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00:03	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.08179999 = 0.818 BTC [-] {4}
00:05	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 73 @ 0.00539358 = 0.3937 BTC [+] {4}
00:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 128 @ 0.00539574 = 0.6907 BTC [+] {5}
00:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 77 @ 0.00539999 = 0.4158 BTC [+]
00:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15655 @ 0.00087423 = 13.6861 BTC [-] {3}
00:22	mircea_popescu	lmao @bash
00:23	KRS-One	.bait
00:23	KRS-One	.bait
00:23	ozbot	http://24.media.tumblr.com/ee677c6897b25e3cced894c5b5ecd7fd/tumblr_mej4zorNTX1qg7sdjo1_r1_1280.jpg
00:25	mircea_popescu	https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgfZiDJIMAA-_yT.png
00:28	Duffer1	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Md1Ms6EEbQ
00:28	ozbot	Darkplace - One Track Lover - YouTube
00:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06745001 = 0.3373 BTC [-]
00:36	moiety	merry 15th all! can get on with the rest of the year now.
00:36	moiety	wtf lol how to walk on ice? i've seen it all.. no, wait, re-enact that poster with gold crackhead...then i will have seen everything
00:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7900 @ 0.0008738 = 6.903 BTC [-] {2}
00:37	Duffer1	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu51vkm0SuQ
00:37	ozbot	Fenslerfilm GI Joe PSA 05 - ice - YouTube
00:38	moiety	http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/14/gallery-you-wont-believe-what-the-authorities-found-in-this-mexican-drug-lords-villa-4304530/
00:38	ozbot	Mexican drug lord's house: You won't believe what the authorities found in this Mexican drug Lord's
00:52	cazalla	mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi mi
00:53	cazalla	that's for you Duffer1
00:53	Duffer1	hehe
00:55	asciilifeform	moiety: probably a counterfeiter's shop, as well as whatever else they did.
00:55	mircea_popescu	anything good ?
00:55	Duffer1	http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/22-more-gold-machine-guns-and-pistols-most-were-never-fired-just-held-for-collection-value.jpg lol
00:55	moiety	i actually think gold guns end up looking cheap
00:56	mircea_popescu	what's with people and gold guns
00:56	mircea_popescu	gold makes shitty gun
00:56	mircea_popescu	s
00:56	asciilifeform	plated.
00:56	asciilifeform	no one in his right mind would make an actual gold ak
00:56	mircea_popescu	or would they
00:57	moiety	i would like a rainbow sig
00:57	moiety	i bet they would if they could
00:57	moiety	rainbow sig: http://www.kygunco.com/prodimages/30277-DEFAULT-L.jpg very pretty
00:57	asciilifeform	i say plated. the rivets are in the right places, and if it were solid gold, it'd be welded.
00:57	asciilifeform	unless it is a perversely slavish imitation.
00:58	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14400 @ 0.00087371 = 12.5814 BTC [-] {2}
00:58	BingoBoingo	I dunno if a gold barrel could do anything other than explode.
00:58	moiety	no one swept me off my feet yesterday, yous will have to put up with me a bit longer,sorry
00:58	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: depends whether one insisted on firing it...
00:59	moiety	would gold not just melt or buckle on firing?
00:59	asciilifeform	certainly.
01:01	asciilifeform	the most interesting thing in the picture is, well... not actually in the picture.
01:01	asciilifeform	that is: 'why now'
01:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5866 @ 0.00087454 = 5.1301 BTC [+]
01:12	B007	I made a bash script to txt me hourly google trends; should be interesting
01:15	asciilifeform	anyone else find it curious that these 'bust' photos never seem to feature gold bars?
01:15	asciilifeform	or even simulacra thereof
01:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.55498489 = 3.3299 BTC [+] {5}
01:16	moiety	i hadn't thought of that but it's a really good point, i would rather bars than all those notes
01:17	asciilifeform	likewise, quite a few of these shots look rather familiar.
01:17	asciilifeform	hence, probably a stage set.
01:17	asciilifeform	unless all the mexican barons share the same lion.
01:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00087454 = 7.9583 BTC [+]
01:19	moiety	lololol
01:20	moiety	nice house though
01:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 36 @ 0.08977719 = 3.232 BTC [+] {7}
01:22	moiety	i thought that was wrong
01:22	moiety	they say black leopards... they are jaguars
01:23	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: I imagine the gold bars are better concealed than the plated firearms.
01:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 8 @ 0.10999999 = 0.88 BTC [+]
01:25	moiety	bars are aninvestment, guns are a collection though
01:26	asciilifeform	what, then, are the benjamins?
01:28	moiety	ijust mean you dont get bars to look at and put in cabinets
01:33	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: The Benjamins are probably toilet paper
01:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4050 @ 0.00087454 = 3.5419 BTC [+]
01:36	Vexual	Hey BingoBoingo, did your openex withdrewing work?
01:40	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i always imagined they're non-functioning
01:40	mircea_popescu	not even holes drilled in the barrel
01:40	BingoBoingo	Vexual: It did indeed
01:41	Vexual	Thre cool, thanks
01:44	mircea_popescu	anyone here rebelmouse.com ?
01:46	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Any reason to try it. Homepage only seems to have buzzwords
01:46	mircea_popescu	no but it linked to trilema lots
01:46	mircea_popescu	so i figured 50-50 it's sopmeone here.
01:47	Vexual	only 360 readers?
01:48	mircea_popescu	anyway, since im in there some gems :
01:48	mircea_popescu	- http://log.bitcoin-assets.com122138
01:48	mircea_popescu	[...]
01:48	mircea_popescu	- http://www.loper-os.org7373
01:48	mircea_popescu	- http://qz.com/174757/bitcoin-company-offers-stock-denominated-in...6868
01:48	mircea_popescu	seems stan beats atlantic media.
01:49	BingoBoingo	lol
01:49	mircea_popescu	considering how much that adventure cost...
01:49	BingoBoingo	I've been finding odd content aggregators linking me from the start.
01:50	mircea_popescu	yeah there's a slew of those
01:50	mircea_popescu	semalt.com seosatnight.com etcetc
01:52	B007	mircea_popescu: what would you pay 1000 btc for?
01:55	mircea_popescu	the new york times
01:56	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: I hope you mean the whole operation.
01:56	mircea_popescu	well yes.
01:58	Vexual	Imagine the page 3 girls
01:58	B007	I wonder if bitcoin is going to go up
01:58	B007	maybe I should buy
01:59	asciilifeform	afaik mouse is a lameraggregator.
01:59	asciilifeform	slurps crap from reddit et al.
01:59	mircea_popescu	o via reddit huhg
02:00	mircea_popescu	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/New_York_Times_Frontpage_1914-07-29.png
02:02	Vexual	manifesto from emporer
02:03	BingoBoingo	Vexual: And NYT doesn't have page 3 girls, yet...
02:03	Vexual	no i might have been confusing it with the sun
02:06	Vexual	what stock prices would you print for exchanges that don't close?
02:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00087391 = 12.6717 BTC [-] {3}
02:19	mircea_popescu	24hrw
02:24	mircea_popescu	http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ellen-page-comes-as-gay-680563
02:24	ozbot	Ellen Page Comes Out As Gay: 'I Am Tired of Lying by Omission' (Exclusive) - The Hollywood Reporter
02:24	mircea_popescu	i guess she;s kind-of hot now
02:24	moiety	i was just reading that too
02:24	mircea_popescu	provided she doesn't start dating elen degeneratis or some shit
02:26	moiety	also got this http://i.imgur.com/sy2sQci.png people are dicks
02:26	assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00194567 = 0.8756 BTC [-]
02:28	mircea_popescu	ew
02:29	Vexual	juno the one about the hot lesbian?
02:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19100 @ 0.00087481 = 16.7089 BTC [+] {2}
02:35	moiety	what's .co.za again? south africa?
02:35	mircea_popescu	zaire ?
02:35	Vexual	south africa
02:35	moiety	so SA people send me a funeral notice (in scotland) for american funeral home. very good asshats
02:35	Vexual	zef as
02:36	mircea_popescu	wow it is sa
02:37	moiety	true arseholes are a special breed of people aren't they
02:37	Vexual	interesting place
02:37	Vexual	its a bit like australia if the dutch knocked it up first
02:37	moiety	i wouldn't like to go
02:38	moiety	i knew a girl here thatleft age 8 to live there, came back in her 20s
02:38	moiety	she hated it
02:39	mircea_popescu	i knew a girl that loved it, then got raped for being white, aged about 15,
02:39	mircea_popescu	then couldn't get anyone prosecuted for it out of the entire gang, so she left once she was 18
02:39	assbot	[MPEX] [S.NSA] 700 @ 0.000155 = 0.1085 BTC [+]
02:40	B007	wow
02:41	MisterE	moiety: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/fake-funeral-notice-scam-low-fraudsters-ftc/story?id=22498185&google_editors_picks=true
02:41	MisterE	looks like you got phished
02:41	moiety	wow raped because she was white?
02:42	mircea_popescu	kinda how it works in south africa.
02:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.00087543 = 4.3772 BTC [+]
02:43	MisterE	security for whites is crazy there
02:43	MisterE	armed guards with AKs and shit
02:43	MisterE	place is a mess yo
02:43	moiety	wow MisterE good to see. it did try to get me to d/l something but i cancelled it. will i be ok?
02:43	Vexual	isn't there 10+ spoken languages right in cape town?
02:43	mircea_popescu	moiety possibly.
02:43	MisterE	hope so moiety but your computer can download stuff without you knowing, especially if there any known vunerabilities in your browser
02:44	moiety	better run a malwarebytes scan then?
02:44	Vexual	are you in the market for a funeral?
02:44	MisterE	personally, if it's a win box I'd take it offline and boot up with a scanner boot disk
02:44	moiety	no i got all mine booked up last month Vexual
02:44	assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00212562 = 0.9565 BTC [+]
02:45	moiety	kk MisterE just scared me brb
02:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.NSA] 4300 @ 0.000155 = 0.6665 BTC [+]
02:46	assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00195346 = 0.8791 BTC [-]
02:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.BBET] 1469 @ 0.00060598 = 0.8902 BTC [+]
02:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00087565 = 13.2223 BTC [+]
02:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5061 @ 0.00087565 = 4.4317 BTC [+]
02:58	assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 450 @ 0.00195346 = 0.8791 BTC [-]
03:06	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UdJhqVsc8
03:06	ozbot	Jack Parow - Afrikaans is Dood - YouTube
03:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6800 @ 0.0008758 = 5.9554 BTC [+] {2}
03:14	moiety	\o/
03:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00087464 = 16.3558 BTC [-] {3}
03:20	Vexual	disease free?
03:22	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/on-july-29-1914/
03:22	ozbot	On July 29, 1914 pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
03:24	moiety	i hope so
03:24	moiety	40 things!
03:25	moiety	yay i can read again
03:26	Vexual	i thought how in all probability noone alive on earth today bought that newspaper
03:26	Vexual	new yorkers dont live to 120 do they? all that smog
03:28	BingoBoingo	moiety: Do you want a loan you can apply to the purchase of trilema credits since you are in the WOT nao?
03:30	moiety	that's very kind and i would normally, but I'm not in a position to give myself deadlines at the moment BingoBoingo
03:31	benkay	i dunno moiety, you might be able to talk your way into a zero interest loan
03:31	benkay	spring bubble hasn't kicked in terribly hard yet
03:32	moiety	i just looked it up, i don;t actually need a loan, i just need to know how to buy now
03:33	moiety	it was last april it was low wasn't it? i remember
03:33	moiety	april/may time i think
03:33	mircea_popescu	benkay you mean asset boobl ?
03:33	BingoBoingo	moiety: Last february though there wasn't a prolongued dip like this.
03:34	moiety	but then china hadn't banned it last year
03:34	Vexual	get out in may and stay away
03:34	BingoBoingo	moiety: At this time last year the only serious Chinese involvement was ASICMiner.
03:36	BingoBoingo	ASICMIner was building to that really sharp bubble.
03:36	moiety	what's the current with bfl thesedays?
03:36	moiety	they had grovellers out in force in london in november
03:37	BingoBoingo	moiety: BFL still isn't shipping Monarchs
03:37	mircea_popescu	well they're only what, 5 months late ?
03:37	moiety	lol still? hhaha the guy at the london expo simply said: sorry
03:38	Duffer1	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmOLtTGvsbM&feature=kp
03:38	ozbot	Toto - Rosanna - YouTube
03:38	BingoBoingo	moiety: First rule of Bitcoin is anything happening in London is at best Lols.
03:38	Vexual	hehe
03:38	mircea_popescu	http://www.youtube.com/embed/DwxCBIizQYU
03:38	ozbot	Hohenfriedberger march + Prussian army - YouTube
03:40	BingoBoingo	So... I made about a 200% gain selling the bulk of my Altcoin today.
03:40	Vexual	i made 10% yesterday, who are we taking it from?
03:40	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo would you like to be my openex broker ? :D
03:40	Vexual	mike_c?
03:41	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Maybe?
03:41	mircea_popescu	pankkake pls to pay to BingoBoingo 100k atc, let's see what he can do.
03:41	Vexual	fuck a man with a plan is the last thing i need
03:41	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo you get a month.
03:41	mircea_popescu	have fun.
03:42	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: How much did you buy the ATC at?
03:42	Vexual	125
03:42	Vexual	my guess
03:42	mircea_popescu	Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
03:42	mircea_popescu	what diff does it make ?
03:42	KRS-One	.bait
03:42	ozbot	http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3g532Ex6K1qaooc8o1_500.jpg
03:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00087593 = 3.6789 BTC [+] {2}
03:42	KRS-One	damn its dark in there.
03:43	Vexual	lol krs-1 thats custom
03:43	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: I'm just thinking if you have a target sort of gain I should shoot for.
03:43	mircea_popescu	nope.
03:43	Vexual	double the atc and bring back some btc
03:43	mircea_popescu	^
03:44	BingoBoingo	I'll see what I can do.
03:44	mircea_popescu	don't get too wrapped up in it, it's alt after all.
03:46	BingoBoingo	Of course. I mean it wouldn't be worth it to copy the Doge profiteers and whore myself out in the name of Moon.
03:46	mircea_popescu	may its name be always cheez.
03:47	BingoBoingo	The z is important. No actual milk or rennet was used in the making of the cheez
03:49	Vexual	"we got the cheez!"
03:50	Vexual	scott cann:into the blue
03:51	BingoBoingo	This ATC trading thing would be so much easier if herbi was still in the game.
03:51	moiety	otc is not the place to paypal is it
03:51	BingoBoingo	moiety: It can be if both parties have rep appropriate to the amount being traded.
03:52	BingoBoingo	Paypal/Ebay have been on an anit-BTC warpath recently though.
03:52	moiety	i spend all my time telling others not to bother lol
03:53	moiety	bitcoin isn't a very easy world is it
03:53	BingoBoingo	moiety: Have you read Mircea's variety speak article yet?
03:53	moiety	yes
03:54	BingoBoingo	Finding things that don't work is easy. Things that work though are unknowable until after the fact.
03:56	BingoBoingo	My favorite part of ATC trading is it is like all of the trading I have ever done.
03:56	Vexual	ditto
03:58	moiety	i'm just entirely fed up of the hassle
03:58	moiety	I've never managed to buy it yet because of one problem or another
03:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6100 @ 0.00087319 = 5.3265 BTC [-] {2}
03:59	Vexual	perhaps the nigerians are a sign
03:59	BingoBoingo	moiety: Never bought what?
03:59	moiety	btc
04:00	moiety	someone else has always done it for me
04:02	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WCFUGCOLLU
04:02	ozbot	Take The Money And Run - The Steve Miller Band (Lyrics + HQ) - YouTube
04:05	moiety	plus remember bingo, i was being paid it before, i had no need to buy
04:05	Vexual	nice
04:06	moiety	i only ever bought hosting with that, tipped the rest to other people
04:06	moiety	i have THE best email address BingoBoingo :D palindrome email address almost
04:07	Vexual	nigerians love palendromes
04:07	moiety	nigerians scare the hell out of me
04:07	moiety	all the compounds are armed guarded
04:09	Vexual	they see a palendromic email and theyre all like, this old coot is loaded!
04:09	Vexual	i should get lauxev.com for lolz
04:10	BingoBoingo	moiety: Back then you could have gotten BTC at $80 per
04:10	moiety	ik ik ik gah
04:11	moiety	will it ever dip that low again do you think?
04:12	BingoBoingo	moiety: Maybe on Gox?
04:12	moiety	lololol
04:12	moiety	gox will die this year surely?
04:12	Vexual	smells like a rouge goo dev
04:12	Vexual	paretheses ommitted
04:12	BingoBoingo	10 K BTC sometime this year is more likely than $80 for BTC on any platform that can actually deliver BTC.
04:13	BingoBoingo	moiety: Gox died last summer.
04:14	moiety	it's just like the queen, just clining on to the throne
04:14	moiety	clinging
04:15	BingoBoingo	No, not like the Queen at all. More like Ariel Sharon, practically dead, brain dead, just kept fresh on a ventilator.
04:15	Vexual	with bigger arms
04:16	moiety	fair point, the queen doesn't breath oxygen
04:16	moiety	will you still be awake in half hour or so?
04:17	BingoBoingo	moiety: Well I mean the queen spent the last 8 years at least able to walk, and not simply on display in the produce department
04:17	moiety	i wouldn't be so sure. i'm convinced they have her on a trolley
04:18	moiety	Do you know why they are waiting for William?
04:18	BingoBoingo	moiety: No Idea.
04:19	moiety	Charles doesn't want to do it. -- according to Lord Mowbray
04:19	moiety	he doesn't have the balls apparently
04:19	moiety	they all think (including himself) he is a little soft for it, better for william to go straight in
04:19	moiety	random snippet for the day
04:20	Vexual	he does, the people don't
04:20	moiety	he doesnt though.
04:20	moiety	he cant make decisions
04:21	Vexual	he might have some regrets and marketing people, but he does
04:21	moiety	i think you misunderstood what i was saying
04:22	Vexual	its highly likely
04:23	moiety	if charles was to go and be king, he would have to give up all his Duke of Edinburgh responsibilities etc. He has balls, what I'm meaning is he couldn't do what *he* wanted specifically
04:23	moiety	he wanted more leaway to do all the charity and good things he does
04:24	moiety	i think harry wouldve been better
04:24	moiety	do they even have a role now?
04:24	moiety	apart from waving
04:25	Vexual	he has a range of preserves
04:25	Vexual	willys got an attack copter
04:26	moiety	he looks about 70 already
04:26	Vexual	im thinking you might be right
04:27	Vexual	what a very scottish way of convincing me
04:27	moiety	lol what...badly?!
04:29	Vexual	no very well sir
04:31	moiety	where are you from Vexual?
04:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00087594 = 12.2194 BTC [+] {2}
04:32	Vexual	australie
04:34	moiety	oh election time for you then
04:34	Vexual	im not enrolled
04:34	moiety	i got enrolled to vote for independence
04:35	Vexual	cool
04:38	Vexual	i eamil secretarys when i need something done; infinitely fore effective
04:39	benkay	deploy capital
04:39	Vexual	its amazing how people will take unsolicited advice worded correctly
04:39	assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!
04:48	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go
04:48	ozbot	Johnny Cash Hurt - YouTube
04:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2750 @ 0.00087599 = 2.409 BTC [+]
04:53	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lOb799cTxM
04:53	ozbot	Black Box Ride on Time [ 1989 ] HD version - YouTube
04:56	Vexual	how the fuck am i goona play bb with 100k?
04:57	BingoBoingo	Vexual: ?
04:58	BingoBoingo	Vexual: What's Batman's greatest weapon?
04:58	Vexual	i dunno
04:58	Vexual	the call to arms from the sky?
04:59	Vexual	oh
04:59	Vexual	time for another video
04:59	Vexual	don't answer that
05:00	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Deception.
05:00	Vexual	whaddya you mean, hes fucking batman
05:00	BingoBoingo	Huh, looks like I should have put more money on Slovenia than I did.
05:01	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Yeah. But he is good at deception. That is how he uses all of these high tech weapons while hiding he is almost as rich as Mircea.
05:02	Vexual	hmm
05:02	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO5rDmSY6N4
05:02	BingoBoingo	Vexual: I mean how many peopl in Gotham can afford Batman tools? Maybe 5-10?
05:02	ozbot	Dizzee Rascal - Dirtee Cash ( Offcial Video HQ.) - YouTube
05:02	Vexual	ny gotham or gotham gotham?
05:03	Vexual	gg yah?
05:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.000876 = 3.7668 BTC [+] {2}
05:06	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Imagination land version.
05:06	Vexual	ok
05:06	BingoBoingo	I actually had a neighbor named Batman once.
05:07	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxjdg_D5YQY
05:07	ozbot	Wiley - Wearing My Rolex (Official Music Video) - YouTube
05:17	moiety	sorry delayed response: Vexual: it's a national vote, i don't think they let you email it in
05:18	Vexual	lol
05:20	moiety	BingoBoingo: batman? please tell me there was also a Robin on your street
05:20	BingoBoingo	moiety: Nah. THis was grad school so we lived in the same building.
05:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11206 @ 0.00087603 = 9.8168 BTC [+]
05:21	moiety	bound to have been a Robin too then.... ok, I'm satisfied
05:23	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inn4juu0Cfs
05:23	ozbot	Iggy Azalea - My World (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - YouTube
05:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.5584855 = 1.117 BTC [+] {2}
05:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.56822498 = 11.3645 BTC [+] {4}
05:29	BingoBoingo	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvcHVesIzMU
05:29	ozbot	Tatu - Nas Nie Dogoniat - YouTube
05:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.57287264 = 6.3016 BTC [+] {4}
05:32	BingoBoingo	Fuck Yeah, Slovenia whooped the shit out of Slovakia.
05:33	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.5755599 = 11.5112 BTC [+] {4}
05:34	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58669728 = 11.7339 BTC [+] {8}
05:35	mircea_popescu	http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/02/13/1277249/-Reporters-Without-Borders-United-States-plummets-in-Press-Freedom-Index
05:35	ozbot	Reporters Without Borders: United States plummets in Press Freedom Index
05:35	mircea_popescu	"Compared to other nations, the United States ranks just below Romania, and just above Haiti"
05:35	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.58976433 = 11.7953 BTC [+] {6}
05:35	mircea_popescu	you know... haiti.
05:36	BingoBoingo	See Mircea, your blog has been safer than mine the whole time.
05:37	mircea_popescu	Much of Eastern and Central Europe rates better than the United States, and from Western Europe, only Italy rates worse.
05:37	mircea_popescu	italy. you know... the scum of yurp
05:37	mircea_popescu	seems so lol
05:38	BingoBoingo	Well, Ever since the Etruscans, Italy has been kind of fucked
05:39	mircea_popescu	In January 2012, the SEC charged an Illinois-based investment adviser with offering to sell fictitious securities on LinkedIn and issued two alerts in an agency-wide effort to highlight the risks investors and advisory firms face when using social media. Anthony Fields offered more than $500 billion in fictitious securities through various social media websites. For example, he used LinkedIn discussions to promote fict
05:39	mircea_popescu	itious “bank guarantees” and “medium-term notes.”
05:39	mircea_popescu	sooo... anyone want to guess as to the guy's bitcointalk name ?
05:39	BingoBoingo	That's before my time.
05:40	BingoBoingo	Imma guess Augusto Croppo?
05:40	chetty	hmm something Trader ..
05:40	mircea_popescu	i have no idea whatsoever, just guessing
05:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00087604 = 9.0232 BTC [+] {2}
05:41	BingoBoingo	Phineas is the only other Illinoisian, but Anthony and Bruno are different names.
05:42	BingoBoingo	Dunno if Augusto is Illinoisian, but Anthony sounds like a name that might degrade to that nick.
05:42	mircea_popescu	nominalism seems hardly grounds to impugn anyone.
05:43	BingoBoingo	Of course not.
05:44	BingoBoingo	Which is why I made a stab in the dark thinking someone who offered the question might have had the name in mind.
05:44	Vexual	wheres the real estate guy?
05:44	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Ohio
05:45	BingoBoingo	Chicago's way outside of my area of operation anyways.
05:45	Vexual	yeah i now that, if hes buying millies he should know about the whole country
05:45	BingoBoingo	I mean they built their downtown around an open sewer
05:45	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]
05:46	BingoBoingo	Several of my favorite memories from Undergrad involve throwing up or shitting into the Chicago river.
05:47	Vexual	fuck id need many tributaries to manage that
05:48	BingoBoingo	Vexual: It worked out, because there were Sherpas in the group I traveled to Chicago with. Nobody handles sick ghostfaces better than Sherpas.
06:00	pankkake	BingoBoingo: ATC address?
		↖
06:01	BingoBoingo	pankkake: 14UCZyAxu73kF18SrsR6Ud6Xcy1ZnVWfTA
06:01	pankkake	sent
06:01	BingoBoingo	pankkake: Recieved.
06:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4284 @ 0.00087308 = 3.7403 BTC [-]
06:06	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: I'm ready to see what I can do by the Ides of March
06:06	mircea_popescu	o hey that works out splendidly doesn't it. teh ideas of march.
06:09	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9399 @ 0.00087282 = 8.2036 BTC [-] {2}
06:09	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Of course.
06:09	pankkake	I wonder how many have stopped mining atc waiting for the diff to come down
06:10	mircea_popescu	kind of self feeding cycle that neh ?
06:10	pankkake	long diff periods definitely don't work for altcoins
06:10	BingoBoingo	pankkake: I wouldn't be surprised if kakobrekla is waiting for the drop to fire up the Buttfuries
06:10	Vexual	my 7770 wont cut it
06:11	Vexual	even p2pool
06:11	Vexual	when that new am shit dropping?
06:12	BingoBoingo	Oh, roughly 12 hours until my birthday starts.
06:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00087228 = 6.5421 BTC [-] {2}
06:29	Vexual	ukyo could point his machines at it and get red by summer
06:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4137 @ 0.00087552 = 3.622 BTC [+] {3}
06:31	Vexual	it's my cat's birthday
06:34	BingoBoingo	Vexual, I may or may not be your cat in disguise
06:35	Vexual	yar, i don't know what im doing
06:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13450 @ 0.00087671 = 11.7917 BTC [+] {3}
06:36	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Maybe lock your cat in the closet and if I keep responding on IRC, you can by empiricism demonstrate I am not your cat.
06:37	Vexual	actual cat?
06:38	BingoBoingo	Vexual: The only meanigful test is actual empiricism
06:40	Vexual	i thought my cat was somewhere eating things...
06:41	BingoBoingo	Vexual: Eating things or communicating through a mouth operated Internet device.
06:46	mircea_popescu	http://www.zeekrewardsreceivership.com/
06:46	ozbot	ZeekRewards Receivership Website
06:47	mircea_popescu	anyone remember those ?
06:49	BingoBoingo	Nope
06:50	mircea_popescu	at the time pirate ran his 7% a week thing, there was an irl 7% a week thing
06:50	mircea_popescu	that.
06:50	mircea_popescu	after pirate collapsed people speculated there was some relation.
06:56	BingoBoingo	I should have started a lot earlier
06:59	BingoBoingo	I missed the era of the stupid controlling an actual portion of the BTC monetary mass.
07:00	mircea_popescu	nutty times. everyone knew better.
07:00	mircea_popescu	;;ticker
07:00	gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 653.0, Best ask: 653.17, Bid-ask spread: 0.17000, Last trade: 653.0, 24 hour volume: 37379.48623285, 24 hour low: 625.0, 24 hour high: 712.9, 24 hour vwap: 662.084329952
07:01	BingoBoingo	I just regret that one of the hot active threads when I started was the Usagi == Scammer thread back before Deprived did a runner.
07:01	BingoBoingo	Time machine would be a better investment for anyone interested in BTC than an ASIC.
07:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.588 BTC [-]
07:02	BingoBoingo	I wonder how long people could be strung along on a time machine pre-order though.
07:05	mircea_popescu	lol
07:05	mircea_popescu	make sure it has fans.
07:06	BingoBoingo	I'll make sure the photoshop shames Box of Fans Labs itself.
07:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.07200001 = 0.432 BTC [-]
07:12	mircea_popescu	!t m x.eur
07:12	assbot	[MPEX:X.EUR] 1D: 0.00194567 / 0.00199455 / 0.00212562 (1800 shares, 3.59 BTC), 7D: 0.00194567 / 0.00198701 / 0.00212562 (3350 shares, 6.66 BTC), 30D: 0.0016245 / 0.00177273 / 0.00212562 (22850 shares, 40.51 BTC)
07:12	mircea_popescu	how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002
07:12	mircea_popescu	the eur is like 300 neh ?
07:12	BingoBoingo	Maybe davout is slacking?
07:12	pankkake	ThickAsThieves: I realize coinmarketcap actually wants number of coins, not number of blocks. I fixed it, replace "blocks" by "coins" in the URL I gave you
07:13	mircea_popescu	make a fucking killing, buy futures worth 0.003 at 0.002
07:13	mircea_popescu	i guess everyone was slacking
07:14	BingoBoingo	Well, operation dominate the ATC market may have begun?
07:15	FabianB	;;calc 1/0.00212518
07:15	gribble	470.548377079
07:16	FabianB	;;ticker --market all --currency eur
07:16	gribble	MtGox BTCEUR last: 244.1, vol: 7081.41796619 | Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 473.79027, vol: 36481.52612339 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 465.0, vol: 532.78059 | CampBX BTCEUR last: 475.3602, vol: 314.60590746 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 478.829596, vol: 13103.20800000 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.584660985
07:16	assbot	123!
07:16	FabianB	< 300 eur is only gox
07:16	mircea_popescu	ah i just looked at bitcoincharts basket
07:16	mircea_popescu	i guess they killed mtgoxusd but not eur
07:17	FabianB	looks like future is priced ok
07:17	pankkake	bitcoin-central is 485
07:17	mircea_popescu	;;calc 1/485
07:17	gribble	0.0020618556701
07:17	pankkake	and still not on bitcoincharts!
07:18	mircea_popescu	FabianB good to see the mkt is actually healthjy, i had a moment of panic.
07:19	FabianB	nah, looks good
07:19	mircea_popescu	;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.0016245
07:19	gribble	1.30847645429
07:19	mircea_popescu	;;calc 0.00212562 / 00.00194567
07:19	gribble	Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
07:19	mircea_popescu	;;calc 0.00212562 / 0.00194567
07:19	gribble	1.09248742079
07:20	mircea_popescu	you know that is beautiful, 1.30 for 30 days, 1.09 for the week
07:21	mircea_popescu	anyway, im off. gl everyone.
07:21	kakobrekla	grenade launcher to you too.
		~ 16 minutes ~
07:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00087552 = 3.6772 BTC [-]
07:38	davout	hi all
07:38	BingoBoingo	Hai davout
07:41	davout	"how the fuck has this been trading at 0.002" <- I WTF'd
07:41	davout	:D
07:44	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00087552 = 5.1656 BTC [-]
07:53	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]
07:54	kakobrekla	what is 'this' ?
07:54	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] 100 @ 0.0055 = 0.55 BTC
07:55	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.07379895 = 0.369 BTC [+] {2}
07:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.12210003 = 0.4884 BTC [-]
07:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.19376446 = 0.7751 BTC [+]
07:56	kakobrekla	;;calc 20000/356
07:56	gribble	56.1797752809
07:59	BingoBoingo	K, everybody. Altcoin is ready for the Moon. Imma get some sleep.
07:59	davout	kakobrekla: X.EUR
07:59	kakobrekla	a a.
07:59	kakobrekla	BingoBoingo : grenade lancher!
07:59	kakobrekla	launcher
08:00	BingoBoingo	kakobrekla: Of course. It is the best sounds to go to sleep to.
08:00	kakobrekla	:)
08:00	BingoBoingo	Napalm scented candles are relaxing too.
08:01	kakobrekla	lel can you get those?!
08:01	BingoBoingo	kakobrekla: You can make them.
08:01	kakobrekla	myea i guess so
08:01	kakobrekla	need some azn meat first or smth
08:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00087552 = 0.1751 BTC [-]
08:10	BingoBoingo	kakobrekla: Is goat azn enough?
08:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12569 @ 0.00087707 = 11.0239 BTC [+]
08:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.07379895 = 0.5166 BTC [+]
08:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 10 @ 0.12210003 = 1.221 BTC [-]
08:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.19376446 = 1.7439 BTC [+]
08:21	kakobrekla	lol
08:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07379895 = 0.2214 BTC [+]
08:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.NSA] 9930 @ 0.00017 = 1.6881 BTC [+]
08:25	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8288 @ 0.00087716 = 7.2699 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 15 minutes ~
08:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.53580001 = 1.0716 BTC [-] {2}
08:44	ThickAsThieves	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yge311sFhC8
08:44	ozbot	Gene Burnett - Jump You F*#kers (A Song For Wall Street) - YouTube
08:50	ThickAsThieves	"At one point during the debate a brawl broke out in which one MP from the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) had his nose broken."
08:50	ThickAsThieves	(Turkish)
08:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1792 @ 0.00087336 = 1.5651 BTC [-] {2}
09:03	the20year1	what country ThickAsThieves?
09:08	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 450 @ 0.0002249 = 0.1012 BTC [-]
09:08	ThickAsThieves	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26205515
09:08	ozbot	BBC News - Turkish MPs pass judicial reforms amid brawl
09:08	Diablo-D3	yeah, turkey needs to figure out their shit
09:08	ThickAsThieves	there's a pic too
09:08	ThickAsThieves	of the bloody nosed guy
09:09	Diablo-D3	this is not how you conduct a democracy
09:09	kakobrekla	says some american douche
09:10	Diablo-D3	kakobrekla: I never said the USA was a democracy
09:10	punkman	I think we should have more politician brawls
09:10	Diablo-D3	but if this happened in congress, I'd want both the guy being hit and the guy hitting to be both expelled
09:11	kakobrekla	are we again playing 'i want' game?
09:11	Diablo-D3	no
09:11	Diablo-D3	because you're trolling
09:11	Diablo-D3	and you dont deserve to play it
09:12	ThickAsThieves	shit, if our politicians actually got in fistfights, americans might even pay attention to politics
09:12	ThickAsThieves	"hey bro, glad to see our coins have the same name 'ALTCOIN', can we work together? what's your plan on thealtcoin ATC?"
09:12	punkman	ThickAsThieves, not really worth the attention
09:12	ThickAsThieves	so many people ask me this
09:12	ThickAsThieves	what are my plans!>
09:12	punkman	but why not have opposing sides actually fight to pass legislation
09:12	the20year1	back in the day in the US, people would get in knife fights in congress
09:13	kakobrekla	ThickAsThieves world domination naturally.
09:13	ThickAsThieves	thanks kako, a simple enough reply
09:13	kakobrekla	o Diablo-D3 butthurt eh
09:13	kakobrekla	U CANT HAZ PLAY THIS NO!!
09:13	kakobrekla	BUT I WANT.
09:14	Diablo-D3	hahaha I just trolled kakobrekla
09:15	ThickAsThieves	http://animalnewyork.com/2014/sesame-street-fighter-real-game/
09:15	ozbot	'Sesame Street Fighter' Is a Real Game - ANIMAL
09:15	kakobrekla	i dunno who did what or who did who or what did who but i have the banhammer and i dont like your style.
09:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.073 = 0.219 BTC [-]
09:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 97 @ 0.00508498 = 0.4932 BTC [+]
09:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12210003 = 0.3663 BTC [-]
		~ 18 minutes ~
09:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12341 @ 0.00087407 = 10.7869 BTC [+]
		~ 22 minutes ~
10:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12794 @ 0.00087314 = 11.171 BTC [-] {2}
10:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12210005 BTC [+]
10:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
10:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]
		~ 16 minutes ~
10:27	monkey	!last h am1
10:27	assbot	Last trade for AM1 on HAVELOCK was at 0.53580001 BTC [-]
		~ 24 minutes ~
10:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.00087407 = 5.6815 BTC [+]
10:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00087286 = 6.0227 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 20 minutes ~
11:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26982 @ 0.00087214 = 23.5321 BTC [-] {4}
11:25	Mats_cd03	goxbtc continues to sail into the ground
11:30	praeconium	Is it possible to pull out coins?
11:36	Mats_cd03	lolno
11:43	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 585 @ 0.00021584 = 0.1263 BTC [-] {4}
11:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 677 @ 0.00021523 = 0.1457 BTC [-] {2}
11:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7600 @ 0.00087215 = 6.6283 BTC [+]
11:58	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00087407 = 4.2829 BTC [+]
11:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.63932407 BTC to 1`709 shares, 95923 satoshi per share
12:01	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] [PAID] 1.02106640 BTC to 77`944 shares, 1310 satoshi per share
12:12	dexX7	http://www.similarweb.com/website/mpex.co#/#icbit.se,btclevels.com http://www.similarweb.com/website/bitfunder.com#/#havelockinvestments.com,cryptostocks.com
12:18	benkay	pretty lulzy
12:22	benkay	slow day, dexX7?
12:23	dexX7	hehe yea
12:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44700 @ 0.00087224 = 38.9891 BTC [-] {4}
12:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10000 @ 0.00022735 = 2.2735 BTC [+] {9}
12:33	benkay	(format "butts %s %s" "foo" \n)
12:33	benkay	oh excuse me that was meant for my repl
12:33	benkay	not caffinated yet
12:33	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 725 @ 0.00022749 = 0.1649 BTC [+]
		~ 16 minutes ~
12:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06899999 = 0.207 BTC [+]
12:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087182 = 9.4592 BTC [-] {2}
12:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]
12:56	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49100 @ 0.00087091 = 42.7617 BTC [-] {4}
13:03	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 25 @ 0.10771993 = 2.693 BTC [-] {5}
13:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 10 @ 0.11389999 = 1.139 BTC [+] {3}
13:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2278 @ 0.00087038 = 1.9827 BTC [-]
13:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.123 BTC [+]
13:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 690 @ 0.00043921 = 0.3031 BTC [-] {2}
13:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00087008 = 9.4404 BTC [-] {3}
13:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [7C] 72 @ 0.00492365 = 0.3545 BTC [-] {4}
13:15	francis_wolke	The designated occasion for clearing Babylonia's financial slate was the New Year festival, celebrated in the spring. Babylonian rulers oversaw the ritual "breaking of the tablets," that is, the debt records, restoring economic balance as part of the cyclical renewal of society along with the rest of nature. Hammurabi and his fellow rulers signaled
13:15	francis_wolke	these proclamations by raising a torch, probably symbolizing the sun-god of justice Shamash, whose principles where supposed to guide wise and fair rulers. Persons held as debt pledges were released to rejoin their families. Other debtors were restored cultivation rights to their customary lands, free of whatever mortgage liens had accumulated.
13:15	francis_wolke	Over the next several thousand years, this same list -- canceling the debts, destroying the records, reallocating the land -- was to become the standard list of demands of peasant revolutionaries everywhere. In Mesopotamia, rulers appear to have headed off the possibility of unrest by instituting such reforms themselves, as a grand gesture of cosmi
13:15	francis_wolke	c renewal, a recreation of the social universe -- in Babylonia, during the same ceremony in which the king reenacts his godMurduk's creation of the physical universe. The history of debt and sin was wiped out, and it was time to begin again. But it's also clear what they saw as the alternative: the world plunged into chaos, with farmers defecting t
13:15	francis_wolke	o swell the ranks of nomadic pastoralists, and ultimately, if the breakdown continued, returning to overrun the cities and destroy the existing economic order entirely.
13:15	francis_wolke	-- Debt: the First 5,000 Years, page 216
13:16	francis_wolke	Interesting quote. Apologies for the extra \n - I don't know how they got there between copying from emacs and pasting into the irc client.
13:17	Apocalyptic	next time you know just pastebin it
13:17	benkay	why buy debt when someone's going to come along and break your tablets shortly thereafter?
13:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]
13:18	benkay	halp i'm frying too much potato
13:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00087393 = 10.9241 BTC [+] {2}
13:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 8 @ 0.19376446 = 1.5501 BTC [+]
13:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4648 @ 0.00021526 = 1.0005 BTC [-] {6}
13:26	francis_wolke	benkay: Fiat - you'll have more to lend out shortly thereafter?
13:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
13:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.124 = 0.248 BTC [+]
13:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 158 @ 0.00083559 = 0.132 BTC [+]
13:40	francis_wolke	Is this a reasonable theory? If not - why? https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258
13:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10807 @ 0.00086971 = 9.399 BTC [-]
13:41	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3587 @ 0.00086947 = 3.1188 BTC [-]
13:43	Apocalyptic	"Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body" lol
13:44	francis_wolke	Apocalyptic: Why do you lol?
13:44	Apocalyptic	i wonder what advantage do you seen in the creator aligning with a government
13:45	Apocalyptic	will let mircea comment on that, i'm sure he will have interesting things to say
13:46	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579997 = 0.1032 BTC [+]
13:47	ThickAsThieves	the dude is nuts
13:48	francis_wolke	Apocalyptic: Personally, I'm digging life, and would like to continue it for as long as possible.
13:48	francis_wolke	Apocalyptic: Radical life extension is going to require some state support.
13:50	benkay	why?
13:50	benkay	more specifically, why will rle require state support?
13:51	benkay	also you're missing the part where the state isn't really its own agent but more accurately a tool of the ultra-capitalized who will be the main beneficiaries of RLE in any event.
13:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 156 @ 0.0028231 = 0.4404 BTC [-] {6}
13:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 4 @ 0.07501002 = 0.3 BTC [-]
13:52	benkay	buuuuut it's just vastly more likely that bitcoin will shatter all fiat states than support their continued reign.
13:52	benkay	in that frame, why would anyone smart enough to read the implications of a non-state ultimately fungible currency align themselves with a state that's doomed?
13:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00277726 = 1.3886 BTC [-] {13}
13:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [7C] 20 @ 0.00638999 = 0.1278 BTC [+] {2}
13:53	benkay	and RLE is a symptom of the too much money problem
13:53	pankkake	that thing is geopolitics for toddlers or something
13:54	benkay	"if the nsa cannot" oh my lols
13:54	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 250 @ 0.00275 = 0.6875 BTC [-] {3}
13:55	francis_wolke	benkay: Please, crucify me. I'm not going to get pissy or anything.
13:55	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 835 @ 0.00038327 = 0.32 BTC [-] {13}
13:56	benkay	mebbe later
13:56	benkay	dog ams need romp
13:56	benkay	also your feelings don't really factor into whether or not i take you to the woodshed
13:56	francis_wolke	Glad to hear it.
13:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 83 @ 0.003394 = 0.2817 BTC [-]
13:56	pankkake	it must be some sort of troll, where every sentence is wrong, or impossible, etc.
13:57	benkay	but hey you're a lisper so i likely won't get downright mean
13:57	benkay	;)
13:57	pankkake	"It may be within the realm of possibility that Israel controls Bitcoin" heavy sentence with no substance, "control" bitcoin what does it mean…
13:57	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3101 @ 0.00022579 = 0.7002 BTC [+] {6}
13:58	francis_wolke	pankkake: See the links on the word 'control' and 'bitcoin'
13:58	pankkake	"too fragmented to act as a cohesive whole" it doesn't have to
13:58	pankkake	"the center for cryptography / mathematics" there's no new crypto in bitcoin
13:58	francis_wolke	benkay: Also, I fail to see how bitcoin will 'shatter' any state. Millitary power is meaningful, no matter how clever the Bitcoin protocol.
13:58	pankkake	"the USG would kill it with fire" it can't
13:59	pankkake	inflation and war go hand in hand
14:02	francis_wolke	benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?
14:02	francis_wolke	benkay: As for why RLE requires state support, if anyone gets *anywhere* with RLE, spooks are going to show up on their doorstep. They may not be required for the actual innovation. The only question is - where do you want them to hail from?
14:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 8 @ 0.0257 = 0.2056 BTC [-]
14:05	francis_wolke	[Note: I appear to be unable to use this irc client. I held down backspace for 30 sec, couldn't navigate to any other text and revised my message. I post, and viola - my previous message is also posted! Apologies to anyone reading this diarrhea.]
14:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5000 @ 0.00023978 = 1.1989 BTC [+] {9}
14:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1625 @ 0.00023988 = 0.3898 BTC [+] {2}
14:07	jurov	spooks are going to show up on their doorstep... sry if i came late and don't understand but why?
14:07	ThickAsThieves	http://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-users-awaiting-funds-survey-reveals/
14:09	francis_wolke	jurov: Government is the formalization of power. Anyone doing anything interesting with radical life extension will have spooks on their doorstep momentarily. There are a number of powerful / rich people who don't want to die.
14:09	jurov	and you think they are dying (pun intended) to get registered with govt in any way?
14:11	francis_wolke	jurov: Who? The creators of btc?
14:12	jurov	no the billionaires who will undergo life extension
14:13	jurov	for example i can't imagine our resident billionaire, mircea_popescu to rely upon government protection
14:13	jurov	in any way or shape
14:13	francis_wolke	jurov: ... MP is a billionaire?
14:14	jurov	they called him one, cuz $20k for openbsd
14:14	jurov	totally logical.
14:15	francis_wolke	jurov: I mean, yeah - but do we have actual numbers?
14:15	jurov	what was the market valuation of s.mpoe, is any mpex expert around?
14:16	jurov	!t m s.mpoe
14:16	assbot	[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00086657 / 0.00087355 / 0.00087717 (956594 shares, 835.64 BTC), 7D: 0.00084891 / 0.00086471 / 0.00087781 (7711255 shares, 6,668.04 BTC), 30D: 0.00082189 / 0.00090381 / 0.00101414 (28027503 shares, 25,331.72 BTC)
14:17	jurov	;;calc 0.00087355*1e9
14:17	gribble	Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
14:18	jurov	it is 873550 bitcoins atm
14:19	jurov	vhich is not very far from beelion $ . but that's besiedes the poi
14:19	jurov	*point
14:19	francis_wolke	jurov: RLE is still a while off, and millitary power dosn't cease to exist b/c Bitcoin. I'm sure that neither Peter Theil, or MP have any particular love for their respective governments. But they're not stupid and recognize that if some elite is going to extend their lifespans, they may need protection.
14:20	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: (author of first link in your piece speaking) you're half right. the flaw is that you are only including 'documented' ('flag, anthem, navy') powers.
14:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00087103 = 13.5445 BTC [+] {2}
14:20	jurov	they don't need the protection. they just pwn the governemnt
14:20	francis_wolke	jurov: pwn the gov? Explain please.
14:21	asciilifeform	http://villageundertaker.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/att000022.jpg
14:21	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: I'm not aware of any others, but if you've got a reading list...
14:21	jurov	for example, general secretaries of politburo
14:21	jurov	were most ofted neposed only by death
14:21	jurov	*deposed
14:22	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: Also, thanks for keeping up the blog. I would have not learned about the LispM otherwise.
14:22	asciilifeform	we live in the great age of muppeteering.
14:22	jurov	and if they won't die for 100 years?
14:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1300 @ 0.00023989 = 0.3119 BTC [+] {3}
14:23	jurov	many of people with extended lifespans will seek such a position, official or unofficial
14:23	francis_wolke	jurov: Well, yeah. And if you can't beat em...
14:24	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: if you ruled over a 'center of cryptography and mathematics,' would you wish this to be known to your enemies?
14:25	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: No.
14:26	Duffer1	where did https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258 come from?
14:27	francis_wolke	Duffer1: I transcribed it from a piece of paper I found lying on the ground.
14:27	Duffer1	fascinating
14:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [COG] 2 @ 0.119799 = 0.2396 BTC [+]
14:30	jurov	davout, did you forget the X.EUR again?
14:31	Duffer1	i can't speak about the historical finance part, but pretty much everything written about bitcoin itself is flat out wrong
14:31	francis_wolke	Duffer1: Please elaborate.
14:31	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: and so, when a government pumps out propaganda by the truckload re: how it maintains a stable of uniquely-capable cryptologic janissaries, what can you conclude?
14:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 482 @ 0.0002399 = 0.1156 BTC [+]
14:32	jurov	that mp is the governemnt?
14:32	jurov	he maintains some such stables
14:33	Duffer1	start with the first assertion "..a handful of parties control bitcoin.." miners control bitcoin, anyone can edit/audit the code, but it's miners that vote with their hashpower to run updated versions or not
14:33	asciilifeform	Duffer1: the assumption that we know anything whatsoever regarding the distribution of the bulk of mining power is mistaken.
14:34	MisterE	handful is misleading
14:34	asciilifeform	i can make 1TH look like 1,000 1GH lamers. and so can you, and so can any spammer.
		↖
14:34	MisterE	hmm
14:34	Duffer1	a fair point
14:34	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.074 = 0.148 BTC [+]
14:35	MisterE	but why? I assume most miners no reason to deceive?
14:35	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083559 = 0.2507 BTC [+]
14:35	asciilifeform	MisterE: if you were the hypothetical king of the miners, you have every incentive to engineer a ruse like this.
14:36	MisterE	hmm yea if I had the most hashpower
14:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] 32 @ 0.0055 = 0.176 BTC
14:38	Duffer1	the article attributes control of bitcoin to those hoarding the most, i was pointing out the power is in the hash
14:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1360 @ 0.00086947 = 1.1825 BTC [-]
14:39	asciilifeform	describing 'power' as a scalar is naive. there is power to destroy, for example, which is arguably held by whoever controls the satoshi mega-hoard
14:39	asciilifeform	and then there's the power to silently '51%'
14:39	asciilifeform	which may or may not be held by anyone
14:40	asciilifeform	and then there's the power to crunch the blockchain and squeeze out whatever truth is contained therein
14:40	asciilifeform	all three of these are quite distinct things.
14:40	Duffer1	but what controls bitcoin?
14:40	asciilifeform	once again 'controls' is a meaningless question
14:41	asciilifeform	what controls your index finger?
14:41	Apocalyptic	the associated muscles
14:43	Duffer1	there are innumerable external factors, but for purposes dissecting the statement: "Given that a handful of parties control Bitcoin..." is the answer not miners? (or the mining network)
14:43	asciilifeform	i.e. the six or so global telecoms with de-facto control over the net could switch it off like a lamp. (provisions against this scenario are quite feasible, but no one has cared to consider much less make them.)
14:43	asciilifeform	everyone seems intent on inventing the parachute after being thrown, rather than before.
14:45	asciilifeform	a more interesting question for 'political' aficionados could be 'who has the power to kill while making the death look like bad luck?' and 'who can silently bend the system towards some desired end'
14:45	asciilifeform	'who controls', on the other hand, is uselessly vague.
14:46	asciilifeform	that is, do the fellows with the 'nuclear briefcases' - 'control bitcoin'? arguably they do...
14:46	asciilifeform	in the same sense that they 'control' the weather.
14:47	asciilifeform	you 'control' your car. but it will never fly, or sail.
14:49	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: I have not drawn my conclusions r.e. the janissaries based on propaganda. At least, I'm not aware of doing so.
14:50	mircea_popescu	o look, new names.
14:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+] {2}
14:52	mircea_popescu	dexX7 not sure how accurate that sort of stuff is.
14:53	mircea_popescu	2.47% of total Mpex.co traffic in last 3 months is social < that part was lulzy.
14:54	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: possibly the only organized undertaking modern rulers are any good at is: presenting elaborately misleading pictures of their capabilities.
14:54	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke you realise the entire breaking tablets thing is strictly a function of man's early monkey-like state and has no practical importance today. do you ?
14:55	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: I don't.
14:55	mircea_popescu	yes well. back in those days a one year interval was far outside the mental abilities of even "specialist" "bankers" to plan.
14:55	mircea_popescu	society today relies on much more intelligent people.
14:56	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the basic point that stands, supposing there is one, is that caging monkeys has a certain cost
14:56	mircea_popescu	the fact that the bulk of the live humans are about as stupid today as in 3000 bc has little bearing
14:56	asciilifeform	so the ROI on containing them isn't always positive.
14:56	mircea_popescu	they still wish and expect tvs running water and generally to be able to play around on the intenret.
14:56	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: If the USD went to 0 btc - it would be a 'breaking of the tablets', regardless.
14:56	mircea_popescu	this requires an economy built by people who see more than a year into the future.
14:56	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke it would be the breaking of SOME tablets
14:56	mircea_popescu	ie, the stupid ones.
14:56	mircea_popescu	this happens all the time. there are 1000s of bankruptcy courts all over the world hearing millions of cases as we speak.
14:56	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Exactly. The point is that the middle and lower class keep working.
14:57	mircea_popescu	sure.
14:57	mircea_popescu	but this is in no way time based, and in no way a festival.
14:57	francis_wolke	Time-based? Festival?
14:58	mircea_popescu	yes. our discussion started with me asking if you realise the thing you quote has more to do with the mokeys involved than with anything of import today.
14:59	asciilifeform	modern monkey-handlers have not entirely abandoned the idea of 'populistic' gifts to their charges via mass expropriation (whether via debt forgiveness, abruptly nationalized industry, or whichever other tricks)
14:59	francis_wolke	exactly.
15:00	francis_wolke	And how do you get rid of $18 trillion in debt? And school loans. And housing loans. etc.
15:00	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i suspect the problem is more like this : if i give you a debt package, there will be a cost to evaluate its value. if that cost likely exceeds its value, you may opt to just throw the whole thing away.
15:00	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke you don't. ideally, you DONT MAKE THEM
15:01	mircea_popescu	not everybody needs a college degree, even if they're white, and even if their parents have "expectations".
15:01	asciilifeform	modern 'debt politics' is simply a maintenance of the historic norm (most humans being formally enslaved to someone or other) by other means.
15:01	francis_wolke	Agreed.
15:01	asciilifeform	'kinder/gentler/paper' but otherwise effective.
15:01	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: have you read this: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm
15:01	mircea_popescu	or moreover it's simply THE maintenance of the historic norm, independent of human agency, which is being mentally digested in ways consecvent with the current social text.
15:02	asciilifeform	and there is never any question of turning them loose (that'd be the end of organized civilization as a concept) but change of masters.
15:02	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there's never any question of turning them loose because they just won't leave.
15:02	mircea_popescu	turning "them" lose is like turning the cockroaches in your kitchen "loose", admitting you live in ny.
15:02	asciilifeform	correct. it's rather like the 'animal activist' folks turning the mice loose.
15:02	mircea_popescu	they're loose already.
15:05	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]
15:05	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: A while back you mentioned that the rulers of today are only good at misleading the public. I agree that the *visible* rulers are good at this - but can't imagine someone like Ben Bernanke caring so little about his future that the stupid are allowed to rule.
15:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 179 @ 0.00293297 = 0.525 BTC [+]
15:06	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: the visible muppets aren't good at much of anything
15:06	mircea_popescu	so why does what you can and can't imagine matter ?
15:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 20 @ 0.19376446 = 3.8753 BTC [+]
15:07	Duffer1	I'd say given the state of affairs worldwide the non-visible muppets aren't good at much either
15:08	mircea_popescu	Duffer1 you know you'll have to first define some criteria.
15:08	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Because my imagination has some bearing on reality - however tenuous.
15:08	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke can you show this to me ?
15:08	asciilifeform	Duffer1: this conclusion does not necessarily follow.
15:09	Duffer1	well what does it matter visible or nonvisible if the net result is crap all around for everyone?
15:09	mircea_popescu	again, crap by which stick ?
15:09	asciilifeform	re: imagination: gedankenexperiment time. let's imagine that i imagine there's a cleaner way to solve sha(Y)=X than brute force. i pursue this line of inquiry, and the imagined turns into the actual.
15:10	asciilifeform	in this scenario, imagination can indeed have an impact on reality...
15:10	Duffer1	worldwide asinine political regimes, religions, violence, ignorance
15:10	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform on your circumstance, yes. on the reality of the matter, none.
15:11	francis_wolke	MP: I have met some people in so-called 1%. I know what they're like, and what their parents are like. Many of them don't think - but some do. Some actually care that civilization will be around for their decedents to enjoy.
15:11	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke you know this hardly is showing, do you ?
15:11	Duffer1	my experience is obviously subject (as was my initial statement) but i don't see anyone trying to reverse these trends
15:11	francis_wolke	Though I have no experience with these matters, I can 'imagine' that they make certain sorts of donations etc.
15:11	francis_wolke	Or say that I didn't actually know any of these people.
15:12	asciilifeform	Duffer1: one can easily picture a set of aims that these things, which you aren't particularly fond of, help to advance.
15:12	asciilifeform	'it's not a bug, it's a feature' (TM)
15:12	Duffer1	hehe
15:12	mircea_popescu	listen, while i agree with the reverse (ie, indeed reality iwll have some bearing, no matter how tenuous, on your imagination), the reverse is completely baseless.
15:12	Namworld	The requirements to be included in the 1% are low...
15:12	francis_wolke	Okay, cool.
15:13	asciilifeform	in what magic book is it written that '1%' (of what...) is a useful proxy for 'those who rule'
15:13	mircea_popescu	and this is so for very good reasons long explored in the history of thought.
15:13	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform fun anecdote : romania's ruler for the 90s decade owner... a house.
15:13	asciilifeform	stalin. owned: a coat.
15:13	mircea_popescu	"sarac dar cinstit" = poor but honest, ion iliescu, the ex dictator-s golden boy.
15:14	mircea_popescu	indeed, same model.
15:14	asciilifeform	this goes back to the 'what is control' question from earlier, as well as MP's recent discussion of 'owning a cow'
15:15	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform incidentally : http://trilema.com/2014/democracy-and-finance-dont-mix-the-math-involved/#comment-98112 we're having a little dispute there.
15:15	Duffer1	i missed that one
15:15	asciilifeform	if the only things you can 'own' are those that fit in your coffin, then: stalin owned only an overcoat. and a few coin in his pocket.
15:15	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: Control, with respect to bitcoin, would be whoever has their hand on the 'kill switch'. Assuming that the guy with a nuke is stable.
15:16	mircea_popescu	there is no nor can there ever be such a "kill switch".
15:16	mircea_popescu	*that* is a figment of your imagination, like the tits on the goddesses.
15:16	asciilifeform	there is a 'fuck things up quite a bit' switch, possibly. (as described in my old piece)
15:16	mircea_popescu	surely.
15:16	asciilifeform	whether this amounts to 'kill' is debatable.
15:16	mircea_popescu	i do that to women occasionally. they generally love it.
15:16	asciilifeform	and depends as much on herd psychology as anything else.
15:17	asciilifeform	it's rather like, say you were permitted to squeeze off one shot from a small arm at your enemy. does this amount to 'kill switch'? what if you miss? what if he's got a tough hide.
15:18	francis_wolke	Agreed.
15:18	francis_wolke	Control, with respect to society, is an emergent phenomenon. That being said, the Manhattan Project happened.
15:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.077 = 0.231 BTC [+]
15:19	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke http://t.co/pwAThtM4MP << you know that's broken right ?
15:19	francis_wolke	In secret no less.
15:19	asciilifeform	i tend to agree with MP and others who conclude that we no longer live in a world where manhattan projects happen.
15:20	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: It's not broken for me. http://francis-.github.io/
15:20	asciilifeform	the necessary human material is no longer readily available. just as the metals with which the SR-71 was built no longer are.
15:20	mircea_popescu	http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://francis-.github.io/
15:20	mircea_popescu	stubborn cat is he.
15:20	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: If you have a reading list to support this claim, I'd be happy to read it.
15:20	asciilifeform	it loads from here
15:21	asciilifeform	mebbe it's cached at ft. meade.
15:21	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Must have been cached. (Though you already knew that) my bad.
15:21	mircea_popescu	lol interesting
15:21	pankkake	francis-.github.io resolves, but firefox does not like the name
15:21	mircea_popescu	im pretty sure -. is nonrfc
15:21	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: which claim ?
15:21	francis_wolke	There is nothing interesting there anyway. Just an 'about' with one sentence.
15:22	pankkake	nor does lynx
15:22	pankkake	but chrome does
15:22	mircea_popescu	see, this is why we need standards.
15:22	mircea_popescu	so we can all agree on things.
15:22	mircea_popescu	like for instance now, we can agree that wtf.
15:22	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: That we're living in a world without Manhattan projects.
15:23	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: Actually, I'd be interested in a reading list irrespective of that.
15:23	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform now you're screwed, it looks like you'll have to write that article
15:23	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Same goes for you.
15:23	mircea_popescu	o no, i'm eight million words ahead in this game.
15:23	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: i doubt that i, personally, could prove this claim to your satisfaction.
15:23	asciilifeform	it is merely a strong conjecture.
15:24	asciilifeform	proving non-existence is generally non-trivial.
15:24	asciilifeform	except in the purely mathematical scenarios.
15:24	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke let's consider a simpler alternative. obama fdr and lincoln all broke the law, grossly. in all cases the courts duly signed off on this.
15:24	mircea_popescu	in the first case, the guy was able to cause civil war.
15:25	mircea_popescu	in the second case, the guy was able to cause massive resource redistribution
15:25	mircea_popescu	in the third case, the guy was able to not cause anything outside of measurement error.
15:25	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: you want a good read: "The Art of Not Being Governed." (James C. Scott)
15:26	asciilifeform	(book-length, high-quality treatise on the exact recipes whereby humans are corralled and milked)
15:26	mircea_popescu	the reason of course being ideological convergence, which happens because of the law of large numbers :
15:26	mircea_popescu	when you have simple ideologies, you have much easier coherence. thus activity with greatly leveraged effect.
15:27	mircea_popescu	as things progress the complexity of ideology grows and so grows the number of boxes in which we put balls. soon enough you have no box with over X balls.
15:27	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: Thanks.
15:28	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: as for the absence of 'modern manhattan project', let's attack that one head-on
15:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [+]
15:28	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: I fail to see how this leads to a USG without Manhattan projects.
15:28	asciilifeform	for instance, you appear to consider seriously the possibility of 'radical life extension tech' being presently in covert use.
15:28	asciilifeform	do i understand correctly?
15:28	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: No
15:29	mircea_popescu	maybe we don't mean the same thing by manhattan projects. what's your definition ?
15:29	francis_wolke	err. sorry
15:29	francis_wolke	asciilifeform:no
15:29	francis_wolke	A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG.
15:29	mircea_popescu	right.
15:29	mircea_popescu	the limits on the largeness of scale and importance are placed by said law of large numbers.
15:30	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: further reading. GRU report based on U.S. silver purchases in 1941-43.
15:30	mircea_popescu	when the options are a1, a2, you will out of a population of 100mn find 50 people able to keep secret X
15:30	asciilifeform	(manhattan project was no secret to GRU.)
15:30	mircea_popescu	when the options are a1, an you will not find out of a population of k, k <n, a single person capable of keeping secret X.
15:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12489 BTC [+]
15:31	mircea_popescu	which is why the fsb does not have documents leaked, in spite of it sucking,
15:31	mircea_popescu	whereas the nsa is leaked yearly, in spite of supposedly being better.
15:31	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Okay?
15:31	mircea_popescu	russia is less "civilised" which means more convergent ideologically.
15:32	asciilifeform	it is very easy to draw mistaken conclusions from the fact that the 'man on the street' was entirely unaware of manhattan p. (or 'operation gladio', for a more recent example)
15:32	asciilifeform	but it does not follow that either was a 'perfect secret'
15:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i thought we were strictly discussing secrets as "man in the street" affairs.
15:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]
15:33	asciilifeform	keeping a secret from the man on the street is trivial. often, you could run his nose in it and it will stay 'secret.'
15:33	mircea_popescu	well not THAT man in the street. not the mobile vulgus, the beasts of the field, strictly interesting for their flesh, the cockroaches in your fabled ny apartment.
15:33	asciilifeform	betcha if you plucked the quasi-mythical Pill Against RSA from its Indiana Jones subterranean vault, perhaps six people alive would understand what they are looking at were it shown to them.
		↖
15:33	mircea_popescu	the actual man, ie, the middle class man.
15:34	mircea_popescu	a "reasonably intelligent observer"
15:34	asciilifeform	phun phact: many of the still-officially-secret docs from manhattan proj. are available in dead-tree print - in russian, naturally.
15:34	asciilifeform	any moron can waltz into a russian academic bookstore and buy all he can eat.
15:35	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and legal to import into the us in your luggage, but then again illegal to export
15:35	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: speaking of which, are PGP tattoos still in fashion, i wonder.
15:35	asciilifeform	'i am a controlled munition.'
15:36	mircea_popescu	lol
15:36	mircea_popescu	they never got far, i imagine cause they're so hard to make and unwieldy to weart
15:36	asciilifeform	if i recall it was the perl version
15:37	asciilifeform	<100 chars. or so.
15:37	mircea_popescu	your average tattoo "artist" doesn't do so well with letters.
15:37	asciilifeform	haha that'd be hilarious in the pgp case
15:37	asciilifeform	idiot hipster asks for pgp tattoo, gets rot-13.
15:38	mircea_popescu	lol
15:38	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: To clarify, I'd imagine that anyone with enough money / power would be interested in the possiblity of radical life extension (Peter Theil, MP, Satoshi) if / when the tech is there. As such, if I were smart enough to create btc, I'd certainly team up with the most powerful country, so that if the tech does get 'there', I'll be ready.
15:39	mircea_popescu	why do you think so ? i wouldn't personally be interested in such.
15:39	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: phun phact. my first paying job was 'activate somatic telomerase.' project croaked from utter lack of the necessary depth of understanding.
15:40	francis_wolke	Phun phact indeed.
15:40	asciilifeform	(and, not simply mine)
15:40	mircea_popescu	i mean marginally, like i'm interested in whatever new chick takes her top off, but otherwise...
15:40	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: You wouldn't opt for another 400 years?
15:40	mircea_popescu	that aside, i do believe we'll probably be the first immortal generation,
15:40	mircea_popescu	and probably rue the day.
15:41	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke doing what ?
15:41	pankkake	doing girls 300 years younger
15:41	mircea_popescu	srsly now.
15:41	francis_wolke	ha.
15:41	mircea_popescu	i first retired aged 24. i came back because i got bored out of my mind.
15:41	mircea_popescu	i got lucky, cause btc came around, but how many cycles do you think i can take ?
15:42	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: I don't know you well enough to say.
15:42	mircea_popescu	well nobody does, but still.
15:42	asciilifeform	immortality is a tricky beast - biology aside! the life expectancy of a daily wash. d.c. beltway driver is maybe 200 years.
15:42	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform how'd you figure that ?!
15:43	asciilifeform	accident stats. a debatable figure, could be off by as much as 10x.
15:43	mircea_popescu	lmao ok
15:43	asciilifeform	(naturally, gedankenexperiment assumes an eternal and unchanging beltway, etc.)
15:43	mircea_popescu	right.
15:44	benkay	http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=26001ed
15:44	mircea_popescu	beltway, bellyway, errything.
15:44	ozbot	dishes
15:44	asciilifeform	could just as well calculate the life of a somali pirate, or oil driller.
15:44	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what's the lifespan of a redditard ?
15:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [+]
15:44	benkay	mircea_popescu: on the subject of the feed you've been yammering at me about
15:44	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: depends! is he in an oubliette where he belongs?
15:45	asciilifeform	in Butugichag?
15:45	mircea_popescu	benkay tiikoni and tis. you tease you. what happened to cunny and tits ?
15:45	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform in his mom's basementichag
15:45	francis_wolke	Still not sure why you both think we live in a world devoid of Manhattan projects btw.
15:45	asciilifeform	(lifespan of a strong man in B. was reportedly six months.)
15:45	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke but you never engaged my argument at all.
15:46	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform amusingly, the romans used the salt mines (in transylvania) to much the same effect.
15:46	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: You simply don't have to tell all that many people when you're creating a new currency - and even if you do, who is going to listen?
15:46	mircea_popescu	"go fight in the arena for glory or rot in turda salt mine boi"
15:46	asciilifeform	'glorious secret undertakings like Manhattan p. carry on' is quite similar of a hypothesis to 'god exists'
15:46	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke but a new currency isn't a manhattan project.
15:47	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: Ah - but that's what I'm getting at - I think it was.
15:47	mircea_popescu	creating a new currency is like fucking an altar boy. nobody needs to know anything.
15:47	benkay	francis_wolke: have you read the source?
15:47	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: you believe that it was? or believe that it must have been.
15:47	mircea_popescu	a manhattan project is like escavating a tunnel under the nunnery.
15:47	asciilifeform	which is it
15:47	mircea_popescu	plenty of people need to know
15:47	francis_wolke	benkay: I have not.
15:47	benkay	sophisticated engineering project it ain't
15:47	mircea_popescu	^
15:47	asciilifeform	i'm perfectly willing to listen to evidence that 'was'. but 'must have been' is absurd.
15:48	benkay	not broken, for sure
15:48	benkay	crypto minds deployed against it, for sure
15:48	benkay	rigorous engineering?
15:48	benkay	notrly.
15:48	mircea_popescu	if every great painting in history is a manhattan project then venice and the low countries own the us in manhattanness, srsly.
15:48	mircea_popescu	who knew.
15:48	benkay	venice et al pwn the us anyways
15:48	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: I don't believe anything. I'm asking here because you all know more than I.
15:48	mircea_popescu	benkay diff discussion :)
15:48	pankkake	bitcoin, the first released version, was certainly written by one lone guy
15:49	mircea_popescu	<francis_wolke> A large scale, important project, developed in secret by USG. << how does bitcoin meet any of your criteria ?
15:49	asciilifeform	francis_wolke: suggested exercise: invent something fundamental.
15:49	mircea_popescu	it's neither large scale nor important in that context.
15:49	asciilifeform	then you will know what it feels like to be a perfect 'conspiracy' of one man.
15:49	mircea_popescu	pankkake with a tenuous grasp of c practice.
15:49	asciilifeform	you'll have thoughts like 'wtf. how is it that only one man can know something'
15:49	dexX7	mircea_popesu: yea, i guess it's not very accurate, but interesting to see an estimate
15:50	francis_wolke	asciilifeform: Fair enough.
15:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.53838261 BTC [+]
15:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i loved dame dench. "Be careful with my name, or you may wear it out!"
15:52	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: See my gist. However, I think that it's clear I need to read the Bitcoin sources and more history. The 'reasoning' in said gist may not correspond to reality.
15:53	mircea_popescu	in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself, in which vaguely one can recognise the marks left by the spit of whoever long ago, in the manner new spits mix today because of the presence of that old saliva of yore,
15:53	mircea_popescu	the notion of fresh produce is indeed imponderable.
15:53	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke actual link ?
15:53	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: https://gist.github.com/francis-/34ac1e35e1de283da258
15:53	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 185 @ 0.002941 = 0.5441 BTC [+]
15:54	mircea_popescu	fucking teleomeres.
15:54	mjr_	whats up all
15:54	mircea_popescu	half the time when i select something a final char is omitted
15:54	benkay	yo mjr_ what's up
15:54	mircea_popescu	" Anyone intelligent enough to create Bitcoin will have aligned themselves with some sort of governmental body." << this is a weak assumption.
15:55	mjr_	very weak mircea_popescu
15:55	benkay	mircea_popescu: i pointed this out already.
15:55	mjr_	benkay: whats up
15:55	mircea_popescu	ello mjr_
15:55	mjr_	i just got the coolest new domain
15:55	mjr_	i'm quite proud of it
15:55	mircea_popescu	benkay so that makes 2 :)
15:55	benkay	hackin migration scripts, watching the babe do dishes in heels
15:55	mjr_	longtermcryptomanagement.com, longtermcryptomgmt.com and ltcmgmt.com
15:55	mircea_popescu	"A group of people associated with multiple world powers." << no. actual internationalisation happened in 2013, was announced on trilema.
15:55	benkay	well, sweeping now but general domesticity. what's the domain?
15:55	mjr_	restarting a brand new LTCM
15:56	benkay	litecoin management lol mjr_
15:56	mjr_	no no
15:56	mjr_	long term crypto
15:56	benkay	that's what i read
15:56	benkay	nope
15:56	benkay	you're in the litecoin biz nao
15:56	mircea_popescu	mjr_ they're not that great.
15:56	mjr_	hahaha
15:56	mjr_	its mostly a joke mircea_popescu
15:56	mircea_popescu	o o
15:56	benkay	i think the ltcmgmt is great!
15:56	mjr_	anyone who knows LTCM will find it prety funny
15:56	mircea_popescu	"and Israel" << wtf ?! how do you reason francis_wolke ?
15:57	mircea_popescu	"and the remaining states are all allies of the US" < ahaha what!
15:57	mjr_	but i plan on using it as a private consulting company for btcshares.com
15:57	mjr_	did you guys see that guy from btc shop?
15:57	mircea_popescu	i guess required reading http://trilema.com/2014/most-wrong-and-absolutely-wrongest/
15:57	benkay	if you'd read the gist it woulda saved so much time mircea_popescu
15:57	benkay	you could've jumped straight to the mockery!
15:57	mjr_	went public on the pink sheets...as i was recommending bitcoin companies do a year ago
15:57	mjr_	^^
15:58	mircea_popescu	"it's disposal" that's not how you spell the possesive.
15:58	mircea_popescu	"neigh-impossible" << what is this, cockney ?!
15:58	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform who's this guy ?
15:58	mjr_	hahaha
15:59	mjr_	i've missed chatting with you guys
15:59	mircea_popescu	"Even if the initial miners in the "Satoshi Gang" were not initially part of the USG - they would be hunted down and forced to turn over their Bitcoin at gunpoint." oh for the love of christ.
15:59	mjr_	do you have the link handy for the romania trip?
15:59	mircea_popescu	mjr_ the conference you mea n?
15:59	mjr_	yes
15:59	benkay	mjr_: pm
15:59	mjr_	i am starting to try and make plans
15:59	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/the-conference-second-edition/
15:59	ozbot	The conference, second edition pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
16:00	mjr_	thanks so much
16:00	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke your git is nonsense.
16:00	mircea_popescu	and somewhat related :
16:00	mircea_popescu	Dolchstoßlegende is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals" (German: Novemberverbrecher).
16:01	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: I read the logs. My wifi died.
16:01	mircea_popescu	now, can we transpose the manhattan argument in terms of novemberverbrecher argument ?
16:01	mircea_popescu	ie, could we say the same things we say of our current fashion (ie, large scale tech project) about yesteryear's fashion ?
16:01	mircea_popescu	(ie, large scale political project)
16:02	francis_wolke	I'm not following.
16:02	mircea_popescu	the only difference being that in the 2000s humanity is fed by technology, whereas in 1900 it was fed by politics, which meant, of course, deploying the force of arms to acquire wealth.
16:03	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: who's this guy << no idea. seems to read my site at least occasionally.
16:03	mircea_popescu	francis_wolke you'll ahve to put that in the form of a question.
16:03	francis_wolke	mircea_popescu: One sec, reading your blogpost.
16:03	mircea_popescu	no rush really, #bitcoin-assets is eternal
16:04	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform keeps giving us these immortality pills, we'll be here forever.
16:06	ThickAsThieves	someone likes the BitBet layout: https://fairlay.com/
16:06	mircea_popescu	ahahaha fair lay!
16:06	mircea_popescu	speaking of lays : benkay take the girls pic, post it, have her come by i'll give her a bitcoin so she can build her independent wealth.
16:06	mircea_popescu	(in heels, doing housework, obviously)
16:07	benkay	that was her!
16:07	benkay	she's already on payroll over here.
16:08	benkay	although if you foot the bill for travel to romania you can have a go at talking her into your dungeon.
16:08	pankkake	https://fairlay.com/bet/registered/new/ethereum-talk-10-000-views-on-youtube/ how can this be approved :/
16:08	ozbot	Bet on: Ethereum talk > 10.000 views on YouTube
16:08	pankkake	fake views are so cheap
16:09	mircea_popescu	benkay i normally talk girls out of it not into it.
16:09	mircea_popescu	and what "that" ?
16:09	mircea_popescu	pankkake it's a fair lay lmao
16:09	benkay	the tikooni
16:10	mjr_	mircea_popescu:
16:10	mjr_	it is prevailing market rates of 1760?
16:10	mircea_popescu	o srsly ? /me actually clicks the link then
16:10	mjr_	has that been edited? i seem to remember 10 bitcoin price, not sure if i am remembering wrong
16:10	benkay	psh
16:11	mircea_popescu	mjr_ sorry ?
16:11	mircea_popescu	benkay you know i have the exact bowl ?
16:11	mircea_popescu	fucking chinese.
16:12	benkay	mircea_popescu: that's a strainer.
16:12	mircea_popescu	i see no holes ?!
16:12	mjr_	mircea_popescu: i thought the fee was 10 bitcoins for VIP, not that I am complaining, I just haven't looked in a while
16:12	mjr_	and i was under that impression
16:13	mircea_popescu	nah it always was X at time of payment,
16:13	benkay	it's a low-rez jpeg and they're small!
16:13	mjr_	ah cool
16:13	mircea_popescu	happened to be 10 btc at that time
16:13	mircea_popescu	wow. ok nm then!
16:13	mjr_	i am planning on going, and will get the payment in b4 the ides of march
16:13	mjr_	have to check my schedule real quick but it should be fine
16:14	mircea_popescu	i was going to go "oh, the blessings of romanian living, i just drained a bottle of tuica out of my barrel in the cellar now i have nicely cold tuica", but i guess i should pass.
16:16	benkay	not moving to argentina, i gather.
16:16	mircea_popescu	who knows these things.
16:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform let me ask you this : are you gathering lots of information about the early days of bitcoin by extensively watching the altcoin chain, tracking txns etc ?
		↖
16:17	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: on and off.
16:17	mircea_popescu	gedankenexperiment : you are the usg.
16:17	asciilifeform	not terribly actively in recent times, got, well, other things on me plate.
16:17	mircea_popescu	exactly.
16:19	mircea_popescu	could you have been a one man conspiracy to take it all over ? certainly. did you ? no. why not ? well...because of soft constraints.
16:19	mircea_popescu	this is what they are, this is how they work.
16:20	asciilifeform	everyone likes to imagine that there lives a hero.
16:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25888 @ 0.00087307 = 22.602 BTC [+] {5}
16:20	mircea_popescu	sure. and i see no problem with that, as you know, conversation.
16:20	mircea_popescu	reality however...
16:21	mircea_popescu	you gotta actually do it for it to be done. coulding have done it ain't military grade.
16:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21612 @ 0.00087425 = 18.8943 BTC [+] {4}
16:22	mircea_popescu	epic shit this, i've already derived more value from it than doge ever was worth.
16:24	mircea_popescu	benkay anyway, nice girl, happy times!
16:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.12999999 BTC [+]
16:26	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 111 @ 0.002941 = 0.3265 BTC [-]
16:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.1275 BTC [-]
16:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.07366666 = 0.221 BTC [-] {2}
16:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.124 = 0.372 BTC [-] {2}
16:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
16:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
16:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06899999 = 0.276 BTC [+]
16:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00294498 = 0.106 BTC [+]
16:33	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]
16:34	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
16:39	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8228 @ 0.0008746 = 7.1962 BTC [+] {2}
16:42	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.124 BTC [-]
16:43	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
16:48	benkay	mmm yes.
16:48	benkay	happy times.
16:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4677 @ 0.00087501 = 4.0924 BTC [+]
16:56	deanclkclk	anyone around?
16:56	deanclkclk	are there any alternatives to okpay which accepts fiat on behalf of exchanges?
16:56	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8064 @ 0.00087015 = 7.0169 BTC [-]
16:57	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk not really.
16:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2886 @ 0.00086943 = 2.5092 BTC [-]
16:58	mircea_popescu	exchanges currently seem to have a lot of problems, but if you trust any one you are best served by asking them what they can process
16:59	deanclkclk	thing is..I'm creating an exchange i'm kinda limited to okpay to do this
17:00	Duffer1	;;gpg info deanclkclk
17:00	gribble	No such user registered.
17:01	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk perhaps you've not thought this though that much.
17:01	deanclkclk	what do you mean?
17:01	deanclkclk	especially when you get an account..you also get a bank account
17:01	deanclkclk	well someone else on my team is looking into it but, it something that's been nagging my conscious
17:02	deanclkclk	conscience *
17:02	Duffer1	btc/usd exchange?
17:03	deanclkclk	yes Duffer1
17:03	deanclkclk	and btc/eur
17:03	deanclkclk	ltc also alsong with btc/ltc
17:04	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk i guess as mpoe-pr would say, see here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124441.0
17:04	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12936 @ 0.00086847 = 11.2345 BTC [-] {3}
17:10	deanclkclk	thx for that mircea_popescu
17:10	mircea_popescu	people with millions of dollars in backing failed at what you propose.
17:10	deanclkclk	but, what's WOT by the way?
17:11	mircea_popescu	it's not something to be started to fill an idle hour in the afternoon, like wittling.
17:11	deanclkclk	I know mircea_popescu
17:11	mircea_popescu	http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php this thing
17:11	Duffer1	Web Of Trust
17:11	deanclkclk	I have a value added propition mircea_popescu nad what I'm bring is like high frequency trading
17:12	deanclkclk	buyer wants more ..seller wants less...the trading will be automated where we try to get the best price for both buyer and seller
17:12	deanclkclk	understand?
17:12	deanclkclk	and in some cases..they can get more dollars ..as in the case of the trader and more btc in the case of the buyer
17:13	benkay	nope. do not understand. i must be idiots.
17:13	mircea_popescu	do you by any chance misrepresent "hft" to mean "a simulacra of amazon's autobid function" ?
17:13	Duffer1	you propose to allow buy/sell a price different than quoted?
17:14	deanclkclk	the buyer puts his max bid and the seller puts there minium ask price
17:14	deanclkclk	the algorithm goes through the list and find the best price for both buyer and seller Duffer1
17:14	benkay	YOU GUYS
17:14	benkay	HE'S INVENTED THE ORDER BOOK
17:14	Duffer1	how is that different than a regular order book
17:14	deanclkclk	so the seller might get more fiat and the buyer might get more btc
17:15	mircea_popescu	it presumably doesn't display actual values.
17:15	deanclkclk	it does
17:15	deanclkclk	it will show what actually traded
17:15	Duffer1	dark pool, but not dark
17:15	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk you may not like to hear this, but nevertheless it's a fact : you're really not able to do this. for your own sake do it for something light, like a play crypto.
17:15	mircea_popescu	do doge/alt/ltc/we.
17:15	deanclkclk	why?
17:15	mircea_popescu	because you're too stupid.
17:15	deanclkclk	why do you suggest that?
17:15	deanclkclk	why am I stupid?
17:16	mircea_popescu	well there are many fundamental points you're unable to consider.
17:16	deanclkclk	like what?
17:16	Duffer1	when you lose everyone's money for them it will hurt more than when you lose everyone's memecoin
17:16	deanclkclk	what's the main one?
17:16	mircea_popescu	i would imagine it's a combination of youth and whatever else.
17:16	deanclkclk	how am I loosing people's money when I said ..the objective is for folks to get more
17:17	benkay	well it's a zero sum game, homie
17:17	deanclkclk	a trade...we find the lease expensive ask and the highest bid and trade
17:17	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899999 = 0.345 BTC [+]
17:17	deanclkclk	are u that fucking stupid?
17:17	benkay	so this is not an open problem
17:17	Duffer1	you clearly don't understand enough of what's involved to be put yourself in a position of responsibility for other's money
17:17	benkay	https://openex.pw/
17:17	Duffer1	other's fortunes
17:18	deanclkclk	as oppose just stating random things..state in what instance I'm a "too fucking stupid"
17:18	deanclkclk	what area?
17:18	Duffer1	ok what's your area of expertise?
17:18	benkay	deanclkclk: matching the lowest ask and highest bid is the baseline for an exchange.
17:18	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk don't take it personally. i have no particular interest in the matter.
17:18	deanclkclk	I made 2 or 3 statements and all of a sudden...I'm too fucking stupid
17:18	benkay	it is completely unspecial.
17:18	mircea_popescu	well yes. we can see what statements you make and compare.
17:19	deanclkclk	benkay: have u traded on BTC-e?
17:19	benkay	deanclkclk: why does this matter?
17:19	deanclkclk	basically I just get the quantity I ask for
17:19	deanclkclk	well I bid
17:19	deanclkclk	I don't get more
17:19	mircea_popescu	><
17:19	mircea_popescu	why would you want to get more ?
17:19	benkay	deanclkclk: you're unfortunately trading on exchanges run by derpy web developers that don't match orders like professionals, and so you come to the conclusion that order matching is a) a hard problem and b) something you're qualified to handle.
17:19	Duffer1	how could you get more?
17:20	deanclkclk	why wouldn't anyone want to get more BTC if the purpose of the site is to find the least ask trade
17:20	pankkake	as far as I know btc-e does things properly
17:20	benkay	furthermore, the problem you're trying to solve is not actually a problem. it's a flaw in your perceptions of trading.
17:20	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk because people generally want to get what they want to get.
17:20	deanclkclk	lol
17:20	deanclkclk	ok
17:20	Duffer1	noooo not ok
17:20	deanclkclk	u people must be programmers
17:20	mircea_popescu	actually, no.
17:21	Duffer1	now you're going to walk off and do it anyways, stay and talk
17:21	mircea_popescu	the only programmer here is benkay and we only keep him around cause his gf.
17:21	benkay	oi
17:21	mircea_popescu	lol
17:21	deanclkclk	people want to get what they ask for? that doesn't make any business sense
17:21	deanclkclk	people generally likes to leverage
17:21	mircea_popescu	so when i order a wire of X dollars,
17:21	deanclkclk	so I don't know what planet u people are from
17:22	mircea_popescu	the recipient should get X+k dollars ?
17:22	deanclkclk	yes
17:22	deanclkclk	that ask
17:22	mircea_popescu	well, i suppose it must be a different planet.
17:22	deanclkclk	the bid...might get more say BTC
17:22	Duffer1	dat variety speak
17:22	Duffer1	much learning for you young padawan
17:22	pankkake	but if you want more, just ask for more. your ask might not get fully filled, so? that was the price you wanted
17:22	deanclkclk	it's not guaranteed but, hte bare minimum they get what the actually bid and ask were
17:22	mircea_popescu	maybe there could be a coin dedicated to this concept.
17:23	mircea_popescu	each transfer yields more coins i nthe recipient address than were sent
17:23	mircea_popescu	this defo beats bernankoin
17:23	pankkake	I mean bid, lol
17:23	deanclkclk	guy..do you know how market works...prices change on the fly
17:23	mircea_popescu	pankkake he just outsmarted your BNK!
17:23	deanclkclk	and trades can happen ever second
17:23	pankkake	*BEK
17:23	mircea_popescu	o my bad
17:23	deanclkclk	so if I put this bid and the price sinks...I'm would be a happy camper
17:24	Duffer1	a futures exchange?
17:24	pankkake	you'd have to know the future indeed
17:24	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk so you want to specify orders by the other part of the pair, basically ?
17:24	mircea_popescu	sells specified in dollars, buys in bitcoin for the btc/usd pair ?
17:24	deanclkclk	mircea_popescu: again..attention
17:25	deanclkclk	by the bare minimum...the traders would get what they ask for....X dollars for the seller and X BTC for the buyer
17:25	deanclkclk	but, there could be a case where Seller and Buyer gets more depending on the trade
17:25	deanclkclk	the purpose is to find the highest bid and the lowest ask
17:25	pankkake	you should write a proof of concept (without any actual monies involved)
17:26	deanclkclk	I'm already doing that
17:26	mircea_popescu	hence my advice to use play coins.
17:26	pankkake	well then perhaps I'll understand your proposal
17:26	deanclkclk	so for instance...I put 100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for 95
17:26	mircea_popescu	if your idea blows up you won't be hung out to dry.
17:26	benkay	no, you will.
17:27	deanclkclk	I save $5 dollars and I can use that 5 dollars to get an additional satososhi
17:27	mircea_popescu	ok, but not with a spiked stake in your anus
17:27	deanclkclk	it's small but it's incremental :)
17:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.07000003 = 0.63 BTC [-] {4}
17:27	mircea_popescu	o look, btctalk is down
17:27	pankkake	it's not. they banned you?
17:27	deanclkclk	now tell me...am I stupid?
17:28	Namworld	How do you find such lower ask/higher bid so buyer/seller gets more? All bids/asks are all already there when someone place an order.
17:28	deanclkclk	I'm already using testnet folks
17:28	pankkake	if I put 100 for 1 BTC and there is an ask at 95, I'm already getting that bitcoin at 95
17:28	mircea_popescu	http://nypost.com/2013/10/11/teen-who-faced-sex-offenders-list-for-streaking-commits-suicide/
17:28	ozbot	Teen kills self after streaking backlash | New York Post
17:28	mircea_popescu	key words " alabama law"
17:28	pankkake	almost everywhere
17:28	Jere_Jones	You plan on doing this *on* the blockchain?
17:28	deanclkclk	all exchanges? pankkake ?
17:29	Namworld	Yes
17:29	deanclkclk	so what happens with the $5 dollars
17:29	mircea_popescu	pankkake nm back up
17:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.13199988 = 0.66 BTC [+] {3}
17:29	Namworld	You don't spend that $5 because there is a ask lower than 100 per BTC at 95.
17:29	pankkake	you end up with $5 and 1 BTC
17:29	Namworld	That's what happen. You get 5 dollar + a BTC
17:30	deanclkclk	so why not find another satoshi for the 5 bucks?
17:30	Duffer1	or if you do a market buy, the 5$ buys from the next order inline
17:30	deanclkclk	well that's not my experience with other exchanges folks...sorry
17:30	deanclkclk	maybe I was missing something
17:30	Namworld	You CAN select to buy 100 dollar of BTC. The exchange already finds the lowest asks and gets as much BTC as possible.
17:30	Namworld	You can select amount to buy/sell in dollar or in BTC already.
17:31	Namworld	You already get the best ask/bid.
17:31	Jere_Jones	market order vs limit order
17:31	Namworld	That's how all exchanges already work.
17:31	ThickAsThieves	time to ditch OpenEx: https://www.x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc
17:31	ThickAsThieves	courtesy of Apocalyptic
17:31	pankkake	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_(exchange) basically
17:31	ozbot	Order (exchange) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:31	pankkake	omgizz! thanks Apocalyptic
17:31	mircea_popescu	curious if BingoBoingo will support it
17:32	Apocalyptic	hope you guys like this order matching better heh
17:32	pankkake	the current slowness of ATC blocks will make arbitrage annoying
17:32	BingoBoingo	Sure, will take a few hours to move out. That's usually the lag on withdrawals.
17:32	Apocalyptic	I heard a diff retarget is in 33 blocks
17:32	mircea_popescu	funny thing is, the r3wt guy will never know what exactly he missed by not being part of things.
17:32	pankkake	try 1000 more blocks
17:33	ThickAsThieves	really?
17:33	ThickAsThieves	fuuu
17:33	mircea_popescu	pankkake how long are blocks atm, 10 mns ?
17:33	ThickAsThieves	like 50m
17:33	pankkake	yeah I think it's 2016 blocks, of 512 sec blocks
17:33	deanclkclk	can you cancel a trade that's partially filled on these exchanges?
17:33	Namworld	Yes
17:33	Duffer1	every exchange i've used ya
17:34	deanclkclk	which ones?
17:34	pankkake	all of them
17:34	deanclkclk	lie
17:34	Namworld	MtGox, Bitstamp, BTC-E, you name it.
17:34	ThickAsThieves	dean we dont need more exchanges
17:34	Namworld	I don't know of one that doesn't.
17:34	Duffer1	campbx/gox/btce/mcxnow
17:34	pankkake	look, if you don't allow cancelling, you're going to end up with nonsense very quickly
17:34	Duffer1	note that half of those are dead, and the others are questionably/likely scams
17:35	deanclkclk	I've used btc-e and no way in hell I could cancel a trade that was partially filled
17:35	Apocalyptic	deanclkclk, i could
17:35	Duffer1	it's highlighted in yellow in the order book and all open positions are visible below the order book, scroll down
17:35	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves at the rate we're going we soon might. you know the joke with the cadet and his horse?
17:36	Duffer1	yellow or grey i forget, it's been a while, when you mouse over it you can cancel
17:36	deanclkclk	so must of u guys are traders?
17:36	BingoBoingo	deanclkclk: Not at all
17:36	Duffer1	hell no lol
17:36	mircea_popescu	we are the secret iluminati club of bitcoin.
17:36	mircea_popescu	nice to meet you.
17:37	deanclkclk	so if you are not traders or programmers...what the fuck is that profession?
17:37	pankkake	I'm an eternal curious finance noob
17:37	Duffer1	I'm a clinger that lost it all and hangs around for I don't know why
17:37	Namworld	Some in here are traders I suppose. Other are business owners.
17:38	Namworld	Others are just watching for info/news.
17:38	Duffer1	the Haters Club, now with Bitcoin
17:38	ThickAsThieves	i'm a serial journeyman
17:38	mircea_popescu	you're all jews.
17:38	pankkake	if only being a hater was a job
17:38	Duffer1	seriously
17:38	Duffer1	well mpoe-pr, so jealous :(
17:39	mircea_popescu	i think most people go into the press trying to make a job out of it.
17:39	mircea_popescu	ahahaha right-o!
17:40	deanclkclk	so for traders here..what do you guys would want out of an exchange that your currently not getting?
17:40	Duffer1	theft insurance
17:41	deadweasel	liquidity
17:41	Namworld	Which I don't think is feasible to begin with.
17:41	deanclkclk	anything is possible
17:41	Namworld	(insurance)
17:41	Namworld	Anything?
17:41	deanclkclk	meaning if you loose 100% of your BTC..u get back say full or partial?
17:42	benkay	i want bad trade insurance
17:42	benkay	like
17:42	benkay	i bought atc at 150
17:42	kakobrekla	http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26210053
17:42	benkay	it's now 100
17:42	benkay	i want that 50 sat back plz
17:42	mircea_popescu	actual credibility.
17:42	mircea_popescu	would be nice but it's too onerous to hope for.
17:42	Duffer1	nono if (when) the exchange is compromised and the hot/cold wallets stolen it's insured
17:42	deanclkclk	lol
17:42	mircea_popescu	how come every day there's some doofus who does nothing but parts and joins ;/
17:42	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk so make a perpetuum mobile then, why you wasting your time with this crap.
17:42	deanclkclk	the only ones credible I know are the ones registered with finrar
17:42	deanclkclk	but, most traders don't want to be tracked
17:43	Namworld	There's already BTC-e to not be tracked. They don't require any verification as far as I know.
17:43	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28818 @ 0.0008757 = 25.2359 BTC [+] {4}
17:43	Namworld	The registered ones are not typically insured.
17:43	deanclkclk	yes i know but, coinmkt requires social security
17:44	Duffer1	i don't know of any one that is insured
17:45	deanclkclk	how must of you guys get your money to exchanges? bank transfer?
17:45	Namworld	Yes. Bank transfer.
17:45	deanclkclk	that's the preferred way I guess
17:45	deanclkclk	and the fees doesn't matter to you guys right?
17:46	pankkake	there are fees for bank transfers?
17:46	mircea_popescu	...
17:46	Namworld	I don't know of any fiat transfer mechanism without fees.
17:47	deanclkclk	no...apologies. I was talking about trading fees
17:47	mircea_popescu	or i could bitch.
17:47	Namworld	What about them? What do you want to do?
17:48	davout	pankkake: oui?
17:48	deanclkclk	offering less trading fees
17:48	ThickAsThieves	i dont quite understand the OpenEx withdrawal process, but we'll see...
17:48	Namworld	Well that wouldn't get me at all.
17:48	ThickAsThieves	it doesnt even ask for a wallet
17:48	Namworld	I don't care about lower fees.
17:49	pankkake	davout: about insured deposits on exchanges
17:49	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves maybe it's psychic ?
17:49	deanclkclk	what would get you then?
17:49	pankkake	or it's a "donate all to exchange owner" feature
17:49	benkay	NOTHING FUCK OFF DIE AND GO AWAY EXCHAGES ARE THE WORST AND ATTRACT THE WORST
17:49	benkay	sorry.
17:49	deanclkclk	Again, I just started out in trading about 4 months ago but, I'm a programmer
17:49	benkay	sorry for capslock :(
17:49	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk dude srsly, nobody is using the thing of an unknown. you were here in channel when this happened, openx just lost all its business because Apocalyptic.
17:50	Namworld	You've just proposed x then y then z upon seeing the first things were already there so wouldn't work. If you couldn't figure it out, you're not fit to handle customer Bitcoins. Because when first thing will work, there won't be other things to try.
17:50	deanclkclk	huh?
17:50	Namworld	Bitcoins will be gone.
17:50	pankkake	well Apocalyptic doesn't know how to configure a mail server so I'm still waiting for the activation mail
17:50	Namworld	I'm basically not going to touch anything you'd do.
17:50	deanclkclk	those were all my value proposition ..I couldn't just come and spill everything
17:51	deanclkclk	I asked one at a time to get a feel of what people want
17:51	mircea_popescu	and Namworld comes to the same conclusion everyone else did, but after putting more effort and time into it.
17:51	ThickAsThieves	pankkake mine went to spam
17:51	Namworld	I just wanted to go through all the details of why no one here is interested.
17:51	deanclkclk	who is
17:51	pankkake	my server greylists things that do not have SPF or proper SPF
17:51	deanclkclk	who is Apocalyptic?
17:52	Duffer1	people want trust (web of trust), people want competence (any experience in finance or handling other's significant amounts of money?)
17:52	benkay	who are you?
17:52	Namworld	I like explaining why.
17:52	mircea_popescu	Namworld yeah, i didn't mean it negatively.
17:52	ThickAsThieves	;;gettrust Apocalyptic
17:52	gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user ThickAsThieves to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ThickAsThieves&dest=Apocalyptic | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Apocalyptic | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013
17:52	deanclkclk	finance is good but, also tech expertise
17:52	benkay	;;gettrust deanclkclk
17:52	gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user benkay to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=benkay&dest=deanclkclk | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=deanclkclk | Rated since: never
17:52	benkay	if you want to btc
17:52	deanclkclk	most of the problem with exchanges are tech experience
17:52	benkay	first you must wot
17:52	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk get over that. techs are monkeys. nobody cares.
17:52	pankkake	Apocalyptic: 1) add a SPF record to x-bt.com 2) if possible set your reverse dns in something x-bt.com - that will reduce your amount of spaminess greatly
17:52	deanclkclk	ok
17:53	benkay	deanclkclk: incorrect.
17:53	benkay	deanclkclk: tech is a trivial thing.
17:53	Namworld	I know you didn't mircea, just a random fact I wanted to add to it.
17:53	deanclkclk	benkay: run that command again
17:53	Namworld	With that, I'm gone. Got to meet with the family.
17:53	mircea_popescu	have fun
17:54	deanclkclk	;;gettrust deanclkclk
17:54	gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user deanclkclk to user deanclkclk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=deanclkclk&dest=deanclkclk | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=deanclkclk | Rated since: never
17:54	deanclkclk	so I need to signup to WOT. I haven't done so
17:54	benkay	you also need to read the thing you were linked way back up miles above
17:54	deanclkclk	yes
17:54	ThickAsThieves	great snapshot http://imgur.com/1guYfy2
17:54	benkay	"so you want to start a bitcoin business"
17:54	mircea_popescu	i tohught he read that
17:55	deanclkclk	again who is apocalyptic?
17:55	mircea_popescu	but it didn't apply to him, because that was for all the OTHER kids.
17:55	Duffer1	MP you should have PR add 'dat variety speak' article to her start a business thread
17:55	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves ahaha seriously ?!
17:55	pankkake	I don't know who Apocalyptic is but people I trust seem to trust him
17:55	pankkake	;;gettrust Apocalyptic
17:55	gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask Apocalyptic!~Apocalypt@unaffiliated/apocalyptic. Trust relationship from user pankkake to user Apocalyptic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=pankkake&dest=Apocalyptic | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Apocalyptic | Rated since: Mon Jul 15 09:32:50 2013
17:55	mircea_popescu	the news at 5, a string of mistakes that eventually annul each other if long enough.
17:55	Apocalyptic	pankkake, good point @SPF record
17:56	benkay	Duffer1: people who need to read Variety Speak won't get it.
17:56	deanclkclk	means that mircea_popescu recommended apocalyptic?
17:56	mircea_popescu	what im the only 1 ?
17:56	benkay	Duffer1: just like people who need to read "so you want to start a bitcoin business" can't get over their egos and get it.
17:56	ThickAsThieves	dean
17:56	deanclkclk	so let me get this straight. He created openex and people are loosing money?
17:56	ThickAsThieves	lear about the WoT
17:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.13199989 = 0.924 BTC [+]
17:56	ThickAsThieves	then youll understand why it matters at all
17:57	deanclkclk	I hear you ThickAsThieves
17:57	ThickAsThieves	and how the hell we can trust anyone across the webz
17:57	benkay	Duffer1: just like people who'd benefit from BingoBoingo's advice on how not to fail in bitcoin are too wrapped up in their silicon valley bullshit to listen to him.
17:57	assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624278/plain/)
17:57	BingoBoingo	!b 1
17:57	deanclkclk	ok so once I sign up..how does one become trusted?
17:57	Duffer1	hehe
17:57	deadweasel	'ycombinated minds' as mircea_popescu aptly put it
17:57	mircea_popescu	deanclkclk well it first and foremost takes time
17:57	ThickAsThieves	you do trustworthy things
17:57	benkay	deanclkclk: do something useful, don't screw people over.
17:57	mircea_popescu	which is why you want to do that early and then lurk here
17:58	mircea_popescu	you'll figure it out soon enough
17:58	Duffer1	you're not wrong benkay, call me a hopeless optimist though, some may learn before they lose it all instead of after
17:58	BingoBoingo	deanclkclk: You do trustful things first, eventually you get to do trustworthy things
17:58	benkay	losing it all is a part of the learning process
17:58	deanclkclk	well..I started the project from December but, I've been mostly on #bitcoin, #bitcoin-dev and #litcoin
17:58	mircea_popescu	Duffer1 benkay it was illustrated recently by herbi. the only restraint is that people's ability to be all imperial and handwave reality be overrun
17:58	benkay	whether 'all' is 9 bucks like in herbi's case, or everything everything in yours...
17:58	pankkake	what about learning by losing it half?
17:58	mircea_popescu	they don't actually have to lose anytihng per se, other than their own vanity
17:59	mircea_popescu	(or, as a progre would put it, "self-respect")
17:59	deanclkclk	I know I guy here called twitz from here..I can't remember his irc name
17:59	benkay	pankkake i gotcha buddy
17:59	Duffer1	twizt
17:59	pankkake	I learned to do backups by losing only 1/3. but I still miss it :(
17:59	ThickAsThieves	some sleepytime audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yYrYCE4i1c
17:59	benkay	one can always earn more bitcoins.
18:00	benkay	one can never fix a reputation for incompetence.
18:00	ThickAsThieves	ozbot where are you?
18:00	benkay	much less a reputation for outright scammery.
18:00	pankkake	(backups in the general sense, not losing bitcoins due to lack of backups)
18:00	Duffer1	benkayone can always earn more bitcoins. >>> i wish
18:00	benkay	Duffer1: only thing holding you back is you, cousine.
18:01	ThickAsThieves	yep, ive seen like 3 jobs posted in here this week
18:01	BingoBoingo	;;tslb
18:01	gribble	Time since last block: 13 minutes and 49 seconds
18:01	benkay	ThickAsThieves: what jobs?
18:02	ThickAsThieves	ATC Manager to the Stars
18:02	ThickAsThieves	ATC Trader to the Stars
18:02	ThickAsThieves	hehe
18:02	benkay	well that second one was actually a noob trap
18:02	ThickAsThieves	also i'll pay bounties for needed ATC services
18:02	BingoBoingo	benkay: Actually I'm handling that second on nao.
18:02	BingoBoingo	I am the n00btrap.
18:03	benkay	o yea
18:03	benkay	for teh lolz
18:03	ThickAsThieves	random thought, there;s no way in hell that wall st guy put 8 nails in himself
18:03	ThickAsThieves	he was killed
18:03	BingoBoingo	ThickAsThieves: Why not. people survive more nails than that.
18:03	ThickAsThieves	it's like 5 dead now?
18:04	benkay	five who and what?
18:04	ThickAsThieves	it makes no sense
18:04	Duffer1	oh shi there's more?
18:04	BingoBoingo	Anyways. I thought he was Colorado Title company guy. Not Wallstreet.
18:04	mircea_popescu	<benkay> << one could, perhaps, but defo not by persevering in the manner that got them the original reputation in the first place.
18:05	ThickAsThieves	if youre gonna kill yourself and you are intelligent, wtf would you nailgub yourself, and when did go for it, how the hell do you make it to 7 or 8 in the body and head?
18:05	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves you know this was discussed :D
18:05	ThickAsThieves	nailgun*
18:05	ThickAsThieves	oh you think he was killed too?
18:05	BingoBoingo	ThickAsThieves: Well, the nails themselves slow bleeding. And there was no evidence he was intelligent at all.
18:05	mircea_popescu	well it's a well known joke this, "suicide, 3 shots to the head"
18:05	Duffer1	depends on nail placement really
18:06	pankkake	probably lacked the street smarts
18:06	Duffer1	and basic knowledge of anatomy
18:06	mircea_popescu	<benkay> well that second one was actually a noob trap <<< all jobs are de facto noob traps
18:06	benkay	huh that's an interesting take
18:06	benkay	how so?
18:06	mircea_popescu	doh.
18:06	mircea_popescu	the thing that qualifies a good lay is exactly the thing that disqualifies a rotten one
18:06	benkay	oh enlighten my derpy ass
18:06	mircea_popescu	there's not this convenient cleavage of school from life irl.
18:07	Jere_Jones	Catching up on the last hour of conversation is depressing.
18:07	mircea_popescu	Jere_Jones
18:07	mircea_popescu	oops
18:07	mircea_popescu	Jere_Jones_wife : please hide any nailguns ty.
18:07	Jere_Jones	Before that. lol
18:07	davout	pankkake: what about the insured deposits ?
18:08	davout	pankkake: which deposits ? :-)
18:08	mircea_popescu	davout yes yes, we know, you have it.
18:08	davout	mircea_popescu: no i actually don't
18:08	mircea_popescu	for eur ? i thought it was eu banking w/e
18:08	mircea_popescu	"we promise you can get your money back unless germany needs it to bail out russian oligarchs in fucktardistan
18:08	mircea_popescu	"
18:08	davout	it seemed obvious to me when i first talked about it,
18:09	davout	which was a mistake, i double checked with the "fonds de garantie des dépôts" and they only cover accounts called "comptes de dépôt", and not "comptes de paiement"
18:10	mircea_popescu	o you sneak.
18:10	mircea_popescu	what are you, french ?
18:10	davout	anyway, the main point is that the money is on accounts in the name of the holders, in a financial insitution, not on our corporate accounts, and therefore legally not ours
18:10	mircea_popescu	nevertheless do go back and add addendums wherever feasible
18:11	mircea_popescu	otherwise that's grossly misrepresentative.
18:11	pankkake	the original question was "insurance from theft" though
18:11	pankkake	so that answers it
18:11	mircea_popescu	yeah but novel stuff thus unearthed
18:13	davout	pankkake: oic the question was about btc deposits
18:13	pankkake	I'm not sure
18:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00087607 = 24.7052 BTC [+] {5}
18:14	BingoBoingo	Apocalyptic: You orderbook looks weird
18:14	mircea_popescu	here on -assets we specialise in animated conversations with multiple participants all of which have no certain idea wtf the topic is, what's being said, what it means and so on.
18:14	mircea_popescu	works well enough so far.
18:14	davout	haha
18:15	mircea_popescu	the english language being employed is more an artefact of the observer than a reality of the conversation.
18:15	davout	i doubt any exchange found an insurance company to cover the btc deposits
18:15	Duffer1	have any tried?
18:16	benkay	heh i'd be surprised
18:16	davout	if any did try ?
18:16	mircea_popescu	davout sure they had.
18:16	davout	we did
18:16	mircea_popescu	CPA.
18:17	benkay	nah if any'd obtained the necessary ins
18:17	Duffer1	davout who'd you approach?
18:17	mircea_popescu	;;google usagi CPA
18:17	gribble	Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading ...: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113708.0>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 007 | Weather Philippines: <http://weather.com.ph/announcements/typhoon-usagi-odette-update-number-007>; Typhoon USAGI (ODETTE) Update Number 008 | Weather Philippines: <http://weather.com.ph/announcements/typhoon-usagi- (1 more message)
18:17	deanclkclk	pankkake: are you around?
18:17	ThickAsThieves	if anyone like's gingery drinks, this stuff is great: http://www.fever-tree.co.uk/drinks.php
18:17	davout	Duffer1: dunno, i didn't take care of that myself
18:17	Duffer1	ah
18:17	ThickAsThieves	good as mixer or a zippy refresher
18:18	ThickAsThieves	(the ginger beer)
18:18	deanclkclk	folks...attention. I bid for 1 BTC for $100 USD but, instead get 1.04 BTC
18:18	deanclkclk	does most exchange work like this?
18:18	Duffer1	how long ago? lloyds is covering some bitcoin based noob vault, they may be receptive
18:18	Duffer1	multiple tangents and generally talking past eachother? ya
18:19	mircea_popescu	i like the folks attention bit. who do you take yourself for dood.
18:19	mircea_popescu	shut up and spend the next year reading, you're not part of the speaking crowd here.
18:19	pankkake	deanclkclk: yes why?
18:20	deanclkclk	I just reread what you type and I think there's a misunderstanding
18:20	deanclkclk	see what I typed above pankkake &
18:20	deanclkclk	^
18:20	Apocalyptic	BingoBoingo, what's weird about it ?
18:21	ThickAsThieves	dean you are making shit up in your head
18:21	ThickAsThieves	of course that happens
18:21	ThickAsThieves	when you overbid
18:21	ThickAsThieves	except you spend less $ instead
18:22	ThickAsThieves	you are trying to make some kind of reverse auction bidbook?
18:22	deanclkclk	overbid is relative
18:22	deanclkclk	how do you know you overbid
18:22	deanclkclk	?
18:22	ThickAsThieves	if you knew you wouldnt overbid
18:22	deanclkclk	ThickAsThieves: that's not an exact science
18:23	deanclkclk	all I'm saying...with the site..there's no over bid
18:23	pankkake	I blame today's headache on you guys
18:23	ThickAsThieves	well the orders are always changing
18:23	deanclkclk	if you "overbid" ..u get more btc
18:23	deanclkclk	that's all
18:23	ThickAsThieves	i suggest you make your thing
18:23	deanclkclk	but, orders change a second
18:23	ThickAsThieves	sounds wonderful
18:24	deanclkclk	you sound sarcastic
18:24	ThickAsThieves	i do?
18:25	deanclkclk	well...seeing that no one here have said "wonderfule" since I've been here
18:25	ThickAsThieves	well its what you wanna hear right?
18:25	deanclkclk	well no
18:25	ThickAsThieves	oh?
18:25	deanclkclk	I want to get objective opinion
18:25	deanclkclk	rather calling me stupid
18:25	ThickAsThieves	does that opinion have to think you have a good idea?
18:26	deanclkclk	I don't know anymore
18:26	ThickAsThieves	they explained it to you
18:26	ThickAsThieves	you are scratching the surface
18:26	pankkake	the "doing it" phase usually helps you know if the idea was good or not
18:26	pankkake	and no need for real coins
18:26	deanclkclk	would testnet help?
18:27	ThickAsThieves	you dont need any coins
18:27	ThickAsThieves	its just a db
18:27	deanclkclk	ok
18:27	benkay	yeah simulate it
18:27	benkay	set it up
18:27	benkay	set up the simulations
18:27	benkay	and i'll go through the trouble of auditing your code.
18:27	deanclkclk	but, all I'm asking....do people ever work with exchanges that give you more for what you asked for?
18:27	benkay	deal?
18:27	deanclkclk	sure
18:27	mircea_popescu	benkay i thought you were busy
18:27	deanclkclk	that's a deal
18:27	benkay	he's never going to deliver.
18:28	benkay	i'm shorting his delivery.
18:28	mircea_popescu	if he is you owe me an atc.
18:28	deanclkclk	why you say that?
18:28	ThickAsThieves	a good exchange always gives you what you ask for, no?
18:28	deanclkclk	yes..that's the minimum ThickAsThieves
18:28	benkay	outta mah FACE mircea_popescu
18:28	deanclkclk	but, a better exchange gives you more
18:28	mircea_popescu	if he doesn't before you do you get 1.
18:28	Duffer1	i don't see how you could get more for what you asked for, someone has to get less in that scenario
18:28	deanclkclk	it doesn't Duffer1
18:29	benkay	i'm not taking this bet, mp.
18:29	mircea_popescu	lmao
18:29	BingoBoingo	Apocalyptic: I'm trying to put in a Bid for 12000 and instead getting bids for 12
18:29	mircea_popescu	i thought you already had. guess not huh.
18:29	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00087145 = 7.6688 BTC [-]
18:29	benkay	how had i?
18:29	mircea_popescu	"i'm shorting his delivery."
18:29	ThickAsThieves	if i understand your idea, all it does is market buy with the rest of any money you bid, if you happened to overbid
18:29	benkay	yeah if he delivers i gotta deploy some time on a code audit
18:29	deanclkclk	if I bid $100 BTC but, I got it with 99 Duffer1 ..either the user gets back $5 dollars or they trade it for some additional BTC/Satoshis
18:30	deanclkclk	sorry I got it for 95
18:30	mircea_popescu	so if he doesn't deliver before you do you get a free atc.
18:30	benkay	before i do what now?
18:30	mircea_popescu	deliver.
18:30	ThickAsThieves	wow ATC only doled out in singles now
18:30	benkay	oh mimisbrunnr?
18:30	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves expensive shit.
18:30	mircea_popescu	benkay whatever it is you're busy with
18:30	benkay	nigga i got an endless list of shit to process
18:31	ThickAsThieves	is he busy making coingenularity.io yet?
18:31	mircea_popescu	yes yes, tits brulee.
18:31	benkay	gotta keep the brain in tip top condition
18:31	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves apparently he's busy watching womenz in negligees wash dishes and programmers do mysql exchanges.
18:31	deanclkclk	whatever I'm explaining is making sense?
18:31	davout	Duffer1: do you remember the name of the "vault" that says its insured?
18:32	Duffer1	let me look
18:32	ThickAsThieves	satoshisvault?
18:32	ThickAsThieves	this ? https://www.vaultofsatoshi.com/
18:32	ThickAsThieves	fukn doge..
18:32	Duffer1	davout http://www.coindesk.com/worlds-first-insured-bitcoin-storage-service-launches-uk/
18:32	deanclkclk	so I'm saying rather than get back $5 dollars and create another trade; which time is money and during that creation you might miss a chance on a great trade
18:32	deanclkclk	the site does it for you
18:33	davout	ThickAsThieves Duffer1 thanks i'll have a look
18:33	deanclkclk	well it's an option. Get back fiat or get more crypto
18:33	benkay	ThickAsThieves: he's convinced me to hack an allchain watcher together
18:33	ThickAsThieves	a what?
18:33	benkay	precisely.
18:33	mircea_popescu	omg sikrits
18:34	benkay	shh
18:34	deanclkclk	hello? anyone can let me know if this idea makes any sense?
18:34	ThickAsThieves	lol
18:34	benkay	yes
18:34	benkay	now go do it
18:34	benkay	less talk, more do.
18:34	deanclkclk	benkay: u are not bullshitting me right?
18:34	deanclkclk	lol
18:34	ThickAsThieves	it sounds more like a feature than an exhange dean
18:34	benkay	not at all
18:34	ThickAsThieves	like a tickbox by my order fields
18:34	deanclkclk	yes
18:34	ThickAsThieves	X Full Spend if Overbid?
18:35	deanclkclk	yes
18:35	Duffer1	i don't see why you would want to dean, a person can just set their price to buy until their 100 is spent
18:35	benkay	you make an exchange, i'll audit it for you.
18:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.0008713 = 9.5843 BTC [-]
18:35	benkay	all the audits going to say is probably something like "kinda full of holes, operationally bogus, liable to lose your coins"
18:35	ThickAsThieves	why market buy when you can pseudo market buy?
18:35	deanclkclk	if you say so benkay
18:36	deanclkclk	but, it will be in beta
18:36	benkay	deal? you stop bothering us about this until it's done, when it's done i audit your codebase.
18:36	deanclkclk	what do you mean Duffer1 ?
18:36	ThickAsThieves	i like how beta means "dont look at me if your money disappears"
18:36	Duffer1	well what happens right now if you place a 100$ bid for btc on btc-e?
18:36	deanclkclk	no..it's fake coins
18:37	deanclkclk	well play coins
18:37	deanclkclk	just for testing
18:37	deanclkclk	then when launch..the site will provide 3 months of trading free
18:37	Duffer1	if your bid matches a sell, the exchange executes the trade for however much the seller sold
18:37	Duffer1	your position is still open if you have any money left and no sellers willing to meat your price
18:37	deanclkclk	hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100%
18:37	Duffer1	meet
18:38	ThickAsThieves	lol
18:38	mircea_popescu	the decision of how many months of free trade to have is a resolution of the greater issue of how to market a product, which is in turn decided and framed by greater issues.
18:38	mircea_popescu	to have fixed answers for such low level questions at this juncture merely indicates you do not have the intellectual resources to correctly model the problem you declare./
18:38	Apocalyptic	<deanclkclk> hopefully ...after about 10 months. We could insure folks coins but not like 100% // good luck with that
18:39	deanclkclk	why Apocalyptic ?
18:39	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 377 @ 0.05626923 = 21.2135 BTC [-] {12}
18:39	ThickAsThieves	lol
18:40	deanclkclk	I wasn't asking question mircea_popescu I was pitching an idea
18:40	deanclkclk	go fuck yourself
18:40	mircea_popescu	derp.
18:40	pankkake	:(
18:40	ThickAsThieves	;;roulette
18:40	gribble	*click*
18:41	ThickAsThieves	;;bcstats
18:41	gribble	Current Blocks: 286068 | Current Difficulty: 2.6214044530646152E9 | Next Difficulty At Block: 286271 | Next Difficulty In: 203 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 2 hours, 55 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: 3092710570.63 | Estimated Percent Change: 17.97915
18:41	deanclkclk	from my first sentence..you've been making me out to be a mentally retarded idiot
		↖
18:41	Duffer1	don't take that personally hehe
18:41	deanclkclk	rather than complain..offer suggestions
18:41	Duffer1	have you read Trilema?
18:41	mircea_popescu	i wasn't making you out.
18:42	deanclkclk	I don't know everything...that's why I asked for answers...suggestions
18:42	mircea_popescu	and you are neither at liberty to judge me nor are you at liberty to make recommendation.
18:42	mircea_popescu	more importantly, you aren't at liberty to ignore the recommendations i make. re-read the log, they're there.
18:42	mircea_popescu	it's not a matter of you "not knowing everything", implying we are somehow equal.
18:43	mircea_popescu	it is a matter of you not knowing anything, not even sufficiently something to allow you to understand how little you know.
18:43	deanclkclk	man
18:44	mircea_popescu	ayup.
18:44	mircea_popescu	so now that we understand ourselves, get in the wot, stfu and read the log for a while, then we can talk again.
18:45	ThickAsThieves	deanclkclk log.bitcoin-assets.com, http://assass.headfucking.net/
18:45	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06950005 = 0.139 BTC [-]
18:46	ThickAsThieves	and http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Main_Page
18:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.00087689 = 2.6307 BTC [+]
18:46	mircea_popescu	speaking of which, pankkake you may wanna take out the OTQuMjMuMjE1LjE3NA== part.
18:46	mircea_popescu	it's there so i can ip-ban spammy rss stealers.
18:48	benkay	deanclkclk: you agreed to bugger off 'till you delivered something i can audit. now do so.
18:48	davout	Duffer1: looks interesting, i see nothing obviously sketchy for the service
18:48	pankkake	I don't know if I can apply filters to this thing
18:48	davout	ThickAsThieves: vaultofsatoshi has like a 11-people team, that sounds big for an exchange that does 400 weekly volume
18:49	mircea_popescu	davout who are the 11 people ?
18:49	Duffer1	davout ya it's just insured cold storage, but maybe lloyds would be approachable about insuring an exchange
18:49	ThickAsThieves	i know nothing of it
18:49	ThickAsThieves	just recalled the name for some reason
18:49	davout	the insured guys are elliptic.co btw
18:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [-]
18:49	davout	mircea_popescu: https://www.vaultofsatoshi.com/about
18:50	mircea_popescu	davout so there's 11 stock pics or w/e.
18:50	benkay	and maybe in retrospect it's not so much a shorting as entering into an option to spend some time if the guy leaves us alone, delivery of which he'll take when/if he delivers
18:50	deanclkclk	I'll try another irc. You guys are too playful to be taken seriously
18:50	benkay	deanclkclk does that mean our deal's off?
18:50	ThickAsThieves	your loss
18:50	benkay	play is an important part of thinking
18:50	Duffer1	i doubt very much you'll receive competent advice elsewhere
18:50	ThickAsThieves	go check out bitcoin-dev or something i guess
18:51	mircea_popescu	benkay Yeah, I’m getting rid of all my furniture. All of it. And I’m going to build these different levels, with steps, and it’ll all be carpeted with a lot of pillows. You know, like ancient Egypt.
18:51	davout	mircea_popescu: exactly, which looks sketchy
18:51	davout	deanclkclk: you want advice to create your exchange?
18:52	benkay	deanclkclk: you might listen to davout he does what you're dreaming of doing.
18:52	deanclkclk	I don't want on how to create an exchange. I'm just pitching my idea to get a feel of what people think
18:52	mircea_popescu	davout is too playful to be taken srsly.
18:52	deanclkclk	want a how to*
18:52	davout	deanclkclk: so you want a howto about how to create an exchange?
18:53	deanclkclk	lol
18:53	deanclkclk	oh boy
18:53	mircea_popescu	i could use a how to on how to.
18:53	ThickAsThieves	OpenEx is opensource, use that
18:53	benkay	yeah your howotos suck, mircea_popescu
18:53	Apocalyptic	(don't)
18:53	mircea_popescu	WHAT!
18:53	benkay	it's like you write 'em yourself or something ;)
18:54	mircea_popescu	i am so misunderstood. nobody understands me
18:54	mircea_popescu	im going to shoot myself with the stapler gun nao
18:54	benkay	well you write for yourself, is it any surprise?
18:54	davout	deanclkclk: oh sorry, I misread, what's your idea?
18:54	benkay	jurov had to pay me to write a manual for your "exchange"
18:55	Duffer1	ha i told stringpuller there was money there like months ago
18:55	deanclkclk	davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for
18:55	ThickAsThieves	what i hate about mpex is, whenever i overbid, i have btc left unspent, fukn noobs
18:55	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves i was in talks with some people to recharge your phone after bids if there's like stuff left over
18:56	mircea_popescu	however i think they od'd or something because i haven't heard from them in a while
18:56	deanclkclk	do you folks trade on sites or mobile apps?
18:56	pankkake	idea: when you overpay for shares, it is distributer to the seller; we would call this tipping
18:56	ThickAsThieves	mostly via SMS
18:56	mircea_popescu	whoa a TIPPING EXCHANGE
18:57	Apocalyptic	<deanclkclk> davout: basically from a trade..people get more from what they ask for // so what about it ?
18:57	mircea_popescu	it could be all coded in doge-os
18:57	BingoBoingo	doge.js
18:57	pankkake	well, http://lolcode.org/
18:57	deanclkclk	dajavu but, anyways
18:57	pankkake	omg "now with doge"
18:57	Apocalyptic	BTC China already has these rebates, where the fee for the liquidity taker goes to the one who put up the bid/ask
18:58	mircea_popescu	i wonder if praeconium has an evil sock meconium
18:58	davout	deanclkclk: that's your idea for an exchange?
18:58	deanclkclk	I bid a $100 for 1 BTC and I find a ask for $95.
18:58	benkay	doge-vu
18:58	davout	i spend all the 100$ and get more btc
18:58	davout	yeah i got that
18:59	deanclkclk	and use the $5 dollars to find an additional ask
18:59	BingoBoingo	"I'm fucking sick of hearing people say use your brian, etc." https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=467059.msg5167848#msg5167848
18:59	davout	deanclkclk: this is not a very interesting idea, and certainly not an idea worth building an exchange around
18:59	deanclkclk	so basically you could have a case where for the original $100 for 1 BTC..I get 1.02 btc
19:00	deanclkclk	@ davout ^
19:00	davout	yeah, i got that the first time
19:00	davout	:-)
19:00	deanclkclk	ok
19:00	mircea_popescu	O RLY? YA RLY <code block> NO WAI <code block> OIC
19:00	deanclkclk	why isn't it interesting?
19:01	mircea_popescu	ok this is pretty good :D
19:01	Bugpowder	mircea_popescu: when is the MPOEbot coming back? And when will pending deposits be credited?
19:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00087433 = 4.2405 BTC [-]
19:01	mircea_popescu	Bugpowder the bot just as soon as it manages to talk to bitcoincharts
19:02	deanclkclk	@ davout ^
19:02	mircea_popescu	and deposits just as soon as lemme see
19:02	davout	deanclkclk: because you reinvented market orders, except you have the currency amount you're spending locked, not the currency you're buying
19:02	Bugpowder	been waiting for a test deposit for 36 hours....
19:02	davout	bitstamp already does it
19:03	davout	deanclkclk: so no, it's not a very interesting idea, not a bad way to let users place orders but still
19:03	deanclkclk	you are a trader davout ?
19:04	mircea_popescu	incredible how thick this guy is lmao
19:04	davout	goodbye deanclkclk, i'm going to play
19:04	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo pretty lulzy.
19:04	deanclkclk	davout: it benefits the seller and buyer. I was talking from mostly from the buyer
19:04	deanclkclk	ok
19:04	Bugpowder	I like the cryptsy system of, whatever bid you place that is over market, you get filled at asks at that exact price.
19:05	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Of course. Who really wants to use their acquaintance Brian in that way at all. Everyone knows their Brian will just flag everything as a scam and tell them to STFU n00b.
19:05	mircea_popescu	clearly evil brian.
19:05	Duffer1	cryptsy system of trading, make trade, it executes a few hours later
19:05	mircea_popescu	Bugpowder why ?
19:06	deanclkclk	Duffer1: u mean everything gets execute late?
19:06	Bugpowder	you know... place asks and bids way off market at round numbers, get favorably filled at random intervals in the future.
19:06	Duffer1	it was a joke, cryptsy is a joke ^.^
19:07	mircea_popescu	sounds artistic.
19:07	mircea_popescu	like you know, trade as a happening.
19:08	BingoBoingo	I'm wondering when other ATC people are coming over to Apocalyptic's exchange.
19:08	BingoBoingo	Or... are we all waiting for Openex withdrawals
19:09	benkay	openex scam
19:09	benkay	use your brian BingoBoingo
19:09	Apocalyptic	first ATC deposits will confirm in a couple of hours given the network rate, no much action to be expected until then
19:09	Bugpowder	heheh
19:09	Apocalyptic	benkay, indeed
19:10	BingoBoingo	benkay: They have processed withdrawals before, it just usually takes 12 hours or so. Now, their order matching... totally scam.
19:10	mircea_popescu	yeah even on the internets ppl need a little time
19:10	Apocalyptic	it seems deanclkclk took his idea over to -otc now
19:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00087723 = 24.2115 BTC [+] {4}
19:13	Duffer1	i wonder how many times he's been offered super cheap ltc
19:13	mircea_popescu	prolly a much better environment for him anwyay.
19:14	davout	deanclkclk: what people are trying to tell you is that your idea is not retarded, but that it does not constitute an original value proposition
19:14	benkay	you guys you guys you guys
19:14	benkay	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_JOBCLF-I
19:14	benkay	THAT IS EVERYONE IN BITCOIN
19:14	benkay	especially deanclkclk
19:14	benkay	plus also the animations are pretty sweet
19:17	mircea_popescu	omfg the derpage.
19:18	benkay	did i just get mircea_popescu to watch a video?
19:19	mircea_popescu	indirectly but yet.
19:19	mircea_popescu	yes*
19:19	benkay	indirectly?
19:19	mircea_popescu	someone must be punished for this.
19:19	benkay	it's his fault.
19:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00087806 = 8.3416 BTC [+] {2}
19:23	BingoBoingo	Looks like Openex just processed a batch of withdrawls. Once these things confirm it will be time to shoot them over to x-bt
19:27	Apocalyptic	.d
19:27	Apocalyptic	damn you ozbot
19:27	BingoBoingo	;;diff
19:27	gribble	2.6214044530646152E9
19:28	asciilifeform	;;gpg eauth asciilifeform
19:28	gribble	Request successful for user asciilifeform, hostmask asciilifeform!~asciilife@pool-96-241-145-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/B98228A001ABFFC7
19:29	asciilifeform	;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:1b013f0cf4604b0b39eee440b7280e1eb97c6aab5d299814ffc31393
19:29	gribble	You are now authenticated for user asciilifeform with key B98228A001ABFFC7
19:29	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: in a world where every "idea" is in fact chewed and spit and chewed so many times by so many generations by now all that's left is the spit itself << not quite.
19:30	asciilifeform	fundamental ideas are still possible.
19:30	mircea_popescu	like for instance.
19:30	asciilifeform	i have so little faith in the meta-nsa that i'll drop one here.
19:30	mircea_popescu	can be historical
19:30	mircea_popescu	doesn't have to be curren
19:30	mircea_popescu	t
19:31	asciilifeform	2 yrs. ago i figured out how to flex a fairly ordinary multi-conductor cable in an arbitrary spot, at an arbitrary angle, purely electrically.
		↖ ↖ ↖
19:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.05500028 = 1.1 BTC [-] {3}
19:31	asciilifeform	this alone should be enough detail for any 'alert reader' to replicate...
19:32	mircea_popescu	and this is fundamental ?
19:33	asciilifeform	depends on your definition of fundamental. robotics without motors, gears, shafts, lubrication...
19:33	asciilifeform	if 'fundamental' means 'discover new field of mathematics', then clearly not.
19:33	mircea_popescu	well given what you were replying to i took fundamental to mean "which was never afore thought"
19:34	asciilifeform	i did try to find some prior art, of some kind. found none.
19:34	asciilifeform	i post this turd here, to challenge the 1,000 idlers listening to us, to do so.
19:34	asciilifeform	i'd dearly love for it to be found. so i'm not stuck building the damn thing.
19:35	asciilifeform	hint: waveguide allowed to deform.
19:36	asciilifeform	as far as i could tell, the last fellow who pondered a related question was mr. t, when he coughed up the ac motor.
19:36	mircea_popescu	seems to me about half the 12-yo-boy demographic cartoons out there use this concept.
19:36	mircea_popescu	understand, my approach was cultural not technical.
19:36	asciilifeform	?
19:36	asciilifeform	every animated robot i know of shows robotic arms with joints
19:37	asciilifeform	rather than walking coax.
19:38	mircea_popescu	i just googled "robot cartoon"
19:38	asciilifeform	(well, triax.)
19:38	mircea_popescu	the 7 images at the top include 0 articulated arms
19:38	mircea_popescu	all are some sort of tube
19:40	asciilifeform	they still typically show at least vaguely jointed movement.
19:40	asciilifeform	though perhaps an aficionado of tentacle porn could cough up a counter-example.
19:41	mircea_popescu	now, obviously the fact that star-trek revolves around ipads does exactly nothing in a discussion of prior ipad art
19:41	mircea_popescu	but it was this rather than that angle i was pursuing.
19:42	asciilifeform	so, boolean algebra. fundamental? or, aristotle?
19:42	asciilifeform	(that is, or not, given the latter)
19:43	mircea_popescu	right.
19:43	asciilifeform	semiconductor?
19:43	mircea_popescu	the cellphone is a trivial greek trinket. they didn't know how to make it, but they did have them in their speech
19:43	mircea_popescu	semiconductor is fundamental perhaps.
19:44	asciilifeform	public key crypto?
19:44	mircea_popescu	certainly the strange behaviours of quantum that manifest at a macro level, from magnetism to histerezis, would perhaps count.
19:44	asciilifeform	i tend to think of 'fundamental' in the literal sense. that is, becomes a foundation for a recognizably novel class of things
19:44	mircea_popescu	pkc definitely not.
19:44	mircea_popescu	yeah but novel in what sense.
19:44	mircea_popescu	novel as in "never made before" or novel as in "never spoken of before" ?
19:45	asciilifeform	novel in the classic sense of transforming a 'mystery' into a mere 'problem'.
19:45	mircea_popescu	right. but still, people spoke of the mystery back when it was not yet a problem
19:46	mircea_popescu	would you say the people trying to disprove (or for that matter prove) ZFC are or are not included ?
19:46	asciilifeform	can only be said in retrospect.
19:46	mircea_popescu	does only the speech of whoever gets the result count ?
19:46	mircea_popescu	right. which is what invalidates (from a purely philosophical pov) the approach
19:47	Bugpowder	mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon.
19:47	asciilifeform	true. the turd i threw in is not 'fundamental invention', unless it is 10 yrs. later.
19:47	asciilifeform	(and the stepper motor and ball screw go to the junkyard)
19:49	asciilifeform	(picture, say, street swept by long spool of wire with a broom on one end and a lunchbox-sized driver on the other.)
19:50	asciilifeform	every day i wake up and wonder how many other folks are sitting on crap like this
19:50	asciilifeform	because there's no place for it.
19:50	ThickAsThieves	<Bugpowder> mircea_popescu: ty... Hoping to see MPOEbot make a triumphant return soon. /// unlikely til Gox reopens wd's
19:50	mircea_popescu	why ?
19:51	ThickAsThieves	cuz i assume bot is off cuz risk
19:51	Bugpowder	as do i
19:51	mircea_popescu	no, srsly, it actually did not get prices.
19:51	Bugpowder	shorting puts right now would be sweet
19:51	mircea_popescu	last it quoted was sometime yest.
19:51	ThickAsThieves	where do you get prices?
19:51	Bugpowder	though shorting puts yesterday would have been sweeter.
19:52	ThickAsThieves	http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/weighted_prices.json
19:52	ThickAsThieves	works for me
19:52	mircea_popescu	http://mpex.co/faq.html#25 same place.
19:52	mircea_popescu	yes but it has to answer when the bot asks
19:52	Bugpowder	;;bc,24hprc
19:52	gribble	463.40
19:52	ThickAsThieves	ok
19:53	ThickAsThieves	bot asks like every 10min no?
19:53	mircea_popescu	i think there may be a cascading effect where if it misses one it asks too often and then it gets banned for an interval
19:53	mircea_popescu	but i was never able to troubleshoot it
19:54	mircea_popescu	how would it have been sweet yest anyway ? seem sthe price dropped.
19:54	asciilifeform	unrelated: neat find, from today's trip to library, for all crypto aficionados: 'Post-Quantum Cryptography.' Bernstein, Buchmann & Dahmen. (2009)
19:55	ThickAsThieves	i dont plan on buying any, i just think it's weird how this happens every "crash"
19:55	mircea_popescu	does it tho ?
19:55	asciilifeform	(anyone playing with mceliece and the like will find something delicious therein)
19:55	ThickAsThieves	at least 2 of the 3 ive seen
19:56	ThickAsThieves	i dont recall abnout the 1200 drop
19:56	mircea_popescu	yeah well in this process any data can be fit to any hypothesis.
19:56	Apocalyptic	asciilifeform, you're into crypto ?
19:56	ThickAsThieves	mpex would certainly look better to be working than not
19:56	asciilifeform	Apocalyptic: just so happens i'm into a number of things.
19:56	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves no particular requirement one can't just trade as is you know ?
19:57	ThickAsThieves	not sure what you are saying
19:57	Apocalyptic	I wrote some crypto challenges a couple of years ago, involving breaking hash functions and differential crypto, they might interest you
19:58	mircea_popescu	i am saying that mpex allows people to trade whether the bot quotes or doesn't quote,
19:58	ThickAsThieves	we're talking about the bot
19:58	mircea_popescu	and that the bot is a private offering which is in principle not required to offer anyone any convenience other than its backers.
19:58	mircea_popescu	so it can't possibly a) look good or bad b) make mpex anything.
19:58	benkay	people can't price options on their own, though mircea. that competence thing.
19:58	ThickAsThieves	to you maybe
19:59	mircea_popescu	well to logix
19:59	ThickAsThieves	why not fix it?
19:59	benkay	it's not making any money for mpex shareholders not trading!
20:00	ThickAsThieves	^ decent argument as well
20:00	mircea_popescu	cuz it's a fucking hassle to fiddle with its feed, it being hardened ;/
20:00	benkay	ThickAsThieves that sounds like a call for a subscription market service.
20:00	ThickAsThieves	sound slike something karpeles would say
20:00	mircea_popescu	but yeah, quoting outages are temporary, people (who don't generally trade) like to bitch/find conspiraci explanations for otherwise random events.
20:00	mircea_popescu	which you know, how much effort can i expend chasing.
20:01	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves dude wtf are you talking about srsly. what is the connection there ?
20:02	asciilifeform	a hilarious find, from the same trip: http://imgur.com/6JhjQeY
20:02	ThickAsThieves	saying it's a hassle to fix a broken service?
20:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06099997 = 0.61 BTC [+] {2}
20:02	mircea_popescu	i think you misrepresent a convenience for a right.
20:03	asciilifeform	i was not able to locate the ditch filled with the non-functioning students.
20:03	asciilifeform	but i admit i did not look very hard.
20:03	benkay	all in their bedrooms
20:03	mircea_popescu	the bot doesn't have to quote any more than you do. where's your quote on options ?
20:03	benkay	ruminating on the future of los estados unidos
20:03	mircea_popescu	have you fixed this broken service ?
20:03	ThickAsThieves	no one has to do anything
20:03	ThickAsThieves	let's just all go home
20:03	benkay	also wtf terp asciilifeform?
20:04	asciilifeform	turtle is the symbol of the uni. for some reason.
20:04	mircea_popescu	no but srsly.
20:04	benkay	yeah but - 'terp'?
20:04	asciilifeform	terrapin turtle
20:04	ThickAsThieves	is there any logging of mpexbot uptime?
20:04	ThickAsThieves	optionsbot
20:04	asciilifeform	about palm-sized.
20:04	ThickAsThieves	not sure what you name it
20:04	mircea_popescu	not that i know, but i suppose it's becoming more useful.
20:04	Apocalyptic	benkay, a mix between turtle and derp
20:05	benkay	all terps are henceforth confined to their quarters
20:05	benkay	ritual canings will be administered until moral improves.
20:05	asciilifeform	there is a statue on the campus, car-sized, so many of the locals think it must be a gigantic sea-turtle.
20:05	ThickAsThieves	i guess no one cares but Bugpowder anyway
20:05	benkay	morale*
20:05	ThickAsThieves	i still think it's lame
20:05	benkay	i care where's my damn options bot profit
20:05	mircea_popescu	so make a watcher and do some research.
20:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00087866 = 24.1632 BTC [+] {4}
20:06	benkay	i don't really much care in the grand scheme of things but its a point what needs making.
20:06	Bugpowder	I have a history of crushing MPOEbot. I think MP fears my awesome trading powers and has pulled the bot.
20:06	benkay	lol yeah he saw you fiddling with your key again and pulled the bot
20:06	ThickAsThieves	it did happen whilst you were sorting out your key!
20:06	Bugpowder	EXACTLY
20:06	mircea_popescu	clearly!
20:06	ThickAsThieves	observably!
20:06	Bugpowder	ALSO HE DELAYED DEPOSIT FLUSHING
20:07	Bugpowder	DOUBLEY SAFE
20:07	benkay	teh horreur
20:07	mircea_popescu	no that was because of satoshi malleability.
20:07	asciilifeform	the turtle statue traditionally gets 'offerings' during exam week. this year, more whiskey bottles and handmade bongs than ever before.
20:07	mircea_popescu	we had to check all satoshis for cubeness
20:07	mircea_popescu	by hand
20:07	mircea_popescu	one at a time
20:07	benkay	malleability options next?
20:07	Bugpowder	heh
20:07	Bugpowder	to manipulatable
20:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.00296999 = 0.1574 BTC [+]
20:08	benkay	well yeah
20:09	davout	"we had to check all satoshis for cubeness" <<< win
20:10	Bugpowder	I imagine the feed will start working around the same time gox gets dropped from bitcoincharts, and the artificial price jump risk will have been eliminated
20:10	mircea_popescu	with all the bitching,
20:10	mircea_popescu	13924429xx ; 13924424xx ; 13924419xx ; 13924414xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924408xx ; 13924403xx ; 13924403xx ; 13923763xx ; 13923724xx ; 13923716xx
20:10	mircea_popescu	that's the past 12 times it quoted
20:10	mircea_popescu	Bugpowder srsly, mtgox is not even in the feed of bitcoincharts, since days ago.
20:11	mircea_popescu	it has exactly 0 impact in all this discussion.
20:11	ThickAsThieves	yes it is
20:11	mircea_popescu	mnope.
20:11	Bugpowder	it is
20:11	Bugpowder	how do they get $465 / BTC
20:11	Bugpowder	without it.
20:11	Bugpowder	IMPOSSIBURU
20:11	ThickAsThieves	you even noted yourself yesterday
20:11	ThickAsThieves	that it factors euro
20:12	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 439 @ 0.00296999 = 1.3038 BTC [+] {2}
20:12	ThickAsThieves	goxprice
20:12	mircea_popescu	o wow look at that.
20:12	mircea_popescu	well this is definite bs.
20:12	mircea_popescu	but but but wtf, soimehow my bot sees 500ish avgs
20:13	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 76 @ 0.00296999 = 0.2257 BTC [+]
20:13	ThickAsThieves	i thgought it couldnt see?
20:13	mircea_popescu	537 last
20:13	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves i just gave you above a list of last times it quoted!
20:13	pankkake	Updated http://assass.headfucking.net/ : better CSS(!), strip weird Trilema feed stuff, links to foaf/opml so you can import the list into your own reader. and this is genius: http://intertwingly.net/code/venus/docs/filters.html
20:14	ThickAsThieves	how do i read that list?
20:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 392 @ 0.00296998 = 1.1642 BTC [-] {2}
20:14	mircea_popescu	unixtime
20:14	Bugpowder	I just want to short 50 DITM puts. A pittance.
20:14	Bugpowder	come back MPOEbot
20:14	Bugpowder	come back
20:14	Bugpowder	I miss u
20:15	mircea_popescu	dude did bitcoincharts split the feeds or something wtf is going on here.
20:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 40 @ 0.00297 = 0.1188 BTC [+]
20:15	Bugpowder	http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currencies/
20:15	ozbot	Bitcoin Charts / Markets
20:15	Bugpowder	what feed are you looking at?
20:15	davout	mircea_popescu: if they removed gox from the index it'll probably still be taking into account data from before the removal
20:16	Bugpowder	24hr bor
20:16	Bugpowder	bro
20:16	davout	Bugpowder: if it's the 24avg and it's been more than 24h then yes I guess sthg is off
20:17	ThickAsThieves	i dont think they removed gox
20:17	ThickAsThieves	and i doubt they will
20:17	davout	this ^
20:17	Bugpowder	I don't see why they should.
20:18	Bugpowder	They aren't making financial decisions based on their quote
20:18	mircea_popescu	sooooo
20:18	Bugpowder	though a nefarious agent could potentially take an options position and bribe them to remove it for assured profit.
20:18	mircea_popescu	turns out bugpowder is exactly right. bot actually isn't quoting because feeds disagree not because it couldn't get them.
		↖
20:18	mircea_popescu	i was wrong o.o
20:19	benkay	!b2
20:19	assbot	Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624396/plain/)
20:19	ThickAsThieves	!b 3
20:19	benkay	foar history.
20:19	Bugpowder	lol
20:19	mircea_popescu	well fuck me am i supposed to know all this code these people write all the time everywhere omfgbbq
20:20	kakobrekla	i take bribes not to publish that.
20:20	Apocalyptic	heh
20:20	ThickAsThieves	lol
20:20	ThickAsThieves	we do it cuz we love you mp
20:20	Bugpowder	You should get the line before it too.
20:20	Bugpowder	A prediction of the future
20:20	Bugpowder	Feb 27, 2014.
20:20	benkay	mircea_popescu's having software trubbles
20:21	benkay	lol prole problems
20:21	davout	2015 -> "intern accidentally deletes mpex"
20:21	benkay	proleblems
20:21	assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624399/plain/)
20:21	benkay	!b 1
20:21	mircea_popescu	benkay the sad part of this of course being that this is actually according to spec i wrote myself.
20:21	benkay	wow the spec didn't account for all edge cases
20:21	mircea_popescu	at a time long ago when nobody had heard of such a case or imagined it likely.
20:21	benkay	color my ass surprised
20:21	mircea_popescu	no, that's the problem : it did.
20:22	mircea_popescu	it accounted for cases i duly forgot about and then happened
20:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]
20:22	benkay	oh well then
20:22	benkay	mp wrote a spec that performs
20:22	benkay	color my ass surprised?
20:22	benkay	just joshin ya boss
20:23	mircea_popescu	anyway, mpoebot isn't quoting because the derivation among exchanges is too large, and likely won't until this is resolved somehow.
20:23	kakobrekla	why was the last quote 13923716xx then
20:24	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06700005 = 0.335 BTC [+]
20:24	Bugpowder	That seems more plausible
20:25	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla because then somehow (?!) the bitcoincharts avg came out as 537
20:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 564 @ 0.00023993 = 0.1353 BTC [-] {4}
20:25	mircea_popescu	which i still have no idea how
20:25	Bugpowder	mircea_popescu taps his keyboard of +3 plausibility.
20:25	kakobrekla	arite.
20:25	mircea_popescu	anyway ppls thanks for bringing it up lol.
20:26	mircea_popescu	by being in -assets i get the chance to learn how mpoebot etc actually work.
20:26	mircea_popescu	of course...this opnes up a fucking conundrum from hell,
20:26	mircea_popescu	because i am currently carrying a shitton of puts, which i would contractually be allowed to execute at the 430 bs bitcoincharts price
20:27	benkay	;;ticker --market btcavg
20:27	gribble	BitcoinAverage BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 652.46, Best ask: 654.28, Bid-ask spread: 1.82000, Last trade: 654.25, 24 hour volume: 39430.17, 24 hour low: None, 24 hour high: None, 24 hour vwap: 647.65
20:28	mircea_popescu	hmm i wonder where that's from.
20:28	mircea_popescu	nanotube where does gribble get ;;ticker --market btcavg data from ?
20:29	TomServo	I'd guess https://bitcoinaverage.com/#USD
20:29	Bugpowder	EXERCISE THAT SHIT
20:29	TomServo	Not sure why that's not the default tbh
20:29	nanotube	mircea_popescu: bitcoinaverage.com
20:29	mircea_popescu	a ty.
20:29	mircea_popescu	TomServo who runs it ? do you know ?
20:29	Bugpowder	It's 23,000BTC worth
20:30	Bugpowder	EXERCISE
20:30	Bugpowder	MAKE DAT MONEY
20:30	TomServo	mircea_popescu: I don't, sorry.
20:30	Bugpowder	12,000BTC PROFIT
20:30	nanotube	mircea_popescu: bitnumus
20:30	mircea_popescu	aha.
20:32	nanotube	mircea_popescu: bitcoincharts average got messed up one day, because anx.hk accidentally pushed dogecoin trade data in place of bitcoin - thus producing high volume at really low price, and screwing things up.
		↖
20:32	mircea_popescu	nanotube was that day like feb 14th ?
20:33	nanotube	i think charts has removed anx.hk for the moment
20:33	nanotube	erhm... let me see
20:33	benkay	#bitcoin-assets
20:33	nanotube	nope, that event was on feb 10
20:33	benkay	testing in production since 2011
20:34	assbot	Last 7 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1624416/plain/)
20:34	benkay	!b 7
20:34	nanotube	heh
20:37	BingoBoingo	Looks like x-bt had its first ATC trade
20:38	pankkake	there's a usuability issue, when you put an order, you get into the page in POST mode; refreshing it would likely submit the order a second time
20:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00087806 = 8.8684 BTC [-]
20:39	Apocalyptic	it wouldn't pankkake
20:39	mircea_popescu	what's the url again ?
20:39	Apocalyptic	csrf one-time token on every form
20:39	pankkake	oh, right
20:39	pankkake	https://x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc
20:39	BingoBoingo	https://x-bt.com/markets/atcbtc
20:39	ozbot	X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
20:39	ozbot	X-BT - The new marketplace for trading Bitcoin with Litecoin, Namecoin and Altcoin
20:39	mircea_popescu	ty
20:39	Apocalyptic	unless you submit it before the script has a chance to set the new token ofc
20:40	mircea_popescu	um...
20:40	pankkake	I'm trying a herbijujular strategy!
20:40	mircea_popescu	you don't disable tokens after use ?
20:40	cads	mircea_popescu: I'm looking for introductory materials in quantitative finance with focus on hedge funds and derivatives valuation. Any input in this direction?
20:40	mircea_popescu	cads it'd deeply depend on what your background is.
20:40	mircea_popescu	pure math no finance ?
20:41	benkay	cads: joshi, derivatives.
20:41	mircea_popescu	i r guess ms joshi can't hurt
20:41	cads	mircea_popescu: some economics and game theory
20:42	mircea_popescu	"on becoming a quant", see if you hate it
20:42	mircea_popescu	iirc it was free
20:42	cads	math background is category theory, algebra, graphs and computation/logic
20:42	benkay	http://www.markjoshi.com/downloads/advice.pdf
20:42	benkay	that'd be the piece in question, cads.
20:42	cads	cool, I'll give joshi a spin
20:43	benkay	also jc hull
20:43	benkay	options derivatives and stuff
20:43	benkay	req'd reading.
20:43	mircea_popescu	bear in mind that quants are idiots tho. always important to keep this clearly in your head
20:43	mircea_popescu	lest you end up believing your imagination has some bearing on reality.
20:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 582 @ 0.00083559 = 0.4863 BTC [+]
20:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06799997 = 0.408 BTC [+]
20:45	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06799997 = 0.34 BTC [+]
20:46	mircea_popescu	on which topic n taleb's stuff can't be sufficiently recommended i guess.
20:46	cads	mircea_popescu: Haha you mean quantitative models don't magically reorganize reality into your will?
20:46	mircea_popescu	exactly
20:46	mircea_popescu	and what's worse :
20:46	BingoBoingo	The herbi lesson where you place orders based on how you want the book to look rather than on how you could buy and sell at palatable prices.
20:46	mircea_popescu	this remains true no matter how breathtakingly beautiful, elegant or symetrical they be.
20:46	benkay	no mircea_popescu you see i have this model and it shows that if things were different things would be different
20:47	mircea_popescu	i have a different model.
20:47	mircea_popescu	the volatility in this chan is fantasitc, not two hours ago we were discussing the new and improved ordering whereby you get more phonenumber with your order,
20:48	mircea_popescu	now we're knee deep in kaballah,
20:48	mircea_popescu	it never ends with you people.
20:49	benkay	quantitative finance -> kabbalah
20:49	benkay	i'll buy that one ;)
20:50	mircea_popescu	benkay what do you think numeric/quantitative methods are ?
20:51	mircea_popescu	re asciilifeform's coin of dry spittle.
20:51	cads	I've been butting heads with the stochastic calculus and I think I'm about ready to start reading Probability with Martingales - random variables, random processes, and statistics are starting to feel a lot more natural.
20:51	BingoBoingo	The stuff that made Madonna dump A-Rod because his Batting average and WAR stopped being good numbers.
20:51	cads	Surprisingly so.... I'd hate for it to go to my head, though :)
20:52	mircea_popescu	cads you seen the predictonator ?
20:54	cads	Sounds like something a fund manager would name his secret pet model
20:55	benkay	mircea_popescu: stochastic simulations, generally? you'd know more than me...
20:55	benkay	i was cracking wise about the technical folks' tendency to resort to blind incantations.
20:55	mircea_popescu	http://www.loper-os.org/bad-at-entropy/manmach.html
20:55	ozbot	Man vs. Machine.
20:55	mircea_popescu	tjhat thing
20:56	mircea_popescu	benkay but dja know what the kabbalist ppl mostly do ?
20:57	cads	the thing I find very useful about the calculus is that, forget finance, say you're dealing with an arrival process in a factory production cell or in an autonomous agent - now /that/ is a situation where your models basically become the magic word of god.
20:57	mircea_popescu	this is true.
20:57	benkay	mircea_popescu: what?
20:58	benkay	cads: you can find greater job satisfaction at a lower rate doing stochastic inventory and supply chain stuff. that said, you have to live in factories or warehouses and interact with line staff from time to time.
20:58	mircea_popescu	benkay you familiar with how if you read only the nth letter in an arbitrary string you may find a message in there ?
20:58	benkay	mircea_popescu: yup
20:58	mircea_popescu	that, then.
20:59	cads	benkay: I currently /am/ a factory worker :)
20:59	mircea_popescu	and various variations and generalisations
20:59	benkay	stochastic extraction of "sensible" strings from longer ones?
20:59	mircea_popescu	which all amount to basically "let's find the parametric function of the future" or meaning or w/e
20:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 785 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1947 BTC [+]
21:00	benkay	cads: well then there ain't nowhere to go but up!
21:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.55999949 = 1.12 BTC [+] {2}
21:03	cads	So knowing the nth letter of say an english message will definitely give a probability distribution for things like "what word does this letter belong to" or "is this the middle or end of a word."
21:03	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.00087779 = 21.4181 BTC [-] {2}
21:04	mircea_popescu	cads except that's the correct way to use numeric methods
21:04	mircea_popescu	(ie, as to the message processed)
21:04	mircea_popescu	the kabbalistic approach is to use them in the manner global warmists use their "data"
21:04	mircea_popescu	ie, to predict or enact the word of gawd.
21:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02579995 = 0.1032 BTC [-]
21:06	mircea_popescu	(because you see, everything is in the torah, including the birthdate of your future wife you;ve not yet met, as well as the name of her secret lover)
21:06	benkay	this is true of π as well.
21:06	mircea_popescu	it is also true of the assets bash.
21:07	benkay	oh, our corpus isn't quite *that* large or *that* stochastic now...
21:07	BingoBoingo	And the trillions of hashes per second which aren't good enough to find blocks.
21:07	mircea_popescu	nevertheless it includes by reference enough material.
21:08	cads	This is why I refuse to learn finance first. I'd rather take whatever math intuition handicap than be caught using theorems whose conditions are not satisfied.
21:08	mircea_popescu	cads you'll never be popular with the fiat-finance crowds,
21:08	mircea_popescu	but at least you can always hang out here.
21:10	Bugpowder	You could probably do well in the just-dice groupie scene too
21:10	kakobrekla	lol price on gox just went 370->530
21:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6034 @ 0.0008728 = 5.2665 BTC [-] {2}
21:11	Bugpowder	god damn it
21:11	cads	oh yeah, I'd heard of a sizeable market crash.
21:11	Bugpowder	time for the bot to start quoting again
21:11	benkay	;;ticker --market mtgox
21:11	gribble	MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 440.0, Best ask: 442.97, Bid-ask spread: 2.97000, Last trade: 450.0, 24 hour volume: 53582.53478578, 24 hour low: 310.0, 24 hour high: 540.0, 24 hour vwap: 368.92604
21:12	Bugpowder	Roger Ver's deposit cleared
21:12	benkay	the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy.
21:12	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: re: von neumann widget, lol. can't wait for some joker to start 'predicting market'
21:12	pankkake	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1y116j/mtgox_bitcoin_withdrawals_working_again/ successful trolling I guess
21:12	ozbot	MtGox bitcoin withdrawals working again : Bitcoin
21:12	mircea_popescu	start ?!
21:12	cads	bitcoinity.org is now tracking bitstamp rather than gox?
21:12	mircea_popescu	cads pretty much everyone is.
21:12	mircea_popescu	;;ticker
21:13	gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 666.0, Best ask: 669.0, Bid-ask spread: 3.00000, Last trade: 666.0, 24 hour volume: 20510.92582860, 24 hour low: 628.88, 24 hour high: 673.01, 24 hour vwap: 650.017359511
21:13	cads	Do we have arbitrage between gox and bitstamp?
21:13	mircea_popescu	gox is kinda dead
21:13	cads	gotcha
21:15	cads	'Transaction Malleability'!?
21:15	asciilifeform	benkay: the "ship to forum sockpuppets" asic ploy << there is much to be learned from carnival / stage magic tradecraft re: scams
21:15	mircea_popescu	carnies. definitely.
21:15	asciilifeform	the 'plant in the audience' recipe, etc.
21:15	mircea_popescu	cads http://trilema.com/2014/mtgox-and-ancient-bitcoin-history-the-straight-dope/
21:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15141 @ 0.00087184 = 13.2005 BTC [-]
21:16	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2013#416417 check me out :D
21:16	ozbot	#bitcoin-assets log
21:17	mircea_popescu	also :
21:17	mircea_popescu	Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen
21:17	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 139 @ 0.0008356 = 0.1161 BTC [+]
21:17	mircea_popescu	http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57618976-83/kickstarter-hacked-user-data-stolen/
21:17	ozbot	Kickstarter hacked, user data stolen | Security & Privacy - CNET News
21:17	Bugpowder	old
21:17	mircea_popescu	lol how old is it ?
21:17	Bugpowder	at least 4 hours
21:17	mircea_popescu	derp.
21:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.00083588 = 0.2508 BTC [+]
21:18	cads	Since when the fuck does bitcoin have fucking transaction fucking MALLEABILITY?!
21:18	Jere_Jones	This url should be spouted here more often: http://assass.headfucking.net/ 'Tis fucking awesome.
21:18	Bugpowder	cads: at least 4 hours
21:18	cads	Wow!
21:18	copumpkin	cads: it's been known since 2011
21:18	mircea_popescu	cads like 2009 dood
21:18	copumpkin	it isn't really all that much of a problem
21:18	copumpkin	if you're aware of it, which it turns out nobody was
21:19	mircea_popescu	who the hell wasn't srsly.
21:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 300 @ 0.000836 = 0.2508 BTC [+]
21:19	copumpkin	all the major exchanges and the "official" bitcoin-qt client :P
21:19	mircea_popescu	i think it was a topic of discussion at least monthly.
21:19	copumpkin	well, they all failed at it in some way or another
21:19	mircea_popescu	in this sense security qualifies.
21:20	copumpkin	anyway, it wasn't a threat of loss of bitcoins
21:20	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 261 @ 0.0008375 = 0.2186 BTC [+]
21:20	copumpkin	unless you layer additional stupidity on top of it
21:20	copumpkin	which mtgox apparently did
21:20	mircea_popescu	or so they say.
21:20	benkay	copumpkin: do you write in public anywhere?
21:20	copumpkin	I tweet occasionally
21:20	copumpkin	why?
21:21	mircea_popescu	because he likes you and would like to get to know you better.
21:21	mircea_popescu	in a more intimate manner.
21:21	cads	secsooally
21:21	mircea_popescu	no homo.
21:21	mircea_popescu	benkay you know he's the asshole who stole my bentley and gave it to a bunch of kids from like poor countries in india or some shit, and in exchange they hacked a bunch of iphones for him
21:22	mircea_popescu	or nokias or whatever it was.
21:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [RENT] 1000 @ 0.0055 = 5.5 BTC
21:22	cads	"While transactions are signed, the signature does not currently cover all the data in a transaction that is hashed to create the transaction hash. "
21:22	cads	Wut.
21:22	mircea_popescu	cause meta.
21:23	BingoBoingo	Doesn't he also keep a bunch of tomatoes prisoner or am I confused.
21:23	mircea_popescu	no that's copineaple.
21:23	mircea_popescu	no relation.
21:23	copumpkin	:)
21:23	benkay	bwaaaaat
21:23	cads	mircea_popescu: I'm going to investigate the excuse don't worry :D
21:23	benkay	anyways, this malleability thing as mentioned above is not really a flaw, cads.
21:23	mircea_popescu	it's a feature!
21:24	benkay	the flaw is in people using the txid as a bookkeeping device which satoshi explicitly warned against iirc
21:24	pankkake	apparently there are easy improvements http://blog.oleganza.com/
21:24	mircea_popescu	like tits, they get cold and flop arouind and your nipples hurt and everything,
21:24	copumpkin	it's not ideal and the devs are trying to adjust it
21:24	mircea_popescu	but they're defo not a flaw.
21:24	mircea_popescu	benkay yeah he did.
21:24	mircea_popescu	course he did because block reorgs iirc.
21:24	benkay	prezactly.
21:25	copumpkin	so, on a more important note
21:25	copumpkin	cloud atlas.
21:25	copumpkin	worth watching or not?
21:25	copumpkin	I like the soundtrack
21:25	cads	who composes?
21:25	mircea_popescu	watch it abd blog about the experience, i never saw it.
21:25	BingoBoingo	Anyways, the problem in Gox's case is they kept leading zeros in their signatures. Everyone else was like STFU that's dumb. Eventually some nodes started correcting this mistake.
21:26	mircea_popescu	^ that'd be acurate.
21:26	mircea_popescu	mtgox was at least 5 times told to stop with the idiocy.
21:26	BingoBoingo	Cutting those zeros changed the txid though.
21:26	cads	copumpkin: You've got me piqued on the soundtrack
21:26	mircea_popescu	but apparently the php lolcat interpreter adds leading 0's to O RLY?/OIC blocks or something
21:27	copumpkin	cads: it's pretty good
21:27	cads	if a soundtrack is good I usually watch the movie
21:27	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Well so far it is at least two mistakes on Gox's part leading zeros and txid as database primary key.
21:28	mircea_popescu	i dun buy it.
21:28	BingoBoingo	Well, then there is the third mistake, scam.
21:29	asciilifeform	re: tx issue: this is reminiscent of microshit's EXE signing. where you can append whatever to the signed turd and it still passes checksum.
21:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 391 @ 0.00043898 = 0.1716 BTC [+] {2}
21:29	BingoBoingo	Mark's face is shaped in such a way, I imagine, he imagines he can just hug away the scam.
21:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 599 @ 0.00043899 = 0.263 BTC [+] {3}
21:31	cads	copumpkin: you're right, this is good
21:32	copumpkin	I'm a big fan of the tune in sonmi-451 meets chang, and the various times it recurs throughout the rest of the soundtrack
21:32	copumpkin	it picks up about halfway through
21:33	Bugpowder	Mark : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stay_Puft_Marshmallow_Man
21:33	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the diference here being of course that you're not expected to run the whole turd
21:33	mircea_popescu	just the signed part.
21:33	Bugpowder	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stay-puft-marshmallow-man.jpg
21:34	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: right. you arrange to have the turd jumped to after sig check.
21:37	mircea_popescu	well yeah in ashell environment. not quite that much flexibility in bitcoin scrupting
21:37	mircea_popescu	one thing i can't for the fucking life of me understand is why on earth has nobody made an actual competing implementation.
21:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [+]
21:37	mircea_popescu	there are > 450964509860954 copy/paste alt coins
21:37	mircea_popescu	yet nobody went "ok, the ideas are quite clear, let's do this then"
21:37	asciilifeform	copy/paste vs. actual thinking.
21:37	mircea_popescu	there are 5k universities proposing they have cs departments, which is a fraud
21:38	asciilifeform	as described by herr mold.
21:38	mircea_popescu	as in a sane world no uni with a cs department could have done anything else in 2013 as a term paper
21:38	Bugpowder	man, gox back down to where it started... what a derp
21:38	mircea_popescu	than "make a bitcoin implementation"
21:38	asciilifeform	http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/08/whats-wrong-with-cs-research.html
21:38	ozbot	Unqualified Reservations: What's wrong with CS research
21:38	mircea_popescu	forget research even you know ?
21:38	benkay	mircea_popescu: it's a goddamn shame that everyone's leaving it to the self-taught hacks
21:38	mircea_popescu	this'd have been anyone's term project if i were teaching.
21:39	mircea_popescu	benkay ikr?
21:39	benkay	mircea_popescu: cs departments are for research. mechanical and ee departments are apparently where you learn to actually weld shit together.
21:39	cads	shame and opportunity
21:39	Bugpowder	How to blow 1000BTC in under 5 minutes.
21:39	mircea_popescu	and i seriously do not understand what a rector must be thinking to not close down their cs department after this
21:39	cads	how fitting
21:39	copumpkin	not sure I'd say it was blown, Bugpowder
21:39	mircea_popescu	"what, you have not implemented bitcoin as a term project ? you're defunded. 100%"
21:39	benkay	yup.
21:40	asciilifeform	can't speak for other unis, the cs dept. i studied in was a vacuum cleaner for slurping up DOD moneys
21:40	mircea_popescu	fucking bs.
21:40	asciilifeform	that is its primary function, with the students as an afterthought (read: source of cheap labour)
21:40	benkay	most us unis i've been to are similarly oriented around hoovering up research + dod monies asciilifeform
21:41	mircea_popescu	we're fortunate to live in a world where nobody has any clear measuring stick to be able to measure exactly how tall the pile of shameful excrement they find themselves under is.
21:41	mircea_popescu	so they can go around pretending like they're things they could never be.
21:41	asciilifeform	perhaps vaccum cleaner is the wrong picture. more of an idiot with mouth open, catching raindrops.
21:41	mircea_popescu	"humanities" "professors" that have no idea what a college is and can not speak latin,
21:41	mircea_popescu	cs professors who failed to have the kids implement bitcoin in 2013
21:42	mircea_popescu	all the unspeakable depth of pitecantropic refuse
21:42	asciilifeform	give it another decade... we implemented 'sed'.
21:42	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform maybe i'm blinded by zeal but seems to me sed is actually harder.
21:42	asciilifeform	'yesterday's nobel prize is tomorrow's homework'
21:42	asciilifeform	sed is arguably harder.
21:42	cads	I'd love to see a haskell or agda implementation
21:42	mircea_popescu	bitcoin once explained by satoshi is not actually hard in any sense
21:42	asciilifeform	and is 'politically' safe.
21:42	mircea_popescu	merely gotta do the work.
21:43	mircea_popescu	which is what cs depts are for.
21:43	asciilifeform	implementing btc would be a little like having the mech eng. students build a working howitzer.
21:43	mircea_popescu	so ?
21:43	benkay	hah
21:43	mircea_popescu	i definitely would.
21:44	asciilifeform	arguably imperative, but we live in bizarroworld
21:44	benkay	more like a potato gun
21:44	mircea_popescu	da fuck mech engineer you are can't build a hovitzer
21:44	benkay	u want shells too sir?
21:44	jayk	hmmm
21:44	asciilifeform	obligatory link to the MIT lamp video!
21:45	mircea_popescu	benkay you don't have to make the shells actually do anything you know ?
21:45	asciilifeform	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ
21:45	ozbot	MIT graduates cannot power a light bulb with a battery. - YouTube
21:45	mircea_popescu	a howitzer can fire blanks on the football field just fine
21:45	asciilifeform	correct.
21:45	benkay	sure but then you're not really putting the barrel through its paces are you?
21:45	mircea_popescu	or for that matter make it fire solid metal ordnance.
21:45	asciilifeform	(i once discovered that my uni used to have a rifle range. gone.)
21:45	mircea_popescu	at a wall or stack of sand bags or w/e
21:45	cads	mircea_popescu: sell some Coq nerds on the importance of implementing a formally verified blockchain algorithm and further specialization to a btc implementation :)
21:45	MisterE_	asciilifeform: is right, education is a business before all esle
21:46	mircea_popescu	cads know any ?
21:46	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Most Land Grants had them back in the day.
21:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00087607 = 12.1774 BTC [+] {2}
21:46	asciilifeform	it's hilarious. they have people 'formally verify' DRM crud.
21:46	asciilifeform	glass bead game.
21:47	mircea_popescu	apparently pitecantropic is not an english word. odd.
21:47	cads	mircea_popescu: just acquaintances on irc.
21:47	mircea_popescu	anyway, reference to the "java man"
21:47	mircea_popescu	cads so send them over.
21:47	asciilifeform	try 'pithecantropic' ?
21:47	mircea_popescu	a ok
21:48	mircea_popescu	pithecanthropus
21:48	cads	oh, key, copumpkin is also a #coq regular
21:48	mircea_popescu	o ya definitely likes the c0q
21:48	copumpkin	cads: we've spoken in all sorts of different places :P
21:49	asciilifeform	re: c0qlovers and proof-of-whatever: a particularly egregious case of glass bead game.
21:49	asciilifeform	(as discussed in a turd of mine, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 and elsewhere)
21:49	benkay	glass bead game?
21:49	asciilifeform	attempts at 'transitioning from the informal to the formal by formal means'.
21:50	cads	asciilifeform: it's always been one great misgiving of mine whenever I read papers on large formally verified software projects
21:50	asciilifeform	(see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390&cpage=1#comment-8475)
21:51	cads	for example UC's Quark verified browser kernel or the NICTA's l4.verified project.
21:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 797 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1976 BTC [+]
21:51	benkay	cads: what kind of factory worker reads about formal verification of large software projects?!
21:54	asciilifeform	the whole 'automated proofs' business is fundamentally turdalicious
21:54	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you mean as a hesse reference ?
21:54	asciilifeform	yes
21:54	cads	I appreciate that we can create a kernel of security properties and then prove it about our access control model, and then build the system on that.
21:54	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 703 @ 0.00024797 = 0.1743 BTC [+]
21:54	asciilifeform	it is an attempt to hide head in the sand, escape from the fact that the only way to guarantee expected function is: actual understanding
21:54	asciilifeform	by actual brains
21:54	benkay	you mean brians
21:55	asciilifeform	and this requires a 'bonfire of the' complexity.
21:55	cads	And I appreciate that this makes it /easier/ to avoid bugs - the only place a bug can now live is in the security properties you prove about your access model.
21:55	cads	And that's the part that hits my stomach with dread.
21:56	mircea_popescu	right
21:56	mircea_popescu	you can now have no bugs except that sort of bugs you'll never find
21:56	cads	Since /those/ bugs are embedded in philosophy
21:56	mircea_popescu	right
21:56	asciilifeform	or something as mundane as the hardware.
21:57	cads	But I'm optimistic since we can study the theory of what should constitute a correct and effective security property
21:58	asciilifeform	the entire field, giving its history and monetary incentives, is a poisonous offering.
		↖
21:58	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 10 @ 0.02579995 = 0.258 BTC [-]
21:59	cads	It does feel like you're concentrating the bugs into a very rare and amazingly lucrative bug class
21:59	assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!
21:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
22:01	asciilifeform	we aren't seeing proof in the mathematical sense. only (apologies to bush the lesser) - 'proofiness.'
22:01	asciilifeform	the idea that bugs are being banished anywhere by this obscurantist crap is nonsense.
22:02	asciilifeform	example, for the thick:
22:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00087836 = 10.2768 BTC [+]
22:03	asciilifeform	'ECC' memory is largely absent from consumer turdware. i wait for the box running your 'proofy' crap to be hit by cosmic ray.
22:03	cads	hmm, the verified software I've read about uses security properties which are proven via a formal proof assistant in a standard logic.
22:03	asciilifeform	suddenly not so verified any more.
22:04	asciilifeform	go ahead, prove anything useful about an x86 box where an arbitrary bit might flip.
22:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 16 @ 0.06899996 = 1.104 BTC [+] {3}
22:05	asciilifeform	(if cosmic rays are insufficient, someone might be so kind as to pump some ionizing strange through your server. or merely turn up the thermostat in the cage. etc.)
22:05	cads	fair enough, then even the most correct formally proven software should expect some faults due to underlying hardware.
22:05	cads	hm
22:05	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06899998 = 0.414 BTC [+] {2}
22:06	mircea_popescu	derp.
22:06	asciilifeform	of course, no need for such shenanigans if the box is already built of 'cooperative' iron.
22:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06999998 = 0.7 BTC [+] {2}
22:08	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform your dream of software that's unauditable by the user is getting closer and closer huh
22:08	asciilifeform	eh, it might as well be already
22:08	cads	asciilifeform: that brings us to study methods of invalidating the security properties by changing aspects of the substrate system that the security properties gloss over or assume by fiat.
22:08	cads	neat
22:09	asciilifeform	garden variety winblows box could busy a thousand auditors for a thousand years.
22:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06999999 = 0.35 BTC [+]
22:12	cads	We can always dream about strong encryption for state machine dynamics.
22:12	cads	Which could give us some padding between the software agent and untrusted underlying hardware.
22:12	asciilifeform	cads: exists (provably not in the general case, but for many particular cases, sure)
22:13	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14385 @ 0.00087519 = 12.5896 BTC [-]
22:13	cads	right, currently it's amazingly inefficient and not general, and I also believe there are unfortunate theoretical limits to the power of any such approach
22:13	assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!
22:13	asciilifeform	problem is (well, depending on how you look), the consumer is to be on the 'wrong end of the barrel' for this one.
22:13	cads	how so?
22:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 68 @ 0.07 = 4.76 BTC [+]
22:14	asciilifeform	cads: look who is working on this, and why. or do i have to draw a picture.
22:14	cads	you may have to excuse my ignorance of the commercial or political side of this work
22:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 36 @ 0.00297 = 0.1069 BTC [+]
22:16	cads	I came up with the idea of encrypted computing when I was thinking how to design an autonomous AI agent that cannot ever have its state vector interrogated or partially simulated.
22:16	asciilifeform	turdware vendors are mightily annoyed that the occasional consumer, 'smarter than average rabbit', pries open and exposes their turdwork.
22:16	mircea_popescu	<cads> neat << good point actually.
22:17	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3900 @ 0.00087843 = 3.4259 BTC [+] {2}
22:17	cads	So that if an adversary has captured the state vector they can only continue to simulate it faithfully
22:17	mircea_popescu	now that'd be interesting.
22:17	mircea_popescu	i'd like a mpex like thatr.
22:17	asciilifeform	cads: i reinvented the concept, as probably just about every maths student has, when first reading about Paillier's Addition and thinking 'what if you glue this to OISC - 'jump if zero' - machine.
22:18	cads	wow, nice
22:18	asciilifeform	no heroic feat here.
22:19	cads	right, I guess to jump from homomorphic encryption to obfuscated computation is a natural one.
22:19	asciilifeform	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paillier_cryptosystem
22:19	ozbot	Paillier cryptosystem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:20	asciilifeform	and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer
22:23	asciilifeform	one neglected aspect of homomorphic turdcraft (let's assume that it were possible and practical in some general-'enough' case! for the sake of argument) is:
22:24	asciilifeform	unless you are carrying out the compilation with paper and pencil,
22:24	asciilifeform	you are forever doomed to trust the mechanism whereby you generated the cryptoturd.
22:24	cads	okay, so in our Paillier OISC we'd use subtract and branch of != 0, or subtract and branch if <= 0.
22:24	asciilifeform	because the result can never be verified.
22:24	asciilifeform	(verified to do what you intended it to.)
22:24	cads	Only with pallier operations
22:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.005498 = 0.2749 BTC [+]
22:26	cads	wait how do we implement the order relation on the ciphertext version of the data
22:26	asciilifeform	cads: not so simple. you can't have the machine actually branch in any obvious sense
22:26	asciilifeform	or an observer could deduce logic
22:27	cads	right that would surely give the game away for most things
22:28	asciilifeform	incidentally
22:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06799997 = 0.136 BTC [-]
22:28	asciilifeform	wiki used to have a page on 'joseki' (not to be confused with the Go players' term)
22:28	Mats_cd03	Complicated technical gibbering, mundane, cryptodongs, etc
22:28	asciilifeform	nsa cryptosystem, circa 1980s. implied to function on this principle.
22:28	asciilifeform	page was zapped some time ago.
22:29	asciilifeform	(it was used in military firmware)
22:30	cads	http://cryptography.wikia.com/wiki/JOSEKI_%28cipher%29
22:30	ozbot	JOSEKI (cipher) - Crypto Wiki
22:30	asciilifeform	something like that
22:30	asciilifeform	if i recall
22:31	asciilifeform	maybe it was just my imagination.
22:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00087767 = 18.7821 BTC [-]
22:33	benkay	http://brooklyn-dentists.com/wp-content/bitcoin-code/emacs-bitcoin.php
22:33	Mats_cd03	Big words followed by math things
22:34	asciilifeform	shannonizer?
22:34	asciilifeform	somebody ought to stoke one with this channel log.
22:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19148 @ 0.00087854 = 16.8223 BTC [+]
22:34	benkay	amen
22:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19099 @ 0.0008787 = 16.7823 BTC [+] {2}
22:36	asciilifeform	and now for something completely different:
22:36	asciilifeform	http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/02/american-exceptionalism.html
22:36	ozbot	ClubOrlov: “American” exceptionalism
22:36	Mats_cd03	i belieb in american exceptionalism
22:36	benkay	Mats_cd03: are you on cocaine?
22:37	Mats_cd03	im high on life nigga
22:37	benkay	hm
22:37	mircea_popescu	lmao! so very different
22:37	benkay	well i bleed american capitalism
22:37	mircea_popescu	;;google trilema exceptionalismul personal
22:37	gribble	No matches found.
22:37	benkay	the old kind
22:37	mircea_popescu	eh gtfo google.
22:37	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2009/exceptionalismul-personal/
22:37	ozbot	Exceptionalismul personal pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
22:37	mircea_popescu	i do not make the mistake of positing it's romanian!
22:38	mircea_popescu	it's just stupiditarian.
22:38	Mats_cd03	american capitalism smells like fast food grease and dick cheese
22:38	Mats_cd03	not recommended for date night
22:39	benkay	these days certainly.
22:39	benkay	once upon a time it smelled like blood and money.
22:39	asciilifeform	if you're exceptionally lucky, it smells like the hangar where howard hughes farted in '72.
22:40	asciilifeform	but if you want a better smell, you'll need a time machine.
22:42	benkay	yeah. people were cool once.
22:42	Mats_cd03	i watched the aviator so yeah i can pretend like i know what youre talking about
22:42	TestingUnoDosTre	lies. when was that?
22:44	benkay	1806-1859.
22:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68300 @ 0.00087502 = 59.7639 BTC [-] {4}
22:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16252 @ 0.00087481 = 14.2174 BTC [-]
22:51	cads	hmm
22:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.002973 = 0.446 BTC [+]
22:52	mircea_popescu	people were cool from circa 1600 to about ww1.
22:53	mircea_popescu	then orwell's bugmen took over.
22:53	benkay	orwell's responsible for modern socialism?
22:53	asciilifeform	mr. o blamed the telegraph
22:53	mircea_popescu	no, but he described the type.
22:53	asciilifeform	(bugmen like central admin.)
22:54	cads	so joseki is a two part encryption decryption function E, D such that in some sense "the encryption algorithm is not the same as, and cannot be deduced from, the decryption algorithm."
22:54	mircea_popescu	makes this observation how the only sort of people who seem to trive in his dystopia are bug-like
22:54	mircea_popescu	short stubbly crab-like in movements etc.
22:55	benkay	;;calc 59.7639 + 14.2174
22:55	gribble	73.9813
22:55	cads	You can decrypt the existing operating system.
22:55	cads	To do that you read the bootstrap key.
22:55	cads	But once doing that, say you want to alter the code. You can't do that.
22:55	cads	For you cannot re-encrypt the code.
22:55	asciilifeform	implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code.
22:56	cads	there's a million ways to subvert either
22:57	cads	just burn some of the traces on the bootstrap chip and suddenly it loads your unencrypted code just fine
22:57	asciilifeform	"On the far side of the room, sitting at a table alone, a small, curiously beetle-like man was drinking a cup of coffee, his little eyes darting suspicious glances from side to side. How easy it was, thought Winston, if you did not look about you, to believe that the physical type set up by the Party as an ideal-tall muscular youths and deep-bosomed maidens, blond-haired, vital, sunburnt, carefree - existed and
		↖
22:57	asciilifeform	even predominated. Actually, so far as he could judge, the majority of people in Airstrip One were small, dark, and ill-favoured. It was curious how that beetle-like type proliferated in the Ministries: little dumpy men, growing stout very early in life, with short legs, swift scuttling movements, and fat inscrutable faces with very small eyes. It was the type that seemed to flourish best under the dominion of
22:57	asciilifeform	the Party."
22:57	asciilifeform	('1984')
22:57	mircea_popescu	ty.
22:57	cads	... assuming you have a scanning tunneling electron microscope lying around.
22:58	mircea_popescu	<asciilifeform> implication is that this achieved something more than one can get by merely hashing & signing code. << fwiw i don't believe it does or could.
22:58	asciilifeform	cads: J. was devised for some unknown, godforsaken 1980s silicon. perhaps it sat the decryptor between the memory bus and cpu proper
22:59	Jere_Jones	How does an exchange that implements stop losses prevent a large order from crashing the market? If a large order comes in and wipes out the orderbook past serveral stop losses, those sells get executed after the large order right? They don't get interwoven with the large order? Interwoven seems harder to do and/or incorrect and/or unethical. That means that a stop loss can't actually
22:59	Jere_Jones	stop a loss if the market is relatively shallow. Am I misunderstanding something?
22:59	mircea_popescu	stop losses are usually offered as a best-effort thing, not as a guarantee
23:00	mircea_popescu	even in serious markets.
23:00	benkay	is there a ranking of purely crypto exchanges by vol?
23:00	Jere_Jones	And they do get executed after the order that dropped the price? Not interwoven?
23:00	mircea_popescu	there's no such thing as "interwoven"
23:01	mircea_popescu	that's why blocks are blocks.
23:01	Jere_Jones	Didn't think so. Thanks.
23:01	mircea_popescu	course, god knows what btc webmasters do.
23:01	mircea_popescu	but if you "interwoven" on nyse the sec will put your head on a pike on columbus ave.
23:01	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: angels/pinhead, etc. one could easily picture something clever (block cipher allowing direct execution of crypted instructions, without an intermediate buffer for mass decrypt) or something foolish.
23:02	Jere_Jones	That sounds less than pleasant.
23:02	asciilifeform	we'll know when an american Mitrohin or Rezun lifts the specs.
23:02	cads	asciilifeform: in that case couldn't we say the same of hashing? Although I admit. Putting the decryptor somewhere in the main flow of the system has panache, and I wouldn't be surprised if a similar approach hashing is a lot less natural.
23:03	benkay	;;calc 74*600
23:03	gribble	44400
23:03	asciilifeform	cads: idea probably was, you'd like to block-cipher the blob, but don't want to send a symmetric key (however contained) into the field.
23:03	cads	right
23:04	asciilifeform	so you want something opposite to 'rsa'
23:04	asciilifeform	(where 'anyone enciphers, only one reads')
23:05	asciilifeform	exercise for alert reader!
23:05	cads	;)
23:05	asciilifeform	deduce a working 'joseki'-like cryptosystem.
23:05	asciilifeform	(undergrad level problem.)
23:05	benkay	dang asciilifeform you're a taskmaster
23:05	asciilifeform	not like this is hard or anything.
23:06	benkay	well hey some of us are unversed. you have depth in it.
23:06	cads	asciilifeform: I'm confused as to the sense in which the encryption algorithm cannot be derived from the encryption algorithm
23:06	asciilifeform	decryption?
23:06	cads	righ
23:07	cads	is this to say the encryption _key_, can not be derived from the decryption key?
23:07	asciilifeform	not so hard.
23:07	asciilifeform	you have turds of a certain number-theoretical variety, that turn into plaintext when subjected to function F. F(turd) = plain. but you don't know F'(plain) = turd.
23:08	cads	typically the decryption key allows us to derive the encryption key via number theoretic properties
23:08	asciilifeform	cads: with some 'hardness assumption' in the way of practically accomplishing this, yes.
23:08	asciilifeform	but one could conceive of F' being the key itself
23:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34563 @ 0.0008694 = 30.0491 BTC [-] {2}
23:09	asciilifeform	bureaucrats probably came in their pants, they hate the chore of key distribution, etc
23:10	cads	oh hey
23:10	cads	anyone wanna see women cumming while reading books?
23:10	cads	like, actual passages of cool literature like clockwork orange, sitting fully dressed at a table, while something undeniable is going on /under/ the table
23:11	asciilifeform	old hat.
23:11	cads	ah, saw it already?
23:11	cads	http://hystericalliterature.com/stoya/
23:12	cads	I thought it was really cute
23:12	cads	I liked the essays too
23:13	cads	I felt a bit too vouyeristic while watching to watch all of them, but it was enjoyable
23:16	mircea_popescu	sooo, anyone know a native chinese speaker ?
23:16	asciilifeform	sure.
23:16	asciilifeform	why
23:17	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29113 @ 0.00086896 = 25.298 BTC [-] {2}
23:17	mircea_popescu	because we have no resident chinese expert.
23:17	mircea_popescu	who ?
23:17	asciilifeform	colleague
23:17	mircea_popescu	so get him to come over!
23:17	asciilifeform	i'll poke him when i visit him on tuesday.
23:19	mircea_popescu	coolness.
23:19	asciilifeform	benkay: under no circumstances should i be confused with an actual expert on crypto
23:19	asciilifeform	but the practical application of the known building blocks is quite trivial.
23:20	asciilifeform	(somewhat less trivial if you want actual security, rather than a passing exam score, however)
23:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 15 @ 0.19376446 = 2.9065 BTC [+]
23:22	cads	anyways - asciilifeform I understand that. Ie, say we have two functions F and G such that G(F(x)) = x and F(x) is in some sense independent of x. Then (F, G) is a basic kind of cryptosystem, where F is the encryption function and G is the decryption function. For us not to be able to derive F from G, G must be infeasible to invert. I believe F can be encryption with a public key (which in this case the designer will keep public),
23:22	cads	and G is decryption with the corresponding private key (which is included on the chip). It's a bit of an inversion of control of the intention of public key systems but it works for our purpose.
23:23	cads	The only detail I am not sure is about the private -> public derivability of the keys.
23:24	cads	I know bitcoin's scheme allows us to derive a public key from the private one, and that this is actually not typical.
23:25	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.00087169 = 4.1841 BTC [+]
23:26	cads	asciilifeform: you say that we want the 'opposite' of rsa (public decrypt, private encrypt), but... this is just the same as giving the public the private key and keeping the public one secret.
23:26	benkay	thanks for that cads. babe and i just watched stoya's. a+
23:26	cads	wasn't it /amazing/?!
23:26	assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!
23:27	benkay	of course the woman's response is "i hate the essay!"
23:27	benkay	wtf not the point
23:27	benkay	maybe the point
23:27	benkay	everything's part of the point i suppose
23:27	cads	I liked stoya's own account
23:28	asciilifeform	cads: nope.
23:28	asciilifeform	having private P,Q you can P*Q and get public.
23:28	asciilifeform	what kind of exercise would this be if the answer involved only this.
23:29	mircea_popescu	benkay stoya, the whore ?!
23:29	benkay	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_ZL8HXbHQo
23:29	ozbot	This Empty Love - InnerPartySystem - YouTube
23:29	mircea_popescu	aok
23:29	cads	mircea_popescu: you must watch this: http://hystericalliterature.com/stoya/
23:30	cads	"Hysterical Literature is a video art series by NYC-based photographer and filmmaker Clayton Cubitt. It explores feminism, mind/body dualism, distraction portraiture, and the contrast between culture and sexuality. (It's also just really fun to watch.) "
23:30	mircea_popescu	http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9fgmrL08p1qdleaio1_500.gif
23:30	mircea_popescu	the other stoya.
23:30	cads	I'm questioning the feminist merit if only because I still enjoyed the work with a very male gaze :D
23:31	benkay	maybe the same stoya?
23:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1191 @ 0.002973 = 3.5408 BTC [+]
23:31	cads	no, absolutely the same stoya
23:32	benkay	mircea_popescu: you're missing out on all sorts of context not at least sampling videos
23:32	mircea_popescu	i'll live
23:32	mircea_popescu	http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbw3j2tj2f1rqgfmbo1_500.gif
23:33	cads	mircea_popescu: the idea is that an unpaid woman sits at a table and opens up a famous literary work she chose, begins to read a key passage, starts having and orgasm, continues trying to read, climaxes, and then closes the book and says "I'm ____ and this has been moby dick"
23:34	mircea_popescu	i'd guess about 35% of adult females can actually orgasm in the situation described.
23:35	mircea_popescu	but! that said orgasm distraction is certanly a fun game.
23:35	cads	Unseen under the table the photographer's lovely assistant is working away with the apparently supernaturally effect hitachi vibrator.
23:35	benkay	!t h rent
23:35	assbot	[HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (1164 shares, 6.40200000 BTC), 7D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (12577 shares, 69.17350000 BTC), 30D: 0.00550000 / 0.0055 / 0.00550000 (32202 shares, 177.11100000 BTC)
23:35	mircea_popescu	even so.
23:35	cads	right
23:35	cads	it takes dedication to do that
23:36	cads	The first volunteer is stoya the porn star
23:36	benkay	btw that mpex trade, like 74 btc?
23:36	benkay	just about a third of the rentalstarter ipo.
23:36	cads	we know she knows how to cum
23:36	asciilifeform	they make remote-controlled instruments for this kind of work.
23:36	mircea_popescu	she fakes it lots of times you know
23:36	cads	but the other volunteers are women that work in the arts
23:36	asciilifeform	wireless.
23:37	cads	one of the women is a museum curator
23:38	asciilifeform	long gone are the days when a bottle of bees was the state of the art.
23:38	cads	and in their essays it's clear they feel they are helping make sexuality a less dirty, less manipulated thing
23:38	mircea_popescu	i wonder if giving these chicks a book and asking them to read is a legit pick-up now.
23:38	benkay	bahaha
23:38	benkay	oh you
23:38	mircea_popescu	"hello"
23:38	mircea_popescu	"hi ?"
23:39	mircea_popescu	"i saw you on the internet. so here's le diable et le bon dieu, read for me."
23:39	cads	ah, the other thing
23:40	cads	despite being arguably non-pornographic (hosted, as it was, on youtube), the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views
23:40	mircea_popescu	that matters.
23:41	cads	mixed reviews from the critics alternately called it an awesome work of feminism and art, or skeptically denounced it as 'porn, not art'.
23:41	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.06941006 = 0.1388 BTC [-]
23:41	asciilifeform	russian sf author / madman viktor pelevin had a piece where, in the Dark Future (tm) all other types of porn vanish, and only this remains
		↖
23:41	asciilifeform	ending up called 'DERP', or 'derivative porn'
23:42	asciilifeform	age of consent raised to 46, so all ordinary porn is forbidden
23:42	asciilifeform	and so what remains is 'porn' with films of the censor's faces
23:42	asciilifeform	viewing the forbidden.
23:42	cads	wait were the faces edited over the actors'
23:43	mircea_popescu	cads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OBlgSz8sSM << 660mn views.
23:43	asciilifeform	people then frequent quasi-illicit Derp viewings.
23:43	mircea_popescu	i could continue but w/e.
23:44	cads	mircea_popescu: Bahaha.
23:44	cads	I'll leave it up to you to decide what type of logical fallacy you made by throwing Charlie Bit My Finger against the work of a singe avant garde fetish photographer. :D
23:45	asciilifeform	cads: in the tale? nope. just censors viewing That Which Is To Be Deleted
23:45	asciilifeform	and grimacing suggestively
23:45	asciilifeform	at least, as i recall.
23:46	mircea_popescu	cads no, you did. "the 9 videos in the series got 20 million views"
23:46	mircea_popescu	i merely showed how that idiocy reduces to the absurd.
23:47	cads	An average of 2 million views per video is an impressive metric for an internet personality.
23:47	mircea_popescu	there's no such thing as a "view" and consequently nohing there to count.
23:47	asciilifeform	recently saw a winblows trojan turd which loaded some unknown porn vid
23:47	mircea_popescu	and hence nothing impressive in it.
23:47	asciilifeform	(primitive 'click fraud')
23:47	cads	mircea_popescu is not impressed, guys
23:48	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.19376446 BTC [+]
23:48	cads	For the agents in an attention economy, those are important metrics.
23:48	mircea_popescu	nono, i'm impressed, deeply, just, there's nothing there to be impressive k ?
23:49	mircea_popescu	there is no such thing as an attention econonmy.
23:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 8 @ 0.06941006 = 0.5553 BTC [-]
23:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 15 @ 0.0694 = 1.041 BTC [-] {2}
23:53	cads	Okay, so lets start at the bottom. The claim there are no youtube views. Youtube clearly provides analytics on the number of visitors to a page. So are we saying these numbers are fabricated by youtube or third part 'view providers? Or that youtube views don't actually record how much attention someone payed to a video, whether they really watched it, etc.
23:53	mircea_popescu	cads i can make a webpage publishing arbitrary numbers.
23:53	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.19376446 = 0.9688 BTC [+]
23:53	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 13 @ 0.0694 = 0.9022 BTC [-]
23:53	mircea_popescu	in fact back in the lycos/infoseek/geocities days most everyone did.
23:53	cads	In the second and first cases I would point out that marketing companies trust view statistics.
23:53	cads	So people pay for views and they're real.
23:53	mircea_popescu	marketing companies do not trust view statisticsa,
23:54	mircea_popescu	they simply use that particular bezzle to defraud whoever's so inclined.
23:54	mircea_popescu	there's nothing particularly wrong with being a fraudster, i guess, until you end up believing your own crap.
23:54	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.19376446 = 0.5813 BTC [+]
23:55	mircea_popescu	all this aside : putting "views" next to a number does not transform the number into a measure
23:55	asciilifeform	cads: pick up one of google's '$100 off' coupons and see for yourself what it is the chumps pay for
23:55	cads	right, we must trust the entity measuring the views and the method of measuring them.
23:55	mircea_popescu	nor are you at liberty to imagine the symbol views denotes whatever definition you may happen to allocate it.
23:55	mircea_popescu	first and foremost we must agree these "views" are a thing.
23:56	mircea_popescu	you can only measure that which is thing.
23:56	cads	okay
23:56	cads	so with multiple servers serving the same content it becomes a nontrivial task to syncronize the correct number, first
23:57	mircea_popescu	all this dovetails neatly, of course, into our earlier kabbalah discussion,
23:57	mircea_popescu	but i would like to add the observation that according to the 1800s crowd, patent medicine was actually useful, actually valuable and actually working.
23:57	asciilifeform	for some reason, i can't help but remember the american moneyed idiot who proclaimed that tv watchers who get up to piss during ads are committing fraud.
23:57	mircea_popescu	and its forbidding a serious abuse of the state power against individual sovereignity
23:57	mircea_popescu	a view which is actulaly getting a slight resurgence these days.
23:58	mircea_popescu	(promoted by interested parties, of course, which is to say scammors)
23:58	asciilifeform	hell, it actually worked - with opium in every bottle
23:58	mircea_popescu	opium provides no health benefits tho
23:58	asciilifeform	arguably a better deal than what today's hucksters are pushing, regardless
23:58	mircea_popescu	perhaps.
23:58	mircea_popescu	very much depends on what you're buying,.
23:59	mircea_popescu	much like say, closer to home, silicone.
23:59	mircea_popescu	you can get excellent chips
23:59	mircea_popescu	or you could get crud.
23:59	asciilifeform	can't resist pointing out that, at least on this side of the atlantic, 'silicone' refers exclusively to the type of rubber sold under that name
23:59	mircea_popescu	now the people who have no idea about electronics regularly buy whatever someone;s telling them to.
23:59	cads	mircea_popescu: at some level I feel you are saying that it absolutely does not matter that people spent an estimated 34 million minutes looking at this single artist's work, if only because we can't trust those estimates at all.
23:59	mircea_popescu	a sorry.

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