Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-04-02 | 2017-04-04 → ↓
00:01 * shinohai actually still has a bitcoind with shiva baked in on a lab lappy but is still learning the schema bits ...
00:03 ben_vulpes the scheme/c seam is as real as the emacs/linux seam
00:05 BingoBoingo In lizard unsanctioned pizzagates https://archive.is/sQWw4
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
01:15 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes one's the testnet iirc
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01:16 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: not by my read
01:17 ben_vulpes http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/test/test_bitcoin.cpp?v=wires_rev1#1088
01:17 mircea_popescu yeah, right, one's the kinda-almost test harness
01:18 ben_vulpes mhm
~ 6 hours 55 minutes ~
08:14 Framedragger http://i.imgur.com/VS7GiEm.jpg
08:25 mircea_popescu Framedragger does she tits ?
08:27 Framedragger i can ask but i can also defer this honourable query to mr. shinohai (i dont know her personally)
08:27 Framedragger he seems to have perfected his processes :p
08:27 mircea_popescu lel
08:28 Framedragger anyway it's a fucking trend. 'professors' jacking off on fucktrumpianism in "unis"
08:29 mircea_popescu im sure. the place didn't go to shit on its own.
08:30 mircea_popescu but the solution is relatively simple anyway. "honey, you're not going to """college""", you're going to either riadh or beijing, and if by the time you're 20 you're not either married or coming back with a million you're not my daughter.
08:34 Framedragger when compared, it *is* a clear KPI cf. "uni performance" etc. heh.
08:41 mircea_popescu offspring gotta become capable to fend for self, that's the point and the definition of parenthood.
08:42 mircea_popescu by the time she's 18 she ~absolutely~ must be working at a profit. no matter the fuck what.
08:42 Framedragger absolutely, question is if there's any middle ground, i mean, less extreme approaches (extreme by my standards of course)
08:42 Framedragger "disowning" etc.
08:42 mircea_popescu this is the most middling of approaches, since it has to do with her cunt.
08:42 mircea_popescu other approaches are more extreme if they focus on limbs.
08:42 Framedragger right :)
08:43 mircea_popescu they are after all called "extremities"
08:44 mircea_popescu (this may sound like it's a joke. it is not a joke. review your standard issue systems design manual (don't tell me they forgot to issue you one!))
08:45 mircea_popescu ("oh but mp, we get to decide when logic applies and when it doesn't!" "riight...")
08:48 mircea_popescu danielpbarron how do i get stuff from your blog that's older than feb ?
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08:49 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636187 << mno, i killed testnet with own hands (at that point it hadn't been of any use in some years) : http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_lets_lose_testnet
08:49 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 05:15 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes one's the testnet iirc
08:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dja remember where receiving of 1st batch FUCKGOATS was announced ?
08:50 asciilifeform on danielpbarron's www
08:50 asciilifeform iirc.
08:50 mircea_popescu can't seem to find it nao.
08:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22danielpbarron.com%22 << also apparently unreported ?
08:51 asciilifeform the report was 'here's 100 for sale'
08:52 mircea_popescu hm. i suspect there's something amiss with his site. anyway.
08:53 shinohai Framedragger: In my experience they nearly all tits with the right motivation :D
08:53 Framedragger hah good to hear :p
09:01 shinohai As I lamented to mircea_popescu the other day though, it is difficult to get them to see the value in Bitcoin (cam/twithos)
09:01 shinohai Otherwise there would be more:
09:01 shinohai !~tits
09:01 jhvh1 ( . Y . ) http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ ( . Y . )
09:01 mircea_popescu lol neat.
09:02 mircea_popescu (. Y .) ( .Y. ) (.Y.)
09:02 mircea_popescu hard to decide which look better...
09:03 shinohai ( o Y o ) < Giant areolas ?
09:03 mircea_popescu lel
09:04 mircea_popescu anyway, twennybux was iirc the international price of the alley blowjob. so...
09:04 shinohai !~later tell jurov Could you have a peek at my order #14214 when you haz time plz?
09:04 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
09:17 * shinohai likes how `areola` gets wavy red lines under because not found in spellcheck dictionary ...
~ 15 minutes ~
09:32 asciilifeform !!up adlai
09:32 deedbot adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
09:32 asciilifeform adlai: let's have it
09:42 adlai S.NSA delivers! well under Two Weeks, too. http://imgur.com/a/zUqmy
09:51 Framedragger ooh israel, cool
09:51 Framedragger i envy the weather
09:54 shinohai adlai gets an ungulate shipped to Israel! >.>
09:54 adlai Framedragger: it actually rained yesterday, but probably the last rain before fall
09:54 Framedragger fuck me
09:55 adlai no, fuck /goats/
09:58 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/no-such-labs-snsa-march-2017-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), March 2017 Statement
10:00 * adlai sets up collection as per http://nosuchlabs.com section 4
10:05 shinohai !!up adlai
10:05 deedbot adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
10:07 adlai shinohai: congratulations on your impending entitlement
10:07 shinohai ty adlai, cheers! o/
10:13 * shinohai wonders if he should build a Russian-style palace with tit-shaped domes .....
10:19 adlai re:RAGEMASTER, couldn't such an implant be mitigated by shielding the cable? (and destroying after use, in case it 'remembers')
10:27 asciilifeform adlai: 'shielded cable' is still quite unshielded on the 2 ends..
10:28 asciilifeform (and the diff b/w a shield and an antenna is the ground. who is going to test the grounds? adlai ?)
10:30 adlai i'm specifically thinking about the implants that require illumination, looks like this one could be trivially foiled (literally)
10:31 adlai in other news, this FG unit appears fully sad (no tty output) unless /both/ modules are attached
10:32 Framedragger isn't that by design?
10:33 adlai it should be half-sad, according to the vendor docs
10:34 Framedragger were both of them present during power-up? i think the idea is to remove them once it's powered up. then it'd be half duty cycle SAD. (haven't tested myself yet tho)
10:34 adlai aha, i can fool it: if a module is removed while it barfs, then it keeps barfing as half-sad
10:34 Framedragger by 'fool' you mean 'as intended' :)
10:35 adlai fwiw this is not 'as instructed', the instructions say to remove both, then add one, switch it across, and then add the second
10:35 adlai following the instructions to the letter results in a fully-sad FG until the final stage
10:36 Framedragger ah if they do - sorry. this was from me reading online doc (http://nosuchlabs.com/), "3)"
10:37 Framedragger "Note: Both RNG-TW (Analogue) modules must be present and in working order during power-up, or FUCKGOATS will remain in a SAD state (steady RED lamp.) When performing basic tests, start with a powered FUCKGOATS, with BOTH RNG-TW (Analogue) modules installed. "
10:37 Framedragger !!up adlai
10:37 deedbot adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
10:37 Framedragger oh that actually werks
10:37 * Framedragger moving self meat
10:37 adlai Framedragger: ty. that note is correct, but the included printout omits it, thus my confusion.
10:38 adlai anyway no biggie.
10:46 mircea_popescu fucking cicadas. sound exactly like fans getting ready to bite it.
10:51 asciilifeform adlai: the online doc is authoritative.
10:51 asciilifeform ( new crates have updated paper copy. )
10:52 asciilifeform also there always remains the option of reading the src !!
10:52 asciilifeform y'know, like folx oughta do.
10:53 shinohai mircea_popescu: same here, and it looks like alien inception or something when they do that 7 yr molting cycle. Damned exoskeletons everywhere.
10:53 asciilifeform where asciilifeform lives, there is a cicadacalypse every 17y
10:53 asciilifeform as in, 1+ per sq. m. of asphalt !
10:55 shinohai "Neotibicen pronotalis is the loudest cicada in North America, and can achieve 108.9 decibels."
11:00 asciilifeform btw, this is not a bad time to explain WHY i set it up so that fg remains 'sad' until BOTH rng start up
11:01 asciilifeform it is so as to make the deterministic test possible. turns out, the warm-up of crystal oscillator is NOT deterministic. so if you let the thing begin IMMEDIATELY when the clock is valid,
11:01 asciilifeform you will not have repeatable operation.
11:01 asciilifeform on the other hand, there is no external input into the box other than the 2 rng.
11:01 asciilifeform (and the optional clock-in)
11:02 asciilifeform the optional clock-in is subject to the same caveat as the internal clock
11:02 asciilifeform so that leaves the rng.
11:03 asciilifeform so we wait for EACH rng : http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis#L360 : to pulse, before entering normal operation.
11:04 asciilifeform this was a pretty serious puzzler, incidentally, for a long time i could not get the deterministic mode to work, and thought that i might have to scrap the design.
11:06 mircea_popescu i recall that adventure.
11:07 mircea_popescu the conclusion being that i'm pretty sure they no longer ~actually manufacture~ the quartz tuning forklets, but instead just produce a soup of the things and then filter the functional ones out or some such
11:07 asciilifeform they're laser-cut
11:07 asciilifeform and yes, sorted (and price-graded)
11:08 asciilifeform and also shift with temperature.
11:13 ben_vulpes ah cute, `find-tags' is deprecated but its replacement `xref-find-definitions' ~doesn't work with c/++ projects
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11:15 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636211 << for now, like this: http://archive.is/danielpbarron.com
11:15 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 12:48 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron how do i get stuff from your blog that's older than feb ?
11:16 mircea_popescu https://www.thelocal.at/20170128/hotel-ransomed-by-hackers-as-guests-locked-in-rooms << was this in the logs btw ?
11:16 mircea_popescu apparently idjits finally gave up on "new! better!" digital locks after being ransomed 4 or so times.
11:17 asciilifeform pretty sure it was in the logs.
11:17 mircea_popescu apparently bitcoin is useful for something after all.
11:17 mircea_popescu ah i must have missed it.
11:21 asciilifeform oh adlai btw that bag was quite certainly opened en route.
11:22 asciilifeform ( they didn't bother to re-wrap the tape in the same direction i did !! lol. )
11:22 asciilifeform !!up adlai
11:22 deedbot adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
11:22 asciilifeform this doesn't necessarily mean 'molested', i suspect that most mail from usa gets opened in customs.
11:23 asciilifeform but there it is.
11:24 adlai on further inspection there are a few small pieces of scotch tape holding the mailing labels in place. if you didn't put these there, then maybe the entire envelope was replaced?
11:24 asciilifeform those -- were put on at the post office in front of me.
11:25 adlai ah. the envelope's seal seemed intact, so they must have worked magic with solvents and glue
11:26 asciilifeform adlai: that 'seal' happily pulls off and reattaches intact 2-3 times.
11:26 asciilifeform with bare hands.
11:27 adlai it was quite well glued by the time it reached my hands
11:27 mircea_popescu aand in random lulz nobody cares about, http://www.anamorodan.com/a-dose-of-reality/
11:27 asciilifeform yeah i suspect most of the postal rape happens ~in~ usa side, adlai
11:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: wtf is this horror
11:29 mircea_popescu aged female with countess gargauni on a third world income.
11:31 mircea_popescu (ex lawyer. re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630740 http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-24#1617673 etc)
11:31 a111 Logged on 2017-03-22 00:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, that's my point, OUT OF THE FUYCKING QUESTION she can, or that any one who was actually a lawyer would even consider trying.
11:31 a111 Logged on 2017-02-24 17:52 mircea_popescu: ahaha oh this is delishious. "My work has appeared in LA Weekly, Vice, Curbed, Complex, ANIMALS, The Daily Dot, and LosAngeles.com" << dork quit law school because tucker max said to and is now a relationships advicerist.
11:36 mircea_popescu anyway, lulzy shit, romania is still in the "first best greatest" age of troglodytism. come to think of it will prolly stay there forever, fucktards can't read.
~ 15 minutes ~
11:51 shinohai Speaking of Romania ..... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8M4ETjUwAA_i-i.jpg
11:51 * shinohai will indeed follow her upstairs.
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~
13:21 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2B1524EA1F2005F151BF5AD14F05A4770CF229AF2A85CF93EE13DE7B29BF16BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1494...9557 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.192.160.243 (ssh-rsa key from 85.192.160.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (lk-auto.ru. RU KHA)
13:21 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2B1524EA1F2005F151BF5AD14F05A4770CF229AF2A85CF93EE13DE7B29BF16BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1513...7513 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.192.160.243 (ssh-rsa key from 85.192.160.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (lk-auto.ru. RU KHA)
13:23 asciilifeform ^ lol, awd auto dealership
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13:30 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F67EDDF10BEAB4C4D0A161FE40C1AE62CD442D211F0A90FBD538D4EA4911BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1363...0633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.221.145.103 (ssh-rsa key from 92.221.145.103 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (103.92-221-145.customer.lyse.net. NO)
13:30 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F67EDDF10BEAB4C4D0A161FE40C1AE62CD442D211F0A90FBD538D4EA4911BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1718...5037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.221.145.103 (ssh-rsa key from 92.221.145.103 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (103.92-221-145.customer.lyse.net. NO)
~ 18 minutes ~
13:48 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BE3A2C56ABBFDC69088A0DD7876215EC7EA4ED640493A522564D5B07BB5A5CED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1527...1917 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '129.199.13.12 (ssh-rsa key from 129.199.13.12 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR 75 J)
13:48 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BE3A2C56ABBFDC69088A0DD7876215EC7EA4ED640493A522564D5B07BB5A5CED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1659...4883 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '129.199.13.12 (ssh-rsa key from 129.199.13.12 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR 75 J)
13:57 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/8D0B23D9C56BE4BC7261FEE604AB406EC7BEA23D86D1C0DBA414C1B2E3AC94EE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1525...4537 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.182.62.80 (ssh-rsa key from 62.182.62.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (80-62.182.62.static.priorweb.net. BE)
13:57 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/8D0B23D9C56BE4BC7261FEE604AB406EC7BEA23D86D1C0DBA414C1B2E3AC94EE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1731...7039 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.182.62.80 (ssh-rsa key from 62.182.62.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (80-62.182.62.static.priorweb.net. BE)
13:59 CompanionCube Phuctor seems to be on a roll right now.
14:01 * shinohai ssh's in and deletes everyone's car pymt info, becoming the Robin Hood of Autos http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636328
14:01 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 17:23 asciilifeform: ^ lol, awd auto dealership
14:05 asciilifeform CompanionCube: this is the typical daily yield. it usually comes out in 2-3 bursts tho.
14:05 CompanionCube asciilifeform: it normally feels more spread-out than this
14:06 CompanionCube dealer ship's ssh: 'SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.9p1 Debian-5ubuntu1.7'
14:07 asciilifeform CompanionCube: ~90% of the yield to date, is on account of debian
14:07 asciilifeform 'gift that keeps on giving'
14:07 CompanionCube asciilifeform: the 'debianized' boxes, as you call them right?
14:09 CompanionCube no response from the 2nd/3rd, SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1 for the last one.
~ 17 minutes ~
14:26 Framedragger CompanionCube: you can use `!$ getarchive some_ip some_other_ip . . .` to get banners from the time of scan. (can do this as privmsg, `/msg scriba help`)
14:27 CompanionCube ah, thanks
14:27 Framedragger (sorry meant, can *also* do this as privmsg)
14:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-16#1453092 << as an ignoble fucktard (who got killed by the very golum he helped create) put it.
14:27 a111 Logged on 2016-04-16 18:25 mircea_popescu: "debian world's first [albeit primitive] app store" jesus fucking christ i've never been this insulted in my life.
14:27 Framedragger mircea_popescu: shit i meant `!$ ssh` not getarchive, i'm forgetting myself lol.
14:28 Framedragger and i meant CompanionCube not mircea_popescu
14:28 Framedragger too much coffee for me
14:28 mircea_popescu how's the ganja brother
14:28 Framedragger dope'y. i can't see the keyboard through all this dope smoke
14:28 mircea_popescu dope.
14:34 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-comfort-of-strangers/ << Trilema - The Comfort of Strangers
14:37 Framedragger btw will see if i can set up complete re-scan in ~june (should be easier this time, ~all of logic was scripted and recorded)
14:37 Framedragger (maybe earlier)
14:39 mircea_popescu should be funny to see what % of computers stay the same
14:42 Framedragger yeah, definitely.
14:43 Framedragger i'm sure the results would match opinions of teh experts as usual
~ 33 minutes ~
15:16 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-31#1635314 << pretty fascinating; does this fall under the category of CRISPR (complete amateur question)? as in, "shit inserted in your dna by $parasite long ago, now you depend on it"
15:16 a111 Logged on 2017-03-31 19:19 mircea_popescu: here's some random lul : wolbachia is possibly the most successful bacteria ; in any case is the most widely distributed sexual transmitted disease ; about half of all insects extant carry some form ; many species can't reproduce if uninfected, or cant' even survive.
15:16 * Framedragger bbl
15:17 Framedragger (just tried to come up with an actual definition of CRISPR, too deep, failed, so not even sure if q makes sense)
15:20 Framedragger wait no CRISP is the *immune response* to shit like ^. something like "distributed redundant backups of parts of dna" (repeated sequences). so nvm, 2deep4me
15:21 Framedragger CRISPR*
15:24 ben_vulpes in which nerds continue to assume that basic problems of coordination and capital allocation can be solved with technology, specifically ethereum: https://blog.ethlance.com/ethlance-introducing-job-sponsorships-84a7f7ca07d3
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15:30 Framedragger fascinating (also their invoice and employment examples are very convincing)
15:31 Framedragger ^ re above, last noob note, so [citing HN so grain of salt, etc.] this one gene (Cas9) has two functions: locating a dna sequence matching given chunk of rna, and cutting dna at that location. this substr() and insert_at_location().. together with some other genes it probably makes the whole thing turing complete. (~known, but particular demonstrations are interesting.) (also probably in the logs heh.)
15:32 trinque ben_vulpes: ofc, because then you get to build a wicked-sweet control room http://afflictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cyb.jpg
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15:33 ben_vulpes Framedragger: well is it in the logs or not?
15:33 Framedragger i didn't find it (did search).
15:34 ben_vulpes trinque: some day, buddy. some day.
15:36 shinohai lulzy ben_vulpes
15:36 shinohai Perhaps they will find bright minds to repair their replacement DNS, which broke in a day.
~ 56 minutes ~
16:33 ben_vulpes shinohai: what, still not fixed?
16:33 mircea_popescu !!key Skydragon
16:33 deedbot Not registered.
16:36 mircea_popescu Framedragger not really, no
16:37 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes more like idiots, tbh. "any problems we don't understand will be solved by the amulet of not understood problems. we sacrificed the right nuymber of goats on the right day, no need to worry about it."
16:38 mircea_popescu trinque that looks like something straight out of 70s sexploitations.
16:39 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: control room for brazilian planned economy iirc
16:39 mircea_popescu check out how close i got!
16:39 ben_vulpes you are a marvel
16:40 mircea_popescu i credit watching "women behind bars" right before fading off for a nap earlier.
16:40 trinque chilean actually
16:41 trinque easy to mix up one's utopian, south american communisms
16:41 ben_vulpes aaah
16:42 ben_vulpes that's right
16:42 mircea_popescu especially considering they're little more than off-color naked women anyhow.
16:44 shinohai !!key Skydragon
16:44 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/9B6629DDC9016A34681833CEA532F421B50CF7C7.asc
16:51 mircea_popescu and in other three ring bindings, https://68.media.tumblr.com/6b8c7736f7aff642103d4ff36071efa1/tumblr_ont5n3xduf1qmqb21o1_1280.png
16:53 * shinohai wonders if this is what the guy looks like that operates his twitter account ....
16:53 mircea_popescu i think so ya.
16:54 mircea_popescu meanwhile in illegal bestialities, http://dogbeauties.tumblr.com/
16:54 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636371 << is this the one from star dreck, or the imitation that general alexander built at ft meade ?
16:54 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 19:32 trinque: ben_vulpes: ofc, because then you get to build a wicked-sweet control room http://afflictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cyb.jpg
16:54 asciilifeform (they look quite similar)
16:55 mircea_popescu the things idiots build always look the same.
16:55 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: chile, turns out
16:56 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: oh hey the allende central planning computer thing
16:56 asciilifeform i remember it
16:56 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636368 << lulzy, e.g., 'Now you have to choose authorized addresses that will be allowed to spend funds from sponsors. These addresses will be in charge of evaluating whether work was properly done and therefore they’ll be paying freelancer’s invoices. Note, not even job creator himself has to be allowed to spend funds. Job creator can be somebody who’s willing to spend free time for community
16:56 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 19:24 ben_vulpes: in which nerds continue to assume that basic problems of coordination and capital allocation can be solved with technology, specifically ethereum: https://blog.ethlance.com/ethlance-introducing-job-sponsorships-84a7f7ca07d3
16:56 asciilifeform to coordinate job (do hiring, communication, etc.), but not necessarily have to be expert in the field to be able to check freelancer’s work (e.g check developer’s code).'
16:57 asciilifeform almost like these folx never heard of sybil etc.
16:57 mircea_popescu these folks never heard of ANYTHING
16:57 mircea_popescu they literally sit on ass all day converse with their own tulpas.
16:57 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636296 << find-tags deprecated?? that's like deprecating self-insert-command or move-beginning-of-line or something. the fuck is wrong with these people
16:57 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 15:13 ben_vulpes: ah cute, `find-tags' is deprecated but its replacement `xref-find-definitions' ~doesn't work with c/++ projects
16:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yeah but the impression i used to get in the past, is of cynical fraud, well aware of the sheer lunacy of the claims
16:58 asciilifeform this -- looks like mere idiocy
16:58 mircea_popescu that's how things go. first, cynical fraud. then, a generation grown up on cynical fraud -- all mongoloids.
16:58 asciilifeform phf: hey, they 'deprecated' flymake (that works with all sane compilers past and future) in favour of 'flycheck' liquishit
17:00 phf merely observing maggot activity on the putrefying body
17:00 asciilifeform phf: the 'make bsd with vtronic portagetron' thing looks slightly more appealing every day
17:01 asciilifeform at one point i answered mircea_popescu's 'you could not replicate your workstation' challenge with the gentoo cure. but that will only work 'while supplies last', i'm not even certain when the last time was that anyone tested it
17:02 asciilifeform if gentoo.org etc evaporate, or , as more likely, go the usual way of decay -- that'll be all, for it
17:02 mircea_popescu i know i couldn't get it to the point where eg it's in the eulora wiki as "do this to run eulora"
17:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc you somehow, somewhere got a box where it wouldn't even boot the install disk
17:03 mircea_popescu that's enough.
17:03 asciilifeform ( not a thing i have ever personally witnessed, but new depths of vendor retardation are discovered every day )
17:03 asciilifeform phf, ben_vulpes , shinohai , trinque , anybody ever saw a box like this ?
17:04 mircea_popescu but i confess it'd still be a great thing if i actually had a canned answer for "oh, eulora doesn't run on my system". and it'd be lovely if it'd just happen to consist of you know, $item tmsr actually wants to take over.
17:04 mircea_popescu but... rather distant bridge i'm guessing.
17:05 asciilifeform the eulora thing is complicated because gpu
17:05 asciilifeform afaik all known eulora-capable (e.g. any 3d acceleration at all) gpu require blob
17:05 mircea_popescu nobody ELSE is going to switch systems, you realise.
17:05 asciilifeform and what requires blob, requires very particular (linux 3-4.x) kernel, to eat it.
17:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i was thinking of much more modest item -- replacement of ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' with something replicable on demand, for eternity (vtronic repo, vtronic 'portage')
17:07 mircea_popescu aha
17:07 mircea_popescu certainly the btc musl thing is a major cornerstone in that vein.
17:07 mircea_popescu actually how i even got the idea.
17:07 asciilifeform a thing that exists as buncha genesisen and can turn into a usable workstation os (gcc, gnat, x11, emacs, lynx, etc)
17:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a fairly obvious extension of 'rotor'
17:07 mircea_popescu yes.
17:08 * ben_vulpes pants at the notion
17:08 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: pete_dushenski was bitching about a box not eating cdrom recently
17:08 ben_vulpes !#s target mode
17:08 a111 1 result for "target mode", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=target%20mode
17:08 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: exotic bigendian thing, neh
17:08 ben_vulpes you asked if i ever
17:08 danielpbarron asciilifeform, i was just thinking that earlier today. I want to host my own portage mirror
↖
17:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu had what looked like an ordinary x86.
17:09 asciilifeform danielpbarron: it is possible to do it, but the problem is that there is nothing to mirror any longer
17:09 asciilifeform the extant ones are rotten
17:09 mircea_popescu i suspect he meant "my own selection"
17:09 danielpbarron do you not have them?
17:09 ben_vulpes fwiw the trees are intact.
17:09 asciilifeform and ideally we would be killing the heathen swamp rather than placing it on life support
17:09 danielpbarron yeah i got my own, but feel free to tar.gz.asc it to me :D
17:10 phf portage doesn't include the original source code, so even if you have the tree, need to make sure that all the external urls resolve
17:10 asciilifeform ^
17:10 ben_vulpes D:
17:10 asciilifeform phf: and i have found, that quite often -- they do not
17:10 shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636445 <<< THis would be nifty
17:10 a111 Logged on 2017-04-03 21:08 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i was just thinking that earlier today. I want to host my own portage mirror
17:10 phf it's the same with openbsd's ports, netbsd pkgsrc, mac's homebrew, etc.
17:11 danielpbarron it's not enough to just put an IP of my choosing in /etc/portage/make.conf under GENTOO_MIRRORS="" ?
17:11 asciilifeform phf: exactly
17:11 ben_vulpes so nobody vendored?
17:11 asciilifeform phf: which is why a serious answer is to go 'full biosphere'
17:11 ben_vulpes nobody in the history of linux distros vendored
17:11 phf ben_vulpes: what they end up vendoring is binary package artifacts from the port builds
17:11 ben_vulpes what was that...not even "sourcerer"?
17:11 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: nobody after the age of 'spam cdrom', where, e.g., rathead 5 HAD TO fit on 5 disks 'or what, user will use his dial-up to load the rest?\
17:11 asciilifeform '
17:11 mircea_popescu phf yeah, but still, we have some experience with the neat trb building process. it can be done.
17:11 ben_vulpes phf: bin and not src?
17:11 phf debian vendors, i suspect so does redhat, because they package the original source into own packages
17:12 asciilifeform and yes, phf nails it, nobody 'vendored' sources.
17:12 asciilifeform 'what, luser will build it all?'
17:12 mircea_popescu yes.
17:12 danielpbarron i have some stage3 tarball i keep reusing
17:13 asciilifeform danielpbarron: around the time gentoo irrevocably went to shit, notice, it stopped supporting stage1 builds
17:13 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes the history of linux is not like the history of a respectable item. it's like "the history of the human biofilm on the floors of grand central station, 1817-2017".
17:13 danielpbarron i'm not skilled enough to know what stageN even means
17:13 mircea_popescu yes two centuries, but not of SOMETHING.
17:14 asciilifeform danielpbarron: at one time, gentoo came with instructions for how to build it from 0 (using only an existing c compiler, and buncha src tarballs)
17:14 mircea_popescu because "Freedom" dontchaknow, and self-determination, and everyone can just be a bum.
17:14 ben_vulpes ubi can't happen soon enough
17:14 trinque asciilifeform: now there is "stage4"
17:14 ben_vulpes everyone straight to the cinderblock palace
17:14 trinque because the beoble must
17:14 asciilifeform trinque: i stopped reading the 'nows' a while ago.
17:14 trinque better for digestion that
17:14 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu has it, 'house without architect' looks like brazil.
17:15 asciilifeform the modern brazil.
17:15 phf debian comes closest to what would be considered "proper" in tmsr terms. the package archive is curated, the source is fully owned by the package author, etc. you can still grab old debian 10cd sets and have the entire slice of linux computing from the time
17:15 asciilifeform phf: pretty sure it stowed binary packages in there
17:15 mircea_popescu which incidentally is the principal reason mp doesn't speak against the bsd subversion/heresy.
17:16 asciilifeform waiwat
17:16 asciilifeform ( which bsd ? bsd died six different deaths, at different times ..)
17:16 phf asciilifeform: the complete debian releases from back in the day included both package and package source trees
17:17 asciilifeform phf: in my experience if something 'includes both', it really expects you to use binary crapola at ~some~ point.
17:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform neither of them are linux though.
17:18 ben_vulpes !!up derpshart
17:18 deedbot derpshart voiced for 30 minutes.
17:18 asciilifeform ~whole point of bsd is to 'not linux' -- the bsds are relics from the time before the 'biofilm', when there was still some coordination and, e.g., same people wrote kernel and userland-utils
17:18 ben_vulpes hose yr key?
17:18 phf asciilifeform: that's a bootstrapping problem though. at least at the time that i'm speaking off, it was ~expected~ that you would do a custom build of some of your packages, and they whole deploy process relied on source packages being built by not-package-author
17:18 mircea_popescu myeah
17:19 derpshart https://thecontrol.co/stablecoins-a-holy-grail-in-digital-currency-b64f3371e111 <-- lulzy idea for alt coin (ethereum token ofc) tied to price of "special drawing rights"
17:19 mircea_popescu phf this is sane, imo. exposes all the dirty hacks which "in kindergarten" etc.
17:20 mircea_popescu derpshart this idea is an uncredited rehash of stuff i said in 2011, aka not an idea.
17:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2013-07-08#130942 etc.
17:20 a111 Logged on 2013-07-08 13:30 mircea_popescu: just like i showed the SDRs as the exact equivalent, and people ignored it because well... they never had one so it don't exist.
17:21 trinque https://man.cx/apt-build(1) << can build all debian packages from source
17:21 asciilifeform trinque: what does it need in order to begin to exist on the box, though ?
17:21 asciilifeform to begin with
17:21 trinque what does rotor need
17:21 trinque in this case needs a debian sitting there, yes
17:21 asciilifeform rotor needs : gcc (all versions tested to date, afaik, worked) and userland utils
17:22 asciilifeform (sed; make; possibly a few others)
17:22 trinque notbad
17:22 asciilifeform iirc it worked even on crapple
17:22 derpshart mircea_popescu interesting analogy
17:22 phf that pretends like bootstrapping problem doesn't exist though. "step 1 find a unix box you can fully trust!1"
17:22 asciilifeform whereas if the debian util needs ~a working debian box~, it solves ~nothing~
17:24 asciilifeform phf: problems that cannot be solved, are to be properly compartmentalized -- consider a house with a toilet, vs one where the occupants shit where they stand.
17:24 asciilifeform yes, no one will ever 'solve' shit.
17:24 mircea_popescu phf the "need gcc and userland utils" you mean ?
17:24 asciilifeform also noteworthy is that gcc ~at one time~ was in fact buildable with non-gcc.
17:24 trinque any of a wide array of options is a different situation than "needs frozen same item as being built"
17:24 phf mircea_popescu: yes, the "you don't actually need a machine, just gcc and userland"
17:25 trinque neither is ideal, which would be a progressive bootstrap from machine code up
17:25 asciilifeform it would be interesting to produce a patched gcc that is happy to build with, e.g., borland c circa 1991.
17:25 asciilifeform this ought to be possible, considering that fabrice bellard got linux kernel to built with his 'tcc'
17:25 mircea_popescu phf i think hes' right though. we're not going to be solving shit.
17:26 mircea_popescu one possible approach would be a... non-optimizing compiler, let's call it a bootstrap compiler.
17:26 phf it seems like to me like we're trying to compartmenalize counterparty problem, but afau from logs you solve counterparty problem through trusted counterparty, not "hygiene" etc.
17:26 mircea_popescu run a "who can wriote the shortest c compiler".
17:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tcc exists.
17:27 asciilifeform probably oughta be studied
17:27 asciilifeform and adaized.
17:27 mircea_popescu prolly
17:27 mircea_popescu phf delve ?
17:27 asciilifeform phf: we had at least one thread re subj. basic idea that anyone who claims to understand a million-line proggy, is a liar.
17:28 asciilifeform it is physically impossible to do an honest job of such a thing.
17:28 mircea_popescu how long is tcc ?
17:28 asciilifeform and therefore in order for the 'find trusted auditor' to have MEANING, the item being audited must fit-in-head.
17:28 mircea_popescu and afaik it wasn't specifically written to solve the bootstrap problem. prolly could be shortened thertefore.
17:28 asciilifeform http://www.bellard.org/tcc
17:29 asciilifeform seems to be ~77k line.
17:29 asciilifeform and that's with, iirc, no back end.
17:29 phf asciilifeform: you introduce gcc, userland, etc. in the mix already. so either the whole system must fit in head, or else it's not an important prereq for you
17:30 asciilifeform phf: the reason why i have not attempted the contemplated exercise, nor seriously encouraged others to do so, is that you are right -- c and unix MUST die.
17:30 asciilifeform must be killed, with fire.
17:30 mircea_popescu and you'll bitcoin on lisp machine ?
17:30 asciilifeform ^
17:30 asciilifeform the reason the subj comes up again and again
17:30 asciilifeform is that very soon it will be impossible to build a usable comp on demand.
17:30 asciilifeform at all.
17:31 phf lisp machine fwiw doesn't solve bootstrapping problem either.. have to trust a binary blob that you got from your l1
17:31 mircea_popescu aha.
17:32 mircea_popescu i seriously don't see the problem with "i trust this pared down version of tcc - it builds a very slow blob but it does build it - and these tools which i read myself"
17:32 trinque if one's going to set off creating one, might consider making that blob as (auditably) small as possible
17:32 mircea_popescu seems a doable waypoint.
17:32 trinque lisp machine I mean.
17:32 trinque "here's this syslisp written in the machine code of the hardware"
17:33 asciilifeform trinque: i've had an x64 asm scheme thing on back burner for eons.
17:33 phf mircea_popescu: tcc doesn't run on bare metal though
17:33 trinque wrong machine though I gather from you, asciilifeform
17:33 asciilifeform but again, has serious political problem, in my head, in that i would like x64 to DIE, not to live.
17:33 trinque yep
17:33 trinque not wrong approach
17:34 mircea_popescu phf but could be musl'd neh ?
17:34 asciilifeform but on the other hand, at some point the pain will begin to be felt, 'i want to build emacs but where do i get not only it but a box that'll build pre-poettering emacs at all, and where do i even get the gcc that still builds it'
17:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you kill things in the order you can not in the order you want.
17:34 asciilifeform right
17:34 mircea_popescu 1st lesson for young warrior.
17:35 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: sterling: "i'm astonished that i will probably outlive the 'personal computer'. what would anyone want one of those for these days anyways. 'hey you, do you want a personal computer? you can...compute on it! in private! nobody would ever know!' it just doesn't sell to the touchscreen zombies, no offense to present company."
17:35 asciilifeform but the danger of keeping the fungus alive , when it could have been killed -- is imho very real. it is what linux, for instance, ended up doing: keeping the idiot pc architecture alive long past 1995, when it should have burned
17:36 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes the notion that computers are mass market items are ridiculous. no, rakim didn't want one in 1977 either.
17:36 mircea_popescu because rakim is stuck bagging my compras for a fucking reason. and nobody asks him which way the world goes.
17:37 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the availability of general-purpose comp was ~pure accident. and quite temporary. just like, say, lathes used to be ubiquitous back when auto repair needed one.
17:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform had pc burned in 1995 you'd be collecting computers from ebay, via tyour tablet today.
17:37 asciilifeform (as they were aboard, e.g., submarines)
17:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i already do this.
17:37 ben_vulpes myeah, still took the americhanskis a few decades to figure it out, and most haven't yet.
17:37 mircea_popescu i do not.
17:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: alternative is to buy shitbox built by chinese for argentina, where power cord comes out of bottom ? and gentoo won't boot
17:38 asciilifeform or which.
17:38 phf mircea_popescu: i think nature of bootstrapping problem is that you have to choose a bedrock that you can affect, and that bedrock falls under counterparty problem. if your bedrock is hardware, then it's foundries that you trust. if your bedrock is a "a unix" then you need to trust a large binary blob. yes you can construct a rube goldberg that gives you unix from bedrock without having trust, but we don't have anything like that
17:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you lost me.
17:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what i meant is -- i buy comp hardware secondhand, almost always
17:39 mircea_popescu phf do you trust your girlfriend ?
17:39 asciilifeform and yes it means you have to pull the eproms, burn own, etc
17:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform had pc died in 1985, apple would be in charge of computing today, and all software would consist of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629701
17:40 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 20:46 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :
17:40 mircea_popescu ALL software.
17:40 phf mircea_popescu: within expected operational parameters
17:40 asciilifeform phf: the need to 'trust the foundry' evaporates under the 'SOLELY fpga fabric' model of computation. we had the thread.
17:40 mircea_popescu phf which is my point. trust is not binary. yes you trust her, but many things she thinks you care about you don't, and even more you care in different contexts and to different levels than she imagines.
17:40 phf asciilifeform: you're just moving the counterparty problem around, which is exactly my point
17:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: quite conceivably commodore inc would have won -- and pc would come with schematics and signal chart.
17:41 asciilifeform crapple was not, in '80s, what it is today.
17:41 asciilifeform was just another set of derps.
17:41 phf mircea_popescu: that's not directly relevant to my point though
17:41 mircea_popescu if i come up with random "will you phf guarantee to me that if i swab her cheek on so and so date there won't be a spermatozoid in the microscope field", you'll just shrug.
17:41 trinque moving the counterparty problem under a microscope where human can inspect it is not equivalent to the other given cases
17:41 mircea_popescu well that's what i want to discuss, seems to me it's central to the point. what's the disconnect ?
17:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform inconceivable, but this discussion is not something we can actually carry satisfactorily i guess. we'll hafta let it be.
17:42 asciilifeform trinque: recall the 'specificity of diddling' thread; inspection is only one of the two known defenses.
17:43 asciilifeform ( the other is to build system out of movable blocks in such a way that it becomes conceptually impossible to build a proper 'surprise' )
17:43 asciilifeform per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-24#1617495 discussion.
17:43 a111 Logged on 2017-02-24 02:36 asciilifeform: veen: let's try a historical angle. according to legend, emperor qin shi huangdi (same d00d as known for taking the 'immortality pill' and promptly croaking) had a palace with 1,500 rooms. and would not tell anyone in advance which one he plans to sleep in on a given night. and which ones he would put cutthroats in, ready to kill anyone who opens door. think 'minesweeper.'
17:43 phf mircea_popescu: trust in bootstrapping problem is a specific concern that comes from ken thompson's "reflections on trusting trust"
17:43 mircea_popescu phf state it ?
17:44 phf you can design a malicious bootstrapper that will compromise the bootstrapped code
17:44 mircea_popescu you can do this ?
17:44 phf so it's irrelevant if the bootstrapped code is inspectable
17:45 mircea_popescu i think we're not talking of the same thing. so, i have, for the sake of argument, a 50k line bcc, which builds c and doesn't optimize. it's my bootstrapping compiler. it runs on musl, say. i fire up a pogo, put this on, and proceed to build a kernel during the next week.
17:46 mircea_popescu meanwhile you, catchingwind of this, go into your thomspon shrine, say abracadabra and now my kernel is infected with phf-rat ?
17:46 phf the machine that you built your bcc on could already be infected, and the resulting bcc binary is compromised
17:46 asciilifeform nah. try different angle:
17:47 mircea_popescu phf but will it necessarily be infected ?
17:47 asciilifeform let's say that every machine that ever saw a linux kernel tarball, since, say, 2002, patched it.
17:47 asciilifeform so nobody's checksum fails, etc.
17:47 asciilifeform including author's.
17:47 phf gcc has a long living nsa hack that modifies some pattern in a malicious way, etc.
17:48 asciilifeform ( not to say that this is practical, but it would be ~the~ thompson angle. )
17:48 asciilifeform aha. ideally something very simple, that 'looks like typo'
17:48 * trinque being an idiot in these matters, has a very stupid (and unfinished) scheme in x86-64 asm
17:48 asciilifeform an off-by-one in array,e tc
17:48 asciilifeform trinque: i suspect that almost everyone here has one
17:49 trinque so then, the path is up from there. I fail to see the flaw with it (other than wrong arch)
17:49 asciilifeform trinque: i stopped working on subj when i utterly failed, after many months of effort, to get an ab initio GB nic driver to exist
17:49 trinque right, so that's a separate matter
17:49 asciilifeform trinque: the flaw is that you gotta support a megatonne of liquishit for even nic to work -- dma, page tables, etc
↖
17:49 asciilifeform it isn't a 'separate matter', it is a lifetime of liquishit pumping
17:50 trinque no. it is entirely separate from "does this approach to bootstrapping work"
17:50 asciilifeform you can view the result of the last set of folx who did it, 'movitz', which boots on 0 modern irons.
17:50 trinque it is miles from there
17:50 ben_vulpes throw the nic out, we're going to shortwave anyways
17:51 asciilifeform enemy pumps in new hardware that 'you MUST support, or otherwise you WILL buy your comps on ebay strictly' faster than you can driver.
17:51 trinque yes still have to apply the WoT to whether I can trust the man, but if I *do*, it is possible to be said that the man who started from step 1 had the whole fucker in his head.
17:51 trinque he wrote the ASM
17:51 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if i can't connect comp to $othercomp at bus speed - you lost me.
17:52 asciilifeform trinque: problem is that every gb nic in existence needs a blob.
17:52 phf mircea_popescu: i'm not saying that it's going to be infected. i'm saying that's what trust means in a bootstrapping problem. if you're not concerned about that angle, you can relax trust requirements significantly.
17:52 asciilifeform (and afaik every 100M nic currently in production)
17:52 trinque conversation has to proceed outward for it to work
17:52 trinque just like the imagined item
17:52 asciilifeform trinque: the x64 box that 'you can get the docs for' is , as i learned experimentally and very painfully -- a strictly imagined item
17:52 trinque the ASM builds syslisp, syslisp builds compiler, compiler builds system approach works
17:53 trinque stated by novice, ofc
17:53 asciilifeform you cannot gabriel_laddel your way around the shitfest that is the iron.
17:53 asciilifeform dun have to take my word for it, can try it yourself, burn a decade like i did.
17:53 trinque !!gettrust trinque asciilifeform
17:53 deedbot L1: 3, L2: 13 by 8 connections.
17:53 trinque nah I hear ya :p
17:54 asciilifeform ( consider naggum's description -- 'our field does not actually advance, because we are broken people who do not learn from mistakes' or how was it. )
↖
17:54 trinque question is whether "I must ask $guy for $binaryblob" or not.
17:55 asciilifeform incidentally, in olden days, most folks used no asmer
17:55 asciilifeform they asmed on grid paper
17:55 asciilifeform and rom burners were often boxes with hex keypads
17:55 trinque answer's trivially yes, but size of the thing isn't moot. or do I misrepresent phf?
17:55 asciilifeform it is not difficult to build a gadget that dumps an eprom to paper tape
17:55 asciilifeform and such a gadget is not, save for the eprom, in the usual sense 'electronic'
17:55 mircea_popescu phf now now. don't squirm away. let's have the discussion. what exactly IS the concern.
17:56 asciilifeform (can simply be row of lamps, and moving photo paper.)
17:56 mircea_popescu state it plainly and without reference, in its complete formulation.
17:58 phf mircea_popescu: unless you have full control over your bootstrap machine you're not guaranteed to have full control over your bootstrapped machine.
17:58 asciilifeform trinque: so, while machine requires 'blob' to boot (note though, e.g., pdp8, did not, also had hex keypad) -- it is not necessarily true that said 'blob' is not optically readable by human.
17:58 mircea_popescu phf this is elementarily false. i don't have full control over eg female biology, enjoy full control over my slavegirls.
17:59 mircea_popescu i don't have full control over turbulent flow, nevertheless fly unmolested. and so following.
17:59 mircea_popescu let's distinguish the genuine problem from "sky is falling in pies and nsa owns thermodynamics"
17:59 trinque seems to underscore the need to inspect outputs and comprehend them
17:59 trinque ties in with asciilifeform's too
17:59 phf well, i didn't finish
17:59 phf .
17:59 mircea_popescu trinque they're blisfully unaware of the power of comparison, which is why that part of the discussion keeps being shied away from.
17:59 mircea_popescu phf oh sorry.
18:00 mircea_popescu please put a terminator when you're done and i'ma do my best to ignore the interlopers!
18:00 phf well, i think that the comparison is obscures the actual point
18:00 mircea_popescu no, no, start over. full statement of the problem, explicitly terminated. ty.
18:00 phf kk
18:01 phf any arbitrary chain of "i compile tcc that i use to compile gcc that i use to compile kernel" can be compromised even if you have full sources, read and understood etc. of tcc, gcc and kernel.
18:03 phf you introduce the hack in the original compiler that you used to compile tcc. the original compiler, having prior knowledge of the chain, or some arbitrary compilation of chains, will ensure that the first tcc you get will propagate the hack further down
18:04 trinque phf: that problem is introduced *by* the urge to write your compiler in its own language, neh?
18:04 phf in this case control of the bootstrap machine is at the very least equivalent to "if i compile a source, would the behavior of the binary correspond to what the compiler specification fully or not"
18:05 phf and the lack of control means that your bootstrap machine compiler can do arbitrary things to the binary
18:06 phf that's the point so far
18:07 asciilifeform i will add to phf's summary -- if the problem afflicted ~strictly~ compilers, it would be quite easy to solve -- write bootstrap in asm. but there is no rule that it has to affect strictly compiler. could just as easily be - say - the ~loader~.
18:08 asciilifeform anything that eats a maybe-inspected input and produces a never-inspected-but-is-executed output.
18:08 trinque nobody contests the problem exists; it'd be more interesting to discuss where to put it.
18:08 mircea_popescu phf the premise ("1 item can be compromised") is true ; this however is not a ~systematic~ concern. the reason it isn't a systematic concern has everything to do with the imaginary concept of "the hash with checksum". suppose 1) a hash function existed which 2) contained a secret which 3) allowed the possessor to distiguish possible inputs into two classes and then on the basis of the result know whether the input that led to
18:08 mircea_popescu it was class 1 or 2. this is an equivalent notation of the thompson problem for compilers (there's no difference between hashing and compiling in this sense).
18:09 mircea_popescu the problem with this, however, is that the magical hash-with-checksum function ~does not exist~. it's part of trilema sf for a reason.
18:09 mircea_popescu what does exist is a version whereby the secret can be built ~on the basis of~ given inputs.
18:09 mircea_popescu and this sad limitation fundamentally weakens the process, so that if i keep building more complex inputs your ability to make the prediction weakens (by the log of the count, in the pure case)
18:09 mircea_popescu need i break out the math for this or is it obvious from stating ?
18:10 asciilifeform thompson's demo worked for arbitrary N layers.
18:10 asciilifeform trivially.
18:11 mircea_popescu for arbitrary unary layerts.
18:11 mircea_popescu "man in cave"
18:11 asciilifeform (incidentally ~all extant c compilers 'thompsonize' and nobody even seems to notice, because it passes as 'optimize')
18:11 asciilifeform gcc (yes even 4.x) will happily remove certain checks
18:11 mircea_popescu hey, i proposed unoptimizing compiler for the role for reasons!
18:11 asciilifeform aha
18:11 asciilifeform but whereever in the loop one begins to use, e.g., gcc -- from that point on, thompsonized.
18:12 asciilifeform (even if bootloader -- wasn't)
18:12 mircea_popescu not necessarily.
18:12 mircea_popescu and the "not necessarily" sinks it, because now i have what to compare, and that's the end of that.
18:14 asciilifeform incidentally the folx who designed ada, read thompson's paper. and immediately acted. which is why in ada you get 'driving stick'-style control over the compiler, the order in which it puts down routines, and data structures during 'elaboration', and can leave bread crumbs for manual binary auditor (yes) to look for when he compares (yes) binaries built on different systems for same rocket.
↖ ↖
18:14 asciilifeform strictly so that they can be thus compared.
18:15 asciilifeform the standards group stopped short of 'any compiler that shits out a bitstring different from the official one for a particular cpu, is nonconformant', however.
18:15 asciilifeform imho -- ought to have stated this.
18:16 asciilifeform (picture if two d00dz were sent into two separate dungeons , and promised impalement if they come out with c compilers that produce binaries for particular test program that differ EVEN IN ONE BIT. quite impossible for them to avoid the stake, because c is ~nonstandardized~, in the sense where the standard does NOT specify all cases)
18:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform those are all fine examples of "break out of unary".
18:17 asciilifeform unary?
18:18 mircea_popescu ad-hoced it above. the thing which thomson describes, which is a very fundamental "specificly diddlable" process. "man in his cave" sort of thing.
18:18 phf i think the point is that you can't design the process for an arbitraray chain of transformations
18:18 asciilifeform phf: the basic theorem involved in breaking out of a thompsonism is specificity-of-diddling.
18:18 mircea_popescu phf the rub is that you're stuck with infinity on one end. you really can't tell in advance what i'll want your compiler to do.
18:19 mircea_popescu the hope that it'll always find a way to do what you want it to do in front of my boundless requests is essentially the root of government.
18:19 asciilifeform take my old example, 'boobytrap an fpga.' elementarily you WILL need to somehow fit an ai in there, to create any serious problem for UNKNOWN bitstream
18:19 mircea_popescu right.
18:20 asciilifeform the problem with applying this principle to c compiler, is that c offers ~permanent~ fertile ground for booby
18:20 asciilifeform say, remove array overflow check.
18:20 mircea_popescu but this is transparent not opaque.
18:20 mircea_popescu we can read asm wtf.
18:20 asciilifeform or nudge a stack so it overflows if magic number present.
18:20 phf i don't think it's a problem for an arbitrary chain. i was more thinking lizard hitler patches compiler to specifically fuck with rotor3 chain
18:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nobody reads multiMB of asm.
18:20 mircea_popescu phf and then keeps patching ? forever ? from behind the grave ?
18:21 asciilifeform systems where 'rocket MUST launch and we WILL read asm' -- keep it in sane bounds of size.
18:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno who was proposing we don't.
18:21 asciilifeform well, if using ANY 'old world' soft -- gcc, emacs, linux kernel, bsd -- that's a 'won't'.
18:21 asciilifeform because they add up to multi-MB of asm.
18:21 phf mircea_popescu: if rotor4 comes out, must patch again. there's no inf on our side despite the process being potentially inf, because we're limited by time/energy
18:22 asciilifeform ( idiot x86 cpu, means that ~any nontrivial program is multiMB of asm. and hence why i wrote http://www.loper-os.org/?p=256 . )
18:22 mircea_popescu so someone is going to predict rotor4 ?
18:22 mircea_popescu or else patch it after we've used ?
18:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i can trivially patch gcc such that anything later built that uses any string ops whatsoever, with external inputs, is exploitable.
18:23 asciilifeform and it'll be a 1 byte difference in 1 place.
18:23 mircea_popescu because if "patch after used" then it's created a partition which i can use ; and if "predict" then the inf-in-being is rightthere.
18:23 asciilifeform (this is an freshman problem)
18:23 mircea_popescu and i won't be using it.
18:23 asciilifeform you may be already using it, was the idea.
18:23 mircea_popescu yes, but this idea doesn't scale the way phf wants it to scale.
18:24 phf mircea_popescu: of course not predict. likewise no concept of AI is involved anywhere
18:24 mircea_popescu yes, i might. but i don't ~have to~ already be using it.
18:24 mircea_popescu phf it's either predict or expose itself. there's no third.
18:24 phf i agree, but i never said anything in opposition
18:24 mircea_popescu either i get to use my tool frist, in which case i can perceive a change ; or else i don't get to use my tool first, in which case -- prediction is necessary.
18:25 asciilifeform 'perceive a change' how ?
18:25 mircea_popescu well ok, so the understanding of the thompson bootstrap problem is that it's not an absolute bar to bootstrapping, but a possible pitfall ?
18:25 phf if i have an open ssh port on my machine that i don't know about, then the attack can happen any time in between "rotor3" released "i decide to install rotor3""
18:25 asciilifeform say it introduces an off-by-one 0.001% of the time.
18:25 mircea_popescu asciilifeform elementarily, i saw the item run pre-patched, now i see it run patched.
18:25 mircea_popescu phf and if you don't keep the machine online, you don't.
18:25 mircea_popescu again : unarisms are unarisms.
18:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is conceivable that no one now living has ever used a 'pre-patch' gcc. that's the idea, that 'gcc' is not in fact defined by its src, but by the aggregate of 'the published src' + 'the extant sets of built gccs'
18:27 asciilifeform and the latter is largely unexplored
18:27 mircea_popescu and tcc idem ?
18:27 asciilifeform tcc not so, but only if you bootstrap it by hand-compiling to grid paper and entering via toggles.
18:27 asciilifeform (rather than by, as bellard did, compiling with gcc.)
18:27 mircea_popescu obviously, "i choose to live in usg" means... you chose to live in usg. "but i had no other options". hurr.
18:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the outlined plan was to read it, pare it down for the function contemplated, compile it with itself etc.
18:28 asciilifeform but yes, you can elementarily 'exit the cave' by using grid paper, head compiler, toggles. in fact this was one of the first ( the first ?) threads with asciilifeform on mircea_popescu's www comment section
18:28 asciilifeform anyone remember it ?
18:29 asciilifeform the one where 'i can read an eprom without a comp. and write it without a comp. now where is your thompson bomb.'
18:31 asciilifeform but mircea_popescu has it, there is a variety of ways to break out of a hypothetically thompsonized universe. but -- for some reason -- ~entirely 'not done'.
18:31 asciilifeform 'it wouldn't do.' 'only a terrorist would.'
18:31 asciilifeform etc
18:31 mircea_popescu well sure, so it's not done.
18:31 asciilifeform BUT the unfortunate bit is that there are ALSO a variety of ways to end up back ~in~.
18:31 asciilifeform such as, by at any point building gcc
18:31 mircea_popescu but we were discussing what we can do rather than what's done, or such was my understanding.
18:31 asciilifeform and then anything with ~it~.
18:32 mircea_popescu ~all my interest in this dispute is the imo important point that thompson issue & friends is no actual bar to republican computing.
18:32 asciilifeform presently i suspect that mircea_popescu has a correct understanding of thompson.
18:32 asciilifeform but oughta see that thompson is an absolute bar to hygienic computing ~with gcc~ or any other similarly complex compiler.
18:33 mircea_popescu this i won't challenge.
18:33 asciilifeform that was the only point of contention, from asciilifeform .
18:33 asciilifeform really reduces to 'any system that doesn't fit in head is trivially thompsonized.'
18:34 asciilifeform i also suspect that any system that can be thompsonized, eventually will be (given as it propagates, the transformation is permanent). but that is separate point.
18:36 mircea_popescu the other vaguely relevant point is that it's probably cheaper to fix the c machine than to build the lisp machine.
18:37 asciilifeform describe the 'fix'
18:37 mircea_popescu but i don't have enough elements piled up to say what elements i need to say whether this is so or not.
18:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform "runs trb".
18:37 asciilifeform one possible 'fix' is ada-shaped -- compiler makes up for the retardations of c machine, inserts array bounds checks, type checks, etc.
18:37 asciilifeform the down side is obvious:
18:38 asciilifeform the compiler is now gargantuan. and neither it, nor the binaries disasmed, 'fit in head.'
18:38 mircea_popescu in any proper statement, all the eg trb foundation's work goes towards one fold of "fixing c machine" in this sense.
18:38 asciilifeform mno, 0 of the work to date did anything whatsoever to 'fix c machine'
18:38 mircea_popescu it is trying to fix the trb, which is a component of the c machine, defined as "runs trb"
18:39 asciilifeform it was all, to date, 100% life support, strictly to forestall http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1627008 .
18:39 a111 Logged on 2017-03-14 17:34 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1626921 << yes. there's absolutely no argument that bitcoin dying on the enemy's terms would be an unmitigated catastrophe. chernobyl pales in comparison, it'd be on the level of "wheel is useless anyway" wisdom of dropped-on-head amerindians, or "oh pretty, spinning wheels" greek steam engine. utterly catastrophic. which is why eg http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-march-2013-statement/#selection
18:39 mircea_popescu sure.
18:39 mircea_popescu these are not mutually exclusive statements.
18:39 asciilifeform they are wholly unrelated efforts.
18:39 mircea_popescu i don't see they are distinct.
18:39 asciilifeform not a single second of time spent reading or massaging shitoshi's liquishit, contributed anything whatsoever to the c machine problem.
18:40 mircea_popescu how do you know this ?
18:40 asciilifeform how do i know that it does not also propel the earth along its orbit.
18:40 asciilifeform the presumption that i have to prove the negative here, is ludicrous.
18:40 mircea_popescu well, if you are found with dead body and smoking gun, you'll have to prove the negative alright.
18:41 mircea_popescu in any case : it's work done upon a portion of the c machine. what more is needed to qualify ?
18:41 asciilifeform do what you will to trb, it is still written in idiot language that does not check bounds, on idiot iron that does not check bounds.
18:41 mircea_popescu sure.
18:41 asciilifeform masssaging of turd -- produces turd, not ferrocement.
18:41 asciilifeform turds do not workharden.
18:42 mircea_popescu code workhardens.
18:42 asciilifeform it pointedly does not.
18:42 asciilifeform that is the fundamental discovery of 25 years of c idiocy.
18:42 asciilifeform any day of the week, thing can be silently and imperceptibly broken.
18:42 mircea_popescu i suppsoe you define work differently from me.
18:42 asciilifeform because the conceptual foundations are retarded.
18:43 asciilifeform this in fact is a practical definition of 'turd' in our context : item that, massage it as you will, is still fundamentally broken by design.
18:43 mircea_popescu that has nothin to do however.
18:44 mircea_popescu at the very least things were learned about how trb is ~supposed to~ function, and this is sufficient to qualify it.
18:44 asciilifeform and this 'fixes c machine' how ?
18:44 mircea_popescu "c machine" defined as "item that runs trb" is thereby fixed through becoming more apparent than it previously was.
18:45 asciilifeform ( this also ignores the -- screamingly evident -- fact of trb being ~algorithmically~ defective. as explored on several occasions here. )
18:45 mircea_popescu and how did we find this out ?
18:45 asciilifeform i can't speak for others,
18:45 asciilifeform but i found out with pen and paper.
18:46 asciilifeform by looking at the data structures.
18:46 mircea_popescu work on massaging the protoypes is work towards the item prototyped, what's so unpalatable about this.
18:46 asciilifeform 0. but it is imho odd to describe the process as 'fixes c machine'
18:46 mircea_popescu why not ?
18:46 mircea_popescu or i mean, why's it odd.
18:46 asciilifeform 'c machine' has a specific meaning, refers to the type of cpu that traces descent to the transistor-impoverished 1970s, when bounds check was seen as unaffordable luxury.
18:46 mircea_popescu not anymore.
18:47 mircea_popescu c machine does have a specific meaning, and it is "item which runs trb."
18:47 mircea_popescu it's slowly emerged into obviousness that pretending "bitcoin is software" makes in fact 0 sense, and is entirely borne of idiocy. bitcoin is not "userland". bitcoin is the whole thing.
18:48 asciilifeform trb (the currently existing item) could quite conceivably run on entirely different type of machine, under emulation (smbx , for instance, shipped... believe -- a c compiler, in genera. along with fortran, ada..)
18:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it ain't 'the software', either, it's a set of algos, they do not even take much paper to describe.
18:48 mircea_popescu yes. definition of "lisp machine" ALSO IS "item which runs trb"
18:48 asciilifeform ('nqb' for instance is about half of a zero-otherpeoplescode implementation of same.)
18:49 asciilifeform this is not much of a definition, it encompasses more or less any comp that is large enough
18:49 asciilifeform regardless of how built.
18:49 mircea_popescu no. it encompasses any iotem that is a computer.
18:49 mircea_popescu as opposed to items that are toys, or turds, or tonsils.
18:49 asciilifeform not one that has 64k of addr space, say.
18:51 asciilifeform at any rate this is a bizarre line of thought. trb (or rather, bitcoin, the existing network) has any kind of long term future ~strictly~ if it can be entirely separated from the cpp abortion.
18:52 asciilifeform the drooling idiot's 'i will Define By Implementation!' horror.
18:52 mircea_popescu i don't see how it'll seriously run on anything besides a c machine for the mid term.
18:52 asciilifeform not speaking of machines here, i dun have a 'large comp that ain't a c machine' to even test with.
18:52 asciilifeform but of the nature of the beast.
18:53 asciilifeform it has to cease to be a cpp proggy.
18:53 asciilifeform to become legitimately 'an algorithm', rather than 'this thing a particular moron shat out'
18:53 mircea_popescu not sure how that's related, but by all means.
18:53 asciilifeform it is related in that it makes 0 sense to include 'c' as part of its identity.
18:54 ben_vulpes yeah, what business has steel in car anyways
18:54 ben_vulpes make stirling engine of moon beams
18:54 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: titanium car would work quite well.
18:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not trb's identity was being defined. the c machine's was.
18:54 mircea_popescu as in made of tits ?
18:55 asciilifeform i have plenty of 'c machines' right here that cannot run trb (on account of 'too small addr space' or 'too slow clock', take your pick.)
18:55 asciilifeform it makes 0 sense to merge the categories.
18:56 asciilifeform i'ma bbl, gotta change gask mask canister; and pet has been 'come to bedroom!111' for 2hrs nao..
18:56 trinque you see where he keeps those canisters?
18:58 ben_vulpes doesn't sound like much of a surprise
18:59 mircea_popescu so how do they get refilled then ?
19:00 ben_vulpes sounds like $pet had an eye on the depletion meter
19:00 trinque mircea_popescu: clearly buttstrapping
19:10 ben_vulpes in other pki nyooz: http://gcaptain.com/us-announces-selective-availability-gps-devices/
19:14 trinque ben_vulpes: apr 1 ?
19:14 ben_vulpes aw fuck
19:15 ben_vulpes this is what i get for not shaking the rss reader unread on the second
19:15 ben_vulpes shaking the rss reader *out unread
19:15 mircea_popescu lol
19:21 ben_vulpes so damn believeable though
19:21 ben_vulpes fucking hate april fool's day
19:22 mircea_popescu why, great day to propose marriage to long term fiance.
19:22 ben_vulpes "hey babe, want to be my second wife?"
~ 43 minutes ~
20:05 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2017/04/03/who-needs-to-learn-languages-when-you-have-google-translate/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Who needs to learn languages when you have Google Translate?
~ 17 minutes ~
20:23 ben_vulpes http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261 << kinda looks like all one needs to bake CTxIn's is the hash of the transaction and output index, can someone spot check this for me?
↖
20:24 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636040 << all i knew about argentina i read in borges, casares and cortazar. i suspect if that argentina ever existed it's long dead
20:24 a111 Logged on 2017-04-02 17:30 asciilifeform: whaddayamean they don't sit around , retired and deposed colonels, deciding which fighting cock to sell, before starving
20:25 asciilifeform phf: it left a pretty good-looking corpse, phf
20:25 asciilifeform ( i will say, 0 of the things that drove mircea_popescu barking mad about the place, bother me at all. then again i was there for a week.. )
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20:27 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: what precisely are you thinking of attempting?
20:27 phf i know a few argentinians through yoga jet set crowd, and they are pleasant and fun company if nothing else. i prefer them to americans or germans most of the time
20:28 asciilifeform phf: yeah -- my mechanic is from buenos aires, and excellent conversation
20:29 asciilifeform a former neighbour -- also, and ditto
20:30 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: walking the blockchain in search of payments to a pubkey or pubkey hash, and indexing those in some manner (accounting for spends) such that they can be reconstituted into a transaction later
20:31 asciilifeform and i dun give a nanofuck that 'nightclubs there are small and crowded'. su circa 1975 had 0 nightclubs and i'd pick it over anywhere in known solar system, yes i would.
20:32 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it isn't hard to do, no; i have it (tentatively) working right here. but -- it ~is~ O(n).
20:33 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: q more along the lines of "what is least necessary to write to disk in order to be useful later"
20:34 phf asciilifeform: i think the main objection is that it's a country of millenials, lota pretense, not much doing
20:35 asciilifeform phf: that's whole planet. with possible exception of japan -- country of nursing home.
20:35 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: see my ada snippets from last week, pasted here
20:35 asciilifeform tx format was exhaustively described therein.
20:36 asciilifeform ( or your own parser, for that matter ! )
20:36 ben_vulpes well yes i'm familiar with how the bits are laid down, but i am less familiar with how trb handles it internally
20:37 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'surprise!' -- it doesn't
20:37 asciilifeform bdb does.
20:37 asciilifeform (and -- just barely.)
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
22:12 mircea_popescu !!key serje
22:12 deedbot Not registered.
22:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform argentina ? it's great for a week, and for a month. it's horrible for longer because the people are such subhuman shits.
22:15 mircea_popescu phf that argentina is essentially a scam. it never existed ; much like vhs america never existed.
22:16 mircea_popescu this isn't to say that pre-peron argentina wasn't a major world power, it was. but at no point was greenwich village what lifetime ohioan poet imagined it to be ; and similarily the hallucinated argentina of borges is a place exactly in the sense hemingway's manhood is a manhood or blair's civilisation is a civilisation.
22:18 shinohai Is it as shitty as Tijuana, where sewage spills go unnoticed for weeks? http://archive.is/nvFEL
22:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform su in 1975 did not have 0 nightclubs.
22:19 mircea_popescu leaving aside that if you got to meet beria it was all fun and games from there on, the "discotheque" was a thing even for plebs.
↖
22:20 mircea_popescu !~google "rio rita"
22:20 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Rio Rita | Mild mannered coffee shop by day, swanky lounge by night.: <http://www.riorita.net/>; Our Menu | Rio Rita: <http://www.riorita.net/our_menu/>; Rio Rita - Home | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/RioRitaAustin/>
22:21 mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1UzHkN5jBA <
22:22 mircea_popescu shinohai yes. their official beach where everyone goes is actually untreated sewage. they don't care.
22:23 shinohai "Hey this water makes our skin more brown, so we aren't pasty like the Chileans!"
22:24 mircea_popescu phf they pretend to be millennials. in point of fact are apes.
22:24 * phf has a sudden urge to get some vodka and zakuska "nu chto, bratci, odahnem, so vkusom! eeeeeeh!"
22:24 mircea_popescu heh.
22:24 mircea_popescu the notion that ~at any point~ teh russkis lacked a night life is borne out of a very strange life.
22:25 mircea_popescu more of a scene in fucking 42 leningrad than buenos aires ever saw.
22:25 mircea_popescu and this is BEFORE doing per capita regularization.
~ 57 minutes ~
23:22 asciilifeform in other lulz, 'XHCI (usb 3.0) in linux kernel is limited to 32 devices. It looks like a bug.'
23:23 asciilifeform (apparently no moar than 13 FUCKGOATS can be plugged into 1 usb host. because Reasons.)
23:31 mircea_popescu dunno why you'd want more than a coupla anyway. it's redundant to all fuck.
23:32 asciilifeform for the test beds, noshit
23:33 mircea_popescu > 13 ?
23:33 mircea_popescu oh, oh, for YOUR test beds. i see. lol
23:33 asciilifeform or, elsewhere, for, say , otp gen.
23:33 asciilifeform for which 100, say, is still modest number.
23:34 mircea_popescu eh, i don't expect worldwide usage of otp ticker exceeds 1mbps.
23:34 asciilifeform and the reason for this is this.
23:34 mircea_popescu now that's a point.
23:35 phf look at you connecting things like some kind of terrorist
23:35 mircea_popescu it wasn't hot enough to melt concrete phf.
23:38 asciilifeform i've given some serious thought to 'what would be highest bit rate honest rng possible with current tech'
23:38 asciilifeform it would probably be something like an sram but doped with a very small bit of beta emitter isotope
23:38 asciilifeform put the von neumann debiaser in each 'pixel', also.
23:40 asciilifeform dram, rather.
23:49 mircea_popescu i dunno it'd be a small bit of emitter.
23:49 mircea_popescu sram in cherenkov, while the cells last.
23:51 asciilifeform that's the tricky bit. also cherenkov has 0 to do with mechanism here, straight charge transfer.
23:52 mircea_popescu its presence means there's fast moving electrons.
23:52 asciilifeform they go ~0 distance ~into~ the solid.
23:52 asciilifeform if constructed properly.
23:52 mircea_popescu nah, fast ion - matter interaction is iffy. they can go a mile.
23:53 asciilifeform beta will go a mile like mircea_popescu will sit down in his chair and go through the floor and into china sea.
23:53 asciilifeform i.e. theoretically -- yes.
23:53 asciilifeform practically -- not.
23:53 mircea_popescu it's calculable!
23:54 asciilifeform aha, so is the chair fall..
23:54 mircea_popescu iirc it was 1-2 meters for .5 c electrons.
23:54 asciilifeform of air.
23:54 asciilifeform and cm.
23:54 mircea_popescu phase velocity of light in water is like .75, so if the water glows blue there's electrons there going > .75, meaning they'll go a few meters.
23:54 asciilifeform ( if it were 'm' : tesla's 'death ray' -- would work. )
23:55 asciilifeform but yes, the taper off to zero is at a few m.
23:55 asciilifeform upstack mircea_popescu had the right notion, though, it is difficult to build a decay rng that does not rot.
23:56 asciilifeform it is one of the two reasons we aren't selling one (the other being, that it is difficult to get even mild isotope, through post office)
23:56 mircea_popescu i imagine some of the best electronics for rng would be satellites. measure it straight in the solar panels!
23:56 asciilifeform now the other, moar exotic, approach, is that you can try to extract mass entropy from background gamma
23:56 asciilifeform (whereever you are -- there is background gamma)
23:56 asciilifeform *max entropy from
23:57 asciilifeform this means GHz counters, in the most obvious embodiment
23:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: solar panel is not a 'fast' device.
23:58 asciilifeform no good for particle event.
23:59 asciilifeform there is, however, a correct part for this : 'PIN diode.' i have an experimental setup with one. at some point we might offer a fg rng module based on it. but not yet.
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