| 00:00 |
decimation |
at least with private cons, the damage is likely to be limited and obvious in scope, rather than 'socialized' |
| 00:00 |
mircea_popescu |
but in general : it is good that any one person steals any one sum from the usg. |
| 00:00 |
mircea_popescu |
this is dead money being returned to live hands. |
| 00:00 |
decimation |
mircea_popescu: there are genuine people with genuine skills who spend their entire lives attempting to make usg better |
| 00:00 |
mircea_popescu |
the word for this is "idiots" |
| 00:01 |
mircea_popescu |
in general, the country suffers when taxes are paid, and gains through graft. |
| 00:01 |
PeterL |
http://bablogs.btcscoop.com |
| 00:01 |
assbot |
#bitcoin-assets blog posts |
| 00:01 |
PeterL |
^ how does that look? |
| 00:02 |
mircea_popescu |
great actually |
| 00:02 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40350 @ 0.00045856 = 18.5029 BTC [+] {2} |
| 00:03 |
BingoBoingo |
PeterL: Looks good, think you are missing Ben Fox's blog and maybe a couple others. |
| 00:03 |
PeterL |
sure, I can add more |
| 00:03 |
PeterL |
links? |
| 00:04 |
BingoBoingo |
PeterL: The look, the styling... simply beautiful http://cascadianhacker.com/index.html |
| 00:04 |
assbot |
missives from the post-megastate frontier |
| 00:04 |
mircea_popescu |
http://trilema.com/2014/people-have-made-blogs/ |
| 00:04 |
assbot |
People have made blogs pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. |
| 00:04 |
decimation |
mircea_popescu: I would agree with the 'idiot' label - but you realize that this 'catches' at least 95% of humanity - who generally refuse to consider their position w.r.t. the entire world's (and history's) context |
| 00:04 |
mircea_popescu |
PeterL also could you make it so only say first 100 words of a post appear ? |
| 00:04 |
mircea_popescu |
decimation soooooo |
| 00:04 |
mircea_popescu |
fizzbuzz test is supposed to catch 99.5% of "programmers" too neh ? |
| 00:04 |
PeterL |
mircea_popescu: I am grabbing the summary, most of them are pretty short |
| 00:04 |
mircea_popescu |
nobody ever criticised it for this. |
| 00:05 |
mircea_popescu |
PeterL fixed max helps the skim reader |
| 00:05 |
PeterL |
sure |
| 00:05 |
* |
mircea_popescu asking for a friend. |
| 00:08 |
PeterL |
BingoBoingo: cascadianhacker apparently doesn't have a working feed, but I could add it to the list on the right |
| 00:08 |
BingoBoingo |
PeterL: Well... I think Ben Fox hosts his blog on emacs |
| 00:08 |
mircea_popescu |
lol ben_vulpes the post is the feed eh ? |
| 00:10 |
decimation |
mircea_popescu: what stripped down version of wordpress do you use? |
| 00:10 |
decimation |
do you update it? |
| 00:11 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno, and nope. |
| 00:11 |
BingoBoingo |
decimation: I think I've asked him before. He doesn't update though. He simply patches. |
| 00:11 |
mircea_popescu |
not in the past 6 months at least, no. |
| 00:12 |
* |
BingoBoingo wishes more software would go the errata+patches route |
| 00:12 |
mircea_popescu |
bout 5-6 years ago i had an actual major portal site, dtng (the 4chan clone) was on it, also fain (a romanian digg) and my blog and a bunch of other shit |
| 00:13 |
mircea_popescu |
at the time i had a full complement of php coder guru types, threw in "make me a better wp" in a worklist once and well... |
| 00:13 |
decimation |
BingoBoingo: well, redhat pretty much operates this way |
| 00:13 |
decimation |
rhel has slowly gone downhill over the past few years - becoming more 'poetterized' |
| 00:13 |
BingoBoingo |
decimation: Not really. RedHat still has updates. Red Hat's antithesis though... |
| 00:13 |
mircea_popescu |
dja mean anathema ? |
| 00:13 |
decimation |
one can inspect the patches, if one is willing to sit down and do the work |
| 00:13 |
BingoBoingo |
decimation: Well Red Hat hired Poettering |
| 00:14 |
BingoBoingo |
I imagine they saw the quick cash the microshit model brings |
| 00:14 |
mircea_popescu |
how did that quote go |
| 00:15 |
decimation |
well, when money is literally handed out to idiots via gov't programs, tricking idiots into forking over is a great business model |
| 00:15 |
mircea_popescu |
"Government sponsored enterprises enter the business, in due course bad behavior is made mandatory, and the evil financial network is bigger than the honest financial network, with the result that even though everyone knows what is happening, people continue to use the paper issued by the evil financial network, because of network effects - the big, main issuers, are the issuers you use if you want to do business." |
| 00:15 |
decimation |
yeah that |
| 00:15 |
mircea_popescu |
same shit, so foss starts, great, get rhel to be a pentagon contractor. |
| 00:15 |
mircea_popescu |
not because you want to use their code |
| 00:15 |
mircea_popescu |
but specifically because you do not want to. |
| 00:15 |
mircea_popescu |
soon enough... |
| 00:16 |
mircea_popescu |
the exact sort of thing that would render a us expeditionary force if the arabs but spoke english, is the exact thing that renders the "well meaning" idiots you mentioned earlier |
| 00:16 |
mircea_popescu |
because the bureaucracy DOES speak english. |
| 00:16 |
decimation |
I remember those heady days, when it was thought that it wouldn't be possible to 'make money' off of foss |
| 00:16 |
decimation |
now I wish the money would go away |
| 00:16 |
mircea_popescu |
it would have been, if someone added bitcoin to pgp |
| 00:17 |
mircea_popescu |
and pushed the holy trifecta through |
| 00:17 |
mircea_popescu |
but who ? |
| 00:17 |
decimation |
RMS |
| 00:17 |
decimation |
lol |
| 00:17 |
mircea_popescu |
people tend to be very laudative of the people that were smart, at any juncture |
| 00:17 |
mircea_popescu |
nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you." |
| 00:17 |
BingoBoingo |
Ah, the great thing about PGP is that GPG 1.4x fork won |
| 00:17 |
mircea_popescu |
well, except for terrorist me, of course, in a piece about romania's 80s generation. but that's besides the point. |
| 00:17 |
BingoBoingo |
<mircea_popescu> nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you." << My brother the dentist does if you get him drunk. |
| 00:18 |
decimation |
yeah actually bitcoin is a great example of the link I posted yesterday, about technologies that *should* have been invented in the past but were not |
| 00:18 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo that's not happenstance. that shit will happen again and again because it happened for fundamental reasons. |
| 00:18 |
mircea_popescu |
stan's fork will win the bitcoin through the same interplay of the same cosmic forces. |
| 00:18 |
BingoBoingo |
mircea_popescu: The problem I when he presents it is that not everyone wants to marry a large SJW, even if it means the dog you get in exchange is adorable |
| 00:19 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo larger problem : men don't generally get that they have the god fucking given right to say "fuck you and get lost" |
| 00:19 |
mircea_popescu |
"door's that way" and variations thereof. |
| 00:19 |
asciilifeform |
obligatory naggum: 'suppose you thought of the new millennium when you wrote your application back in 1972 -- not only wouldn't you be invited to the party, those who knew you had done it right from the start and who probably laughed at you at the time would positively hate you now, and they sure as hell wouldn't tell people about you. and the more stupid they are, the more important it would be to pretend tha |
| 00:19 |
asciilifeform |
t nobody was smart enough to see the next millennium coming.' |
| 00:19 |
mircea_popescu |
prolly because only trolls and terrorists do that or something. |
| 00:20 |
BingoBoingo |
Indeed. Yes dentist brother gets his $600 bezzel per working day, but youngest brother for some reason doesn't share dentist brother's deviance. |
| 00:20 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform this millenium, nobody actually saw. perhaps an excusable oversight, but still ridoinculous. |
| 00:20 |
mircea_popescu |
bitcoin + pgp + foss would have been a much better alternative past than fucktarded "flower power" |
| 00:20 |
joecool |
!s dentist |
| 00:20 |
assbot |
45 results for 'dentist' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=dentist |
| 00:21 |
decimation |
indeed it makes RMS's retarded diatribes look more retarded |
| 00:21 |
BingoBoingo |
Dentist brother is an absolute hoot around marine cousins though, with their memories of ship board dentistry |
| 00:22 |
BingoBoingo |
mircea_popescu: But tis is the past! |
| 00:22 |
mircea_popescu |
decimation that passion could have served a smarter man better you know ? |
| 00:23 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, no point crying over the mud-like stupidity of our parents. |
| 00:23 |
mircea_popescu |
fuck them, move on, plenty of time left in the future to do important shit. |
| 00:23 |
BingoBoingo |
The newest past was born in January 2013 |
| 00:24 |
BingoBoingo |
The TiDerps were slain, righteous had a path, and Bitcoin was cemented in the following months |
| 00:36 |
scoopbot |
New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/ |
| 00:36 |
BingoBoingo |
^ ISIL Coin |
| 00:38 |
mircea_popescu |
http://jim.com/ << the page of the author of the prev quote, one James A. Donald |
| 00:38 |
assbot |
James's Liberty file collection index |
| 00:39 |
mircea_popescu |
(with http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/reign.html ) |
| 00:39 |
assbot |
James A. Donald's Reign of Error | Anarchist Writers |
| 00:41 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker --market all |
| 00:41 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 393.93, vol: 48451.68950503 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 387.0, vol: 27136.32982 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 392.0, vol: 133267.08674263 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 393.05, vol: 44.95610677 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.424576, vol: 602246.15620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 76.28428452 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.52026, vol: 218.25432093 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message) |
| 00:42 |
BingoBoingo |
I wonder how long the Chinese will suffer Buterin's Waterfall before forcing a showdown on the matter of STFUSA |
| 00:44 |
BingoBoingo |
Nao just feels so much like 11/12 |
| 00:46 |
BingoBoingo |
Or when Nixon banished the rest of the press corps so he could talk to Hunter S. Thompson about football |
| 00:46 |
asciilifeform |
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f14/Volume%201%20NNSA.pdf << mega-turd. i don't expect that anyone will read it. but i did. and will relate, how obscenely it brags about the extraordinary bezzle of the u.s. 'national ignition facility' |
| |
↖ |
| 00:47 |
asciilifeform |
where, for no reason that has ever been publicly explained, laser-initiated fusion is diddled |
| |
↖ |
| 00:47 |
asciilifeform |
to no result, as far as is known, ever, at any point |
| 00:48 |
asciilifeform |
real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing. |
| 00:48 |
BingoBoingo |
How many cover pages do they need |
| 00:49 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: to cut to the chase, grep for 'ignition' |
| 00:49 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally, this document is a fine example of the kind of stereotypically-bureaucratic style of writing usg runs on. |
| 00:49 |
asciilifeform |
almost a 'newspeak' |
| 00:52 |
BingoBoingo |
!up u00 |
| 00:59 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71422 @ 0.00044167 = 31.545 BTC [-] |
| 01:00 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8778 @ 0.00044497 = 3.9059 BTC [+] |
| 01:02 |
BingoBoingo |
!up dgeats |
| 01:02 |
dgeats |
ty |
| 01:03 |
dgeats |
;;eregister dgeats 1A76 4B0F 58BF 87CB C03D 5A4E A6D2 72BC 41B0 824A |
| 01:03 |
gribble |
Error: '1A76' is not a valid GPG key id. Please use the long form 16 digit key id. |
| 01:04 |
dgeats |
;;eregister dgeats A6D272BC41B0824A |
| 01:04 |
gribble |
Error: Could not retrieve your key from keyserver. Either it isn't there, or it is invalid. |
| 01:07 |
BingoBoingo |
Ah |
| 01:07 |
BingoBoingo |
The perils of the first time |
| 01:10 |
BingoBoingo |
!up bagels7 |
| 01:10 |
dgeats |
BingoBoingo I feel like I’m putting my private keys and passwords EVERYWHERE |
| 01:10 |
dgeats |
aren’t they supposed to be private!!? |
| 01:11 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: PM, I'll halp troubleshoot to a point, but yes. Private keys stay private. If one of those strings you entered is a private key... Generate a new keypair. |
| 01:11 |
dgeats |
dude I’ve been trying for over a week |
| 01:11 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: PM, I'll walk you through. |
| 01:17 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker |
| 01:17 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 392.06, Best ask: 392.95, Bid-ask spread: 0.89000, Last trade: 392.95, 24 hour volume: 48213.33310422, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.170513306 |
| 01:21 |
dgeats |
In the WoT I’m in the WoT hello bitcoin-assets!!! |
| 01:21 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ident dgeats |
| 01:21 |
gribble |
Nick 'dgeats', with hostmask 'dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98', is not identified. |
| 01:21 |
BingoBoingo |
Edward James Almost? |
| 01:21 |
dgeats |
dammit! |
| 01:21 |
dgeats |
ok I’ll go back to lurking |
| 01:23 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: No, finish your fucking registration. You needed help, help is offered, get this shit over with while someone has patience. |
| 01:24 |
BingoBoingo |
!up tryphe |
| 01:24 |
dgeats |
I’m definitely still trying searching through my open tabs on where to start |
| 01:24 |
BingoBoingo |
!up vexual |
| 01:25 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: Well, you could always ask vexual |
| 01:25 |
BingoBoingo |
!up Vexual |
| 01:25 |
RagnarDanneskjol |
http://www.contravex.com/2014/09/23/please-to-pgp-guide-for-linux-os-x-windows/ |
| 01:25 |
assbot |
Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski |
| 01:25 |
dgeats |
Vexual is this a PM? |
| 01:26 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: This is main channel |
| 01:26 |
dgeats |
familiar with that page |
| 01:27 |
dgeats |
so I’m going to go to the GPG Keychain again and get another pair of keys? |
| 01:28 |
BingoBoingo |
dgeats: Are you familiar with http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/pgpgpg-guide/ |
| 01:28 |
assbot |
PGP/GPG Guide | Bingo Blog |
| 01:29 |
BingoBoingo |
And http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication |
| 01:29 |
assbot |
GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki |
| 01:30 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26011 @ 0.00043228 = 11.244 BTC [-] |
| 01:32 |
dgeats |
BingoBoingo Not as familiar with your blog, I’ll read through it |
| 01:34 |
BingoBoingo |
!up dgeats |
| 01:41 |
BingoBoingo |
!up RetroUpriser |
| 01:41 |
BingoBoingo |
!up bagels7 |
| 01:41 |
RetroUpriser |
Hello |
| 01:41 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker |
| 01:41 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 394.63, Best ask: 394.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.36000, Last trade: 393.77, 24 hour volume: 48234.83273786, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.033997412 |
| 01:41 |
BingoBoingo |
Hallo |
| 01:41 |
RetroUpriser |
Is there a market for overnight shipping of raw milk? |
| 01:41 |
RetroUpriser |
Its only legal to buy in CT |
| 01:41 |
Vexual |
I reckon |
| 01:42 |
RetroUpriser |
and for, ahem, generous donations, id be willing to send some raw milk |
| 01:42 |
Vexual |
plenty of hipsters |
| 01:43 |
Vexual |
what whats CT? kentucky? |
| 01:43 |
BingoBoingo |
RetroUpriser: I'm not a big fan of Brucellosis |
| 01:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Vexual: CT is connecticut |
| 01:43 |
Vexual |
oh |
| 01:44 |
BingoBoingo |
!up CheckDavid |
| 01:44 |
BingoBoingo |
!up Ginux |
| 01:45 |
thestringpuller |
Hartford, CT my birthplace |
| 01:45 |
BingoBoingo |
The number of Homo genus members that acquires Brucellosis in Brucellosis free states amuses me |
| 01:46 |
RetroUpriser |
Anyone getting Brucellosis in a Brucellosis free state should be funny |
| 01:46 |
BingoBoingo |
Happens more often than you might suspect |
| 01:47 |
Vexual |
is it bad? |
| 01:47 |
BingoBoingo |
Vexual: Can be very bad |
| 01:48 |
RetroUpriser |
If you have no access to modern medicine |
| 01:49 |
BingoBoingo |
RetroUpriser: Even if. The responsible bacteria produces a good number of toxis so an antibiotic killing it creates a peak exposure to those during treatment |
| 01:50 |
RetroUpriser |
And i wouldnt say raw milk is the #1 way to contract it |
| 01:50 |
BingoBoingo |
Far from it, raw milk and beastiality are the only real ways to contract it |
| 01:50 |
RetroUpriser |
Which wont cause much damage unless your a pregnant woman |
| 01:50 |
RetroUpriser |
undercooked meat i'd say. |
| 01:51 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh, Brucellosis mostly kills peds patients |
| 01:51 |
RetroUpriser |
You should just avoid low quality food products. |
| 01:51 |
RetroUpriser |
in general. |
| 01:51 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38850 @ 0.00044708 = 17.3691 BTC [+] {2} |
| 01:51 |
BingoBoingo |
Indeed |
| 01:52 |
RetroUpriser |
But in the same sense, avoid all natural probiotic foods because they could be contaminated with harmful bacteria? |
| 01:52 |
Vexual |
raw milk is used for some cheeses perhaps? |
| 01:52 |
RetroUpriser |
No doubt, but so is pasturized milk. |
| 01:53 |
BingoBoingo |
Well the thing is something cultured with the right stuff doesn't give the wrong stuff the chance to live and you can tell by smell. It's why cheese and yogurt are safe but raw milk is a highway to the dangerzone |
| 01:53 |
RetroUpriser |
But no more than eating a medium rare steak from the cow producing it |
| 01:53 |
Vexual |
I have half a recolection that some chesse recipies prefer raw |
| 01:54 |
RetroUpriser |
But yeah the good bacteria will fight the bad |
| 01:54 |
BingoBoingo |
RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight |
| 01:55 |
RetroUpriser |
So you'd think but i'm sure that isn't the case alot of the time |
| 01:55 |
BingoBoingo |
On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit |
| 01:55 |
RetroUpriser |
Would you smell it in the raw milk? |
| 01:55 |
BingoBoingo |
In raw milk you often can't smell it. |
| 01:56 |
RetroUpriser |
Right, im sure there are alot of cases where meat could be infected and not show the slightest sign of it |
| 01:57 |
BingoBoingo |
Which is why if the milk was raw yu want it in already fermented products where either dangerous smells would be stronger or the product wouldn't appear right. Milk itself is dangerous though. |
| 01:57 |
RetroUpriser |
Bottom line is that you shouldn't expose yourself to unclean products when you know they are of shady origin. But when you have a local farm that you can check out and see its sanitary conditions yourself.. it takes alot of the risk out of the picture. |
| 01:57 |
BingoBoingo |
Meat usually isn't so bad because there's less vulnerable surface area than milk |
| 01:57 |
RetroUpriser |
I suppose, but im a huge fan so the risk < reward |
| 01:58 |
BingoBoingo |
In milk generally all of the protein and fat globules contribute to surface area |
| 01:58 |
RetroUpriser |
I mean, i wouldn't be drinking raw milk from walmart brand cows |
| 01:58 |
BingoBoingo |
I mean the surface is better defined by... solidity |
| |
~ 24 minutes ~ |
| 02:22 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing. <<< what sense does that make ? |
| 02:24 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo they don't have endemic brucellosis in the us anymore do they ?! |
| 02:26 |
BingoBoingo |
mircea_popescu: Not in any animal herds, but somehow children still get it |
| 02:26 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe it's from the us weapons stockpile. |
| 02:27 |
BingoBoingo |
Basically for all of the expense and derping, USDA can't actually guarentee its own guarentees |
| 02:27 |
mircea_popescu |
that's a thing nixon is never remembered for, ending the biological warfare stockpiles. |
| 02:27 |
mircea_popescu |
hadn't he done so, you'd probably have heard spineless gonzalez, bharara et all argue for the legitimacy of their use. |
| 02:28 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, romania is a few of the european states that never had it. along with, iirc, switzerland. |
| 02:29 |
BingoBoingo |
Last I heard, USia was spicing up 9-11 with bioweapons own goals |
| 02:31 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight << nah, most of the stuff youi can get that way you don't see. |
| 02:32 |
mircea_popescu |
trichinella is a fucking worm you still won't likely see it. |
| 02:32 |
BingoBoingo |
You see that more in pork than beef |
| 02:33 |
mircea_popescu |
sure. |
| 02:33 |
mircea_popescu |
beef is safer than most meats, but still. you dun see the stuff. |
| 02:35 |
BingoBoingo |
I mean the reason to avoid rare-ish ground beef is more sloppy meatcutters opening the colon than anything else |
| 02:35 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit <<< im pretty sure nobody milks unwashed anymore. |
| 02:35 |
mircea_popescu |
for decades now. |
| 02:36 |
BingoBoingo |
You would think so, but in USia it isn't possible to pay enoug for a farmhand who cares to |
| 02:38 |
BingoBoingo |
I mean over here we grow fucking Dent corn for the sugar and actual sweet corn as a table vegetable |
| 02:38 |
mircea_popescu |
look at that, nif claims it actually went energy-positive last year |
| 02:38 |
mircea_popescu |
i had nfi. |
| 02:38 |
* |
BingoBoingo is enjoying the Sauds playing their version of Buterin's waterfall atm |
| 02:41 |
* |
BingoBoingo hasn't seen gas this cheap since 2010. |
| 02:41 |
BingoBoingo |
Not regularly this cheap pre-2009 in some years |
| 02:42 |
BingoBoingo |
Though winter of 2009 was beautiful with sub $2 per gallon gasoline. |
| 02:43 |
mircea_popescu |
how much is it now ? |
| 02:44 |
BingoBoingo |
$2.69 |
| 02:45 |
mircea_popescu |
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192126-lockheed-says-itll-make-a-truck-sized-fusion-reactor-within-10-years << and from the bold claims department... |
| 02:45 |
assbot |
Lockheed says it’ll make a truck-sized fusion reactor within 10 years | ExtremeTech |
| 02:45 |
mircea_popescu |
he reduced size just 10 feet by 7 feet will allow Lockheed to design, build, and test the CFR in less than a year. |
| 02:46 |
mircea_popescu |
how the fuck is a miniaturized version easier is beyond me. |
| 02:47 |
BingoBoingo |
I guess fuckups are easier to insure on a smaller reactor? |
| 02:47 |
BingoBoingo |
!up Vexual |
| 02:47 |
BingoBoingo |
Vexual: Y u no blog yet??? |
| 02:48 |
mircea_popescu |
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline |
| 02:48 |
assbot |
Cold fusion reactor verified by third-party researchers, seems to have 1 million times the energy density of gasoline | ExtremeTech |
| 02:48 |
mircea_popescu |
no shortage of bold claims it seesm |
| 02:49 |
BingoBoingo |
Eh, might as well get the bold claims in now, before the whips come |
| 02:51 |
mircea_popescu |
something on the magnitude order of getting fusion to work is pretty much the only way out of the slump for teh west. |
| 02:52 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh, but without fears of a Stalin, they only way to develop it requires insuring it. |
| 02:52 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe. |
| 02:52 |
mircea_popescu |
lots of free money may help there. |
| 02:53 |
BingoBoingo |
Only for so much longer |
| 02:55 |
Vexual |
I wonder how small they can go if smaller is easier |
| 02:55 |
Vexual |
oh, it says |
| 02:58 |
BingoBoingo |
!up jacoblyles |
| 03:03 |
Vexual |
BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet??? kalyhost stole my moeneyz |
| 03:16 |
BingoBoingo |
!up dgeats |
| 03:16 |
Vexual |
still parsing the history of pgp |
| 03:17 |
BingoBoingo |
Ah |
| 03:17 |
Vexual |
i guess |
| 03:18 |
BingoBoingo |
!up Vexual |
| 03:20 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker --market all |
| 03:20 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 392.43, vol: 48264.10238920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 385.95, vol: 24858.0845 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 393.49, vol: 115673.95376961 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 403.87, vol: 39.1832539 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.973731, vol: 599526.01520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 70.24819212 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.322256, vol: 174.64115222 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message) |
| 03:20 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh, the Chinese lead the drop tonight |
| 03:22 |
BingoBoingo |
https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin << lol |
| 03:22 |
assbot |
Auroracoin |
| 03:28 |
BingoBoingo |
!up bagels7 |
| 03:33 |
mircea_popescu |
https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin/comments/2icorq/what_killed_auroracoin/ << lolok. |
| 03:33 |
assbot |
What killed Auroracoin? : auroracoin |
| 03:34 |
mircea_popescu |
and since we're doing the internet sewer, https://bitcointa.lk/threads/definitive-proof-that-satoshi-nakamoto-is-james-a-donald.320588/ |
| 03:34 |
assbot |
Definitive proof that Satoshi Nakamoto is James A. Donald. | Bitcointa.lk |
| 03:34 |
dgeats |
;;gettrust dgeats |
| 03:34 |
gribble |
Currently authenticated from hostmask dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98. Trust relationship from user dgeats to user dgeats: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=dgeats&dest=dgeats | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dgeats | Rated since: never |
| 03:35 |
Vexual |
woot |
| 03:35 |
dgeats |
sup b-a |
| 03:35 |
BingoBoingo |
Whatever happened to Sir Reginald GreyhawK? |
| 03:36 |
mircea_popescu |
nothing much. |
| 03:36 |
mircea_popescu |
his cover being inadvertently blown, he retired. |
| 03:37 |
Vexual |
what happened with your hitler portait? |
| 03:38 |
BingoBoingo |
On that note it's bedtime and MP's BitBet penny sports bet nightmare is over. |
| 03:40 |
Vexual |
what's your story dgeats? |
| 03:41 |
dgeats |
I know nothing about computers and I’m 31 y/o |
| 03:41 |
mircea_popescu |
so what do you do ? |
| 03:41 |
dgeats |
I sell real estate |
| 03:42 |
dgeats |
I’m a “REALTOR” |
| 03:42 |
BingoBoingo |
Wait, so the FBI lives in your butt? |
| 03:43 |
dgeats |
wouldn’t take it from such jerks |
| 03:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Or is that just-Tor |
| 03:43 |
dgeats |
no kidding |
| 03:43 |
mircea_popescu |
where ? |
| 03:43 |
dgeats |
all very new to me |
| 03:43 |
dgeats |
tor browsers and irc everything |
| 03:43 |
mircea_popescu |
no i mean, realtor where. |
| 03:44 |
dgeats |
Humboldt County, CA ;) |
| 03:44 |
dgeats |
for real though |
| 03:44 |
dgeats |
been here for the past 10 years or so |
| 03:45 |
dgeats |
about a week into the logs, lots and lots to catch up on |
| 03:45 |
mircea_popescu |
;;rate dgeats 1 CA realtor, he says. |
| 03:45 |
gribble |
Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user dgeats has been recorded. |
| 03:47 |
Vexual |
thats almost bens neck of the woods |
| 03:47 |
mircea_popescu |
dgeats pm assbot !up |
| 03:49 |
dgeats |
in real estate not by accident, it’s still a major part of the economy |
| 03:49 |
cazalla |
wonder if 8chan mystery donator is in here |
| 03:49 |
dgeats |
I wonder what property rights are like in Romania |
| 03:50 |
mircea_popescu |
dgeats they are bizarre at best. |
| 03:50 |
dgeats |
not “a bundle of rights” like in the states? |
| 03:52 |
mircea_popescu |
i wrote a little about the nuttery of it, back in romanian days. lemme see if i can find it. |
| 03:54 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00044062 = 6.1246 BTC [-] |
| 03:55 |
mircea_popescu |
http://pastebin.com/AgUhmsB1 |
| 03:55 |
assbot |
http://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/ http://trilema.com/2 - Pastebin.com |
| 03:55 |
mircea_popescu |
apparently i wrote a lot. |
| 03:56 |
dgeats |
hmmm can’t make it out ha ha |
| 03:58 |
mircea_popescu |
:p |
| 03:58 |
mircea_popescu |
remains an enigma |
| 03:59 |
dgeats |
wow you actually did write about real estate in Romania |
| 04:00 |
mircea_popescu |
well yeah ? |
| 04:00 |
Naphex |
ttp://trilema.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/ |
| 04:00 |
Naphex |
damn right click pastes :) |
| 04:01 |
Naphex |
hi o/. |
| 04:01 |
mircea_popescu |
;) |
| 04:01 |
Naphex |
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2m6rp7/hitbtc_about_to_go_mt_gox/ |
| 04:02 |
Naphex |
that exchange smelled hell fishy from day #1 wtf |
| 04:02 |
Naphex |
also exchanges are hard to run, idiots should stop trying |
| 04:06 |
punkman |
!s hitbtc |
| 04:06 |
assbot |
15 results for 'hitbtc' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=hitbtc |
| 04:06 |
punkman |
did they even have any customers? |
| 04:07 |
mircea_popescu |
Naphex im sure "customers" and "experts" will both listen to your #1 and #2 above, yeah. |
| 04:07 |
mircea_popescu |
they tend to read and understand, it's what they do. not like "why should i even bother with the wot" an' stuff. |
| 04:08 |
Naphex |
wot or any due dilligance |
| 04:08 |
Naphex |
punkman: they sure had lots of fake volume |
| 04:08 |
mircea_popescu |
or any thinking. |
| 04:09 |
Naphex |
mircea_popescu: BTCXchange offered SSL Authenticated with GlobalSign.EU, the registration certificate was posted. And all due dilligance info posted |
| 04:09 |
Naphex |
yet then people go well 'Romania!' |
| 04:10 |
mircea_popescu |
yeah, see, you should have had "real brick and mortar stores" in cyprus. |
| 04:10 |
punkman |
Naphex, could have been worse, good thing you aren't Nigerian |
| 04:10 |
mircea_popescu |
much better than europe's highest per capita gold reserve country o.O |
| 04:10 |
Naphex |
punkman: :)) |
| 04:12 |
Naphex |
also lots of eshops going up with btcxpay for btc->ron https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855469.0 |
| 04:12 |
assbot |
Magazine online care acceptă bitcoin prin serviciul de plată BTCXpay.ro |
| 04:14 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79650 @ 0.00043202 = 34.4104 BTC [-] {2} |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
| 04:34 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34000 @ 0.00044201 = 15.0283 BTC [+] {2} |
| 04:42 |
punkman |
nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the \n at eof << it's not really, just doesn't care for anything outside the first and last dash of a gpg message |
| 04:51 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00043076 = 30.304 BTC [-] {2} |
| 05:04 |
mircea_popescu |
heh. |
| 05:04 |
mircea_popescu |
no scoopbot huh |
| 05:06 |
mircea_popescu |
http://esr.ibiblio.org/ << shit, ers had a blog ? |
| 05:07 |
mircea_popescu |
all these years ?! |
| 05:10 |
mircea_popescu |
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too. |
| |
↖ |
| 05:17 |
assbot |
[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1666 @ 0.0012 = 1.9992 BTC |
| 05:27 |
mircea_popescu |
!up pirateoftheapes |
| 05:28 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45116 @ 0.00044343 = 20.0058 BTC [+] {2} |
| |
~ 25 minutes ~ |
| 05:53 |
cazalla |
putin is due to land here within a few hours with obama due in the morning |
| 05:55 |
cazalla |
!up vexual |
| 05:59 |
punkman |
does this have a good signature? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0nULimNT |
| 06:00 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12459 @ 0.00044714 = 5.5709 BTC [+] |
| 06:06 |
Vexual |
apec had those cool steven segal costumes, we prive.. heatwave |
| 06:07 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67807 @ 0.00044716 = 30.3206 BTC [+] {2} |
| 06:16 |
cazalla |
so.. is qntra down for others? |
| 06:16 |
punkman |
yep |
| 06:17 |
cazalla |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920333 lol |
| 06:17 |
assbot |
Logged on 13-11-2014 22:25:37; mircea_popescu: rithm: it's cryptowall now and from what i can tell it's infected sites like mom & pop's ruinning old WP/drupal/some CMS <<< yeah, stuff the shitheads in question don't maintain, then i have to answer biweekly questions of "is qntra down". off with their heads i say! |
| 06:17 |
punkman |
cazalla, could try http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/ |
| 06:18 |
cazalla |
punkman, i'll leave it in the hands of mp |
| 06:22 |
jurov |
punkman: gpg: BAD signature from "RagnarDanneskjol (fuck yo' couch) <admin@bitrecruiter.com>" [neznáme] |
| 06:23 |
punkman |
RagnarDanneskjol: ^ |
| 06:23 |
RagnarDanneskjol |
thanks jurov - figured that out |
| 06:24 |
jurov |
btw, if i'm doing the web submission, what about js verifier? does anyone has it already? |
| 06:24 |
punkman |
you can try that openpgpjs thing, but why? |
| 06:25 |
jurov |
it looks like it needs some server part |
| 06:25 |
jurov |
so i'm asking |
| 06:26 |
jurov |
and i prefer the ability of user to check stuff on his side before uploading text and files |
| 06:26 |
jurov |
although... dunno if js can actually read uploaded files |
| 06:33 |
cazalla |
putin has touched down! |
| 06:34 |
jurov |
lol what? |
| 06:34 |
cazalla |
aus media is talking up putin being here more so than obama |
| 06:37 |
jurov |
what does he want from aussies? |
| 06:39 |
cazalla |
g20 is on and media are playing it off as putin versus our prime minister due to MH17 |
| 06:40 |
jurov |
is that the pencilneck one? or it was canadian PM? |
| 06:41 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33000 @ 0.00044255 = 14.6042 BTC [-] {2} |
| 06:43 |
cazalla |
no idea, our pm said he was gonna shirt lift putin |
| 06:43 |
cazalla |
shirtfront even |
| 06:44 |
davout |
cazalla: fyi qntra is unreadable on my mobile |
| 06:44 |
cazalla |
davout, it's down atm or are you speaking generally |
| 06:45 |
davout |
generally |
| 06:46 |
cazalla |
i'll speak with BingoBoingo and see what we can, might be a plugin that will make it more mobile friendly |
| 06:46 |
cazalla |
can do* |
| 06:48 |
davout |
disabling all CSS would be fine |
| 06:48 |
davout |
that's the advantage with sites that are lightly styled, they usually degrade much better when disabling CSS |
| 07:00 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43900 @ 0.00044844 = 19.6865 BTC [+] {2} |
| 07:01 |
jurov |
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Mp_0iIUAAcNdn.jpg:large |
| 07:02 |
jurov |
^ just for the mood |
| |
~ 45 minutes ~ |
| 07:48 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45000 @ 0.00043999 = 19.7996 BTC [-] {2} |
| 07:56 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 423 @ 0.00316761 = 1.3399 BTC [+] {3} |
| 08:05 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70500 @ 0.00043719 = 30.8219 BTC [-] {2} |
| |
~ 31 minutes ~ |
| 08:37 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25693 @ 0.00043813 = 11.2569 BTC [+] {2} |
| |
~ 17 minutes ~ |
| 08:54 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39850 @ 0.00043902 = 17.4949 BTC [+] |
| 08:55 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75045 @ 0.00043536 = 32.6716 BTC [-] {3} |
| |
~ 25 minutes ~ |
| 09:20 |
punkman |
for future reference: "gpgv" is somewhat smaller than the fully-blown gpg and uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid. |
| 09:35 |
davout |
punkman: "uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid" <<< sounds sketchy |
| 09:36 |
punkman |
well it's official, but maybe |
| 09:40 |
gernika |
BingoBoingo: I liked the IsisCoin story. |
| 09:52 |
BingoBoingo |
Thanks gernika |
| 09:55 |
notary |
[trust-update] added: dgeats |
| 10:01 |
BingoBoingo |
http://deadspin.com/maybe-you-shouldnt-thank-this-specific-follower-patrio-1658660978 << Perils of automation |
| 10:01 |
assbot |
Maybe You Shouldn't Thank This Specific Follower, Patriots? |
| |
~ 28 minutes ~ |
| 10:29 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77600 @ 0.00043407 = 33.6838 BTC [-] {2} |
| 10:38 |
BingoBoingo |
http://qntra.net/2014/11/imperial-college-host-bitcoin-technology-competition-for-students/ |
| 10:45 |
The20YearIRCloud |
RentalStarter has set their 12th monthly dividend payment today. Total per share is 0.00002537 |
| 10:46 |
BingoBoingo |
;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.paymentssource.com/news/interchange/kim-kardashians-lessons-for-the-bitcoin-card-industry-3019708-1.html |
| 10:47 |
gribble |
The operation succeeded. |
| 10:54 |
mats_cd03 |
im hurting from s.mpoe taking a dive |
| 10:57 |
The20YearIRCloud |
why'd it dive? |
| 10:58 |
mats_cd03 |
no idea. |
| 10:58 |
BingoBoingo |
It's a mystery |
| 11:12 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11862 @ 0.00043393 = 5.1473 BTC [-] |
| 11:14 |
danielpbarron |
;;isitdown trilema.com |
| 11:14 |
gribble |
trilema.com is up |
| 11:16 |
Duffer1 |
;;isitdown qntra.net |
| 11:16 |
gribble |
qntra.net is up |
| 11:16 |
Duffer1 |
lies |
| 11:17 |
danielpbarron |
yeah both appear down to me, from 3 different ips |
| 11:19 |
asciilifeform |
same |
| 11:22 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker |
| 11:22 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 390.86, Best ask: 391.5, Bid-ask spread: 0.64000, Last trade: 391.87, 24 hour volume: 41838.99860218, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 431.59, 24 hour vwap: 403.110014299 |
| 11:27 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MG] 21111 @ 0.00009 = 1.9 BTC [-] {2} |
| 11:33 |
BingoBoingo |
!up so |
| 11:46 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38012 @ 0.00043244 = 16.4379 BTC [-] {2} |
| |
~ 50 minutes ~ |
| 12:37 |
jurov |
re:putin http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/russia-says-fleet-of-warships-is-off-australia-for-climate-research/story-fnpebfcn-1227123047034?nk=944f472ed8ac245182d4622953d08019 |
| 12:37 |
assbot |
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian |
| 12:45 |
assbot |
[HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 400 @ 0.00652083 = 2.6083 BTC [+] {22} |
| 12:46 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51800 @ 0.00043144 = 22.3486 BTC [-] {2} |
| |
~ 17 minutes ~ |
| 13:03 |
jurov |
$proxies |
| 13:03 |
empyex |
jurov: Proxies: mpex.bz mpex.ws mpex.co mpex.biz mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91 |
| 13:03 |
empyex |
jurov: MPEx-Status: mpex.biz (94 milliseconds), mpex.co (117 milliseconds), mpex.bz (168 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (552 milliseconds), mpex.ws (2112 milliseconds) |
| 13:03 |
empyex |
jurov: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √ |
| 13:03 |
jurov |
;;isup mpex.ws |
| 13:04 |
gribble |
mpex.ws is up |
| 13:04 |
jurov |
http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again |
| 13:04 |
assbot |
CoinBr Live S.MPOE |
| |
~ 22 minutes ~ |
| 13:27 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00043461 = 1.8688 BTC [+] |
| 13:34 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo yeah im sure lol. |
| 13:38 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17600 @ 0.00043048 = 7.5764 BTC [-] |
| 13:41 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56300 @ 0.00043043 = 24.2332 BTC [-] {2} |
| 13:45 |
mircea_popescu |
cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal |
| 13:45 |
assbot |
Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal |
| 13:47 |
xanthyos |
i wish they showed the equation |
| 13:47 |
mircea_popescu |
dailykos, it doesn't do equations, they're racist. |
| 13:48 |
BingoBoingo |
Nice work MP |
| 13:49 |
mircea_popescu |
http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ < i dunno if this lulz was here. |
| 13:49 |
assbot |
Page not found – ibiblio |
| 13:50 |
mircea_popescu |
cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others? << uh i just looked at it. |
| 13:53 |
mircea_popescu |
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/ << lawl. |
| 13:53 |
assbot |
Bitcoin-Trader.Biz - Insolvent - CryptoCoinsNews |
| 13:53 |
mats_cd03 |
funny how there's no mention of USD being worth <0.1% of BTC if it goes to 1mn BTCUSD |
| 13:54 |
mircea_popescu |
how you reason ? |
| 13:56 |
asciilifeform |
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1344589/54989752#c16 << extra lulzy |
| 13:56 |
assbot |
Daily Kos :: Comments: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal |
| 13:58 |
mircea_popescu |
jurov: what does he want from aussies? <<< russia needs military bases overseas like kim kardashian needs horsecock. |
| 13:59 |
mircea_popescu |
Bitcoin software does not appear to be vetted to such an extend. << the english-t to d migration is soooo indicative of a native romanian speaker you can't imagine. |
| 14:00 |
asciilifeform |
and u.s. illiterates. |
| 14:00 |
mircea_popescu |
is it ? |
| 14:00 |
asciilifeform |
aha. |
| 14:00 |
mircea_popescu |
i've not commonly seen it outside of ro hack-kiddies speaking english |
| 14:01 |
mircea_popescu |
or for that matter, my own output lol. |
| 14:01 |
mircea_popescu |
davout: disabling all CSS would be fine << he has a point there, just de-css-ify it for mobile, will be fine. |
| 14:01 |
asciilifeform |
i've probably crapped out every conceivable kind of mistake (when hammering in real time. text that i get to read again before broadcast - another matter) |
| 14:02 |
mircea_popescu |
most mobile platforms have spent more money on making their thing work on unstyled websites than we ever will on qntra. |
| 14:02 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform just about, as one gets tired stuff starts to mutate. |
| 14:02 |
asciilifeform |
fingers - will of their own. |
| 14:03 |
asciilifeform |
http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/notation-as-a-tool-for-thought-wavelets-in-j << for aficionados of peculiar programming systems |
| 14:03 |
assbot |
Notation as a tool for thought: Wavelets in J | Locklin on science |
| 14:04 |
BingoBoingo |
mircea_popescu: I gave the viewport tag one last tweak, next step is yeah, just denying mobiles any styling at all beyond what they bring on their own |
| 14:04 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48277 @ 0.00043473 = 20.9875 BTC [+] {2} |
| 14:05 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform just between you and me and nobody else : i very much doubt the average j user actually has the mental acumen to correctly understand the actual effects of recursive transforms available to them, wavelets or no wavelets. |
| 14:05 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: lol! you know actual 'j' users?! |
| 14:06 |
mircea_popescu |
you think coders are bad, just wait till you see mathematicians apply automated processes to statistical samples. |
| 14:06 |
mircea_popescu |
a few... |
| 14:06 |
asciilifeform |
not confusing with 'r' ? |
| 14:06 |
mircea_popescu |
well no |
| 14:07 |
* |
asciilifeform must have slept through the re-appearance of 'j' |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
as far as i can see, it's the common step away from excel |
| 14:07 |
asciilifeform |
i wanted a book on 'j' 5 or so years ago, had to go to a library with spy camera. |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
once people crash their system trying to load 1mn cells for the 1kth time |
| 14:08 |
asciilifeform |
around here, the 'common step away from excel' is 'r'. |
| 14:08 |
asciilifeform |
(open-source statistical gizmo, vaguely reminiscent of 'octave') |
| 14:08 |
mircea_popescu |
does it work on windows ? |
| 14:08 |
asciilifeform |
afaik yes. |
| 14:09 |
mircea_popescu |
apparently. well then i dunno. |
| 14:13 |
mircea_popescu |
jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again <<< it does, esp the week view. o.O look at that. |
| 14:13 |
assbot |
CoinBr Live S.MPOE |
| 14:14 |
BingoBoingo |
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/an-open-letter-to-jason-king-of-seans-outpost |
| 14:14 |
assbot |
An Open Letter to Jason King of Seans Outpost | Lets Talk Bitcoin |
| 14:14 |
mircea_popescu |
who;s this guy again ? |
| 14:16 |
asciilifeform |
'This sort of illogic is rampant in debates about cold fusion, particularly when experts respond to irritating, unwelcome suggestions made by amateurs. They start out cautioning the amateur that instruments such as calorimeters have a margin of error, and calorimeters frequently malfunction with leaking cooling fluid and other problems. When the expert senses the message is not getting through, and the amateur |
| 14:16 |
asciilifeform |
still believes that cold fusion calorimetry indicates real excess heat, the frustrated expert may resort to extreme, untenable claims, such as a statement that no calorimeter has an error less than 10%, when in fact the error margin for top-quality conventional instruments is on the order of 0.1%. Or he may wave his hands and say calorimeters are so undependable that you cannot run one for more than a few days |
| 14:16 |
asciilifeform |
without recalibrating, when in fact a good one will run reliably for months.' ( http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf ) |
| 14:16 |
asciilifeform |
^ very interestingly perverse comparison of the 'titanic' aftermath and that of 'cold fusion' |
| 14:17 |
BingoBoingo |
mircea_popescu: The homeless bitcoin camp |
| 14:17 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform this is true tho. you familiar witrh playing pokler at all ? |
| 14:17 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo oh oh. mkay. |
| 14:17 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: on the vary basic level. |
| 14:17 |
asciilifeform |
*very |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
do you know what meta coincepts are, like "playing loose" or "tight" ? |
| 14:18 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
now, thinking obviously has nothing to do with poker |
| 14:18 |
asciilifeform |
although 'tilt' might be the more relevant pokerism |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
persuasion, however, is exactly that, poker reskinned. |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
the most significant error of judgement made by experts as far as i've seen yet is |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
when confronted with an inept player they loosen up their game |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
this is so idiotic as to defy sufficient expression. |
| 14:19 |
asciilifeform |
almost as if they were living creatures trying to conserve energy or something |
| 14:19 |
mircea_popescu |
the #1 reason it is idiotic is that the inept player may actually and usually does notice the loosening, and takes this as a honest signal that the expert is bluffing |
| 14:19 |
mircea_popescu |
on the, bluffs here, bluffs everywhere heuristic |
| 14:20 |
mircea_popescu |
the #2 reason it is idiotic is that discussion has remanence, poker hands do not. expert 30 years in has a fucking string of noted down examples of having done this, people with an ideologic interest can use to strangle him with |
| 14:20 |
asciilifeform |
aha. |
| 14:20 |
mircea_popescu |
this is something a politician is keenly aware of, but since the expert's brain actually functions, he's no politician. |
| 14:20 |
asciilifeform |
the linked article is at least partly about this. |
| 14:21 |
asciilifeform |
see also james randi's notes on how physicists are easily fooled by methods that fool not one stage magician |
| 14:21 |
mircea_popescu |
yup. |
| 14:21 |
mircea_popescu |
"gotta play the audience" means exactly that. |
| 14:21 |
mircea_popescu |
being a physicist doesn't make one immune, only diffusion makes one immune. |
| 14:21 |
asciilifeform |
robert wood was probably the one notable exception to this blindness. |
| 14:22 |
asciilifeform |
was an unambiguous master of both magics. |
| 14:22 |
mircea_popescu |
i suppose this also wraps right back up into wavelets lol. |
| 14:22 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform he was an engineer. |
| 14:22 |
asciilifeform |
;;google robert wood n-rays |
| 14:22 |
gribble |
N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray>; Robert W. Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Wood>; Blondlot and N-rays - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com: <http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html> |
| 14:22 |
mircea_popescu |
this is the definition of an engineer. |
| 14:23 |
asciilifeform |
wood was a proper, full-bore polymath. |
| 14:23 |
asciilifeform |
which, i suppose, includes engineering. |
| 14:27 |
asciilifeform |
'If it ever becomes generally known that cold fusion is real, how will the scientists who opposed it react? A few may take responsibility and go down with the ship, retiring from academic life. I hope that most will regret their actions, and try to prevent such a thing from occurring again. Some will react the way Lightoller did, blaming Pons and Fleischmann. They may say the traditions and customs of science a |
| 14:27 |
asciilifeform |
re more important than experimental results. Lightoller, in effect, put traditions and customs ahead of the lives of passengers. To him, the experience of years and what we have always done outweighed all practical suggestions as to what we might do instead, to avoid killing thousands of people.' |
| |
↖ |
| 14:27 |
asciilifeform |
story time. i don't personally have any truck with fusion, cold or not; |
| 14:28 |
asciilifeform |
but the phenomenon described above is entirely the root of the al schwartz equivalence principle violation experiment |
| 14:28 |
asciilifeform |
or rather, lack of experiment, because the entire sub-field formed a 'solid blue wall' against herr schwartz |
| 14:28 |
asciilifeform |
for the reason stated in the 'titanic' article. |
| 14:30 |
asciilifeform |
modern-day physicists want a demonstrable equivalence principle violation the way they want horsecock. |
| 14:30 |
asciilifeform |
or bullet in head. |
| 14:32 |
BingoBoingo |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/11230144/Twitter-rated-as-junk-by-SandP-shares-drop-5pc.html |
| 14:32 |
assbot |
Twitter rated as 'junk' by S&P, shares drop 5pc - Telegraph |
| 14:33 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform i diun get it, who would be opposed to cold fusion and why ? |
| 14:34 |
asciilifeform |
the folks who built careers on (promise of) the 'hot' variety. |
| 14:34 |
mircea_popescu |
los_pantalones can i buy any ws puts off you btw ? |
| 14:34 |
asciilifeform |
(just one example) |
| 14:34 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess... |
| 14:34 |
asciilifeform |
under the bezzle, there is very little profit in solutions. |
| 14:34 |
los_pantalones |
ha, TWTR put ? |
| 14:34 |
asciilifeform |
in prolonging agony - quite a bit. |
| 14:34 |
los_pantalones |
why don't you list stuff like that on mpex ? |
| 14:34 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno, maybe im unbecomingly naive, but to my eyes cold fusion working is an event of such magnitude, it'd trigger an Auld Lang Syne moment. |
| 14:35 |
mircea_popescu |
los_pantalones well for lack of a mm actually. |
| 14:35 |
los_pantalones |
hmm |
| 14:35 |
mircea_popescu |
ifsomeone wanted to manage a portofolio of ws shortness for btc, it'd prolly rock. |
| 14:35 |
mircea_popescu |
!up cypherc |
| 14:36 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: try to picture how bitcoin would have been treated, even in the embryonic stage, if the implications for the next xxx years from it, were entirely obvious to all. |
| 14:36 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59788 @ 0.00043289 = 25.8816 BTC [-] {2} |
| 14:36 |
mats_cd03 |
;;calc calc [ticker --last]/(10**6) |
| 14:36 |
gribble |
Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) |
| 14:36 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe. |
| 14:37 |
mats_cd03 |
;;calc [ticker --last]/(10**6) |
| 14:37 |
gribble |
0.00039599 |
| 14:37 |
asciilifeform |
auld lang syne, lol. |
| 14:37 |
mircea_popescu |
except free enerngy is quite unlike bitcoin. |
| 14:37 |
asciilifeform |
horst wessel lied. |
| 14:38 |
mats_cd03 |
mircea_popescu: to rephrase, the dollar would have lost 99.99% of its value on the trip to 1mn BTCUSD |
| 14:38 |
mircea_popescu |
mats_cd03 only ~50%. |
| 14:42 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform no, seriously, cold fusion would actually make the "local production" stuff that link earlier was harping about a reality. |
| 14:42 |
asciilifeform |
would make many things. |
| 14:42 |
asciilifeform |
e.g., laser pistol. |
| 14:42 |
mircea_popescu |
it's the one card out that could save teh current usg / societal structure. |
| 14:43 |
mircea_popescu |
i can't imagine anyone'd manage to supress it if it could work. |
| 14:43 |
asciilifeform |
quite a few of the ancient science-fictional machines of early 20th c. imagination. |
| 14:43 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: this is why i mentioned schwartz example. |
| 14:43 |
asciilifeform |
very often, 'works' is like early lisp machine. |
| 14:43 |
asciilifeform |
unwieldy, ruinously expensive, terrible ROI. |
| 14:43 |
asciilifeform |
faraday's 'what use is a baby.' |
| 14:44 |
asciilifeform |
baby - can kill with one hand. |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno. |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe. |
| |
↖ |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
Lightoller is a particularly bad example, by the way. |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
his decisions were correct on the deck. |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
a ship is sinking is undisputably the worst time to be going out doing "research". |
| 14:45 |
mircea_popescu |
the fundamntal understanding of this is illustrated by the case made for giving people tenure and shit. research is an activity of the safe, which is why prisons and other emperor of the flies situations aren't conducive to proving the fermat conjecture. |
| 14:45 |
asciilifeform |
well, yes |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
author of linked piece takes issue with l's conduct pre-sinking. |
| 14:46 |
mircea_popescu |
when a ship is sinking, the officer is to do EXACTLY what's done. |
| 14:46 |
mircea_popescu |
ah like that. |
| 14:46 |
mircea_popescu |
mebbe. |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
see pg. 9. |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
'C: What I want to suggest to you is that it was recklessness, utter recklessness, in view of the conditions |
| |
↖ |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
which you have described as abnormal, and in view of the knowledge you had from various sources that |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
ice was in your immediate vicinity, to proceed at 21.5 knots. |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
L: Then all I can say is that recklessness applies to practically every commander and every ship crossing |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
the Atlantic Ocean.' |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
he's essentially sticking to the 'flondor defence.' |
| 14:47 |
asciilifeform |
'everybody did it.' |
| 14:47 |
mircea_popescu |
i don't think they understood ice will crush the ship, tbh. |
| 14:47 |
asciilifeform |
curious why mr. l did not say this, then. |
| 14:47 |
mircea_popescu |
they thought they had built the lenin |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
why do you think lol. |
| 14:48 |
asciilifeform |
the 'uncrushable' thing was more of a marketing literature, tbh |
| 14:48 |
asciilifeform |
folks who actually made their living on ships, knew better. |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
let me model why : if i'm in that situation and you ask me that, i'ma in typical style go "wel lfrankly, i didn't believe that ice can crush steel. sue me." |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
so they'd hang me. |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
that means either i don't have kids or my kids don't do so well. |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
meanwhile, l goes "well...derp" |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
did they hang him ? |
| 14:48 |
mircea_popescu |
so therefore! |
| 14:49 |
asciilifeform |
'nobody ever got hanged for buying ibm stock.' |
| 14:49 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe they knew better, hard to know what individuals knew or thought. but imo, they honestl ybelieved ice is now butter, because forward britannia! |
| 14:50 |
Adlai |
!s isis currency |
| 14:50 |
assbot |
2 results for 'isis currency' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=isis+currency |
| 14:50 |
asciilifeform |
speaking of ice... |
| 14:50 |
asciilifeform |
http://news.yahoo.com/nations-last-big-icebreaker-endures-despite-age-214106918.html |
| 14:50 |
assbot |
Nation's last big icebreaker endures despite age - Yahoo News |
| 14:50 |
BingoBoingo |
Adlai: been qntra'd http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/ |
| 14:50 |
assbot |
ISIS Introduces Coins | Qntra.net |
| 14:50 |
Adlai |
^^ this is fantastically unrelated to bitcoin |
| 14:51 |
Adlai |
this is about as related to bitcoin as it would be if south sudan were to mint its own pound... oh wait, they did. where's qntra on that? |
| 14:51 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai terrorism. one degree of separation. |
| 14:52 |
Adlai |
ok, i'll admit, isiscoin serves to attract investment capital away from bitcoin, and acts as a potentially stabler store of value for dollar-averse wealth |
| 14:52 |
Adlai |
let's short bitcoin! |
| 14:53 |
BingoBoingo |
Well, a lot of the problems Bitcoin solves aren't relevant to ISIS |
| 14:53 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform btw, that boer war fort thing ? lol! |
| 14:54 |
asciilifeform |
wai wat |
| 14:55 |
mircea_popescu |
lightoller, back during his time in the navy, was on a ship visiting south africa during the boer war |
| 14:56 |
mircea_popescu |
got out in the night, put the boer flag on the local fort, filled a cannon with a blank shot and a long fuse and well... |
| 14:56 |
mircea_popescu |
gave the locals a start. |
| 14:56 |
asciilifeform |
ahaha |
| 14:57 |
Adlai |
BingoBoingo: "and the later is simply for hire" << what's "the later"? |
| 14:58 |
BingoBoingo |
Adlai: The professional Derps |
| 14:58 |
BingoBoingo |
People who enjoy Buterin's waterfall |
| 14:59 |
BingoBoingo |
ALong with the sort of marketing shill who just wants a check and will endorse any idiocy |
| 15:04 |
BingoBoingo |
;;bc,stats |
| 15:04 |
gribble |
Current Blocks: 330024 | Current Difficulty: 39603666252.418 | Next Difficulty At Block: 330623 | Next Difficulty In: 599 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40043955200.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.11174 |
| 15:09 |
Adlai |
!s cryptolocker usg |
| 15:09 |
assbot |
1 results for 'cryptolocker usg' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=cryptolocker+usg |
| 15:10 |
Adlai |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-07-2014#756099 << who's to say that isn't cryptolocker itself? |
| 15:10 |
assbot |
Logged on 15-07-2014 02:55:38; asciilifeform: 'swamp donkey' << lol! apparently a usg version of 'cryptolocker' |
| 15:10 |
* |
Adlai just had a conversation with assbot |
| 15:17 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: you must remember, we have not yet escalated to 'full throttle.' |
| 15:17 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88400 @ 0.00042788 = 37.8246 BTC [-] {3} |
| 15:18 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: there will come the day when winblows users dumb enough to run hotwallet will find their coin magicked away. |
| 15:18 |
mircea_popescu |
this has been reported sporadically since 2012 |
| 15:18 |
mircea_popescu |
iirc that's when the first windows wallet stealer trojan was reported. |
| 15:18 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: but today is not that day. and when it comes, it will be coated in enough parallel construction to kill a herd of elephants. |
| 15:18 |
mircea_popescu |
back then it was a big deal, wallets being unencrypted. |
| 15:18 |
Adlai |
ssh, you're leaking ideas to the fbi agents on the line |
| 15:19 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: speaking not of wallet stealing trojan, but of 'xxxx coin wandered off with no plausible explanation, forensic showed nothing untoward' |
| 15:19 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. winblows is the ultimate trojan per se. |
| 15:19 |
Adlai |
how can you vanish coins without leaving a forensic trail? |
| 15:19 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno how win forensics work |
| 15:20 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: when anyone bothers - very laboriously, largely manually-cranked. |
| 15:20 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: a skilled turdmeister (especially of the privvy-to-microshit-remote-orifice variety) will leave nothing to find. |
| 15:21 |
mircea_popescu |
so then there's nothing remarkable here. |
| 15:21 |
Adlai |
also, a skilled thief would target other stacks after/while people start leaving the brokenest one |
| 15:21 |
asciilifeform |
well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. |
| 15:22 |
asciilifeform |
i inevitably picture a hunter, trying to avoid 'spooking' the birds |
| 15:22 |
asciilifeform |
inching closer, wants to bag more than one. |
| 15:23 |
asciilifeform |
i predict that when the hunter 'shoots', it will be 'spun' to look like a 'protocol' (or even crypto) break, of one kind or another |
| 15:23 |
asciilifeform |
with the inevitable shitgnome 'fixes' brought out |
| 15:25 |
asciilifeform |
while lies, of the 'false flag' variety, may not be the only tool in the buggers' toolbox - it is certainly their favourite. and perhaps the sharpest. |
| 15:25 |
mircea_popescu |
<asciilifeform> well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. <<< reddit is not, contrary to what it tells itself, relevant to bitcoin |
| 15:25 |
mircea_popescu |
99% of bitcoin users, according to what people think, use windows. |
| 15:25 |
mircea_popescu |
99% of bitcoin belongs to the remaining 1% |
| 15:26 |
asciilifeform |
if only winblows were confined to some magical reddit kingdom, where all stupid folks live. |
| 15:26 |
mircea_popescu |
in short, there's a very deep valley between "windows user who thinks himself into bitcoin because he recognises the term" and "bitcoin user". |
| 15:26 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform jeffidiocy manages to keep idiots with benefits away from bitcoin altogether. |
| 15:27 |
* |
asciilifeform has no data on the present state of the btc musical chairs landscape and cannot say |
| 15:27 |
mircea_popescu |
i tell you, the anthropology of this thing has been an endless source of fascination to me |
| 15:27 |
mircea_popescu |
it's almost like watching a cell react in an infection, all sorts of bizarro mechanisms that you don't even dare declare exist seem to work in werido ways. |
| 15:27 |
asciilifeform |
likely - we will get to watch (or, feel on skin...) all of the available mechanisms. |
| 15:28 |
mircea_popescu |
maybe. doubt it. |
| 15:29 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: jeffidiocy << there we go. herr lightoller's, too. |
| 15:30 |
asciilifeform |
'best practices of the sea.' |
| 15:30 |
mircea_popescu |
yeah, but see that it actually "serves", depending how you put the goals on the table |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, to quote a bronx tale : |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
Come over here. Sit next to me. You must be pretty upset after the Yankees lost. |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
Bill Mazeroski, I hate him. He made Mickey Mantle cry. The papers said the Mick cried. |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $ a year. How much does your father make? |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
I don't know. |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
You don't know. If your dad needs money, go ask Mickey Mantle. See what happens. Mickey Mantle don't care about you. Why care about him? Nobody cares. |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
the way people today construct their mental representations of groups and belonging is nothing short of mindblowing. |
| 15:35 |
mircea_popescu |
i mean, it used to be the case for children. but biological adults today are psychologically infantile, and this is by very far the most obvious effect. |
| 15:35 |
xanthyos |
it's tribal imprinting |
| 15:35 |
mircea_popescu |
what's that mean ? |
| 15:35 |
asciilifeform |
xanthyos: actual 'tribal' dynamics are 2-way. |
| 15:35 |
xanthyos |
without strong tribes or famlies to take these cues from they'll seek it elsewhere |
| 15:36 |
mircea_popescu |
at least in our classical understanding thereof. |
| 15:36 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41253 @ 0.00042986 = 17.733 BTC [+] {2} |
| 15:36 |
mircea_popescu |
xanthyos the bizarre part is that they somehow manage to seek it in imagination. |
| 15:37 |
mircea_popescu |
pretty much the only tech left that works in the english speaking world is the tech that manipulates this at first view pathological "one way belonging" thing. |
| 15:37 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess we could call it "marketing" for lack of terminology. |
| 15:38 |
mircea_popescu |
http://trilema.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ << amusingly enough, it's mostly NOT government issue. |
| 15:38 |
assbot |
“You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.” pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. |
| 15:38 |
mircea_popescu |
in fact, the usg seems moreover its prey than anything. |
| 15:38 |
xanthyos |
i've seen a video of a duck nursing from a cat because its own mother was gone. |
| 15:38 |
asciilifeform |
duck!?!?! |
| 15:38 |
assbot |
Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/11ARGS0.txt ) |
| 15:38 |
asciilifeform |
!b 2 |
| 15:39 |
* |
asciilifeform goes out to shop for duck milk |
| 15:39 |
xanthyos |
if you can convince your customer that you can literally breastfeed them they'll trust you forever |
| 15:39 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform how do you think they make duck tape ? |
| 15:39 |
mircea_popescu |
polymerized duck galactose. |
| 15:39 |
xanthyos |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqTHhdCQko |
| 15:39 |
assbot |
Cat nurses Ducklings - YouTube |
| 15:39 |
* |
asciilifeform remembers very fine soviet chocolates 'bird's milk' |
| 15:40 |
mircea_popescu |
romania has "chicken milk", http://www.culinar.ro/retete/dulciuri/creme/lapte-de-pasare-iese-sigur/46/2/6925/ |
| 15:40 |
assbot |
Lapte de pasare (iese sigur) - Culinar.ro |
| 15:40 |
xanthyos |
it's sad when they actually seek out mickey mantle to get reciprocation though |
| 15:41 |
undata |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo << the "need to belong" |
| 15:41 |
assbot |
Juggalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
| 15:41 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: this may actually be the very same filling as in 'bird's milk' |
| 15:41 |
mircea_popescu |
prolly. |
| 15:41 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D1%8C%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE_(%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F) |
| 15:41 |
assbot |
Птичье молоко (кулинария) — Википедия |
| 15:42 |
mats_cd03 |
http://thestack.com/chakravarty-tor-traffic-analysis-141114 via /. |
| 15:42 |
mircea_popescu |
lol your percentile language |
| 15:42 |
asciilifeform |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptasie_mleczko << apparently englisch exists |
| 15:42 |
assbot |
Ptasie mleczko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
| 15:42 |
mircea_popescu |
ow shit that LOOKS like excellent chocolate. |
| 15:42 |
mircea_popescu |
exactly the right sheen. damn you stanislav! |
| 15:43 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally i get these in usa. though no idea for how much longer. |
| 15:43 |
asciilifeform |
afaik poroshenko runs the factory. |
| 15:43 |
undata |
the juggalo thing is a bizarre example of marketing turning into some weird semblance of a 2-way belonging |
| 15:44 |
asciilifeform |
(or perhaps not. i do know he's corralled a good fraction of the 'russian' confections business) |
| 15:44 |
mircea_popescu |
;;ud juggalo |
| 15:44 |
gribble |
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=juggalo | juggalo. For the most part, an uneducated, pathetic excuse for a human being who listens to the group ICP who are bold enough to actually consider themselves ... |
| 15:45 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: american white trash who literally dress like clowns |
| 15:45 |
TomServo |
Here's a comical introduction to Juggalos for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulGaxBPk2jI&list=UUfR7gRIYmZbGjhhrRJCwpmw |
| 15:45 |
assbot |
Joe Goes JUGGALO - YouTube |
| 15:45 |
undata |
they apparently have a whole religion |
| 15:45 |
mircea_popescu |
some sort of insane clown o nm that's what icp means huh |
| 15:45 |
asciilifeform |
mats_cd03: iirc the method was published before, some months ago |
| 15:45 |
TomServo |
they follow icp, yes |
| 15:45 |
mircea_popescu |
sorta glam-punk offshot thing |
| 15:45 |
asciilifeform |
mats_cd03: made no major splash, for some reason |
| 15:47 |
asciilifeform |
mats_cd03: traffic analysis is easy, cheap, fun. consider analogy of the children's game 'sea battle.' |
| 15:47 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32839 @ 0.00042556 = 13.975 BTC [-] {2} |
| 15:47 |
mircea_popescu |
dude, topless chicks being a big deal, you already know you must be in ameristan |
| 15:47 |
mircea_popescu |
im not even sure whats more ridiculous, the rednecks or the mainstream. |
| 15:47 |
asciilifeform |
or how one might determine the electrical circuits in an old house (by unscrewing breakers at random) |
| 15:48 |
cazalla |
mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal <<< great and informative article! |
| 15:48 |
assbot |
Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal |
| 15:48 |
mircea_popescu |
cazalla lol they di what they can |
| 15:50 |
mats_cd03 |
asciilifeform: i'm surprised it took this long. its been alive. what. 10+ years? |
| 15:51 |
mats_cd03 |
not the doing of the analysis, but dissemination of results |
| 15:52 |
asciilifeform |
mats_cd03: they print now, not wishing to risk obsolescence |
| 15:52 |
mircea_popescu |
mats_cd03 it didn't take this long, that tor was routinely compromised was an open secret. |
| 15:52 |
mircea_popescu |
course, when i said so last year the derps went on derping, but why would the derps count here. |
| 15:53 |
* |
asciilifeform found it very surprising that tor survived as a going concern after 'heartbleed' |
| 15:53 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform something tells me i won't be getting the "mp's blog, first place to announce tor is shit, a year or so ago" all over the "tech" "press". just like i didn't get the "mp forces wikileaks to release unedited cables by publishing the romanian subset" a few years back |
| 15:54 |
mircea_popescu |
because why report, right, there's all these fucktards that need to wonder "what mainstream nobody agrees with mp", as if that's the fucking criteria nao, we vote for knowledge. |
| 15:54 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-06-2014#700916 |
| 15:54 |
assbot |
Logged on 04-06-2014 00:08:26; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the buggers' traditional defense is to pretend that the event was a non-event - or, if this is impractical, to continue living in an imaginary world where they 'scooped' the story first, and all of the 'unsanctioned' discussion never happened. |
| 15:55 |
mircea_popescu |
myeah. and this matters, because the non-wot world is like, totally a world and anything, and what happens outside of b-a ctually happens, and non-notarized documents actually carry weight and everything |
| 15:55 |
mircea_popescu |
trust teh power of dreamz! |
| 15:55 |
asciilifeform |
'we have always been at war with [east|eur]asia.' |
| 15:56 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, this is the best of all worlds, tbh. i'd get really pissy in short order if reddit actually knew what's what |
| 15:56 |
mircea_popescu |
and i couldn't get out of bed without 5000 "hey mp, what do you think of this toaster" "is bitcoin going up i must know because of my 0.05 btcent investment!" |
| 15:56 |
asciilifeform |
reddit, as i understand, is a world of 'class 3' learners - 'must piss on electric fence himself' |
| 15:57 |
mircea_popescu |
if this is true, how did they come to the conclusion women dislike being raped ? |
| 15:57 |
mircea_popescu |
not that it's false, but they're not women. so... how ? |
| 15:58 |
asciilifeform |
not clear that these folks have an actual take on the subject. parroting usg religion - yes. |
| 15:58 |
mircea_popescu |
that's learning no ? |
| 15:58 |
asciilifeform |
but on the subject of, e.g., tor, they have both words and deeds. |
| 15:58 |
asciilifeform |
and will end up learning from the electric fence. |
| 15:58 |
mircea_popescu |
very much doubt it. |
| 15:58 |
asciilifeform |
are, in fact, already being taught by it |
| 15:59 |
mircea_popescu |
imo, they're 4th level learners. will not learn from thought ; nor from other |
| 15:59 |
mircea_popescu |
s experience, nor from their own. |
| 15:59 |
asciilifeform |
'the hunchback will be straightened by his grave.' |
| 15:59 |
mircea_popescu |
will ONLY learn from fiction, inasmuch as they find a way to link it to their own fiction. |
| 15:59 |
mircea_popescu |
basically, to teach a muppet something you must construct a literary work which jives with the preexisting dreamworld he inhabits |
| 15:59 |
nubbins` |
closed encounters of the 4th kind |
| 15:59 |
mircea_popescu |
which is how they all "learned" all about mordor. |
| 16:00 |
asciilifeform |
it does happen that 'fanons' conflict, though. |
| 16:01 |
mircea_popescu |
they don't know how to compute whether x option ios better than y option in any situation, but they do know you don't just walk into mordor |
| 16:01 |
mircea_popescu |
of course it does, but so ? energy states in a semiconductor also conflict, in the abstract |
| 16:01 |
mircea_popescu |
what's that do for any cell ? |
| 16:01 |
asciilifeform |
somebody had an essay on 'knowledge vs. suggestively-named strings' |
| 16:01 |
mircea_popescu |
where ? |
| 16:02 |
asciilifeform |
http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~alexs/classes/2011_Spring_585X/readings/02_Principles/AI_Meets_Natural_Stupidity.pdf |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 16:02 |
asciilifeform |
ancient scan. |
| 16:02 |
asciilifeform |
not readily deturdifiable. |
| 16:02 |
asciilifeform |
but is an iconic cult-classic (mcdermott, 1976) |
| 16:03 |
mircea_popescu |
lmao the title promises |
| 16:04 |
asciilifeform |
it's an epic paper, that not merely rained but pissed on the exuberant 'ai' parade of the '70s academe. |
| 16:04 |
nubbins` |
skim milk is rotten |
| 16:04 |
nubbins` |
it's fucking grey |
| 16:05 |
mircea_popescu |
ew |
| 16:05 |
asciilifeform |
'programs to a great degree are problems rather than solutions. If a researcher tries to write an "understanding" program, it isn't because he has thought of a better way of implementing this well-understood task, but because he thinks he can come closer to writing the implementation. If he calls the main loop of his program "UNDERSTAND ', he is (until proven innocent) merely begging the question. He may mislea |
| 16:05 |
asciilifeform |
d a lot of people, most prominently himself, and enrage a lot of others.' |
| 16:07 |
mircea_popescu |
lol |
| 16:09 |
asciilifeform |
weizenbaum, author of iconic 'eliza', also understood how little a mechanism really needs to 'understand' in order to give an idiot the illusion of 'understanding.' |
| 16:10 |
asciilifeform |
(not related to above, but a contemporary) |
| 16:10 |
mircea_popescu |
'It follows that he cannot know that certain people at certain times do not understand in Parry-or Eliza-like ways. That is to say, he has no way of knowing that we do not ourselves sometimes function by means of "clever tricks".' actually, i will go as far as to say that it is always certainly the case understanding happens through "clever tricks" |
| 16:10 |
mircea_popescu |
it is NEVER the case anyone ever understood anything whatsoever in any case at any point in human history |
| 16:10 |
mircea_popescu |
[self]delusion to the contrary notwithstanding. |
| 16:10 |
asciilifeform |
he is thinking of another variety of clever tricks. |
| 16:11 |
asciilifeform |
the mechanized stage magic of eliza |
| 16:11 |
mircea_popescu |
is he ? |
| 16:11 |
mircea_popescu |
that's exactly what i mean. |
| 16:11 |
asciilifeform |
i'd have to disagree that 'understand' is a null-word. |
| 16:11 |
mircea_popescu |
go right ahead, but what else do you bring ? |
| 16:12 |
asciilifeform |
people have never been seen to, e.g., rotate themselves in 4th d. and end up rechiralled. but they do occasionally understand things. |
| 16:12 |
asciilifeform |
at least, beyond 'eliza' level. |
| 16:13 |
mircea_popescu |
let us not discuss this in terms of understanding, something we care about. let us instead discuss in terms of love, something we don't care about. |
| 16:13 |
asciilifeform |
? |
| 16:13 |
mircea_popescu |
so : your idea of understanding would be in fact "transformative love". ie, it'd give you the ability to turn, if not marble into virgin, at least whore into housewife. |
| 16:13 |
mircea_popescu |
dja think this was ever displayed ? |
| 16:14 |
* |
asciilifeform must confess he is rather puzzled at this point |
| 16:14 |
mircea_popescu |
whyssat ? |
| 16:15 |
asciilifeform |
well, if i had to give an example of 'understanding', involving 'transformation', i'd offer the transformation of pebbles on a beach (original 'calculation') into well, calculation, and mathematics, and, ..., nukes. |
| 16:15 |
mircea_popescu |
nah. |
| 16:15 |
asciilifeform |
wide net, but somewhere in it there flops a fish, 'understanding' |
| 16:16 |
undata |
one of you is using understand in a much stricter sense than the other. |
| 16:16 |
mircea_popescu |
the sort of understanding you propose is a relationship between mind and object that's transcendental. the ready comparison is the supposed transcendental relation between man and woman. |
| 16:16 |
mircea_popescu |
outside of this, all that's left is eliza-understanding. |
| 16:16 |
mircea_popescu |
and, obviously, fucking. ie, a manipulation of the subject according to the rules of the reality it inhabits. |
| 16:17 |
mircea_popescu |
what eliza does, what no strings attached sex is. |
| 16:17 |
mircea_popescu |
if you recognise a naive romanticism in one field, the other should also be obvious. |
| 16:17 |
mircea_popescu |
all women are whores and all thinkers are eliza. |
| 16:17 |
asciilifeform |
all microscopes are hammers. |
| 16:17 |
nubbins` |
all scarves are farts |
| 16:17 |
mircea_popescu |
the ability of whores to distinguish themselves from "those cheap streetwalkers" is not that important globally. |
| 16:18 |
mircea_popescu |
having more to do with ego and stress than anything |
| 16:18 |
undata |
"modeling is by definition incomplete" ? |
| 16:18 |
mircea_popescu |
undata if you will. asciilifeform yes, essentially, which is why the microscope hammer thing never persuaded me. |
| 16:19 |
* |
asciilifeform is firmly persuaded that every microscope is a hammer. however, not every hammer is a microscope, demonstrably. and therein lies the boojum. |
| 16:19 |
mircea_popescu |
not every hammer is a microscope TO YOU |
| 16:19 |
mircea_popescu |
not every whore is a partner you'd entertain, but that has little to do with the principles involved. |
| 16:20 |
asciilifeform |
the principle involved, i must confess, escapes me |
| 16:20 |
mircea_popescu |
let's approach on a different tack. |
| 16:20 |
asciilifeform |
and i'm not altogether certain that i'd profit from grasping it |
| 16:21 |
mircea_popescu |
what is the method through which i could write software that distinguishes between actual science and global-warming-science ? |
| 16:21 |
asciilifeform |
even the elixir of distinguishing cat from dog by mechanical means, so far escapes programmers. |
| 16:21 |
asciilifeform |
who would even dare to ask about sciences. |
| 16:22 |
mircea_popescu |
well, the reason might be that there couldn't be such a thing. there's nothing that makes "good science" better than a pile of shanonized papers. |
| 16:22 |
mircea_popescu |
you can test them, of course, but this is practically speaking aesthetics. |
| 16:22 |
asciilifeform |
aha i see where this is going. |
| 16:23 |
mircea_popescu |
so, yeah. all thinkers are eliza, the distinguishing among elizas, like among whores, purely an application of one's own aesthetic preference. |
| 16:23 |
nubbins` |
no true eliza would offer such an argument |
| 16:23 |
asciilifeform |
'don't worry, sizzling in electric chair, ohm's law is a lie' |
| 16:24 |
asciilifeform |
the difference between the flesh before and after, 'aesthetic preference' |
| 16:24 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform are you a current dreaming it's frying a butterfgly etc |
| 16:24 |
nubbins` |
and somewhere, somewhen, the sound of keys clacking on a keyboard was heard |
| 16:24 |
asciilifeform |
l0l |
| 16:24 |
nubbins` |
ha |
| 16:24 |
undata |
"gravity" holds the moon to the earth |
| 16:24 |
nubbins` |
_/ -_- _/ |
| 16:25 |
mircea_popescu |
undata the argument mind, isn't that some eliza-trees don't make much better looking reality-clothes than others. |
| 16:25 |
mircea_popescu |
the argument is whether they're actually different. |
| 16:25 |
mircea_popescu |
if one function returns rnd(0,15) and the other rnd(20,42) it is easy to establish which returns the larger number, |
| 16:25 |
mircea_popescu |
but that doesn't mean they're not the same damned function. |
| 16:26 |
asciilifeform |
afaik western traditions of sophistry are not even the most die-hard adherents of this idea. in some variants of islam, they actually believe that 'if the circuit works, it was will of allah' and nothing more |
| 16:26 |
mircea_popescu |
and the brain is in no sense and to no degree a logic processing machine. |
| 16:26 |
nubbins` |
<+mircea_popescu> the argument is whether they're actually different. <<< in the sense that each game of wol is actually different |
| 16:26 |
asciilifeform |
and today perhaps the allmighty favours ohm's law, tomorrow - not |
| 16:26 |
mircea_popescu |
nor, ironically, are actual logic processing machines all that intelligent. |
| 16:26 |
mircea_popescu |
to us at least. |
| 16:26 |
mircea_popescu |
nubbins` quite. |
| 16:27 |
asciilifeform |
brain is logic machine like brick is flying machine. |
| 16:27 |
mircea_popescu |
pretty much yeah. |
| 16:27 |
mircea_popescu |
"it can be made to" |
| 16:27 |
asciilifeform |
in precisely that way. |
| 16:28 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: I'm still chewing on "different" how? |
| 16:28 |
nubbins` |
relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKrskPyBuI |
| 16:28 |
assbot |
TripTank - Stoned Ape Theory - YouTube |
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
not that any of these subtle considerations have any sort of practical effect or importance, |
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
but since the article spoke of "substance" in thought... well... |
| 16:29 |
mircea_popescu |
there's no substance to thought. |
| 16:29 |
undata |
nubbins`: flashback to 19, tripping like hell, trying to find a firm thought to stand upon |
| 16:29 |
asciilifeform |
the idea in the article can (and has) been rephrased like this. if you remove all the 'suggestively-named strings' like 'understand' - and replace with 'gensyms' - e.g., 100324 - does the resulting machine still do or even appear to do anything of interest? |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 16:30 |
nubbins` |
undata terrorizing realization that no such thing exists, etc |
| 16:30 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform but my point is that this argument misses the very point of what thought is. |
| 16:30 |
undata |
nubbins`: I started laughing my ass off and gave up |
| 16:30 |
mircea_popescu |
that's what thought is, entirely, all the time : suggestively named strings. |
| 16:30 |
asciilifeform |
say, if it was able to distinguish cat from dog, and now operates an automated dogcatcher, prior to the renaming of strings, and still can - there was 'substance.' |
| 16:30 |
mircea_popescu |
to the code. |
| 16:31 |
mircea_popescu |
ok, let me phrase it thus : |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
mp's lemma of artificial intelligence requires any computer program that exhibits in fact ai to depend in its functioning on the naming of its functions, and that self-metaprogramming be a part of its working. |
| 16:32 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: remember the self-evolving fpga? |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
ok, great example. |
| 16:32 |
asciilifeform |
the one where not a single thing about the circuit made sense to the human dissector |
| |
↖ |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
that thing IS intelligent, just like me and you and the dragonfly. |
| 16:32 |
asciilifeform |
but for the fact that it worked. |
| 16:32 |
asciilifeform |
where are the namings? |
| 16:33 |
mircea_popescu |
how would i know ? |
| 16:33 |
asciilifeform |
we might be speaking of different things then, re: 'names' |
| 16:33 |
mircea_popescu |
ok, let's re-rephrase : |
| 16:33 |
mircea_popescu |
any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. |
| 16:33 |
asciilifeform |
what 'ai and stupidity' was about, was an actual pestilence of pseudoscience, where folks convinced themselves and others that they were accomplishing 'great things' while really pulling each other's dicks in a most stultifying way |
| 16:34 |
mircea_popescu |
o for sure, im not even getting into the point of the article. i just went on a tangent for objection reasons, like i do. |
| 16:34 |
asciilifeform |
ahahaha. |
| 16:34 |
* |
undata tries to create an arbitrary symbol in his mind |
| 16:34 |
asciilifeform |
;;google gensym |
| 16:34 |
gribble |
Gensym | Real-Time Management of Mission Critical Systems: <http://www.gensym.com/>; Product | Gensym: <http://www.gensym.com/en/product>; Gensym G2 2011 EDITIONS – Product Detail | Gensym: <http://www.gensym.com/en/product/G2> |
| 16:35 |
undata |
Core dumped. |
| 16:35 |
asciilifeform |
damn, sp4mz0rs |
| 16:35 |
asciilifeform |
;;google gensym common lisp |
| 16:35 |
gribble |
GENSYMs - Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM): <http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_gensym.htm>; Macros: Defining Your Own - gigamonkeys: <http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html>; hygiene-versus-gensym - Community-Scheme-Wiki: <http://community.schemewiki.org/?hygiene-versus-gensym> |
| 16:35 |
asciilifeform |
^ best representation of the concept i know of |
| 16:36 |
asciilifeform |
creates a symbol with no meaning other than identity (cannot add, subtract it, it only has a name and the only permitted operation is determination of identity) |
| 16:36 |
asciilifeform |
and, well, assignment |
| 16:36 |
undata |
hm |
| 16:36 |
mircea_popescu |
i don't think that violates my restatement. |
| 16:37 |
asciilifeform |
it's a humble tool, no ai to it at all |
| 16:37 |
asciilifeform |
a 'nut' or 'bolt' that i use daily. |
| 16:37 |
mircea_popescu |
well yeah but if it did violate restatement then either i'm wrong or no ai can be made to run on lisp machine. |
| 16:37 |
asciilifeform |
(gensym) just coughs up a guaranteed-unique object. |
| 16:37 |
mircea_popescu |
is this provable to actually work all the time ? |
| 16:38 |
asciilifeform |
until exhausted memory. |
| 16:38 |
mircea_popescu |
hm |
| 16:38 |
asciilifeform |
typically implemented using a counter |
| 16:38 |
mircea_popescu |
that smashes eventually no ? |
| 16:38 |
asciilifeform |
common lisp numeric tower is a bignum tower |
| 16:38 |
* |
mircea_popescu ponders. |
| 16:39 |
asciilifeform |
so, in principle, if the machine were to do nothing but cough up 'gensyms' for a few millenia, you will exhaust memory. |
| 16:39 |
asciilifeform |
depending on how quickly you can increment |
| 16:39 |
asciilifeform |
(and how long machine lasts) |
| 16:39 |
mircea_popescu |
i superficially suspect this discussion proves there can never be turing ai., |
| 16:39 |
mircea_popescu |
lisp machine being turing equivalent |
| 16:39 |
asciilifeform |
(of course, a gensym, if not garbage collected, also occupies a cell of memory) |
| 16:40 |
asciilifeform |
the 'super-turing' machine remains a mystical unicorn. |
| 16:41 |
mircea_popescu |
myeah |
| 16:41 |
asciilifeform |
not that it has been shown not to exist, but has about the same status as 'god' |
| 16:41 |
asciilifeform |
that is, a favourite preoccupation of crackpots of all stripes, and from the whole spectrum of scientific literacy - but no results. |
| 16:42 |
mircea_popescu |
well, the only way to build one may be to first build a planet, then let cnc evolve. |
| 16:42 |
mircea_popescu |
cns* |
| 16:42 |
asciilifeform |
what bothers me most is that most of the 'askers' have no idea what they actually want. |
| 16:43 |
asciilifeform |
(from a hypothetical 'ai') |
| 16:43 |
asciilifeform |
mechanical best friend? |
| 16:44 |
mircea_popescu |
a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house, |
| |
↖ |
| 16:44 |
mircea_popescu |
while no identifiable part of the code deals with housebuilding. |
| 16:45 |
asciilifeform |
not necessarily disputing the hypothesis - but why the preoccupation with non-identifiable parts? |
| 16:45 |
mircea_popescu |
if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
see, we can take this into a place you probably did not intend to go: |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
consider 'langton's ant.' |
| 16:46 |
mircea_popescu |
lets see! |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LangtonsAnt.html |
| 16:46 |
assbot |
Langton's Ant -- from Wolfram MathWorld |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
very simple rules (described on linked article) |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
you can write him yourself and try. |
| 16:46 |
mircea_popescu |
see, that "intend to go" is exactly why the preoccupation with non identifiability. |
| 16:46 |
mircea_popescu |
fuckall cares what i intend. |
| 16:46 |
asciilifeform |
well think to the end. |
| 16:46 |
nubbins` |
<+mircea_popescu> if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. <<< mis lados!! |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
what we know is that everyone who ever tried langton's ant, notices that he always 'builds a road' |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
no matter what is on the playing field at the beginning |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
or what 'bombs' (to use 'war of life' terminology) you drop. |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
sooner or later - he builds it. |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
could be after thousands of moves. |
| 16:47 |
mircea_popescu |
okay. |
| 16:47 |
asciilifeform |
no one has proven anything, afaik, of substance, about whether the ant will always build the road. |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
but experimentally no one has (yet) found counter-example. |
| 16:48 |
mircea_popescu |
so your argument is that ant meets my definition of ai ? |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
well, that part. |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
yes. |
| 16:48 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13889 @ 0.0004217 = 5.857 BTC [-] |
| 16:48 |
mircea_popescu |
how do you identify a highway as a house ? |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
same way you identify a house as a house. |
| 16:48 |
mircea_popescu |
say if you showed this process to 1k randomly selected 5 yos, would they say "it built itself a house" ? |
| 16:49 |
asciilifeform |
who am i to say that a repeating cycle of moves is not 'house' for the automaton. |
| 16:49 |
nubbins` |
^ |
| 16:49 |
mircea_popescu |
to us. |
| 16:49 |
mircea_popescu |
not to it. that's the point. to us. |
| 16:49 |
asciilifeform |
the way that my 4 walls are a repeating cycle of moves to me. |
| 16:49 |
mircea_popescu |
*we* have to recognise what it does. |
| 16:49 |
asciilifeform |
this goes back to my complaint about the ai wishers. they aren't asking for 'intelligence', just a mechanical but recognizable version of themselves |
| 16:50 |
asciilifeform |
or, at least, what they think of as themselves. |
| 16:50 |
mircea_popescu |
well, this definition is, "when you recognise what's being done, but neither why nor how, you're confronted with intelligence" |
| 16:51 |
undata |
seems a lot that passes for human intelligence is driven by autonomous processes evolution carved into us, just like the ant |
| 16:51 |
mircea_popescu |
this is counterintuitive, because we're very ethnicallyclose, so to speak, |
| 16:51 |
nubbins` |
recognize is an overly broad term for this discussion |
| 16:51 |
asciilifeform |
or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. |
| 16:51 |
mircea_popescu |
so we eliza-recognise what WE do on the grounds of culture and convention |
| 16:51 |
mircea_popescu |
when intelligences meet without that basis, superamazement ensues. |
| 16:51 |
undata |
when two of those ants hit each other, do they combine their "houses"? |
| 16:51 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform no, see, it's not a black box. |
| 16:51 |
* |
nubbins` recalls the (clarke?) short story about an intelligent electrical field |
| 16:52 |
Adlai |
excellent turminology, this! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Turmite.html |
| 16:52 |
assbot |
Turmite -- from Wolfram MathWorld |
| 16:52 |
asciilifeform |
this is an ancient argument - 'the sea is very intelligent but we just aren't protocol compatible and can't see that it's even alive' |
| 16:52 |
mircea_popescu |
<mircea_popescu> any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. << this obviously requires you to be allowed under the hood. |
| 16:52 |
asciilifeform |
i have limited patience for it because of the sheer lack of predictive power. |
| 16:52 |
mircea_popescu |
otherwise windows is ai for crying out loud. |
| 16:52 |
undata |
nubbins`: Greg Egan did one with intelligent turbulence |
| 16:52 |
nubbins` |
asciilifeform unfortunately the sea won't be seen as alive until after it's dead D: |
| 16:52 |
asciilifeform |
undata: yes i recall that one. 'dust.' |
| 16:53 |
mircea_popescu |
well it all started with you asking for a definition of ai. |
| 16:53 |
nubbins` |
i recall reading a young adult novel about intelligent crystals |
| 16:53 |
nubbins` |
suspended in fluid iirc |
| 16:53 |
nubbins` |
one of those "my teacher is an alien" type ones |
| 16:53 |
asciilifeform |
undata: in fact, i recall that he had a character who is being marched to a mafia execution, and offered a magic pill before being shot. the pill wakes him up to the idea that his mind is already being simulated on a 'computer' made of space dust, somewhere, if only 'interpreted correctly' |
| 16:53 |
Adlai |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922181 << so do you count an entire beehive/anthill as intelligent, but not any single member individually? |
| 16:53 |
assbot |
Logged on 14-11-2014 21:44:39; mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house, |
| 16:54 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai yes, actually. |
| 16:54 |
mircea_popescu |
perhaps except for the queen, but that's an endless discussion. |
| 16:57 |
mircea_popescu |
<asciilifeform> or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. << incidentally, the brain seems to fit this quite exactly. |
| 16:57 |
nubbins` |
i know people claim that there's an upper bound on the complexity that can form in a cellular-automaton-type system with simple rules |
| 16:57 |
Adlai |
you could roughly equate the queen of an ant colony to a human brain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_formation#Clinical_significance ? |
| 16:57 |
assbot |
Reticular formation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
| 16:57 |
nubbins` |
but i feel like the upper bound is significantly higher than people realize |
| 16:58 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai maybe, but i'm very wary of recent brainscience. |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
nubbins`: none of the claims, for whatever measure of 'complexity', amount to anything more than farts in the wind. |
| 16:58 |
Adlai |
which is why I linked to clinical examples, rather than speculation |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
nubbins`: see the discussion last year of the 'entropy' of the digits of 'pi'. |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
they max out every known measure |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
(save for one.) |
| 16:58 |
Adlai |
would the same happen to an ant colony if you kidnapped the queen? |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
and at the same time, the digits can be spat out by a very simple mechanism. |
| 16:59 |
nubbins` |
asciilifeform i fell into a black hole halfway through my cs/math joint major on points like these |
| 16:59 |
asciilifeform |
(see bailey borwein plouffe.) |
| 16:59 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai generally most ant colonies have emergency backups always ready |
| 16:59 |
mircea_popescu |
if queen dies newborn queen emerges almost immediately. |
| 16:59 |
mircea_popescu |
some collapse tho, for various reasons |
| 16:59 |
asciilifeform |
this is no more surprising than skin on your finger regrowing. |
| 17:00 |
mircea_popescu |
right |
| 17:00 |
Adlai |
in humans neurons, queen damage is recoverable, with assistance from other colonies |
| 17:00 |
mircea_popescu |
well not really, neurons don't regrow like ants do. |
| 17:00 |
asciilifeform |
(there is some dispute re: whether and under what circumstances neurons regrow.) |
| 17:01 |
Adlai |
they could with external support. maybe not today, but it's easily possible within a few hundred years. |
| 17:01 |
mircea_popescu |
as opposed to moderately possible within a few thousand years ? |
| 17:01 |
asciilifeform |
lol! |
| 17:01 |
mircea_popescu |
how'dja compute those parameters ? |
| 17:01 |
nubbins` |
heh. |
| 17:02 |
Adlai |
well my initial random was "certain within decades", but then I toned it down a few orders of fartitude |
| 17:02 |
mircea_popescu |
lol |
| 17:02 |
nubbins` |
i was going to guess you used differential equations |
| 17:02 |
Adlai |
the exact timescale doesn't matter, it'll happen |
| 17:02 |
mircea_popescu |
you can feel it in your urine ? |
| 17:03 |
Adlai |
you don't think this is possible? |
| 17:03 |
undata |
What if certain things are just out of reach? Maybe the complete model is simple, but the approximations leading to it are larger than brains can handle? |
| 17:04 |
nubbins` |
see symbolic integration vs numerical methods |
| 17:04 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai i have no idea, but i suspect your conviction is more informed by a faint whiff of a personal desire to survive/fear of death than anything else. |
| 17:04 |
nubbins` |
undata the complete model has maybe 2 rules tops |
| 17:04 |
Adlai |
of course. i'd say it's less a fear and more an underlying aspiration |
| 17:04 |
undata |
nubbins`: who knows; not I |
| 17:05 |
nubbins` |
nor anyone |
| 17:05 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai why would you want to live forever already. |
| 17:05 |
Adlai |
to see what happens |
| 17:05 |
mircea_popescu |
haven't had enough of idiots yet ? |
| 17:05 |
nubbins` |
i suppose if you want to get cheeky it's (1) wiggle (2) if bumped, wiggle less |
| 17:05 |
mircea_popescu |
yeah, what is going to happen. i wonder. |
| 17:06 |
nubbins` |
we're just starting from a really really complex initial state ;D |
| 17:06 |
asciilifeform |
'live long enough to see the buggers off.' |
| 17:06 |
asciilifeform |
modest aspiration. |
| 17:06 |
mircea_popescu |
lol |
| 17:07 |
Adlai |
:-o "millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" by the guy who died on a Sunday afternoon |
| 17:07 |
asciilifeform |
arse longa, cocka shorta. |
| 17:07 |
asciilifeform |
or what did mircea_popescu say. |
| 17:07 |
undata |
most of the things in my head, somebody/something else put there |
| 17:07 |
Adlai |
although I doubt LA was rainy in june |
| 17:07 |
undata |
not much lost when I die |
| 17:08 |
undata |
and I question the "most" |
| 17:08 |
Adlai |
http://youtu.be/NoAzpa1x7jU |
| 17:08 |
assbot |
Blade Runner - Final scene, "Tears in Rain" Soliloquy (HD) - YouTube |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
'i have seen the ships on fire at the edge of orion...' |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
that one/ |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
. |
| 17:09 |
mircea_popescu |
undata i recall reading this east-side of cold war story (rdg it was i think ?), about the drink that bestowed immortality, and how obnoxious old people were, 700+ yo clinging on to life to "see who wins whatever games" |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
probably one of the best known scenes in all of film. |
| 17:09 |
mircea_popescu |
in fairness, the commies were very well familiar with the problem of just-wont-fucking-die-already dinosaurs |
| 17:09 |
mircea_popescu |
something the us is getting more and more acquainted with. |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
ahahaha lol yes |
| 17:09 |
* |
nubbins` ponders turmite / langton's ant steady states as analogies for steady states in human behaviour |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
;;google gerontocracy |
| 17:09 |
gribble |
Gerontocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy - Merriam-Webster Online: <http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gerontocracy>; Gerontocracy | Define Gerontocracy at Dictionary.com: <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gerontocracy> |
| 17:09 |
asciilifeform |
wow no specifically soviet refs |
| 17:09 |
Adlai |
!s bill maher |
| 17:09 |
assbot |
6 results for 'bill maher' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bill+maher |
| 17:09 |
nubbins` |
somewhere out there, a guy named langton is eating chips on the couch and watching seinfeld. again. |
| 17:09 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform it's the normally sclerotic reaction of society to a dissolution of values |
| 17:10 |
mircea_popescu |
the east destroyed its value system "for socialism" |
| 17:10 |
mircea_popescu |
the west did too, for... well... "fairness" i guess, same bs. |
| 17:10 |
mircea_popescu |
only way to select people now is age, which explains disasters like nanci pelosi |
| 17:11 |
Adlai |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919815 << what'll happen once old people live long enough to form their own tribes/societies? would this be some weird form of speciation? |
| 17:11 |
assbot |
Logged on 13-11-2014 14:50:21; xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kWaKhrpa28 |
| 17:12 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: seems the hive would lose the ability to adapt without some mental youth elixir being invented alongside |
| 17:12 |
mircea_popescu |
but see... because of the "nonviolent principle" or w/e, it doesnt HAVE TO adapt anymore. |
| 17:12 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: for that to work, different definition of 'old' would have to apply. |
| 17:12 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: and the lamb laid down with the lion |
| 17:12 |
* |
undata does big arms |
| 17:13 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: you don't really see, e.g., 40 y.o. 'speciating' into own socity from 30 y.o |
| 17:13 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform you don't get out much, do you ? |
| 17:13 |
asciilifeform |
nope. |
| 17:13 |
nubbins` |
heh |
| 17:13 |
mircea_popescu |
40yo male, with a buncha chicks. 20 yo male, in a group of derps. |
| 17:13 |
mircea_popescu |
quite fucking speciously speciated. |
| 17:13 |
asciilifeform |
opposite arrangement here |
| 17:13 |
mircea_popescu |
hence speciously :D |
| 17:14 |
Adlai |
and i'm wondering what will happen once we have a MUCH wider age range of active individuals |
| 17:14 |
asciilifeform |
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/09/le-vieillard-gros.html << obligatory mr. o on old age |
| 17:14 |
assbot |
ClubOrlov: Le Vieillard Gros |
| 17:14 |
Adlai |
which will certainly happen within decades! |
| 17:14 |
mircea_popescu |
no it wont |
| 17:14 |
mircea_popescu |
part of the reason there's going to be blood is that there's too many old people. |
| 17:14 |
asciilifeform |
flying on cold-fusion (or fart) powered rocket packs, yes. |
| 17:15 |
Adlai |
well, old people who don't keep supporting themselves enough to stay alive without support from other tribes... will die of old age |
| 17:15 |
mircea_popescu |
incidentally, my favourite discussion of the topic is balzac. eugenie grandet. |
| 17:15 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai you don't understand. there's nothing more readily cohesive of a group than hatred for old people. |
| 17:15 |
mircea_popescu |
look into london riots. |
| 17:16 |
asciilifeform |
!s harpagon |
| 17:16 |
assbot |
4 results for 'harpagon' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=harpagon |
| 17:16 |
Adlai |
so they'll hire xenotribal mercenaries |
| 17:16 |
mircea_popescu |
lmao |
| 17:16 |
mircea_popescu |
are you like, new under the sun ? |
| 17:16 |
Adlai |
such as... police forces, armies, etc |
| 17:16 |
mircea_popescu |
suppose kim kardashian goes around drunk in the bad part of detroit, gets raped by a gang of thugs |
| 17:16 |
mircea_popescu |
hires a different gang of thugs to... kill the first gang ? |
| 17:17 |
mircea_popescu |
sure. they also fuck her, then they go have a drink with the first gang, exchange impressions. |
| 17:17 |
asciilifeform |
afaik traditional scheme is for the armies to fight in perpetual deadlock, as if they were the ruminants with horns set at such an angle as to be of no use |
| 17:17 |
Adlai |
basically, that's what happens when tribes/nation[/-]states attack eachother |
| 17:17 |
asciilifeform |
while herr harpagon watches and laughs |
| 17:18 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform that scheme only works when there's few old guys. |
| 17:18 |
mircea_popescu |
well, actually, i suspect old gals is more of a burden, but who knows. |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: there are still 'few old guys.' they see the remaining many as impostors, but are not particularly afraid of them. they have pills for this ('obamacare' etc.) |
| 17:19 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess. |
| 17:19 |
mircea_popescu |
but the problem is the swarming instinct. |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
pelosi is not in any sense afraid of random mrs. smith |
| 17:19 |
mircea_popescu |
you know, peacible grasshoppers suddenly change mode because they got touched on the toes by others too many times. |
| 17:20 |
mircea_popescu |
no, but her ability to continue in relevance is a strict function of how many mrs smith johnny perceives a day. |
| 17:20 |
mircea_popescu |
because if he perceives too many, he's going to go "fuck you, and your laws, and your union" |
| 17:20 |
mircea_popescu |
something like the ferguson stuff. |
| 17:20 |
asciilifeform |
quite a few folks say 'ferguson' when discussion hypothetical phase transition, but i must disagree. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
lizard-hitler loves it when his zoo animals fight ineffectually among themselves |
| 17:21 |
mircea_popescu |
fine, whatever unquenchable permariots. the paris stuff. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
burn down own tenements, etc. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
same deal there |
| 17:21 |
mircea_popescu |
now look. im not saying the small scale thing is effectual. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
usa had a much closer shave before |
| 17:21 |
mircea_popescu |
what i am saying is that the mechanism clearly exists. |
| 17:21 |
asciilifeform |
if you visit wash.,d.c. you can see that in the '70s a good chunk of the place got 'detroit'ed. |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
but not the organs of usg, nor of finance. |
| 17:22 |
mircea_popescu |
this is exactly how capitals work |
| 17:22 |
mircea_popescu |
same happened to bucharest, also in 70s |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
mechanism exists, but i have no idea what it looks like in application to modern usa. |
| 17:22 |
mircea_popescu |
i suspect also moscow |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
and neither does anyone else |
| 17:22 |
mircea_popescu |
well me either, what am i. mafalda. |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
l0l |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
vanga! |
| 17:23 |
asciilifeform |
(ru equivalent) |
| 17:24 |
mircea_popescu |
myeah. |
| 17:24 |
asciilifeform |
(for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.) |
| |
↖ ↖ |
| 17:27 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92800 @ 0.00042935 = 39.8437 BTC [+] |
| 17:27 |
mircea_popescu |
so basically we could say it's "the understanding" of magnetism ? |
| 17:27 |
asciilifeform |
at least partly. |
| 17:28 |
asciilifeform |
'the map is not the territory, but you can't fold up the territory and fit it in your glove compartment.' |
| 17:28 |
cazalla |
wru scoopbot, http://qntra.net/2014/11/nasaa-top-investor-threats/ |
| 17:28 |
assbot |
NASAA: Top Investor Threats | Qntra.net |
| 17:29 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3381 @ 0.00042935 = 1.4516 BTC [+] |
| 17:29 |
asciilifeform |
oh noez, competing chumpatrons, must d3str0y |
| 17:30 |
mircea_popescu |
da fuck is nasaa |
| 17:30 |
mircea_popescu |
all these important things i don't know about! |
| 17:30 |
asciilifeform |
http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/183500/183879_8c00_625x1000.jpg |
| 17:31 |
mircea_popescu |
lol |
| 17:31 |
mircea_popescu |
can this be like, our god ? |
| |
↖ |
| 17:31 |
asciilifeform |
aha. |
| 17:31 |
mircea_popescu |
cool. |
| 17:31 |
mircea_popescu |
lizard hitler is nowwith bitcoin jesus. |
| 17:42 |
TheNewDeal |
lizard hitler is dating bitcoin jesus? |
| 17:43 |
TheNewDeal |
!s bitcoin jesus |
| 17:43 |
assbot |
64 results for 'bitcoin jesus' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitcoin+jesus |
| 17:43 |
cazalla |
ignoring the paedos, i thought this was a good model for a porn site http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/11/09/as-drug-markets-are-seized-pedophiles-launch-a-crowdfunding-site/ |
| 17:43 |
assbot |
While Markets Get Seized: Pedophiles Launch a Crowdfunding Site - Deep Dot Web |
| 17:45 |
cazalla |
what are the odds such a site is a honey pot? |
| 17:45 |
asciilifeform |
!s the man who was thursday |
| 17:45 |
assbot |
4 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday |
| 17:46 |
mircea_popescu |
cazalla about 11 in 5. |
| 17:46 |
asciilifeform |
cazalla: the whole thing exists only as a honeypot, even when it doesn't. |
| 17:47 |
asciilifeform |
what is a honeypot if not each and every criminal undertaking that steps outside of its 'wot' ? |
| 17:47 |
asciilifeform |
and opens self to strangers |
| 17:48 |
asciilifeform |
(for whatever value of 'criminal', in whatever kingdom or time) |
| 17:49 |
asciilifeform |
at any rate, the incentive for the buggers to fabricate 'terrorist atrocities' is so overwhelming, that any such item is guilty until proven innocent of being just such a crock of shit. |
| 17:50 |
asciilifeform |
not that i personally give a damn whether a particular honeypot is artificial or 'wild.' |
| 17:55 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00043338 = 4.9839 BTC [+] |
| 18:03 |
mircea_popescu |
http://trilema.com/2014/i-dont-know-what-the-hell-i-said-i-gave-her-an-ultimatum-and-theres-nothing-i-can-do-its-a-machine-the-little-light-is-blinking-right-now-come-and-listen-to-the-idiot-hey-everybody-the-i/ |
| 18:03 |
assbot |
I don’t know what the hell I said. I gave her an ultimatum and there’s nothing I can do. It’s a machine. The little light is blinking right now: ‘Come and listen to the idiot. Hey everybody, the idiot’s on!’ pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. |
| 18:03 |
asciilifeform |
lol! |
| 18:03 |
mircea_popescu |
hehe |
| 18:03 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu lets nothing go to waste. |
| 18:03 |
mircea_popescu |
i am an ant! |
| 18:07 |
cazalla |
Eliza needs a footnote? |
| 18:07 |
mircea_popescu |
well for prosteriority. |
| 18:07 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90950 @ 0.00042509 = 38.6619 BTC [-] {3} |
| 18:07 |
mircea_popescu |
where prost means stupid, at least in romanian. |
| 18:10 |
asciilifeform |
3rd conference << 2nd? |
| 18:10 |
asciilifeform |
(endnote vi) |
| 18:10 |
mircea_popescu |
$conference |
| 18:10 |
empyex |
mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 5 months and 3 days. Estimated cost today: 3.30951486 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ ) |
| 18:10 |
mircea_popescu |
right you are |
| 18:10 |
asciilifeform |
unless there was a lizards-only 0th conference... |
| 18:11 |
asciilifeform |
herr dooglus must be on an ip-over-dead-goat acoustic-coupler modem... |
| 18:13 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: actually weizenbaum's story is more interesting than the 'prosteriority' lets on. |
| 18:13 |
asciilifeform |
many people figured it out very quickly. |
| 18:13 |
asciilifeform |
but his secretary (young woman) - notably - did not |
| 18:13 |
asciilifeform |
and insisted that the thing was 'alive' and 'understood her' |
| 18:13 |
mircea_popescu |
yup. it works as a trap for particular people |
| 18:13 |
mircea_popescu |
rather than a universal problem |
| 18:13 |
asciilifeform |
she demanded to be 'let alone with it' |
| |
↖ |
| 18:14 |
asciilifeform |
and that was when we learned that there are those among us who... fail turing test. |
| 18:14 |
mircea_popescu |
nah, the two are not the same. |
| 18:14 |
asciilifeform |
well, inverse turing test. |
| 18:14 |
mircea_popescu |
understand something : if female brain were not hackable, if female vulva had no opening, there'd be no species. |
| 18:14 |
jurov |
wow that discussion... rather novel restatement of the question whether a soul exists |
| 18:14 |
mircea_popescu |
she hacks herself. of course she does. so what of it ? |
| 18:15 |
asciilifeform |
nitpick. |
| 18:15 |
Adlai |
!s 4781 |
| 18:15 |
assbot |
1 results for '4781' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781 |
| 18:15 |
mircea_popescu |
jurov quite. |
| 18:15 |
Adlai |
anybody read this? ^^ |
| 18:15 |
asciilifeform |
i not infrequently read esr |
| 18:15 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform im just saying, let's not confuse those who pass the fertility test with those who fail the turing test. |
| 18:15 |
Adlai |
(the book, not the review itself) |
| 18:15 |
asciilifeform |
(esr suffers from some of the same problems as taleb) |
| 18:15 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai i linked it neh ? |
| 18:16 |
Adlai |
http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781 (because assbot apparently isn't self-aware yet) |
| 18:16 |
assbot |
1 results for '4781' - #bitcoin-assets search |
| 18:16 |
Adlai |
er, shit. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#921595 |
| 18:16 |
assbot |
Logged on 14-11-2014 10:10:46; mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too. |
| 18:16 |
asciilifeform |
the book? can't say that i have |
| 18:17 |
Adlai |
or it could specialcase finding only a single result |
| 18:17 |
asciilifeform |
but from the article, it sounds deeply reminiscent of a similar turd, 'cyberselfish' |
| 18:17 |
asciilifeform |
( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1996/07/cyberselfish << briefly described here.) |
| 18:17 |
assbot |
Cyberselfish | Mother Jones |
| 18:27 |
mircea_popescu |
Our biggest concern is the welfare of children who appear on this site. {Site name redacted} has a ZERO tolerance policy for rape or |
| 18:27 |
mircea_popescu |
what the fuck reporting is this. |
| 18:31 |
mircea_popescu |
!up romkor_ |
| 18:31 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai ah, the book. no, never have. |
| 18:32 |
Adlai |
has anybody automated assbot auth? |
| 18:33 |
mircea_popescu |
you mean gribble ? |
| 18:35 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication#Helper_scripts like that ? |
| 18:35 |
assbot |
GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki |
| 18:36 |
Adlai |
amazingly nobody seems to use btc address auth. wtf? |
| 18:36 |
assbot |
AMAZING COMPANY! |
| 18:36 |
Adlai |
srsly bro |
| 18:39 |
mircea_popescu |
what's so amazing about this ? |
| 18:39 |
assbot |
AMAZING COMPANY! |
| 18:39 |
mircea_popescu |
badly thought out, pointless functionality doesn't get much use among the sane. |
| 18:40 |
Adlai |
it's not any better than gpg auth, but i don't see why it's any worse either |
| 18:41 |
Adlai |
although i guess it's less convenient to keep using in the face of existing automation of gpg auth |
| 18:41 |
mircea_popescu |
vulpes explains this if memory serves. |
| 18:42 |
mircea_popescu |
http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321.html#fn.24 there. |
| 18:42 |
assbot |
A summary of changes to Bitcoin since 0.3.21 |
| 18:43 |
Adlai |
thx, not much luck slogging through http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=from%3Aben_vulpes+auth* |
| 18:43 |
assbot |
16 results for 'from:ben_vulpes auth*' - #bitcoin-assets search |
| 18:44 |
asciilifeform |
whether this particular microscope is fit for use as a hammer, depends on two very separate questions - what you think of ecdsa, and what you think of bitcoind |
| 18:45 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform not even getting into these technical discussion : getting people to use their credit cards as identification paperwork is a bad idea. |
| 18:46 |
asciilifeform |
one could in principle maintain a bitcoin 'keypair' for the purpose of abusing it for public key signatures |
| 18:46 |
asciilifeform |
but why? |
| 18:46 |
mircea_popescu |
the only proper way to use bitcoin addresses as identification correctly is to run a never-connected node that has no balance. |
| 18:46 |
mircea_popescu |
this is so braindamaged as to leave one breathless. |
| 18:46 |
asciilifeform |
well yes. |
| 18:46 |
asciilifeform |
but still why. |
| 18:46 |
Adlai |
frankly, my crypto knowledge is lacking to have anything meaningful to say on this issue, beyond "gpg keys can have an order of magnitude more entropy than bitcoin pubkey hashes" |
| 18:46 |
asciilifeform |
get a hammer, leave microscope alone. |
| 18:47 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform are you asking me why or the abuser why ? |
| 18:47 |
asciilifeform |
the abuser. |
| 18:47 |
mircea_popescu |
right. |
| 18:47 |
Adlai |
my reason/excuse has mainly been convenience, i had the btc auth set up years ago before i'd ever used gpg |
| 18:47 |
mircea_popescu |
convenience is the enemy, of course. |
| 18:47 |
mircea_popescu |
anwyay : you'll also notice we quite strictly use 4kb rsa sigs in our gpg |
| 18:48 |
mircea_popescu |
as pointedly opposed to using the ecdsa in bitcoin |
| 18:48 |
mircea_popescu |
now imagine what happens if either is breached somehow. |
| 18:48 |
asciilifeform |
'Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name...' |
| 18:48 |
mircea_popescu |
quite. |
| 18:48 |
Adlai |
a stricter form of identity verification would require breaching *both*, rather than either, or only one |
| 18:49 |
mircea_popescu |
double the hassle of logging. tide's not really that high yet. |
| 18:49 |
Adlai |
;;ident |
| 18:49 |
gribble |
Nick 'Adlai', with hostmask 'Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai', is identified as user 'Adlai', with GPG key id 4D88596A7CDA03F9, key fingerprint FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9, and bitcoin address 13dkw1PtojBW74FN7ERbHqoEvgsTmtARuj |
| 18:49 |
mircea_popescu |
;;gettrust Adlai |
| 18:49 |
gribble |
Currently authenticated from hostmask Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user Adlai: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=Adlai | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Adlai | Rated since: Sat Oct 11 10:15:58 2014 |
| 18:50 |
Adlai |
how charming, i'm only btc authed, but gribble presents it as though i'm gpg authed too |
| 18:50 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai it just says "you're authed" and lists how that could be |
| 18:50 |
Adlai |
you may understand that, but it's not evident purely from response to ;;dient |
| 18:50 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, seems you first logged last month, what do you mean "btc auth set up for years" ? |
| 18:50 |
thestringpuller |
"The cryptography is the strongest point. Your enemies will attack the weakest point, which is you." |
| 18:51 |
mircea_popescu |
well no meaningful content is directly obvious from the form of expression. you gotta know what the words sya. |
| 18:51 |
Adlai |
i've had btc auth set up for around two years |
| 18:51 |
mircea_popescu |
like how ? |
| 18:51 |
Adlai |
i only set up gpg auth a few weeks ago |
| 18:52 |
Adlai |
compare: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=adlai and http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xFCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9 |
| 18:52 |
assbot |
#bitcoin-otc gpg key data |
| 18:53 |
mircea_popescu |
"Lest this all seem merely amusing, meditate on the fate of those who have tampered with words before. The behaviorists ruined words like "behavior", "response", and especially, "learning". They now pl-ay happily in a dream world, internally consistent but lost to science." |
| 18:53 |
mircea_popescu |
oh boy, quite. |
| 18:53 |
Adlai |
where are you going with that quote? |
| 18:53 |
mircea_popescu |
2012-10-06 04:55:28 aha |
| 18:53 |
Adlai |
indeed :) |
| 18:53 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai unrelated to our convo. |
| 18:53 |
Adlai |
oook |
| 18:56 |
Adlai |
perhaps better data, from your very own: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3B241BB6119757556F33339EFC6D3849C1ED1485C66C9D0D0A9506199D7402D0 |
| 18:56 |
assbot |
Welcome | Phuctor |
| 18:56 |
Adlai |
oh, that submission date is today. nvm. |
| 18:56 |
asciilifeform |
lol wasn't meant to be used as an authoritative keyserver. |
| 18:56 |
asciilifeform |
(only updates when someone craps a key in) |
| 18:59 |
Adlai |
hah, i'd forgotten this already: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/29F24169A59A5BE1ACC8FCE0E852F4AE1C2A83C2F6B6902D6FA363BFC983ACBA |
| 18:59 |
assbot |
Welcome | Phuctor |
| 19:00 |
* |
asciilifeform l0lz that folks are using 'phuctor' as a key viewer |
| 19:00 |
Adlai |
don't worry, i'm just phucting with you |
| 19:00 |
asciilifeform |
i guess there's something pleasurable in seeing the moduli |
| 19:00 |
asciilifeform |
i know i like to. |
| 19:02 |
Adlai |
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << /nick accidentally got squatted by ashley while i was in the army. never heard of waksman though. |
| 19:02 |
assbot |
Search results for 'adlai' |
| 19:06 |
Adlai |
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << so, while the current contributors' reasons for not using git[hub] are understandable, i'll leave this up and perhaps update it at my leisure, in case it'll be useful to anybody inhabiting a separate region on the paranoia/lazyness continuum |
| 19:06 |
assbot |
Search results for 'adlai' |
| 19:06 |
Adlai |
pastefail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919932 |
| 19:06 |
assbot |
Logged on 13-11-2014 16:38:23; asciilifeform: Adlai: darcs << as a military man, perhaps you are familiar with systems that could be automated easily, but aren't? e.g., ru nuke sub controls |
| 19:07 |
cazalla |
http://qntra.net/2014/11/cfpbs-proposed-rules-governing-prepaid-cards-include-virtual-currency/ |
| 19:07 |
assbot |
CFPB's Proposed Rules Governing Prepaid Cards Include "Virtual Currency" | Qntra.net |
| 19:07 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: on the contrary, several people (even you?) are using 'git' |
| 19:07 |
asciilifeform |
it even, iirc, comes with a gpg signing gizmo |
| 19:07 |
Adlai |
people other than me have used it? |
| 19:07 |
asciilifeform |
but it is only a tool that some people prefer to use. a 'git' or other similar gizmo will not be the authoritative representation of bitcoind. |
| 19:07 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00042506 = 12.9643 BTC [-] |
| 19:07 |
asciilifeform |
for reasons described earlier. |
| 19:07 |
Adlai |
(specifically for this repo) |
| 19:07 |
asciilifeform |
aha i think ben_vulpes has one of his own |
| 19:08 |
Adlai |
i only set up the repo. doing so required going through all the manual steps (and i did verify gpg signatures with identities fetched from public keyservers) |
| 19:08 |
asciilifeform |
try to understand why a git repo cannot be the canonical representation. |
| 19:08 |
Adlai |
of course i understand, although i still think darcs could actually work for this |
| 19:08 |
asciilifeform |
(the canonical representation can be taken and stuffed into a git repo, or darcs, or cvs, whatever, for your personal pleasure) |
| 19:09 |
Adlai |
(after reading more about its workings) |
| 19:09 |
asciilifeform |
but when it's time to cough your changes back up and have them up for public study, they have to be physically minimal |
| 19:09 |
Adlai |
let's put it this way: the act of fetching signed patches with darcs conducts *exactly* the manual verification workflow which you currently do |
| 19:09 |
asciilifeform |
and per the current state of the art, that means unix diff outputs. |
| 19:09 |
undata |
Adlai: this was my argument. |
| 19:09 |
Adlai |
!s undata darcs |
| 19:09 |
assbot |
0 results for 'undata darcs' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=undata+darcs |
| 19:09 |
undata |
git and others are a damned hash database |
| 19:09 |
Adlai |
... no it wasn't |
| 19:10 |
Adlai |
yes, and they're not looking for a hash database |
| 19:10 |
undata |
Adlai: it turns out there are a few of those |
| 19:10 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: in what way is 'darcs' output more useful than unix patch? |
| 19:10 |
Adlai |
they're looking for verified patch lists |
| 19:10 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: does it, for example, avoid being fooled by line number counts? |
| 19:10 |
Adlai |
asciilifeform: you can add metadata such as patch dependency which is not evident just from the patch's raw contents |
| 19:10 |
undata |
Adlai: as you were then; git solves precisely this problem or would not work. |
| 19:11 |
Adlai |
git commits to a specific state of code. what if it becomes evident that a specific developer was working to introduce bugs, and you only want to excise his patches? that has unbounded painfulness in git, but bounded painfulness in darcs. |
| 19:11 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally, the problem of 'patcher than is never fooled by deletions and line count shifts' is not solvable in the general case. |
| 19:11 |
Adlai |
same bounds hold, or don't, for "his patches, and all those dependent upon them" |
| 19:12 |
asciilifeform |
(if you have a solution, geneticists would love to hear about it. 'sequence alignment' is ruinously expensive, in computational terms.) |
| 19:12 |
Adlai |
which is why darcs lets you add manual metadata for dependency constraints |
| 19:12 |
Adlai |
a "conflict" would require a separate patch, which should be signed by the resolver |
| 19:12 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: we have the metadata. the integer in the patch fileames. |
| 19:12 |
asciilifeform |
*filename |
| 19:13 |
asciilifeform |
try to understand the nature of this 'nuke sub' and the pitfalls of tying one's fortune to 'darcs' or a similarly 'intelligent' instrument. |
| 19:14 |
undata |
asciilifeform: the process of producing a git commit is entirely dumb |
| 19:14 |
Adlai |
darcs isn't that intelligent. the input data it gets from a repository is a partially ordered list of patches, possibly signed. this is slightly more general than an ordered list of patches, but just as secure and interactive/manual |
| 19:14 |
undata |
and your nuke sub is going to get harder and harder to work on as the number of patches grows |
| 19:15 |
asciilifeform |
undata: i want it to get harder. |
| 19:15 |
asciilifeform |
undata, Adlai: are you familiar with 'risk homeostasis' ? |
| 19:15 |
Adlai |
!s risk homeostasis |
| 19:15 |
assbot |
1 results for 'risk homeostasis' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=risk+homeostasis |
| 19:15 |
Adlai |
apparently logs aren't either! |
| 19:16 |
Adlai |
at least, not to a great degree... but i get the idea |
| 19:16 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally, esr had a piece on it. |
| 19:16 |
asciilifeform |
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6271 |
| 19:16 |
assbot |
Program Provability and the Rule of Technical Greed |
| 19:17 |
undata |
asciilifeform: the process you've demanded be manual is not nearly a hard enough hurdle to filter undesirables |
| 19:17 |
asciilifeform |
this business, where things have to keep 'growing' for no apparent reason at all, needs to go. |
| 19:17 |
undata |
it's just a pain in the ass |
| 19:17 |
asciilifeform |
the point here is not to filter undesirable -people- |
| 19:17 |
asciilifeform |
but -things-. |
| 19:17 |
asciilifeform |
as in, cruft. |
| 19:18 |
asciilifeform |
look at extant software and you will see what happens to engineering when moving parts stop having weight and cost. |
| 19:18 |
asciilifeform |
it gets cancer. |
| 19:18 |
asciilifeform |
and since it never quite succumbs to the cancer, the tumours become planetary-sized. |
| 19:19 |
asciilifeform |
dwarfing the actual healthy tissue. |
| 19:19 |
asciilifeform |
how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ? |
| 19:19 |
undata |
I'll argue that git is doing precisely what you're doing by hand. |
| 19:19 |
Adlai |
i'm going to stop talking before i sound like a broken record, but this topic is likely to come up again once i've got something more substantial to say in defense of some tool for easing (ie, partially automating, up to the point of confirming signature verification) this process... no guarantee on how soon that could be, or which tool. |
| 19:19 |
Adlai |
darcs seems the likeliest candidate right now, though |
| 19:19 |
undata |
you're not removing complexity; you're just making the same process slower |
| 19:19 |
asciilifeform |
undata: well, to the extent that any version control system can be cudgelled into coughing up output compatible with 'patch' - then yes. |
| 19:19 |
asciilifeform |
but it is that output, and only that, which i am willing to sign. |
| 19:20 |
undata |
asciilifeform: there is not one single canonical timeline in any project |
| 19:20 |
asciilifeform |
others can disagree, and sign the empire state building. |
| 19:20 |
asciilifeform |
let's put it another way. i will not sign anything that i cannot read. |
| 19:20 |
asciilifeform |
it's bad enough that we are dealing with a turd that is quite impossible to fully understand in the original. |
| 19:21 |
asciilifeform |
but i will only sign deltas which consist of information which i can fully view. |
| 19:21 |
undata |
to me you're saying damn the microscope or we'll never understand this cell |
| 19:21 |
asciilifeform |
undata: you are perfectly welcome to use a vcs of whatever flavour appeals to you |
| 19:21 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes, the one fellow who is really still working on this gizmo, is |
| 19:22 |
undata |
I'd like to slash out the db bits and try something else, but I'm not going to bother with trying to manually merge other people's patches as they come along in process |
| 19:22 |
undata |
that is precisely the scenario git helps |
| 19:22 |
mod6 |
im not using one |
| 19:22 |
* |
asciilifeform isn't either |
| 19:23 |
asciilifeform |
undata: if you want to understand the whole point of the fork, try to understand what you lose when you choose a vcs as a canonical representation. |
| 19:23 |
asciilifeform |
or, alternatively, create own fork, with own point... |
| 19:24 |
asciilifeform |
but don't be surprised if it is treated in the same way as the phoundation's original - at the very best, a place to steal bug fixes from. |
| 19:27 |
asciilifeform |
undata: do you know how soviet nukes and spacecraft were assembled? |
| |
↖ |
| 19:27 |
Adlai |
wouldn't a better forking point be before any significant "crowd" involvement? cf https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors?from=2010-07-11&to=2011-04-27&type=c |
| 19:27 |
assbot |
Contributors to bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub |
| 19:27 |
asciilifeform |
there was a three-man system |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 19:28 |
asciilifeform |
one would read instructions. another, turn a wrench, whatever. third would check that 2 corresponds to 1. then, all three sign under that step in recipe. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 19:28 |
asciilifeform |
all three - answer with their lives. |
| 19:28 |
asciilifeform |
this is how safety-critical systems work. |
| |
↖ |
| 19:28 |
asciilifeform |
and whiners who complain that this is arduous, unreasonable, etc. - are shown where the door is. |
| 19:28 |
* |
Adlai is not sufficiently familiar with each line of code itself to tell which of those contributions, or ones in the ensuing spikes, are trivially trustable, and which aren't |
| 19:29 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49173 @ 0.00042192 = 20.7471 BTC [-] {2} |
| 19:29 |
undata |
asciilifeform: it is absurd to think that software cannot help enforce that rigor |
| 19:29 |
undata |
or why did we make it at all? |
| 19:29 |
undata |
any software |
| 19:29 |
asciilifeform |
software is helping to the extent it is reasonable. for instance, i am trusting my text editor to display the actual source and not some diddled version. |
| 19:29 |
undata |
asciilifeform: it's more likely that your text editor diddled than git did |
| 19:30 |
undata |
your text editor isn't checking against known hashes |
| 19:30 |
asciilifeform |
idea is not 'which was diddled' but which one encourages reliance on greater and greater machine 'intelligence' |
| 19:30 |
Adlai |
undata: this is more along the lines of "confirm by human approval that an unforseen software/bureaucracy/insanity 'bug' isn't afoot" |
| 19:30 |
asciilifeform |
it is very easy to test if my text editor is lying. |
| 19:30 |
asciilifeform |
(less easy to test if it is -capable- of lying, but that's another matter) |
| 19:31 |
asciilifeform |
but the argument here is not about sabotaged ken-thompson-style tools. but about tools that foster intellectual atrophy. |
| |
↖ |
| 19:31 |
asciilifeform |
and a dependence on the machine to resolve questions which ought to be resolved by the mind, and thus kept 'light weight' enough to be easily resolved by the mind. |
| 19:32 |
undata |
being able to apply 700 patches by hand, having verified signatures on each one, is no measure of intelligence |
| 19:32 |
asciilifeform |
no. |
| 19:33 |
undata |
it confirms you're a ploddingly simple mechanical device |
| 19:33 |
asciilifeform |
it's a chore, yes |
| 19:33 |
asciilifeform |
can't really argue that it's a great joy. |
| 19:33 |
asciilifeform |
and whatever aspects of it can be automated - should be |
| 19:33 |
Adlai |
according to github, v0.5.3 has 36 committers with github accounts (for example, doesn't include satoshi). compare this with starting on Apr 1, 2011: 8 |
| 19:34 |
asciilifeform |
but i will not be signing any patch that i can't apply with my mind, in my mental model of the code. |
| |
↖ |
| 19:34 |
undata |
Adlai: there is a mountain of bugfixing to re-apply |
| 19:34 |
asciilifeform |
and requires some complicated pattern-matcher to apply |
| 19:34 |
undata |
asciilifeform: at some point wont you have to delegate that? |
| 19:34 |
undata |
torvalds addresses this regarding the kernel and git |
| 19:34 |
undata |
he uses WoT to manage what makes it into the kernel |
| 19:34 |
asciilifeform |
lol re: linux kernel as an example to follow |
| 19:35 |
Adlai |
of course, but the "manual trust verification" approach taken further would suggest only applying critical bugfixes, as patches, signed by the developer who wrote them (preferably with a signature published at the time of the fix, alternatively obtaining a signature in the present day... or manually verifying the patch's trustworthyness, and signing yourself) |
| 19:36 |
undata |
Adlai: so I sign the hash of the commit with my gpg key |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: there are two separate questions here, and we are only dealing with one |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
that being - attribution. |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
the most important thing is that each and every change, however slight, is attributable. |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
now, and 100 years from now. |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
'trustworthiness' can only be born from this. |
| 19:36 |
asciilifeform |
right now it is a null word. |
| 19:36 |
Adlai |
and how does what I just said miss that? |
| 19:37 |
undata |
asciilifeform: so are you going to trace that line of code by hand through 1500 patches? |
| 19:37 |
asciilifeform |
well, you referred to 'trustworthiness' which is a thing we have not yet invented. |
| 19:37 |
undata |
and is that more reliable than git blame? |
| 19:37 |
undata |
now I'm supposed to trust your infallible eye |
| 19:37 |
asciilifeform |
undata: picture the 0.5.3 turd as a piece of martian technology. |
| 19:37 |
asciilifeform |
let's pretend that it just happened to fall upon the earth. |
| |
↖ |
| 19:37 |
Adlai |
s/trust/origin/, s/manually verifying/claiming responsibility for/ |
| 19:37 |
undata |
ha, yes. |
| 19:37 |
asciilifeform |
we have no idea, let's say, what parts are useful, and which ones are boobytraps designed to kill unwary earthling dissector. |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
but we do know that among us are hostile martians, who would like us to come to harm. |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
we want to know, even if it is fifty years too late, who they were. |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
and the only way to learn it, is by their works. |
| 19:38 |
undata |
I might not try and use the thing at all. |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
that's an option. |
| 19:38 |
undata |
I'd observe it then try a clean re-implementation |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
i hear it's popular. |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
aha but how to observe? |
| 19:38 |
asciilifeform |
and then how to convince others you are not a martian ? |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
two separate problems. |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
conformal corp.'s reimplementation exists, for instance. |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
and 2 or 3 others. |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
why aren't we using them? |
| 19:39 |
Adlai |
well, you can't convince another person you're not a martian. hell, i don't think i could convince myself that i'm not unwittingly carrying out martian bidding. |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
(well - at least, i'm not) |
| 19:39 |
ben_vulpes |
inertia |
| 19:39 |
ben_vulpes |
fear |
| 19:39 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: no. |
| 19:40 |
asciilifeform |
i won't use, because i was not privvy to the process whereby it was born. |
| 19:40 |
asciilifeform |
nor have any reason to place trust in the creators |
| 19:40 |
Adlai |
but you can ease recovery from covert evil martian sabotage |
| 19:40 |
asciilifeform |
what recovery can there be, when your $maxint coins walk away? |
| 19:40 |
asciilifeform |
gotta understand why bitcoind < 0.6 is special. |
| 19:40 |
ben_vulpes |
why so much more confident in the satoshi turd than the conformal blackbox? |
| 19:41 |
asciilifeform |
because it is the only one which existed upon the earth before bitcoin was valuable! |
| |
↖ |
| 19:41 |
asciilifeform |
i thought this was elementarily obvious. |
| 19:41 |
undata |
but this can be taken to the absurd |
| 19:41 |
ben_vulpes |
best argument i've heard. |
| 19:41 |
undata |
satoshi = nsa |
| 19:41 |
undata |
it has always been broken |
| 19:41 |
asciilifeform |
undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault. |
| 19:41 |
Adlai |
surely these purely hypothetical martians already had their eyes on it before "bitcoin was valuable" |
| 19:42 |
undata |
asciilifeform: I don't believe or disbelieve it |
| 19:42 |
undata |
one can always suppose a reason why tonight's the night they come to get him |
| 19:42 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: there are at least six different hypotheses for why dr. evil has not yet pulled the trigger. |
| 19:42 |
asciilifeform |
one of them is that there was no dr. evil |
| 19:42 |
asciilifeform |
but there are at least five others. |
| 19:42 |
asciilifeform |
i think each of the regulars here has his favourite. |
| 19:42 |
Adlai |
at least one tla took an active interest back in 2011... |
| 19:43 |
Adlai |
and please elaborate on the hypotheses |
| 19:43 |
Adlai |
(or just point out log links/searches) |
| 19:43 |
TheNewDeal |
second that statement |
| |
↖ |
| 19:43 |
TheNewDeal |
the only one I can think of is, wait until it gets 10, or 100 times bigger |
| 19:43 |
asciilifeform |
!s nsa bitcoin |
| 19:43 |
assbot |
27 results for 'nsa bitcoin' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=nsa+bitcoin |
| 19:44 |
undata |
why would they create it? impending fiat disaster? |
| 19:44 |
TheNewDeal |
not interested about the nsa connection now, but the "why hasn't he pulled the plug?" question |
| 19:44 |
undata |
TheNewDeal: supposing "he" is usgov; why wouldn't they just sit back and let it take over, and hold their 1/21 or more of it? |
| 19:44 |
undata |
and continue to be the thing they've been |
| 19:45 |
Adlai |
TheNewDeal: e no antecedent, in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014922735 |
| 19:45 |
assbot |
#bitcoin-assets log |
| 19:45 |
TheNewDeal |
that's obvious to me why it doesnt matter if he is nsa |
| 19:45 |
undata |
I don't see a reason to pull any plugs |
| 19:45 |
asciilifeform |
undata: are you familiar with a figure called anatoly golitsyn? |
| |
↖ |
| 19:45 |
joecool |
!isitdup wiki.bitcoin-assets.com |
| 19:45 |
undata |
asciilifeform: I am not |
| 19:45 |
asciilifeform |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-12-2013#421984 |
| 19:45 |
assbot |
Logged on 15-12-2013 00:57:19; asciilifeform: anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn? |
| 19:45 |
Adlai |
fixfail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922735 |
| 19:45 |
assbot |
Logged on 15-11-2014 00:43:25; TheNewDeal: second that statement |
| 19:45 |
joecool |
kakobrekla: wiki is down? |
| 19:46 |
undata |
here's a doubling down of it: NSA intends to take over the hashing power of the network and implement coin validation |
| 19:46 |
undata |
ushering in a dark age |
| 19:46 |
undata |
haha |
| 19:46 |
joecool |
yep, everything on bitcoin-assets.com down for me |
| 19:47 |
undata |
asciilifeform: yes that |
| 19:47 |
Adlai |
;;isup search.bitcoin-assets.com |
| 19:47 |
gribble |
search.bitcoin-assets.com is up |
| 19:47 |
undata |
bitcoin could easily be one of the most dystopian inventions ever |
| 19:47 |
undata |
depending on who has the hashing power and what they intend |
| 19:48 |
asciilifeform |
http://pastebin.com/LEKE04PY << for those who can't reach the log |
| 19:48 |
assbot |
00:57:19asciilifeform:anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn? - Pastebin.com |
| 19:49 |
undata |
asciilifeform: this brings me back to my comments about the pile of weapons |
| 19:49 |
* |
Adlai likes how the pastebin gets dated by the newsfart mention |
| 19:49 |
joecool |
!isup log.bitcoin-assets.com |
| 19:50 |
Adlai |
joecool: try ;; |
| 19:50 |
joecool |
Adlai: search works here |
| 19:50 |
joecool |
;;isup log.bitcoin-assets.com |
| 19:50 |
gribble |
log.bitcoin-assets.com is up |
| 19:50 |
undata |
the pentagon is the actual US govt |
| 19:50 |
asciilifeform |
!s meta-nsa |
| 19:50 |
assbot |
30 results for 'meta-nsa' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=meta-nsa |
| 19:50 |
undata |
this civilian bureaucracy is a skirt |
| 19:50 |
asciilifeform |
^ required reading for 'shadow government' aficionados |
| 19:50 |
joecool |
Adlai: used to ! on the otc channel, bad habit |
| 19:51 |
asciilifeform |
!s lizard-hitler |
| 19:51 |
assbot |
5 results for 'lizard-hitler' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=lizard-hitler |
| 19:52 |
Adlai |
the lizard-hitler popular with my conspiracy friends has dabbled in history from a much earlier age |
| 19:53 |
asciilifeform |
e.g., http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2013#416393 |
| 19:53 |
assbot |
Logged on 11-12-2013 00:40:16; asciilifeform: i can't help but imagine some fellow at Meta-NSA, with a pill against ECDSA hidden under a flower pot in his office, laughing his arse off at these morons. |
| 19:53 |
Adlai |
he/they are responsible for crossing mammal and reptilian "genes" (phenotypes? genotypes? details, damnit! details!) |
| 19:53 |
Adlai |
Homo sapiens [sapiens] being essentially some form of automaton / robot slave / controlled experiment, conducted by these lizard-nazis |
| 19:54 |
asciilifeform |
for those who slept, |
| 19:54 |
asciilifeform |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393 |
| 19:54 |
assbot |
Logged on 14-11-2014 22:24:42; asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.) |
| |
↖ |
| 19:54 |
Adlai |
"slept"? more like "don't speak http" |
| 19:54 |
Adlai |
which is quite an illiteracy, these days |
| 19:55 |
assbot |
Last 12 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3A8FTX8.txt ) |
| 19:55 |
Adlai |
!b 12 |
| 19:56 |
Adlai |
ignorance is bliss, eh assbot? |
| 19:56 |
Adlai |
assbot is immune to suicidal depression, because it doesn't even know it exists |
| |
↖ |
| 20:00 |
nubbins` |
;;seen asciilifeform |
| 20:00 |
gribble |
asciilifeform was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 minutes and 25 seconds ago: <asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393 |
| 20:00 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66300 @ 0.0004115 = 27.2825 BTC [-] {2} |
| 20:00 |
asciilifeform |
nubbins`: i'm right here. |
| 20:00 |
Adlai |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2014#610903 << does security-over-obscurity preclude discussing further your uses of obsd? |
| 20:00 |
assbot |
Logged on 09-04-2014 09:10:25; mircea_popescu: tbh im kinda surprised teh tradepress isn't howling all about "in january, 'Bitcoin Baron Keeps a Secretive Open Source OS Alive' ; in april, nsa's crown jool is thrown in the dirt of the public space." |
| 20:00 |
nubbins` |
hi |
| 20:00 |
asciilifeform |
at least for a few min. |
| 20:00 |
nubbins` |
- if the project is deemed infeasible, 0.5 BTC (less tx fees) will be returned to a Bitcoin address specified by asciilifeform, no later than 2014-11-15. |
| 20:01 |
asciilifeform |
ah |
| 20:01 |
nubbins` |
loose ends and the tying up thereof! |
| 20:01 |
asciilifeform |
send it where it came from. |
| 20:01 |
nubbins` |
k |
| 20:01 |
* |
Adlai is curious what is considered a secure stack for financial sites, eg mpex |
| 20:01 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36427 @ 0.00041773 = 15.2167 BTC [+] |
| 20:01 |
nubbins` |
i still want to print this if/when the time comes that the chicken is whittled down to edible meat and bone |
| 20:01 |
asciilifeform |
nubbins`: and i shall buy it. |
| 20:02 |
Adlai |
nubbins`: why aren't you printing it? |
| 20:02 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: see jurov's chronicle: http://explo.yt/post/2014/10/29/some-dangerous-idea |
| 20:02 |
assbot |
A dangerous idea - serialized delusions |
| 20:02 |
asciilifeform |
(re: why not printed) |
| 20:02 |
nubbins` |
tl;dr you don't bronze turds |
| 20:03 |
asciilifeform |
except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.' |
| 20:03 |
asciilifeform |
where - they did. |
| 20:04 |
nubbins` |
heh |
| 20:05 |
nubbins` |
https://blockchain.info/tx/233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71 |
| 20:05 |
assbot |
Bitcoin Transaction 233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71 |
| 20:05 |
asciilifeform |
Adlai: what is considered a secure stack for financial << this is like asking, 'what is considered a good wife' |
| 20:05 |
Adlai |
and indeed, isn't it acceptable, in some circles at least, to look at family photos? |
| 20:07 |
asciilifeform |
'A Roman divorced from his wife, being highly blamed by his friends, who demanded, "Was she not chaste? Was she not fair? Was she not fruitful?" holding out his shoe, asked them whether it was not new and well made. "Yet," added he, "none of you can tell where it pinches me."' |
| 20:07 |
asciilifeform |
(plutarch, iirc) |
| 20:07 |
joecool |
hm reading about the assets project to roll back to 0.5.3, i see "rip out bdb" ? drop wallet support so it only functions as node? |
| 20:08 |
asciilifeform |
joecool: rolling back was just step 1 in recipe. |
| 20:08 |
Adlai |
this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes? |
| 20:09 |
nubbins` |
notary http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5 |
| 20:09 |
nubbins` |
what is it again |
| 20:09 |
nubbins` |
!s notary |
| 20:09 |
assbot |
26 results for 'notary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=notary |
| 20:09 |
nubbins` |
.deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5 |
| 20:09 |
notary |
nubbins`: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle. |
| 20:10 |
ben_vulpes |
joecool: what's a wallet? |
| 20:10 |
joecool |
ben_vulpes: wallet.db support |
| 20:11 |
ben_vulpes |
is management of a single address not enough for you? |
| 20:11 |
nubbins` |
:D |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
joecool: i don't believe that the current participants in turdatron really agree on what the ultimate end product should be (e.g., something like what conformal has, or a hardware implementation - what i want, etc.) but we do agree that a reference implementation is necessary before it even makes sense to ask the question. |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
at the moment - we don't have a reference. |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
nubbins`: thank you |
| 20:12 |
nubbins` |
np, may our day in the sun come |
| 20:13 |
nubbins` |
!up dooglus |
| 20:13 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7723 @ 0.00042926 = 3.3152 BTC [+] |
| 20:14 |
nubbins` |
incidentally, you'll get a chance to check out pictures of my large-format binding work later this month |
| 20:17 |
joecool |
asciilifeform: i see, what exactly has been happening? were people expecting gavin to crap out a reference eventually or just keep adding BIP's and pile on the crap? |
| 20:20 |
nubbins` |
i think "people" were expecting what people always have/will |
| 20:20 |
nubbins` |
everything, now, goddammit |
| 20:20 |
joecool |
nubbins`: someone else will get around to it |
| 20:20 |
nubbins` |
saying shit like "we" |
| 20:21 |
nubbins` |
"we need" |
| 20:21 |
ben_vulpes |
"the people" want everything they're told they want and to pay for nothing. |
| 20:21 |
ben_vulpes |
kinda why the open source ownership of satoshi's codebase failed so dramatically. |
| 20:22 |
nubbins` |
dat lack of bare-bones implementation, etc |
| 20:24 |
ben_vulpes |
the preference of "the community" for something that sorta-works across a broad spectrum of use cases |
| 20:24 |
ben_vulpes |
(albeit poorly at any of them individually) |
| 20:24 |
joecool |
so there's a todo, is there a repo you guys are using or a a mailing list for patches? |
| 20:24 |
ben_vulpes |
ml for patches |
| 20:24 |
ben_vulpes |
lol don't really know if it even works yet |
| 20:25 |
undata |
joecool: repo?! scoff! |
| 20:25 |
thestringpuller |
"There are no infinite loops in Ethereum because cycles cost currency and there is a finite amount of currency." |
| 20:25 |
joecool |
undata: cvs works for me |
| 20:25 |
ben_vulpes |
but if you're going to hack on it, start with the 0.5.3 dist at f9beb4d9.org, apply asciilifeform's "chicken" patch, and then yours on top of that. |
| 20:25 |
joecool |
ben_vulpes: thanks |
| 20:26 |
thestringpuller |
has anyone been able to load blockchain yet without exploding? |
| 20:26 |
ben_vulpes |
thestringpuller: i'm still inching my blockchain to wedging |
| 20:26 |
ben_vulpes |
i'm working to crap out a "blockchain" that i can use to test this wedge |
| 20:26 |
ben_vulpes |
er |
| 20:26 |
ben_vulpes |
that i can use to track down potentially unwedging commits i should say. |
| 20:32 |
joecool |
ben_vulpes: will it reindex a pulled in blockchain or is it a necessity to pull in from start to finish? |
| 20:39 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26400 @ 0.0004105 = 10.8372 BTC [-] |
| 20:39 |
* |
Adlai envisions a method of automatically sussing out the wedge point, but it requires the use of automation tools... |
| 20:40 |
Adlai |
specifically, http://man.cx/git-bisect |
| 20:40 |
assbot |
Manpage for git-bisect - man.cx manual pages |
| 20:41 |
thestringpuller |
joecool: after certain block it goes bananas |
| 20:42 |
joecool |
always same block? |
| 20:42 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12295 @ 0.0004105 = 5.0471 BTC [-] |
| 20:42 |
thestringpuller |
dunno haven't tried again |
| 20:55 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22828 @ 0.00041956 = 9.5777 BTC [+] |
| 20:57 |
ben_vulpes |
Adlai: git bisect is actually the plan |
| 20:57 |
ben_vulpes |
my plan, more accurately. |
| 20:58 |
ben_vulpes |
joecool: "reindexing" is something that gavin's fork does to find all of the transactions relevant to addresses in your wallet in a given blockchain. |
| 20:59 |
ben_vulpes |
required for "importprivkey" etc |
| 20:59 |
ben_vulpes |
reverifying the blockchain is something else entirely. |
| 20:59 |
joecool |
so 0.5.3 and earlier did not do such things? |
| 21:00 |
Adlai |
the only plan right now is http://music.tatranmusic.com/ |
| 21:00 |
assbot |
TATRAN |
| 21:01 |
ben_vulpes |
0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage like "reindex" |
| 21:02 |
ben_vulpes |
0.5.3 is just a not unreasonable starting point for the project. |
| 21:03 |
ben_vulpes |
the story behind its selection is pretty amusing and may need to be revisited. |
| 21:04 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform: how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ? << i guess about half. |
| 21:04 |
mircea_popescu |
and that is probably rare. |
| 21:05 |
ben_vulpes |
Adlai: additionally, i'm scripting the approach to the wedge point so that i can reproduce both the wedge and it not happening trivially with git bisect and other scripts |
| 21:06 |
mircea_popescu |
basically there' |
| 21:06 |
mircea_popescu |
s a conflict between enthusiasm and experience here. |
| 21:06 |
mircea_popescu |
enthusiasm is a sin. |
| 21:06 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54873 @ 0.00042886 = 23.5328 BTC [+] {3} |
| 21:06 |
Adlai |
ben_vulpes: please share your bisection script |
| 21:07 |
ben_vulpes |
Adlai: just in skeleton form atm |
| 21:07 |
ben_vulpes |
i don't have a blockchain that wedges yet, nor have i reproduced the wedging point |
| 21:07 |
* |
Adlai is in no hurry |
| 21:07 |
ben_vulpes |
stuff i've written so far: http://pastebin.com/Zf4T9xF7 |
| 21:07 |
assbot |
[Bash] #!/bin/bash TEST_DATA_DIR=aplace WEDGE_BLOCK=999999 clean_data_dir() { - Pastebin.com |
| 21:08 |
ben_vulpes |
this abomination is what's edging my copy of 0.5.3 up to the wedge point: http://pastebin.com/itWYUk9f |
| 21:08 |
assbot |
[Bash] #! /bin/bash # assumes that bitcoind is running blockmax=$1 should_continue - Pastebin.com |
| 21:10 |
ben_vulpes |
hardly groundbreaking. just tiptoeing around, because...enthusiasm kills the sapper. |
| 21:10 |
mircea_popescu |
ben_vulpes why the sleep ? |
| 21:10 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67550 @ 0.0004334 = 29.2762 BTC [+] {2} |
| 21:10 |
ben_vulpes |
no desire to tax the poor leaky boat |
| 21:11 |
mircea_popescu |
should be interestinf to see if sleep actually resolves [part of] memory leakage |
| 21:11 |
mircea_popescu |
-> race condition. |
| 21:12 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform: undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault. <<< that it has a good response is mostly your fault. that it appears... it'd have appeared anyway. |
| 21:13 |
mircea_popescu |
now if i only had a link to where it was put to rest, to pass along to undata |
| 21:13 |
ben_vulpes |
currach is the word i was looking for |
| 21:14 |
mircea_popescu |
carrack ? |
| 21:14 |
ben_vulpes |
leather over wood prehistoric thinger? |
| 21:15 |
ben_vulpes |
coracle perhaps even |
| 21:15 |
mircea_popescu |
oh, no. this is the boat that mapped the world. |
| 21:15 |
ben_vulpes |
well its a crappy coracle dammit |
| 21:15 |
ben_vulpes |
bitcoin is the coin that changed the world but that doesn't mean the first try doesn't sink in heavy storms |
| 21:16 |
mircea_popescu |
http://www.stephenbiesty.co.uk/galleries_Atmospheric_Cutaways_Magellan'sCarrack.html |
| 21:16 |
assbot |
Stephen Biesty - Illustrator - Atmospheric Cutaways - Megallan's Carrack |
| 21:17 |
asciilifeform |
!s koraktor |
| 21:17 |
assbot |
11 results for 'koraktor' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=koraktor |
| 21:18 |
asciilifeform |
or maybe not. |
| 21:18 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2617 @ 0.0004249 = 1.112 BTC [-] |
| 21:19 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: regarding the NSA conspiracy, it's amusing, but doesn't seem likely that they'd undermine fiat intentionaly |
| 21:19 |
undata |
*lly |
| 21:20 |
asciilifeform |
does cia cocaine boat intend to undermine 'war on drugs' ? |
| 21:20 |
asciilifeform |
why does 'intend' even matter? |
| 21:21 |
undata |
asciilifeform: because unintentionally they're undermining their own existence by existing in the first place |
| 21:22 |
nubbins` |
anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"? |
| 21:22 |
asciilifeform |
me. |
| 21:22 |
nubbins` |
:D |
| 21:22 |
nubbins` |
i stared at it for like 10 minutes |
| 21:24 |
asciilifeform |
in other news, http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing |
| 21:24 |
assbot |
Lenta.ru: Силовые структуры: «Первый канал» показал спутниковые снимки атаки истребителем гражданского самолета |
| 21:25 |
asciilifeform |
i don't feel like translating. |
| 21:25 |
asciilifeform |
either 'google' or mircea_popescu |
| 21:25 |
asciilifeform |
tldr - ru satellite footage of death of mh-17 |
| 21:26 |
* |
asciilifeform wasn't there, didn't watch, cannot swear to it |
| 21:26 |
nubbins` |
:0 |
| 21:27 |
asciilifeform |
let out in response to australian 'je'accuse' |
| 21:28 |
Adlai |
all this horseradish for just a file conversion!? http://www.zamzar.com/tos.php |
| 21:28 |
assbot |
Zamzar - Free online file conversion |
| 21:29 |
asciilifeform |
lol, american/uk sat. |
| 21:29 |
undata |
asciilifeform: the strange thing to me: it doesn't matter at all what actually happened |
| 21:29 |
Adlai |
it's considerably shorter than the usual legalese, but just for starters, they could have separate terms for all the paid cruft, and leave the free service simple |
| 21:29 |
undata |
these events serve as fine propaganda tools no matter what for both sides |
| 21:30 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34450 @ 0.00042727 = 14.7195 BTC [+] {2} |
| 21:30 |
asciilifeform |
undata: except when usg can be caught with pants down. |
| 21:30 |
asciilifeform |
and anally tickled until bursts. |
| 21:30 |
undata |
asciilifeform: the usgov can tag its own pentagon with a missile in broad daylight |
| 21:31 |
asciilifeform |
and let's say you caught it on film. |
| 21:31 |
asciilifeform |
yes, 'can have problems,' film will be denied, etc. |
| 21:31 |
asciilifeform |
but still improvement. |
| 21:32 |
undata |
seems like the US and Russia are gradually building support for a very large war |
| 21:33 |
mats_cd03 |
ha. |
| 21:33 |
undata |
meanwhile, related: they're starting to bang the Iraq war drum here, again |
| 21:34 |
undata |
only this time Syria must go as well |
| 21:35 |
thestringpuller |
https://github.com/cwinklevoss |
| 21:35 |
asciilifeform |
i can make one for hitler, what of it |
| 21:36 |
thestringpuller |
silly winklevii don't code |
| 21:37 |
undata |
if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, and whatever I wanted in eastern ukraine, at least |
| 21:38 |
undata |
and I'd most certainly try to help stir up whatever particular brand of shit the americans can't resist in the middle east |
| 21:38 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5598 @ 0.00043346 = 2.4265 BTC [+] |
| 21:40 |
mircea_popescu |
<nubbins`> anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"? << it's in the logs. |
| 21:41 |
mircea_popescu |
<undata> if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, <<< obviously, you're not russia. |
| 21:42 |
mircea_popescu |
it needs more oil under a sheet of ice like kim kardashian needs more pubic hair. |
| 21:43 |
PeterL |
doesn't russia pretty much have as much oil as they want right now anyway? why do they need an excuse to grab more? |
| 21:44 |
mircea_popescu |
yup. |
| 21:44 |
Adlai |
any theories on reasons for the temporal hint of correlation between btcfiat and s.mpoe? |
| 21:45 |
mircea_popescu |
i was waiting for mike_c's words of wisdom |
| 21:45 |
ben_vulpes |
!t l s.mpoe |
| 21:45 |
assbot |
It says some pelt-wearin' trapper, some stinkin' bean-suckin' possum skinner, he's gonna collect that reward money. |
| 21:45 |
ben_vulpes |
!l s.mpoe |
| 21:45 |
assbot |
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow. |
| 21:45 |
ben_vulpes |
!l mpex s.mpoe |
| 21:45 |
assbot |
Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00043346 BTC [+] |
| 21:45 |
mircea_popescu |
!t m s.mpoe |
| 21:45 |
assbot |
[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.0004105 / 0.0004339 / 0.00046194 (2681850 shares, 1,163.66 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00053599 / 0.00065245 (7576604 shares, 4,061.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00067967 / 0.00081111 (23975563 shares, 16,295.66 BTC) |
| 21:45 |
undata |
mircea_popescu: still, controlling supply means having an influence on price |
| 21:45 |
mike_c |
i don't have any words of wisdom on mpoe. |
| 21:45 |
mircea_popescu |
undata you don't understand. siberia is a huge space, full of minerals they can't access because ice. |
| 21:45 |
mike_c |
feels cheap though. |
| 21:46 |
ben_vulpes |
wasn't the last major mpoe action a big rally during the big btc rally? |
| 21:46 |
ben_vulpes |
;;ticker |
| 21:46 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 391.71, Best ask: 391.72, Bid-ask spread: 0.01000, Last trade: 391.65, 24 hour volume: 20570.65837348, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.974151246 |
| 21:46 |
PeterL |
and no way to transport out, no oil pipes |
| 21:46 |
ben_vulpes |
there is this sneaky theory that btc price is driven by mpoe holders |
| 21:46 |
Adlai |
well look who's been asleep now :P |
| 21:46 |
mircea_popescu |
ben_vulpes pretty much yea |
| 21:46 |
Adlai |
so, why would they need to dump mpoe to boost btc? |
| 21:47 |
Adlai |
doesn't mpoe operate "within" bitcoin? |
| 21:47 |
ben_vulpes |
mircea_popescu will bang on about that at will |
| 21:47 |
* |
ben_vulpes shrugs |
| 21:47 |
ben_vulpes |
many legs to the trade |
| 21:48 |
ben_vulpes |
could just be momentum and a long dry spell on mpex |
| 21:48 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform: except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.' <<< anything good in there ? |
| 21:48 |
ben_vulpes |
i suspect mpoe acts as a stand in for an mpex market fund |
| 21:48 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: plenty |
| 21:48 |
Adlai |
note that i'm asking less "why did mpoe drop" and more "what evidence supports a correlation as the explanation for the temporal coincidence?" |
| 21:48 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: but we've no archive any more. |
| 21:49 |
mircea_popescu |
sux. |
| 21:49 |
Adlai |
for all i care, it could have risen. i hold none (yet) |
| 21:49 |
ben_vulpes |
Adlai: if anything, i'd have expected a surge as those who held mpoe bought more to balance their crypto holdings while accumulating more btc |
| 21:49 |
ben_vulpes |
mpoe is a goddamn mystery to me, Adlai. |
| 21:49 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does. |
| |
↖ |
| 21:50 |
ben_vulpes |
for the first time ever my mpoe holdings are underwater |
| 21:51 |
ben_vulpes |
guess this means is hould sell, eh |
| 21:51 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai: this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes? <<< you know your crowd-* obsession is at some level based on the fundamentally evil notion that people are interchangeable. |
| 21:51 |
mircea_popescu |
people are not interchangeable. |
| 21:51 |
asciilifeform |
^ |
| 21:51 |
asciilifeform |
whole point of the anecdote. |
| 21:52 |
mircea_popescu |
there isn't some sort of "us" that could just as well be a standin for any of us. |
| 21:52 |
Adlai |
people aren't interchangeable, but shoes (and artifacts of their ilk) are increasingly produced and repaired in an interchangeable manner |
| 21:52 |
mircea_popescu |
no mythical man month, because no mythical man, not because no mythical month. |
| 21:52 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai this, because industry is increasingly a piece of shit. |
| 21:52 |
ben_vulpes |
yet somehow programmers are supposed to be a dime a doze? |
| 21:52 |
ben_vulpes |
dozen? |
| 21:53 |
Adlai |
dime a doze sounds closer to reality |
| 21:53 |
mircea_popescu |
ben_vulpes the sort of "programmers" that "add features" should actually be charged to go to work. |
| 21:53 |
mircea_popescu |
like, gavin et all, should pay a daily fee to be allowed into the amusement park where they pretend like they matter |
| 21:53 |
mircea_popescu |
much like people pay to go to the theatre. |
| 21:54 |
mircea_popescu |
much like strippers and whores pay for their place of work, don't get paid by the landlord. |
| 21:54 |
ben_vulpes |
they are paying, the bill just isn't due yet. |
| 21:54 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess. |
| 21:56 |
bagels7 |
being a whore is > working minimum wage your whole life |
| 21:57 |
mircea_popescu |
depends. spinoza managed just fine on minimum wage. |
| 21:58 |
ben_vulpes |
huh i think mine's wedged elsewhere |
| 21:58 |
ben_vulpes |
nope nm |
| 21:59 |
mircea_popescu |
chain reorg ? |
| 21:59 |
mircea_popescu |
"Despite being drowned in graceful donations and membership fees, they just keep piling new and new code without proper specification and proper testing, making mistakes or even forks inevitable and thus providing cover for abominable interests." |
| 21:59 |
mircea_popescu |
you know, jurov is actually a very talented historian. |
| 21:59 |
mircea_popescu |
i like his story best so far. |
| 22:00 |
Adlai |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923008 << a first step in some sort of appropriate direction could be http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/2014/11/daily-and-weekly-bitcoin-transaction.html although that article doesn't go far enough for interesting results |
| 22:00 |
assbot |
Logged on 15-11-2014 02:49:52; mircea_popescu: Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does. |
| 22:00 |
assbot |
Neighbourhood Pool Watch: Daily and weekly bitcoin transaction cycles |
| 22:01 |
mircea_popescu |
Adlai i meant, "wtf s.mpoe price does" |
| 22:01 |
mircea_popescu |
i thought that's what you were asking about. |
| 22:01 |
Adlai |
ah. well, both? |
| 22:02 |
ben_vulpes |
Adlai: bitcoin days destroyed is a good correlation to check too |
| 22:02 |
Adlai |
that, and block reward (fee amount, as opposed to fee count) |
| 22:03 |
ben_vulpes |
what's the thesis on block reward? |
| 22:03 |
Adlai |
not specifically relating to mpoe, more for possible next steps for analyzing bitcoin network activity metrics |
| 22:04 |
Adlai |
the article i linked looks just at confirmed transaction count, which is a narrow metric of all the stuff happening across the bitcoin network |
| 22:06 |
* |
Adlai looks at http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/ to place this activity in historical context |
| 22:06 |
assbot |
S.MPOE Analysis - Btc Alpha |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html |
| |
↖ |
| 22:06 |
assbot |
lenta |
| 22:08 |
mircea_popescu |
aha ? |
| 22:08 |
asciilifeform |
translation mine. very quick'n'dirty. |
| 22:12 |
Adlai |
while people might not treat people as interchangeable, dama fortuna does. "shit happens", especially in warzones... is the revelation in this article supposed to be surprising? |
| 22:12 |
* |
Adlai probably used the word "article" a little liberally there |
| 22:12 |
asciilifeform |
only to victims of usg cranial reformatting. |
| 22:16 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: qntra submission? |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/MH%2017%20flight%20paths_0.png |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
^ 'he ran into my knife! he ran into my knife - ten times.' |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: yes, nominated for consideration on qntra |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
or however that goes. |
| 22:16 |
* |
asciilifeform has no idea |
| 22:17 |
thestringpuller |
cazalla ^^^ |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
and, |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917653 |
| 22:17 |
assbot |
Logged on 12-11-2014 00:20:12; mircea_popescu: i don't see you churning out an article a week about how "evil nato" and "nice putin" |
| 22:17 |
cazalla |
thestringpuller, not up to date on logs so no idea what this conversation is about yet |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
message to moscow - can i pleez get thirty coins of silver now. |
| 22:18 |
asciilifeform |
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923049 |
| 22:18 |
assbot |
Logged on 15-11-2014 03:06:23; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html |
| 22:18 |
assbot |
Last 18 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0FCDYXH.txt ) |
| 22:18 |
Adlai |
!b 18 |
| 22:19 |
Adlai |
that is some impressive lazyness, cazalla. i like it. |
| 22:19 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16402 @ 0.00043481 = 7.1318 BTC [+] |
| 22:21 |
cazalla |
Adlai, i read the logs daily, just yet to finish today |
| 22:22 |
assbot |
[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1249 @ 0.0012 = 1.4988 BTC |
| 22:23 |
thestringpuller |
Adlai: cazalla has a media empire to run |
| 22:24 |
* |
Adlai is exponentially more likely to have read a log entry, according to the shortest path from the present moment back in time to the target entry, where b-a.com links are weighted roughly the same as simply reading backwards |
| 22:26 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: 0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage... << the wallet code oughn't be snipped outright, but corralled. for later porting to msdos. |
| 22:27 |
Adlai |
now that's an interesting hypothesis to test: a bot lurks and tracks "shortest path" to each past message, then records when i link it as opposed to somebody else links it to me |
| 22:27 |
asciilifeform |
(well, not necessarily msdos. any sufficiently deterministic system.) |
| 22:27 |
Adlai |
for increasingly stoned values of "interesting" |
| 22:28 |
asciilifeform |
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-10-2014#894581 << that thread. |
| 22:28 |
assbot |
Logged on 25-10-2014 03:56:49; asciilifeform: the correct solution is that (now unix-only) turdcoind will listen on a tty. serial tty. |
| 22:30 |
decimation |
asciilifeform: ideally in hardware, with physically separate ports |
| 22:31 |
thestringpuller |
can't ssh? no pts? |
| 22:31 |
Adlai |
https://imgur.com/cuVBhfh |
| 22:32 |
decimation |
thestringpuller: you want to ssh to your wallet? |
| 22:32 |
thestringpuller |
i ssh to my spending wallet |
| 22:33 |
thestringpuller |
but given buterin's waterfall I emptied it out |
| 22:34 |
cazalla |
asciilifeform, as much as i appreciate the translation (my primary school teacher died on mh17), it's a bit of a stretch for qntra to publish it as bitcoin news |
| 22:34 |
Adlai |
http://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh << ie, "advertising costs, PR, and miscellaneous" outweighed "ipo fees" during these months |
| 22:35 |
cazalla |
i mean, i see the angle given governments but still |
| 22:35 |
Adlai |
*these last 15 months |
| 22:35 |
cazalla |
Adlai, i'm up to date on logs now btw |
| 22:35 |
decimation |
how do these 'northern route' theorists discount the satellite contacts from the engine control systems? |
| 22:36 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13737 @ 0.00042921 = 5.8961 BTC [-] |
| 22:36 |
Adlai |
or, in the king's english: MPOE needs to increase IPOs/¼ |
| 22:36 |
Adlai |
or mpex |
| 22:37 |
* |
Adlai can never quite tell the two apart, sorta like body/blood and bread/wine |
| 22:38 |
decimation |
asciilifeform: re: our conversation about uav control systems: http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/10/why-air-force-drones-rely-on-horsehair-to-land/ << "That’s because the MQ-1/9 are controlled on Ku-Band, which has a two second delay back to the States ... Because of that, launch and recovery experts — trained specifically at Creech AFB for this part of the operation — are based much closer to the area of operations and |
| 22:39 |
decimation |
use C-band, which has no delay. " |
| 22:39 |
cazalla |
it is interesting they release the images just as the g20 starts here in australia |
| 22:39 |
thestringpuller |
adlai that image won't load |
| 22:40 |
Adlai |
https://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh.png?0 "MPOE Net Expenses" snipped from http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/#cash_flow |
| 22:42 |
thestringpuller |
Adlai do you know about MPCD? |
| 22:42 |
Adlai |
(link works through torify curl, not sure why anything else should fail) |
| 22:42 |
Adlai |
!s mpcd |
| 22:42 |
assbot |
2 results for 'mpcd' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=mpcd |
| 22:42 |
thestringpuller |
yup |
| 22:42 |
Adlai |
mpcd = 1JPvucRfu3ZzEvfBUQTJwsxMrZjeTqD6zR ? |
| 22:43 |
decimation |
;;ticker |
| 22:43 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 394.74, Best ask: 395.71, Bid-ask spread: 0.97000, Last trade: 394.71, 24 hour volume: 18807.38370404, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.951568236 |
| 22:43 |
thestringpuller |
https://bitcointa.lk/threads/mpex-cdo-roll-call-for-bond-issuers.50044/#post-798717 |
| 22:44 |
thestringpuller |
For the reason MPCD failed, is likely the reason MPIF is struggling to find profit centers. |
| 22:44 |
thestringpuller |
Which effects the entire MPOE economy. |
| 22:44 |
thestringpuller |
MPEx* |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
;;isup qntra.net |
| 22:48 |
gribble |
qntra.net is up |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
odd. |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
entirely dead here. |
| 22:48 |
assbot |
its been down for 20min |
| 22:48 |
joecool |
dead here too |
| 22:49 |
asciilifeform |
cazalla: if blob is unfit for qntra - whatever. |
| 22:52 |
Adlai |
well, it looks like MPCD "failed" (the contract didn't fail, the shares "just" lost value) due to investing in what could be called "rockstar investors", who seem to make a habit of burning out spectacularly, taking half the fanbase with them |
| 22:54 |
Adlai |
more than any bug i've (inadvertently? subliminally coerced into?) introduced to scalpl, i regret the times that i've manually tweaked its trading parameters, and contaminated its performance data with human idiosyncrasies |
| 22:54 |
decimation |
qntra.net is dead here too |
| 22:54 |
decimation |
someone is messing with routing tables |
| 22:55 |
decimation |
trilema is dead too |
| 22:55 |
asciilifeform |
aha. |
| 22:56 |
decimation |
they are on neighboring subnets |
| 22:56 |
Adlai |
;;isup qntra.net |
| 22:56 |
gribble |
qntra.net is up |
| 22:57 |
assbot |
log1 as well, same box afaik |
| 22:57 |
thestringpuller |
same problem decimation |
| 22:58 |
assbot |
its probably our friend 'little numbers' as i call him. he visited bitbet earlier for a moment. |
| 22:59 |
decimation |
my router bounces from telia to an isp in pheomix called "cwie llc" |
| 22:59 |
decimation |
traceroute that is |
| 22:59 |
decimation |
s/phoemix/phoenix/ |
| 22:59 |
assbot |
phoenix? would be correct. |
| 23:02 |
decimation |
is that you kako? |
| 23:02 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: can't ssh? no pts? << there is no reason why wallet should be routable to the net. |
| 23:02 |
asciilifeform |
thestringpuller: idea was - optoisolated point to point serial link. |
| 23:03 |
asciilifeform |
wallet - 'speaks when spoken to.' |
| 23:03 |
asciilifeform |
and not otherwise. |
| 23:03 |
asciilifeform |
and only when spoken to through the rx/tx wire. |
| 23:03 |
assbot |
would you believe me either way? |
| 23:03 |
decimation |
sure, if you responded as kako |
| 23:07 |
decimation |
asciilifeform: yeah that was my point.. just because something could be 'on the net' doesn't mean it should |
| 23:09 |
thestringpuller |
asciilifeform: i understand |
| 23:11 |
decimation |
!up cascadian_lurker |
| 23:12 |
cascadian_lurker |
thanks d |
| 23:12 |
cascadian_lurker |
dunno how to tab complete on a pnohe |
| 23:12 |
decimation |
lol |
| 23:13 |
cascadian_lurker |
logs down? |
| 23:14 |
decimation |
log1 is down for me, log isn't |
| 23:15 |
cascadian_lurker |
I get no love at either endpoint |
| 23:21 |
assbot |
[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26764 @ 0.00043157 = 11.5505 BTC [+] |
| 23:26 |
assbot |
log2 anyone? |
| 23:28 |
assbot |
log1 is back |
| 23:31 |
cazalla |
qntra is back |
| 23:32 |
decimation |
was the server down? |
| 23:35 |
cazalla |
not sure, i just f5 f5 f5 f5 like anyone else |
| 23:43 |
BingoBoingo |
assbot: SKip 2, loge |
| 23:44 |
cazalla |
when looking for news, i come across quite a few MLM schemes for bitcoin such as bitcoincycler.net, quite a few use pic/video of JuliaTourianski_ lol |
| 23:44 |
cazalla |
putin v aussie pm - http://i.imgur.com/orNOUF5.png |
| 23:47 |
decimation |
once when I emerged from the Tube in London I was handed one of those free tabloids by some bum. I was amazed at the extremely low quality writing, and pro-welfare ads |
| 23:48 |
The20YearIRCloud |
Sport, decimation ? |
| 23:49 |
decimation |
eh? |
| 23:50 |
The20YearIRCloud |
Weekend/sunday/weekday sport |
| 23:51 |
decimation |
yeah I guess that's why people don't immediately toss in the rubbish bid |
| 23:51 |
The20YearIRCloud |
https://twitter.com/thesundaysport |
| 23:51 |
assbot |
Sunday Sport (@thesundaysport) | Twitter |
| 23:51 |
decimation |
eh, it could have been. I felt dirty touching the thing, didn't examine it closely |
| 23:51 |
The20YearIRCloud |
I love their 'articles', locally we used to have weekly world news, and it went under. However in the UK for some reason tabloids are HUGE there. Along with soap operas |
| 23:52 |
The20YearIRCloud |
http://www.sundaysport.com/?p=17812 |
| 23:52 |
assbot |
DRUNK BONKS DONER KEBAB | Sunday Sport |
| 23:52 |
decimation |
this stuff makes the daily mail look classy |
| 23:53 |
The20YearIRCloud |
https://twitter.com/thesundaysport/status/531177165212360704 |
| 23:53 |
assbot |
Warning: Don't buff your ballbag on a shoe shine machine. Here's why - in tomorrow's /thesundaysport http://t.co/moIlQF7RUE |
| 23:54 |
decimation |
here's the american version http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/14/gruber-has-made-at-least-5-9-million-for-government-work/ |
| 23:54 |
assbot |
Gruber Has Made At Least $5.9 Million For Government Work | The Daily Caller |
| 23:56 |
The20YearIRCloud |
That's a website though i think, the sport is an actual magazine in most places |
| 23:57 |
decimation |
why don't they have tabloids based in say columbus? |
| 23:57 |
The20YearIRCloud |
We have a few in the US, and they're all celeb rags. We *had* WWN but they went under |
| 23:57 |
The20YearIRCloud |
We'll never know what happened to batboy unfortunately |
| 23:58 |
The20YearIRCloud |
They still have a site, but no one visits it : http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/54540/chicago-to-be-renamed-obama-city/ |
| 23:58 |
assbot |
CHICAGO TO BE RENAMED “OBAMA CITY” | Weekly World News |
| 23:58 |
decimation |
lol |