Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-01-31 | 2022-02-02 → ↓
01:15 vex $ticker btc usd
01:16 asciilifeform vex: bot awol
01:16 vex i see
01:17 vex 38400 according to bitcoinity
01:20 vex !e view-balance 1comboyNsev2ubWRbPZpxxNhghLfonzuN
01:20 trbexplorer block_height: 721265
01:20 trbexplorer value_sats: 311707787
01:20 trbexplorer value_btc: 3.11707787
~ 30 minutes ~
01:50 vex [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-27#1069796] Is pest going to improve my wot experience? Why the fuck should I rate every aquaintance -10 to 10 for all to see?
01:50 dulapbot Logged on 2021-12-27 13:16:35 asciilifeform: sees pest, in 'big picture', as a generalization of the wot, rather than simply replacement for ircism.
01:51 vex I don't like the wot that I've seen. it seems basic
01:56 vex rate wot 1, does what it says on the box
02:00 vex alf's bytebrief nomenclature re signing patches is much more appealing
02:01 asciilifeform 'how will square roots serve me?'(tm)(r)(mp)
02:01 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-03-22 asciilifeform: i'ma let mircea_popescu give the one-troo summary if he feels like ( it's his article ) but will say, it was about the archetypical f-student schoolbois's canonical lament 'what good will learning square roots do for me'
02:02 asciilifeform vex: signatures of vpatches or anyffin else for that matter are meaningless outside of a wot.
02:03 asciilifeform why rate people? obv. you can live w/out rating people. or for that matter, some manage to live more or less w/out talking to people at all
02:03 shinohai looooooool
02:04 vex I think I understand, but why just rate floormonkeys? could there not be a standard for man or machine?
02:04 asciilifeform one doesn't rate people, or machines, for that matter, but pubkeys.
02:04 asciilifeform elementarily.
02:05 vex so why share an array of 1-10 with erryone?
02:06 asciilifeform vex: what kinda array, and with whom, wouldja prefer to share?
02:07 vex I've never rated anyone
02:07 asciilifeform vex: was it strictly b/c in signpost's thing it's 1-10, and vex cannot abide this, needs e.g. 1-64 ?
02:07 vex Why should I send that too all and sundry?
02:08 vex 1-64 is better
02:08 asciilifeform soo, to whom exactly, would send then?
02:10 vex o.0
02:12 vex i need to ponder this more. what was signpost's thing?
02:12 asciilifeform the classical wot
02:14 asciilifeform iirc we discussed hypothetical pestronic wot, where yer peers can ask for yer ratings. and imho this wins, but strictly because eliminates the need for 'wot lives on 1 d00d's www', rather than because it makes any kinda sense to keep ratings seekrit
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02:15 vex seems correct, then I can tell somone one thing and sonelks another
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02:15 asciilifeform and imho ideally ratings would be visible to one's pestnet via broadcast
02:15 asciilifeform vex: elaborate: why wouldja want to do this?
02:16 vex not sure. I've had a couple of cocktails. the thing that always bugs me is that wot ratings seem like privledges info
02:16 asciilifeform seems like a certain path to getting rated '-64: schizo' by errybody, eventually
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02:17 vex perhaps
02:17 whaack http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077257 <> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077286
02:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-30 13:00:46 cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
02:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-30 14:23:19 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077257 << imho the correct place for a block exploder is ultimately a pseudoserver within trb noad per se, locally
02:18 vex for instance, I might trust you to use my computer, but not my car
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02:19 whaack cgra: yes, i think somewhere in the logs i discussed how i wanted to open up the ability to do any general sql read query
02:19 mats an o(1) lookup would be great
02:19 mats think there's mugs selling api access to bitcoin in bigquery
02:19 vex I don't want to tell everyone that you're not invited to drive my car
02:20 asciilifeform vex: so don't ?
02:21 mats nvm, its free
02:21 asciilifeform mats: best of all'd be a o(1) lookup ~in own trb noad~ db
02:21 whaack but making this feature is not a priority because as asciilifeform says, your blockexplorer should be run locally
02:21 mats thats what i meant
02:22 asciilifeform all the req'd parts are there. 'just add glue'
02:22 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-01 15:00:29 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's not a thing that'd rise to the level of 'plan'. asciilifeform in particular wrote 3 things: 'nqb', a largely-complete coder/decoder for the formats used in trb; ffa, with which possible to perform the cryptonumerics; and 'cryostat', to implement a o(1) db .
02:22 whaack it's pretty nice to be able to look up my addresses and the addresses of ppl i do biz with without having to share that lookup data with anyone
02:22 vex I'll think on it asciilifeform, and you can drive my car. There's vodka in the glovebox
02:23 asciilifeform why ty vex .
02:23 asciilifeform whaack: correct. if you think about it, is rather what trb is ~for~ to begin with -- agreeing on the troo state of a shared db.
02:23 whaack http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077261 << do you have suggestions for improvement?
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02:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-30 13:27:15 signpost: the IRC request -> paste response mechanism is a rough approximation that can be much improved.
02:23 asciilifeform in that light makes very little sense to 'how do i moar conveniently share this db w/ selected people'
02:24 mats shouldn't this lookup functionality already be in bitcoind
02:24 asciilifeform mats: well e.g. prb doesn't even index anyffin outside of 'utxo'
02:24 asciilifeform ( trb -- does, but there's 0 useful db glue that'd letcha query externally )
02:25 mats sounds like a plan
02:26 asciilifeform whaack: likewise, pest (as currently pictured in spec) lets you invite peers to make db queries when it makes sense . i.e. 'getdata' cmd.
02:26 asciilifeform can't think of too many cases where 'expose arbitrary sql queries' is the obvious Right Thing tho
02:27 asciilifeform normally there's a much moar narrowly-definable thing yer actually aiming to do
02:30 whaack exposing arbitrary sql queries immediately makes me think one is in a 'research and development' mindset
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02:30 asciilifeform it's just shorta giving sumbody shell on yer box
02:31 asciilifeform yes, sometimes you might like to
02:31 vex ^tax free in oz al la dr wrong
02:31 asciilifeform but for most collaborations it aint req'd and in fact rather 'heavyweight'
02:31 whaack haha right, might as well do that !
02:32 asciilifeform it's rather like giving friends keys to your house. (or even, say, garage.) yes, sometimes people do this. but not often needed, and most folx would rather you didn't give'em
02:37 asciilifeform to extend -- most folx manage to have social life w/out giving erryone they socialize with keys to their car.
02:38 vex i'd be uncomfortable in a borrowed car.
02:39 asciilifeform you similarly prolly wouldn't ~want~ to have a drawer w/ n d00ds' car keys in it.
02:39 asciilifeform ~0 good is likely to come of it.
02:40 vex verily
02:40 asciilifeform see also e.g.
02:40 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-03-04 asciilifeform: there is a related soviet joke. abramowitch (generic jew, not the oligarch) calls a friend who was over for dinner last night:
02:40 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-03-04 asciilifeform: 'we're short of a few silver spoons. shame on you';
02:40 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-03-04 asciilifeform: friend denies
02:40 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-03-04 asciilifeform: next day, A calls again 'we found the spoons. but the stain on your reputation... it remains.'
02:42 * asciilifeform must bbl.
02:42 * vex goes to took if the big bloke reported lulz
02:43 vex I luld
02:44 vex It'd be a summary offence if alf left the vodka untouched
02:51 vex mats. where's the value at?
02:52 vex how do we price .ykp?
02:56 vex I feel like I can speak on behalf of mats; stfu vex
02:59 vex BingoBoingo. I hope like fuck you're working hard at a new endeavour. proof of life pls
03:04 vex good news bad news. something cunt
03:06 vex perhaps I can extend my small mind to some other awesome floormonkeys
03:07 vex billymg. I read your lappy install
03:07 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077468 << >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077268
03:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:24:07 whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077261 << do you have suggestions for improvement?
03:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-30 13:41:01 signpost: but upstack, the logical progression of IRC botworks is being able to (deedbot:deed "signed payload to be deeded") into pest, and receive back an ack that it was heard.
03:09 signpost nothing wrong with what's being done now. eventually it'd be nice to have a structured message format for bots, with which we'd, for example, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077442
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03:09 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:14:40 asciilifeform: iirc we discussed hypothetical pestronic wot, where yer peers can ask for yer ratings. and imho this wins, but strictly because eliminates the need for 'wot lives on 1 d00d's www', rather than because it makes any kinda sense to keep ratings seekrit
03:10 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077443 << this makes you a lying shitbag if you make a habit of it, ftr.
03:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:15:19 vex: seems correct, then I can tell somone one thing and sonelks another
03:10 signpost if your relationships don't matter to you, nor honor, wot's not going to make a drop of sense.
03:10 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077447 << yes.
03:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:17:06 asciilifeform: seems like a certain path to getting rated '-64: schizo' by errybody, eventually
03:11 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077452 << ah. access permission is a separate thing from wot.
03:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:18:22 vex: for instance, I might trust you to use my computer, but not my car
03:12 signpost using wot like a "score" which grants you permission to do things perverts it, becomes a performative-before-eyes-of-dictatorship social credit score.
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03:13 vex i pri don't understand it.
03:13 vex not trying to pervert anything
03:14 * signpost just stating ftr.
03:14 signpost such that you understand moar
03:14 * vex appreciates the insight
03:15 signpost that said distributed "turo" or w/e is interesting; I've pondered it a lot too
03:16 vex ? whats turo
03:16 signpost airbnb-clone for car rentals.
03:17 vex ah. it's a serial killer local in oz
03:17 billymg vex: nice, what'd you think of the article?
03:17 signpost yeah, quite a lot of these. I'm not sure whether they work without the pile of VC money flowing into insurance, at least in fiat world.
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03:18 vex haven't fully parsed it billymg. nice to know it's there
03:18 billymg glad to hear it, more on the way too
~ 31 minutes ~
03:50 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFedv7ZoV7M back from the brink
04:02 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW3pZjmS3rg
~ 47 minutes ~
04:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077509 << for most bot-to-bot cases, would expect sexpr would work a++
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04:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 22:09:55 signpost: nothing wrong with what's being done now. eventually it'd be nice to have a structured message format for bots, with which we'd, for example, http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077442
04:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077529 << recently asciilifeform had occasion to purchase anuther auto insurance policy; bulk of the paperwork was filled by 'yes i swear it won't be driven for profit or lent out, yes ack that this immediately voids the policy' etc etc
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04:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 22:18:07 signpost: yeah, quite a lot of these. I'm not sure whether they work without the pile of VC money flowing into insurance, at least in fiat world.
04:54 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077518 << thinking about this, the only ratings which have mechanizable meaning are 0 and posint
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04:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 22:13:08 signpost: using wot like a "score" which grants you permission to do things perverts it, becomes a performative-before-eyes-of-dictatorship social credit score.
04:54 asciilifeform errything else -- cosmetic
04:54 asciilifeform 0 readily corresponds to 'not peered', posint -- 'peer'
04:56 asciilifeform yes being able to 'rate bozo -10 he fucks goats' is on some level satisfying. but asciilifeform dun recall a single occasion where 'hm i think i'll do biz with bozo... oh hm waitaminute my l1 folx rated him -10 fucks pigs.. hm nm'
04:57 asciilifeform a persistent bozo invariably bakes new key and turns to 0 whenever he feels like it
04:58 asciilifeform hence 'cosmetic'.
~ 43 minutes ~
05:41 scoopbot New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: Tabular Programming: Roman Numerals
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05:43 verisimilitude Due to CSS and whatnot, the Gopher version is far better.
05:49 verisimilitude I'm quite proud of this article, being much longer than what's usual for me.
~ 2 hours 8 minutes ~
07:57 cgra http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077478 << prolly exactly the angle i was looking from (trb study). otoh, has same effect, and gets you two birds with one stone, when you get to publish the explorer sources >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-30#1077257
07:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:30:52 whaack: exposing arbitrary sql queries immediately makes me think one is in a 'research and development' mindset
07:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-30 13:00:46 cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
08:09 cgra signpost: would it work/make sense to you to make pastes linked in pest messages (seen by your station) permanent?
08:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-29 15:04:28 asciilifeform: sick and tired of the expiring pastes; signpost do you suppose it's possible to mark pastes which appear in log as non-expiring..?
08:15 cgra i can see a theme here: 'i don't have my own yet, can i borrow yours?' explorer. paste bin.
~ 8 hours 12 minutes ~
16:28 signpost cgra: yep, I'm of the "why would we put another drop of effort into a centralized service" school.
16:28 signpost pastes are a napkin. if you want it to stick around, why wouldn't you blog it?
16:29 signpost that said, I think an easily mutable hypertext system shared among members of a wot (on top of a pest-implemented DHT) would be a mighty fine thing.
16:30 signpost oughta see all current, centralized items as shitty approximations of the right thing, imho.
16:30 asciilifeform ^
16:30 signpost one paste-tron < many paste-trons < making social (in the old, correct sense) hypertext real.
16:31 signpost that said I haven't flushed the toilet on the paster in a while; it just gets jammed up now and again with spam
16:31 signpost I could perhaps add a human test to the thing and stop flushing meanwhile
16:32 * shinohai rather enjoys having own paste-o-tron for passing along ephemeral, "napkiny" thingz ....
16:34 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077534 << yeah, and bit-packing schemes can run into idiocy real quick if done incorrectly.
16:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 23:50:17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077509 << for most bot-to-bot cases, would expect sexpr would work a++
16:35 asciilifeform signpost: from asciilifeform's pov -- the only things which belong in protocol are the ones req'd for pestron to operate
16:35 * signpost has enjoyed the "nothing until absolutely needed" approach with pentacle. babby just grew a "world file" yesterday, has a sha256 of the src and build-script that yielded the installed item, so it can know when it's necessary to rebuild.
16:35 signpost yep
16:36 signpost re: pentacle going to hold off on a release until I refactor more. there are a few gentooisms it needs yet before properly worth others' time.
16:38 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077536 << funny that these renting out their cars, rooms, wives, see themselves as business owners, and not the impoverished.
16:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 23:53:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077529 << recently asciilifeform had occasion to purchase anuther auto insurance policy; bulk of the paperwork was filled by 'yes i swear it won't be driven for profit or lent out, yes ack that this immediately voids the policy' etc etc
16:38 signpost as if no other society ever came to this.
16:39 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077538 << agreed that friend/foe is basically a bit; one can't rent your car with "just the tip"
16:39 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 23:54:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077518 << thinking about this, the only ratings which have mechanizable meaning are 0 and posint
16:40 signpost where nuance is needed in regards to *classification* of humans known, probably a different layer entirely.
16:41 signpost say, a deeded contract good for 6mos of rentals at signpost's rust-bucket lot, after which deedbot requires a proof of insurance to issue another 6mos.
16:42 signpost good to let separate things be separate, and not try to beat wot into something for machines too.
16:42 signpost if you crash the car, then the human comes along and "-5 caused us $40k loss" and revokes access to the cars.
16:43 * signpost leery of making the human decisions automatic, likely leads to chinese dystopia.
16:46 asciilifeform signpost: imho the very impulse to 'autoclassify' meat comes from star topology hell
16:46 asciilifeform from pov of well-curated wot, it simply wouldn't occur to anyone
16:50 signpost indeed, smacks of factory farming.
16:54 asciilifeform from asciilifeform's pov, a >dunbar-sized wot, where such 'automations' seem useful, is an atrocity to begin with
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16:56 asciilifeform i.e. exactly 'chinese dystopia', where 'cattle management' semi-automated so to give politburo moar time for yachts & cocaine
16:57 asciilifeform and the relationship of such thing to a wot -- strictly cosmetic, rather like a shitcoin's relationship to bitcoin
17:04 asciilifeform worth noting that the star topologists quite deliberately cultivate this confusion (i.e. b/w p2p wot and gestapo automation). for rather obvious aim of stoking anonytardism.
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17:10 * asciilifeform lost count of how many n00bs in past decade 'ohnoez, i won't bake a pubkey, how could i possibly win from having a contiguous public identity, only gestapo can win from it' etc
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17:15 asciilifeform ( see e.g. most recent thrd )
17:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-08 17:30:55 asciilifeform: all anonymity does is to destroy the very possibility of human relations.
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~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
19:04 cgra asciilifeform: i crunched through hashes and difficulty targets of block heights ~600k..650k and found that ~17% of them had one or more top bits equal. now i'm confused again how is the kingergarten logic peculiar. that many matching top bits suggests to me not every miner aims [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-31#1077390][one top bit lower than the
19:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 09:10:21 asciilifeform: cgra: this seems like a peculiar way to calculate the 'overwork', considering that the diff is quantized by the upper bits and the bottom segment being 'less' dun help
19:04 cgra target]
19:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 10:52:16 cgra: asciilifeform: re "quantized by upper bits", do you mean mining works more efficiently if in case of minimum difficulty, you aim at or under 000000007fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff instead? ie. guaranteed less top bits than the threshold
19:04 cgra top bits equal meaning here for example in the extreme case, block 0000000000000000000e95d1cabfbb9dec4469bf0eb17645187acc848aeb1349, whose target value is 0000000000000000000e95de0000000000000000000000000000000000000000
19:05 asciilifeform cgra: when 2+ blox 'meet diff', the 1 w/ 'moar' pow wins
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~ 2 hours 25 minutes ~
21:31 bonechewer I'm sure this will be an unpopular take, but imho trust is too situational a thing for a single number to quantify it meaningfully. Case in point: Rob Landley, author of toybox, is a competent coder, but also a very damaged person. How does one express that in an integer?
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~ 26 minutes ~
21:58 signpost do you have a personal relationship with the guy?
21:58 signpost and even knowing a person isn't the same as expressing that they're part of your l1.
22:01 signpost yeah, reading this drivel, I'd assume thimbronion would not rate *him*, but perhaps would sign a vpatch of some of his work.
22:01 signpost whoops *bonechewer
22:02 signpost "this item is useful" is quite different than "I know and have dealt directly with this person"
22:10 signpost fwiw I grant the arbitrary nature of ratings, and have considered whether it'd be better as an ordered list of peers.
22:11 signpost this is what we're saying, aren't we? that we regard this one with a bit more trust/esteem than that one.
22:11 signpost perhaps doing so would force folks to choose between folks where they don't wish to, at least publically.
22:12 signpost given that, seems letting people assign numeric values within the positive and negative space is useful, to avoid communicating difference where one isn't perceived.
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22:16 signpost regarding whether it's valuable to communicate one's relationships publically, this is imho the only alternative to the poisonous rot of modern, corrupted, false-faced interaction.
22:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-31 21:15:19 vex: seems correct, then I can tell somone one thing and sonelks another
22:16 signpost to have a space that is singular, and public, at all.
22:18 * signpost is curious whether some folks thought tmsr invented "republic", rather than imitated forms long-standing in history.
22:30 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-01#1077595 << never once heard of this lolcow, and nfi wai busybox 'needed' to be reimplemented 'from scratch' fwiw
22:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-01 16:31:34 bonechewer: I'm sure this will be an unpopular take, but imho trust is too situational a thing for a single number to quantify it meaningfully. Case in point: Rob Landley, author of toybox, is a competent coder, but also a very damaged person. How does one express that in an integer?
22:32 * asciilifeform observes that in not one instance did asciilifeform ever see a 'x programs competently, tho damaged person(tm)', dig in, and 'hm yes we could never do without x's $program'
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22:32 asciilifeform erry single fucking time it's some poetteringism.
22:33 asciilifeform often enuff, as in this case, a 'libreboot'-style attempted hijacking of sumthing or other.
22:35 signpost http://landley.net/toybox/about.html << sounds like mostly a gpl vs bsd license thing.
22:35 signpost but this guy's "blog" drivel would make me hesitate to touch any of his work.
22:36 asciilifeform lol! 'ohai lemme help crapple & microshit parasitize on opensores!' ?
22:36 signpost yeah, android in this case, hue
22:36 asciilifeform seems entirely typical of genre.
22:36 signpost anyway, was actually hoping bonechewer would bother a response. I wasn't making a speech.
22:37 asciilifeform 'The smartphone is replacing the PC' didjaknow.
22:37 signpost and the cardboard flat the brick house.
22:39 asciilifeform an' ground-up roaches -- coffee, etc. aha.
22:39 asciilifeform what asciilifeform finds interesting is that in no case to date these folx leave any doubt re what they are
22:40 signpost implementing posix userland with decent code doesn't require any greatness of character, just obedience to spec.
22:40 asciilifeform or even vaguely provoke the q of 'well he's loathesome but his softs are a++, wat do'
22:40 signpost entirely compatible with screeching about "can't sleep because youtube wont recognize the plight of the whatevers"
22:40 asciilifeform in errycase to date iirc, the tree and fruit are equally poisonous.
22:41 signpost mhm, no argument to contrary.
22:41 * signpost wishes the empires that produced these subbie slaves would clean up after them.
22:42 signpost they don't work without the apparatus that directed them.
22:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-01#1077604 << asciilifeform historically dissatisfied with scalar ratings but they're still a hellafalot better than nuffin
22:42 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-01 17:12:41 signpost: given that, seems letting people assign numeric values within the positive and negative space is useful, to avoid communicating difference where one isn't perceived.
22:44 signpost asciilifeform: yeah, was a friendly challenge to the gent to justify his "take". usually these reveal uninspected capitulation in the person's notion of "relationship".
22:44 bonechewer Sorry for the lack of response, signpost! Phone rang for $DAYJOB before I managed to type /away
22:44 signpost logs are async, just baiting you over here!
22:44 asciilifeform signpost: the apparatus maintains a caste of parasites with chronic ennui, these spin in place agitproping, 'opensoresing', etc. on own steam, attempting to quench unquenchable thirst of 'feeling significant'
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22:44 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 19:35:30 asciilifeform: it's a terrifying egowound to the typical derpware author (esp. if addicted to 'feeling significant' -- 'how will i stay at the center of things if a proggy can be finished??!!' )
22:45 signpost this notion of relationship is well worth arguing into form, imho.
22:45 signpost "hasn't backstabbed me yet" doesn't meet the bar.
22:47 asciilifeform signpost: at one time asciilifeform thought 'monkey who sits and rewrites bsd plagiarization of gpl proggy is gunning for crumbs from microshit table' but nao suspect it aint this, aint the '30 silvers' that motivate.
22:47 signpost yeah, there's nobody in there. no soul to sell.
22:48 asciilifeform there's nowhere near enuff crumbs dispensed from that table to explain.
22:48 signpost NPC with a hole where the script goes in.
22:48 asciilifeform well there's certainly a script. they all seem to run exactly same one.
22:48 bonechewer In any case, I am glad to provoke discussion. RL (whom I don't know personally) may not be the best example, but I do know (e.g.) competent hardware designers who enthusiastically not only vote but proselytize pantsuit
22:49 signpost bonechewer: this is the classical distinction between free and slave.
22:49 bonechewer It causes me massive cognitive dissonance, but I can only speculate as to how they got this way
22:49 bonechewer signpost: what distinction are you refering to
22:49 * asciilifeform has yet to run into any such creature
22:50 signpost bonechewer: they don't ask the question you do. it's not "what is true" in there, just "what is ordered".
22:50 signpost or even baser, just "what doesn't hurt"
22:51 asciilifeform this supposed compulsion, it dun exist either, asciilifeform not 1nce to date heard 'well we'd give you this contract but we looked at yer www and you haven't even once agitated for clitler, kthx bye'
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22:52 asciilifeform seen over9000 folx allege this to exist, but never 1nce met this loch ness monster.
22:52 signpost asciilifeform: a person can be captive by the urge to be holy within religion, rather than fear of hell.
22:53 asciilifeform e.g. mp was convinced that this 'universal' nao in all commercial reich, went to davy jones's locker still convinced
22:53 bonechewer for contract work I believe it, but recruiters tell me that resumes for engineering manager jobs these days are expected to burn a pinch of incense in worship of Diversity, Inclusion, Equity
22:54 signpost asciilifeform: I see most people as what was left over after millenia of culling the less obedient ones.
22:54 signpost we did the same with dogs and livestock
22:54 signpost bonechewer: this is most certainly the case.
22:55 signpost asciilifeform: perhaps macroexpand. you're saying mp thought the cowards live in fear of compulsion to serve the reich?
22:58 * signpost will meanwhile restate his view.
22:58 asciilifeform signpost: was speaking of the notion that no one in reich does any longer anyffin resembling commercial softs work w/out 'fellating hr mammies' and heiling clitler etc.
22:58 * asciilifeform tries to dig up illustrative thrd, but nodice, evidently was phrased differently there
22:58 signpost ah, nah, even the ones that do, it's cynical.
22:58 signpost "yeah whatever, in the name of the father, son, holy ghost, amen"
22:59 signpost it's barely alive.
22:59 signpost my view is that there's a type of human that actively seeks out "the rules", lives to enforce them upon self and others.
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23:00 bonechewer signpost: no doubt some but the hw designer I mentioned posts Diversity stuff even on his personal facebook where only his l1 can read it and volunteers at a grrl-power coding camp
23:00 signpost this same creature can both "yes mommy" to posix and the castrated male thing.
23:00 bonechewer i.e., true believer in globohomo. Perhaps goes hand-in-hand with overt hostility to conventional religion.
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23:00 asciilifeform bonechewer: i can think of >1 reason to 'volunteer' at 'grrl' xyz
23:01 signpost :D
23:01 signpost quite fun to teach women to code, done it plenty.
23:01 bonechewer asciilifeform: that would be your reason or mine, but these are high school girls, he has a wife and is not looking to go to jail
23:01 asciilifeform (recall e.g. dan mocsny's piece re how he attended evangelical church for many yrs after becoming an atheist, simply to pick up chix)
23:01 bonechewer signpost: true, teaching my daughter to coad is A++ run
23:02 bonechewer *fun
23:02 signpost boys are in my experience quicker to turn sour and start bitching. they're usually weaker.
23:04 signpost anyway, upstack, these rule-repeaters are stability mechanisms that utterly *cannot think* that whatever the ambient rule-system they fell out of their mothers into is wrong.
23:04 bonechewer signpost: that is an appealing explanation except that wokeness is so new, was only nascent in late '90s when the folx I am thinking of were in university
23:04 signpost perhaps at various points this strategy permitted social status a hair above the bottom, so it worked.
23:05 signpost man castration cults are ancient
23:05 signpost take your pick.
23:07 bonechewer hmm, it may not be important but I don't grasp your conjecture. Are you saying even pre-woke USA was a man-castration cult?
23:07 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-18#1073873 << "removing the thing that gives you power will grant you a higher power"
23:07 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-18 13:41:45 signpost: cults must cause adherents to internalize a contradiction; it permits arbitrary command.
23:08 * asciilifeform contents that the subj folx are found in appreciable #s in some, evidently, organizations, and not others; and is worth thinking about why
23:09 bonechewer how did globohomo achieve the status of ambient rule-system, though? When many of its adherents were kids, homosexuality was still considered undesirable
23:10 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-01#1077670 << traditional religion wasn't dishing out the kind of hardcore bdsm it used to, needed more potent pain.
23:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-01 18:01:08 bonechewer: i.e., true believer in globohomo. Perhaps goes hand-in-hand with overt hostility to conventional religion.
23:10 bonechewer and to be clear: the fellow I am thinking of is not a homosexual, merely a fellow traveler
23:10 signpost what do you meany by "globohomo" here?
23:11 bonechewer sorry, it is common shorthand in bonechewer's online circles for the belief system of the reich: subjugate orcistans and make them host Pride Parades
23:12 signpost ah yeah, afghan women's chess club and etc
23:12 signpost this marxist cultural revolution thing was probably being actively fed in the US by geopolitical enemies, for one.
23:13 signpost but internal cultural weakness is enough.
23:13 bonechewer Perhaps geopolitical enemies started feeding it once they noticed it, but it seems to be an organic development in USA
23:14 bonechewer A Christian heresy that discarded Christianity
23:14 signpost you don't see a lineage from modern leftism back into protestant christianity?
23:15 asciilifeform ftr asciilifeform's cosmography re subj.
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23:15 signpost imho identity politics grew directly out of "own personal jesus"
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-22 14:00:13 asciilifeform: 'let'em fight an imaginary race war in forum comments, maybe won't notice their savings evaporating' etc
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2021-04-22 14:01:38 asciilifeform: this is a '50s-era decision, btw. originally made, in usa, to destroy the unions.
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 19:23:44 asciilifeform: lizards in usa 'solved' the 'unions problem' by getting rid of labour, creating caste of lumpens on left side of bell curve and caste of paper shufflers on right side, with the sleight-of-hand moar than sufficing to ramp down expectations of life for all of'em
23:15 asciilifeform 'identity politic'(tm)(r) was an artfully constructed boojum to defuse labour movement. worked a++.
23:15 bonechewer signpost: exactly that! In New England, the Puritan churches founded in the 1600s now have rainbow and BLM flags out front
23:16 signpost yep, quite a pill against solidarity of any kind.
23:16 signpost bonechewer: yeah, but this isn't something good that rotted. once you ask random dipshits what god said to them, you're doomed.
23:17 signpost "uh, he said whatever makes me uncomfortable isn't a thing"
23:18 bonechewer yes, Puritanism was the direct ancestor of today's leftism
23:19 signpost quite agree.
23:19 * signpost bbl, errand
23:19 bonechewer see ya, signpost
23:20 * bonechewer should apologize for opening this whole depressing can of worms with musings on wot
23:25 bonechewer Of greater interest (at least to me) is this Twitter thread with blow-by-blow account of getting an open source system-on-chip booting Linux in a Verilog simulator
23:27 bonechewer It's an OpenPOWER clone on a 180nm process, so not going to revolutionise the world of computing, but still it would be nice for there to exist another Fritz-free CPU
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