#trilema | 2017-04-07

pest - 1d 5h
trilema - 1026d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-04-06 | 2017-04-08 → ↓

00:01	BingoBoingo	"Support our troops" took Dubya approval ratings from toilet to 80%+ Imagine what a war that ended would do!
00:01	mircea_popescu	~nothing ?
00:02	BingoBoingo	Sure, but it would look like something.
00:02	mircea_popescu	more accurately, it'd look like what a thing that looked like something used to look.
00:02	BingoBoingo	Serious onion theory problem, but sure.
00:04	BingoBoingo	"Member when we had a white president who liked our country"
00:05	mircea_popescu	make the country of africa great again!
00:06	BingoBoingo	Rhodesian Pride!
00:06	BingoBoingo	Anyways onion is fine model for the cognitive dissonance possessed by typical USer
00:09	mircea_popescu	meanwhile in good boobjobs, https://68.media.tumblr.com/2888ccf2ba5d9102a019345292a2f603/tumblr_o0tft4FnDu1uvdst4o1_1280.jpg
00:09	BingoBoingo	A+++ surgeon
00:14	mircea_popescu	whereas in "things to brag about", https://68.media.tumblr.com/a89bb384d3e6eda25cc9f4a1d51c73e8/tumblr_nruvdiqHUv1urp005o1_1280.jpg
00:18	deedbot	deeds online
		~ 25 minutes ~
00:44	mircea_popescu	btw, whosoever wants a good dose of mosfilm in english, try "west point story". cagney's blond even.
00:55	asciilifeform	elsewhere: 'the swamp drained trump, and all is back to normal'
		~ 33 minutes ~
01:29	mircea_popescu	http://thehill.com/homenews/house/326479-freedom-caucus-member-fires-back-the-swamp-drained-tru lulz
		↖
		~ 38 minutes ~
02:07	deedbot	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/295DCED54A7E6486B190428C6A3F5EC2D19976AC3AAA238CBB1BC0E86D7D73C8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1561...9013 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.175.48.164 (ssh-rsa key from 89.175.48.164 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
02:07	deedbot	http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/295DCED54A7E6486B190428C6A3F5EC2D19976AC3AAA238CBB1BC0E86D7D73C8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1774...5533 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.175.48.164 (ssh-rsa key from 89.175.48.164 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
		~ 27 minutes ~
02:35	CompanionCube	'An attacker within range may be able to execute arbitrary code on the Wi-Fi chip'
		↖
		~ 4 hours 7 minutes ~
06:42	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Adeedbot%20%22trilema.com&page=8 << ah check it out, soon deedbot will be celebrating 1k trilema articles fed!
		~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
07:51	Framedragger	olook our friend leah resurfaces again: https://libreboot.org/#open-letter-to-the-free-software-community
		↖
07:51	mircea_popescu	did she discover trump's birth certiuficate ?
07:51	Framedragger	bhah she's actually retracting her words so i guess not!
07:51	Framedragger	'i fucked up and also was on drugs'
07:51	Framedragger	ok leah
07:52	Framedragger	!$getarchive https://libreboot.org/#open-letter-to-the-free-software-community
07:52	scriba	Previously archived URL: http://archive.is/bJfLi (this was archived by scriba: yes)
07:52	mircea_popescu	tits for btc -> redemption.
		↖
07:52	Framedragger	:)
		~ 19 minutes ~
08:11	trinque	https://www.rt.com/news/383832-turkey-syria-no-fly-zone/
08:13	mircea_popescu	is this a good thing ?
08:14	trinque	maybe erdogan gassed the poar syrians
08:15	trinque	guy seems like he's gunning for sandfuhrer 2020
08:17	mircea_popescu	im kinda surprised they sat by with the mosul base did ~nothing
08:19	mircea_popescu	a look, they're all "must oust assad".
		~ 51 minutes ~
09:11	Framedragger	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1639226 << fwiw the siphnos cacher requests index stats page every 30min now, + /phuctored and /dupes once per hour (at different times, not simultaneously). so my guess would be google et al. web crawlers :/
09:11	a111	Logged on 2017-04-06 19:00 asciilifeform: in other noose, phuctor stats now ~unloadable
09:12	trinque	simple fix is to crap out a stats page static file at interval.
		↖
09:12	trinque	or we can just wait patiently as phuctor toils for the republic
09:13	Framedragger	yes indeed, however asciilifeform's initial objection (besides other less clear unwillingness) was the requirement for phuctor to show 'live data'. which imho is not necessary.
		↖
09:14	Framedragger	especially as regards aggregated stats (the index stats page) - so what if it lags for up to $interval
09:14	trinque	no such thing, only varying degrees of delayed data
09:15	Framedragger	something something lightspeed
09:16	mircea_popescu	the problem was that db waits for writes to read iirc.
		↖
09:16	Framedragger	current situation is that it does that for every web request..
09:19	mircea_popescu	there is that
09:26	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639653 << correct
09:26	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 13:16 mircea_popescu: the problem was that db waits for writes to read iirc.
09:29	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639649 << i would like to static the whole thing, but currently have nfi how to do that while retaining the 'what are all keys with mod M ?' , 'what are all mods with factor F?' , 'search for string S in userids' etc
09:29	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 13:13 Framedragger: yes indeed, however asciilifeform's initial objection (besides other less clear unwillingness) was the requirement for phuctor to show 'live data'. which imho is not necessary.
09:32	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639647 << in point of fact this is not simple -- right now the thing is wholly reactive -- proggy only runs per request. and is written in a lang having no actual threading...
09:32	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 13:12 trinque: simple fix is to crap out a stats page static file at interval.
09:33	trinque	there's already a function that renders that page...
09:33	mircea_popescu	as in, the www worker ?
09:33	asciilifeform	the use of python for frontend was a mistake. i did it to avoid having to write gpg disasmer from 0, and www liquishit from 0
09:33	asciilifeform	trinque: correct
09:34	asciilifeform	the problem is that there is simply not enough db 'bandwidth'
09:34	asciilifeform	to run it regularly and still be able to do anything else.
09:34	asciilifeform	postgres must die.
09:35	mircea_popescu	try mysql
09:35	asciilifeform	mno.
09:35	mircea_popescu	why!
09:35	*	asciilifeform has tried it in the past.
09:35	mircea_popescu	ah
09:35	asciilifeform	all sqltrons have same fundamental problem.
09:35	mircea_popescu	it DOES read while writing.
09:36	asciilifeform	pg also claims to. the knob did 0.
09:36	mircea_popescu	yes but i know it in fact does from you know, running trilema.
09:36	trinque	man, I've worked on pg databases that did nothing but write and read concurrently while sitting on a few hundred million rows
09:37	asciilifeform	who is writing 1000 writes / sec to trilema ?!
09:37	trinque	the politics of asciilifeform doth seep into the use of thing he doesn't like
09:37	trinque	no shame in that, but it's what that is
09:37	*	mircea_popescu whenever i do maintenances.
09:37	asciilifeform	trinque: one of these days you gotta expand on how you did it
09:38	trinque	successive aggregate calculation tables aside main table
09:38	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: db vacuum is not a sequence of writes for the purpose of subj
09:38	trinque	can even fire the updates inside the db with triggers, so everything is transactionally accurate
09:38	trinque	i.e. counts are always correct
09:39	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, i on occasion do multi-row updates. such as (lolz) recently when i made every entry of the 50k items in article db read the same thing.
09:39	mircea_popescu	these can take minutes, and the site isn't down during, at all.
09:39	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: fwiw i was not able to load trilema while this was taking place.
09:39	asciilifeform	or was that after
09:39	mircea_popescu	pretty sure you weren't able to do it after i fucked it
09:40	asciilifeform	but ues
09:40	asciilifeform	yes
09:40	mircea_popescu	table got marked crashed, so all you could load would be the comments, sorta funny half-trilema
09:40	asciilifeform	formatting disk is fast!11
09:40	mircea_popescu	lel
09:40	asciilifeform	and so is 'set all row to c'
09:40	mircea_popescu	your updates consist of "set a to b" neh ?
09:40	asciilifeform	no, if only
09:41	mircea_popescu	then ?
09:41	mircea_popescu	set a to a*b ?
09:41	asciilifeform	observe how phuctor is structured
09:41	mircea_popescu	yes...
09:42	asciilifeform	new key entered? must find if we know its mods, any of them, already
09:42	asciilifeform	and for that matter, if key is new at all
09:42	mircea_popescu	this is index search not update is it ?
09:43	asciilifeform	and yes this can be done in bursts, as mircea_popescu described a while ago. but still gotta query whole db for mods
09:43	asciilifeform	maybe i misunderstand what means 'update' ?
09:44	trinque	two thoughts, beyond which a look at the actual thing would be needed. 1) queues and workers, always 2) db acts as your queue, schema reflects the stages of work
09:45	trinque	oh and 3) rendering www is a stage of work
09:45	trinque	doing all this in the request/response cycle will kill ya eventually
09:45	mircea_popescu	a db write is either insert or update ; finding out things is usually a select. it ~may~ be worthwhile to separate your reads from the writes, because it is technically possible (thopugh i'd hope unlikely) the db is dumb enough to put write locks in for something like "update x on y" even though it should be "select y if z then update x".
09:46	asciilifeform	^ good idea
09:46	*	asciilifeform puts on list.
09:46	asciilifeform	unfortunately not doable without full rewrite.
09:46	mircea_popescu	this is ~what trinque said except his is more general.
09:48	asciilifeform	and yes trinque is right, it needs multiprocess queues, etc
09:48	asciilifeform	ergo depythonization
09:52	trinque	yar
09:52	trinque	only way to deal with the nonsense that one "must" respond to allcomers "now"
09:52	trinque	on the www
09:52	asciilifeform	another gotcha is that the process that does the actual crunching is written in c and communicates solely via the db. it spends ~3min a day reading, but then ~all day checking 'do we already have this factor? ' writing it, in short bursts. but each of these bursts must show up in rss.
09:52	asciilifeform	it would not do to have them all come out at once
09:53	trinque	could get me a pg connection and I could listen for pg_notify on a trigger of that table
09:54	asciilifeform	what's that do
09:54	asciilifeform	instead of rss?!
09:54	asciilifeform	mno. i refuse to marry sql db !!!
09:54	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform trilema ~delays~ rss, you udnerstasnd me ?
09:54	trinque	k so suffer
09:54	trinque	lol
09:55	trinque	yes, send me the bursts as they happen, don't render the RSS each time
09:55	trinque	from db
09:55	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: trilema doesn't potentially update 100 / day
09:55	mircea_popescu	no, you don't take my meaning.
09:55	mircea_popescu	go right ahead, produce a list of 5k rss items, THEN dole them out slowly.
09:55	asciilifeform	aah
09:55	mircea_popescu	have a rss queue, what.
09:55	asciilifeform	this - yes
09:55	trinque	this is www born nonsense that communication may only run one way, client can't listen for changes
09:55	asciilifeform	but again needs multithreaded proggy.
09:56	asciilifeform	that can actually do things without being prodded.
09:56	asciilifeform	and yes trinque
09:56	asciilifeform	www is fundamentally retarded paradigm
09:57	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639625 << vanished...
09:57	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 05:29 mircea_popescu: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/326479-freedom-caucus-member-fires-back-the-swamp-drained-tru lulz
09:57	trinque	which is why I interact with it through means that do not block as it does
09:57	mircea_popescu	(ftr, at least once in itgs history trilema updated 6.5k times/day
09:58	asciilifeform	the wikilicks dump?
09:58	mircea_popescu	yeh
09:58	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639630 << also vanished?
09:58	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 11:51 Framedragger: olook our friend leah resurfaces again: https://libreboot.org/#open-letter-to-the-free-software-community
09:58	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform re thehill : nah, they are just braindamaged. trilema works by bits, eg, http://trilema.com/2015/a-lunatic-with-a-bloodied-a takes you to article
09:58	mircea_popescu	http://thehill.com/homenews/house/326479-freedom-caucus-member-fires-back-the-swamp-drained-tru does not take you to http://thehill.com/homenews/house/326479-freedom-caucus-member-fires-back-the-swamp-drained-trump
09:58	asciilifeform	aah
09:58	mircea_popescu	because you know, HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY guess.
09:59	mircea_popescu	better do a 404 be sure.
09:59	asciilifeform	lel
10:00	mircea_popescu	typical "republican" "conservative" nonsense mindset.
10:00	Framedragger	asciilifeform: have you tried postgres index-only scans? have you tried materialised views? if not, the "postgres must die" sounds sorta surface-level, imho
10:00	asciilifeform	Framedragger: briefly describe what these do ?
10:01	asciilifeform	do they create risk of data loss ?
10:01	Framedragger	index-only scans allow to search in a table without 'touching', or 'locking' the actual rows (which may be simultaneously written-to, at the same time)
10:01	Framedragger	not afaik. these are to do with reading only. but trinque may chime in
10:01	asciilifeform	do they create chance of reading liquishit ?
10:01	Framedragger	materialised views - ditto regarding reading only
10:02	asciilifeform	what actually happens if you read a row being written
10:02	Framedragger	again, no, and as per ACID, no dirty reads (not a bad thing here)
10:02	Framedragger	hm.
10:02	asciilifeform	so why then is this not standard? why locks exist at all ?!
		↖
10:03	*	Framedragger refreshes self on https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/transaction-iso.html
10:03	Framedragger	obtw which postgres version on phuctor asciilifeform? those two features not available in old versions. i don't remember which ver is in debian stable
10:04	trinque	materialized views are nothing more than a named query which stores its results in a table
10:04	trinque	and which you can refresh at interval
10:04	asciilifeform	a very recent one . but i'll have to get back to you Framedragger re : which
10:04	shinohai	lol Jason Dreyzehner "Head of Design" at buttpay followed me on twitter. Perhaps staring at T&A will be useful in making UI decisions.
10:04	trinque	they are useful for calculating aggregates as I was describing.
10:04	trinque	can cron the "refresh materialized view"
10:04	trinque	at sane interval
10:04	Framedragger	and ^ is effectively a cache of sorts (useful here)
10:05	asciilifeform	trinque: that sounds potentially useful. i'll have to investigate
10:05	trinque	these as queue tables for stages of work are also useful
10:05	asciilifeform	trinque: i don't like state
10:05	trinque	however it may be saner to completely divorce the algorithmic part from sql
10:06	trinque	just fart results into sql for wwwtron
10:06	asciilifeform	and i certainly don't want html in my db wtf
10:06	trinque	nobody said that
10:06	Framedragger	...no, lol, the results are 'cached', you still regen html (but this is computationally trivial neh)
10:07	asciilifeform	aah yeah
10:07	trinque	so here's what relational db was supposed to be for, like bash originally had a 'supposed to be for'
10:08	trinque	it's a goddamned spreadsheet; you're supposed to compute elsewhere and then fart your results in there so somebody managerial can ask it questions
10:08	Framedragger	btw, i once screwed around with memoization in flask. iirc something can be done here as well, asciilifeform (it may be as trivial as adding a decorator before the function which handles GET request)
10:08	trinque	it grew beyond this scope the same reason bash did, or anything else that was originally a user interface
10:08	asciilifeform	Framedragger: i have it already
10:08	Framedragger	ah okok.
10:09	asciilifeform	Framedragger: problem is that the cache gotta expire some time.
10:09	mircea_popescu	trinque> materialized views are nothing more than a named query which stores its results in a table << this is a convenience not a speed-up
10:09	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i think he was proposing it as an ad hoc parallelism
10:09	mircea_popescu	shinohai you're prolly twitter famous.
10:09	trinque	it's a speedup for someone loading the stats page
10:10	trinque	and keeps him from reading the same table he's writing
10:10	trinque	thing's designed for parallelism yes, but of the same exact data in same spot is a big ask
10:10	trinque	move the data around
10:10	Framedragger	mircea_popescu: in materialized view, postgres can persist results of query in table-like form. so it does cache them; hence you can't say it's convenience only.
10:11	Framedragger	(when you query a mat view, data is returned directly from it, without touching the source live table)
10:11	Framedragger	(unless i've misunderstood horribly)
10:11	trinque	no, that is accurate.
10:11	mircea_popescu	might as well just make a proper cache table.
10:12	asciilifeform	trinque: another problem: i thought of having new submissions go to a queue, instead of main db. but! that would nuke the vey valuable 'paste in an unknown pgp key and know ~immediately~' feature.
10:12	mircea_popescu	is it immediate ?
10:12	asciilifeform	it is.
10:12	trinque	which is only a thing because www is 'daddy buy me a pony now!'
10:12	mircea_popescu	ah i always thought i should consult later
10:12	trinque	irc could just tell you when done
10:13	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not the phuctoring!
10:13	asciilifeform	the 'do we know it'
10:13	mircea_popescu	ah ah ah
10:13	asciilifeform	yes.
10:13	mircea_popescu	yes that's very nice.
10:13	mircea_popescu	half the time saves me the wait.
10:13	asciilifeform	aha, nice, but not compatible with queueing.
10:14	trinque	so... lol. the other insanity people commit here is starting n pythons
10:14	asciilifeform	now i can make a separate queuer just for offline subs
10:14	trinque	because GIL or whatever they called the lock
10:14	asciilifeform	but now it means two wholly separate subsystems
10:14	mircea_popescu	trinque what'd you have him do it in, c ?
10:14	trinque	oh I proposed nothing for this fractal hell!
10:14	asciilifeform	i'd luvvv to know in what to redo this
10:14	trinque	haha, but hey sbcl is threaded and hunchentoot exists.
10:14	trinque	works great
10:15	asciilifeform	trinque: you wanna write gpg parser ? that handles all cases ?
10:15	asciilifeform	it dun exist
10:15	asciilifeform	in cl
10:15	asciilifeform	remember, it also has to handle arbitrary binary garbage without misbehaving.
10:16	mircea_popescu	yeah, fuzz tip
10:17	asciilifeform	and yes, originally phuctor front end was to be a cl proggy
10:17	asciilifeform	but turns out, the necessary work is gargantuan.
10:17	asciilifeform	if i had insisted, phuctor would still be a waited-for thing
		↖
10:17	asciilifeform	instead of working-but-complained-about.
10:18	mircea_popescu	open question whether cl would be fast enough. though i know there's some people itching to answer it.
10:18	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: python certainly isn't
10:18	trinque	python's slower, and astonishingly so when threading
10:19	mircea_popescu	there is that.
10:19	mircea_popescu	are there any known documented and running cl-anythings more or less the size phuctor'd be ?
10:19	asciilifeform	orbitz
10:21	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639628 << 'put wifi in everything! only an unteasonable terrorist would refuse!!' -- everyone not-tmsr
10:21	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 06:35 CompanionCube: 'An attacker within range may be able to execute arbitrary code on the Wi-Fi chip'
10:21	asciilifeform	*unreasonable
10:21	trinque	asciilifeform: if stuck on python, which I grant is practical, can't really refuse the customary sins to make it go
10:22	asciilifeform	trinque: i'd much like to get off it
10:23	asciilifeform	which is why fixes that retain it, seem like total waste of time to me ( i put a good deal of time into experimenting with db configs the last time we had this thread. and it made 0 measurable difference, for instance. )
10:23	trinque	I could tune my truck's engine all day and hauling 7000lbs vs 2000lbs will have greater effect
10:23	trinque	but I take your meaning
10:26	trinque	really the right thing to do here is sell a buncha fuckgoats, get asciilifeform rich, hire stable boy
10:26	trinque	not optimize this
10:26	asciilifeform	tbh i dun think anybody is getting rich on fg...
10:26	mircea_popescu	what's the stable boy to do ?
10:27	trinque	things that are cheap that can later be thrown away
10:27	trinque	while more expensive people continue to think long-term
10:28	*	trinque expects to throw away any www he builds by weight 5x over the lifetime
10:28	asciilifeform	aaaaaah looks like i gotta paste in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615434 again
10:28	a111	Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
10:28	trinque	otherwise yes, compromises overrun the thing
10:29	trinque	asciilifeform: I threw away first bot, and second bot, and we sit here with the 3rd
10:29	trinque	did not burn any $mil or megawatt
10:29	asciilifeform	trinque: understand, first thing, and only thing , that a brute labourer would say re phuctor, is 'buy $mil of replication', 'use clouds', etc
10:31	asciilifeform	trinque: your bot, while very spiffy, and necessary, is not an intrinsically heavy item
10:31	trinque	nor the www part of your thing
10:31	asciilifeform	this remains to be seen
10:32	asciilifeform	that is, just how separable the light is from the heavy
10:32	asciilifeform	while retaining what must be retained
10:32	trinque	I'll close with the observation that asciilifeform's "fits in head" serves "build to iterate and throw away" very well.
10:33	asciilifeform	it does.
10:33	asciilifeform	phuctor, for instance, dropped ~half of its length each time i rewrote.
10:34	asciilifeform	imho this is proper.
10:34	trinque	aha
10:38	mircea_popescu	trinque this stable boy notion needs more thinking.
10:40	shinohai	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639637 <<< This is what I said to Steemit evangelist R. Hilarski a few days ago when he accused me of just hating on altcoins. "When you lose all your BTC in scams, at least your wife is kinda hot so she can come by trilema and bare her tits for bits."
10:40	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 11:52 mircea_popescu: tits for btc -> redemption.
10:44	trinque	mircea_popescu: more clearly stated, I do not see a www as part of the algorithm of phuctor. it is one source of input where there could be many, and one output idem. with a clearly defined line between www and phuctor (even allowing for that www may require cached copies of phuctor data to operate properly), this gives you something you can nuke later and replace.
		↖
10:45	trinque	without this separation the idiocies of www will creep in, such as "must respond to user accurately and now"
		↖
10:46	trinque	meanwhile asciilifeform has no business adopting sql perversions as tools of thought; it would be demeaning
10:47	trinque	thus the notion of sticking someone in the www toilet, who manages commands of specific outputs and inputs, and above all keeps the shit in the shithouse
10:48	Framedragger	the 'www side can live on another server, even' degree of separation may be most easily achievable (given lack of resources to rewrite everything as of now) via pg notify / streaming replication. but maybe asciilifeform would insist that this is 'marrying the db'
		↖
10:48	trinque	and when gossipd comes around and asciilifeform can dispense with www entirely, dispense with shithouse and shithouse creature
10:48	trinque	clean break on both
10:49	mircea_popescu	no i don't mean that. i just mean, yes in principl;e doing something with the plebs is not a bad idea ; but the exact what and wherefore coulo use more conteplation.
10:49	trinque	ah k
10:57	Framedragger	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639770 << where possible, new-enough postgres will automagically perform index-only scans. `EXPLAIN ANALYZE your-query-here` output would be interesting to see here
10:57	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 14:02 asciilifeform: so why then is this not standard? why locks exist at all ?!
		~ 31 minutes ~
11:28	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639880 << imho this is a mistake. the presentation of results is not ~cleanly~ separable from the generation, because certain situations (dupes, or the omission of a concordance factor/modulus/key linkage) must be HARD-guaranteed not to happen
11:28	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 14:44 trinque: mircea_popescu: more clearly stated, I do not see a www as part of the algorithm of phuctor. it is one source of input where there could be many, and one output idem. with a clearly defined line between www and phuctor (even allowing for that www may require cached copies of phuctor data to operate properly), this gives you something you can nuke later and replace.
11:29	asciilifeform	and this requires guaranteed consistency. right now i have this guarantee because there is one db, and not a multilevel morass.
11:29	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639881 << i'll say that being able to paste in an unknown base64 pgp key and see a search result NOW, is not negotiable.
11:29	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 14:45 trinque: without this separation the idiocies of www will creep in, such as "must respond to user accurately and now"
11:29	asciilifeform	it is one of the main reasons for phuctor at all.
11:30	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639884 << is it not obvious how creating MORE things that gotta be 'nuked later' is a problem ?
11:30	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 14:48 Framedragger: the 'www side can live on another server, even' degree of separation may be most easily achievable (given lack of resources to rewrite everything as of now) via pg notify / streaming replication. but maybe asciilifeform would insist that this is 'marrying the db'
11:30	asciilifeform	this is how winblowz ended up with bookcase-length api, people.
		↖
11:31	asciilifeform	'haha we can always get rid of $item later', mmmnope.
11:31	asciilifeform	~never happens.
11:37	mircea_popescu	it happens here, we got rid of all sorts of intermediate steps
11:45	Framedragger	asciilifeform: the parallel to "this is how winblowz blew up" breaks, imho, if you consider the splitting-off of www not as an addition, but as actual splitting-off, i.e., the box with phuctor on it may no longer have a www interface (just an option, i know you may be against it). if you picture it that way, it's more about modularisation vs. fixing and inflating a single monolithic thing.
11:45	Framedragger	(granted, these are just nice abstract words.)
11:47	shinohai	The conspiracy theories begin, Trump leaves the runways intact: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8z7QViXYAIrhtc.jpg
11:48	shinohai	Naturally, this was to appease Russia.
11:53	asciilifeform	intact ?! and somebody claims to see this from linked photo ??
11:54	shinohai	yup.
11:54	asciilifeform	Framedragger: now you're talking about having 2 boxes ? do you have an idea what the ~one~ costs ?
11:54	asciilifeform	( ever read the s.nsa broadcast ? )
11:55	shinohai	Also, strikes were designed to create moar refugees which Trump could laugh at and turn away.
11:55	asciilifeform	lol
11:55	asciilifeform	Framedragger: think about how much complexity in the liquishit we call 'modern comp' comes from these attempted modularizations.
11:55	asciilifeform	'oh gotta have clipboard be a separate process'
11:56	asciilifeform	'oh disk cache gotta be separate from kernel'
11:56	Framedragger	asciilifeform: hold on. the idea was to separate reads from writes. having a separate box for www which gets updates from phuctor box, and having pg indices on it for quick search is not resource-intensive. i can cite examples but basically i'm quite certain that a <= 16gb memory box would suffice. phuctor box is 256 gigs yes, but it does so much more.
11:57	asciilifeform	Framedragger: why are you regarding the added complexity (100x what i have now!) as 'free' ?
11:57	Framedragger	of course being able to point to a working prototype would do so much more than arguments. unfortunately that would most likely require the needed modifications on the phuctor box, so a bit of chicken-and-egg.
11:58	asciilifeform	and the work of shepherding 2+ machines.
11:58	asciilifeform	not to mention their bandwidth.
11:58	Framedragger	bandwidth? bandwidth required for phuctor box would be "what's needed to send new rows to this other box".
11:59	Framedragger	bandwidth required for the www box would be ~same as what's currently needed from phuctor.
12:00	asciilifeform	Framedragger: you're talking about replication. replication, generally speaking, doesn't work. certainly not on posgres or any other free db, and certainly not without titanic sweat and inevitable increases in attack surface.
12:00	Framedragger	now, complexity management-wise.. maybe; having same person manage both boxes may not be best idea (and the alternative has its own advantages). but the current "phuctor is down, i don't know why, it's a black box" isn't the greatest example of current setup, either. (this may be a red herring, i'm not sure)
12:01	asciilifeform	understand, Framedragger, it is 600 lines, now.
12:01	Framedragger	well, i'm not that certain, but i am assuming you have more experience there with me. i will only remark that you merely need a read slave, not an actual mirror db which can handle writes and sync state. the syncing would go one way only. (hence the multiple references to pg streaming replication.)
12:02	Framedragger	(again tho, it's very easy to just point finger at features, so i'll gladly shut up)
12:02	asciilifeform	theoretically this can be done on one box. but -- for my enlightenment, Framedragger , describe to me :
12:02	asciilifeform	what happens when a user submits a gpg key ?
12:02	asciilifeform	under your hypothetical system
12:03	asciilifeform	where does it go ?
12:03	asciilifeform	does he IMMEDIATELY get a bookmarkable link based on the key's hash ? that he can come back to next hour, next day, next decade ? if so, how ??
		↖
12:03	asciilifeform	if the 'www db' isn't writable
12:03	Framedragger	asciilifeform: aha, right, that. i literally forgot about that lol. but wait, first we need to clear up the question about whether you want an immediate result to be shown to user upon gpg key submission.
12:03	asciilifeform	aaaahahahahahaha
12:03	Framedragger	are you absolutely unwilling to have a delay there?
12:03	asciilifeform	ABSOLUTELY
12:03	Framedragger	"but whyy"
12:04	asciilifeform	EVERYBODY thinks they're soooo much cleverer than dumb old asciilifeform
		↖
12:04	Framedragger	because gotta serve all the our democracy right here and now?
12:04	asciilifeform	'i can make it BETTER, FASTER, STRONGER!1111'
12:04	asciilifeform	'but does it do the same job ?' 'ummmmm didn't think of it'
12:04	asciilifeform	Framedragger: it ain't about 'demoocracy', it is about actually doing the job
12:05	asciilifeform	the job where it takes you from a base64 gpg key you found on some godforsaken usenet post, to a permanent link in phuctor
12:05	asciilifeform	which, note, replaces, e.g., sks and other heathen idiocies.
		↖
12:06	Framedragger	hold on, hold on. first of all, regarding the permalink: you can have this anyway, because the hash is computed in python anyway (i ~recall the procedure that you once gave me). so,
12:06	Framedragger	you can give permalink to user on the www read-only box.
12:06	asciilifeform	it isn't merely 'hash is computed', it shows if anyone else at any point in history ever had the mods.
12:06	asciilifeform	including the guy who submitted 5 seconds ago.
12:06	asciilifeform	think about this last part.
12:07	asciilifeform	'but asciilifeform ! real roquefort is soooo expensive ! let's replace SOME of it with petro-roquefort'
12:07	asciilifeform	no pasaran.
12:07	Framedragger	yes that's the tricky part. my natural answer to that would be to "drop it, have user be able to come back right away - to a permalink - but results only displayed when the upstream db actually processes and inserts the new entry. (this entry would then get fed into the slave via streaming replication)"
12:07	Framedragger	however, you won't agree to drop it, i take it.
12:08	asciilifeform	aha.
12:08	Framedragger	fuckety fuck
12:09	asciilifeform	what i'ma have to do, eventually, is to replace all of the idiocy. ditch the python, ditch the sql.
12:09	asciilifeform	custom (bitwise, and using mmap) db, with fixed-length fields.
12:09	asciilifeform	and O(1) access.
12:09	asciilifeform	but this won't be happening today.
12:10	CompanionCube	would phuctor be ada-ized?
12:10	asciilifeform	CompanionCube: inevitably
12:10	asciilifeform	it's the only serious long-term pill.
12:11	Framedragger	alright. i will grant you that the end system wouldn't be "oh so elegantly simple", because you would have to have a submission queue (maybe something that trinque had in mind). user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue. under normal loads, the insertion happens ~immediately,
		↖
12:11	Framedragger	and you get your 5 seconds. if the db is loaded, it gets inserted "fast", and user is able to see results upon refresh (because when it gets inserted, update gets immediately sent to slave via trigger rule.)
12:11	asciilifeform	Framedragger: this is quite similar to what already happens.
12:12	asciilifeform	with the difference that the queueing takes place inside pg
12:12	asciilifeform	and so 'looks slow'
12:12	Framedragger	can you not picture this setup with a read-only slave, with a separate "give new key to master" interface (separate so that the replication doesn't become write-write but stays write-read)
12:13	asciilifeform	i can easily picture it . it is how commercial ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-19#1615434 ) db work. google et al. i am specifically uninterested in taking that approach.
12:13	a111	Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
12:13	Framedragger	(again, i did realise that the "oh very simple" angle isn't strong here)
12:13	asciilifeform	because the CORRECT answer is a sane db that isn't written by motherfucking wreckers
12:13	asciilifeform	and isn't slow as molasses.
12:13	asciilifeform	and knows how to read while writing without stepping on own shoelaces.
12:14	asciilifeform	the disk can push 150 MB/sec. if the db cannot do 150 MB/sec, it is retarded and must burn.
12:14	asciilifeform	it is -- quite obviously -- doing work that dun need doing. behind the curtain. 'for your own good.'
12:15	asciilifeform	see the userland fs thread, with the rebalances.
12:15	Framedragger	you are presenting a false dichotomy consisting of {current phuctor; $multi-mil db setup}. you propose to escape it by writing new db as the only way to escape it.
12:15	Framedragger	people are telling you that there is a setup which is better but not multi-mil. it does require planning, etc.
12:16	Framedragger	it was retarded of me to just throw keywords at you saying "that would do it".
12:16	asciilifeform	i am quite aware that 'software industry' today consists of multiple layers of shit sandwitch, each and every one of which consisted of 'great optimization! all you gotta do is add this 5000 lines of code and 40 layer tree of state that gotta be kept consistent'
12:16	asciilifeform	asciilifeform specifically does not do this.
12:17	*	Framedragger quite certain he would get erection from that small c program in phuctor, and that is great
		↖
12:17	asciilifeform	having two databases sounds superficially like a great thing, until you realize that the read-write thing applies just the same to the 'front' one as it does to the existing single.
12:18	asciilifeform	you are STILL stuck writing new submissions to the front.
12:18	asciilifeform	understand, if i paste a gpg key into phuctor, and cannot then ~immediately~ link to it in-chan -- phuctor is broken!!
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12:19	Framedragger	but you no longer reading from the front (in the sense of sql queries), which in db-land is good for performance.
12:19	Framedragger	are*
12:19	asciilifeform	every url fetch reads.
12:19	asciilifeform	and from where, do you think, it reads ?
12:19	Framedragger	it reads from the cached copy, damnit.
12:19	asciilifeform	and the cached copy is updated when ?
12:19	Framedragger	it is updated in ~realtime from the master via streaming replication
12:20	Framedragger	which means, "whenever new row, send it off [without having to execute a new select query etc]"
12:20	asciilifeform	again, every key submission potentially affects multiple rows.
12:21	asciilifeform	because a key breaks down into moduli, fingerprints, and -- potentially -- known factors
12:21	Framedragger	that is fine, and a postgres trigger would mean that any affected row gets sent off. i do understand that new-key-addition is a db-intense process, of course
12:21	asciilifeform	and if ANY of these exist previously, incl. from a submission 5 seconds ago -- they gotta be correctly linked
12:21	asciilifeform	instead of created.
12:23	trinque	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639899 << imma seriously start calling this russing over the issue if we get one more of y'all in here doing that.
12:23	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 15:30 asciilifeform: this is how winblowz ended up with bookcase-length api, people.
12:24	Framedragger	(just so i don't feel like just throwing random verbiage at you, what i mean is something like `CREATE TRIGGER setup_send_update AFTER INSERT OR UPDATE ON phuctor FOR EACH ROW EXECUTE PROCEDURE send_update);` - it wouldn't be hard to try.)
12:24	asciilifeform	which issue trinque
12:24	trinque	my proposal was to put your turdworks in a box
12:24	trinque	not let them seep all through
12:24	asciilifeform	trinque: sorta what Framedragger was discussing, neh
12:24	trinque	you have turdworks by your own decision to use www (which I think is reasonable)
12:24	asciilifeform	i don't presently see them as cleanly cuttable apart
12:24	asciilifeform	while retaining what i see as the non-negotiable features.
12:25	asciilifeform	(immediate linkability of newly-pasted-in gpg key.)
12:25	asciilifeform	this is not even to mention the complexity cost.
12:26	asciilifeform	or the cost of getting a 2nd box with five-nines uptime.
12:28	asciilifeform	and if you think rewriting 600 ln. of python is painful -- try rewriting 60,000. which is what is being proposed : to give asciilifeform 60,000 lines to later inevitably rewrite.
12:28	Framedragger	asciilifeform: fwiw i'd be willing to set up a read slave on 16gb dedi box (siphnos, unmetered connection) for fri, that part is not hard imho. sure, if/when decision would be made to actually expose it to everyone, things could be moved (and maintained by someone else), but this is one way to prototype things.
12:29	Framedragger	rewriting 60000 lines for this.. how does that follow..
12:29	asciilifeform	at one point i thought that giving it to other folx could be a reasonable thing. now i ~definitely~ do not
12:29	asciilifeform	given that i found that various otherwise reasonable people are willing to make all kinds of compromises
12:29	asciilifeform	that i do ~not~ support
12:29	asciilifeform	( to dispense, for instance, with immediate linkability )
12:30	asciilifeform	the apparent willingness of, e.g., Framedragger , to introduce petro-cheese is quite depressing
12:30	*	trinque catches up on thread, 1sec
12:30	Framedragger	if people decide to compromise on things after an agreement was made not to, i mean.. fuck those people
12:30	Framedragger	asciilifeform: yeah i said some stupid things, apologies for depressing you there
12:31	asciilifeform	the performance wins described in this thread by Framedragger and trinque can only come at the cost of 1) massive increase in complexity, and in particularly state 2) loss of immediate linkability of freshly pasted keys.
12:31	asciilifeform	per my current understanding.
12:31	trinque	I find the notion that asciilifeform here is the only guy capable of adhering to own standards lulzy
12:31	trinque	if so dispense with republic, bring on teh stalin
12:31	asciilifeform	trinque: speaking strictly of this particular problem.
12:31	trinque	asciilifeform: you did not seriously cogitate on anything I sad for more than 5 seconds
12:31	trinque	*said
12:31	asciilifeform	i must point out, that i am unwilling to solve it by redefining the problem.
12:31	asciilifeform	'oh you don't need immediate links!'
12:32	trinque	^ find reference for this pls
12:32	asciilifeform	the dual db thing
12:32	asciilifeform	it flows inescapably from it
12:32	trinque	so you're talking to me about Framedragger's whatever, k
12:33	asciilifeform	this in re the dual-db optimization, yes
12:33	asciilifeform	trinque has entirely different algo ?
12:33	Framedragger	(i'll just note that the permalink can be derived on the slave box, and nowhere did i say something contradicting this)
		↖
12:33	trinque	I refuse to retype it
12:33	asciilifeform	trinque: i'ma reread the trinque lines from log.
12:33	asciilifeform	see if missed something.
12:34	asciilifeform	but meanwhile i also must address the 'stable boy' thing
12:34	asciilifeform	imho to even suggest such a thing, betrays a very serious misunderstanding of the concept. dumb humans are in every respect an inferior version of the machine. the only thing more agonizing than programming comp, is programming dumb humans.
		↖
12:35	asciilifeform	i do not need 'stable boy' for anything. there is no conceivable room, imho, for any such thing in any of my systems.
12:35	trinque	I'm not defending that because it's not what I said.
12:35	asciilifeform	maybe i misunderstood the idea ? what was meant ?
12:35	trinque	you conflate the paper delivery kid with the printing works and the writers and, and, at your own design
12:36	asciilifeform	this presupposes that the task can be cut.
12:36	asciilifeform	into 'paperboy' and 'writer'.
12:36	asciilifeform	maybe -- could. but i do not see how it can be done without losing something important.
12:37	asciilifeform	and yes, if you were to throw out the realtime query ability, you could run phuctor as a 'newspaper'.
12:37	asciilifeform	even, hell, distribute printed edition, like telephone book.
12:37	asciilifeform	but that ain't a solution imho.
12:37	asciilifeform	it's a petrocheese.
12:38	asciilifeform	and a ~very~ serious, imho, surrender. 'oh, this thing that you could do whenever you wanted in 2013? can't do it no moar.'
12:39	Framedragger	last note before i fuck off: the "user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue" + "all inserted + updated rows get sent back to slave via streaming replication and pg trigger" doesn't look like petrocheese to me. is all.
12:39	asciilifeform	Framedragger: it means that the user doesn't immediately learn the 'do we know this key?' answer.
12:39	asciilifeform	srsly.
12:39	asciilifeform	not hard concept.
12:39	trinque	the fuck is hard about whether a unique constraint bumped into something
12:40	asciilifeform	trinque: expand plox
12:41	trinque	you have a keys table, factors table, factors has a unique constraint on value column of factors, there is a join table called key_factor which joins key and factor
12:42	asciilifeform	factors get created by the werker process (in c, and unable to do anything whatsoever other than to search for whether a particular factor already exists)
12:42	asciilifeform	do to the db, i mean.
12:43	asciilifeform	it handles 3 cases : new factor of old modulus that had some known factors; new factor of modulus that had no known factors; old factor of modulus that had some known factors.
12:45	asciilifeform	trinque: what happens if a unique constraint is violated ? afaik -- query eggogs
12:45	asciilifeform	is this in point of fact any faster than running a search and ensuring that there is no eggog query submitted ?
12:46	trinque	well one sec, so you're trying to establish relationship between keys and factors in the db, yes?
12:46	asciilifeform	right
12:47	trinque	the "unique" is just an index which yes eggogs if insert happens and is already present. the eggog is just a matter of how do you want to find out about this
12:47	jurov	coinbr public announcement: there are some stuck orders, and it came at worst possible time. During the weekend I should be able to fix.
12:48	trinque	can do also: select exists(select 1 from factors where value = ?);
12:48	trinque	where value is indexed
12:48	trinque	I'm of course shooting in the dark as to what happens when in what you have.
12:48	asciilifeform	trinque: can i , purely using sql query, force it to not attempt write ( and -- importantly -- to take no locks ! ) if an item already exists ?
		↖
12:49	trinque	insert into factors (val) values (3) where not exists (select 1 from factors where value = 3);
		↖
12:49	trinque	or thereabouts
12:51	asciilifeform	thing is, it also has to update the respective mod's factors indices array
12:51	asciilifeform	( a factor belongs to ~one or more~ mods )
12:51	asciilifeform	it can potentially belong to 10,000,001 mods.
12:52	asciilifeform	for some of whom -- we may already know it, and have it in the indices
12:52	trinque	the insert statement can return its id to a calling update statement
12:52	trinque	one sec.
12:53	*	asciilifeform dusts off notebook, listens to trinque
12:55	trinque	array type in db or join table?
12:55	asciilifeform	array
12:55	asciilifeform	and hey iirc i posted entire db (11 GB or so!) here...
12:55	trinque	hm, shit I missed.
12:56	trinque	know mod IDs to update at this point?
12:57	asciilifeform	which point
13:00	trinque	does this query look up the mod IDs to append their factor arrays, or does your worker already know those
13:00	asciilifeform	knows
13:04	trinque	asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XFgif/?raw=true
13:06	asciilifeform	trinque: this looks like it does exactly same thing as my current routine
13:08	trinque	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640077 << was direct response to this
13:08	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:48 asciilifeform: trinque: can i , purely using sql query, force it to not attempt write ( and -- importantly -- to take no locks ! ) if an item already exists ?
13:10	asciilifeform	aah
13:10	asciilifeform	i'ma have to do some rtfm, to figure out how trinque's snippet worx.
13:11	trinque	alrighty
13:12	asciilifeform	ty for taking the sweat to puzzle over this, trinque .
13:13	trinque	any time
13:18	shinohai	bn
13:22	danielpbarron	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639551 << why didn't this work?
13:22	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 03:19 danielpbarron: !!deed http://danielpbarron.com/obsd55-cd1.iso.tar.gz.txt.asc
13:26	trinque	danielpbarron: let ya know
13:27	danielpbarron	file is 682M -- maybe that's too big?
		↖
13:27	trinque	got 10s of gigs over there free, nah
13:27	trinque	mod6 did some pretty big ones
13:27	danielpbarron	i was voiced obviously, but maybe deedbot had reconnected since then, and didn't see me as authed anymore?
13:27	shinohai	I was gonna say, all those trb artifacts were huge
13:30	danielpbarron	on a related note, which openbsd cds are specifically wanted? i did 5.5 cd1 because i have that pack opened already, and because the more useful cd2 (containing amd64) got damaged when i tried to remove it from one of my iMac G3s that wouldn't spit it back out (it also has ppc -- probably the arch of interest)
13:30	trinque	when we get it to work, all, far as I'm concerned
13:31	danielpbarron	i can do an unboxing video or something. i have 5.5 through 5.8 in original sealed packaging
		↖
13:31	danielpbarron	i even have the missprint 5.8 and the replacement cd they sent afterwards
13:33	danielpbarron	will be interesting to see if my unopened 5.5 cd1 is the same bitwise as the one in the above mentioned deed
13:33	danielpbarron	got them from different stores even
13:46	trinque	I'm getting on the previous batch of deeds that I have insufficient funds, which is bullshit.
13:46	trinque	so, gotta untwist that
13:47	shinohai	deedbot got gabriel_ladell'ed
13:47	trinque	then also danielpbarron this project with ISOs might take rewriting the downloader, will have to look at it
13:47	trinque	shinohai: loool
13:47	trinque	danielpbarron: lets work on getting those in next week
13:48	danielpbarron	ok
13:48	danielpbarron	also please let me know if my format was right. I emulated mod6's thing but maybe there's a better way to do it with iso
13:49	danielpbarron	tar.gz only compressed it from ~708 to 682
13:49	trinque	curl $url \| head -n 30 looks fine
13:50	danielpbarron	and is it redundant to include sha512 on both the tar.gz and the iso?
13:51	trinque	danielpbarron: seems ok, maybe my tar or gzip has the HIV
13:51	danielpbarron	yeh
13:56	shinohai	!!up eulenspiegel
13:56	deedbot	eulenspiegel voiced for 30 minutes.
13:59	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639984 << python
13:59	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:17 Framedragger quite certain he would get erection from that small c program in phuctor, and that is great
13:59	mircea_popescu	eulenspiegel hehe not bad
14:00	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639987 << not exactly broken, but certainly degraded.
14:00	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:18 asciilifeform: understand, if i paste a gpg key into phuctor, and cannot then ~immediately~ link to it in-chan -- phuctor is broken!!
14:04	jhvh1	eulenspiegel, who is your Daddy and what does he do?
14:06	*	mircea_popescu is enjoying this log.
14:08	Framedragger	mircea_popescu: i thought one of the parts was a c proggy. quite certain it is, asciilifeform mentioned it multiple times. python is the web backend afaik
		↖
14:08	mircea_popescu	ah yeah there is a part
14:09	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640040 << could in principle derive it and "nothing here" until backend figures out wtf is going on i guess.
14:09	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:33 Framedragger: (i'll just note that the permalink can be derived on the slave box, and nowhere did i say something contradicting this)
14:10	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640045 << this is a matter of personal preference. i favour humanses.
		↖
14:10	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:34 asciilifeform: imho to even suggest such a thing, betrays a very serious misunderstanding of the concept. dumb humans are in every respect an inferior version of the machine. the only thing more agonizing than programming comp, is programming dumb humans.
14:12	Framedragger	mircea_popescu: re "nothing here" the idea would be that upon user submitting gpg key, page reloads instantly (vs. near-instant page load on current phuctor - reloads only after key inserted into db), shows permalink and "waiting for insertion" msg; html could have property to auto refresh every second until master responds with any links to other keys. but i understand asciilifeform's reasons against this
14:13	mircea_popescu	you may snag some decidability issues (depending exactly how unique id is generated -- remember keys are not unique in this sense, kinda the point of phuctor)\
14:15	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640141 << Framedragger is correct, there is a wwwtronic (and rfc4880-parsing) front end, that is in python; and a wholly separate werker that actually does the number crunching, in c.
14:15	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 18:08 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i thought one of the parts was a c proggy. quite certain it is, asciilifeform mentioned it multiple times. python is the web backend afaik
14:15	mircea_popescu	yeh.
14:17	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640145 << folx who are good at usefully programming humanses are called mircea_popescus and we here, luckily -- do have one!!
14:17	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 18:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640045 << this is a matter of personal preference. i favour humanses.
14:17	mircea_popescu	unrelatedly, http://trilema.com/2017/the-lordship-list-fourth-year/ << last call for this, prolly getting done weekend/early next
14:17	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: looks good imho
14:17	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640108 << i wonder if we hit some hidden koch limit
14:17	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 17:27 danielpbarron: file is 682M -- maybe that's too big?
14:17	asciilifeform	( wouldn't be the first time )
14:19	mircea_popescu	it's important to de-equivocate dumb ; there's two kinds of machine that may be casually referred to as dumb : one that is very slow (eg, z80) / one that is very demanding on the programmer (eg, windows). good programmer wouldn't really call z80 dumb, bad programmer wouldn't really call windows dumb. this directly translates to humans, there's a kind of dumb the incompetent identify mostly disjunct from the kind of dumb the c
14:19	mircea_popescu	ompetent identify.
14:20	asciilifeform	slow-but-guaranteed-correct-answer is not dumb at all.
14:21	asciilifeform	( could be impractical -- we all die before answer is emitted -- but that ain't 'dumb' )
14:22	asciilifeform	and yes i'm familiar with 'prussian' model of command, where 'a good soldier follows directions, doesn't sit and think' etc.
14:22	asciilifeform	it has a point.
14:22	asciilifeform	but imho the logical end of it is proper mechanization.
14:22	mircea_popescu	it all depends.
14:24	mircea_popescu	no, let's also de-equivocate think. there's two kinds of think, one's a forge/reflow/examination of trees resulting in analytical consumption of inputs with actionable outputs guaranteed ; the other is a neurotic behaviour perhaps best described as spinning, whereby specific emotional triggers / detriggers are visited in succession. the prussian model was never concerned with the former in any sense, but merely aimed to elimi
		↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖
14:24	mircea_popescu	nate the latter ; under the (broadly correct) assumption that a quiet head works and a loud one doesn't. this isn't so different from, eg, buddhism.
14:25	mircea_popescu	as a general rule, people who can't produce genus/difference definitions for all the symbols in their own output are better off not thinking yet, as what they think thinking is isn't.
		↖
14:25	mircea_popescu	to go back to the machine model : until you're running symbolix, don't pretend like you're computing.
14:31	mircea_popescu	and to link it to blogging : the point of blogging (daily!) is that it forces an easy and painless transition from type 2 to type 1 in the heads of the practitioners. there's no promise as to the rate of conversion, but then again that's the best you can get for painless.
14:33	asciilifeform	this is reminiscent of marksmanship training, where trainee fights his idiot reflexes -- overaiming, oversqueezing
14:33	*	Framedragger builds hasty internal map of 'mp type 1 is kahneman type 2, mp type 2 is kahneman type 1'..
14:33	mircea_popescu	quite.
14:33	asciilifeform	and, from what i read -- of pilotage school also
14:33	mircea_popescu	which is why prussians came up with it. fought a helluva lot of recruit idiocy to arrive to the concept.
14:33	asciilifeform	( according to the b00k, most folx die in airplane because of ~thinking~ )
14:33	mircea_popescu	Framedragger works.
14:34	mircea_popescu	if you're wondering, mp doesn't use the reference because the introduction de novo is a paragraph, the discussion of differentiation is a book.
14:36	Framedragger	yeah this is nicely self-contained
14:36	mircea_popescu	moreover wtf was he doing he sorted them backwards!
14:37	mircea_popescu	SORTING is the most important activity of the human brain. and you should see how much trouble well experienced slavegirls encounter when their words are interpreted on a first-priority basis.
14:37	mircea_popescu	"you couldn't have meant that because if you did mean it you'd have lead with it."
14:37	Framedragger	well historically in terms of planet timespan, type 1 got our asses to here..
14:37	mircea_popescu	so ?
14:37	Framedragger	yeah i see.
14:37	mircea_popescu	you propose we also sort planets with earth in center and main sequence stars from the sun onwards ?
14:38	Framedragger	also just to note, (obvs) type 1 (mp-type 2) has its merits and is important. but yeah i got your point
14:38	mircea_popescu	expand on these merits when you will.
14:39	Framedragger	ok, shall try later on, deferring for now.
14:40	Framedragger	but you don't see merits of heuristics and biases in humans?
14:40	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform often happens, which is why people insist they follow manual and procedure, which is what opens the whole thing up to mp going http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-24#1250375
14:40	a111	Logged on 2015-08-24 18:01 mircea_popescu: previous flight lost an engine foil, concorde ran it over, it cut a wheel, wheel exploded, large fragment of tyre hit underwing, shockwave broke a fuel tanker, fuel gushed out and caught, engineer cut the engine next, at which point they had 2km worth of runway left and needed 3 to abort.
14:40	mircea_popescu	Framedragger neither of those fall under mp1.
14:41	Framedragger	they are mp2, the one with lower ordinal, and my point was that it's still hella useful. can you employ the methodical and analytical mp1 when you touch hand on hot stove? no time to route through brain.
14:41	hanbot	!~ticker
14:41	jhvh1	hanbot: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker \| Best bid: 1193.1, Best ask: 1193.6, Bid-ask spread: 0.50000, Last trade: 1193.5, 24 hour volume: 26474.85631301, 24 hour low: 1176.7, 24 hour high: 1206.4, 24 hour vwap: None
14:42	mircea_popescu	Framedragger reflexes are not a proper subject of this discussion, seeing how we're discussing "thinking" as in, brain phenomena.
14:42	Framedragger	(but i'm probably conflating things too much, maybe you'd call such reactions something else)
14:42	mircea_popescu	i would.
14:42	Framedragger	kk. yeah i won't argue further without doing some decent mp1 thought here :)
14:43	mircea_popescu	anyway. heuristics are not involved in watching daytime drama, which is what the type 2 described above is.
14:43	trinque	comes from the spine doesn't it, or even more locally
14:43	mircea_popescu	all those shots of people both facing the camera grimacing ? 18month old baby fare.
14:45	mircea_popescu	trinque yeah, a proper reflex closes in the spine. there's opf course conditioned reflexes which close in the "brain", but not a very conscious part thereof afawk
14:46	mircea_popescu	it's iffy, human body comes out of the hackpile, inc. labs
14:47	Framedragger	i wonder how you'd categorise the 'affect heuristic' as kahneman et al. call it.; i.e., when you make decision with at least partial influence of current emotion. it's very fast (thereby falls under kahneman's type 1). ridiculous scenario where it's useful: i'm chased by tiger, see two paths in woods, one has sign 'DANGER' in red, i don't have time to even parse word without making decision,
14:47	Framedragger	i just decide to go with the other path.
14:47	Framedragger	horrible primitive heuristic, but useful.
14:47	mircea_popescu	i would characterise it as "they got confused on their own terminology and backported orphan chains into the story"
14:47	Framedragger	(probably bad example.)
14:47	Framedragger	:)
14:47	Framedragger	yeah i can see that
14:48	mircea_popescu	transparently, screamingly a case of "now that we got something, let's let church and state back in". hurr.
14:58	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: re rocket attack : 'Российское военное ведомство сообщило, что были уничтожены склад, учебный корпус, столовая, шесть находившихся в ремонтных ангарах самолетов МиГ-23 и радиолокационная станция.' << not just asphalt, apparently
14:58	mircea_popescu	aha
14:59	mircea_popescu	well, 100mn in tomahawks just about worth 100mn in migs.
14:59	mircea_popescu	fair deal.
15:01	asciilifeform	https://archive.is/PH9hf << ruin pics
15:04	asciilifeform	ru pulled out of mutual air warning agreement.
15:04	mircea_popescu	yeah things are warming up a little.
15:06	asciilifeform	sam rockets, it was proclaimed, are nao fair game.
15:10	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: in other delectable memoryholes, https://archive.is/kRRmh
15:10	asciilifeform	^ 'daily mail' deletes 2013 article re obummer's plan for false flag gas attack in syria.
15:11	mircea_popescu	aww
		~ 18 minutes ~
15:29	asciilifeform	in other 'run moar winblowz' noose, https://wikileaks.org/vault7/#Grasshopper
15:30	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639939 << eh relax you.
15:30	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:04 asciilifeform: EVERYBODY thinks they're soooo much cleverer than dumb old asciilifeform
15:34	ben_vulpes	https://staltz.com/an-off-grid-social-network.html and https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/ , if anyone's interested in piles of chairs anymore
15:37	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: here's an even worse, https://mastodon.social
		↖
15:37	asciilifeform	i asked the fella who sent me the link, 'how does this beat irc?' and answered, 'but it has LOGS!'
15:37	ben_vulpes	jazz hands
15:38	asciilifeform	there is pretty clear effort being expended to 'heathenize' gossipd.
15:38	mircea_popescu	kek
15:39	asciilifeform	( in the minds of the perpetrators, probably the operative historical example is hurd )
15:39	mircea_popescu	really, logs ?
15:39	asciilifeform	logs.
15:39	ben_vulpes	500 characters per post!
15:39	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639945 >> well no, sks etc are "come back later and see"
15:39	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:05 asciilifeform: which, note, replaces, e.g., sks and other heathen idiocies.
15:39	ben_vulpes	could possibly expose some tiny fraction of user base' actual literacy skills
15:40	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes i find it's very important to establish aforehand what each barbie doll will wear, do or say at the dollhouse teaparty.
15:40	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: sks does in fact find a key immediately if such is known.
15:40	mircea_popescu	500 characters, brainstorming meeting!
15:40	asciilifeform	or at least did once.
15:40	mircea_popescu	yes, but not gives you link if not known
15:40	asciilifeform	aaah yea
15:41	ben_vulpes	there is also 'discord'
15:41	mircea_popescu	dis cord or dat cord ?
15:41	ben_vulpes	no i snipped dat cord
15:41	asciilifeform	'Scuttlebutt is a decent(ralised) secure gossip platform.'
15:41	asciilifeform	didjaknow.
15:42	mircea_popescu	oh, wordplay!
15:42	mircea_popescu	i find wordplay a fine substitute for competent engineering. it betrays such a wordliness in the cunning linguist responsible.
15:42	asciilifeform	'Other Projects ... Ethereum ... Zerocoin ... MaidSafe .. Solid ' didjaalsoknow.
15:43	asciilifeform	tardanoization, ever the favourite idiot gambit.
15:44	asciilifeform	server-process.js << lol
15:45	asciilifeform	looks like we can all go home and eat nagant folx!11111 a hero has risen , and written gossipd in gendercommitlang!11111
15:46	ben_vulpes	'a hero' can an hero
15:46	mircea_popescu	lel
15:48	ben_vulpes	while we're surveying and lest anyone call us princeton, there is also http://matrix.org/
15:49	asciilifeform	'Matrix provides state of the art end-to-end encryption in beta using the Olm and Megolm cryptographic ratchets, and ensuring that only explicitly authorized devices can participate in a conversation. Based on the Double Ratchet Algorithm popularised by Signal...'
15:49	asciilifeform	do i have to read this ?
15:49	phf	i was excited about scuttlebutt for couple of minutes. usually hacks that come out of "digital nomad" circles are at least worth looking at since they have a lot of uncommon requirements built in (must work over 14.4 dialup, etc.). until i realized it's written in javascript by a hacker with "200 packages in npm"
15:49	asciilifeform	phf: all of the linked examples thus far, fit this pattern
15:50	ben_vulpes	wake me up when they work over shortwave
15:51	asciilifeform	lol.
15:51	phf	ben_vulpes: that's easy, someone always adds a shortwave bridge.
15:51	asciilifeform	gendercommits propagate instantaneously , ben_vulpes
15:51	asciilifeform	telepathically.
15:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform nope
15:51	ben_vulpes	ftl egalitarianism!
15:53	asciilifeform	'developed by Trevor Perrin and Moxie Marlinspike in 2013'
		↖
15:53	mircea_popescu	lel k
15:53	phf	it's hard to push anything interesting over shortwave though, unless you're prepared to do pirate broadcasting, because of crypto. can't broadcast encrypted stuff
15:54	mircea_popescu	"we have a lot of 3 people we keep recycling into stuff"
15:54	mircea_popescu	phf lol rly ?
15:54	asciilifeform	phf: naturally pirate, and frequency hop pattern exchanged cryptographically
15:55	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: aha, Official amateur radio international treaty forbids crypto (and... music)
15:55	phf	you still have good old "fox hunt" though
15:55	mircea_popescu	"everything must be incompatible with fiat legal/political systems" is a fundamental requirement of republican work.
15:55	mircea_popescu	if it "obeys the law" i pointedly don't want it, and FOR THAT REASON.
15:55	asciilifeform	phf: fox hunt when transmitter walks from dc to daylight is a difficult proposition, unless you're in near field (inductive) range already
15:55	mircea_popescu	and this includes "standards".
15:56	asciilifeform	phf: likewise when it operates in msec bursts
15:56	asciilifeform	(gru knew this simple fact in 1950s. don't morse by hand, morse with paper tape rolled by clockwork, over in 1s or so. apparatus fit in suitcase.)
15:57	phf	well, they didn't print this simple fact in "young electronic" so i wouldn't know, i like the idea of msec bursts though
15:57	asciilifeform	ideally ( and this was in the gps jammer thread ) your transmitter won't be a point source, either -- but a chorus of ~synchronized~ transmitters far apart, in polygonal pattern
15:58	mircea_popescu	the idea of getting signal picked up/repeated by the old "item attached to someone else's car" is the golden ticket.
15:58	mircea_popescu	get a network of these thick enough in urban setting, an' farewell to arms.
15:59	mircea_popescu	eminently the sort of thing resisting civillian population can do with little risk to disrupt obama-gestapo.
16:04	asciilifeform	incidentally, esp8266 has an analogue-in
16:04	phf	i'm weary of things that require Wasp lifestyle though, can be done, good to be able to do it, but it's not something you can bootstrap from normal state
16:04	asciilifeform	makes an ok walkie-talkie
16:04	BingoBoingo	<jurov> coinbr public announcement: there are some stuck orders, and it came at worst possible time. During the weekend I should be able to fix. << Have some thank you cake https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bd/cd/db/bdcddbf71f1966610be20506b082eb61.jpg
16:04	asciilifeform	phf: aha, if civilian traffic stops -- goodbye to the car transmitters
16:04	asciilifeform	but they can be deniably planted elsewhere (e.g. roofs)
16:05	mircea_popescu	phf what's "wasp lifestyle" ? white protestant ?!
16:05	ben_vulpes	fictional saboteur story
16:05	phf	you get sloppy with opsec and that 3 people team that's been drawing paycheck on your assignment for the past 4 years is going to close in
16:05	asciilifeform	aah ~that~ wasp
16:05	mircea_popescu	and get shot in the face.
16:06	mircea_popescu	what, there's a rule pigs don't bleed ?
16:06	Framedragger	btw supposedly there's a new iteration/model of esp8266, anyone has an opinion?
16:06	asciilifeform	Framedragger: i never found a bulk souce of the ~old~ one
16:06	Framedragger	ah the english word is 'successor', forgot
16:06	Framedragger	sad!
16:07	asciilifeform	Framedragger: as it is i have here a crate of 20 modulized ones. but strictly for experiments.
16:07	Framedragger	(for logs, keyword of new one is esp32)
16:07	asciilifeform	this is quite different from finding a ~bulk~ source
16:07	Framedragger	yeah i understand :/
16:07	trinque	english though impoverished has "iteration" too
16:07	asciilifeform	i.e. one where 1) they cost less than the retail model 2) linearly less with quantity
16:07	asciilifeform	3) not attached to pcb already
16:09	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: on contemplation, cars may not be a very good hiding place, they ( esp in usa ) routinely move through chokepoints - toll archs, and these are already equipped with camera and radio receivers
16:09	asciilifeform	would not be so difficult for enemy to determine who has one.
16:09	mircea_popescu	was $example
16:10	asciilifeform	right
16:10	mircea_popescu	let enemy invest in that, move to something else...
16:13	ben_vulpes	comms net while attractive is complex
16:13	ben_vulpes	one could rack up quite a bill just splicing cell jammers into mobile power busses, eg cars
16:16	mircea_popescu	one could also rack up quite a bill paying the wife for blowjobs.
16:16	ben_vulpes	bill /for the state/
16:16	ben_vulpes	customers complain about random outages, att/verizon/$provider wastes a pile of money doing infrastructure testing and then calls in fcc vans for triangulation rolls
16:17	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639964 << one of the (~the~ ?) advantage of tmsr work for intelligent folk is that there isn't a braindamaged/choiceless manager in the loop going "i know it's stupid but it must be done".
		↖ ↖
16:17	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:11 Framedragger: alright. i will grant you that the end system wouldn't be "oh so elegantly simple", because you would have to have a submission queue (maybe something that trinque had in mind). user submits key; gets permalink (immediately); meanwhile key gets sent to master (immediately), and master puts it into "to be inserted" queue. under normal loads, the insertion happens ~immediately,
16:18	mircea_popescu	the immediate (not even spoken, because they don't want to say it because they don't want it discussed because they want it to be forever true) retort from the empire'd be that "well, this doesn't work". except... it does work.
		~ 15 minutes ~
16:33	ben_vulpes	anyone ever see a trb/buildroot run hang at `checking for gcc float-conversion bug...` ?
16:33	asciilifeform	not i
16:34	asciilifeform	what kind of box ? which gcc ?
16:34	ben_vulpes	powerpc, don't recall which gcc
16:34	asciilifeform	thank the nice folx who created autoconf.
16:34	asciilifeform	for this 'gift'.
16:35	asciilifeform	i've had it hang on other occasions, never found out why.
16:35	ben_vulpes	it's not strictly speaking hung afaict; cursor blinks, newlines and other chars write to term
16:35	asciilifeform	well of course they will
16:35	asciilifeform	it ain't your ~shell~ that hung.
16:35	ben_vulpes	mright
16:36	trinque	reminds me I gotta buy the HD screws for g5 cheese-grater
16:47	asciilifeform	in other noose, swedish lulz.
16:47	asciilifeform	diesel snackbar in stockholm.
16:51	phf	dat variety speak overflow
		~ 48 minutes ~
17:40	*	shinohai wonders if he should write an article on how an airstrike in response for killing of children results in death of 4 children ....
17:45	mircea_popescu	dead babiez meme!
17:46	shinohai	http://archive.is/YkMfJ
17:50	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640078 << are you sure this is equiv to select * where something=something and if nothing is selected insert, ie, does the insert take read locks while it looks for the where ?
17:50	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 16:49 trinque: insert into factors (val) values (3) where not exists (select 1 from factors where value = 3);
17:50	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: on contemplation, cars may not be a very good hiding place, they ( esp in usa ) routinely move through chokepoints - toll archs, and these are already equipped with camera and radio receivers << Depends on region and car
17:52	pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: always depends on car!
17:52	pete_dushenski	Framedragger: new command added to directory yesterday, just fyi :)
17:53	pete_dushenski	also !~tits added!
		↖
17:53	trinque	mircea_popescu: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/mvcc-intro.html << "Internally, data consistency is maintained by using a multiversion model (Multiversion Concurrency Control, MVCC). This means that each SQL statement sees a snapshot of data (a database version) as it was some time ago, regardless of the current state of the underlying data. This prevents statements from viewing inconsistent
17:53	*	BingoBoingo amazed by fake news wank over Assad dropped sarin vs. Assad bomed, sarin happened to be in bomb's way
17:53	trinque	data produced by concurrent transactions performing updates on the same data rows, providing transaction isolation for each database session. MVCC, by eschewing the locking methodologies of traditional database systems, minimizes lock contention in order to allow for reasonable performance in multiuser environments."
17:54	mircea_popescu	i am not advanced enough for this
17:54	trinque	and "reading never blocks writing and writing never blocks reading"
17:54	BingoBoingo	Trump needed contrast to Obama/watches too much television, and needs a pretext to come into friendship with Putin honestly if MWGA is to happen
17:54	shinohai	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640351 <<< lol thx pete_dushenski
17:54	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 21:53 pete_dushenski: also !~tits added!
17:54	trinque	the thing forks the database upon each write and reads happen in the snapshot of state they began
17:55	mircea_popescu	trinque so an insert if not exists where a = b does NOT block a different select while it checks the where clause ?
17:55	trinque	absolutely not per my understanding of pg
17:55	mircea_popescu	alright.
17:55	trinque	two writes may
17:55	trinque	n writes.
17:55	mircea_popescu	wait
17:56	trinque	if you and I are trying to update the same table your update may block until after mine
17:56	pete_dushenski	shinohai: cheers :) also (belatedly) wd on lordship nomination! very well deserved
17:56	mircea_popescu	suppose S = "insert if not exists where a = b" prototype. suppose S takes time T composed of ti for the insert and tw for the where clause. Suppose thjere's 5 concurrent S presented to db, S1..S5. are you saying that IN NO CASE will Sn wait for a Twi where i != n ?
17:57	mircea_popescu	ie, s5 is NOT waiting to do EITHER its insert or its where check because S3 is doing EITHER its insert or its where check ?
17:58	shinohai	ty pete_dushenski ... gonna buy me a celebratory mercedes? :)
17:59	pete_dushenski	haha well mine is for sale... could always gift. can you give me a tax receipt for your needy cause ?
17:59	shinohai	Hmmm .... the foundation for the preservation of slutty tits ?
18:00	pete_dushenski	it'd be discriminatory NOT to give to that cause!
18:00	shinohai	And selling the mercedes! O.o
18:00	pete_dushenski	making room for more nazisleds ;)
18:01	shinohai	Oh ha .... werd
18:01	pete_dushenski	but the replacement is still hush-hush. stay tuned.
18:02	trinque	mircea_popescu: reads block nobody, never block. I understand the where clause of an insert statement to be a condition on a read query that gets fed into a write, just as my "common table expressions" ('with' keyword) feed into each other.
18:02	mircea_popescu	aite.
18:04	*	BingoBoingo awaits pete_dushenski's eventual conversion to plasticar and panel replacement that requires only a good flat head screwdriver
18:05	trinque	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VBOWD/?raw=true << values part of an insert is a table literal
18:07	trinque	equiv to select 1,2,3 ; and you can use that if you like
18:13	trinque	http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-medvedev-idUSKBN17928I << in other concurrency issues
18:14	pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: only 'domestic' i'd touch is f-150. new citroen 'h van' is my kinda plastic though. frp. tres retrocool aussi.
18:15	BingoBoingo	Bah
18:15	trinque	by the nato precedent set by turkey, I'd expect russia can down an american plane or two without risking a nuclear exchange, eh?
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18:16	pete_dushenski	in other boosts, asicboost is back as the segwit saviour : http://archive.is/1BYAX (gmaxwell)
18:17	pete_dushenski	trinque: russia could down 1/16 us aircraft carrieres without risking nukage.
18:17	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: this is an ancient (circa 2014 or so) snorefest
18:18	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: apparently snores are fuel for core lulz. like logs in fire.
18:19	ben_vulpes	!~tits
18:19	jhvh1	( . Y . ) http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ ( . Y . )
18:19	ben_vulpes	oh
18:19	ben_vulpes	i was hoping for a bait reimplementation
18:20	pete_dushenski	why hope when you can read directory ?
18:20	ben_vulpes	i'm not going to crack a web browser when the bot's right there
18:21	pete_dushenski	https://medium.com/@samcole_74219/asicboost-655a73d48ae4 << more of the same sadness as above. strap double gas mask on for this one. 'sam cole founder of kncminer' is functionally illiterate.
18:21	pete_dushenski	ben_vulpes: mk.
18:34	pete_dushenski	"Well I was a major miner for over two years and I lost out because other people had a lower CoC. I had to say goodbye to a business that I built from the ground up. I’m not calling fowl play and throwing my toys out of the pram. Its called business and its what enables people to invest in bitcoin." ~sam cole (tm). so fowl. so chicken. cluck cluck!
18:35	pete_dushenski	it can't really be any wonder that knc sunk. not after reading this.
18:37	ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: 'twas 4.7
18:38	asciilifeform	gcc?
18:38	ben_vulpes	mhm
18:38	ben_vulpes	compiling 4.9 here, will try again.
18:39	ben_vulpes	honestly i'll be surprised if it compiles
18:41	asciilifeform	oh unrelatedly to anything,
18:42	asciilifeform	asciilifeform finally found a rng-usable beta decay source that is permitted in every country's post office, available worldwide, and for a few bux per kg : ordinary KCl.
18:44	asciilifeform	K consists of K-40 at 120 ppm
18:44	asciilifeform	half life ~1.3 x 10^9 yrs.
18:45	pete_dushenski	BingoBoingo: before you totally bah at frpmobile http://archive.is/MfHrx
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18:45	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: cost for kcl ?
18:46	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: check your favourite grocery shop
18:46	pete_dushenski	eh, minibucks don't buy much. prolly 2x what you'd pay!
18:46	asciilifeform	or anywhere gardening supplies are sold
18:46	asciilifeform	or weight lifter's shop
18:46	asciilifeform	or, or.
18:46	asciilifeform	in usa it is sold as 'diet salt'
18:48	pete_dushenski	looks like ~$100/kg on scamazon
18:49	asciilifeform	in what, zimbabwe dollars ?
18:49	ben_vulpes	https://www.amazon.com/Potassium-Chloride-KCl-10-Pounds/dp/B008NX3SU0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1491605341&sr=8-2&keywords=kcl << 27.99
18:49	ben_vulpes	10 lbs
18:49	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: cad, so close
18:50	asciilifeform	that looks like ~6 $ u.s / kg.
18:51	pete_dushenski	cheapest kg i'm seeing is cad$20+40 for shipping = cad$60
18:51	asciilifeform	buy at corner store.
18:51	pete_dushenski	sure sure
18:52	asciilifeform	anyway entire bag would power several thou. pin diode
18:59	deedbot	http://www.contravex.com/2017/04/07/installing-openbsd-on-macppc/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Installing OpenBSD on MacPPC
19:00	pete_dushenski	^eventually got it :D
19:03	shinohai	http://btcinfo.sdf.org/uploads/PresidentTrump.mp4
19:06	asciilifeform	lolwut
19:09	shinohai	Now you make me want to buy one of these ppc's pete_dushenski
19:19	pete_dushenski	that's exactly my scheme to bid up the prices of g5s. bwahaha!
19:22	shinohai	>:3
19:23	*	pete_dushenski to go skate on nhl ice.
19:24	shinohai	In batshit crazy racial news: http://archive.is/BxMbu
		~ 55 minutes ~
20:19	asciilifeform	https://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer%20products/magazines.htm << in other lulz
20:26	shinohai	https://twitter.com/MrChrisEllis/status/850496261870546944 "conspiring with top brass" lmfao
		~ 2 hours 27 minutes ~
22:53	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640411 << lol, gasenwagen! , compare >> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdGLqV_WEAAEIrz.jpg
22:53	a111	Logged on 2017-04-07 22:45 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: before you totally bah at frpmobile http://archive.is/MfHrx

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