| 00:22 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EEAF0C080A5248C89F5ABC79A7074B1223A1E0F6C65017CFEC04851F7D185119 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1419...0313 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '24.248.149.27 (ssh-rsa key from 24.248.149.27 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.wtcusa.net. US KS) |
| 00:22 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EEAF0C080A5248C89F5ABC79A7074B1223A1E0F6C65017CFEC04851F7D185119 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1532...1037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '24.248.149.27 (ssh-rsa key from 24.248.149.27 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.wtcusa.net. US KS) |
| |
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~ |
| 01:38 |
BingoBoingo |
!~ticker --market all |
| 01:39 |
jhvh1 |
BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2435.53, vol: 16169.46593995 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2328.025, vol: 8680.62128 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2327.35006495, vol: 17231.92501498 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2557.530469, vol: 17308.49040000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2423.148, vol: 9548.44559952 | Volume-weighted last average: 2423.86832475 |
| 01:41 |
mircea_popescu |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-02#1664465 << what the label says, within a coupla feet of the thing. no idea what your definition of "porn chicks" is, but the item here discussed is 15 to 30yo female, no further filters. |
| 01:41 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-02 03:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whatddayamean 'bed always within physical reach' |
| |
~ 24 minutes ~ |
| 02:05 |
* |
BingoBoingo imagines alf "porn chick" construction is a redundant labeling like "covetous Jew" |
| 02:06 |
mircea_popescu |
well.,.. some jooz are rich... |
| 02:07 |
BingoBoingo |
They still covet, It's in their nature |
| 02:12 |
mircea_popescu |
btw, did you see the hebrew hammer ? |
| 02:13 |
BingoBoingo |
Not that I remember, but I did see an awesome swarm of bees today. |
| 02:13 |
mircea_popescu |
notbad comedy. somewhat in the vein of leslie nielsen's stuff. |
| 02:14 |
BingoBoingo |
One very happy contractor is now a few hundred bees richer |
| 02:14 |
BingoBoingo |
I may have to carve out the time to see it. |
| |
~ 27 minutes ~ |
| 02:41 |
mircea_popescu |
http://qntra.net/2017/05/gianforte-and-sanity-prevail-in-montana-referendum-on-self-defense/#comment-99280 << problem is... how do you report on something liek that. |
| 02:42 |
mircea_popescu |
i suppose could keep calling the everyone in dnc to "comment on" the thing. sort-of like how fake news / new york times does it... |
| 02:48 |
jurov |
radeon opensource driver works decently here. but kernel config alone is not enough, you have to feed it correct firmware as described in $manual, too |
| |
↖ |
| 02:48 |
BingoBoingo |
Well maybe commenter ends up reporting on story in the comments? |
| 02:53 |
deedbot |
http://qntra.net/2017/06/trump-deals-blow-to-international-pantsuit-party-with-withdrawal-from-paris-accord/ << Qntra - Trump Deals Blow To International Pantsuit Party With Withdrawal From Paris Accord |
| 02:58 |
deedbot |
http://trilema.com/2017/qntra-sqntr-may-2017-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) May 2017 Statement |
| |
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~ |
| 04:01 |
mircea_popescu |
BingoBoingo "the accord which being quit" ? |
| 04:01 |
mircea_popescu |
whole piece needs a re-read, lotta e2l weird in there. |
| |
~ 4 hours 39 minutes ~ |
| 08:41 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-02#1664501 << blobware != open |
| 08:41 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-02 06:48 jurov: radeon opensource driver works decently here. but kernel config alone is not enough, you have to feed it correct firmware as described in $manual, too |
| 08:42 |
asciilifeform |
and it's shit blobware, too, vertical screens dun work with acceleration |
| 08:44 |
trinque |
appeared to keep working over here |
| 08:44 |
trinque |
when I randr'd 90 degrees |
| 08:44 |
trinque |
but then there's "radeon" and "radeonsi" |
| 08:44 |
trinque |
blobware yes, though. something like 16 fucking firmware files |
| 08:45 |
asciilifeform |
it blows my mind that folx consider these somehow 'open'. |
| 08:46 |
asciilifeform |
the blobuline nics ditto |
| 08:46 |
trinque |
has some like, files to compile and they go zoom in the terminal |
| 08:46 |
trinque |
totally hackery |
| 08:47 |
asciilifeform |
'it sits on my front bus and can do whatever it wants and has 400 cores that run fuckknkwswhat, but at least the util for loading up (some) of the cores with liquishit, is open source!!' |
| 08:48 |
trinque |
yeah exactly. it's a participatory democracy of a computer, gotta expect to share |
| 09:02 |
asciilifeform |
trinque: which radeon did you have ? |
| 09:03 |
asciilifeform |
every single one i ever tried, worked poorly or not at all with multiple-vertical-outs |
| 09:06 |
trinque |
ah I'm not running multiple vertical screens. |
| 09:06 |
trinque |
but rx480 |
| 09:06 |
asciilifeform |
aah |
| 09:06 |
asciilifeform |
in other noose, obummer buys 8.1m $ mega-house. |
| |
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~ |
| 10:17 |
phf |
you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks. |
| |
↖ ↖ |
| 10:17 |
mod6 |
mornin' |
| 10:21 |
phf |
i've been to social events at these houses, and they are just glorified mcmansions. i was actually wondering about these mega-houses last time i recently took a trip to Fallingwater. who now among "the wealthy" is building these kaufmann residences that in 100 years time people will want to visit? |
| 10:29 |
phf |
oh, i know this area, obama's neighborhood is 5 minutes walking from me, it's all old construction, so not so much a "mega-house" as a large&old dc property (apparently made from real stone!1) |
| 10:31 |
phf |
those houses are nifty, because built by sane people until a contractor gets to "renovate" the interior |
| 10:41 |
asciilifeform |
phf: i've been inside a bunch of these, but only on embassy expo day |
| 10:42 |
asciilifeform |
they feel like houses on home planet ( proper height of ceiling, the correct 100+ y.o. 'old sofa' smell, steam heat, etc ) |
| |
~ 15 minutes ~ |
| 10:57 |
* |
shinohai lives in 105 yr old house, but revels in the whole "no formaldehyde" smell. |
| |
~ 18 minutes ~ |
| 11:15 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-02#1664526 << gotta ask, why not -- by same logic -- derive inflation rate from usd-btc ? |
| 11:15 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-02 14:17 phf: you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks. |
| 11:19 |
asciilifeform |
it is tempting to think of inflation as a scalar, but it isn't a scalar. |
| 11:29 |
asciilifeform |
re 'patek' etc, see also http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-22#1248284 . |
| 11:29 |
a111 |
Logged on 2015-08-22 14:05 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248273 << in my eyes, a ~skilled~ art forger is a hero second only to a hypothetical fella who puts an actual bullet through a bilderberger. why, exactly, should i have any sympathy for the folks hitching a ride in the only 100% effective inflation shelter known, at the expense of literally everybody else ? |
| 11:31 |
phf |
inflation is a dynamic process, so it's neither a scalar nor not a scalar |
| 11:32 |
asciilifeform |
paper-gold is mixed into the market valuation of all-gold, paper-bitcoin (though it only works on bottom half of bell curve...) into price of actual-bitcoin, but art forgers are hunted like terrorists, Because Reasons. |
| 11:32 |
asciilifeform |
phf: tensor!111 |
| 11:33 |
mircea_popescu |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-02#1664526 << i'm entirely shocked he didn't divorce. |
| 11:33 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-02 14:17 phf: you can buy a patek philippe caliber 89 from christie's for $11m. last time it went for $5m in 2009. at that inflation rate obummer bought a 2009 $4m house, which is a reasonable upper middle for potomac apparatchiks. |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform yes because reasons. REASONS == independent, as always. |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
wtf is "corruption" ? people-other-than-usg having control over property!!11 |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
wtf is you know, any OTHER crime ? there is no other crime. that's the crime. |
| 11:39 |
phf |
maybe they are planning on going for michelle 2020 after all |
| 11:41 |
mircea_popescu |
i have nfi how that worked, but it's pretty far out there. |
| 11:50 |
BingoBoingo |
<mircea_popescu> whole piece needs a re-read, lotta e2l weird in there. << re-read v1 |
| 11:52 |
mircea_popescu |
"Once again, while Trump the United States a smidge closer to The Great Again, but" |
| 11:53 |
BingoBoingo |
ty fxd |
| |
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~ |
| 13:17 |
mircea_popescu |
in other lulz ~nobody cares about : ucr (universidad de costa rica) is this massively dominant player. apparently it has 3`623 non-tenured, 1`726 tenured faculty. the former are bitchin' that they want "the same salary conditions" as the latter, which is very much representative of latino mental simplicity. |
| 13:18 |
mircea_popescu |
but the scandal exposed a coupla lulz, such as that the ucr spends 80% (!!!) of its income to pay salaries, and that income is ~500mn a year. |
| 13:28 |
asciilifeform |
usd? |
| 13:29 |
mircea_popescu |
ya |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
i had nfi there were 500mn usd in all of cr, not merely the obscure ( i had nfi it existed...) ucr |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
from where comes the dough ? usg parked a printing press down there ? |
| 13:31 |
mircea_popescu |
costa rica is a rich country dood. above ohio below arizona or somesuch. |
| 13:31 |
mircea_popescu |
you do realise that at least half the 50 us states are below average, in the sense most countries actually are doing better, yes ? |
| 13:32 |
asciilifeform |
half of'em are nearly empty, but for corn field and rocket base |
| 13:32 |
asciilifeform |
so not high bar. |
| 13:32 |
asciilifeform |
( ever look at usa from airplane ..? ) |
| 13:33 |
mircea_popescu |
so you know, made 50bn gdp, bout same as panama, 4x nicaragua. which is how come all the chicks in strip joints are nigaraguaneans. |
| 13:34 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally -- what does cr export ? |
| 13:34 |
mircea_popescu |
vacations |
| 13:34 |
asciilifeform |
aaah so it's one of those 'rich because that's where money goes to sit on the beach' places. |
| 13:34 |
mircea_popescu |
yup. pretty much entirely it. |
| 13:35 |
asciilifeform |
still doesn't explain why university. who attends it ? anyone publishes in it ? how does the setup work. |
| 13:35 |
mircea_popescu |
"highest level of foreign direct investment per capita of latin maerica", ie, a fine definition of whether you're poor or not is whether you have a gf here holding down a fort. |
| 13:36 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform sure, they publish the usual crud. it's where you pick up the girlies, mostly. |
| 13:36 |
asciilifeform |
sounds like 50s cuba |
| 13:36 |
asciilifeform |
possibly even with the attendant boojum waiting in the wings. |
| 13:36 |
mircea_popescu |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-27#1648233 << that was on the grounds, ECONOMIX faculty. |
| 13:36 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-04-27 02:15 mircea_popescu: his answer ? exito. (success). |
| 13:37 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, they export some ic / medical gear. but plenty of coffee banana etc. |
| 13:37 |
asciilifeform |
lol united fruit |
| 13:38 |
mircea_popescu |
hey, intel build a plant. |
| 13:38 |
asciilifeform |
'The Intel® Teach Program helps teachers integrate technology into their classrooms to enhance student learning. In Costa Rica, the Intel Teach Program is coordinated in collaboration with the Ministry of Public Education, was implemented by the Omar Dengo Foundation, and now is executed by CECC-SICA.' |
| 13:39 |
asciilifeform |
lulzy, 'hold the winblowz fort in the turd world' item |
| 13:39 |
asciilifeform |
( for aficionados : whole thing, http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/corporate-responsibility/intel-in-costa-rica.html ) |
| 13:39 |
asciilifeform |
'More than 60 percent of K-12 teachers in Costa Rica have participated in this program since the program started in 2000...' |
| 13:39 |
mircea_popescu |
they really don't have much of a clue. happy go lucky sort of tree dwellers. |
| 13:40 |
asciilifeform |
'See how the Intel® She Will Connect program is helping women change their lives.' << didjaknow!! |
| 13:40 |
shinohai |
so lulzy |
| 13:41 |
asciilifeform |
'On the heels of last year’s closure of chip manufacturer Intel‘s assembly plant in Costa Rica, the company announced Monday that it’s opening a new Client Computing Group (CCG) in Costa Rica. The new unit will be responsible mostly for developing tablets and PCs.' (2015) |
| 13:41 |
asciilifeform |
looks like mircea_popescu's intel is a little out of date.. |
| 13:42 |
asciilifeform |
plant moved to asia. what's left is jerbsprogram |
| 13:42 |
asciilifeform |
( why it remains - i have nfi; perhaps intel exec gurlz to holdthefort etc ) |
| 13:43 |
mircea_popescu |
prolly. |
| 13:45 |
mircea_popescu |
lol elon musk quit "forum on job creation" because hey, paris accord was major "job creation" wtf. |
| 13:47 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, back to cr, it's kinda funny. i recall their currency being reasonably stable, but since i've been here it shed about 10% against the dollar. so the natl bank is all "wtf is wrong with you people", put 1bn of the reserve on the market, etc. |
| 13:47 |
mircea_popescu |
this re whole "kinda clueless treefolk" |
| 13:48 |
asciilifeform |
i'd suppose that mircea_popescu is there for the good weather, not for the company of tree-dwellers |
| 13:48 |
mircea_popescu |
why not ? troglodyte female muchly preferable to ustarded female. |
| 13:49 |
mircea_popescu |
young people are going to be stupid, this is a given. might as well deal with the naive than with the millitantly idiotic. |
| 13:50 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: didja ever determine why in cr 'naive', but in ar 'militant idiotic' ? is the idiocy-ray emitter in antarctica, or wat |
| 13:51 |
mircea_popescu |
ah, peronismo. |
| 13:51 |
mircea_popescu |
generally speaking, homebrew nationalism is ~worst thing that can happen to a country. way worse than foreign invasion. |
| 13:52 |
asciilifeform |
lol, ukrs |
| 13:52 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
| 13:52 |
mircea_popescu |
it's what distinguishes say reddit and to some degree twitter from the average fucktard forum / website. dudes on reddit actually developed some sort of idiotarian self-identity on top of everything else. |
| 13:53 |
mircea_popescu |
so they go around you know, "we did it argentina!! sun rise!!!" and inqualifiably dumb shit like that. |
| 13:54 |
asciilifeform |
do perons appear in empty vacuum tho |
| 13:54 |
asciilifeform |
picture if the ameritourism were to evaporate in cr. how long before it peronizes. |
| 13:55 |
mircea_popescu |
dude's epitaph is this : he once claimed that when he took power there were all these sacks of gold and dollars and wealth, "hanging around, clearly being misused -- cuz not used to levantar el pueblo" etc. |
| 13:55 |
mircea_popescu |
THAT is how they appear, when there's too much wealth and too little noose for the poor to go with it. |
| 13:56 |
mircea_popescu |
exactly how it appeared in moscow, too. had the tzar fucking hung twenty million uppity bitches, starting with half of georgia, there'd have not been any problem. |
| 13:56 |
asciilifeform |
ottomans also |
| 13:56 |
mircea_popescu |
everyone. |
| 13:56 |
asciilifeform |
one tricky bit, afaik, is that the proverbial sacks of gold do not 'levantar el pueblo' under any circumstances at all; instead they immediately grow legs and walk, walk away to a faraway place and never again seen |
| 13:57 |
mircea_popescu |
and it's not like they're not asking for it and everything. |
| 13:57 |
mircea_popescu |
recall that time when they stomped each other on some field ? |
| 13:57 |
asciilifeform |
the ecuador war ? |
| 13:57 |
* |
mircea_popescu would have ordered ALL the participants hung. what did czar do ? apologize ? |
| 13:57 |
mircea_popescu |
you don't fucking apologize to the cow herd for IT having stampeded. |
| 13:57 |
mircea_popescu |
next fucking time, stay home, or if you come FUCKING BEHAVE |
| 13:58 |
mircea_popescu |
filthy bitchez... |
| 13:58 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform the khodynka field poorfucktardfest. |
| 14:00 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, point being they're asking, and if you dun answer then dun be surprised. |
| 14:01 |
asciilifeform |
when you have stampedes in the capital, you ( ruler/civ1player ) Have A Problem ; just as d00d with tumour that is large enough to be palpable, has problem |
| 14:01 |
mircea_popescu |
unlike tumour, this problem is very approachable. |
| 14:01 |
mircea_popescu |
sure, once you have 500`000 dead bodies in a pile it's time to build a new church and beg forgiveness for having let things get this far. |
| 14:02 |
mircea_popescu |
but nicholas was just ascending, it wasn't his fucking fault alexander was a faggot. |
| 14:04 |
asciilifeform |
unless yer rounding up ~defenseless gypos etc , 500kilocorpse is called 'civil war' and it doesn't come with a guarantee of win |
| 14:04 |
mircea_popescu |
500k idiots who stampede themselves to death vs hussar regiments ? really ? |
| 14:04 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess i'm beheading even more people. |
| 14:05 |
asciilifeform |
i suppose mircea_popescu is posting from parallel universe where 1917 didn't happen |
| 14:05 |
mircea_popescu |
this was 1896. the REASON 1917 happened was that nicholas was a fucktard in 1896. |
| 14:05 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. followed the pitchforks-vs-landsknecht dynamic pictured above |
| 14:05 |
mircea_popescu |
had he fired all available artillery into the crowd, there'd have been no fucking bs. |
| 14:06 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform no, exactly opposite. |
| 14:06 |
mircea_popescu |
the populace had to have a clear statement of its fault, and punishment comensurate. this is what government is. |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
what he did was, he failed to punish them for their misbehaviour, from which they concluded, quite in the infantile manner of subhumans, that tyhey had done nothing wrong |
| 14:07 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally ivan iv did try this exact thing |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
and that there's some room for them to "make judgements" and whatnot. |
| 14:07 |
asciilifeform |
( spoiler : didn't work ) |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
and i don't seem to recall his problems with the fucking reds. |
| 14:07 |
mircea_popescu |
worked fine, what are you talking about. |
| 14:14 |
asciilifeform |
from this pov.. worked. |
| 14:14 |
mircea_popescu |
well that's the pov. |
| 14:16 |
asciilifeform |
the larger point also good one -- any problem ( short of perhaps asteroid ) starts small and spends good chunk of its life cycle in curable phase |
| 14:17 |
mircea_popescu |
and the need for the cure is constantly signalled, and the cure always is exactly that : round them all up and hang them. |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
nor is this only the problem of governance. for years before sham ustardian marriage ends in divorce wife begs for some checks, which husband doesn't provide because idiot ; but then really has no one else to blame. |
| 14:18 |
mircea_popescu |
before growing up to be stupid, kids spend their childhood begging for some guidance. and so following. |
| 14:20 |
mircea_popescu |
fucking "demonstrations" and whatnot. what are they "demonstrating" ? that "oh look, you're not going to drive the tanks through us!11 like you fucking should!!111 awell, i guess you're not fit to rule then huh." |
| 14:20 |
mircea_popescu |
doh. |
| 14:22 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2014-01-26#461120 << see also thread |
| 14:22 |
a111 |
Logged on 2014-01-26 19:37 asciilifeform: just as the chinese replied, in '89, to 'why tanks?', with 'we aren't the u.s., can't afford warehouses full of "humane" riot gear' |
| 14:22 |
mircea_popescu |
fuck that retarded deflective shit. |
| 14:22 |
asciilifeform |
they passed the exam tho. |
| 14:22 |
asciilifeform |
su -- flunked |
| 14:22 |
mircea_popescu |
sure. |
| 14:23 |
mircea_popescu |
well, su really needed new government. the "socialist" bullshit only runs so far. |
| 14:23 |
mircea_popescu |
unlike the eurotards, they got out relatively early, 1 century in. |
| 14:24 |
asciilifeform |
not clear, at least to asciilifeform's naked eye, that they 'got out', or that the box even has an out-hole |
| 14:24 |
asciilifeform |
( ru still has crown-as-principle-economic-agent megastate, for instance ) |
| 14:24 |
asciilifeform |
*principal |
| 14:25 |
mircea_popescu |
im really not that familiar |
| 14:29 |
mircea_popescu |
but if i had to guess i'd say a larger % of all-wealth-controlled-by-russians belongs to "criminals" and "terrorists" than is the case of the us. |
| 14:30 |
mircea_popescu |
which is the ~only criteria of respectability. |
| 14:30 |
asciilifeform |
how 'respectable' when most of'em are still l1/l2 of su wot. |
| 14:30 |
mircea_popescu |
this per se isn't a problem. |
| 14:31 |
asciilifeform |
and it also isn't clear to me why -- even when the corpse really Musted Die -- maggots are somehow 'respectable' |
| 14:31 |
asciilifeform |
they eat carrion, yes. |
| 14:32 |
mircea_popescu |
but of course they'd be within su wot. that's how these light states work. |
| 14:41 |
ben_vulpes |
john robb on an entirely new trip: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2017/06/man-is-dead-and-we-have-killed-him-you-and-i.html |
| 14:42 |
mircea_popescu |
lemme guess, nietzsche ? |
| 14:43 |
ben_vulpes |
that's the quote, yes |
| 14:43 |
ben_vulpes |
"perhaps outlawing masculinity is a bad idea?" |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
o i know, let's plead like a little bitch, that'll do something. |
| 14:44 |
mircea_popescu |
how about "man ain't interested in your dumb bitch hut, starve." |
| 14:45 |
mircea_popescu |
"We are killing masculinity. Maleness in all its forms has been deprecated as an outdated bit of software. Something to be rewritten for the modern world." |
| 14:45 |
ben_vulpes |
OCEANS OF BLOOOOOOOOOOD |
| 14:45 |
mircea_popescu |
self important little cunts. what the everloving fuck, "look at me, i live without a roof, WE HAVE DEPRECATED ROOVES!!11" |
| 14:45 |
mircea_popescu |
hurr. |
| 14:46 |
asciilifeform |
for some reason atlases only ever shrug in bad megab00x by ru emigre chix, tho. and not in actual reality. |
| 14:46 |
mircea_popescu |
maleness in its you know, male form is doing fucking fine, and doesn'tr care about the stupid tea party. |
| 14:47 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform the tiresome faggots who keedp going "oh mom, i too could be an atlas couldn't i ? i'm tall enough ?" are no fucking object of this discussion. |
| |
~ 22 minutes ~ |
| 15:09 |
shinohai |
http://archive.is/agUVE "Y U discriminate against me!!!!!" |
| 15:10 |
mod6 |
got this FG #2 hooked up to the scope |
| 15:11 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: hm? |
| 15:11 |
asciilifeform |
( you want logic analyzer, or at the very minumum : storage scope , for this , not much periodic wave to be had on FG ) |
| 15:11 |
mod6 |
got the probe setup on the out pin. been waiting to try this. just didn't incause I fuck it up. |
| 15:12 |
mod6 |
*in case |
| 15:12 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: put the trigger on clock (CLK) pin |
| 15:12 |
asciilifeform |
all signals on the board (other than the 2 coming from rngs ) are in that clock domain |
| 15:12 |
mod6 |
this scope has a usb port, so i dropped in the USB to see if I can get the output saved on there. gotta rtfm i think |
| 15:13 |
asciilifeform |
what do you hope to see on the scope, mod6 ? thing puts out 115200,8,1,noparity |
| 15:14 |
asciilifeform |
( not, as you can already guess, contiguously -- but when there's a byte ready ) |
| 15:14 |
mod6 |
im more... using it as a vehicle to learn how to scope. |
| 15:14 |
asciilifeform |
aah |
| 15:14 |
mod6 |
aha, clock has basic predictible pattern. |
| 15:15 |
mod6 |
'out' is pretty chatty too though |
| 15:15 |
asciilifeform |
try displaying clock and output in parallel |
| 15:15 |
mod6 |
i do have two probes... |
| 15:15 |
* |
mod6 tries |
| 15:15 |
asciilifeform |
( output has peridic component !! -- the start/stop bits ) |
| 15:15 |
asciilifeform |
they're why a misbauded FG is nogood as an rng |
| 15:17 |
mircea_popescu |
and in other artificial inteligence, https://archive.is/0IIyG |
| 15:17 |
mod6 |
oh huh! |
| 15:17 |
mod6 |
i gotta take a pic here i think, but yah, two distinct different wave patterns. |
| 15:17 |
mod6 |
@20 ns |
| 15:31 |
mod6 |
http://www.mod6.net/fg/fg-test/20170602_142155.jpg http://www.mod6.net/fg/fg-test/20170602_142450.jpg |
| 15:31 |
mod6 |
sorry for the yuuuge |
| 15:34 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno wtf this is. |
| 15:36 |
mod6 |
yellow (channel 1) is the clk output; blue (channel 2) is the 'out' output from the fg |
| 15:36 |
mod6 |
mircea_popescu: just kinda takin a look at things, nothing in particular. educational. |
| 15:40 |
mircea_popescu |
so the clock transitions ~0.1ms ; but the output dun seem rightr |
| 15:40 |
mircea_popescu |
wtf values are those. |
| 15:40 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: your ground is loose |
| 15:40 |
mod6 |
haha, i dun think im doin it right. |
| 15:40 |
asciilifeform |
you're seeing mains hum !! |
| 15:41 |
asciilifeform |
( there are no sinusoids to be had on that board ) |
| 15:41 |
mod6 |
ah. |
| 15:41 |
asciilifeform |
to what did you attach the black crocodile ? |
| 15:41 |
mod6 |
nada. wasn't sure on that. |
| 15:42 |
asciilifeform |
this might be kindergarten item , but : |
| 15:42 |
asciilifeform |
a voltage is a potential ~difference~ |
| 15:42 |
mod6 |
yah, im extreme n00b at this |
| 15:42 |
asciilifeform |
it exists ~between~ two objects |
| 15:52 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: you will notice that scope bnc connector has two conductors |
| 15:52 |
asciilifeform |
center connects to tip of probe |
| 15:52 |
asciilifeform |
shield - to the gnd clip |
| 15:55 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: you wouln't leave 1 lead off voltmeter hanging in the air, wouldja? same idea. |
| 15:55 |
mod6 |
aha, ok |
| 16:00 |
jurov |
S.QNTR distributed |
| 16:10 |
mod6 |
ok, well. huh. |
| 16:12 |
mod6 |
i've since, just wanna look at the clock, see if i've got it hooked up right. i've got probe on channel one connected to 'clk' pin. probe's crock is attached to a lead coming off 'gnd' pin. |
| 16:12 |
mod6 |
it's not a square wave tho. |
| 16:13 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: post pic ? |
| 16:13 |
mod6 |
sure |
| 16:14 |
asciilifeform |
( even a very clean clock, if frequency is >1MHz or so, will not look like 'ideal' square when viewed through clip probes on scope. you will see 'ringing' ) |
| 16:18 |
mod6 |
http://www.mod6.net/fg/fg-test/20170602_150946.jpg |
| 16:18 |
asciilifeform |
yeah, that'd be it |
| 16:18 |
mod6 |
ya?! |
| 16:19 |
mod6 |
decent! thanks, ima see if i can get the 'out' in there too |
| 16:19 |
asciilifeform |
get rid of the massive cable / multiple clip-to-cable joints |
| 16:20 |
asciilifeform |
if you want to see something closer to the actual signal |
| 16:20 |
asciilifeform |
at 14.7456MHz , your cable is a substantial parasitic capacitor ( and inductor ) |
| 16:20 |
mod6 |
yeah, i rigged that up, but im having trouble with the space. i suppose i could elminate the USB-TTL for power and just use 5v from Dr. Meter tho right? |
| 16:21 |
asciilifeform |
the effect in your picture is not the power supply's fault |
| 16:21 |
asciilifeform |
but very much a physical limitation of your measurement setup. see above. |
| 16:21 |
mod6 |
gotcha |
| 16:22 |
asciilifeform |
another tip : rng shield is an ok place for the gnd clip |
| 16:22 |
asciilifeform |
( it is tied to the ground plane ) |
| 16:22 |
mod6 |
ooh |
| 16:22 |
mod6 |
ok |
| 16:23 |
asciilifeform |
( you do NOT want a long wire between ground clip and the circuit ) |
| 16:23 |
asciilifeform |
moar wisdom : the nose of the scope probe, comes off |
| 16:23 |
asciilifeform |
you can then use it as a manual sharp-needle-poke |
| 16:36 |
mod6 |
ah, gotcha |
| 16:43 |
mod6 |
ok, here's one with both clk & out; http://www.mod6.net/fg/fg-test/20170602_153853.jpg |
| 16:45 |
mod6 |
i used the sheilds for gnd this time, feel like im learning a bit, thanks for the help. |
| 16:45 |
asciilifeform |
that looks atrocious |
| 16:45 |
asciilifeform |
is the blue input ac-coupled by any chance ? |
| 16:46 |
mod6 |
i don't know |
| 16:47 |
mod6 |
does the clk still look ok? |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
it is still very loudly mutilated by your cabling but this is not avoidable (without specially made cable) |
| 16:48 |
asciilifeform |
it's why you'll find coax jacks on high-end fpga boards |
| 16:48 |
mod6 |
these probes have this little switch on them. "1x -> 10x" |
| 16:48 |
mod6 |
they were set to 10x, gonna see if turning 'em down to 1 shows me anything different |
| 16:49 |
asciilifeform |
if you set '10x' that turns on voltage divider |
| 16:49 |
mod6 |
ok makes sense to what im seeing on the screen |
| 16:49 |
asciilifeform |
ftr mod6 has much spiffier scope than asciilifeform |
| 16:50 |
asciilifeform |
( it's 1 or 2 models after ) |
| 16:50 |
mod6 |
lol, i simply have no clue what im doing :D |
| 16:58 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: after you have the basics , everything else will make sense. |
| 17:13 |
mod6 |
so i did one more while I was at it: http://www.mod6.net/fg/fg-test/20170602_155427.jpg |
| 17:13 |
mod6 |
clk looks better to me in that case, like I somehow have it dialed in more properly. |
| 17:13 |
mod6 |
not sure about the 'out' |
| 17:17 |
mod6 |
wb |
| 17:18 |
asciilifeform |
that looks horrid, mod6 |
| 17:18 |
asciilifeform |
one or more of your grounds is loose. |
| 17:18 |
mod6 |
lol, ok |
| 17:18 |
mircea_popescu |
looks like maybe it's summed up over a sampling interval or such ? |
| 17:18 |
mircea_popescu |
do you have a function like that activated ? |
| 17:18 |
mod6 |
totally could be. |
| 17:18 |
mod6 |
im just uber n00b on this thing. gotta rtfm. |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: play with the test clip on the scope ( the thing immediately to the right of ch4 bnc jack ) first |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
see if you can get it to display the wave pictured in the manual. |
| 17:20 |
mod6 |
sure, ok. it does seem, that when i clip on to that with the crock, and the probe, it gets square just fine. i read that means that it's "compensated" correctly. |
| 17:20 |
asciilifeform |
it's what, 1kHz tho. |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: another tip : when playing with fg & scope/logic analyzer, it is convenient to turn it upside-down and sink the 'teeth' into a breadboard |
| 17:22 |
asciilifeform |
then put wires in the breadboard, attached to scope |
| 17:24 |
mod6 |
ah, ok. can do, i did get a breadboard. |
| |
~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~ |
| 18:50 |
deedbot |
http://www.contravex.com/2017/06/02/5770-flambe/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - 5770 flambé |
| 18:51 |
asciilifeform |
pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2017/06/02/5770-flambe/#comment-57116 |
| 18:52 |
asciilifeform |
holy fuq pete_dushenski , i suppose you've never taken a heat sink off before ?! |
| 18:52 |
asciilifeform |
scrape that shit off, put in 'arctic silver' or whatever yer favourite 'toothpaste' |
| 18:52 |
asciilifeform |
then screw heat sink back on. |
| 18:57 |
BingoBoingo |
Eh, it's pete_dushenski. Peter throw some moly grease on it! |
| 18:59 |
BingoBoingo |
After degreasign sink and top of chip package |
| 19:03 |
deedbot |
http://qntra.net/2017/06/us-branch-of-pantsuit-party-shunning-hillary-rodham-clinton-amid-blame-trading/ << Qntra - US Branch Of Pantsuit Party Shunning Hillary Rodham-Clinton Amid Blame Trading |
| |
~ 49 minutes ~ |
| 19:53 |
BingoBoingo |
!!up erlehmann |
| 19:53 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 19:56 |
erlehmann |
dear diary, yesterday a person on IRC asked me if i am jealous after i referred to ethereum as a scam again. jealous, i asked. yes, she answered, jealous of people who invest in cryptocurrencies! |
| |
↖ |
| 19:59 |
erlehmann |
phf i still use the neo2 keyboard layout. it has several advantages over qwert(y|z) for me: 1. less strain put on my hands 2. useless caps lock replaced with another mod key 3. built-in layers for useful unicode 4. compose in the base layout |
| 20:00 |
* |
phf nods |
| 20:01 |
phf |
i saw that was posted in 2014, and i was mostly curious if you stuck with it. i used arensito for almost 4 years, but once i started doing corporate work, particularly management work, it became somewhat impractical. |
| 20:01 |
erlehmann |
why? |
| 20:02 |
erlehmann |
two exes of mine learned neo2 immediately after i explained the concept. one of them was often frustrated because her work computer was running windows and apparently windows + keyboard layout = shitcock |
| 20:03 |
asciilifeform |
even if you don't winblowz, remapping keyboards only works well in hardware imho |
| 20:03 |
erlehmann |
same for OS X, apparently. my boss told me he tried to use it there and it was a pain due to something i cannot remember. |
| 20:03 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform due to mod keys or what? |
| 20:03 |
asciilifeform |
( sooner or later you will boot into something -- hell, even if only bios setup or rescue disk -- or an ancient lappy on kvm, etc -- that doesn't know about your magic layout ) |
| 20:04 |
erlehmann |
yeah, so? |
| 20:04 |
erlehmann |
i can do qwertz still. on my work laptop i have not even changed the keycaps. |
| 20:04 |
asciilifeform |
so then you don't have your layout. ~unless~ you did it in hardware. |
| 20:05 |
phf |
well, that was a while ago (i switched back almost a decade ago), but even now more so now i spend a lot of time, working on other people's machines (i.e. developers that are stuck or need help or whatever) |
| 20:05 |
asciilifeform |
having to ever go back and forth -- is what nukes the whole 'custom keyboard' thing for many folx (incl. asciilifeform) |
| 20:05 |
phf |
yeah, likewise the whole back and forth killed it for me. |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform i guess you cannot control your computing experience? the answer from the boss of my boss to “can i install linux on the macbook to get a sane keyboard layout” was “got it, you get a thinkpad” |
| 20:06 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: funnily enough -- today -- i can |
| 20:06 |
asciilifeform |
but no longer type enough to make keyboard fiddling worthwhile thing |
| 20:06 |
asciilifeform |
most of my time is spent thinking, not pressing keys as-fast-as-possible |
| 20:06 |
erlehmann |
well, in my experience it takes max. three weeks to learn a layout. |
| 20:07 |
erlehmann |
chatting is something where i prefer to prevent my hands hurting |
| 20:07 |
erlehmann |
i suspect the effect is not as notable for other people as for me, but qwertz hurts, neo2 does not. |
| 20:08 |
erlehmann |
(after long chats) |
| 20:09 |
erlehmann |
i think it is unlikely that a non-self-built keyboard can do most things relevant to daily usage in hardware. especially layers, mod keys and compose. |
| 20:11 |
phf |
ascii's approach was to put custom firmware into an old keyboard, so that's half way there |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
mno |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
had to desolder internals and put in new controller |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
( open source, and author sells the pcb, so you don't have to necessarily make the pcb by hand ) |
| 20:12 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform what is your opinion of FPGAs in general? shit because complexity? nice because reprogrammable? |
| 20:12 |
asciilifeform |
!#s fpga |
| 20:12 |
a111 |
791 results for "fpga", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fpga |
| 20:13 |
asciilifeform |
!#s xilinx |
| 20:13 |
a111 |
131 results for "xilinx", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xilinx |
| 20:13 |
erlehmann |
“there exists an answer” mathematician-face.jpg |
| 20:14 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: i manufacture and sell a product ( http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html ) with a xilinx cpld in it |
| 20:14 |
erlehmann |
for some reason i thought of asciilifeform when i learned about the MNT VA2000 amiga graphics card |
| 20:14 |
asciilifeform |
but on the other hand it is a very small cpld, and runs a pretty simple state machine, whose honest function is verifiable by the operator with reasonable effort |
| 20:15 |
asciilifeform |
i'd still like to replace it with a civilized fpga for which you don't need a 20GB closed source shitware toolchain |
| 20:15 |
asciilifeform |
problem is, THEY DON'T EXIST |
| 20:15 |
erlehmann |
market reasons? |
| 20:16 |
asciilifeform |
you really gotta read the logs, erlehmann |
| 20:16 |
erlehmann |
shit toolchains are endemic in lots of fields it seems |
| 20:16 |
asciilifeform |
we've had this particular thread at least 7 times |
| 20:16 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform acknowledged. sorry. |
| 20:16 |
asciilifeform |
the history doesn't change. |
| 20:17 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: start http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-17#1165927 , or http://btcbase.org/log/2014-12-11#950467 , or http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-03#1551513 ... |
| 20:17 |
a111 |
Logged on 2015-06-17 13:17 asciilifeform: you can pick up a textbook and write a dram controller for fpga from first principles - and it won't work. because, for starters, only a small number of output cells in the chip can function on both rising and falling edge of clock cycle (what 'ddr' means) and only xilinx's closed turd knows where they are in the routing fabric; |
| 20:17 |
a111 |
Logged on 2014-12-11 01:52 asciilifeform: decimation: notice that all known fpga manufacturers (xilinx, altera, lattice, a few others) have the same business model |
| 20:17 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-10-03 13:35 asciilifeform: mepian: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-03#1551507 << please read the xilinx threads . |
| 20:18 |
erlehmann |
i once met rms at a conference and asked him about viability of free hardware. his answer was along the lines of 1. apparently non-free hardware has worked for decades 2. whoever makes your board can still subvert your trustworthy design, you can't check that 3. maybe if we have star-trek-style replicators one day, hahaha |
| 20:18 |
asciilifeform |
latest twist was that some d00dz ~partially~ reversed lattice's toolchain. but their shit ~doesn't work, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-16#1604097 |
| 20:18 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-01-16 23:36 asciilifeform: leaving entirely aside the question of whether ice40 can in fact be made to do anything useful with the 'open' toolchain discussed earlier, or whether a toolchain that required clang, llvm, and ten other poetteringesque abortions is 'open' |
| 20:19 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: didja ask him what specifically it would mean to 'subvert' an fpga ahead of time (i.e. when you have no idea what will be loaded into it, and into what cells in particular ) ? |
| 20:20 |
erlehmann |
as far as i can remember, we did not talk about fpga. his example was some company creating your board and not you. |
| 20:20 |
erlehmann |
thus the remark with the star trek replicators, which he likened to compilers. just do it yourself. |
| 20:21 |
erlehmann |
one could probably extend david wheeler's diverse double compiling to any type of tool if sufficiently paranoid |
| 20:22 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform if you are interested, i suggest to email rms yourself. he answers. |
| 20:22 |
asciilifeform |
not when i wrote ! |
| 20:22 |
erlehmann |
last time i wrote him it was because of this https://stallman.org/netflix.html |
| 20:23 |
erlehmann |
> A friend once asked me to watch a video with her that she was going to display on her computer using Netflix. I declined, saying that Netflix was such a threat to freedom that I felt uncomfortable with promoting its use in this way. |
| 20:24 |
asciilifeform |
!!up erlehmann |
| 20:24 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 20:24 |
erlehmann |
and rms was like “no, it was not flirting, i am very sure” |
| 20:25 |
erlehmann |
as a free-software enthusiast myself, i have managed to experience many invitations to “netflix and chill” entirely without netflix. freedoms preserved! |
| 20:26 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform i like your project names |
| 20:26 |
erlehmann |
sufficiently off-putting for hipsters |
| 20:29 |
erlehmann |
phf your patch visualizer linked here http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system is apparently gone |
| 20:29 |
erlehmann |
phf link shows http://btcbase.org/patches/ which redirects to http://btcbase.org/patches/NIL |
| 20:30 |
erlehmann |
phf does it still exist? if so, where? |
| 20:30 |
phf |
http://btcbase.org/patches |
| 20:30 |
phf |
(busy irl one sec) |
| 20:30 |
erlehmann |
ah funny, it does not work with a slash at the end |
| 20:32 |
erlehmann |
phf what does the arrow at the right mean? http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot&search=&action=update |
| 20:32 |
erlehmann |
apparently it does not come from anywhere in this graphic |
| 20:32 |
shinohai |
Perhaps /patches is static page ? |
| 20:32 |
phf |
i actually patched it in the offline, but haven't had a chance to update the deployment |
| 20:33 |
erlehmann |
also, makefiles. fail. |
| 20:33 |
phf |
erlehmann: so the arrow from nowhere basically means that the patch is broken, because it requires an antecedent that's missing |
| 20:34 |
erlehmann |
phf that makes … too much sense. thanks. |
| 20:34 |
phf |
this one specifically http://btcbase.org/hash/95A0046C0AF25E21DBA310217A289D7649DD86CB89709A89931BFE318A41022FFD4BA9DC046E04DAC1B32BC5304239866BF5CA9AD59328B7DA79B1D06437E273 |
| 20:35 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform do you have an opinion on DJB redo? or maybe even a simpler design? i would only trust my own implementation and MAYBE the one from jonathan de boyne pollard (although he requires a C++ compiler as a dependency, lol) |
| |
↖ |
| 20:35 |
phf |
there's a handful of those, for example in the experimental there's three patches from polarbeard, a guy who joined as we were regriding a bunch of shit, so he had to update his patches a bunch of times and then gave up. nobody cared to reintegrate his patches properly yet |
| 20:36 |
phf |
also my own phf-shiva-swank is broken somehow, probably because i was pressing with not "real" v tooling. actually i need to fix that.. |
| |
↖ |
| 20:36 |
erlehmann |
unreal tooling? |
| 20:37 |
phf |
imaginary tooling |
| 20:37 |
erlehmann |
v looks like a nice approach as far as i can see (and is the reason i chose to join #trilema), but as i commented, i suspect there exist parser differentials |
| 20:38 |
erlehmann |
if i ever get around to making my own v toolchain (probably in bourne shell, for portability and clarity), i'll address that of course. |
| 20:39 |
phf |
for sure, btcbase is probably the most aggressive, because there's a very restricted state machine for parsing, but there's still some ambiguity in recognition that's an artifact of diff/patch being dodgy |
| 20:40 |
phf |
(fwiw it has complete understanding of patch, so it can also do a press in memory, e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools/tree/) |
| 20:40 |
erlehmann |
well, vdiff would never be possible if diff and patch were definite about their inputs |
| 20:41 |
erlehmann |
what does “in memory” mean? |
| 20:42 |
phf |
it does an equivalent of patch, but without calling out to c programs and without the result (or intermediate steps) touching the file system at any point |
| 20:43 |
phf |
so hitting http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools/tree/bitcoin/src/init.h runs patch algorithm on a series of vdiffs |
| 20:44 |
phf |
well that was a bad example because the file is all genesis |
| 20:44 |
phf |
http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools/tree/bitcoin/src/net.h |
| 20:45 |
erlehmann |
that looks weird here |
| 20:45 |
phf |
screenshot? |
| 20:46 |
erlehmann |
phf http://i.imgur.com/UuhywZT.png |
| 20:47 |
erlehmann |
tables are hard, let's go shopping? |
| 20:47 |
phf |
hmm, k. i haven't paid much attention to that styling, because i don't think anyone's using it, including myself. the press part definitely needs more ux work |
| 20:50 |
erlehmann |
phf the reasons seems to be that every single line on the right side is wrapped in <pre> and <span> |
| 20:51 |
phf |
so the way it should really be solved is that i need to better understand colorizing code (which i lifted from elsewhere) so that i can wrap the whole thing in pre and just format it without tables by doing <blame ...> <lineno ...> <line> |
| 20:51 |
phf |
but that makes copy pasting harder (you can't just select a chunk, because it now includes line numbers and blame) |
| 20:52 |
erlehmann |
phf fix is easy |
| 20:52 |
phf |
like? |
| 20:53 |
phf |
(fwiw this table based approach also looks shitty in lynx) |
| 20:53 |
erlehmann |
phf add following CSS to stylesheet: pre { margin-bottom: 0; } |
| 20:54 |
asciilifeform |
!!up erlehmann |
| 20:54 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 20:55 |
erlehmann |
phf i hope this change flies without a vpatch, should be evident it is not malicious |
| 20:56 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1664877 <<< >>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663662 |
| 20:56 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-03 00:35 erlehmann: asciilifeform do you have an opinion on DJB redo? or maybe even a simpler design? i would only trust my own implementation and MAYBE the one from jonathan de boyne pollard (although he requires a C++ compiler as a dependency, lol) |
| 20:56 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-05-31 14:12 mircea_popescu: i suspect the idea is that systems which require something like make are broken anyway. |
| 20:57 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1664879 << v is -- properly considered -- an abstract concept, quite divorceable from the abominations of gnudiff/patch and gpg |
| 20:57 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-03 00:36 phf: also my own phf-shiva-swank is broken somehow, probably because i was pressing with not "real" v tooling. actually i need to fix that.. |
| 20:57 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform so which build system(s) do you use? any at all? |
| 20:58 |
asciilifeform |
traditional make |
| 20:58 |
asciilifeform |
lately -- gprbuild |
| 20:58 |
phf |
erlehmann: try it now |
| 20:58 |
asciilifeform |
i gotta admit : i don't consider the problem to be a very interesting one |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
phf looks better |
| 20:58 |
asciilifeform |
and am quite happy to have entire build process repeat every single time the button is pushed |
| 20:58 |
asciilifeform |
if it means simplicity+reliability |
| 20:59 |
asciilifeform |
trick is : i don't believe in large programs. |
| 20:59 |
phf |
also ascii grew up with 2 hour builds anyway.. |
| 20:59 |
asciilifeform |
if your program is large, and build time is a bottleneck : Your Program Is Wrong |
| 20:59 |
asciilifeform |
the one possible exception might be ~massive~ fpga floor layouts |
| 20:59 |
asciilifeform |
but i do not often deal in those. |
| 20:59 |
asciilifeform |
and make systems do NOTHING to help there anyway |
| 21:00 |
asciilifeform |
because the thing is monolithic |
| 21:00 |
erlehmann |
i also consider building stuff not very interesting. but redo is so simple that it can be implemented in <250 lines of shell script. |
| 21:01 |
asciilifeform |
i dun think i've ever written anything where the ~naked~ build -- no 'intelligence' -- would be >250 ln of bash |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
not bash |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
bourne shell |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
i consider bash an abomination |
| 21:01 |
shinohai |
D: |
| 21:01 |
asciilifeform |
i consider system lacking tab-completion to be unusable |
| 21:02 |
erlehmann |
relevant how? |
| 21:02 |
asciilifeform |
well, naked 'sh' |
| 21:02 |
erlehmann |
rlwrap sh then |
| 21:02 |
asciilifeform |
not same |
| 21:02 |
asciilifeform |
wants explicit word lists etc |
| 21:02 |
erlehmann |
whatever, i use rc shell for day to day work. but sh is portable and bash is not. |
| 21:02 |
erlehmann |
rc shell grammar is listed on the man page. very small. nice. monkey like. |
| 21:03 |
asciilifeform |
i'll use a tabcompleteless shell after i start shitting in holes in the ground. |
| 21:03 |
asciilifeform |
and wearing bear skin. |
| 21:03 |
erlehmann |
regarding redo: needing dependencies is not limited to compiling programs. datasets are also something. i build my website with redo. i have managed converted media files with redo. i would not want to wait hours for the re-encoding of each file every time i rebuild a web site. |
| 21:04 |
asciilifeform |
sounds potentially handy. |
| 21:04 |
phf |
when you have a hammer |
| 21:04 |
erlehmann |
as the saying goes in german: wenn du einen hammer hast, kannst du die ganze welt nageln! |
| 21:05 |
erlehmann |
i think the main reason for me implementing and using redo is that the scripts work fine without all the logic. it is just an optimization. |
| 21:06 |
phf |
does djb have a working redo implementation or it's just a concept paper? |
| 21:07 |
erlehmann |
i suspect he has at least a prototype, but he has never published it. reason: i found dofiles in some stuff about elliptic curves. |
| 21:07 |
erlehmann |
i had two interactions with djb regarding that |
| 21:07 |
asciilifeform |
speaking of which : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663689 |
| 21:07 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-05-31 14:17 asciilifeform: in recent sads, 'Our batch prime-generation algorithm suggests that, to help reduce energy consumption and protect the environment, all users of RSA—including users of traditional pre-quantum RSA—should delegate their key-generation computa- tions to NIST or another trusted third party. This speed improvement would also allow users to generate new RSA keys and erase old RSA keys more frequently, limiting the damage of key theft.' |
| 21:08 |
erlehmann |
first: “where is your redo implementation?”, i believe his answer was like “has to be cleaned up before release” or something before i stupidly decided to come back later bcause he was answering crypto questions |
| 21:09 |
erlehmann |
second: “i have written a redo implementation, does it work correctly?”, i again lost him. he suggested to meet at a place at a time during the conference and i thought i knew the place but apparently i erred because there was no place with the name i thought he had said. |
| 21:10 |
erlehmann |
phf if you want to learn about redo, i suggest to: 1. read djb's notes. 2. read http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/redo-sh.html and my man page 3. avoid apenwarr's unmaintained implementation (it is the only one that got some popularity, but massively shitty) |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
and by ”massively shitty” i mean apenwarr used sqlite because “filesystem is slow of course”. turns out 300 lines of shell script are faster than more than double that amount of python if you actually benchmark and not talk out of your own ass. |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
in my opinion, having python and sqlites as dependencies is a massive no-go for a build system. |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
maximum bloat |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
phf i believe redo is an unpolished gem. sadly, many people implement it ALMOST correctly and then do something stupid |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform for a website case, see some output of redo-dot(1) http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/graphs/redo/bin-dependencies.png |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
it is a rendering of dependencies behind http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/ |
| 21:15 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: i have nfi what to make of djb at this point. phuctor is the world's largest public showcase of his 'smooth parts of integers' algo, but he refused -- repeatedly -- to answer main re same. and now he's signed his name to a paper full of howlers, e.g. 'let usg nist generate your private key' |
| |
↖ |
| 21:15 |
asciilifeform |
*answer mail re |
| 21:16 |
erlehmann |
djb also never answered my mail regarding redo |
| 21:16 |
erlehmann |
but he seems responsive in person |
| 21:17 |
erlehmann |
i think it is like fefe said: a) tenure b) does not care |
| 21:17 |
erlehmann |
i believed the suggestion to let NIST generate your private key was sarcasm |
| 21:17 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: how about http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663987 ? |
| 21:17 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-05-31 18:37 asciilifeform: 'Generating large amounts of truly random data is expensive. Fortunately, truly random data can be simulated by pseudorandom data produced by a stream cipher from a much smaller key. (Even better, slight deficiencies in the randomness of the cipher key do not compromise security.) The literature contains several scalable ciphers....' -- djb et al |
| 21:17 |
asciilifeform |
also joke ? |
| 21:17 |
erlehmann |
but then again i was sceptical of weev's aryan awakening at first as well |
| 21:17 |
asciilifeform |
he wrote ~entire paper~ on subj |
| 21:18 |
asciilifeform |
advocating the ~expanded~ use of prngs. |
| 21:18 |
asciilifeform |
can you picture a renowned surgeon suddenly advocating bloodletting ? |
| 21:18 |
asciilifeform |
the taking of antimony pill ? |
| 21:18 |
asciilifeform |
extracting the Stone of Folly ? |
| |
↖ |
| 21:19 |
erlehmann |
bloodletting, yes. there are rare diseases where it can work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemochromatosis |
| 21:20 |
erlehmann |
i have no interest in arguing about djb's merits tbh |
| 21:20 |
erlehmann |
just redo |
| 21:20 |
erlehmann |
i come from imageboard culture, where discussions only devolved into shitting on each other if a person was assuming a name |
| 21:22 |
asciilifeform |
we don't do 'ideas have own merits'. |
| 21:23 |
asciilifeform |
idea is not separable from the originator. |
| 21:23 |
asciilifeform |
the notion that it is separable, is a historic mistake. |
| 21:24 |
erlehmann |
often not, yes. to understand why URbit is designed in such an idiosyncratic way, i always suggest to read unqualified reservations first. |
| 21:25 |
phf |
!!up erlehmann |
| 21:25 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 21:25 |
erlehmann |
however, having a single command in a build script that says “rebuild the target, then rebuild the current target” seems trivial in comparison. |
| 21:26 |
erlehmann |
also non-existence dependencies. yeah, i read it at djb's website, but if his implementation does not exist (not published = not existing in practical terms), i don't care about his opinions regarding that. |
| 21:28 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: i followed the man's mathematical work ( and made extensive use of it ) which is why i found it disheartening to watch his intellectual honesty evaporate and the quality of said work, falling through the floor. but his solution to ~nonproblem does not pique my interest, i admit |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform i have probably done more work on automatically capturing non-existence dependencies in real-world usecases (which seems also trivial, in retrospect) – so is it now my idea? why should i care what the guy says if he does not followup with code? |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
btw, most problem's do not feel interesting to me and programming is not fun. |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
programming (to me) is a blue collar job, like taking out the trash. |
| 21:32 |
erlehmann |
wait, no, not taking out the trash. whatever it is called when they pick up trash cans. |
| 21:32 |
erlehmann |
sorry, am sleepy |
| 21:32 |
erlehmann |
it seems that it is not for other people. |
| 21:33 |
erlehmann |
at least i am not aware of garbagemen having groupies |
| 21:34 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform i think one of the reasons why i thought it was satire was “Make RSA Great Again” |
| 21:43 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: funny also that you mention urbit: see thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1524741 |
| 21:43 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-18 19:00 asciilifeform: 1 - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1352 << the sale |
| 21:43 |
erlehmann |
i know that |
| 21:44 |
erlehmann |
i agree with your assessment of urbit btw |
| 21:45 |
erlehmann |
broken foundations |
| 21:45 |
asciilifeform |
i bring it up because it was another d00d who advocated 1 set of principles : and implemented a very other in code |
| |
↖ |
| 21:47 |
asciilifeform |
( mr. mold advocated for 'patchwork states', which were -- best as anyone could tell -- a miraculous resurrection of 16th c. italian provinces, somehow balanced in mutual non-nukeability . but in 'urbit' he implemented a reich, with central control and total dependence on the 'palace' ) |
| |
↖ |
| 21:48 |
erlehmann |
oh, that. well, i would argue the hints in hoon are enough to discount that stuff. |
| 21:48 |
erlehmann |
or, for that matter, the silent bugfixing of nock 5k … without adjusting the temperature. |
| 21:50 |
phf |
his concept of jets sort of reminds me of lisp VOPs, with similar failure modes. vops originally were supposed to abstract a lisp machine cpu on traditional hardware, so that, say, addition vop adds all the assembler overhead of typechecking etc. in reality it turned into an everything and kitchen sink way of adding arbitrary assembler to the system |
| |
↖ |
| 21:50 |
asciilifeform |
it is more difficult to count the places where he did ~not~ commit an atrocity, than the atrocities. |
| 21:50 |
erlehmann |
i am of the impression that any change to nock 5k should have become nock 4k, if goldbug were following his self-proclaimed principles, correct? |
| 21:51 |
phf |
for some reason i always thought mr mold was a monarchist |
| 21:51 |
asciilifeform |
he was a 'multi', if you will, monarchist |
| 21:51 |
erlehmann |
https://github.com/urbit/urbit/issues/14 |
| 21:51 |
asciilifeform |
'let's have many small monarchies' |
| 21:52 |
erlehmann |
funnily enough, my incomplete nock 5k implementation in sed(1) was a rough transliteration of the nock 5k spec |
| 21:52 |
erlehmann |
just to illustrate you can get by with search-and-replace if your spec looks like that |
| 21:53 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=103 << mine |
| 21:53 |
erlehmann |
turns out changing the order of reduction rules is a problem in that case |
| 21:53 |
asciilifeform |
it not only worked, but -- afaik -- remains the only 'optimizing' compiler of nock to x86 |
| 21:53 |
asciilifeform |
( free ride on top of sbcl ! ) |
| 21:54 |
asciilifeform |
of course 'nock' is merely s-k calculus with 'serial number sawed off' |
| 21:54 |
erlehmann |
http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/nock.sed |
| 21:54 |
asciilifeform |
gotta luvv how d00d took the credit for s-k calculus |
| 21:55 |
asciilifeform |
!!up erlehmann |
| 21:55 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 21:58 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform my implementation has the questionable benefit of seeing each step of the reduction rules being applied. screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/qh3zvSv.png |
| 21:59 |
phf |
probably can be done with ascii's version by dropping a format somewhere inside mk-op |
| 22:00 |
erlehmann |
probably |
| 22:00 |
erlehmann |
but it comes naturally when you are working with sed(1) |
| 22:01 |
erlehmann |
the beginning of nock.sed has a label “: reduce” and a single “p” command (“print the current pattern space”) |
| 22:02 |
erlehmann |
as far as i can remember, i actually used it for debugging |
| 22:02 |
erlehmann |
that being said, back to the topic at hand: intellectual dishonesty |
| 22:04 |
phf |
(actually i'm not getting the same result from ascii's version as you do in your evaluator, but i don't want to devote any more time to it) |
| 22:04 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform how long did it take you to discover that urbit was built on sand? less than a year probably, going from the date on the blog post. |
| 22:05 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: before release |
| 22:05 |
asciilifeform |
( i found his repo prior to any public mention thereof ) |
| 22:06 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform why then buy a dukedom? |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
i didn't ! |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
he gave it to me |
| 22:06 |
erlehmann |
ah, for decrement |
| 22:06 |
erlehmann |
right? |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
it was why i wrote the nocktron |
| 22:06 |
erlehmann |
i remember that blog post i think |
| 22:06 |
erlehmann |
where he asked people to decrement with only addition |
| 22:07 |
erlehmann |
a simple task, really. and one i have used to mock the workings of nock (heh) |
| 22:07 |
asciilifeform |
was elementary once you realize it's a ripoff of s-k |
| 22:08 |
erlehmann |
phf please do not devote time to debugging. but is the result of nock([57 [4 [0 1]]]) NOT 58? |
| 22:08 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform maybe that is it why it is nock 5K! |
| 22:08 |
erlehmann |
“5K” looks like “SK” |
| 22:08 |
asciilifeform |
lel |
| 22:08 |
erlehmann |
in 133t |
| 22:08 |
erlehmann |
:D |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
pretty lulzy , erlehmann is not the first to assume that asciilifeform bought something from urbit |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
in actuality the 'dukedoms' were handed out like candy, |
| 22:09 |
phf |
no idea, nock(..) doesn't work, so i did a substitution to *[57 [4 [0 1]]] and it gave me 1 |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
iirc no fewer than 27, right off the bat |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
then a bunch more, for 'sponsors' |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
and 'investors' etc. |
| 22:10 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform my fault. i should have assumed differently. |
| 22:10 |
erlehmann |
especially since i had followed the urbit story at that time |
| 22:10 |
erlehmann |
and then lost interest quickly |
| 22:10 |
asciilifeform |
iirc today he is selling 1/256th of'em |
| 22:11 |
asciilifeform |
for 500usd ea. |
| 22:11 |
asciilifeform |
but i have nfi who -- if anyone -- buys |
| 22:11 |
phf |
it's a pretty standard marketing tactic: give out a bunch of stuff to high profile people, make the rest buy it on the assumption that "such and such bought" |
| 22:11 |
asciilifeform |
phf: possibly this ; or possibly the cockroaches in his head decided , entirely arbitrarily, to do it, for no discernible logic at all |
| 22:11 |
phf |
in a degenerate case this is also how scams work "everyone here already bought, what are you waiting for" |
| 22:12 |
asciilifeform |
but it ended up as a fairly standard 'altcoin scam', yes |
| 22:12 |
erlehmann |
on the other hand, i successfully used “see, this guy sold his dukedom in 2013” as argument to convince someone that urbit is of no use |
| |
↖ |
| 22:13 |
erlehmann |
oh, but it has not ended yet! i am sure there can be at least one other unlaunch and relaunch |
| 22:13 |
erlehmann |
i must admit moldbug is pretty good at creating memetic hazards |
| 22:14 |
asciilifeform |
like many other american hucksters ( e.g. joseph smith ..) he is mainly good at scavenging & repackaging old crackpotteries |
| 22:14 |
asciilifeform |
with 'new flavour' |
| 22:14 |
asciilifeform |
old wine; new bottle. |
| 22:15 |
erlehmann |
my worst urbit moment: after i read some hoon language code i started to understand it. immediately decided to no longer look at the stuff. |
| 22:15 |
erlehmann |
like, not the code. but i started to understand hoon digraphs. |
| 22:15 |
asciilifeform |
my least nonsensical hypothesis is that thiel funded urbit (yes) to make a half-hearted play at 'embrace&extinguish'ing bitcoin |
| |
↖ ↖ |
| 22:16 |
erlehmann |
and what it should do. |
| 22:16 |
erlehmann |
and where the impedance mismatches came from. |
| 22:16 |
erlehmann |
reaction: when moldbuggery starts making sense, stop looking at it. |
| 22:17 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform how should urbit ever affect bitcoin? |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
idea was, by replacing |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
with a centrally-controlled pseudobitcoin |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
just like today's , e.g., 'ethereum' etc. |
| 22:17 |
erlehmann |
i always thought it piggybacked on bitcoins marketing. |
| 22:17 |
asciilifeform |
nope. |
| 22:18 |
asciilifeform |
was from the (public) beginning 'we're like bitcoin, but with censorship, so When They Shoot The Bitcoinists, we'll live' |
| |
↖ |
| 22:18 |
erlehmann |
ah yes |
| 22:18 |
erlehmann |
“this is how bitcoin dies” and “we'll make our system so the state can censor everything with ease” |
| 22:19 |
erlehmann |
“if the above makes sense to you, do not attempt revolution, sit in your chair and await certain death” |
| 22:19 |
erlehmann |
classic moldbug |
| 22:19 |
asciilifeform |
d00d consistently advocated 'sit in your chair, resistance is futile' |
| 22:19 |
asciilifeform |
why he even bothered to write -- remained a mystery to me |
| 22:21 |
erlehmann |
for some people it brings ease |
| 22:22 |
asciilifeform |
that kind of 'ease' is why we have locking doors in shithouses |
| 22:22 |
asciilifeform |
best done in private. |
| 22:22 |
asciilifeform |
whereas shitting in public, is frowned upon by civilized folx. |
| 22:23 |
erlehmann |
in the end he got paid for that |
| 22:23 |
asciilifeform |
30 pieces of silver!111 |
| 22:23 |
asciilifeform |
esr , recall , also was 'well-paid' quisling, |
| 22:23 |
erlehmann |
a guy i know told me he put 600€ in ETH and 400€ in BTC. without a concrete plan, of course. |
| 22:23 |
asciilifeform |
!#s surprised by wealth |
| 22:23 |
a111 |
11 results for "surprised by wealth", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=surprised%20by%20wealth |
| 22:24 |
asciilifeform |
today esr begs for spare change. |
| 22:24 |
erlehmann |
i thought a bit and decided that person would probably eat shit if it promised riches. |
| 22:24 |
asciilifeform |
in the end such folx invariably eatshit for free. |
| 22:25 |
asciilifeform |
and enough of it -- to pop. |
| 22:25 |
asciilifeform |
because a shit-eater -- rich, or poor -- is still a shit-eater. |
| 22:25 |
asciilifeform |
!!up erlehmann |
| 22:25 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 22:26 |
erlehmann |
i knew about the patreon page and thought he was just unemployable maybe? |
| 22:26 |
asciilifeform |
ever meet him in meatspace ? |
| 22:26 |
erlehmann |
but apparently i do not know my history |
| 22:26 |
erlehmann |
nope. should i? |
| 22:26 |
asciilifeform |
i've seen him speak in public |
| 22:26 |
erlehmann |
like, for the experience? |
| 22:27 |
asciilifeform |
he prefaces always with 20+min of 'if you have a computer, you have relied on Things That I Wrote' etc various nonsense re own mega-significance |
| 22:27 |
erlehmann |
rms is pretty charismatic btw. would meet again, even if i can guess i will not learn much. |
| 22:27 |
erlehmann |
i sometimes tell that to hipsters. |
| 22:28 |
erlehmann |
if you have GNOME 3, you have software on your computer that i wrote as a joke |
| 22:28 |
asciilifeform |
wouldya believe i have 0 gnomes here. |
| 22:28 |
asciilifeform |
of any ver. |
| 22:29 |
erlehmann |
reason: i wrote a vintage filter for GNOME 3 when i discovered their screenshot app has a postprocessing step. i submitted patch and one person saw it as the garbage it was intended as, but then others were like WHAT A COOL EASTER EGG MERGE. |
| 22:29 |
erlehmann |
if i was sufficiently bored, i would do the same to systemd |
| 22:31 |
asciilifeform |
point re esr, is that he agreed to work as an ideological judas goat to counter rms |
| 22:31 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform i also have no gnomes. |
| 22:31 |
asciilifeform |
and was handsomely paid |
| 22:31 |
asciilifeform |
but somehow 100% of the money 'evaporated' in ~decade. |
| 22:31 |
erlehmann |
judas goat, that is harsh. and to the point. |
| 22:32 |
erlehmann |
open source : free software :: “new wave” : punk |
| 22:32 |
asciilifeform |
aaha. |
| 22:32 |
erlehmann |
make the culture palatable to the businesspeople |
| 22:32 |
asciilifeform |
the 'embrace & extinguish' thing. it worked. |
| 22:33 |
asciilifeform |
you can only get ~actual~ linux today if you make it with own hands. and it takes about a month to go from 0 to a usable box. |
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↖ ↖ |
| 22:33 |
asciilifeform |
( and if you haven't been doing it for ~decade+, you generally can't do it. at. all. ) |
| 22:34 |
asciilifeform |
aaaand even after you handcraft the gentoo, with bare hands and sewing needle, you still gotta 'police' the thing constantly, and keep out the poetteringisms that continuously want to build one another, and you have to swear off maybe half of all 'modern' proggies |
| 22:34 |
asciilifeform |
e.g. graphical browsers ( 'chromium', say, insists on dbus ) |
| 22:35 |
asciilifeform |
and then you get a recent gcc and find that it 'optimizes' out safety checks so that exploits can work. |
| 22:35 |
asciilifeform |
or that glibc imports drepper's 0days for you |
| 22:35 |
asciilifeform |
( and prohibits static linking ) |
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↖ |
| 22:37 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1592090 << see also. and other threads. |
| 22:37 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-12-28 19:23 mircea_popescu: which i suppose warrants a general warning : DO NOT UPGRADE YOUR GCC TO 5.0! SAVE YOUR COPIES OF 4.X AND PRIOR! |
| 22:37 |
asciilifeform |
every time you sit down and fight a month-long rear guard battle just to keep your box ~usable -- thank esr & co. |
| 22:38 |
asciilifeform |
!#s glibc |
| 22:38 |
a111 |
287 results for "glibc", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=glibc |
| 22:38 |
asciilifeform |
^ yer in for a treat. |
| 22:38 |
asciilifeform |
do read the logs. |
| 22:40 |
erlehmann |
i don't get the hate against optimizing c compilers at all |
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| 22:40 |
erlehmann |
if you don't like undefined behaviour, don't write undefined behaviour |
| 22:41 |
asciilifeform |
you can't actually write a nontrivial c proggy without undefined behaviour. |
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↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 22:41 |
asciilifeform |
( e.g. integer overflow IS UNDEFINED in c ) |
| 22:41 |
asciilifeform |
and UNTRAPPABLE |
| 22:41 |
asciilifeform |
on top of this, gcc5 happily removes , e.g., memset |
| |
↖ |
| 22:41 |
phf |
kek "don't write undefined behavior" |
| |
↖ |
| 22:44 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform do you mean you need integer overflow or that it is difficult to check for it? |
| 22:44 |
asciilifeform |
erlehmann: the fact that the result of overflow is literally undefined in c ! |
| 22:44 |
asciilifeform |
the thing is allowed, in theory, to catch fire, crash, substitute random number, whichever. |
| 22:45 |
asciilifeform |
format the disk. |
| 22:45 |
asciilifeform |
anything at all. |
| 22:45 |
erlehmann |
i see it as a kind of type annotation |
| 22:45 |
erlehmann |
allowing the compiler to infer that this does not happen, ever |
| 22:45 |
erlehmann |
during normal operation |
| 22:45 |
asciilifeform |
whereas ~100% of all nontrivial c proggies rely on modular arithmetic via overflow, somewhere. |
| 22:45 |
asciilifeform |
and the compiler cannot possibly infer this. |
| 22:45 |
asciilifeform |
( it is physically impossible ) |
| 22:46 |
erlehmann |
so i guess whoever hates on undefined behavior hates some kinds of typing |
| 22:46 |
asciilifeform |
the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on |
| |
↖ |
| 22:47 |
asciilifeform |
and malicious idiots can break a compiler, while still technically not violating the standard, |
| 22:47 |
asciilifeform |
but at the same time subtly (or not subtly) breaking existing code, |
| 22:47 |
asciilifeform |
in such a way as to judas goat the authors of said code to rewrite it such that it DEMANDS the new 'improved' compiler. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 22:47 |
asciilifeform |
this is what the gcc5 folks spend their time doing. |
| 22:47 |
asciilifeform |
and llvm team likewise |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
(tentacles of same octopus) |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
it is called 'embrace & extinguish' and was a method pioneered by microshit. |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
in 1990s. |
| 22:48 |
phf |
c standard is written with an assumption of a "c machine", which in turn is entirely undefined |
| |
↖ |
| 22:48 |
asciilifeform |
it works -- on the unprepared. |
| 22:49 |
* |
asciilifeform bbl |
| 22:49 |
phf |
so you bring all your assumptions of what c machine is with you, and then map a "standard" on top |
| 22:50 |
erlehmann |
agree http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665167 |
| 22:50 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-03 02:46 asciilifeform: the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on |
| 22:51 |
erlehmann |
“avoid undefined behaviour” can mean “avoid C” http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665176 |
| 22:51 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-06-03 02:48 phf: c standard is written with an assumption of a "c machine", which in turn is entirely undefined |
| 22:51 |
erlehmann |
asciilifeform how far along are you in implementing sane foundations for sane personal computing? |
| 22:52 |
erlehmann |
i assume FUCKGOATS does not help here? |
| 22:52 |
erlehmann |
unless you consider it sane |
| 22:52 |
erlehmann |
(and give me reason to) |
| 22:58 |
phf |
!!up erlehmann |
| 22:58 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 23:05 |
phf |
i have nothing else to add to this conversation, i am though playing "have you heard this eurodance track" game with girl, where i play something that ~everyone~ danced to in the 90s, but didn't survive the test of time and see if she heard it |
| 23:07 |
phf |
like masterboy or mr. president or snap! |
| |
↖ |
| 23:11 |
phf |
!!up erlehmann |
| 23:11 |
deedbot |
erlehmann voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 23:11 |
erlehmann |
thx |
| 23:12 |
erlehmann |
who is girl and what are the rules of the game? |
| 23:13 |
phf |
there are no rules. she doesn't recognize most of the tracks and get indignant because "i love the 90s!1" but of course through the prism of whatever survived into the early 2000s |
| 23:13 |
phf |
the result brings me great amusement |
| 23:14 |
erlehmann |
i registered with deedbot. so what changes now? |
| 23:15 |
phf |
!!rate erlehmann 1 new blood |
| 23:15 |
deedbot |
Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/toyMw/?raw=true |
| 23:16 |
erlehmann |
phf have you ever played “digital – a love story”? apparently christine love is too young, so she pieced together how 1989 looked through textfiles.com – http://scoutshonour.com/digital/ |
| 23:16 |
phf |
!!v 26D4E4DB84B37942E130111DD744601EE4E373EFB0AC035843397D2B715AE49A |
| 23:16 |
deedbot |
phf rated erlehmann 1 << new blood |
| 23:17 |
phf |
erlehmann: now you can /msg deedbot !!up and after decoding a challenge response send it back with /msg deedbot !!v <response> you'll be permanently upped while you're connected to services anyway |
| 23:17 |
phf |
*connected to irc |
| 23:17 |
erlehmann |
nice |
| 23:18 |
erlehmann |
does it have other functions useful for me in my current state? |
| 23:18 |
erlehmann |
in a channel i administered we had a ὀστρακισμός done by bot |
| 23:19 |
erlehmann |
if you pissed of a minority of users, a ban happened |
| 23:19 |
erlehmann |
worked until the person hosting the bot killed it |
| 23:20 |
erlehmann |
and by “worked” i mean: no one complained that anyone should be kicked out |
| 23:20 |
erlehmann |
because it was self-evident |
| 23:20 |
erlehmann |
if you got at least 3 people representing at least 33% of voting populace, exile! |
| 23:21 |
erlehmann |
> Ostracism was crucially different from Athenian law at the time; there was no charge, and no defence could be mounted by the person expelled. The two stages of the procedure ran in the reverse order from that used under almost any trial system — here it is as if a jury are first asked "Do you want to find someone guilty?", and subsequently asked "Whom do you wish to accuse?" |
| 23:25 |
phf |
well, your current state is that you can talk at will |
| 23:28 |
phf |
there's no "democracy", you're in deedbot's level 2 web of trust through my rating. there's a handful of useful people in l1 that can at some point decide that you shouldn't really speak anymore. that's about it. if you ever become useful, you can get into l1. thus the s/r is maintained |
| 23:28 |
phf |
!!gettrust erlehmann |
| 23:28 |
deedbot |
L1: 1, L2: 0 by 0 connections. |
| 23:29 |
phf |
err |
| 23:29 |
erlehmann |
wot connectivity i assume? |
| 23:29 |
phf |
!!gettrust deedbot erlehmann |
| 23:29 |
deedbot |
L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections. |
| 23:29 |
erlehmann |
and L2 is amazon style recommendation? |
| 23:29 |
erlehmann |
oh |
| 23:29 |
erlehmann |
what is L1/L2? |
| 23:32 |
phf |
distance, l1 is whatever's immediately rated, l2 is whatever's rated by your rates. an informal way to establish connectivity |
| 23:32 |
phf |
ratees? |
| 23:33 |
phf |
there's a handy visualizer, but i've no idea what frequency it runs at |
| 23:33 |
phf |
http://wot.deedbot.org/29F5BC967632415AB9836DB63E452A7A2A00DEC1.html |
| 23:34 |
erlehmann |
!!rate deedbot 1 Most likely a bot. |
| 23:34 |
deedbot |
You must be registered. |
| 23:34 |
phf |
you gotta !!up yourself properly first |
| 23:34 |
phf |
!!down erlehmann |
| 23:35 |
phf |
actually i'm not sure why that should be the case.. |
| 23:48 |
phf |
!!up herbijudlestoids |
| 23:49 |
deedbot |
herbijudlestoids voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 23:49 |
herbijudlestoids |
whats crackin homeslices |
| 23:49 |
herbijudlestoids |
thanks phf |
| 23:49 |
herbijudlestoids |
ltns |
| 23:50 |
herbijudlestoids |
thought I'd drop in and check on the crazies, I see things have changed dramatically |
| 23:58 |
BingoBoingo |
herbijudlestoids: Have you found any new markets where I can take your money? |
| 23:58 |
herbijudlestoids |
BingoBoingo! |
| 23:59 |
herbijudlestoids |
do you still suck at chess? :D |
| 23:59 |
BingoBoingo |
No idea. Haven't played since I sobered up. |
| 23:59 |
herbijudlestoids |
you sobered up? |
| |
↖ |