Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-06-09 | 2016-06-11 → ↓
00:07 mod6 %r foobar 1
00:07 mod6 %r foobar 2
00:13 mod6 BingoBoingo hey, turns out that I won't have time to finish this tonight, and probably not until tomorrow night at very earliest.
00:14 BingoBoingo k
00:14 mod6 should I just send you what I've got?
00:14 BingoBoingo mod6: on trilema and the drinking record
00:14 BingoBoingo Submit it when it is finished
00:14 BingoBoingo No sooner
00:15 mod6 this kidna thing isn't forme.
00:25 BingoBoingo Well you've got to try everything at least once in life
~ 18 minutes ~
00:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sure, just gotta start peeling at a corner.
00:44 mircea_popescu mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com
00:48 BingoBoingo ^
~ 3 hours 30 minutes ~
04:18 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-09#1479673 <<< it does, however when i look at http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/UCI_tickets.html it seems to me #7 should be an antecedent of 3,4,5,6 but not the other way around
04:18 a111 Logged on 2016-06-09 23:04 mircea_popescu: does this make sense to anyone outside of yours truly ? asciilifeform ? davout ? jurov ? phf ? trinque ?
04:19 davout in other words i don't get how a worker could be made if the interface it should honor isn't defined beforehand
~ 2 hours 59 minutes ~
07:18 shinohai ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/QZA
07:18 gribble The operation succeeded.
~ 15 minutes ~
07:34 deedbot [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <jejb@kernel.org>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Odin.com>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Parallels.com>; James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/23B2173C2FF1A9C43007D526720EA2B9EC1CB4AC21503429ACFBA1DA022517B3
07:34 deedbot [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'FAKE: key generation test; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0A8E8A26D309CBC4A73BD31E3D6C6AE49AB443FA58E2A9A823BAA868189AB6A5
07:34 deedbot [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <info@kampfkunst-rt.de>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/876B66A5F4BB61D4B8BDCDB4F88B565D213C3A3D906FA1656E9E1F841AA2D0E9
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07:34 deedbot [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'James Bottomley <jejb@kernel.org>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Odin.com>; James Bottomley <jejb@linux.vnet.ibm.com>; James Bottomley <JBottomley@Parallels.com>; James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0C29F242AB444DCCCF5CB1DE389F7364C70C2BC6546581AD714F304746CDFD65
~ 51 minutes ~
08:25 jurov mod6: BingoBoingo: btcalpha is mike-c's thing
~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
09:45 mircea_popescu davout why ?
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09:45 mircea_popescu of course the interface is how the worker's written not the other way around.
09:46 asciilifeform <jejb@kernel.org>; << l0lllz. such is bitrot, we all knew, high-energy photons are attracted by the toe fungus of kernel devs; physics nobel at 11.
09:47 asciilifeform in other lulz:
09:48 asciilifeform 'Around 800 backbone fiber connections in the continental US (95+% of the backbone) have been tapped for data collection. Some of the telcos are aware of this, but are silently cooperating by not implementing point-to-point bulk traffic encryption. There is an extensive ghost network that connects these nodes, enabling traffic analysis and tracing in near-real time. As of recently, the passive taps are being converted to active filte
09:48 asciilifeform ring nodes, enabling traffic disruption and injection. This means that all the talk about legal instruments, NSLs etc. is immaterial, and that Tor traffic is practically vulnerable.'
09:50 mircea_popescu in other non-news, http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/rf/Image-lowres_Multimedia/IlSecoloXIXWEB/magazine/gossip/foto/2016/02/25/yvonne_splashnews-H160225193316.jpg
09:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480022 << apparently it's a... karateka.
09:50 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 11:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 3 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Kampfkunstzentrum Reutlingen <info@kampfkunst-rt.de>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/876B66A5F4BB61D4B8BDCDB4F88B565D213C3A3D906FA1656E9E1F841AA2D0E9
09:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform suddenly the value of point to point encrypted traffic at the box level becomes apparent ?
09:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: apparent eons ago
09:51 mircea_popescu the empire is cheap, because the empire is poor.
09:52 asciilifeform empire is made of cocksucking satrapies who wouldn't point-encrypt if martians gave them the gear for free.
09:52 mircea_popescu well, the martians are.
09:56 asciilifeform lel who's the leathery old chick
09:57 mircea_popescu "big star" of the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-25#1471914 tv school.
09:57 a111 Logged on 2016-05-25 20:46 mircea_popescu: the system's been around for decades ; i fucked a bunch in my day. recently they tried to close the thing down, arrested gals by the pail, but... from what i hear it didn't take.
09:58 asciilifeform and incidentally, 'the passive taps are being converted to active filtering nodes' >>> <<< http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-17#1345736 etc.
09:58 a111 Logged on 2015-12-17 23:25 ascii_field: meanwhile, 'socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1' between two boxes which i control
09:58 mircea_popescu in the same vein https://twitter.com/elena_morali note the "Per info e serate:Katia Rimmaudo +39 366 3542452 email: katia.rimmaudo@gmail.com" part.
09:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha.
09:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-17#1467633 << see also.
09:59 a111 Logged on 2016-05-17 14:54 asciilifeform: the 'let's talk plaintext to randos' thing was great while it lasted.
~ 20 minutes ~
10:19 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> mod6 aww, you didn't choke on the submit part did you ? just gpg --encrypt --armor -r bingo and put the text into dpaste or wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com << ah, no. my writing isn't good. so lol, it's difficult for me.
10:20 mod6 the gpg part isn't a prob or whatever.
10:20 mircea_popescu a
10:21 mod6 speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst.
↖ ↖
10:22 mod6 so im gonna dig into that a bit today, and see what needs to change if anything -- the structure shouldn't change too much, just a lot of labeling to make it more .... intuitive.
10:32 deedbot [Trilema] Come see babies having sex - http://trilema.com/2016/come-see-babies-having-sex/
10:37 asciilifeform in other lulz, https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/06/visual-cpp-telemetry
10:38 asciilifeform ^ a new, bolder microshit infects binaries at build time
10:39 Framedragger alf is like a good decent-link-filter-and-repost bot #b-a -> #trilema
10:39 mircea_popescu lol
10:39 mircea_popescu hey, apparently it works.
10:40 asciilifeform Framedragger: somebody gotta do the salvage work.
10:40 Framedragger can't complain. *muh links get st0len*
10:41 Framedragger it's just logging timestamps to windows event logger it seems. but still bold and shitty
10:41 mircea_popescu turns out this "telemetry" is an utter misnomer, "etw" is just a stack trace a la windows ?
10:41 asciilifeform anything in the binary you didn't put there == infection.
10:41 mircea_popescu but the thing itself is... a stack trace. right ?
10:41 asciilifeform like the 'unique id' crapolade microshit stuff into everything from vs exe to word docs.
10:42 Framedragger mircea_popescu: etw seems to be a more generic framework than that, but can't be bothered to look too deeply. something like that anyway
10:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it calls an undocumented api thing that can do whatever the fuck microshit wants it to do on next update.
10:42 mircea_popescu "users should add notelemetry.obj to their linker command line" lol k.
10:42 Framedragger i don't think it's a complete stack trace. it's just timestamps?
10:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform admitting for a moment windows can actually do things.
10:43 mircea_popescu Framedragger carroll dude is blathering about how it works if "customer also supplies symbol info"
10:43 mircea_popescu so yeah i guess half of one.
10:43 mircea_popescu since when are timestamps the way to approach this btw ?
10:43 Framedragger ah, right, i see why you'd think that. yeah so something of the kind, partially. ugh M$
10:43 asciilifeform the way it works,
10:43 asciilifeform is that it is a placeholder.
10:44 asciilifeform say next year it will write not only timestamp but exe hash to log.
10:44 mircea_popescu Framedragger right ? kinda how they do shit.
10:44 Framedragger welll, NT kernel is a piece of engineering, whatever your feelings for M$
10:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no because itwillbeoff.jpg
10:44 asciilifeform year after that, it uploads this log on daily basis (along with the keystroke logs we already know to exist starting in win8) to microshit. etc.
10:44 Framedragger but yeah of course fuck them, can't argue with that
10:44 asciilifeform and ahahaha itwillbeoff.jpg yeahlol.
10:44 mircea_popescu you're like from the 90s or something!
10:45 mircea_popescu there's been 25 years of "pubic opinion" and "internet community" PROGRESS since then!
10:45 asciilifeform quite.
10:45 Framedragger muh idol is bill gatez he the great hack3r
10:45 Framedragger true, true
10:45 mircea_popescu what rock have you been living under! teh jwz chorus won all the wars, what.
10:46 Framedragger i do remember investigating how a few of them ring 0 windows rootkits work, thereby sort of delving into NT internals... it's a world unto itself. and it's full of objects!!! ah, childhood :D
10:46 Framedragger iirc they have their own solution for pipes, which does work
10:47 mircea_popescu in other lulz, http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2426472/details.htm
10:47 mircea_popescu " http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2426472/details.htm
10:47 mircea_popescu <mirceayyy> I'm Lilly. I am a very liberal SJW activist who is also into very kinky sex. I am on here to finally to what I know in my heart is right and fair and find an African American person whom wants to own a white slave. I am very obedient, can cook, clean, and do whatever else would be required of me."
10:47 Framedragger but there's also this [one sec]
10:47 Framedragger ^ wow, fetishisation of social something much
10:48 Framedragger THIS https://mollyrocket.com/casey/stream_0029.html -- example of internal windows APIs... it's full of dragons. spoiler alert: vomit
10:49 asciilifeform Framedragger: i have much of this rubbish in hardcopy here.
10:49 asciilifeform for years.
10:49 Framedragger (it's a long post but a nice read for one of them rainy days)
10:49 mircea_popescu who knows, maybe black dudes looking for a derpy slavegirl in audience.
10:49 asciilifeform ;;seen thestringpuller
10:49 gribble thestringpuller was last seen in #trilema 10 weeks, 1 day, 21 hours, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <thestringpuller> phf: turning the logs into genius.com?
10:49 Framedragger asciilifeform: undocumented windows NT features or sth like that? there was a book...
10:49 asciilifeform Framedragger: more than one
10:50 mod6 boy. i think that the logic might be correct in there -- but boy oh boy is "ANTECEDENT(s)" a bad label.
10:50 Framedragger asciilifeform: i'm sure you've had good fun with them :)
10:50 mod6 should read "ANTECEDENT OF" if anything
10:50 mod6 does anyone agree with that assessment?
10:50 asciilifeform Framedragger: not so much fun, but some profit.
10:51 Framedragger fair enough
10:52 * Framedragger remembers writing a shitty "back-connect" backdoor, coupling it with keylogger and a shitty "Hacker Defender" (sic) rootkit which hides the former two, and installing the bundle onto school PCs running the latest AV...
10:52 mod6 eh, maybe not.
10:54 mircea_popescu mod6 i've been thinking about it since yest.
10:54 mod6 so... all of these obnoxious mental gymnastics are because i didn't want to use the term "blocker"
10:54 mod6 which it really should read
10:54 mod6 i.e.
10:54 mod6 %p UCI 2
10:54 tb0t Project: UCI, ID: 2, Type: F, Subject: #trilema standard bot, Antecedents: , Notes: Should be capable of maintaining connection to channel ; interfacing with deedbot ; interfacing with Lordship/voiced users.
10:54 mircea_popescu but not exactly see, because for instance in uti oops i mean uci thing : 4 doesn't block 7 if 3 is present say.
10:55 mod6 err
10:55 mod6 %p UCI 8
10:55 tb0t Project: UCI, ID: 8, Type: F, Subject: Create UCI supervisor, Antecedents: 2,7, Notes: Interacts with UCI worker through interface ; interacts with peers through #trilema standard bot. Maintains list of prices for exposed abilities and Bitcoin address for payments ; list of trusted peers for accepting orders and verifying Bitcoin payments ; administrative policies as appropriate. Directs worker to execute accepted commands,
10:55 mod6 2 & 7 are blockers to the completion of 8
10:55 mircea_popescu yes, but look at 7
10:55 mircea_popescu %p UCI 7
10:55 tb0t Project: UCI, ID: 7, Type: I, Subject: Research and design UCI/worker interface., Antecedents: 3,4,5,6, Notes: UCI element should expose significant portions of native ability (at a very minimum networking ; math processing - CPU and VidCard ; storage - RAM and HDD) through an unified, lightweight interface. Feature load less important than simplicity.
10:55 mircea_popescu arguably ANY ONE of 3, 4, 5, 6 is sufficient.
10:56 mircea_popescu so calling them antecedents is actually correct : they're the earlier pieces.
10:56 mod6 ok! so you're looking at it the same way i was then -- and I thought this yesterday.
10:56 mod6 which is why I think your graph for UCI is correct.
10:56 mircea_popescu my only thing was with the arrows, because currently they go against the flow of entropy.
10:56 mod6 just not sure if anyone else will see it that way. but i guess that doesn't quite matter either.
10:56 mircea_popescu of course, they go with the logic flow, i suppose.
10:58 mod6 yeah, i see how that, especially in this case as opposed to V does warp the mind a bit.
10:59 mod6 because goal with this is not just to flow in to one direction, the goal is to recurse and solve from the leaves to root.
10:59 mod6 hmm. ok. i gotta run here for a bit. will think on it a bit more. thanks!
11:00 mircea_popescu basically. i mean, that's the point right ? for people to pick up tickets and push through
11:00 mod6 yeah.
~ 16 minutes ~
11:16 deedbot [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] It’s never too soon for an Uninterruptible Power Supply. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/06/10/its-never-too-soon-for-an-uninterruptible-power-supply/
11:22 asciilifeform l0l he found a floor-standing one
11:22 asciilifeform (my rack-mount thing also, in fact, stands on floor. in one of those '90s-era 'full tower pedestals' with the ratcheting clamp)
11:24 deedbot [Qntra] WOTless Bitcoin n00b Scammed For Millions Of Fiat Tokens - http://qntra.net/2016/06/wotless-bitcoin-n00b-scammed-for-millions-of-fiat-tokens/
11:32 Framedragger lol just had a meeting with boss: he wants to create a general valuation (as in IP valuation) framework for cryptocurrencies
11:33 Framedragger just explained what public ledger is
11:33 Framedragger gonna be interesting
11:35 trinque what
11:35 trinque Framedragger: aside from the market cap of the thing?
11:36 trinque sounds like he read an article on blockchain teckmology
11:37 Framedragger yes, aside from that
11:37 Framedragger one of potential clients: scotcoin (as in chief operators - haven't looked yet if that even makes sense)
11:38 Framedragger yeah it's probably bull; interesting to think in terms of IP though, whether there's a valuation methodology possible
11:45 Framedragger i detest these glossy landing page designs. then again, maybe a stability point has been reached on the web, in the sense of content-less websites now employing a content-less form
11:47 Framedragger > look for EBITDA
11:47 Framedragger > find emoji javascript and jquery scroll animation
11:53 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480051 <<< seems intuitive enough to me
11:53 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 14:21 mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst.
11:55 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480025 <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables
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11:55 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 13:45 mircea_popescu: davout why ?
12:03 trinque asciilifeform: maybe you can find the thread for Framedragger regarding whether certain things (bitcoin, V) can have "valuation"
12:03 trinque I've been searching, haven't found
12:04 asciilifeform trinque: i have nfi what is meant
12:04 asciilifeform $s pay for sunlight
12:04 a111 3 results for "pay for sunlight", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pay%20for%20sunlight
12:04 asciilifeform ^ this ?
12:05 trinque yeah that one
12:08 asciilifeform meanwhile, in heathendom, https://bitbet.us/bet/1276/bitcoin-block-larger-than-1mb-to-be-mined
12:08 asciilifeform ^ how the fuck does this even make sense as written ?
12:08 asciilifeform let's start with 'If a bitcoin block strictly larger than 1000000 bytes (1 MB) gets mined on the main chain and subsequently receives more than 100 confirmations before December 31st 2016 at midnight GMT included, this bet resolves as "Yes".'
12:09 asciilifeform how does a gavinblock - definitionally - sit on 'main chain' ?
12:09 asciilifeform even in principle.
12:09 asciilifeform can someone tell me ?
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12:09 asciilifeform 'Should a block strictly larger than 1Mb get mined, betting will close immediately and all bets received after the event (where "received" means "bet transaction gets one confirmation on the bitcoin network") will be refunded, minus BitBet's fee.' << aaaaand there went mircea_popescu's 'anti-chiseling' thing. gone, just like that.
12:15 mircea_popescu Framedragger ahahahaha oookay.
12:16 mircea_popescu ftr : not only it's impossible to have an "ip valuation of bitcoin", but moreover the bitcoin valuation of ip returns 0.
12:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480158 << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ?
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12:19 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 15:55 davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480025 <<< because the alternative is accepting arbitrary executables
12:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480172 << i'll pass, let whoever's getting paid for this handle it.
12:21 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 16:09 asciilifeform: can someone tell me ?
12:21 Framedragger mircea_popescu: yeah i mean.. yeah. it's almost as if: if bitcoin valuation of ip returns > 0, then bitcoin failed in terms of one of its design principles, or something
12:22 Framedragger i dunno. gonna be interesting. will update if any good comes out of it (or bad..)
12:24 mircea_popescu alternatively you could explain to your boss that a) he's not terribly informed, and if he's interested in this sort of thing b) really should make gpg id and show up here with his q's.
12:24 mircea_popescu which
12:24 mircea_popescu will also have the great benefit of c) clip his wings a shade.
12:27 ben_vulpes "intellectual property"?
12:27 mircea_popescu i presume.
12:28 ben_vulpes yeah, that's not terrifically well thought-out.
12:28 ben_vulpes "what is the value of owning source code for a token system that everyone else must have a copy of in order to play?"
12:28 ben_vulpes p much just the value of the tokens neh
12:29 ben_vulpes i doubt a binary-only 'bitcoinalike' would fly even were it wot-o-genic
12:29 mircea_popescu reading the specs of that ds1500b-rm opti-ups thing... output voltage regulation +/- 2% ?! srsly, that noisy ?
12:30 ben_vulpes heh american "engineering rounding error"
12:30 mircea_popescu but if it cycles from -4 to +4 V it's noisier than grid power.
12:31 ben_vulpes no idea
12:32 ben_vulpes 'power supply' to me means i dial a voltage and it holds it to a hundredth of a volt.
12:32 ben_vulpes (within operating envelope)
12:33 mircea_popescu neway, i was thinking more of something a la http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=AKSA-APD%252dAT100-Generator-%28100kW%29
12:33 mircea_popescu (electronics not pictured)
12:34 mircea_popescu (doesn't have to come with the trailer, of course. you'll need a battery rack about the same size and a serious converter, ie, 100kW as opposed to 1050kW)
12:35 ben_vulpes the ups is just supposed to be a bridge to the gennie.
12:36 ben_vulpes either you can depend on the mains or you can't. and they're not getting better in NA.
12:37 mircea_popescu yeah but you want the bridge to be wide enough. 1kw is not practically useful - inductive charge for an average ac unit for instance easily beats 5kw
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12:37 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480176 <<< how could one build a basic calculator proggy without at least the rough interface specification of: "arithmetic expression goes in, scalar result comes out"?
12:37 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 16:19 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480158 << this makes no sense. who starts building from the interface ?
12:37 ben_vulpes either provision for your "megawatt standard lifestyle" or...scramble around unplugging things to extend the tiny window before your node goes offline completely.
12:37 ben_vulpes what is really at issue here is one's connectivity to the bitcoin network. so yes, power. also, shortwave.
12:37 mircea_popescu davout because he's not supposed to do emulation on the worker. if your kernel runs javascript, you expose reals. if your kernel runs balanced ternary, you exposed balanced ternary.
12:38 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes note that there's a lot of space between 100kw and 1mw.
12:38 davout mircea_popescu: so basically no sandboxing?
12:39 mircea_popescu davout not at worker level. you do that at administrative level.
12:39 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: well megawatt lifestyle in survival mode
12:39 davout aha, so in other words tmsr is making its own docker
12:40 ben_vulpes davout: triggered
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12:40 mircea_popescu http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Gillette-SPS%252d120-Home-Standby-Generator-%2812kW%29 << ftr, very reasonable 12kw units available. 4k what's that, half a weekend trip.
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12:40 davout or own aws
12:40 mircea_popescu davout own docker/aws/tor/silk road/nsa/cloudflare/dns/you name it.
12:40 davout ben_vulpes: who/what triggered who/what?
12:40 ben_vulpes > tmsr is making its own docker
12:40 ben_vulpes triggered me
12:41 mircea_popescu he's affecting that he can't hear docker, so we don't realise he sleeps with a stuffed bear with a penis that reads docker
12:41 davout ben_vulpes: one could also say tmsr is reinventing microservices
12:41 davout :D
12:41 ben_vulpes so triggered
12:41 mircea_popescu loller.
12:41 davout as we say: "je comprends vite mais il faut parfois m'expliquer longtemps"
12:41 mircea_popescu lol.
12:42 mircea_popescu (re above link : a buried gpl tank and a gpl/lp/ng generator possibly much better solution than gasoline powered. unless you actually intend to build a gasoline tank, which is a permit nightmare usually.)
12:44 ben_vulpes 88 ft^3/hr?
12:45 mircea_popescu gillette also makes up to iirc 1mw units. but really, from both a redundancy and efficiency pov it's better to buy multiple smaller ones.
12:45 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes hm ?
12:45 ben_vulpes estimating 500 gal tank capacity
12:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu would be quite surprised what the % accuracy on sine coming out of mechanical genset is.
12:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform just about 2%.
12:47 asciilifeform if no load.
12:48 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes well... they run ~50% efficiency, so you can get consumption from power rating pretty much. so you should expect about 1galon/hour drawn for every ~16kW of installed power. roughly speaking.
12:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has a petrol engine that does 50%!??
12:48 ben_vulpes oh that's an interesting approach
12:48 asciilifeform because that would be a historic moment
12:48 ben_vulpes i was just looking at fuel consumption as an upper bound
12:49 asciilifeform (20-30 is typical)
12:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform eh it's not the 70s anymore!
12:49 asciilifeform actually it is.
12:49 mircea_popescu hater.
12:49 asciilifeform lel
12:50 asciilifeform anyway petrol generator is 'sexy', vrooom, vroom, but actual practice is that brown-outs, spikes, <30sec blackouts, are the real itch re computer user.
12:51 asciilifeform and for that petrol is quite irrelevant, you want doubleconverting ups with ample spare capacity and fresh battery.
12:51 mircea_popescu eh, you want the whole thing. converter ; battery and generator.
12:51 mircea_popescu no point in solving half-problems, especially when the shit's not even expensive.
12:52 asciilifeform thing is, even cheap generator, that has to be connected with extension cord and rolls on wheels out of garage, suffices if you have good doubleconverting ups
12:52 asciilifeform it makes the quality of the ~input~ ac irrelevant.
12:52 asciilifeform and gives you time to revv up the motor.
12:52 asciilifeform so long as we're speaking of a house, rather than datacentre or factory
12:52 mircea_popescu but to resolve your doubts asciilifeform : http://bestratedgenerators.com/most-fuel-efficient-portable-generator/ .7kW * 14 hrs = just about 10kw to the gallon. which is ok considering the tiny size.
12:52 mircea_popescu sane sized ones get better mileage.
12:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you recall at no point "just a gas generator" was contemplated. that + battery bank + electronics = win.
12:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the pictured gensets are what most folks have where i live.
12:53 mircea_popescu aha.
12:53 asciilifeform motorcycle engine.
12:54 mircea_popescu anyway, off top of head 400 kw generator eats ~28.5 gal/hr full load and ~15 half load ; 250 kw eats 18 and about 10. it degrades from there.
12:55 asciilifeform popular generator for folks with money, in usa, is stationary thing that runs of city gas when available and switches to diesel if not.
12:55 mircea_popescu these, it should be pointed out, are not THAT expensive. which is the important item here.
12:56 mircea_popescu if you're about to drop 1mn on a piece of property, the notion that you wouldn't drop a few tens of k's on actually having power for it is outright idiotic.
12:56 asciilifeform the installation is about half of the cost.
12:56 asciilifeform need Official electricians to sign off, etc.
12:56 asciilifeform and most large commercial buildings have these, although, strangely, not connected to the tenants' wiring ! - only lights and lifts.
12:56 asciilifeform mandated by some obscure law.
12:56 asciilifeform (where i live, anyway)
12:57 mircea_popescu yawell.
12:58 asciilifeform the most comical situation was of course in usgland. i was working at an army base, and there were the most titanically impressive generators i've ever seen, each easily the size of a train car, diesel cisterns two stories high, etc. BUT we still lost power in the lab. because somehow it wasn't connected to it.
12:58 asciilifeform and ~nothing else was.
12:58 mircea_popescu lmao.
12:59 mircea_popescu by the time you're talking traincar sized gensets, you're prolly better off building a small nuclear plant anyway.
12:59 mircea_popescu strangely enough, small nuclear plants are actually a lot safer than the large ones also.
12:59 asciilifeform many years ago, i was working in uni. of md., in the same building as one of the 'root dns' boxes. we had no fewer than 4 stationary diesels, of various makes. they worked.
13:00 asciilifeform and tested weekly.
13:00 asciilifeform loud.
13:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'pebble reactor'
13:00 asciilifeform iirc it is now all the rage in jp.
13:00 asciilifeform can get office bldg. sized unit.
13:00 mircea_popescu myeah.
13:00 asciilifeform keep in the cellar.
13:00 asciilifeform i have nfi if these were actually sold or only eternally threatened to market.
13:01 mircea_popescu usually the traincar-boxed gensets are 1500-2000-2500 kw sorta deals.
13:05 shinohai http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/10/gawker-media-files-for-ch-11-bankruptcy-protection.html <<< bwhahaha Gawker filers for Bankruptcy
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13:05 mircea_popescu lol now that defo should be on qntra.
13:05 mircea_popescu preferably with a picture of a young man pissing on a grave.
13:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform zee germanz had a small unit built at some point. then they tore it down because usg lobby for fucking them over ; ended up paying ~half a dollar per kW produced in "dismantling" costs.
13:06 ben_vulpes ahaha so thiel pulled it off?
13:06 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes this is an ancient story.
13:07 mircea_popescu $google julich arbeitsgemeinschaft versuchsreaktor
13:07 ben_vulpes the bankrupting part is new to me
13:07 deedbot https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_(J%C3%BClich) << AVR (Jülich) – Wikipedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_reactor << AVR reactor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | http://www.ewn-gmbh.de/index.php?id=3 << bei der AVR GmbH!
13:07 mircea_popescu oh oh oh.
13:07 mircea_popescu my bad :p
13:07 ben_vulpes yes the vendetta is old
13:07 ben_vulpes but the kill -- fresh
13:07 mircea_popescu word.
13:08 asciilifeform not like the gawktrons will vanish.
13:08 asciilifeform they will be bought and operated.
13:08 asciilifeform a la reddit.
13:08 ben_vulpes by even dumber and poorer 'j-skool' grads
13:08 ben_vulpes and others with aspirations of relevance and no historical view
13:09 mircea_popescu well, yeah, but very progressive and looking for a black man to cook for.
13:09 ben_vulpes one in a fucking million, maybe.
13:09 shinohai paging BingoBoingo ... he has to write this one.
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13:09 mircea_popescu good enough :D
13:10 ben_vulpes the rest have never had the autonomy over any scope to know how much better life is under a good master.
13:10 ben_vulpes show up and start in with the unfounded ideas.
13:10 ben_vulpes then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in"
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13:10 mircea_popescu is this the voice of bitter experience ?
13:11 ben_vulpes "you better tell me you have the shits, because that excuse is completely unacceptable."
13:11 mircea_popescu ;;ud the shits
13:11 gribble Error: We broke The Google!
13:11 mircea_popescu hm
13:11 mircea_popescu allow me to recommend perfectly definitive solution for the shits :
13:11 mircea_popescu $google eridiarom
13:11 ben_vulpes generic 'i dun wanna work' excuse.
13:11 deedbot https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=14234 << EFFICACY OF PHYTOTHERAPEUTICAL PRODUCTS (ERIDIAROM ... | http://enzimatic.ro/Eridiarom%20Tratament%20Eficient%20%C3%8En%20prevenirea%20%C8%99i%20Tratarea%20diareelor%20neonatale%20(a%20nou-n%C4%83scu%C8%9Bilor)%20nespecifice%20%C8%99i%20a%20diareelor%20specifice << Eridiarom Tratament Eficient În prevenirea și Tratarea diareelor | http://www.romedic.ro/eridiarom-50-cps-tract-diges
13:12 mircea_popescu all natural. the only diarrhea that survives it is death.
13:12 ben_vulpes bitter?
13:12 mircea_popescu nope. tastes like blueberries, vaguely. and non-constipating either.
13:13 ben_vulpes i hope i don't taste like blueberries, and further how would you know?!
13:13 mircea_popescu i thought you were asking IF THE CURE IS BITTER!
13:13 ben_vulpes :D
13:14 mircea_popescu this is like trolling.
13:14 ben_vulpes not my fault you can't remember what you said two minutes ago
13:14 mircea_popescu i can ; but the rule is that question is fit to the closest non-contradicting context.
13:15 mircea_popescu it is your job to review the timeflow and add sufficient context so that your question is not fitted to later items under discussion than what you mean!
13:15 ben_vulpes yeah cuz saliency dun bear or something
13:15 mircea_popescu it's not "best fit", it's "first non-contradicted".
13:15 ben_vulpes why would i give a shit about the bitterness of a cure for a made up ailment i ask you
13:16 mircea_popescu but see, the parser should never consider this question. because if it does, it narrows unduly the space of possible expression.
13:16 mircea_popescu and we'll end up reddit-communicating, ie, each his own.
13:18 ben_vulpes have a pineapple
13:18 ben_vulpes and a us college grad
13:19 ben_vulpes i can't be arsed to shuck either of their inedible exteriors.
13:28 mircea_popescu in other google lulz : https://archive.is/sb3iJ wherein 4th result is "rockettcafe.com/iyob4x/mai-tipe-ros.html". now rockettcafe.com is some derpy texas eatery (which got scammed by the webtard community of a decade ago into "needing" a website), but the precise url google recommends actually does X-Powered-By: PHP/5.3.29 302 Location: coolin.in/for/77?d=rockettcafe.com
13:31 mircea_popescu supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco ; of which gross the author makes ~40%.
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13:31 mircea_popescu somehow i doubt it comes to anything, but whadda i know.
13:37 mircea_popescu brunsfieldrealestate.com/iyob4x/mai-tipe-ros.html << amusingly, same dir too.
13:39 mircea_popescu leconfortinnhotels.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/iyob4x/xxx-photo-of-small-girl-hd.html << and now we know what's being sold, also. child porn! google reports no less than 106k hits!
13:40 mircea_popescu (server, of course, from microsoft)
13:42 mircea_popescu moar lulz http://vizhanyo.com/iyob4x/object.php.suspected
13:43 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480338 << pestilential in ru
13:43 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:31 mircea_popescu: supposedly all this pile of effort is getting paid through derps putting in their mobile # and then getting charged by telco ; of which gross the author makes ~40%.
13:43 mircea_popescu in argentina, telcos just steal the prepaid credit. no need for all this.
13:43 asciilifeform prepaid ?
13:44 mircea_popescu well yeah.
13:44 asciilifeform as in 'call card' ?
13:44 asciilifeform wouldn't that put a small upper bound on the loot ?
13:44 mircea_popescu as in "i'm not making contracts with you get lost"
13:44 mircea_popescu it does yeah.
13:44 mircea_popescu argentines are like this. very very dumb.
13:45 asciilifeform prepaid mobiles exist in usa, extortionate cost.
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13:45 asciilifeform (per-minute)
13:45 mircea_popescu yeah. ustards are like ~that~. just as dumb.
13:46 asciilifeform at one point they were 'anonymous' but then merchants were usgized into collecting names, addressed; today they are largely used by lumpens who can't get normal phone (as it requires credit history)
13:46 asciilifeform *addresses
13:46 mircea_popescu here they work as indended, ie anonymously.
13:47 asciilifeform no chinese 'want sim card - show passport' yet ?
13:47 mircea_popescu nope.
13:47 asciilifeform neat.
13:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480309 << ben_vulpes this is a quote ?
13:50 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:10 ben_vulpes: then "omg tensions were so high yesterday i don't want to come in"
13:50 asciilifeform someone said this ?
13:51 mod6 <+davout> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480051 <<< seems intuitive enough to me << ah ok thanks davout
13:51 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 14:21 mod6: speaking of which, i think I'm going to need to rework this whole antecedent thing. while building it, it seemed to make sense to me, but now, looking at it through a different set of eyes, it seems unintuitive at best, out right backwards at worst.
13:51 shinohai http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/appeals-court-rules-cops-can-legally-search-a-seized-credit-card-with-no-warrant/ <<< guess Ill have to print a retraction in Qntra
13:53 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/8ad7455c-8a8f-4269-a1df-0dbb37b7c224 << moar lulz
13:53 asciilifeform 'When any U.S. telecommunications company wishes to install a physical fiber optic connection, and that connection cross into or out of the national borders of the United States, the company which terminates the fiber, in what is called a "landing" is required under federal law to obtain an "International Landing" license, and this is done via the Federal Communications Commission, and there is ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS, an unclassified
13:53 asciilifeform version of the license and then a classified addendum to the agreement. The company who seek the license will be assigned a classified compartments code name that will be "Top Secret/ESI" with the ESI standing for "Extremely Sensitive Information" as disclosure could directly lead to economic devastation to the company, and their involvement must be kept secret.'
13:53 shinohai I wonder if that applies equally to qr codes
13:58 asciilifeform 'At Tuckerton, Lynn, and other sites, since just after 9/11/2001 if you place a call from Washington, DC to Boston, the call does not actually get sent over underground cables inside the United States, but rather the call gets injected into an international landing site, and routed to Great Britain, and then sent back to the same U.S. Landing location, essentially being a loopback in the UK. Because the loopback caused the signal to
13:58 asciilifeform be transmitted over a U.S. border, then legally the NSA/CIA/SCS will claim that it then falls into an international transmission and that they are justified in performing an intercept, even though it is a domestic call, but because it was shot out of the United States over an international loopback. Another wrinkle is because this loopback to the UK, the British government will also intercept it at the loopback point, so that the cal
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13:58 asciilifeform l gets shared by two independent espionage entities.'
13:58 asciilifeform ^ old nyooz to connoisseurs, but lulzy.
13:58 mircea_popescu aha.
13:59 asciilifeform moar lulzily, where is the supposed 'economic devastation'.
14:00 asciilifeform now that even pigeons in the park know that 100% of telcos participate.
14:00 mircea_popescu the obvious pill being, of course, point to point encryption via uci on top of end to end encryption via gossipd.
14:01 asciilifeform the usg circus tricks weren't cheap, and were very clearly carried out with the assumption that no one would ever discover working crypto.
14:01 asciilifeform can't see any other model for this.
14:02 mircea_popescu you keep re-injecting this "usg has a head" thing.
14:02 mircea_popescu it's dogvomit, not a vole. it has no head.
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14:02 mircea_popescu grew whicever way the dead tree was.
14:03 asciilifeform difficult to escape this conclusion.
14:07 asciilifeform incidentally...
14:07 asciilifeform ;;calc 10**12 / ((9600 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24)
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14:07 gribble 9645.0617284
14:08 asciilifeform CONTIGUOUS DAYS at 9600 baud, on 1TB disk of otp.
14:08 asciilifeform that's 26 motherfucking years.
14:08 asciilifeform of shell time.
14:09 asciilifeform 1TB can fit under the skin of little finger, no need to even open arse.
14:10 asciilifeform i can't be the only one who ever did this bit of arithmetic.
14:14 asciilifeform ;;calc 10**12 / ((115200 / 8) * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365)
14:14 gribble 2.20206888776
14:14 asciilifeform years of 115.2kBaud, plenty adequate to do ~whatever.
14:14 asciilifeform (play Doom over ipx!1111111)
14:14 asciilifeform video chat. etc.
14:15 asciilifeform 9600 is MOAR than what your telco gives you for voice chan.
14:16 * shinohai is now nostalgic for warez
14:16 asciilifeform and can anyone suggest good reason why a p2p link between two permanent stations ought to be anything other than otp ?
14:20 trinque asciilifeform: not really. if you wanted to move more data, could exchange pubkeys over the otp link.
14:22 * trinque imagines pad-courier as a nice gig for the wandering type
14:33 asciilifeform trinque: do you understand the point of otp ?
14:34 asciilifeform the point is to NOT USE ANYTHING ELSE
14:34 asciilifeform any ~even potentially breakable~ algo.
14:34 asciilifeform at all.
14:36 asciilifeform y'know, otp, where a bit of ciphertext conveys 0 BITS OF INFO re corresponding (or any other) bit of plaintext.
14:37 trinque yeah I do understand
14:37 trinque and I also move data bigger than 1tb in a given week
14:37 asciilifeform move with courier.
14:38 asciilifeform srsly 'taanstaafl.' (tm) (r) (heinlein)
14:39 trinque what does me moving a cramer shoup key over an otp link reveal about the otp link
14:39 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-06#1398532 << see mega-thread.
14:39 a111 Logged on 2016-02-06 20:47 mircea_popescu: your bias-less rng shits out n/2 ones. they go against a message containing 3/4n ones. they will flip n/2 items in the message, 3/4 of which being 1s and 1/4 being 0s. you thus end up with 3/8 old ones + 1/8 ex-zeroes for a grand total of exactly 1/2 whoa.
14:39 trinque obviously using the cramer shoup link is higher risk than the otp one
14:39 asciilifeform trinque: the answer is: ~something~
14:39 asciilifeform trivially provable.
14:39 trinque and perhaps I'm alright with that for certain things, not okay with that on others
14:39 asciilifeform and it isn't 'reveals re otp link'
14:40 asciilifeform it is that using ANY system other than otp moves some nonzero qty of info re plaintext with the ciphertext.
14:40 asciilifeform elementary proof (shannon)
14:40 asciilifeform essentially the Big Dirty Secret re crypto is that NO ONE HAS YET proven that non-otp cryptography ~actually exists~
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14:41 asciilifeform in the sense of a permanent thing that does what it says on the box
14:41 asciilifeform quite arguably the entire 20th century circus re symmetric crypto (and possible every other kind) has been an elaborate - possibly engineered - distraction from this fact.
14:42 asciilifeform consider the lengths that were gone to, in order to keep folks using rotors after vernam (otp) was a thing.
14:42 trinque it could be. if so it would seem to rule out bitcoin entirely in present form
14:43 trinque deedbot.org uptime 77 days, RX bytes:129700966372 (120.7 GiB) TX bytes:609770449367 (567.8 GiB)
14:43 asciilifeform trinque: bitcoin is arguable best - to date - cryptological canary.
14:43 asciilifeform *arguably
14:43 asciilifeform but canaries do not come with guarantees of timely death.
14:45 asciilifeform and yes, bitcoin (in the most general case) relies on there being such a thing as strong asymmetric crypto.
14:45 asciilifeform wot, incidentally, and contrary to popular belief - doesn't!! could, in principle, use lamport signatures.
14:46 asciilifeform which merely require strong hash, to exist.
14:46 asciilifeform (but are unwieldy.)
14:47 asciilifeform if not for this, you're stuck with in-person wotting and broken glass rods or other physical mechanisms of unforgeability.
14:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the problems with otp aren't exactly bandwidth like that.
14:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in the use case contemplated, there ARE no problems.
14:47 asciilifeform can just as easily keep 1TB on a single chip die secret as 4096 bits.
14:48 asciilifeform mechanism weighs the same, has same physical shape.
14:48 asciilifeform costs slightly more.
14:48 asciilifeform thread was re point to point link between people who know one another.
14:48 mircea_popescu even so. how do you communicate the pads ?
14:49 asciilifeform by letting the two units fuck.
14:49 mircea_popescu this definition of "know one another" is very deep. there isn't 1tb of "knowledge" in your average marital relationship.
14:49 asciilifeform 1 fuck per 26 years.
14:49 asciilifeform (9600 baud.)
14:51 mircea_popescu now, i can mentally construct a case for using this system ; with physically plugged units etc. you refer to it but don't actually discuss it.
14:51 asciilifeform ;;calc 10**12 / ((1024*1024*100) * 60 * 60)
14:51 gribble 2.64909532335
14:51 mircea_popescu should be obvious that, eg, this scheme doesn't work for a phone. what, i keep plugging extensions function of who's calling ?
14:51 asciilifeform fill time, in hours, using 100MB/s rng.
14:51 asciilifeform it works for POINT TO POINT phone. modem. whichever.
14:51 asciilifeform as in, hose with two ends.
14:52 mircea_popescu it'll be pretty expensive.
14:52 asciilifeform why?
14:52 asciilifeform a 1tb magnetic disk costs ~fiddybux.
14:53 mircea_popescu because network points that require servicing every 1tb of data throughput are about 10^8 less reliable than currently deployued items.
14:53 mircea_popescu which need servicing every 100 yottabytes or such.
14:53 asciilifeform didn't we just do a thread where mircea_popescu said 'piss on current-day 'reliable' ' ?
14:53 asciilifeform tapped == unreliable by definition.
14:54 mircea_popescu i was discussing capital goods reliability ; as an economic consideration.
14:54 asciilifeform and incidentally service doesn't have to mean interruption.
14:54 asciilifeform can fall over to new pad without old one being wholly exhausted.
14:54 asciilifeform like changing ups batteries.
14:55 mircea_popescu wasn't discussing ops reliability. but economic. "needs servicing" = costs btc.
14:55 asciilifeform yes, costs.
14:55 mircea_popescu hence "it will be expensive".
14:55 asciilifeform and it buys you the final solution to crypto headache.
14:55 mircea_popescu provided the rng is that good, which probably it is not etc.
14:56 asciilifeform whose 'probably.'
14:56 asciilifeform if thing is supplied by usg, whole thing 'probably' leaks 100% of bits to washington.
14:56 asciilifeform forget even rng.
14:56 asciilifeform if not supplied by rng - trivially works.
14:56 asciilifeform *by ug
14:56 mircea_popescu in general, a rng capable of delivering good quality data by the tb is not free.
14:57 asciilifeform to get the 2 hour fill, you will need at least 32 of mine.
14:57 mircea_popescu yeah, well...
14:58 asciilifeform (it is possible to use amp with higher slew rate and get moar bitz. but i deliberately used conservative design, with common parts)
14:58 mircea_popescu ironically, this level of assurance doesn't belong in the p2p part of the scheme, but exactly at the other end.
14:58 asciilifeform which?
14:59 mircea_popescu (uci) -> (gossipd) -> (user).
14:59 mircea_popescu at the USER end. if you want to otp the stuff you put through cs/rsa, by all means.
15:00 Framedragger ben_vulpes: IP is not just source code but shit like brand etc, and goodwill behind it. i'm not defending the foundation of IP, just sayin
15:00 asciilifeform it MUST go 'inside' the 'user' end, because otherwise enemy can cause you to waste pad.
15:00 asciilifeform by sending rubbish.
15:00 mircea_popescu Framedragger "goodwill" is not properly part of ip, no
15:00 asciilifeform (with pubkey barrier, he cannot)
15:01 Framedragger mircea_popescu: "intangible assets"
15:01 mircea_popescu not all intangibles are ip.
15:01 Framedragger god i should stop regurgitating my firm's propaganda
15:01 Framedragger true, of course
15:01 Framedragger we consider them to be ip, then try to put onto balance sheet, then inflate another co's value
15:02 trinque the good old "feelings" line item
15:02 mircea_popescu there's this pile of special pleading/peculiar interest "views" on reality. such as the marketeer derping about how "everyone else - contributes to costs ; marketing dept contributes to revenue".
15:02 mircea_popescu the "all intangibles are ip" is a similar clump of crap, sprouted by dickless failed lawyers who want to live the rest of their life in the "ip dept",
15:03 Framedragger ip dept rings a bell
15:03 mircea_popescu and get yachts quite as long as the "sec compliance" dickless failed lawyers or w/e/
15:04 asciilifeform what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ?
15:04 mircea_popescu also of some (psychiatric) interest, the nonsensical attempt to equate "meaning" altogether, as the concept, with the shoddy, untenable implementation by usg & friends. "ip" is not the superset of noesis ffs.
15:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the failure and dicklessness attach to the derp not to the item.
15:05 asciilifeform my q is, if 'dickless failure' gets yacht, what does dickful success get ? aircraft carrier ?
15:06 mircea_popescu this q is broken.
15:06 Framedragger what's funny is the kind of schemes that these views make possible. e.g. you go to bank and bank says your co is worth shit. then you discover that you have "goodwill" etc. so you create another co. and license the use of the main co's TM etc. use to that other co. then you go to bank and show these invoices etc.; voila, inflated value
15:06 mircea_popescu Framedragger kinda how "civilised world" works, financially.
15:06 asciilifeform $up gabriel_laddel
15:06 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
15:07 Framedragger yeah.
15:07 mircea_popescu hence "apple could buy russia - if only it wanted to!" "oh yeah, what about russia ?" "oh, putin just doesn't understand how the world works" "oh yeah ? and who;s going to show him ? you ?" "democracy! humanrights!" "fuck your mother."
15:08 mircea_popescu but whatever, let kink high have its jollies.
15:10 Framedragger the whole fucking UK is built on this back-and-forth financial-wannabe masturbation. in that sense, "fuck your mother" (which includes such material manifestations as russian winter as you try to move troops in it) sounds much more sober, lively and worthwhile, heh. /incoherent-ranting
15:10 trinque asciilifeform │ what's 'dickless' or 'failed' about a 40ft yacht full of benjies ? << the world belonging to someone else
15:13 mircea_popescu (ftr, 40ft yachts ~1-200k. less than "a house")
15:15 mircea_popescu 70ft items are about 1.2-1.3mn, and closer to comfortable.
15:18 mircea_popescu fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you.
↖
15:22 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480516 << off duty?! who will work the sails ?
15:22 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 19:18 mircea_popescu: fuckbed + coupla off duty girl beds + basic comforts like that. cooking remains a problem, obviously. but hey, at least you got the generator with you.
15:22 asciilifeform 70ft is respectable schooner, no?
~ 22 minutes ~
15:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform "yacht". they all have engines.
15:44 asciilifeform lame!
15:44 mircea_popescu heh.
~ 16 minutes ~
16:01 mircea_popescu ftr, ocean faring with sails is a) not particularly practical in groups under ~100, nor with per-capita footage over ~1 meter or so ; nor can these really be women.
16:02 asciilifeform tell it to orlov.
16:03 asciilifeform or the vikings.
16:07 mircea_popescu orlov, iirc, is mostly notable for begging for engine replacement ?
16:07 mircea_popescu or wait, im confusing him with rms again aren't i.
16:07 mircea_popescu darn.
16:07 asciilifeform ;;later tell ben_vulpes did 'ruby on rails' for mac os ever ACTUALLY WORK?? https://github.com/sparklemotion/nokogiri/issues/1206 << seems like not ?
16:07 gribble The operation succeeded.
16:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: orlov. he cheats with diesel motor when in port.
16:07 mircea_popescu also, vikings satisfied the rules. 100+ men in a 50 meter boat.
16:07 asciilifeform as most sail people appear to.
16:07 mircea_popescu or that's what they TELL YOU
16:08 mircea_popescu "oh, just you know... in port. and... at night. or when tired. or you know, when have to actually get somewhere."
16:08 asciilifeform lel
16:08 asciilifeform quite possible
16:08 mircea_popescu myeah. i'm sure floating randomly is not sailing.
16:08 * asciilifeform did not sail with him, cannot testify how much he cheats
16:10 asciilifeform my understanding is that various things have been roboticized on current boats - steering, possibly even sail trim/raise/lower.
16:10 mircea_popescu well it was already all winched in the 70s/80s
16:11 asciilifeform now driven by servos, driven by gps/glonas/etc
16:11 asciilifeform so possibly needs 98 fewer vikings..
16:13 mircea_popescu if you're gonna do that might as well engine neh ? but anyway!
16:13 mircea_popescu " mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 @behrangsa its limitation of remembering compilation flags by ruby, when the binary rubies are compiled by me or on travis they require to be given paths to statically linked libraries (*.a objects) - this path is then remembered by ruby and added to every gem compilation, as you can see this is not an error as only warning is issued, if you feel this requires fixing open a bug for MRI asking
16:13 mircea_popescu ..."
16:13 mircea_popescu these dudes are serious aren't they.
16:13 asciilifeform ^ summary: mega-famous www library, 'ruby on rails', supposedly luser-friendly, etc. DOES NOT ACTUALLY BUILD on recent mac os
16:13 asciilifeform by all appearances.
16:14 mircea_popescu "only warning is issued".
16:14 mircea_popescu "behrangsa commented Dec 22, 2014 @mpapis, I didn't know that. If this is something common to gems with native extensions, etc. and how MRI works and it is harmless, then I have no complaints. "
16:14 asciilifeform bold lie.
16:14 mircea_popescu "mpapis commented Dec 22, 2014 it is standard and harmless thing, but ruby could allow filtering out this flags, this could be done as part of the filtration process that already happens in preprocessing in miniruby - but I do not think it would be considered as a ticket without pull request / patch to address this problem."
16:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has read more of the crapola than anyone ought to be expected to for free.
16:15 asciilifeform i am wearing 3 gas masks.
16:15 mircea_popescu it's pretty entertaining.
16:15 asciilifeform in a sense.
16:15 mircea_popescu they've taken cubical drone wisdom to what's left of open source.
16:15 mircea_popescu which historically has existed specifically so as not to meet them.
16:15 asciilifeform i can't even wholly figure out what happened there.
16:15 asciilifeform despite trying all day.
16:16 mircea_popescu but anyway, very illustrative. derp's problem is not WHAT THE THING IS.
16:17 mircea_popescu his concern is circumscribed much more narrowly - what's the paperwork say ? "not an error!"
16:17 mircea_popescu bugmen thinking @ work.
16:18 asciilifeform eh all vermin say, 'that shit i just shat, it isn't shit, see, my arse emits only flowers and sunshine'
16:22 asciilifeform '@zenspider Mocking me? Honestly?!? And the "it works on my machine" response? I really appreciate the work people put into sharing their software with others, but you need to learn to treat people with respect who are trying to help improve your product. I need this for a new system I have inheirited. The first thing I am going to do is get rid of the dependency on your project.'
16:22 mircea_popescu heh
16:23 asciilifeform 'I'm going to close and lock this conversation, because I don't see any meaningful progress on reproducing the issue in the last month or so, and because of the unproductive conversations and noise.
16:23 asciilifeform '
16:24 asciilifeform oct. 28, 2015.
16:24 asciilifeform thing STILL croaks.
16:24 mircea_popescu awww
16:24 mircea_popescu wtf are you dfoing with ruby anyway.
16:25 asciilifeform it was the other end of a cpp thing i was doing for money. tried to reconstruct its natural habitat, to test...
16:26 mircea_popescu lack of empathy srsly wtf is wrong with these people.
16:26 mircea_popescu it's like they've ~all imported a bunch of known-broken, proven-dysfunctional mental tools and by god will fucking use those! EMPATHY!
16:26 asciilifeform the more interesting question: this, recall, is mega-popular luser-friendly thing. running on #1 most beloved wwwtronicist's platform.
16:26 asciilifeform IT HASN'T WORKED SINCE ... at least oct '15 ?
16:27 mircea_popescu ~nobody uses it.
16:27 asciilifeform what do all of the ben_vulpeses do ? pass a vm around?
16:27 asciilifeform they all set it up back when it built ? which ?
16:28 asciilifeform linked report is circa dec. 2014 !
16:30 davout lulzy
16:31 davout works on davout's machine!
16:31 trinque asciilifeform: docker; that's exactly what they do
16:31 asciilifeform davout: spiffy. perhaps you can rent it out to folks.
16:31 asciilifeform trinque: do what ?
16:32 trinque pass VM around
16:32 asciilifeform why not mail whole machine around.
16:32 asciilifeform same degree of idiocy.
16:32 ben_vulpes > reconstruct its natural habitat
16:32 ben_vulpes ho ho ho ho ho
16:32 mircea_popescu more empathy alf!
16:33 asciilifeform i predict that before long, folks will do this.
16:33 asciilifeform just main motherfucking server.
16:33 asciilifeform *mail
16:33 asciilifeform in a crate.
16:33 asciilifeform back and forth.
16:33 mircea_popescu you mean, back like in the 60s ?
16:33 asciilifeform aha.
16:33 mircea_popescu progress! community!
16:33 asciilifeform except they were more advanced, mailed only tape
16:33 mircea_popescu nah, you wanted to run x on y, gotta mail a y.
16:34 asciilifeform well, 'y' was likely to take a full rail car
16:34 asciilifeform so best not be poor.
16:34 ben_vulpes nokogiri
16:34 ben_vulpes always so much fun
16:35 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: shipping vms around is already sop with these shitheads
16:35 davout ben_vulpes: osx doesn't really help either...
16:35 ben_vulpes docker adoption is largely driven by people who can't get it to work on their workstations
16:35 mircea_popescu ^ ahaha .
16:35 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: specifically that turd?!
16:35 ben_vulpes the whole railsvironment
16:35 ben_vulpes and burgeoningly the go environment as well
16:36 ben_vulpes because wtf managing source and packages is hard or what was it
16:36 asciilifeform lulzy
16:36 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: have you tried to run down "best practices" wrt installing ruby and rails on a macintosh?
16:36 mircea_popescu in other dubious news, this country is fucking incomprehensible. so i made mayo out of the greatest fucking eggs. clearly corn fed, happy chickens. same shop, tomatoes... the mealiest most retardedly disgusting ship-grown tomatoes. wtf! it's like they only shave half their face.
16:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: yes.
16:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it dies as described in the link.
16:36 ben_vulpes is it not gloriously retarded.
16:37 ben_vulpes what, all of the ruby install?
16:37 ben_vulpes i'm talking chruby rbenv and friends
16:37 ben_vulpes and the shims shitshow
16:37 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'macports' installs ruby per se. it is the rails thing that melts down.
16:37 davout ben_vulpes: i never understood the appeal of these turds...
16:38 ben_vulpes davout plays rails without rbenv?
16:38 davout ben_vulpes: been working with rails since '07, never, ever used that shit
16:39 ben_vulpes probably because you figured out how it worked before those became the hot new 'right' way to do things
16:39 ben_vulpes "oh just" hose your box in a million interesting ways
16:39 davout either install ruby package or build ruby from source, at least that's how *i* do it
16:40 ben_vulpes and how do you shuffle between ruby projects with wildly different dependencies?
16:41 davout i usually beat those into submission so they work with the ruby i use
16:41 davout i probably have much less experience than you juggling between X turds from Y different clients
16:41 davout though
16:41 ben_vulpes it's pretty classic response from experienced ruby folks
16:42 ben_vulpes "oh well i usually just work on one thing for 9-18 months at a stretch, jump to a new job and then wipe the entire install after a week of tearing my hair out"
16:42 ben_vulpes meanwhile i need to boot rails app X running ruby version Y with subtly different deps from rails app Z running ruby version Q in about five minutes.
16:43 asciilifeform the more interesting question: how many of these folks understand that their 'job' would not EVEN EXIST if it weren't for this lunacy.
16:43 davout more like "oh, ruby 1.9 doesn't support this new 2.0 syntax, let's just sed it into sanity"
↖
16:43 ben_vulpes "sanity" roflffufozlzozfl
16:43 davout ben_vulpes: i guess that sucks...
16:43 ben_vulpes yeah it's fucking miserable.
16:43 ben_vulpes the publically available toolchain is ~worthless.
16:44 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "as it always is, pleb!"
16:44 ben_vulpes and you raise the issue with railsfolk of standing and the response is almost always "yow. that sucks. have you tried docker?"
16:44 davout kek
16:45 ben_vulpes no, but do you know what i'm going to do? buy a fucking laptop engrave your company's name on it charge you for it install your shit on it and keep it.
16:45 asciilifeform here's to hoping that docker undergoes the same death as described earlier.
16:45 asciilifeform (why should ~it~ continue to build!)
16:46 ben_vulpes oh it routinely fails to be useful to old installs
16:46 ben_vulpes i went to upgrade a docker installation and they pulled this gorgeous trick where they actually deny access to repos based on docker client version
↖
16:46 ben_vulpes bitch are you /serious/
16:46 ben_vulpes i wanted that old ubuntu for a motherfucking reason
16:47 davout "not best practice!!1"
16:47 ben_vulpes *tearing noises as /me excises more sillicon valley horseshit from client stacks, fixes all problems that had previously been papered over with docker, and deploys to fresh ubuntu 14.04*
16:49 ben_vulpes i actually had to walk django-compressor backwards through its released versions, something like 3 whole major releases just to get it to work with the django 1.3.5 that this site needed
16:49 davout in other news romania's soccer just got surprise butseks'd
16:50 davout *soccer team
16:50 ben_vulpes each single breaking change was the result of an entirely wankatronic 'upgrade' to the compressor lib to take more dependencies on more stupid django internals
16:52 davout i found a lot of peace and pleasure in learning, and coding a bit, in straight c
16:54 davout so. damn. straightforward.
16:55 asciilifeform aha, c existed before there 'had to be' employment for 50 million idiots.
16:56 asciilifeform it is a mistake to suppose that the cancers, e.g., rails soup, happen by accident.
16:56 ben_vulpes dude there is no head to the hydra
16:56 asciilifeform no need for a head.
16:56 asciilifeform entirely p2p thing.
16:56 asciilifeform let's work example,
16:57 asciilifeform mr schmuck, the django or whatever dev, introduces breakage, additional dependencies.
16:57 asciilifeform what is the reaction downstream ?
16:57 asciilifeform grumbling, installing 'updates' etc.
16:57 asciilifeform upstream? 'hoorah! our shit is Moar Relevant nao'
16:58 ben_vulpes how can the game dynamics produce any other result?
17:00 asciilifeform different reward matrix --> different result.
17:00 asciilifeform in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded.
17:00 asciilifeform as per http://www.loper-os.org/?p=388 .
17:01 davout i definitely agree that this applies to rails the phramework, but i am and will openly remain a rubyrast
17:01 davout the language
17:01 * davout reading
17:05 asciilifeform my realization is that this kind of thing is EXACTLY same as fiatolade
↖
17:06 asciilifeform 'jobs' come 'out of nowhere'
17:06 davout asciilifeform: i don't see much of a link between "dependency mess" and "lack of automation"
17:06 davout ah, missed the "in this case, 'work creation' is rewarded." line
17:07 davout now i see
17:07 asciilifeform davout: see thread. if the mess did not exist, ben_vulpes et al would have to earn bread some other way
↖
17:08 davout but that's kind of the same thing as saying "work creation is rewarded" when more modern airplanes require more maintenance
17:08 asciilifeform exactly same
17:09 ben_vulpes rails webshites have 10x the complexity for 1.1x the 'features'
17:09 davout you could fix the cessna i fly with a toothpick and some wire, doesn't mean that the existence of the A380 is justified by the creation of labor for the cattle
17:10 asciilifeform well point of a380 is supposed to be moving folks across ocean cheaply
17:10 davout ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c
↖ ↖ ↖
17:11 davout asciilifeform: yeah that's the point
17:11 davout not "creating more labour to keep the cows busy"
17:12 asciilifeform davout: my observation was that there is ~0 incentive to make wwwtronic systems lighter/more consistent/more apprehendable/less broken.
↖
17:12 asciilifeform and quite a bit of incentive in opposite direction.
17:14 davout your point is basically that the fireman could have a tendency to pyromania?
↖
17:15 asciilifeform davout: not simply this, but that these particular firemen do very little ASIDE FROM setting fires.
17:15 asciilifeform have, in fact, invented a means of 'putting out' fire that simply moves it, 10x amplified, to another spot.
↖
17:15 asciilifeform rather like al schwartz's roach repellent which merely moves them to the neighbouring flat.
17:16 davout well, i think that this is a result of people being stupid and lazy, not really much more
17:16 asciilifeform davout: stupid and lazy come from misaligned incentives.
17:16 asciilifeform when stupidity, laziness, lead to starvation - they evaporate rapidly.
17:17 davout i blame 16gb of ram being seen as a small-sized server as the main cause of lazyness
17:19 asciilifeform the lack of incentive thing is elementary
17:19 asciilifeform for instance, what would happen if ben_vulpes were to fix the crud on a permanent, published basis ? rather than case-by-case
17:19 asciilifeform his firm would fold.
17:20 asciilifeform (nor, i suspect, could he do this even if he wanted to - would have to also fix 1,001 turdware libs that the sufferers use, each of which will never be fixed because some 3-man shop somewhere also needs to eat... etc)
17:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480691 << gotta understand, the number of people alive qualified to do this safely is probably < 100.
17:26 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c
17:26 asciilifeform similar to reactor operators.
17:29 asciilifeform how many 'i wanna web site!111' folks are ready to pay for a year of 'there are 100 of me' time.
17:30 asciilifeform this is elementarily a debasement situation
17:30 asciilifeform 'we haven't enough bread, let's serve up 90%/10% sawdust/flour'
17:31 davout probably just as many people that are willing to pay $maxint to be able to shit in golden toilet
17:31 asciilifeform davout: fewer.
17:31 asciilifeform golden toilet is 'status object', can be displayed.
17:31 davout the point is that wtf do i need golden toilet for, i shit just as fine on a regular one!
↖
17:32 asciilifeform aha, in software world they re-defined 'just fine' to include turdolade that won't even build, regular crashes, infections, whole shebang.
17:32 asciilifeform as per http://oglaf.com/delusionist
17:33 davout if what i want is sell dildos online, and $framework runs on 15$/month box, wtf do i need a website that could run on a ti-89 for x10000 the price?
↖
17:33 asciilifeform for absolutely nothing, esp. if you can offload the cost of your turd being pwned weekly, needing 16GB of ram, crashing daily, etc. on OTHER PEOPLE
↖
17:34 asciilifeform like factory owner offloads pollution into the river.
17:34 asciilifeform imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants.
↖
17:34 asciilifeform like chemists do.
17:35 asciilifeform currently these folx are living in a golden age of 'i'll take a shit as big as i like and somebody ~else~ will clean up'
17:35 davout i can see your parallel with the fiat world through the mere existence of the "technical debt" expression
17:35 asciilifeform aha.
17:35 asciilifeform the magic here is that this debt, like the other debt, is NEVER paid.
17:35 asciilifeform only gathers interest.
17:36 davout i'm not sure i agree with the generalization
17:36 asciilifeform think about ben_vulpes's docker
17:37 asciilifeform and all of the idiocies papered over by the use thereof
17:37 asciilifeform these will pile up, up.
17:39 asciilifeform certainly nobody is shoveling the shit in any other direction but - higher.
17:39 asciilifeform and higher.
17:39 asciilifeform in exactly what way does this process differ from fiatocalypse ?
17:40 davout while i don't care much for docker specifically, i don't think it's a good approach to blame people's stupidity and lazyness on *tools*. sure it makes it easier to be retarded. and if your point is that it makes every sane's person job harder, why not, i can agree with that
17:41 asciilifeform tools are not dropped by martians, but are made in response to incentives.
17:42 asciilifeform http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/02/industrys-parting-gifts.html << classic orlol on subj
17:43 davout "have larger club, kill more enemies, rape moar of their daughters", pretty clear to me. "intentionnally shit in my own soup, so i can remain employed as a maker of fresh soup, as a general thing" is something i have a bit more trouble seeing though
17:43 asciilifeform 'Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality.... When consumers refuse to pay so much more than they feel they have to, Company A's widget fails in the marketplace, and the company is liquidated.'
↖
17:43 * davout reading
17:44 asciilifeform davout: it never looks like you're shitting in own soup, from the inside.
17:44 asciilifeform looks like 'bigger club'
17:51 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758235 << turns out, we had a thread!
17:51 a111 Logged on 2014-07-16 19:04 mircea_popescu: "Suppose you have a company that sets out to make a widget. Let's call it Company A. Its founders are all engineers, of an uncompromising sort, and the widget they design and manufacture is of tremendous longevity, durability and overall quality." << hey check out orlov.
17:55 davout "while testing, kitting-out and packing would be performed by religious groups (in conservative states) and groups of people with alternative sexual orientations (in liberal ones)" <<< win
17:57 davout asciilifeform: interesting read indeed
17:58 asciilifeform 'company D' does not exist. no sane investor knowingly funds a 'company A'; no sane engineer knowingly works for a 'company B'; nobody sane at all is interested in involving himself in a 'company C'/
17:59 asciilifeform .
17:59 asciilifeform which rounds out the list.
~ 45 minutes ~
18:44 Framedragger framedr
18:45 Framedragger whoops ignore, window focus damn you
~ 21 minutes ~
19:07 trinque $up Arathnim
19:07 deedbot Arathnim voiced for 30 minutes.
19:07 trinque Arathnim: hello, saw you in #lisp talking to gabriel_laddel
19:09 Arathnim trinque: Thanks.
~ 55 minutes ~
20:05 shinohai https://twitter.com/vijayprashad/status/741050151985401856
↖
20:06 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480305 << Give it a few hours
20:06 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:09 shinohai: paging BingoBoingo ... he has to write this one.
20:07 shinohai I have a draft of a Wendy's CC hack coverup going on.
20:11 asciilifeform ;;later tell Arathnim https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_symbolics?&sort=-downloads&page=2
20:11 gribble The operation succeeded.
20:15 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480354 << Microscopic cost per month if infrequently used
↖
20:15 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:45 asciilifeform: prepaid mobiles exist in usa, extortionate cost.
~ 56 minutes ~
21:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-11#1480764 << 0 cost if never used! just like yours and my dirigibles...
21:12 a111 Logged on 2016-06-11 00:15 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480354 << Microscopic cost per month if infrequently used
21:15 mircea_popescu this channel is insufficiently dead omfg.
21:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480640 << so basically this is shannonizing programmer.
21:17 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 20:43 davout: more like "oh, ruby 1.9 doesn't support this new 2.0 syntax, let's just sed it into sanity"
21:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480652 << ahaha ok this is pretty lulzy.
21:18 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 20:46 ben_vulpes: i went to upgrade a docker installation and they pulled this gorgeous trick where they actually deny access to repos based on docker client version
21:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480680 << well done, catching up :)
21:22 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:05 asciilifeform: my realization is that this kind of thing is EXACTLY same as fiatolade
21:22 shinohai ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/RdU
21:22 gribble The operation succeeded.
21:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480685 << no, this is the problem. a bunch of idiots would have to earn bread different way ; and ben_vulpes would be allowed to do something less idiotic with his time. that's the problem whenever derps get the reins - they drive the ship ashore and someone's stuck fishing it back out.
↖
21:23 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:07 asciilifeform: davout: see thread. if the mess did not exist, ben_vulpes et al would have to earn bread some other way
21:24 mircea_popescu the problem with this being that it ambiguously mixes two categories. one from outside can't distinguish between the pigs that drove the ship into mud and the poor souls trying to push it back out. they're all ~ equally covered in the same shit.
21:25 mircea_popescu and this is systematically the problem of the fucking state. by inventing "god's marriage" it fucks up the natural social hierarchy ; where some get all and most get none. and by inventing "bureaucracy" idem. keep reducing "inequality" which is to say - those who deserve to starve and those who deserve to puke - all get the same three peas ; those who deserve to bathe and those who deserve to burn - all in the lukewarm pit.
21:25 mircea_popescu a "brilliant fucking idea" for everyone except everyone that matters. hence democracy.
21:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480691 << i never considered ruby/django/bullshit for trilema. neither did ANYONE who ever made a tmsr website, unless i'm missremembering. it's just not useful - if it were, i guess we'd be using it.
↖
21:27 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c
21:29 * asciilifeform was unable - in spite of considerable effort - to run 'hello world' example in 'rails'.
21:29 mircea_popescu heh.
21:29 * asciilifeform called upon a full-time master of subj, on retainer, who was unable to usefully comment.
21:29 asciilifeform thing is cursed by ze godz.
21:30 mircea_popescu ahahaha
21:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480696 << word.
21:32 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:14 davout: your point is basically that the fireman could have a tendency to pyromania?
21:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480698 << also word.
21:32 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:15 asciilifeform: have, in fact, invented a means of 'putting out' fire that simply moves it, 10x amplified, to another spot.
21:32 mircea_popescu that's exactly how it fucking works. "fixed" by moving, but accentuated. "win-win".
21:33 mircea_popescu medicine works a lot like this, in principle but with smaller parameters. law works precisely the same way.
21:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480717 << you're young yet.
21:34 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:31 davout: the point is that wtf do i need golden toilet for, i shit just as fine on a regular one!
21:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480720 << well, various webscum will derp about how "website doesn't look correct". will lose you all the business of $5 bucks, they fuck themselves manually.
21:38 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:33 davout: if what i want is sell dildos online, and $framework runs on 15$/month box, wtf do i need a website that could run on a ti-89 for x10000 the price?
21:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-11#1480758 << amusingly, iirc that shoe is actually mentioned in this very log, and ~nowhere else on the "entire" www.
21:41 a111 Logged on 2016-06-11 00:05 shinohai: https://twitter.com/vijayprashad/status/741050151985401856
21:42 shinohai I remembered it being mentioned somewhere but have yet to find the ref
21:42 mircea_popescu might have been in the older-than-btcbase logs.
~ 33 minutes ~
22:16 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480202 << ac isn't 'mission critical'. if it goes down for 15 minutes or even 5 hours, you might be a little sweaty and grumpy, but your hard drives aren't so flexible, especially if they get caught mid-write with their pants down (but ianae)
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22:16 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 16:37 mircea_popescu: yeah but you want the bridge to be wide enough. 1kw is not practically useful - inductive charge for an average ac unit for instance easily beats 5kw
22:16 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480213 << i lolled
22:16 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 16:40 ben_vulpes: davout: triggered
22:17 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480214 << now ~that's~ the business. will defo be looking into these at next place (2017 sometime)
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22:17 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 16:40 mircea_popescu: http://www.steadypower.com/products.php?product=Gillette-SPS%252d120-Home-Standby-Generator-%2812kW%29 << ftr, very reasonable 12kw units available. 4k what's that, half a weekend trip.
22:17 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480284 << hulked. (or was it thieled?)
22:17 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:05 shinohai: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/10/gawker-media-files-for-ch-11-bankruptcy-protection.html <<< bwhahaha Gawker filers for Bankruptcy
22:18 pete_dushenski aha ben had it
22:19 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480374 << seems like a lot of busywork to circumvent own rule, which i suppose only goes to show that http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480384 is the controlling point. head would never do this to self, ergo no head.
22:19 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 18:02 mircea_popescu: it's dogvomit, not a vole. it has no head.
22:19 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 17:58 asciilifeform: be transmitted over a U.S. border, then legally the NSA/CIA/SCS will claim that it then falls into an international transmission and that they are justified in performing an intercept, even though it is a domestic call, but because it was shot out of the United States over an international loopback. Another wrinkle is because this loopback to the UK, the British government will also intercept it at the loopba
22:20 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: 1 set of rules for public/low-cleared grunts, another - for eloi. elementary.
22:21 pete_dushenski this is meta-nsa argument
22:21 asciilifeform meta-nsa ~exists~. even has own www site... see l0gz.
22:21 pete_dushenski ie. 'rsa pill really exists, just you wait until they drop bomb'
22:22 pete_dushenski $google trilema meta-nsa
22:22 deedbot https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/nsa-americans-metadata-year-documents << NSA stores metadata of millions of web users for up to a year, secret ... | http://trilema.com/2016/no-such-labs-snsa-april-2016-statement/ << No Such lAbs (S.NSA), April 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by ... | http://www.wired.com/2013/06/phew-it-was-just-metadata-not-think-again/ << Phew, NSA Is Just Collecting Metadata. (You Should Still Worry ...
22:22 asciilifeform pissing on law is a pretty elementary superpower.
22:22 pete_dushenski well that search was useless
22:23 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: but then why use superpower so inefficiently ? it's like 'i have x-ray vision, but only when i look at this angled mirror at you'
22:23 pete_dushenski why not just look directly at specimen ?
22:24 mod6 pete_dushenski: Gordie Howe died :/
22:24 asciilifeform because you want to maintain the pretense of 'rule of law' ?
22:24 pete_dushenski mod6: eh no way
22:24 asciilifeform mod6: who was that
22:24 mod6 Yeah, he was 88.
22:24 mod6 asciilifeform: legendary Canadian hockey player.
22:25 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: but that begs the question : why is this loop-di-loop necessary to maintain the pretense ?
22:25 pete_dushenski and does it even maintain the pretense ?
22:25 pete_dushenski hartford walers star iirc
22:25 pete_dushenski back when that team was even a thing
22:25 mod6 Red Wings
22:26 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: considering that the whole ministry hasn't been closed down and personnel - jailed as members of a criminal org - i'd say the pretense is maintained.
22:26 mircea_popescu pete_dushenski suppose you wanna fuck during those 5 hours!
22:26 mod6 He did spend 1 year with the Whalers
22:27 pete_dushenski mod6: last year too. i think i mighta had that card, which is why it rang that memory's bell
22:27 mircea_popescu lol
22:27 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: or go for a 10km walk for ice cream!
22:27 mircea_popescu kr
22:28 mircea_popescu or* call girl's bestie "hey you got power ? ok if we come over to fuck at your place ?"
22:28 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: not exactly...
22:28 pete_dushenski inmates in asylum also maintain pretense of sanity ?
22:29 pete_dushenski because everyone else on the outside is pointing and laughing
22:30 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: if i was at that life stage (yes, it's coming!) then i will have one garage for five cars and another of ~equal size~ for back-up power
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22:30 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: asylum with infinite funding and heavy weapons.
22:30 pete_dushenski weapons too heavy to lift and paper of such poor quality even the knock-off artists on the other side of the pacific don't want it
22:31 pete_dushenski nice story, but just a story
22:31 asciilifeform and them packetz diddle themselves aha lol.
22:33 pete_dushenski maybe i'm thick but how is packet diddling 'heavy weapons' ?
22:34 pete_dushenski unless i'm mistaken, this is within alf's modest ability, and he is not statal superpower
22:34 asciilifeform at every fiber landfall?
22:35 pete_dushenski any, not every
22:36 asciilifeform or any
22:36 asciilifeform i can't speak for pete_dushenski , but i don't have a diddler staff hut at even one...
22:37 mircea_popescu soon enough, once we complete the uti.
22:37 mircea_popescu am i the only one that's very amused by this joke ? guess so huh.
22:41 mod6 lol
22:42 mod6 thats 2x, gotta be careful or it'll stick :D
22:42 mircea_popescu lol
22:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you also don't have to dispense shitty cheese to a bunch of deeply retarded, profoundly useless, schmucks with pretensions.
22:54 mircea_popescu you're acting as if they're doing that, or any other thing, for fucking fun. it's not for fun. they're doing that, like everything else, for the same reason : they perceive they gotta do something ; dunno how to do anything useful or effectual and so this is what's left.
22:55 mircea_popescu the optionality of the state is just about zero.
22:55 mircea_popescu throughout. no exceptions. no meta-bullshit. from petraeus to the last grunt, zero, nada. nothing.
23:08 * pete_dushenski has seen this utter dearth of optionality with own eyes, from inside. 'no fun' doesn't begin to describe it.
23:10 pete_dushenski the mere suggestion that the state can ~do~ things that private individuals can is misleading and farcical.
23:10 pete_dushenski 'golden toilet' is only a thing because state can't even make basic toilet. it doesn't ~want~ toilet made of precious metals, it just can't find its way to a more efficient solution.
23:11 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-11#1480782 << what is a "website"
23:11 a111 Logged on 2016-06-11 01:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480691 << i never considered ruby/django/bullshit for trilema. neither did ANYONE who ever made a tmsr website, unless i'm missremembering. it's just not useful - if it were, i guess we'd be using it.
23:12 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480691 << /me squints and points at the funny frenchman
23:13 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: as much as rails is in many ways retarded i tend to think that if this were true, folks would write websites in straight c
23:14 ben_vulpes i'm a peripherial acquaintance with another cult that occasionally writes, say, templating languages in c. for use from c.
23:17 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-10#1480694 << another take on this: the only constraint on complexity is design and discipline.
23:17 a111 Logged on 2016-06-10 21:12 asciilifeform: davout: my observation was that there is ~0 incentive to make wwwtronic systems lighter/more consistent/more apprehendable/less broken.
23:18 ben_vulpes complexity in software, that is
23:18 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: noshit.jpg
23:18 ben_vulpes man the 'not quite emacs' keybindings in weechat are killing me
23:18 asciilifeform my observation was that there is STRONG anti-incentive.
23:18 ben_vulpes yeah but more like diesel engine and less like mortgage origination
23:19 ben_vulpes americans think /healthcare/ is going to bury them in costs. they have no idea what the maintenance cost of the past 2 decades is going to be. what a burden poorly written software is on a business.
23:20 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ~nobody sees it as 'maintenance costs', but as 'job program.'
23:20 ben_vulpes the windows shop approach is not at all bad from a resourcing perspective. 'software is complicated and sucks and we need a budget for maintaining ours. may as well just pick technologies we can staff for 60k/yr/butt and allocate integer butts.'
23:20 asciilifeform great until MOTHERFUCKER WON'T BUILD NO MATTER WHAT
23:20 asciilifeform because some dickless wonder 'patched'
23:21 ben_vulpes oh i am waiting for the great implosion of unwrangleable complexity
23:21 asciilifeform meanwhile,
23:21 asciilifeform 'All existing phones in the holding cells were replaced mid year. The previous telephones were equipped with a hand-set which created a number of issues. Our primary objective was to allow prisoners telephone access while minimizing risk to staff and prisoners. On many occasions prisoners would forcibly remove the cord and handset from the telephone housing. The newly installed telephones have no cord or handset which, in turn, mini
23:21 asciilifeform mizes security, injury risk and maintenance costs.'
23:21 ben_vulpes if it leaves me eating dust and my children picking pockets i will go to the street gladly having seen it
23:24 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes like wotpaste.
23:25 ben_vulpes no actually.
23:26 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes also, the problem with healthcare isn't the cost per se. it's that it distinguishes between people. they have a serious problem with any sort of "reality comes home" situation where difference between people may be forced from outside.
23:26 mircea_popescu cost is just a proxy for this. they don't perceive the same capacity from "it", mostly because htey're imbeciles and will perceive my cock when it's sliding in and no sooner. which is why they talk of that not this.
23:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: elaborate ?
23:27 mircea_popescu on which part ?
23:27 asciilifeform which difference between people
23:27 ben_vulpes that some can afford to live and some mustest die
23:27 mircea_popescu we both fuck the same sick girl. i don't care and you die of a brain abscess.
23:28 asciilifeform so? routine.
23:28 asciilifeform sorta how death worx
23:28 mircea_popescu this is like some people buying cars that take them places and some other people buying cars that take them to the morgue
23:28 asciilifeform aha. and this also is sop
23:28 mircea_popescu "the people" are up in arms about this. not permissibru.
23:29 asciilifeform recall, the car and nothing else caps the mtbf of usaschwitz inmate at something like 200 yrs
23:29 ben_vulpes point i was seeking to make is that as much as usians like to bitch about cost of health insurance and what it doesn't cover, they have no idea what pain is lurking in the near future
23:29 mircea_popescu what future.
23:29 ben_vulpes who knows how many knight capitals are waiting.
23:29 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'Colt Health and Life Insurance Co.'
23:30 * asciilifeform subscriber
23:30 * ben_vulpes not discussing asciilifeforms
23:30 asciilifeform afaik it takes everyone.
23:30 asciilifeform (unless you are an elephant, and may need larger calibre)
23:30 ben_vulpes now i need a sophistry gas mask
23:31 mircea_popescu alf's favourite approach is to discuss something vaguely related :D
23:31 mircea_popescu but in a lot of detail! makes up for distance through depth!
23:32 ben_vulpes anyways there's a whole infection to deploy between today and a world of impoverished fiatcorps.
23:32 ben_vulpes path there will be bumpy for folks. in the above and other ways.
23:32 mircea_popescu if history's any guide, fiatcorps could forever buy russia. at any rate the byzantines could buy asia. according to them at any rate.
23:37 asciilifeform meanwhile, in the great uszimbabwe,
23:37 asciilifeform 'A local apartment com-munity had become a problem with unsecured vacant units, garbage, graffiti, attractive nuisances, and blight. The owner also routinely rented condemned units that had no power (cord was run from other units). Neighboring owners complained of rodents coming from the unattended landscaping and units. Squatters were found in units by the police department. Owner was cited...'
23:41 mircea_popescu "attractive nuisances" ? ie, non-boring party ?
23:41 asciilifeform aha.
23:41 mircea_popescu derps.
23:42 mircea_popescu apparently, it's "anything that may attract a child", and outright a defense in tresspass!
23:42 mircea_popescu that country is fucking nuts.
23:42 asciilifeform recall the famous band-saw case.
23:43 mircea_popescu "unenclosed pools, machinery or stacks of building materials" that present "an irresistible lure" omfg what the everloving fuck.
23:43 mircea_popescu if your kid goes on my property YOU PAY ME! not the fucking other way around omfg!
23:45 mircea_popescu and this is all post 1990, too. fucking place went to shit with moscow in tandem.
23:45 mircea_popescu scandalous.
23:47 asciilifeform hey, they even had, e.g., http://overlawyered.com/2006/09/the-burglar-and-the-skylight-another-debunking-that-isnt
23:47 asciilifeform ^ the infamous skylight case
23:58 mircea_popescu http://wyomcases.courts.state.wy.us/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=123304 << state agencies, of course, are immune by law.
23:58 asciilifeform not only,
23:59 asciilifeform but in - afaik - all of usa, folks who 'cause' the death of policeman by, say, running away and then he crashed his cruiser, are tried for murder.
23:59 mircea_popescu policeman is a shitstain best shot on sight.
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