Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2020-05-09 | 2020-05-11 →
14:12 feedbot << Loper OS -- "Finite Field Arithmetic." Chapter 21A-Bis: Fix for Lethal Flaw in Ch.15's Greatest Common Divisor.
~ 46 minutes ~
14:58 asciilifeform ^ full postmortem and cure for this item .
14:58 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-07 15:14:35 asciilifeform: in other noose, when testing Ext.GCD against the regular ch.15 kind, found a catastrophic bug in... the latter.
~ 3 hours 37 minutes ~
18:35 asciilifeform !w poll
18:35 watchglass Polling 11 nodes...
18:35 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.088s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.098s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform)
18:35 watchglass : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854 (Operator: asciilifeform)
18:35 watchglass : Alive: (0.106s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : Alive: (0.341s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : ( Alive: (0.306s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=629854
18:35 watchglass : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
18:35 watchglass : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~
20:05 BingoBoingo Less than 24 hours till halving if block production rate holds steady
20:06 asciilifeform ha
20:06 asciilifeform iirc last coupla these had ~0 visible to naked eye effect
~ 29 minutes ~
20:36 Vexual so we're not watching bitcoinity for cool happening gifs?
20:36 asciilifeform bitcoinity ?
20:37 Vexual price chart website, they add gifs when all time high
20:37 * asciilifeform didn't give half a shit 10y ago, and doesn't now
20:39 asciilifeform all that interests asciilifeform re subj is the 'macroscopic'; i.e. the obv fact that exch rate aint gonna be 1e8 $ per suddenly. cuz the thing is controlled via the usual means .
20:39 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:56:14 asciilifeform: it worx because there's a neverending supply of a) dumb shits who see 'paper gold' as == to actual b) greedy shits who want 'leverage'
20:39 asciilifeform the 'omg111 it moved by 3%' i'ma leave to the speculator vermin
20:40 asciilifeform they -- can care, being paid to.
20:43 Vexual I'd forgotten block reward was halving
20:45 asciilifeform Vexual: these dun happen by surprise, y'know
20:45 asciilifeform nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);
20:45 asciilifeform init was 50.
20:46 Vexual how many unspent 50's?
20:46 asciilifeform 'exercise for reader'
20:46 asciilifeform been a while since i bothered to sum'em
20:47 * asciilifeform ftr doesn't buy into the old 'unspent for Y yrs means keyz surely lost!11' mythology
20:48 asciilifeform i have coin from '11 i haven't spent. what of it.
20:48 Vexual wuflu must've sent a few coins to the deep
20:48 asciilifeform what reason to think this ?
20:49 Vexual statistically speaking. might have
20:49 Vexual not must have
20:49 asciilifeform 'statistically speaking' my arse could fall through the floor.
20:49 asciilifeform right
20:50 asciilifeform Vexual: helps to also remember that what can be misplaced, can also be found .
20:50 asciilifeform the 'finds' have sometimes visible effect. the losses (being unpublic) do not .
20:51 Vexual visible and real obviously not the same
20:52 Vexual block reward halving effects are not for the visible eye as you said
20:54 asciilifeform re effect of 'finds'.
20:54 asciilifeform see also the well-known effect of the spanish new world gold on spain in 16th c.
20:55 Vexual dafaq is bitcoinp?
20:56 asciilifeform Vexual: old gedankenexperiment of mine. a hypothetical bitcoin noad which forks off if coins thought to be shitoshi's are ever spent.
20:56 asciilifeform not partic. relevant per se to this thrd.
20:57 asciilifeform re effects of 'losing' and 'finding', given that the exch rates are a figment of collective psychosis, the 'visibility' in principle matters.
20:57 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-05 20:03:43 asciilifeform: ( there is no contradiction here, incidentally -- the paper serves both to inflate the perceived value, and to depress, when necessary . the latter is very easy to do w/ a value that is artificial to begin with)
20:57 Vexual I'll read that later.
21:03 Vexual exchange rate aside, at some point fees will be greater than block reward
21:03 asciilifeform think of it this way -- if a nuke sub transporting 500 tonnes of au goes down w/ melted reactor, making the metal unrecoverable for 1e4 yrs, not only will you an' i not likely hear about it, but it will have 0 detectable effect on 'market'. the folx printing the 'paper gold' will carry on printing, the ones buying bars, will end up with tungsten cores a little more often, is all
21:04 asciilifeform Vexual: fees? maybe 20y from nao
21:04 Vexual well it's already happened on occassion
21:05 Vexual dya think satoshi would change the halving algo with time machine?
21:05 asciilifeform waiwat
21:05 Vexual some fuck sent 200 coin fee once i think i remember
21:05 asciilifeform and some unknown number of similar idjits dropped their privkeys into /dev/null , what of it
21:06 Vexual just a bit of trivia
21:06 Vexual i think the mine might've even returned it,
21:06 Vexual go figure
21:07 asciilifeform it was, what, 8x the standard block reward at the time ? possib. considered it worth the 'pr'
21:08 mats who knows if fees can even support mining without a block subsidy
21:08 asciilifeform ohai mats. wb.
21:08 asciilifeform mats: what means 'support mining' ?
21:08 mats the growth in hash rate recently has been pedestrian compared to previous years
21:09 asciilifeform mining will still happen.
21:10 asciilifeform whether is eats gigawatts or terawatts , yes, depends on reward. but worked ok when it summed to kilowatts.
21:10 mats presumably the miners will eventually try a new chain when this one is juiced
21:10 asciilifeform afaik they already 'try chains'
21:10 Vexual chains been pretty fuckin solid so far
21:10 asciilifeform what's that mean ?
21:11 Vexual there has been one chain since inception
21:11 asciilifeform Vexual: didja sleep through the '17-'18 fork warz or wat
21:11 Vexual mustve
21:12 asciilifeform tsk.
21:12 Vexual look, the shits still working, if that doesn't amaze you more than the imaginary coal fire that runs the mines, fuck me
21:13 asciilifeform Vexual: what would count to you as 'stopped working' ?
21:13 Vexual can you imagine sanding next to that?
21:13 asciilifeform i.e. has 'gopher' 'stopped working' ?
21:13 Vexual god question
21:13 asciilifeform i used it not long ago
21:13 Vexual let me think on it
21:14 asciilifeform by some defs, it will still 'work' in 3000 a.d. by others, 'never worked'...
21:14 Vexual oh shit...
21:15 Vexual what's the block reward in 3000? goes to 0 right?
21:16 asciilifeform do the maffs eh
21:17 asciilifeform not esp. interesting q tho, block counter is 32bit lol
21:17 Vexual I don't remember it halving indefinitely.
21:18 asciilifeform Vexual:
21:18 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-10 20:45:21 asciilifeform: nSubsidy >>= (nHeight / 210000);
21:18 Vexual an aside
21:18 asciilifeform naturally it can't half if already 0 eh
21:18 mats they havent made a serious effort since bcash
21:19 asciilifeform 50*100000000 is 33bit long.
21:19 asciilifeform that's 33 'halvings' from '09 to fin.
21:19 asciilifeform (i.e. to 0)
21:20 asciilifeform mats: i admit that after the 1st btc giveaway (aka 'bcash') i tuned out, 0 of the later attempts afaik were even worth the evening to set up nodes for to milk'em
21:21 Vexual presumable theres still unmilked things I haven't heard of
21:21 asciilifeform Vexual: some folx walk train stations to pick up loose change, too
21:21 asciilifeform it's, i imagine, a living, for some
21:22 mats the halving is a precarious time for holders
21:23 asciilifeform why?
21:23 asciilifeform i srsly dun recall ~anyffin interesting directly attributable to any of the prev. halvings.
21:23 Vexual halvings mark time tho
21:24 asciilifeform motion of moon also marks time, lol, what of it
21:24 Vexual it's interesting, like the moon
21:24 mats miner economics are challenged, their income collapses while operational costs are unchanged
21:24 asciilifeform mats: what's it to holder tho ?
21:25 asciilifeform if 9 of 10 miners goes to mars and doesn't come back, i won't notice
21:25 mats if they turn off enough hash it'll ruin network usability for hours or weeks
21:25 asciilifeform scarcely anyone actually uses it tho
21:26 asciilifeform so oughta have said 'txers', rather than 'holders'
21:26 asciilifeform holders ~don't tx.
21:26 asciilifeform i for instance send a tx maybe erry other yr.
21:28 asciilifeform re miners off -- not clear to me what, other than proverbial nuke war, would actually give you suddenly 'month of unusable'
21:28 asciilifeform say hash rate drops 2x. so what, 20min per block instead of 10, until next adjust.
21:28 shinohai Miners switch off, diff falls, can use fpga's again :D
21:29 asciilifeform shinohai: use old pentium again!1111
21:29 * asciilifeform won't complain...
21:32 * shinohai wouldn't either ...
21:33 asciilifeform it's entertaining, really, all these imaginary 'problems' that go away after 10sec of arithmetic
21:33 asciilifeform yet folx studiously avoid thinking about the actual ones. cuz too depressing, i suppose
21:33 mats i'm thinking about what happened to atc
21:33 mats i'm sure you remember that
21:34 asciilifeform mats: what would have to happen to turn btc into atc, lol
21:34 asciilifeform asteroid ?
21:34 asciilifeform a pill for sha1, i suppose, would do it
21:34 asciilifeform *sha2
21:34 mats miner cartel tries to pump a new chain and 99% of current btc mining quits
21:34 asciilifeform 99% quits, we're back to, when, 2014 ?
21:35 asciilifeform btc worked a++, far as i'm concerned, in '14.
21:35 asciilifeform certainly not 'atc it in garage' level.
21:35 asciilifeform the variant of mass suicide by miners is only interesting to the suiciders
21:37 * asciilifeform suspects that the 'bcash' incident put even the dumbest miners off the taste of 'pump new chain' for a good while, if not permanently
21:37 mats frankly i thought losing the first billion dollars wouldve done it, but then they went in for more
21:38 asciilifeform afaik you'd need a genuine cryptocalypse, i.e. hard break in the algos, for this scenario
21:38 asciilifeform mats: could be diff. set of 'theys'
21:38 asciilifeform impossible to say from my chair
21:39 asciilifeform that's the thing, miners -- disposable, like indiv. bees in hive.
21:41 mats who knows
21:41 mats in other current events,
21:42 asciilifeform mats: iirc even ibm's ppc factory in ny state sold to china some time in last coupla yrs
21:42 asciilifeform meanwhile.
21:42 BingoBoingo By this time next year US wages will probably be competitive with Asia even if the work ethic isn't
21:42 asciilifeform lulzy 'maga' tho.
21:43 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: if rents also on par w/ asia, who'll notice
21:43 BingoBoingo Money printer goes Brrrrrrr
21:43 asciilifeform surely.
21:45 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: whole thing is lulzy. if i hadn't caught the plague personally, might've hardly noticed it existed.
21:45 asciilifeform disappointing 'apocalypse', would like money back!11
21:46 shinohai Be patient and wait for the murder hornets to propagate in greater numbers.
21:47 BingoBoingo lol, in updates to local news << more serious bomb apparently than initial "molotov" designation suggested
21:47 feedbot << The Montevideo Standard -- MIDES Audit Shows Probably Fraud On The Part Of Local NGOs, More Than 9 Million USD In Diverted Funds
21:48 asciilifeform shinohai: lol, waited for those since '98
21:48 BingoBoingo One local rag is reporting the possibility of using alpaca anti-bodies as an uncommon cold treatment
21:49 * BingoBoingo prepping to hop on cam in a bit
21:49 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i imagine analogous to the folx in ru pushing (ancient stockpile of) 'anti-flu' pharma as ditto
21:49 asciilifeform who has what old garbage lying around, will push -- that.
21:49 mats i can only imagine the fireworks if usg sanctions biz partners of huawei like tsmc
21:49 asciilifeform mats: wai would it sanction taiwan co.?
21:50 asciilifeform as if it somehow weren't usg's very own 'unsinkable carrier'(tm)
21:50 mats dunno, big orange gets dumb ideas in his head and does something stupid
21:50 mats like allegedly threatening the us ksa security agreement over shale
21:50 asciilifeform mats: only thing poor fella 'does from own head' involve golf
21:50 asciilifeform errything else -- perma-bureaucracy
21:51 asciilifeform the folx who 'o
21:51 asciilifeform 'omfg, president X did xyz' remind me of teenage gurlz who think their 'beloved actor' ~is~ the $character he plays
21:52 asciilifeform last us prez who 'tried to do from own head' afaik was kennedy.
21:52 asciilifeform and that went to the obv place.
21:53 mats ah yes the famous lizard hitler hypothesis
21:53 asciilifeform doesn't even req. lizard
21:54 asciilifeform 0 lizard in ye olde su, but do you think it was marasmatic brezhnev who e.g. started afgan war ?
21:55 mats the ussr is a mystery to me
21:56 asciilifeform wasn't so diff from current day usa. just diff set of animated cadavers 'in charge'
21:56 mats anyway, im curious about it like you mightve been about a hypothetical invasion of crimea
21:56 mats even though i wasnt born in tw
21:56 asciilifeform invaded, what, 5x, since the turks? i imagine will be again at some pt. it's primo real estate.
21:57 asciilifeform germans offed, what, 98% of sevastopol .
21:58 asciilifeform re tw -- nfi. the 1 fella i knew in meatspace from there, i asked 'so, ready to fight for motherland?' -- looked at me like i had cock instead of nose.
21:58 asciilifeform 'fight? we have 'dun shot,iknow seekrits' rehearsed daily'
21:58 mats their military is definitionally unready
21:59 asciilifeform what would it mean for island to 'be ready'
21:59 mats like so much as 80% manning in personnel slots
21:59 asciilifeform approx on par w/ u.s. army's, last i knew, %
22:00 asciilifeform (what with'em 'double counting' national guard units as 'army' )
22:00 mats lots of pomp and fanfare about american tanks and jets going to taipei late last year, but no mention how they'll rust in a hole somewhere and even odds of being turned on
22:01 asciilifeform supposing even shipped, rather than 'money moved, tanks ???'
22:01 asciilifeform last i knew 0 tanks produced in usa since '12
22:01 mats arms are generally about tribute but this time is particularly egregious now that conscription is being wound down
22:01 asciilifeform oh was it ?
22:01 * asciilifeform had nfi
22:01 asciilifeform afaik south kr still conscripts
22:02 mats theyve abandoned all pretense to military readiness
22:02 mats
22:02 asciilifeform догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r)
22:03 mats all the more confusing considering separatist interests
22:03 asciilifeform it aint clear to me what the point was (other than graft) of maintaining the pretense of 'ready against china'
22:03 mats propping up the taipei govt, for starters
22:03 asciilifeform the chinese could take tw if armed with bows & arrows, dun matter what on other end
22:04 asciilifeform ( 'why' is separate q )
22:05 asciilifeform on asciilifeform's home world we had the joke, 'mao will arm china with... stools and radios' 'stool to stand on, radio to say when to jump from it'
22:05 asciilifeform (notion being, mega-earthquake)
22:05 mats on a similar note, theyre shuttering existing (and under construction) nuclear reactors, in favor of... more natural gas shipments from beijing
22:05 asciilifeform so similar to eu
22:05 asciilifeform w/ china in role of usa
22:06 asciilifeform i suppose they will at some pt sign a formal surrender, like hk
22:06 asciilifeform and the price of hard drives won't even change..
22:07 * Vexual still awaits alf's journey to the east
22:07 Vexual alf in hk
22:07 asciilifeform Vexual: dafuq did asciilifeform lose in the east
22:07 Vexual dev money? idk
22:07 asciilifeform i dun recall losing anyffing there..
22:08 asciilifeform so to go and look for.
22:08 asciilifeform iirc even mp didn't bother, and he goes to erry possible shithole for religious reasons
22:08 Vexual ah, i see
22:08 Vexual religious?
22:08 asciilifeform y'know, his religion, w/ self in role of muhamed
22:09 Vexual I hadn't made that connection
22:11 Vexual having a wee vodka alf?
22:11 asciilifeform lolno, why
22:11 Vexual you're more vibrant than usual
22:11 asciilifeform writing ch20b just nao
22:11 Vexual 15 rework mustve been a work
22:12 asciilifeform took ~4d
22:13 Vexual futher fuel for the vodka assumtion
22:13 asciilifeform lolk
22:13 asciilifeform believe or not, 0 vodka involved in 15 either
22:13 Vexual at least not the second iteration
22:14 Vexual i'm joking. I can't parse ch1
22:15 asciilifeform i've yet to hear of anybody actually attempting ch1 an' then choking,but there's always a 1st
22:16 Vexual not attempting is a valid method
22:16 asciilifeform i aint aboutta insist
22:16 asciilifeform if you dun think you have any biz reading these, you likely dont
22:16 Vexual I should prolly dl all lessons now
22:17 asciilifeform won't hurt
22:17 Vexual although alf seems particularly insusceptible to webrot
22:17 * asciilifeform intends to offer'em on dead tree at some pt
22:18 Vexual `nubbins to print?
22:18 asciilifeform lol
22:18 asciilifeform print costs pennies
22:18 Vexual not even joking
22:18 asciilifeform less than e.g. pcb
22:18 * asciilifeform routinely has apalling crud printed & hardbound , just to take to bed
22:19 asciilifeform if i had a stove, could prolly stoke it for a winter or 2 with just these
22:20 asciilifeform prolly w/ just the ffa-related junk , thinking about it.
22:20 * Vexual finds it stanglely appalling alf don't have a fire
22:20 asciilifeform Vexual: fireplaces aint standard equip here
22:20 asciilifeform matchstick, recall, 'houses'
22:21 asciilifeform some folx have'em (1970s and prior construction)
22:22 * asciilifeform in conv. w/ brother : he: 'book out yet?' 'mine? nope' 'no, not yours. the chinese fellow's' 'which fellow' 'the 1 who is making career from yer www. you haven't found him just yet?'
22:23 Vexual ch1 prolly more parsable than stan brother convo
22:24 asciilifeform whats yer beef w/ch1 anyway ? 'too many letters'(tm)(r) ?
22:25 Vexual just haven't had a good look yet
22:25 asciilifeform wb ben_vulpes
22:25 Vexual ayo ben
22:25 ben_vulpes i am unpredictably woefully behind on logs
22:25 ben_vulpes what is mp's "foundation mess"?
22:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i can't speak for others, but my logs are pretty light
22:26 * ben_vulpes regrets the question immediately
22:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i have nfi specifically. i imagine he expects some sorta instrument of surrender from jurov
22:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i suspect jurov also 'regretted question', lol
22:26 ben_vulpes 'no ragrats', as we said when i was a bairn.
22:27 Vexual hows the wee bairns?
22:28 ben_vulpes i have a somewhat more prosaic question; i gather from questioning others in my wot that i should probably not consider mixing microcontrollers and NICs if i want something working in human time. asciilifeform; have ye commentary or insight to shed?
22:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'beefy' micros tend to come w/ internal nics
22:28 asciilifeform pic32mz for instance.
22:29 asciilifeform just needs pins brought out to transformer & jack
22:29 asciilifeform afaik they dun have a Gb/s variant just nao. but marvell made 'pogo', did
22:29 asciilifeform never was able to source the latter in bobbins tho
22:30 asciilifeform never found 1 that didn't rely on dma tho, in any micro variant
22:31 Vexual set the problem in clear human form if you please
22:31 asciilifeform ( at least, unlike the pc crapola, they do publish their init specs , tho..)
22:31 ben_vulpes frankly i'm so behind the curve on this aspect of my education that i think i'm better off snipping complexity aggressively and reintroducing it selectively as i find compelling cases
22:31 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: are you even 100% certain that you need ethernet ?
22:31 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: no!
22:32 ben_vulpes Vexual: well there's an effector, and i need to get it commands.
22:32 asciilifeform wainot e.g. rs485.
22:32 asciilifeform or ye olde rs232, a la fg.
22:33 ben_vulpes other nodes said 'uart'
22:33 asciilifeform there's yer uart.
22:33 asciilifeform complete (well, tx) uart...
22:33 ben_vulpes naively, "i'm going to have to network them eventually" "dummy, focus on making something first"
22:34 asciilifeform make 1st.
22:34 Vexual ie, hardware solution
22:34 asciilifeform then get bogged down in protocol sads.
22:35 asciilifeform could spend fucking ~year implementing e.g. even usb1. i did...
22:35 ben_vulpes which leads me to my second question for asciilifeform tonight; have you blessed a 'microcontroller board' for use with ada? what remains of my sense of honor from the first republic recoils at the notion of "simply compiling c or rust" for use with the common-or-garden boards on the market.
22:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'm partial to pic32 series , cuz simple instr set
22:36 asciilifeform have a half-done gnat for one of'em, even
22:37 asciilifeform fucking hate, otoh, arm
22:37 asciilifeform with, what , 700+ instrs & counting
22:37 asciilifeform try an' implement a working arm.
22:37 asciilifeform whereas mips fits in e.g. 'ice40' fpga & leaves room.
22:37 asciilifeform ( this for 'fits in head' + for say , when you can't source the ic anymoar.. )
22:38 asciilifeform before you laff, this ~happend~ to the mc68k aficionados
22:38 asciilifeform from 1 of world's most common cpu archs, to 'where do i buy even old one?'
22:38 asciilifeform iirc BingoBoingo personally was hit by this
22:38 ben_vulpes high level i need something that eats from uart and shits to same (albeit different pins) and that's ~it
22:39 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: also smoked museum pieces generating rsa keys
22:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: crib from fg src then
22:39 asciilifeform see earlier link.
22:39 asciilifeform thing shits to uart all day, erry day...
22:39 asciilifeform gens own baud clock too
22:40 * asciilifeform realizes that his handmade proto-FG is possibly the longest contin.-powered piece of gear in his torture room...
22:40 Vexual not for sale any more tho
22:41 * ben_vulpes should know better. goes to castle alfenstein for advice on running ada on small chips of computronium; leaves with conundrum of 'should ams reorient face and mind and butt towards fpga?'
22:41 asciilifeform Vexual: the folx who bought up the junkyard still selling , last i knew
22:41 asciilifeform Vexual: if yer short 1, talk to'em
22:41 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: depends what yer doing!
22:42 asciilifeform if contin. to stay 'silent like partizan', will get shite advice, what can do
22:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if yer in a dire hurry, ave1's gnat builds a raw-mips gcc w/ 1 ln of config change
22:42 ben_vulpes need to eat some amount of serial data defining a pair of coords and then shit those coords out on another serial port; it's nigh trivial. would like, however, to use this as an autodidactic and toolchain prototyping exercise for more devices in the same vein.
22:43 asciilifeform you'll have to sit down w/ the datashit for yer chip and make defs of 'volatiles' for the particular registers etc tho
22:43 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if that -- than straight to fpga.
22:43 asciilifeform is what e.g. FG does.
22:43 Vexual how far texas to dc?
22:43 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ice40 demo for instance
22:44 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ~20 $ board .
22:44 asciilifeform fits small cpu. and maybe 35 FG's...
22:45 ben_vulpes heh this is ultimate 'rtos'
22:45 asciilifeform open ('opensores') toolchain, unlike xilinx's
22:45 asciilifeform iirc demands py3, but was the only headache there
22:45 asciilifeform indeed, it dun get anymore 'realtime'
22:46 asciilifeform can get deterministic delays pin to pin measured in nsec
22:47 ben_vulpes how would you start analyzing tradeoff of 'high level lang' a la ada vs i don't even know what the upside to biting off fpga toolchain is
22:47 asciilifeform there's an obv upside to fpga
22:47 Vexual
22:47 asciilifeform -- that it aint a von neumann comp, no 'interrupts', 'crashes'
22:47 asciilifeform it either worx , approx., or doesn't
22:48 asciilifeform for 'box takes N bits, gives M other bits, in S millisec, in 30loc' it's straight to fpga.
22:49 ben_vulpes determinism and fistinhead the largest wins from fpga?
22:49 asciilifeform indeed
22:49 asciilifeform that + that you're cured of vendor dependence, in principle can go to tmsc an' get it siliconized, nao or in 2030
22:49 asciilifeform and it'll run
22:50 asciilifeform whether you can get away w/ fpgaism depends intimately on what yer thing needs to do to those N bits to make those M
22:50 asciilifeform if it's a coupla shifts, adds, xor's -- yes. if it's rsa, prolly not
22:51 asciilifeform ( i couldn't find fpga that'd hold a 4096b barrel shifter for any amt of money )
22:51 asciilifeform and prices go from penny to 100k$+
22:51 ben_vulpes thorny problem
22:51 asciilifeform depends on # of gates
22:51 Vexual
22:51 ben_vulpes in what situations do 'microcontrollers' win?
22:52 ben_vulpes or put another way, what advantages do they have over fpga work?
22:52 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: when you have existing coad for conventional-style comp, for instance
22:52 asciilifeform e.g. ffa
22:52 asciilifeform when you dun care how many nsec from pin to pin
22:53 asciilifeform when you want item to cost 10cents rather than 10bux
22:53 asciilifeform (micros are vastly cheaper per 'horse')
22:53 asciilifeform when you want to plant linux on the box
22:53 asciilifeform most folx take micro over fpga, even when it dun make logical sense
22:53 asciilifeform lotsa 'programmer' types are phobic of circuit design
22:53 asciilifeform (even when req's 0 solder)
22:54 asciilifeform i've found flashlights w/ 8bit micros in'em.
22:54 ben_vulpes it's all just maffs, i dun understand the hesitation
22:54 Vexual time not important
22:55 asciilifeform well, if yer running at multiple Mhz, then have to care re gate delays, for instance
22:55 ben_vulpes i'm going to focus on the effector controller for now
22:55 asciilifeform have to open (gasp) a b00k, and find outwhat 'domain crossing' is. and so on
22:55 Vexual dead tree ftw
22:57 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: have a taste.
22:58 ben_vulpes i dunno that i'm necessarily phobic of 'circuit design', but i am certainly wary of getting ratholed in technological duck cunts. one of the compelling ideologies from the first republic was 'tear their arms off and beat them to death with 'em'
22:58 ben_vulpes there's no chip getting made sans a windows toolchain, neh? attempting else is tilting
22:58 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 1 of the appeals is that's it's a shallow hole.
22:58 asciilifeform i've made 0 chip, but have fpgaisms on desk right nao w/ 0 winblowz in the loop anywhere.
22:58 ben_vulpes you say 'shallow hole' in one breath and 'book and domain crossing' in another
22:59 Vexual my word you cunts clack fast
22:59 Vexual smokin keyboards is it wot
23:00 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: e.g. FG's controller (albeit w/ evil turdware toolchain for linux, then, for xilinx) from mp's prodding to production in <8wks
23:00 asciilifeform there's ~0 concept of 'debug' tho, in fpgaism. you can simulate, or prod the chip w/ oscope, but very little in between
23:00 asciilifeform so most of work is to actually think when you write.
23:01 ben_vulpes yes yes
23:01 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: how much had you in your head before?
23:01 asciilifeform the serpent demo is good intro, there is link re what the c & ada proggies looked like, and then how it was simmed, and inputs/outputs
23:01 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 0
23:01 ben_vulpes nfw
23:01 ben_vulpes i disberieve
23:02 asciilifeform i guess not quite 0, knew what iwanted the thing to do. but presumably you also know for yours
23:02 asciilifeform observe that you can simulate w/out buying any physicals
23:02 asciilifeform as pictured in linked piece.
23:03 ben_vulpes my physicals woes aren't 20 fpga chips, but good to know
23:03 ben_vulpes fuuuuuck but open source cad is bad.
23:04 asciilifeform right, presumably you already own whatever shits an' eats those signals
23:04 Vexual
23:04 ben_vulpes right, servo libary grows day by day.
23:04 * ben_vulpes hopes to avoid 'silent like partizan', but mustest exercise a skosh of discretion.
23:05 asciilifeform this btw is another + of fpgaism. can simulate 'to nanosecond'. for afaik 0 micro is this avail. (tho some vendors offer turdware for $$$)
23:05 ben_vulpes notrly a design goal; not shooting for high speed cnc here
23:06 Vexual not cnc we get it. what is it?
23:06 asciilifeform for e.g. rocket vanes, need within mSec . for pu pit implosion detonator, within 100nsec. (hey it worked in '40s, they had no fpga..)
23:07 ben_vulpes and this is why i'm putting in the time to think and ask; i'm still putting bounds on the problems and what tools get me how far along which trajectories.
23:07 asciilifeform put, put
23:07 Vexual peek. poke
23:08 asciilifeform 1c of proper bounds is worth megabux of 'let's do!1111'
23:08 ben_vulpes << fukkin triggered
23:08 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you jinxed the selector kludge
23:09 ben_vulpes i lost my first-republic-era workstation to precisely "the minute you try `emerge --sync`..."
23:09 asciilifeform plox to regen that link
23:09 asciilifeform aa
23:09 asciilifeform ?
23:10 ben_vulpes
23:10 asciilifeform got it
23:10 ben_vulpes fascinating
23:10 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the js kludge loses the link if you click outside of the sel
23:10 ben_vulpes just saw same
23:11 ben_vulpes fucking www is the penultimate duck cunt. will eat entire humans alive effecting the most trivial shit.
23:11 Vexual seriously, i wanna sell benalf kbs.
23:11 asciilifeform ( mp, of all people, actually 1 time wrote a server-side selector thing , but it dun work w/ indiv. lines of coad in <pre>... so i cant use.. )
23:11 ben_vulpes Vexual: "ergodox ez"
23:11 Vexual really?
23:11 asciilifeform Vexual: 'model f'
23:11 Vexual fuck that
23:11 * Vexual goes to lok
23:11 ben_vulpes i have a reproduction of that on order
23:12 asciilifeform ugh the 1 w/out the f keys ?
23:12 asciilifeform no ty
23:12 asciilifeform i've the proper 122k.
23:12 ben_vulpes my generation is poor, we've done this thread to death in the old wankpublic, can skip this time
23:12 asciilifeform ( sadly can't buy'em anymoar, even heavily beaten ones. and mine i had to not only clean, but... paint, lol )
23:13 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: dunno, i spend ~100 $. and most of it was for paint.
23:13 asciilifeform in particular the conductive anti-rf paint aint cheap
23:13 asciilifeform prettysure yer 'ergo' cost > .
23:13 ben_vulpes i'll buy time
23:14 asciilifeform lolk
23:14 ben_vulpes ergo buys me time in pilot seat; without something of this shape i'm done with this line of work in another five years
23:15 asciilifeform strangely i never have this prob
23:15 asciilifeform lotsa folx for somereason do tho
23:15 ben_vulpes i envy you!
23:15 ben_vulpes rat is the sole point of pain; maginificently bad after a day of cad
23:16 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i bought phf's sphere thing
23:16 asciilifeform worx wonderz for 'rat arm'
23:16 ben_vulpes "can you open this jar for me lover?" "i mean i can but i really don't want do" "what do you mean?" "well i'm entirely strong enough but the wrist is aflame and i don't need more accrued damage"
23:16 asciilifeform subj
23:16 Vexual
23:16 ben_vulpes the radius is so large that i found it caused just as much pain
23:17 ben_vulpes and the scroll ergonomics are utterly impossible
23:17 ben_vulpes drag and drop is pointless too
23:17 asciilifeform hm you tried that very ball ?
23:17 asciilifeform dunno, worx for me. even for cad.
23:17 asciilifeform ifyer wrist is this nuked, maybe try wacom.
23:17 ben_vulpes mine, i admit, does not have scroll
23:17 ben_vulpes so click, drag
23:18 asciilifeform aa i got the 1 phf recced, w/ the roller
23:18 asciilifeform smoothest scroll knob ever saw
23:18 ben_vulpes somehow missed memo on this
23:18 asciilifeform literally like vernier on leica microscope
23:18 asciilifeform will almost turn if you blow on it
23:18 ben_vulpes oh don't be ridiculous
23:18 asciilifeform the ball, similar
23:18 Vexual precision is invaluable
23:19 asciilifeform mine is set so that 360deg of ball goes across 4 lcd (~8000 pixel)
23:19 Vexual
23:20 asciilifeform rec to turn off 'mouse acceleration' in x11
23:20 asciilifeform and holyfuq, i cant even picture trying to use 1 of these w/out the wheel
23:20 asciilifeform i think fingers would get gangrene
23:21 ben_vulpes this was my mistake, yes
23:21 Vexual best trackball hasnt been invented yet
23:21 asciilifeform try the proper item
23:21 ben_vulpes cst meanwhile out of business
23:21 asciilifeform no?!!
23:22 * asciilifeform takes off hat
23:22 asciilifeform i'd bet there's still on shelf somewhere tho.
23:23 ben_vulpes "pi engineering" now owns the brand, is out of stock on everything interesting
23:23 asciilifeform 'ebay' then
23:23 ben_vulpes it was a brilliant piece of hardware, simply could not tolerate life without a scroll wheel
23:24 ben_vulpes thought placement was remarkably stupid on far side of ball, but asciilifeform attests otherwise?
23:24 asciilifeform mine's symmetric
23:24 ben_vulpes on far side from torso
23:24 asciilifeform the wheel turned w/ index or ring finger
23:24 asciilifeform i also like that (unlike in most mice) it doesn't double as 3rd button
23:24 asciilifeform (button -- physically separate)
23:25 asciilifeform also has 2 jacks for standard (3.5mm mono) pedals
23:26 Vexual
23:26 asciilifeform Vexual: i gotta admit, i ~never look at these
23:27 asciilifeform ( typically i'm on a box w/out audio card, lol )
23:27 Vexual no new info alf
23:28 Vexual i'm quite content talking to myself
23:31 ben_vulpes @jur
23:31 Vexual right?
23:32 ben_vulpes jurov: please to report in re "tbf mess"; don't hold luls in abeyance
23:32 * ben_vulpes off to mull this fpga knot-cut
23:32 Vexual mullaway brother
23:32 asciilifeform nighty ben_vulpes
23:33 * asciilifeform also off soon
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