocated to them. 138.107.206.73 however does not, it's "olympus corporation" of kiminobu eto, takuro watabe & toru yamaki whatever japanese company. why's that in there.
07:01 mircea_popescu actually... the local branch of olympus, the lens makers.
07:02 mircea_popescu "As you may be aware, Olympus Corporation of the Americas (OCA) recently entered into civil, criminal, and administrative settlements with the United States in connection with the sales and marketing of certain OCA products. This letter provides you with additional information about the settlements, explains OCA’s commitments going forward, and provides you with access to information about those commitments."
07:02 mircea_popescu i wasn't aware, but hey.
07:10 mircea_popescu dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
↖
07:12 mircea_popescu http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N1FU2BY?type=companyNews << and, obviously, their interlocking bank is ditching them.
~ 17 minutes ~
07:30 mircea_popescu (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6
↖ ↖
07:30 mircea_popescu 0mn worth of magic markers is a little much even for japan.)
~ 48 minutes ~
08:18 mircea_popescu and in other brown-shirts-with-gray-trim news, https://qz.com/919678/srinivas-kuchibhotla-muder-the-infuriating-silence-of-donald-trump-over-an-indian-engineers-murder-in-kansas/
↖
~ 16 minutes ~
08:34 mircea_popescu https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/ap_17058207841866-e1488176685278.jpg << holy shit look at that, every single one of them IS FUCKING FAT omfg wtf.
08:35 mircea_popescu why the fuck is holywood half-black and all fatty, and how the fuck does it expect to hang on to any kind of relevancy in this manner ? bollywood has better women.
~ 43 minutes ~
09:19 shinohai Diversity!
09:32 mircea_popescu what fucking diversity, they're all the same cow.
09:33 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619011 << front page story in indian newspapers for past three days
09:33 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 13:18 mircea_popescu: and in other brown-shirts-with-gray-trim news, https://qz.com/919678/srinivas-kuchibhotla-muder-the-infuriating-silence-of-donald-trump-over-an-indian-engineers-murder-in-kansas/
09:33 mircea_popescu "this is what subhuman females look like in their natural habitat, the jungle". wtf, europe went to congo to fix this, not to normalize it.
09:33 mircea_popescu phf i am not surprised, it's pretty jarring as far as these get.
~ 19 minutes ~
09:52 asciilifeform in other noose, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/with_cache.txt << the cache thing, to current time
↖
09:55 mircea_popescu seems the db write/read wait counts for ~20% of total time ?
09:57 asciilifeform often much less, when we have the 4GB cache
09:58 asciilifeform the unfortunate bit is that i do not have 2 identical boxes to run the cache/no-cache variant on, in parallel
09:58 asciilifeform perhaps somebody can be arsed
09:58 mircea_popescu what'd it establish, wehther the cache helps ? it certainly does.
09:58 asciilifeform it isn't clear to me, that it does. the typical verification time is ~same
09:58 mircea_popescu finding what makes the remainder, however, very valuable.
09:58 mircea_popescu because then we could compare something meaningful : the relative compositions of the non-cache waste.
09:59 asciilifeform gprof is the divinely ordained proper way to do this. however will need a bad old dynamic linking build. so will take some work.
10:01 asciilifeform however the one solid clue i have so far is 'disk' -- on the ssd box, a block packed to the bursting point with liquishit, takes ~15 seconds to verify. max.
10:01 mircea_popescu yes
10:01 asciilifeform (i really oughta say 'verify and save', rather than verify)
10:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619009 << i'd much like to hear the details of this, if they exist somewhere. because the Official version makes 0 sense
10:02 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 12:30 mircea_popescu: (story there was, olympus "hired" aka finally accepted its first foreign devil ceo (michael woodford) in 2011 ; and fired him two weeks later as the dude was principally dedicated to the job of, how can we finance usg out of this japanese corp. the usg however didn't go home, but started "legal proceedings", which eventually resulted in the above theft, plus whatever office supplies woodford managed to take home. apparently 6
10:03 asciilifeform ( how did the d00d siphon moneys to usg ? how was this later turned into 'whistleblow' ? )
10:03 mircea_popescu they don't really exist, unless you're a part of the japanese national wot, which...
10:03 asciilifeform as i expected
10:04 asciilifeform fwiw 138.107.206.73 does not appear to be a btc node
10:04 mircea_popescu there is, of course, http://cache.olympusamerica.com/static/msg_section/documents/2016/Anti-Kickback-Statute---OCA-Deferred-Prosecution-Agreement---Fully-Executed.pdf
10:05 asciilifeform ( or to have been one any time in past year )
10:05 mircea_popescu which is the substantiation for the 70bn yet figure i quoted.
10:12 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/clockwise/ << Trilema - Clockwise
~ 28 minutes ~
10:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that 'agreement' is brain-melting
10:42 mircea_popescu wouldn't you say.
10:42 mircea_popescu but no, it's exactly like the charter of a Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи.
10:43 mircea_popescu 5% in cash payment + soviet comissar.
10:43 asciilifeform aaha.
10:44 asciilifeform in other lulz, we still see 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 673809ms; db write wait: 397971ms; db read wait: 64890ms' (block 454992) and 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 456196ms; db write wait: 179701ms; db read wait: 16621ms' (454993) . enemy's strategy is quite trivial, thrash the cache.
10:45 mircea_popescu yeah the 20% figure is more of a sort of "ideal case" ; it can climb to 50% or more like that ^
10:45 asciilifeform 'George W. Bush on Trump's Ties to Russia: 'We All Need Answers''
10:46 asciilifeform look who they dusted off.
10:46 mircea_popescu aha. suddenly they would swallow any dick, just as long as it's not trump.
10:46 mircea_popescu and this my dear chitlins is how "overton window" works.
10:46 mircea_popescu "radicalized" progressives ? hurr durr. they'd be HAPPY to have reaganomics now.
10:47 mircea_popescu and in a few years they'd be happy to have one random middle class indian shot in kansas. and so on. "the general public" fills the available crevices, no more.
10:51 asciilifeform to revisit upstack: mircea_popescu can you think of any reason not to queue the writes ?
11:05 asciilifeform to revisit much further upstack, to http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-14#1018732 ( via mircea_popescu's latest article ) -- consider a 'trb-i' where a tx carries proof of work, and is likewise mined as is the block
11:05 a111 Logged on 2015-02-14 17:42 mircea_popescu: unrelated datapoints. half energy available \being used to mine bitcoin makes bitcoin safe for humans (safe in the sense of, won't be overrun by the altcoin problem)
11:06 asciilifeform ( one possible way to cut the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 knot -- ~everybody~ is a txer, miner, and node )
11:06 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
11:07 asciilifeform needless to say this would be riotously bad idea if pools remain possible (they must - protocolically - die.)
11:10 asciilifeform there are two known solutions to 'allcomers problem' -- proof-of-work; and limited-access (wotronic). tertium ~probably~ non datur.
11:16 asciilifeform (speaking of proofofwork -- iirc szabo had a lulzy piece about two tribes of northwest-american indians who traded sea shells that were too abundant in each tribe's section of the coast to use as proofofwork, to the other, where they were usable )
11:16 asciilifeform ^ can anyone find this piece ? or it evaporated.
11:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the problem is the dirty reads. if you queue the writes what do you do with the reads ?
11:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: would have to have some equivalent of fs journal
11:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the piece needn't be found as such. a large portion of the us-mexico conflict of the 1980s was over silver. which was good money in china.
11:20 asciilifeform (i.e. 'these writes don't count until X is also written')
11:20 mircea_popescu us and mexico both aimed to supplant the silver standard coin of china.
11:20 asciilifeform 1890s neh
11:20 mircea_popescu please don't tell me you aim to reimplement jfs in btc ;/ way the fuck cheaper to just use one.
11:20 mircea_popescu yeh.
11:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: just to make it absolutely clear, i don't see a long-term future for satoshi's turd. all of my work on trb is to be regarded in same light as the neutron-absorbing armour on 1970s sov tanks -- something with which to prolong the life of the crew ~slightly~ so that it can drive over freshly-nuked ground and last a few hours of shootout.
11:22 mircea_popescu anyway. mined-txn is impractical because of a very practical impedance mismatch, which for historical reason we'll render as "not everyone can be a bank".
11:22 asciilifeform do plz elaborate
11:23 mircea_popescu the function of spending money can not be equal to, and has to be decoupoled from, the function of issuing money.
11:23 mircea_popescu this is a truth of the same level of, "a ship needn't carry a shipyard"
11:23 asciilifeform ( i can picture that people wishing to 'be bank' will bid up the cost of txing, by pushing up difficulty. but the wotronic answer -- limit access to nodes to 'subscribers' -- also threatens to re-create banks, neh ? )
11:24 mircea_popescu currently, blocks issue money and txn spend money. and their decoupling, having nodes "mined" to a hard standard while txn are ALSO mined to a much weaker standard, is sensible.
11:24 asciilifeform that's what i suggested earlier
11:25 mircea_popescu hm ?
11:25 asciilifeform say a tx gotta carry proof of work.
11:25 asciilifeform in order to be eligible to be mined into a block.
11:25 asciilifeform separate difficulties.
11:25 mircea_popescu yes. if it increases the tx mining standard to the point it's = the block mining standard, you coupled issuance and expense.
11:25 mircea_popescu if not, then you still have thew present situation.
11:26 mircea_popescu currently, in order to create a txn you must mine it (calculate some hashes), worth about 1/10^20 of a block or so.
11:26 asciilifeform what would the degenerate case -- block==1tx -- look like ?
11:26 mircea_popescu bitcoin reduced to coinbase (ie, newly minted coins) spending only.
11:26 asciilifeform oops, 2 tx
11:26 asciilifeform lol
11:27 mircea_popescu nah, just the one.
11:27 asciilifeform that'd be pretty useless
11:27 mircea_popescu people'd just keep track of the previous outputs like so many tradestones.
11:27 mircea_popescu it would be, yes.
11:27 asciilifeform (test of heat sink, perhaps. but 0 else.)
11:27 shinohai https://twitter.com/crainbf/status/836170461016903680
↖ ↖
11:27 mircea_popescu well, it'd be ~same as the large easter island items, you know ? "immutable object"
11:28 mircea_popescu shinohai tell the little bitch to stop being so fucking poor.
11:28 asciilifeform the finding i keep bashing my head against, is the realization that the current scheme ('anyone can make any number of valid tx they want, and everyone else must spend cpu cycles again and again and again testing it') has no future.
11:28 asciilifeform it is elementarily ddostronic.
11:28 mircea_popescu pays 25 bucks. for what the fuck, ashoeshine ?
11:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is not directly obvious. anyone may publish any bullshit they want, and i spend 0 cycles not reading it.
11:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: when it makes it into a block -- king and slave alike, are doomed to spend cycles on it.
11:29 asciilifeform forever.
11:29 mircea_popescu the solution to this problem is still what it was last we discussed it : make the nodes responsible for the txn they convey to you.
11:29 mircea_popescu well that's a different story. hence the http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
11:29 asciilifeform this solves mempool spam but not the basic problem where a tx sitting in a block is an infinite, recurring cost, while the cost of creating it is finite and one-time.
11:30 mircea_popescu there is that.
11:30 danielpbarron what if a tx has to come with a proof of work that is just harder to find than the tx as a whole is to verify?
11:30 asciilifeform mempool spam is ~uninteresting in the long term, wotronic solution solves it
11:30 asciilifeform danielpbarron: was the direction i was thinking in, earlier
11:30 mircea_popescu danielpbarron the problem is that whatever a bar may be placed in front of people, it must be finite. whereas the flow of time is infinite.
11:31 mircea_popescu no matter how expensive a transaction that is is, the bulk of things to come will overcome it.
11:31 mircea_popescu because what is must be a certain way, whereas what isn't yet can be any way whatsoever.
11:31 mircea_popescu whatso~ever~.
11:31 asciilifeform aint' that what 'difficulty' is for ?
11:31 mircea_popescu not obviously.
11:31 asciilifeform 'you bring bigger scissors --- we bring bigger rock'
11:32 mircea_popescu txn will still be stored.
11:32 mircea_popescu however much it cost, fifty or fifty billion, a txn will cost a number.
11:32 asciilifeform aah in that sense -- yes
11:32 mircea_popescu a number is definitionally finite.
11:32 mircea_popescu whereas the blockchain will grow and grow and grow, and with it the aggregate cost of handling that one txn will be infinite.
11:34 asciilifeform i suspect that this is a 'heat death' problem that cannot be fully dealt with.
11:35 asciilifeform but it'd make sense to put whatever brakes on it that could be practically possible.
11:35 mircea_popescu maybe.
11:35 asciilifeform e.g., to make the 'polluters' maximally breathe the farts they create.
11:35 mircea_popescu it's not so far clear that there can't exist a sensible, and protocol-explicit method to close a market around the fundamental problem of uxto
11:35 danielpbarron periodic flattening of utxo set into 1 addr = 1 output, proof of work to make an address, make addresses expire
11:35 mircea_popescu this is in direct relation to our discussion re how bitcoin fragmentation kills bitcoin anyway.
11:35 asciilifeform what means 'close a market'
11:36 mircea_popescu these are all externalities of the same issue
11:36 asciilifeform danielpbarron: expiring addrs are problematic in their own way, see the 'canned tx' discussion from few days ago
11:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform a market is closed in this sense when all the externalities can be priced.
11:36 mircea_popescu for instance eulora, all items that exist can be priced on the basis of other items that exist ; there are no items outside of this scheme. makes eulora a perfect system.
11:37 danielpbarron the transactions and addresses wouldn't need to contain info about the expiration. the nodes would know when it expires based on when it was first mined into a block
11:37 mircea_popescu such systems do not exist outside of a simulation, take for instance the issue of piracy ; or its exact equivalent, "trade".
11:37 asciilifeform danielpbarron: one of the fundamental attractions, as i see it, of bitcoin, is that it is devoid of the idiot usg-powered musical chairs of 'keep moving the money or we'll steal'
11:37 mircea_popescu who will provide the dying empire so the young brits of 1990 can be as cool as the brits of 1790 ?
11:38 mircea_popescu nobody, and consequently... they aren't. but this isn't a market, it's a war.
11:39 asciilifeform danielpbarron: i can't speak for others, but i'd have 0 interest in a bitcoin where you can cause someone's coin to evaporate by disrupting his net connectivity for a decade or two (e.g., by imprisoning)
11:39 mircea_popescu and this is what "when trade stops war starts" fundamentally means : all items WILL be priced. if they can not be priced through a market, they will be priced through a war. which is why whores are the exact mechanism through which war is avoided : in pricingtheir cunt on the market, they avoid the need to have their cunts priced at the point of the sword.
11:40 mircea_popescu it's how the us set itself up the bomb, through "morality", also ; and why as it is dying, that relaxes.
11:40 mircea_popescu and so on.
11:40 mircea_popescu re http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-29#1287460
11:40 a111 Logged on 2015-09-29 10:10 mircea_popescu: who knows. the venetians spent all their time training the girls to be whores, lost to charles on the field then won in the bedroom.
11:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: orlov phrased same lemma with different pieces -- '90s ru produced a dictum, 'don't lend more than it'd cost the creditor to take a contract on you'
11:41 asciilifeform the debtor, that is
11:41 asciilifeform 'don't lend more than it'd cost the debtor to have you plugged'
11:41 asciilifeform this in re the whores and the sword.
11:45 mircea_popescu alright.
11:46 mircea_popescu so : maybe there can be a way to organize the whole scheme so that the cost of a txn in terms of node is balanced out with the cost of the txn in terms of user ; and miner.
11:47 mircea_popescu this will necessarily mean that the woman does not own her body, in some sense and to some degree, when discussing cunts ; and that i don't know what the fuck unpleasantry, when discussing bitcoin.
11:47 mircea_popescu can't say it's directly evident what.
11:47 asciilifeform this is the mega-problem i was stabbing at, in the earlier nodes thread
11:47 asciilifeform with the 'god fee' crackpottery etc.
11:48 mircea_popescu myeah
11:48 mircea_popescu the problem with "expiring txn", as fundamentally and intuitively sound as it seems, is that if you lose the relation to the original coinbase, you lost everything.
11:48 mircea_popescu which makes "pruned" blockchain entirely useless for any purpose (other than "convincingly" to a standard that's not actually convincing pretend to be you know, done homework)
11:49 asciilifeform lose in the sense of , it fails to get mined in the specified interval ?
11:49 asciilifeform aah
11:49 mircea_popescu no, lose in the sense of, "we no longer need to store tx Z because reasons
11:49 asciilifeform as i understand it, there cannot be such a thing as 'safely pruned'
11:49 asciilifeform it is a heathen heresy
11:49 mircea_popescu well for the reason stated.
11:49 mircea_popescu "block 53 produced a 50 bitcoin mining reward. where is it today ?" "uhhh" "sit down."
11:51 asciilifeform likewise for the reason that ~someone~ still has to keep the world history around. as soon as it is not practically accessible to ~anyone, it becomes possible to 'consensus' and fiatolate.
11:53 asciilifeform 'pruned blockchain' is a fundamentally fraudulent object.
11:53 mircea_popescu myeah.
11:53 asciilifeform (formally speaking: it converts the protocolic into the promisetronic)
11:53 mircea_popescu this marries us to an infinite object. which then creates problems, as discussed.
11:53 mircea_popescu impossible to price infinite objects.
11:54 asciilifeform this is one of those cases where the constant -- matters
11:54 asciilifeform just as it makes a difference whether we run out of usable tantalum 5000 yrs from now, or in 5.
11:54 mircea_popescu now, there is a lot of merit to danielpbarron 's observation -- all that is, must die. but yes, there's also a lot of merit to the contrary alf view -- the whole fucking point here is that we're flirting with immortality, innit now.
11:56 mircea_popescu but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime.
↖ ↖
11:56 mircea_popescu there'll be up to 1bn coins in the system at all points after the millionth block, and everyone can price their holdings according to blocktime, and all is well.
11:57 mircea_popescu 1trn* i mean
11:57 asciilifeform the 1 problem is that ~nobody actually ~wants~ to use a demurraging coin
11:57 asciilifeform it fails 'berlin wall test'
11:57 mircea_popescu 1mn blocks, it should be pointed out, aka 10mn minutes, is a long time.
11:57 mircea_popescu as per your 5k / 5 years tantalum test
11:57 mircea_popescu people have no problem using milk, or for that matter glass. or silicone chips.
11:58 mircea_popescu none of these are "permanent" to the 1mn block standard.
11:58 mircea_popescu (about 19 years give or take)
11:58 asciilifeform tru
11:58 asciilifeform but it does turn an indefinite into a definite-death.
11:58 asciilifeform which is a turnoff.
11:58 mircea_popescu well it will also turn the blockchain into a tenable from an untenable proposition.
11:59 mircea_popescu you understand this, yes ? currently the blockchain is an inexistent object the world depends upon.
11:59 mircea_popescu it is no better in any sense that matters than pantsuit mcclinton clown.
12:00 mircea_popescu of course, with this scheme we also lose bitcoin mixing, which is the true problem.
12:00 asciilifeform the other problem is that 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake' is not a substantial improvement over the current case
12:00 mircea_popescu deeply unfungible, like people, these txn. 15yo can't fuck 5yo.
12:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ is exactly what the title says. necessary FOR ANY.
12:02 asciilifeform incidentally mircea_popescu's algo doesn't force miners to ~relay~, necessarily, blocks
12:02 asciilifeform only to gather them
12:02 mircea_popescu indeed.
12:03 mircea_popescu but the idea is that it does force the presence of LARGE node infrastructure.
12:03 mircea_popescu as large as mining farms, or larger. or i guess less large - by an adjustable factor.
12:03 mircea_popescu it's a step towards closing market as discussed above.
12:03 asciilifeform that'd be rather like calling nsa's database a 'large file backup infrastructure'
12:03 mircea_popescu not last word in any sense, not in general nor on its own topic. but still, prerequisite. first step sorta thing
12:03 asciilifeform 'hey ftmeade, can i haz my phone call from last week'
12:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it is.
12:05 mircea_popescu 'tx is paid for all nodes for a million blocks, while creator pays once and miner rakes in the cake << consider, if it costs 10 bux to store a kb for 1mn blocks, and it costs 20000 bux to mine a block and there's 2k txn to the block, then it can be said the split is even.
12:05 mircea_popescu whether even is fair or not is a marketable question.
12:06 asciilifeform the nonmining node still gets zilch
12:06 asciilifeform all he gets is the electric bill
12:06 mircea_popescu the storing node chose by the victorious miner to do its prepwork gets whatever they agreed upon.
12:07 mircea_popescu this is closer to marriage, in trying to resolve the noder-miner http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 problem.
12:07 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
12:08 mircea_popescu now, the objection can of course be raised that "what guarantees do i have someone will marry me", to which the answer is of course both none and fuck you. it works if you work it, as the expression goes.
12:09 asciilifeform seems like it'd more likely result in hermaphroditism, than marriage
12:10 mircea_popescu a more perfect union, eh. well, plato'd be happy at least.
12:10 asciilifeform and ~fewer~ nodes, and ~more~ incestuous/selective relaying
12:10 mircea_popescu i can scarcely see how could there be more of that, but ok.
12:11 mircea_popescu consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK.
↖
12:11 a111 Logged on 2017-02-19 18:39 mircea_popescu: reported by the miner that included it, as best i can tell.
12:11 asciilifeform if miners vertically integrate
12:11 mircea_popescu totally ruins the "anglotards can think" theory. if they could think this'd be the #1 think they'd be on the lookout for.
12:12 asciilifeform (given mircea_popescu's algo, they more or less must vertically integrate.) then there will be equally little point for nonmining nodes to operate as there is today.
12:12 asciilifeform this is not a strike against mircea_popescu's algo -- imho it is direly necessary
12:12 asciilifeform but it does not solve the 'nodes women' thing.
12:13 mircea_popescu but, of course, http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/
12:15 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619219 << this is actually a regular thing -- recall, various pools have wwwtronic forms into which you can piss a tx directly
12:15 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 17:11 mircea_popescu: consider http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615679 ; nobody seems much perturbed that THE FIRST TIME A TRANSACTION WAS HEARD OF WAS WHEN IT SHOWED UP IN A BLOCK.
12:16 asciilifeform at this point it is not a mega-seekrit, that mempool only barely worx.
12:16 mircea_popescu so if you piss it in, what then ?
12:16 mircea_popescu it's broadcast ? to whom ? why not ? etc.
12:16 asciilifeform then it presumably goes into the pipe.
12:16 mircea_popescu pfff.
12:17 asciilifeform which is not connected to mempool in the usual sense (why would, e.g., antpool, want to tell other pools your tx)
12:17 mircea_popescu cuz it's the fucking spec.
12:17 asciilifeform this is an ad-hoc, orcish version of the 'pay to play' discussed earlier.
12:17 mircea_popescu "i can scarcely see how could there be more of that"
12:18 asciilifeform if 'spec' contains an 'octopus gland of death', item that can be safely and unilaterally jettisoned by a player, it'll be jettisoned
12:18 mircea_popescu heh
12:19 asciilifeform just like 'miners are nodes are txers' was jettisoned in, what, 1st year of bitcoin
12:20 mircea_popescu myeah
~ 24 minutes ~
12:44 mircea_popescu !!up aseriousgogetta
12:44 deedbot aseriousgogetta voiced for 30 minutes.
12:44 aseriousgogetta ty
12:44 mircea_popescu who were you again ?
12:49 aseriousgogetta a serious go getta
12:49 aseriousgogetta ;)
12:49 mircea_popescu that's not much.
12:50 aseriousgogetta life is short
12:57 aseriousgogetta do as much as i can with what little i have.
12:58 trinque the bizarre things that follow "who are you?"
12:59 trinque as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
↖
~ 15 minutes ~
13:14 asciilifeform damn, i was hopin' he'd tell us about something he'd... gone, and gotten
~ 48 minutes ~
14:02 asciilifeform !~later tell mircea_popescu here's another crackpottery in re the nodes/miners/txers 'racul, broasca si o stiuca' : ~multistage mining~. where a node can encumber (protocolically/mathematically - for now i will not specify how) a tx with some proofofwork, when passing it on to next relay; and when the tx is mined, the block reward is split between the multiple parents of the final tx.
14:02 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
14:03 asciilifeform (before anyone laughs, i will point out, yes, the necessary mechanical parts for this do not presently exist.)
14:16 asciilifeform in other lulz, 'medium' now replaces images with blank turds whenever archive.is (and also ye olde archive.org !) saves a page there
14:18 asciilifeform ( e.g., https://medium.com/@dourvaris/my-2015-macbook-pro-retina-exploded-119ea5ea9d1f <<<>>> https://archive.is/p6Z3q <<<>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20170227191525/https://medium.com/@dourvaris/my-2015-macbook-pro-retina-exploded-119ea5ea9d1f )
14:19 asciilifeform archiving the images individually -- strangely, works : e.g., https://archive.is/7XgPb https://archive.is/a5fRg
14:20 asciilifeform and now the interesting observation -- what's with the plastic parts (fan blades, connector headers) that did not melt or so much as warp ?
14:23 BingoBoingo Plastics are fundamentally unequal to each other
14:24 asciilifeform this is kindergarten fact. but still.
↖
14:36 danielpbarron asciilifeform, i had a very similar idea re: staged-mining. came to it in considering a quality-coin where value is a product of quantity of units and a factor which decreases with each passing block
14:37 danielpbarron eulora-inspired
14:39 asciilifeform danielpbarron: as i currently understand it, the encumbrance algo is the boojum.
14:39 asciilifeform i know of no serious candidates.
14:39 asciilifeform (it has to be ~protocolic~, that is, something that the next-pass relay, or miner, could not simply strip out)
14:39 asciilifeform but at the same time has to preserve the validity of the original tx creator's signature.
14:40 asciilifeform this may very well resolve to mircea_popescu's unsolved 'blind inputs' problem.
14:45 asciilifeform i can think of ~one~ approach, so far: tx creator asks his first-hop node for a nonce, which he then incorporates into his tx, which protocolically declares consent to the node fee. similarly to how miner fee already works. BUT this does not solve the problem of how 2nd ... nth hops, could add anything whatsoever meaningful to the tx.
14:47 asciilifeform and this kind of scheme would also nuke 'canned tx', as discussed earlier. so not really such hot stuff.
14:50 asciilifeform ( the above ^ now that i think about it, could be simplified to mircea_popescu's earlier 'node accepts if you put an output to his addr in your tx' )
14:50 asciilifeform this does 0 for 2nd hop tho.
14:51 asciilifeform also if 'a block has many fathers', as in contemplated scheme, this re-introduces the possibility of pool. which imho is a Bad Thing.
15:02 asciilifeform oooook i finally realized that the problem -- as stated above -- is unsolvable
15:03 asciilifeform if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
↖
15:04 asciilifeform (even if you limit the total node feed to some small constant, the miner can ~still~ take ~100% of it, this way)
15:06 asciilifeform i could picture some clever mathemagical route whereby each hop can only take a portion of what the n-1-th node consented to -- but i know of no algo to make it thinkable.
15:10 trinque to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
↖
15:11 asciilifeform trinque: say trinque wants to transmit a tx
15:11 asciilifeform where will he put it ?
15:11 trinque blast to nodes I know which have indicated an interest in mining them
15:11 asciilifeform afaik nobody in tmsr has any direct link to any miner whasoever (or at the very least, wants to admit to it)
15:11 trinque not speaking of current conditions
15:12 trinque miner doesn't want my fee?
15:12 asciilifeform gotta specify why the hypothetical conditions will differ from the current ones, trinque
15:12 trinque you are trying to pay for the cost of each node verifying a txn
15:12 trinque the miner is the guy who is going to profit from the transaction being verified
15:12 trinque why not let him do it
15:12 asciilifeform atm mempool works as a 'meat market' where the eligible chixx stand around, waiting, hoping for a serious mircea_popescu to show up and take'em home
15:12 asciilifeform massive overpressure
15:13 trinque doesn't really answer the question
15:13 asciilifeform or, if you like, a dog pound, where poor beasts await the soap boiler and ~sometimes~ somebody takes one home
15:13 trinque miner wants the chicks, yet I'm supposed to STD test them for him
15:13 trinque let him take the expense; I'll verify his block later
15:14 danielpbarron i've wondered that too, trinque
15:14 trinque asciilifeform: why can I not simply transmit the txn directly to any node which has said via protocol "I want txns"
15:14 asciilifeform trinque: any node that wants to , is in fact welcome to drop the mempool on the floor
15:14 asciilifeform even today
15:15 trinque yes.
15:15 trinque all I need is prior blocks; wtf am I running this mempool on a non-miner for?
15:15 trinque and then if so why try to pay for the relay cost when it can be dropped
15:15 trinque miners can relay
15:15 asciilifeform but in fact if this becomes common -- and you can think of the spamola attacks of last 2 yrs as in fact attempts to MAKE it happen -- propagation will stall.
15:15 asciilifeform because miners have more incentive for secrecy than they have for gathering txes from the wild.
15:15 trinque put it upon my node to know enough miners
15:16 asciilifeform they would actually rather mine coinbasetx-only blocks
15:16 asciilifeform than give away their positions.
15:16 trinque this diminishes over time
15:16 trinque if the fee market cannot pay for such a thing the mining has no future anyway
15:16 asciilifeform there is ~no fee market.
15:16 asciilifeform it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof.
↖
15:17 trinque are we talking of ideal bitcoin or not wtf
15:17 danielpbarron asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
↖
15:17 trinque ~why~ did it not
15:17 asciilifeform trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618581 << was one hypothesis.
15:17 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
15:18 trinque because the actual people doing the mining are not bearing the cost of collecting that which they mine
15:18 asciilifeform trinque: aha. the running thread was re: how might they be made to
15:18 trinque make them run the txn accepting infrastructure
15:18 trinque are they payment processors or not
15:19 asciilifeform currently it is possible to break even as a miner without accepting ANY tx
15:19 trinque or is my node meant to lift "0.0000001%" the weight with all the other good socialists
15:20 asciilifeform the other fundamental problem is that classical bitcoin comes with immense incentive for miner cartelization. if nothing were changed other than 'miner must be a proper node', we get what amounts to visa.
15:20 asciilifeform where you have 6 miners and their 6 nodes, being 'the network'.
15:21 trinque you cannot mine a block now
15:21 asciilifeform aha
15:21 asciilifeform but i can transmit a tx. (for the time being)
15:21 trinque it could indeed be argued that only miner=relay increases the consolidation
15:21 trinque can you though?
15:21 trinque how do you define that? it's in somebody's mempool?
15:21 trinque so what, I mined a block and I ignored you
15:22 trinque it proceeds towards asciilifeform's "mining is a bug" point
15:22 asciilifeform in so far as i can unmistakeably ~determine~ that my tx was not mined -- and know when it ~is~ -- i can transmit. it can take potentially infinite time...
15:22 asciilifeform but i can transmit.
15:22 trinque the relay consolidation is already there; it's just obscured by nonsense hair
15:22 asciilifeform but now picture if i had to own one of the six cartel nodes, to have a verifiable copy of blockchain.
15:23 trinque that doesn't follow from what I said.
15:23 trinque you would receive blocks like anybody does
15:24 asciilifeform what incentive would a fullnode+miner have to send me accurate blocks ?
15:24 asciilifeform in anything like real time
15:24 trinque how is "accurate" defined other than "verifies against the last block I have"
15:25 trinque I can send you a completely empty block now as a miner, and you'll take it
15:25 trinque is that "accurate" ?
15:26 asciilifeform possibly this reduces to the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618268 problem
15:26 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 20:07 mircea_popescu: can you presently count the bitcoin networks that exist ?
15:27 * trinque summarizes point
15:28 trinque everyone-has-a-mempool is not distinct in any way from miners-run-mempool/nodes-relay-to-known-miner
15:29 trinque miner will in both cases mine the txn he chooses and fuck you
15:29 trinque this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
15:30 asciilifeform afaik the real boojum is that miner has overwhelming incentive to stay secret, and the more powerful -- the moar so
15:30 asciilifeform observe, no miners have written to asciilifeform asking for ssh-wire to dulap.
15:30 asciilifeform even though such high rollers as mircea_popescu , sometimes transmit tx through it.
15:31 asciilifeform ( now! for all i know, they wrote directly to mircea_popescu . but notice that he is not burning with the desire to share this fact. the secrecy incentive remains even for folks N degrees separated from a known miner ! )
15:41 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619314 << this is potentially interesting imho
15:41 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
15:42 asciilifeform danielpbarron: didja write this up at length anywhere ?
15:42 danielpbarron not yet
15:43 asciilifeform danielpbarron: it does seem to reduce to the earlier 'let's say mining were what you did to make a tx, and there were no blocks as such' neh ?
15:43 asciilifeform tx-sized blocks, or if you like, block-sized tx..
15:45 asciilifeform and (as iirc mircea_popescu observed also) it would reduce to ~same situation as today, where the folx with the serious hashing iron would eat ~all of the cake, and everybody else gets to do the laundry.
15:47 danielpbarron the thing i was imagining had two different things that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A to B ; creating new coins out of thin air. and anyone can create the new coins, no matter how much hash power they have. the big miners could still exist to supply high quality coins, while the common user could mine low quality coins
15:48 asciilifeform danielpbarron: educate me ( a non-euloran ) what means 'quality of coin'
15:48 asciilifeform is it the knapsack problem, where coins are now vectors, rather than scalars, they have a volume and a density ?
15:49 asciilifeform what does one do with 'low-quality coins' ?
15:49 asciilifeform (and, more importantly, how does a system having coins taking the form (a,b), rather than scalar (c), not reduce to same (c) == a*b ? )
15:49 danielpbarron yes, vector coins
15:50 danielpbarron the quality factor decreases with each mined block
15:50 danielpbarron that parts not eulora-esque.. yet
15:50 asciilifeform how is this different from the old-fashioned scalar coin where the ~quantity~ decreases ?
15:50 asciilifeform i.e. what does the vectorization actually accomplish ?
15:51 asciilifeform as i see it, what is missing here is the knapsack per se
15:51 asciilifeform where you have some ~reason~ to prefer high-density objects
15:56 asciilifeform danielpbarron: and i can hardly picture the low-density 'subcoinbases' actually ever making it into a block .
15:56 mircea_popescu o hai.
15:56 asciilifeform ( or, what, some derp mining on a 486, can cause space inside a block to be filled ?! )
15:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tldr - asciilifeform failed to square the circle
15:57 mircea_popescu aww!
15:57 asciilifeform but perhaps danielpbarron knows how!
15:57 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619252 << i would say that's exactly what happens.
15:57 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59 trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
15:58 mircea_popescu somehow fails to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey, turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
15:58 trinque it would be polite to have a nervous breakdown at the very least
15:58 mircea_popescu wouldn't it though.
16:04 asciilifeform ( lelzies, 454955, 455025 , empty bloxx, just today )
16:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619262 << "plastics" in current practice is a very different material from "plastics" in the 1970s soviet standards book understanding. it ain't no longer pvc, plexi & pp/pet.
16:04 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 19:24 asciilifeform: this is kindergarten fact. but still.
16:04 mircea_popescu much like say "composites" today is a lot more than the "glass fiber" making the better motor boats on the black sea at the period.
16:05 mircea_popescu they're technically plastics because of the process through which they all work, but that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry thing, but a bevy of them.
16:05 mircea_popescu consequently there's no promise "plastics" will behave in the intuitive way.
16:05 mircea_popescu which is how you can have a plastic gun barrel on a gun.
16:06 asciilifeform you can have a cardboard barrel also. for the same 1 shot.
16:06 mircea_popescu these aren't much worse than metal.
16:06 mircea_popescu thermosetting polymer.
16:07 asciilifeform ( anybody try a kapton barrel ? what'd this cost..? )
16:07 * mircea_popescu lolz, the glock is 65% of the market. holy shit this angloworld loves plastics.
16:07 asciilifeform glock has ordinary steel barrel.
16:07 mircea_popescu yes ok.
16:08 mircea_popescu !~google vp70
16:08 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Heckler & Koch VP70 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%2526_Koch_VP70>; Hk VP70 The gun that changed it all - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0Wq5_3rkqd8>; Heckler & Koch's Historic VP70 - Tactical Life: <http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/heckler-koch-historic-vp70/>
16:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619276 << well you wouldn't allow someone to appropriate the value of the tx, but of the tx's context.
16:12 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
16:12 mircea_popescu but yes, in geneeral rewarding hardship creates the problem that it is cheaper to simulate hardship than to go through it.
16:13 mircea_popescu that's why all the efforts to help "black people" as they were understood by white people created a thin sliver of black people tuned to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
16:14 mircea_popescu and this also explains why you heard of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-06#1611925 but not of http://trilema.com/2011/cel-mai-adevarat-in-gangsta-rap/#selection-77.139-77.155
16:14 a111 Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37 thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
~ 19 minutes ~
16:34 asciilifeform theoretically you ~could~ have a leaktight hose where hop1 takes a % of a 'node and miner fee' preallocated by tx author; hop2 takes ~his own~ % of what hop1 left on the table; and so forth. but the requisite mathematical device for protocolically encumbering a tx is afaik undiscovered.
16:39 asciilifeform ( to cement this down for l0gz readers : what you'd need is a mechanism for pubkey-signing some material already signed by another pubkey, whereby the original signature is preserved -- not necessarily bitwise, but in the sense of remaining fully verifiable -- but the new one is not strippable off with any reasonable amount of cpu cycle )
16:41 asciilifeform actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought.
↖
16:44 trinque you can just wrap it in the relaying node's signature, and the relaying node gets whatever he demands of the fee; meanwhile miner wants the copy of txn that gives him the most fee
16:44 trinque but I don't see what any of that benefits
16:45 asciilifeform trinque: 2nd hop could unwrap it
16:45 asciilifeform and first hop gets 0
16:45 asciilifeform unless you can ~protocolically~ cement it
16:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you'll never get the magic number right.
16:45 trinque still no answer why this is better than me having to transmit to a mining node in the first place
16:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: idea is that market gets to twiddle the number, neh
16:45 trinque in which case cost is upon me and the miners I talked to, and nobody else's shoulders
16:45 mircea_popescu you find yourself in the ridiculous posture of trying to invent a drm that works and off the cuff.
16:45 asciilifeform trinque talks to miners today ?
16:46 mircea_popescu information wants to be free, bitch.
16:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if it 'wants to be free', tell me my p and q aha.
16:46 trinque asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants to mine"
16:46 trinque this draws them into the open as you wanted
16:46 asciilifeform trinque: go and draw a chinese miner into the open, today..?
16:46 asciilifeform i'd like to connect dulap to one, instead of trudging through ocean of prb
16:46 trinque your rhetorical methods are sometimes ridiculous
16:46 asciilifeform so i'll be the 1st to tell trinque 'thanks'
16:47 mircea_popescu anyway, this notion that you'll color bits with ownership or righteousness or whatever... it dun work irl.
16:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: phrased this way, it elementarily falls down. q was whether you could do the deed ~without~ promisetronics
16:47 trinque asciilifeform: under this imagined scheme ~the only way~ anyone can process any transactions is if he opens an orifice to receive them
16:47 trinque how bout you criticize *that* rather than whatever you like
16:48 asciilifeform trinque: this is doable right now, you can comment out the mempool in trb...
16:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619279 << i suspect the blockchain-node vs mempool-node split (3rd or so item to be jetisoned) happened like... two years in. once they got the "ligthweight" nodes or w/e bullshit ; non-verifying miner nodes et all.
16:48 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10 trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
16:48 asciilifeform trinque: just don't be surprised when other nodes drop you
16:48 mircea_popescu sounds about 2012ish
16:49 trinque asciilifeform: yes lets switch between ideal bitcoin thread and current bitcoin thread whenever it suits
16:50 asciilifeform trinque: say we stick to the trb-i thread. gotta specify what specifically about your concept of trbi, that would remove the incentive for miner secrecy that exists in classical bitcoin.
16:50 asciilifeform if anything, nuking the possibility of pools (as for instance i favour) would exacerbate it.
16:50 mircea_popescu wait, what ? how the fuck would you remove "incentive for miner secrecy".
16:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: afaik you couldn't.
16:50 mircea_popescu if miner is miner, he wants to stay secret.
16:50 asciilifeform ^
16:50 * trinque sees very little chance of discussing the actual item and tires of chasing it
16:51 mircea_popescu either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else they do, in which case stfu you're not invited to the party.
16:51 asciilifeform unless i misunderstand trinque , he pictured a trbi where miners would advertise 'hi, i'ma miner, and i'd like some tx of yours'
16:51 asciilifeform which any way i picture it, is suicidal
16:52 * asciilifeform bbl; meat
16:52 mircea_popescu kinda what the whole mempool does, reduces the wallflower problem. (irl, girls don't dare go up to boys lest other girls think them sluts, and boys don't dare go up to girls lest other boys think them losers)
16:52 trinque it is not distinct from the present day
16:52 danielpbarron in the staged-mining scenario, miner has incentive to be at least somewhat public because he will often find valid solutions that are not quite big enough to solve a block when used alone, but in combination with smaller pieces will work. so he wants to keep a pool of little pieces at the ready to quickly pad his big chunk
16:52 trinque holy fuck the fog of metaphor
16:53 mircea_popescu trinque go ahead an' cut through it, np
16:53 trinque asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn
↖
16:53 mircea_popescu danielpbarron yeah, the only thing is that if you actually do something like that you are better off dispensing with the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of tree for a blockchain
16:54 trinque why am I relaying txn to 99% of people who aren't going to do a damned thing with it
16:54 trinque rather than the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid to] produce a block)
16:54 trinque and since they are engaged in transaction processing, ought to carry the full cost of doing so
16:54 mircea_popescu (currently, from a purely cs theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin to spirogira strands. most ridiculous tree known to nature.
16:54 trinque i.e. collecting them to insert into the block
16:55 mircea_popescu trinque ~same reason you walk down the street in view of everyone rather than just future employers and spouses.
16:55 danielpbarron the 'block' is to keep it all timed right, so that there's still a certain amount of data stored per 10 minute interval. this is also how difficulty is calculated
16:55 trinque I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
16:55 trinque they are in the block
16:55 mircea_popescu trinque but you need either to a) talk to people who might not mine your tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
16:55 mircea_popescu because there isn't a third.
16:56 trinque how does the presence of my mempool today prevent some miner for mining whichever txn he chooses?
16:56 mircea_popescu danielpbarron that is true, but ungermane. your scheme as proposed simply works better on a proper tree. timekeeping separate.
16:56 mircea_popescu trinque i dunno that it does that.
16:56 trinque what is it that it does?
16:57 mircea_popescu it allows the miner plausible deniability.
16:58 trinque do I have an interest in affording him this?
16:58 mircea_popescu well, if you do not you get b) above in short order.
16:59 trinque then it seems reasonable for any node operator to accept this cost of doing business
16:59 mircea_popescu it does, on the first pass.
17:02 trinque I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing the rules by which miners might be filtering transactions.
17:02 mircea_popescu for instance. there's many ways to look at it, which is usually indicative of our not understanding something more fundamental.
17:02 mircea_popescu generally, the mempool function as go between users and nodes. this function is important.
17:04 mircea_popescu it's somewhat amusing that history repeats itself, in that the gossip market only existed because of the interest of powerful players -- it's not like servant women managed to gossip all on their own! but not like they were likely going to get paid for it either!
17:04 mircea_popescu today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all the players want to keep an eye on all the others.
17:04 mircea_popescu i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
↖
17:07 mircea_popescu now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
↖ ↖
17:07 mircea_popescu what promises the nodes can make are related to what their counterparties say.
17:08 mircea_popescu in this scheme, a node would only relay a txn to another node if that other node promised it MORE than what it in turn had promised the user.
17:08 mircea_popescu it is the format i expect the market to take once block subsidy drops enough, which is to say in 2 to 3 halvings.
17:22 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/02/trump-issues-ultimatum-to-gop-obamacare-must-die-before-tax-reform/ << Qntra - Trump Issues Ultimatum To GOP: Obamacare Must Die Before Tax Reform
17:24 mircea_popescu o hey
17:26 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo the repeal or replacement ?
17:28 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619455 << to relay SUCCESSFULLY, trinque . (not to /dev/null)
17:28 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 21:53 trinque: asciilifeform appears to be bending over backwards trying to get people paid to relay txn
17:28 asciilifeform incidentally it'd also test trinque's 'miners out in the open' thing. miner who comes out of the curtains, could collect 100% of the fee, rather than what relays left behind
17:28 * asciilifeform slowly eats l0gz
17:28 mircea_popescu in other news, https://media.8ch.net/file_store/b2dedbb82ca691f8f645b2ce243853a6438ce7bbddb6c67d095da7104953cbc0.jpg << why do redditard dwellings ALWAYS look like the same fucking homeless shelter, cheap stuffing all over the floor etc ?
17:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lol what is what, a veterinary autocastrator ?
17:29 mircea_popescu you mean the cock thing ? nah, part of the sjw uniform.
17:29 mircea_popescu think of it like panties, for cucks.
17:30 asciilifeform seems like oddball masochism gear, i've never seen it outside of mircea_popescu's links..
17:30 trinque the ongoing quest for acceptable male undergarments eh?
17:30 trinque nowhere to be found!!11
17:30 mircea_popescu lmao
17:33 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619482 << right now, keeping a node is -ev for almost everyone who could be doing it. only oddballs with countereconomic motivation of one kind or another (e.g., trb experimenters) , plus miners themselves, plus serious txers ( e.g., mircea_popescu ) have a desire to do it. there are not so many of these. it is rather like relying on entirely on coprophagics for your sewage disposal needs.
17:33 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 22:04 mircea_popescu: i certainly don't keep nodes for "our democracy", as discussed recently.
17:34 asciilifeform dangerously fragile.
17:34 mircea_popescu plus a few governments, plus a few etcetera.
17:34 asciilifeform aha. and -- if you are 'civilian' -- most of these folx are decidedly NOT 'your friends'
17:35 mircea_popescu but yes, all metaeconomic motivation. i wouldn't call it ccountereconomic. much like me treating the whores well in the 90s contrary to male ideology of the time was not countereconomic.
17:35 mircea_popescu nobody you don;t know is your friend, wtf globalism bs is this.
17:35 asciilifeform aha precisely
17:36 mircea_popescu but to be clear - if you are "civilian" you shouldn't be speaking.
17:36 mircea_popescu civilian role is polishing the silverware not judging the ceiling paintings.
17:37 asciilifeform wasn't referring to the d00d with the cock ring, but to 'i have control of an addr with btc in it, and willing to pay the market rate fee, mine my tx' arbitrary martian.
17:37 mircea_popescu there it gets iffy.
17:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619312 << this is rank nonsense.
17:39 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 20:16 asciilifeform: it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof.
17:39 mircea_popescu there's a lot of cunt, beer, tv etc given away for free every day ; doesn't make these not markets.
17:39 mircea_popescu they're markets alright. the fact that a block subsidy covers 80% or so of the value of a block is the dispositive factor ; and it disposes.
17:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if it is a market, it is 'buyer's market'
17:41 asciilifeform (if i landed, a martian, on earth, and found that almost all beer is given out for free and with 0 strings attached - i would infer that beer is a type of industrial waste..)
17:42 asciilifeform the way i see the empty blocks, and mass of 0fee tx, is that it resembles the old days of petro drilling , when natural gas was flared off
17:42 asciilifeform ( bottling it was , with tech of the period, -ev )
17:42 mircea_popescu if you drew that conclusion from that premise we'd correctly identify you as an engineer martian.
17:43 mircea_popescu cunt's always given away "mosty for free" "with no strings attached". hurr durr, not how it works.
17:43 asciilifeform there's a difference between 'mostly' and 'actually no strings'
17:45 mircea_popescu mno.
17:46 mircea_popescu and moreover, bitcoin tx is absolutely a seller-s market, definition item.
17:46 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu nails it, the block subsidy makes it largely uninteresting to bother with squeezing the most tx fee from every available byte of ullage in block
17:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: my puzzlement is re the continued existence of 0fee in conjunction with 'blocks are crowded.' can you picture a city where trains are full to bursting point, but they continue letting a third of the passengers in for free ?!
17:48 asciilifeform or how about an airline.
17:49 mircea_popescu how do you know they're 0 fee ?
17:49 mircea_popescu you see a guy with a hot woman, she's sucking his cock. 0 fee ?
17:49 mircea_popescu why, because they gotta registger their transactions with you ?
17:49 asciilifeform point
17:49 asciilifeform i do not know for sure. but i have send personally some 0fee tx, and -- somewhat to my surprise -- they got mined
17:50 asciilifeform (within past yr)
17:50 asciilifeform *have sent
17:50 asciilifeform and i did not have to suck anything behind the curtain...
17:50 asciilifeform now, granted, this was not an industrial-grade survey.
17:51 asciilifeform it is possible that the planets simply aligned for me, the gods smiled, every single time.
17:51 mircea_popescu this happens ; and that it happens proves little.
17:51 mircea_popescu see, could you do it RIGHT NOW ?
17:52 mircea_popescu thats the cost of market usage. i can do it when i want.
17:52 mircea_popescu that if you wait long enough eventually an airplane will fall into your yard does not make airplanes a free product outside of the airplane market.
17:52 asciilifeform but if you could fly anywhere for 0 money, supposing your were willing to do it on some unknown date up to month in the future -- quite a few folx would
17:53 asciilifeform yet sane airline does not pack empty chairs with free riders.
17:53 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty fxd
17:53 asciilifeform it is -ev to have any (aside from 'loyalty points' chumps and similar)
17:54 mircea_popescu of course it does.
17:54 mircea_popescu there's even a name for it, i forget.
17:54 asciilifeform discounted riders -- yes. free - not afaik
17:54 mircea_popescu also restaurants hire, you hear me, HIRE schmucks to sit down.
17:54 mircea_popescu and clubs pretty much MEAN "collection of hired sluts"
17:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: seems more of a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618577 neh
17:55 a111 Logged on 2017-02-25 23:17 mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
17:55 asciilifeform yes, new restaurant -- has to lure folx in
17:55 asciilifeform bitcoin however is pretty old restaurant.
17:55 mircea_popescu well...
18:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619483 << funnily enough , this is what i had sketched out when i mentioned http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619409
18:08 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 22:07 mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
18:08 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 21:41 asciilifeform: actually i know an algo that does this. will post it later, if it isn't obvious to mircea_popescu et al after a few minutes' thought.
18:10 asciilifeform here is how it'd work, roughly. a miner generates rsa-signed messages , occasionally, let's call'em 'empty casks'. a cask consists of a declaration, 'i'll include a tx within N blocks, i promise, for Q btc/kByte; and oh, here's a nonce.' the casks are distributed to the next level of nodes away from the miner ;
18:10 asciilifeform these in turn issue casks. and pass'em on downstream.
18:11 asciilifeform at the bottom of the pyramid, a tx author requests a cask from a node, and fills it (assigns his node-and-miner fee to the caskchain specified by the hash he was given.)
18:12 asciilifeform the mature tx resulting from this process, makes its way back upstream to the miner.
18:12 asciilifeform when he mines it : 1) all of the participants know whether he has kept his promise; and whether each level of pyramid has kept its promise;
18:12 asciilifeform 2 ) the miner-and-node fee is cut up according to the promised scheme.
18:12 asciilifeform (protocolically.)
18:15 asciilifeform to rewrite formally, a cask is a C = sig_h1(sig_h2(sig_h3(.....sig_m('i'll mine a tx for q btc/kb...'))); tx author signs, author_sig(my_tx + C)
18:15 mircea_popescu no reason miner would make this opposable.
18:15 asciilifeform h1 is the sig of 1st hop from miner; h2 - second; etc.
18:15 mircea_popescu mno, miner ifnormally tells his nodes he wants txn ; much like lord of manner tells women of the house he wants a girl added.
18:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if he wants to make promises -- they gotta be opposable
18:15 mircea_popescu they go running the streets finding an acceptable one.
18:15 mircea_popescu mnope.
18:16 mircea_popescu the nodes are the oracles.
18:16 asciilifeform the terminal sig can belong to a node, rather than a miner, if miners prove resistant to signing anything
18:16 asciilifeform (i.e. the inner cask)
18:17 mircea_popescu nodes live and die by their promises ; miners live and die by their mining.
18:17 mircea_popescu way of teh world.
18:18 asciilifeform scheme pictured above does suffer from the 'no canned tx' headache. but it does solve the 'miner eats 100% of cake, the rest -- do laundry' thing.
18:18 asciilifeform with this algo, you can in fact market access to a miner. and n levels out.
18:19 asciilifeform and at the same time grade nodes by degree of promise-keeping, as described by mircea_popescu .
18:23 mircea_popescu maybe.
18:23 asciilifeform i challenge the good folx here to find the lethal boojum in this algo. because it almost seems workable.
18:25 mircea_popescu this nut, always with the doubling down.
18:25 asciilifeform incidentally each level of the pyramid could automagically price the casks he issues.
18:26 asciilifeform would be pretty smooth 'plane tickets' market, imho.
18:26 asciilifeform (if there is a shortage of casks coming to me from upstream -- i raise my price for downstream. etc)
18:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: eh the boojum'll turn up. it is not given to ~anybody to invent 2 nice algos...
18:30 asciilifeform though on second thought this algo is, from certain angle, ancient, it is how everything from plane tickets, concert tickets, gladiatorial match tickets, have always been sold
18:30 mircea_popescu anyway. taking away the miner choice wrt to what transactions are included would be a major step forward, goes on the list.
18:31 mircea_popescu it's almost as good as "you can't tell who sent who what"
18:31 asciilifeform aha. let'em sell tickets. that can be resold at markup.
18:31 asciilifeform ~binding~ tickets.
18:31 mircea_popescu state it again.
18:31 asciilifeform (and if a miner issues moar tickets than he has plane seats -- it becomes known)
18:32 asciilifeform i'ma go into the mathematical pit and properly formalize the recipe.
18:32 mircea_popescu alright.
18:32 asciilifeform could take a day or 2.
18:32 asciilifeform (perhaps somebody will beat me to it, also good)
18:32 mircea_popescu this is one of those things that's not time-factored.
18:33 asciilifeform if anvil drops on my head tonight, imho there is enough in today's log to reconstitute the recipe.
~ 47 minutes ~
19:21 BingoBoingo !~bcstats
19:21 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 455046 | Current Difficulty: 4.40779902286E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 455615 | Next Difficulty In: 569 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 22 hours, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
19:31 mircea_popescu !!key Aphex_
19:31 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/E65E3459.asc
19:32 mircea_popescu trinque i get 0 size ?
~ 27 minutes ~
20:00 trinque that has to be from the ancient db where things were done by key ID
20:00 trinque there are a handful of those
20:00 trinque do we know a full fingerprint for that nick?
20:01 mircea_popescu i think this just got uploaded though ?
20:01 trinque huh
20:02 trinque yeah, that should not be using short key ID
20:02 mircea_popescu http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-02-27.log.html#t23:29:02
20:02 mircea_popescu i mean i'm assuming he just made it...
20:04 trinque one sec, fishing it out
20:05 trinque he registered by short key ID; I'll be disallowing that
20:05 mircea_popescu kk.
20:10 trinque mircea_popescu: http://wot.deedbot.org/571C5222741EC7293E8C100CAF612354E65E3459.asc
20:11 mircea_popescu ty
20:11 trinque I'll be fixing !!key for a sec
20:23 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/uhf-the-film/ << Trilema - UHF (the film)
20:27 trinque !!key Aphex_
20:27 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/571C5222741EC7293E8C100CAF612354E65E3459.asc
20:27 trinque fixed
20:28 mircea_popescu cool deal.
20:36 ben_vulpes excellent logs
20:38 * asciilifeform writing draft trb-i spec
20:42 trinque the cask concept is very interesting.
20:43 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/heUlU/?raw=true
20:43 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
~ 20 minutes ~
21:04 * mircea_popescu is moderately surprised amontillado wasn';t even mentioned.
21:04 asciilifeform fortheloveofgawd, MONTREZOR!!!!111
21:05 trinque !!register boobs
21:05 deedbot Provide the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
21:05 trinque for teh benefit of n00bs
21:05 mircea_popescu aha!
~ 32 minutes ~
21:38 mircea_popescu !!key neephonite
21:38 deedbot Not registered.
21:49 mircea_popescu in other lulz, trump wants 54 bn cut off "most federal agencies", ie the libertard state.
21:49 mircea_popescu that's about 2% of the federal budget, ie barely a ripple.
21:50 mircea_popescu of course it's also 2x the expenditure on "science", or "environment" crap... so whatevs.
21:51 mircea_popescu somehow fake news fails to mention THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST US BUDGET SINCE FUCKING REAGAN.
22:00 mircea_popescu !!key neephonite
22:00 deedbot Not registered.
22:08 mircea_popescu !!key neephonite
22:08 deedbot Not registered.
~ 45 minutes ~
22:53 BingoBoingo ty shinohai
22:54 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/02/haoles-at-coinbase-bail-on-hawaii/ << Qntra - Haoles At Coinbase Bail On Hawaii
~ 15 minutes ~
23:09 danielpbarron trinque, it's supposed to take a url to the ascii armored key right?
~ 15 minutes ~
23:25 trinque indeed, I see the guy's session though and I screwed something up last update
~ 17 minutes ~
23:42 phf i don't understand weird al. it's some weird post-hippy take on klezmer, but i feel like i'm missing something, some kind of intermediate step
23:44 * asciilifeform thinks 'holy fuck is the trb-i article looooong;' who will have the strength, to read this.
23:45 BingoBoingo phf: You aren't missing anything. The problem is your brain is working.
23:56 phf asciilifeform: the usual 5 people on the channel, and the one dedicated shadow NSA agent that's assigned to this channel
23:56 trinque what, only one?
23:56 trinque trump budget cuts?
23:56 mircea_popescu phf it's just cheap.
23:56 asciilifeform ninjashotgun!
23:57 mircea_popescu think harlan ellison, or the fucktard that started scientology.
23:57 mircea_popescu or yes, ninjashogun for that matter.
23:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dont worry about it, people routinely read 5k+ word trilema pieces, and they're not even specifically about something.
23:58 asciilifeform this one's already at 4k, and counting
23:59 phf there's one nice thing that came out of harlan ellison, https://www.mobygames.com/game/i-have-no-mouth-and-i-must-scream
23:59 asciilifeform ^^^
23:59 asciilifeform with the little caveat that he had ~0 input into the game design
23:59 mircea_popescu and yankovic was iconic at some point in the (late) 80s
23:59 trinque hate hate hate
23:59 trinque story still ranks as one of my favorites
← 2017-02-26 | 2017-02-28 → ↑

Random(trilema) | Download hourly DB snapshot | Get Source Code

Theme: Light | Dark | System Default