#trilema | 2015-09-09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5481 @ 0.00074932 = 4.107 BTC [-]

00:05

*

BingoBoingo becoming convinced no one does better blackface than the Japs

00:11

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9350 @ 0.00074932 = 7.0061 BTC [-]

00:11

asciilifeform: if gpg is so librarification-resistant, how have you jammed it into the cardano?

00:13

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-09-2015#1263077 << continuing our series of "power rangers are retarded lol", today's installment : bitcoind's idea of "passwords" allows digita and lowercase characters. no symbols no uppercase. not only does this mean a bitcoind pw is half the strength of a normal pw, but (the actual likely purpose of this retardation) it makes it trivial to identify wallet password lists. ESPEC

00:13

Logged on 05-09-2015 02:38:55; mircea_popescu: in today's lulz : it turns out that bitcoin-qt interface, if presented with a malformed value such as 1,275 btc instead of the 1.275 notation,

00:13

IALLY seeing how the fucktarded implementation of "accounts" etc pretty much ensures everyone will be using multiplew wallets.

00:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqfjiuqVrV4 << when usg says "jump," gates jumps !

00:16

Bill Gates jumping over a chair like a gangster - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ox8INT )

00:17

<ben_vulpes> asciilifeform: if gpg is so librarification-resistant, how have you jammed it into the cardano? << He only needs format comptibility

00:22

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-09-2015#1265774 << I hack it using the parenscript REPL you can find in the Masamune repository. Mozrepl (the basis) provides some very rudimentary debugging facities that tbh, I almost never use due to a burning hatred of js and no reason to ever sharpen that edge of the blade.

00:22

Logged on 07-09-2015 23:21:26; trinque: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel Conkeror has made its way into daily use; JS debugging tips? Best thing providing a JS REPL in Emacs?

00:24

Incidentally, improving the browser interface is what I plan on using to punish interns / employees who create DSLs, configuration file formats, non-reader macro syntax extensions...

00:24

Something like 40% of the conkeror js translates to PS without signaling conditions using the included js->ps transpiler.

00:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-09-2015#1265693 << nifty

00:25

Logged on 07-09-2015 21:39:45; ascii_field: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel http://www.sigsam.org/bulletin/articles/178/stoutemyer.pdf << some actual implementation details re: 'derive' & 'mulisp'

00:25

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00074966 = 20.3158 BTC [+] {3}

00:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-09-2015#1265781 << I lol'd

00:27

Logged on 07-09-2015 23:28:45; trinque: davout: ruby is objectively butts. rebuttal?

00:32

<gabriel_laddel> Incidentally, improving the browser interface is what I plan on using to punish interns / employees who create DSLs, configuration file formats, non-reader macro syntax extensions... << How is "improving:" and not "killing" the word here

00:32

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267085 << the famished take self-funded sabbaticals now ? not that mats is wealthy, but eating wallpaper he ain't.

00:32

Logged on 09-09-2015 02:24:59; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1266831 << i don't know the fella personally, but as i gather his main problem is starvation. it makes people foolish, i speak from experience

00:32

though, yes, to be sure, hunger can make a man crazy.

00:33

though i have to say, asciilifeform, for a starved man, you think mighty clearly.

00:33

BingoBoingo: because there is a lot of information that needs to be sucked out of the web, and having a 'sharp' blade with which to do this will be quite valuable moving forwards.

↖ ↖

00:34

gabriel_laddel: Sharp blades excise tumors like javascript

00:34

whatever

00:34

e.g., scriping combinations of browser movements, OCR routines and X windows level key-presses together for data mining

00:35

there is a partially complete js->parenscript transpiler so that you don't have to read js

00:35

just hack parenscript (which compiles down to JS)

00:35

you get macros etc.

00:36

Scripting web content ought to entirely be the user's choice

00:37

?

00:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SzIXy-oFlU << if anything is microaggression, this is it. unambiguously directed yet so far from lethal it's laughable.

00:37

Hungarian camerawoman fired after intentionally kicking, tripping refugees - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1OxbRxc )

00:37

BingoBoingo: I don't think you have context here

00:38

gabriel_laddel: A page is a document. Why should anyone other than the user impose any scripts upon the text?

00:39

BingoBoingo: because I want your information pl0x and I'm not going to ask nicely.

00:39

Because FUCK YOU. Few things are worse than a textbooks with highlights already

00:40

BingoBoingo: it is quite obvious that I've poorly expressed exactly why the web interface for Masamune exists.

00:40

I don't know wtf textbook highlighting has to do with anything

00:42

gabriel_laddel: You have to understand I am appraoching this as a trained Librarian. Scripting is at best a form of highlighting (never a reason for broswerscript or postscript to be turing complete) Everything else it does is vandalism

00:42

nah, you've got it backwards

00:42

the correct model is that you never have a DSL or "mini-language"

00:43

the full power of the machine should be yours, at all times

00:43

Want to launch a 3D visualization from a button press in the back of the settings menu? Sure, why not.

00:43

Who are you pointing "yours" at?

00:44

He who wields Masamune, a loper device, lispm etc.

00:45

I'm just wondering who at all should have to eat javascript asbestos to become a Great Red Dragon of the Information age.

00:45

and what's wrong with notation/dsl/mini-languages?

00:46

BingoBoingo: Enough with the almost analogies already. They're an escape hatch to nowhere.

00:46

Fuck You Imma Dragon.

00:46

punkman: you lose the full power of the programming language.

00:47

one sec, thinking of an example...

00:47

This Dragon says No Javascript or experiance famine

00:47

<gabriel_laddel> punkman: you lose the full power of the programming language. << In nearly every case a 3rd part gives you code you don't want a full language. You want a plainly crippled language.

00:48

BingoBoingo: wrong wrong wrong, study more

00:49

gabriel_laddel: If I want to print pretty papers I don't need, want, or desire turing complete postscript

00:49

not until you do

00:49

punkman: the problem with creating "DSLs" in ALGOL is that you end up losing M-. (jump to definition) and any ability you may have had to interact with the AST of the previous programming language (read: the actual language, as it is the thing that contains all the semantics) when you change the syntax

00:49

better to be able to extend your DSL at will

00:50

punkman: the whole DSL thing doesn't have a name in lisp because it isn't needed

00:50

"Here are some abstractions, solve the problem." The end

00:50

The entire point of domain specific languages is shutting opportunities to drop turds everywhere out

00:51

gabriel_laddel: I get your point but also, this kinda sounds to me like "don't use math symbols, write it all with the full power of english"

00:51

punkman: have you tried lisp yet?

00:51

BingoBoingo: dunno bout that; isn't it to model your problem in clear terms?

00:51

BingoBoingo: thins can all be done at the UI level

00:52

trinque: Yes, and almost always my problem is reading some fucking text

00:52

!up refferedbyloper

00:52

speak mortal!

00:52

BingoBoingo: hide it all behind Super-Meta-click and leave the rest to Congnition Stratifies(TM)

00:52

gabriel_laddel: I haven't because I don't wanna emacs

00:52

punkman: okay, okay

00:52

gabriel_laddel: No, You don't fucking make XML

00:53

punkman: so when you create a new format or something in ALGOL you have to create a new parser right?

00:53

BingoBoingo: meh, I'm done here, read more or something

00:53

punkman: and everytime this happens you need all new tooling for this new language, right?

00:54

because you can't "get at" the AST, because that isn't how people naively write parsers.

00:54

so, this doesn't happen in lisp because everything IS it's own AST, as is.

00:55

http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html#sec-6-2-1 << check the image here out

00:55

A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem ... ( http://bit.ly/1OxemzJ )

00:55

now, that AST (in blue) can be mapped, with no loss of information to the "lisp" (s-expression) under it: (/ (* (+ 3 2) 8) (* 3 (^ 3 6)))

00:56

gabriel_laddel: nice "hey look we invented lisp" at the beginning there

00:56

punkman: When you hack lisp, everything "deals in" (modifies, returns) these structures.

00:56

so you never have to write another parser

00:56

and all your tooling always works

00:57

because you can always "open up" any "structure" and are guaranteed to get more of the same i.e., lisp, i.e., sexprs

00:57

which you already speak, because you're lisping

00:58

trinque: at the beginning of (I'd assume "A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem" but don't see it there)?

00:59

gabriel_laddel: just the bit about how if we don't make all these assumptions about order of operations, and arrange things sensibly, we've got sexps

01:00

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40890 @ 0.000755 = 30.872 BTC [+] {6}

01:00

trinque: Oh.

01:00

I taught someone a bit of scheme recently (alongside SICP) and used roughly that approach.

01:00

What part of the utterance "Fuck You" is formal enough to be an sexpr

01:01

started with math, said "what if we didn't have any order of operations except those explicitly stated, and also "wtf re: infix anyway?"

01:01

student got it just fine

01:02

yeah

01:02

nothing particularly challenging about it

01:02

Human language contains ambiguities, Machine languages are formal, why try to bin them together entirely?

01:02

gabriel_laddel: not at all; they've already learned more syntax via basic algebra

01:02

good for them

01:02

BingoBoingo: not sure I hear the question

01:02

trinque: hey guess what

01:03

trinque: I got maxima loaded into my master lisp proc

01:03

neato

01:03

and figured out how to get and eval maxima ASTs

01:03

trinque: No question, FYIAD

01:04

Partially through translating the imaxima LaTeX stuff such that you can take a maxima AST, view it as LaTeX, maxima syntax or lisp all at the CLIM listener.

01:04

BingoBoingo: I would say mr gabriel_laddel has it, that all syntaxes can be done within the lisp system, and simultaneously you find that the vast majority aren't necessary

01:04

gabriel_laddel: sounds very nice

01:04

Reader macros also allow you to deal with syntax mechanically for whatever it's worth.

01:05

I've only so far written macros to deal with the hair of someone else's shit

01:05

Parse less of everything.

01:05

never found a use for them in my own code to date

01:05

trinque: reader macros or macros?

01:06

haven't used either for anything aside from regular macros to make some stumpwm config prettier

01:06

ah

01:06

and that was more or less looking for a reason

01:13

*

BingoBoingo wonders when unblemished text became the problem.

01:14

WHy do such things need parsed by machine?

01:15

no one says your qntras have to be parsable, but it might be nice if the language you configure your editor/DE/OS with is.

01:15

When did graphs in D3 become essential and not luxuries

01:16

XML syntax is a heinous misstep that affords little, demands much

01:17

<trinque> no one says your qntras have to be parsable, but it might be nice if the language you configure your editor/DE/OS with is. << And at what point should barin authored text end and machine authored text begin?

01:17

in my opinion one is a subset of the other

01:17

supposing your syntax has a "here be dragons" token

01:17

"On the historical evidence I shall be short. Carl Friedrich Gauss, the Prince of Mathematicians but also somewhat of a coward, was certainly aware of the fate of Galileo —and could probably have predicted the calumniation of Einstein— when he decided to suppress his discovery of non-Euclidean geometry, thus leaving it to Bolyai and Lobatchewsky to receive the flak. It is probably more illuminating to go a littl

01:17

e bit further back, to the Middle Ages. One of its characteristics was that 'reasoning by analogy' was rampant; another characteristic was almost total intellectual stagnation, and we now see why the two go together. A reason for mentioning this is to point out that, by developing a keen ear for unwarranted analogies, one can detect a lot of medieval thinking today." -- https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/

01:17

EWD10xx/EWD1036.html

01:17

<trinque> XML syntax is a heinous misstep that affords little, demands much << It is, and When gabriel_laddel talks massamune unfortunately I read XML or XML with paren

01:17

we shall see; guy hasn't released anything yet and signed his name thereupon

01:19

But even in LISP people there is a divide between machine language and "people" language. One can not adequately enjoy the lamentations of enemy women in machine language

01:19

I cut 3 paragraphs from that quote, which are quite relevent to this conversation.

01:19

dpaste? deedbot?

01:19

BingoBoingo: I swear to you that you can input arbitrary strings in LISP.

01:20

"here be dragons" was poetic license for that

01:20

any grammar can just say "here's the header, here's the footer, go nuts kid"

01:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtXZScvbdcs

01:20

Lil Debbie - LOFTY - Official Video - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oxipfe )

01:20

you know... like strings

01:20

trinque: lol, we understand each other. BingoBoingo doesn't though.

01:21

gabriel_laddel: But at some point people want to put arbitray string on their own.

01:21

nothing can be on its own

01:21

The point where you decide to eat javascript is the point you go coprophilliac for satan

01:22

BingoBoingo: why take my (or anyone else's) word for it, spin up an SBCL REPL.

01:22

apt-get install sbcl or whatever.

01:22

Cutting HTML, markdown, or postscript to bare text is fine. Cutting javascript to OMGWTFBBQ 3D graphs but translated is the devil incarnate.

01:23

If you catch the devil hold him close for you shall not catch him again.

01:23

are we talking about the web here?

01:23

or generally that there should be more text-only content?

01:24

I would agree that where the written word is concerned, please do not give me a single-page JS app

01:24

trinque: he is discussing nope.js, the javascript to parenscript transpiler

01:24

trinque: I am referring to the latter in reference to gabriel_laddel's assertion javascript should be parsed at all.

01:24

(partially complete)

01:24

mein gott

01:24

(it does an old version of JS)

01:24

No version of JS is acceptable

01:25

No version of postscript is acceptable either unless read with eyes and generated with TeX under careful watch with rifle at hand.

01:26

srsly gtfo

01:26

Srsly we are dealing with the devil and his works

01:26

the web still exists; gotta deal with that monstrosity somehow

01:27

I tend to lean the way deedbot.org looks

01:27

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/08/a-white-guy-named-michael-couldnt-get-his-poem-published-then-he-became-yi-fen-chou/ << "Hudson’s critics said the literary bait-and-switch was fraudulent, racist and fundamentally different from Charlotte Bronte publishing “Jane Eyre” under the name Currer Bell."

01:27

A white guy named Michael couldn’t get his poem published. Then he became Yi-Fen Chou. - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1L0tS81 )

01:27

I'm not about to feed nytimes.com into anything that would do other than discard its JS

01:27

but I've written some parenscript and it worked fine, and kept my brain from having context-switch fatigue

01:28

the languages are close enough that it's really just an alternate JS syntax; not like you're compiling haskell to JS

01:29

trinque: the web still exists; gotta deal with that monstrosity somehow << need a sane browser first, without JS. then we can start writing custom handlers for heathen websites that we are unable to view.

↖ ↖

01:29

the JS output is entirely readable

01:29

punkman: yeah well I don't start with boil the ocean

01:29

but that'd be cool.

01:29

trinque: I may be drunk so I may not have started my objections at the right place. Whatever code you privately jizz onto servers is yours. Code you try to make other people execute is a crime.

01:29

now that's a place to begin talking.

01:29

punkman: I'm liking Dillo a lot.

01:30

BingoBoingo: I would much rather download someone's signed lisp program and run that locally than have this horrible half-creature that grabs code from everywhere, tries to "sandbox" it, and runs without so much as a gpg fart in the wind

01:30

punkman: trinque: the idea here is to use nope.js on conkeror, which is written in js

01:30

trinque: Than do as I do, and don't run it.

01:31

indeed.

01:31

it does about 40% right now

01:31

needs some love

01:31

gabriel_laddel: yeah that immediately pissed me off

01:31

expected lisp in conkeror, then... sadness

01:31

scripting it with PS sucks unless it is the "base layer" of the UI

01:31

which will take some work

01:31

What is nope.js and how does it differ from mozilla pdf.js???? Why trust any javascript runtime?

01:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7170 @ 0.00075661 = 5.4249 BTC [+]

01:32

BingoBoingo: nope.js is the name of the transpiler

01:32

gabriel_laddel: well even if you can translate all the worl'ds js to lisp, I still don't want any JS

01:32

BingoBoingo: he's talking about in the sort of XUL layer, if I understand firefox

01:32

Yet you still write it in JS???

01:32

trinque: And that's a problem

01:32

punkman: there isn't really anyway out of that

01:32

unless I'm missing something big

01:32

Zool is not a container, it is another devil.

01:33

my plan is to OCR + script the fuck out of the web

01:33

we shall see how it goes

01:33

building tesseract atm

01:34

Fuck it, lets pass around javascript turds as FLAC files so we can infect our machines with cassette tapes

01:34

I'm actually on-board that hypertext shouldn't specify executable code within

01:34

I think youtube-dl has the right idea. https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl

01:34

rg3/youtube-dl · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1L0uw5t )

01:34

maybe it's got some data structure in it that has various "viewers"

01:35

trinque: presentation methods!?

01:35

gabriel_laddel: yeah that

01:35

CLIMweb when?

01:35

wtf is this hypertext

01:35

why "web"

01:35

gabriel_laddel: hypertext is a word.

01:35

just programs with networking functionality

01:35

has a very useful meaning.

01:35

what, every MMORPG is a "web" too?

01:35

no, hypertext is not that

01:35

trinque: it does?

01:36

oh stop, there were hypertext systems on general

01:36

hypertext is term of art

01:36

*genera

01:36

trinque: they didn't do *everything* correctly, but yes.

01:36

maxima has it's own syntax, for example.

01:36

point being!

01:36

but I want the AST!

01:36

this hypertext thing has massively worked out

01:36

don't be stupid and ignore that

01:36

because the browser is shit

01:37

why not use presentations?

01:37

I don't get why I need another language?

01:37

here are some objects, display them. "OK"

01:37

don't care what you use; give me a universal reference to *THAT* concept

01:37

and let me point at your concepts and make reference to them on *my* thing

01:38

in the don't-call-it-hypertext

01:38

You want Super-Meta-Click IMHO

01:38

one sec

01:38

finding link

01:38

hypertext you understand is just an extension of what writing already was.

01:39

you don't just write in isolation; you write in a vast context of interrelated concepts

01:40

so no, I don't think "run lisp program and open socket" is enough

01:40

mabye we're all running the same lisp program, but you have to have a space within which (distributed CLOS??) the thing we're doing poorly on the www can be done better

01:41

Sure, I send you a sexpr containing a program you can load.

01:41

dunno what else you could possibly want, other than sane 3D etc.

01:42

how did I know I want your program?

01:42

the "scaffolding" will evolve as you go

01:42

WoTnet.

01:42

which is composed of what structure

01:42

meaning. today I google some nonsense and google gives me my propagandized results

01:42

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267215 transpiller should totally be a word.

01:42

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:35:09; gabriel_laddel: there is a partially complete js->parenscript transpiler so that you don't have to read js

01:42

it spills trans.

01:43

<mircea_popescu> it spills trans. << I though that was called prison???

01:43

damn socialists spilling trans everywhere

01:43

trinque: so someone could write and distribute a "~google search" that looks over the CLIM streams of all GUIs it knows about.

01:44

alternatively it could be transpieler. where you play with the tran.

01:44

right, that thing is necessary

01:44

if you don't like it, well, you've got the sexprs right there

01:44

also i would like to point out that sex needs no pr.

01:44

wahaha

01:44

getting rather well known

01:44

<trinque> hypertext you understand is just an extension of what writing already was. << Seriously there is a specific harmless language or subset of language necessary for playing the presentation role. Something that by it's Phoosis can be presented safely

01:45

I see what's asked for there.

01:45

and on the other end, gabriel_laddel will tell you that's a (small) subset of his lispy metaverse

01:45

the drunk to cereal interaction is very golden.

01:45

gabriel_laddel: what of gentlemen like BingoBoingo that want to write and link things

01:46

For safety though it should not be a part of that, but merely interpreted through a progam in that

01:46

trinque: I don't see how this is a problem?

01:46

in what space do these links exist? what are they addressing? so on so on

01:46

trinque: well these are all very good questions, but that's application development.

01:46

dunno that you see or perhaps don't value the problem the web did solve

01:46

<gabriel_laddel> trinque: I don't see how this is a problem? << I am a librarian, a collector. I want to collect information without collecting a bunch of executable rat turds

01:46

seems to me you end up with another browser

01:47

<gabriel_laddel> trinque: well these are all very good questions, but that's application development. << NO, this is developing separate universes

01:47

trinque: the whole lispm is a "browser" if you go that direction with words.

01:47

"you can do anything at zombocom" is not why the web blew up

01:47

it blew up because it was absurdly simple

01:47

that browser (to me) means strictly JS+CSS+HTML

01:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267251 << moreover, if gpg messages were code rather than data i'd have gpg rewritten to a thing that keeps messages strictly as data. BingoBoingo exactly has it : there is no room nor need for every bit of text to be "really code". i want my nano to be UNABLE to do anything whatsoever with the text. which is why i use nano rather than emacs.

01:47

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:51:28; punkman: gabriel_laddel: I get your point but also, this kinda sounds to me like "don't use math symbols, write it all with the full power of english"

01:48

if i want it to be able to do things with the text, then yes i want full ast bla bla.

01:48

Executable things can go in the Lispy read, sign, check signatures, and execute world. Documents need to be in the don't give a fuck read the derp and laugh universe

01:48

mircea_popescu: you're still missing the whole "bind *real-eval* to nil" part of the discussion

01:48

<gabriel_laddel> mircea_popescu: you're still missing the whole "bind *real-eval* to nil" part of the discussion << FUCK YOU IMMA DRAGON

01:49

mircea_popescu: the people who authored CL thought of your use case.

01:49

<gabriel_laddel> mircea_popescu: the people who authored CL thought of your use case. << AND yet you Hearnia around the details

01:49

BingoBoingo: I do?

01:50

^ guy is just more interested in his lisp system than a particular app on it. I contend the mega-app on any computer now and in the future will be a hypertext system.

01:50

gabriel_laddel: The difference between what you do now and what Mike Hearn does is 2013 and 2015. Mike Hearn knew his mission was to destroy through evangalism. You may no that, you may not but that is still your net effect.

01:50

because that's what language always was

01:50

I fucking write "apps" for it now, for money.

01:50

it isnt' a big deal

01:50

just do it

01:51

For a while I did girls for money, was a huge hassel, not worth it, because the girls were huge. Giggolo is a dead end.

01:51

lol

01:52

Seriously are we channeling Nike shoe slogans here, Just do it?

01:52

AND I am the one using ambiguous metaphores???

01:52

a safe hypertext system could easily be tossing sepxrs over the wire with *no* code, just piles of data

01:52

"[Damon] Wayans defended [Bill] Cosby. Among his comments: “I don’t believe he was raping. I think he was in relationships with all of them.” “If you listen to them talk, they go: ‘Well, the first time.’ The first time? Bitch, how many times did it happen?”

01:52

“Some of them, really, is un-rapeable. I look at them and go, ‘No, you don’t want that.'” “If it was my daughter, then I would have killed Bill Cosby. But sitting back looking at it, I think it’s a money hustle.”

01:52

various presentations for various kinds of data yes, one of them a link

01:53

gabriel_laddel re "bind *real-eval* to nil" meh. this works in the same sense "provable code" works. in academia.

01:53

you won't have a leakless pipe, ever.

01:53

mircea_popescu: well by that token, the same stands for nano

01:53

mno.

01:53

nano isn't a pipe.

01:53

and if it is fouind behaving like a pipe it gets shot in the head.

01:54

whereas your thing is only maybe shot in the head if found leaking.

01:54

very different standards these.

01:54

how many LoC is nano?

01:54

vs. SBCL?

01:54

SBCL is 400k

01:54

or thereabouts

01:54

;;google how many loc is nano

01:54

Microservices? What about Nanoservices? - InfoQ: <http://www.infoq.com/news/2014/05/nano-services>; Nanotron Technologies GmbH - Transceivers: <http://nanotron.com/EN/PR_ic_modules.php>; Máy lọc nước Nano, Nhập khẩu Nhật Bản 100% chính hãng ...: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkL5PSjMkdg>

01:54

heh. google is so useful seriously.

01:54

no wonder they stopped working on search to develop... what the fuck is it they do these days again ?

01:55

surveillance apparatus as far as I can tell

01:55

self driving cars

01:55

o that

01:55

I count that under "ad company"

01:55

as in, google does self-driving cars and definitely not surveillance

01:55

though I guess that's getting them into the assassination gig

01:56

google mostly creates 'services' for 'free', undermines field, then mothballs and leaves a competitive void

01:56

gabriel_laddel: if I don't know you, I may still want to listen to you for a moment, to see what you're about

01:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00075661 = 8.6254 BTC [+]

01:56

trinque: ?

01:56

why should I have to run a program *of yours* at all to get certain information from you?

01:57

you shouldn't.

01:57

I am trying to make a point of BingoBoingo's lamentations

01:57

<gabriel_laddel> how many LoC is nano? << a large portion is what those LOC do

01:57

holy fuck, bind *read-eval* to nil

01:57

then read in the string

01:57

the end

01:57

"Do I like this string, would I like more from the identity that produced it?"

01:57

and airgap

01:57

dunno what I'm missing here

01:58

<trinque> I am trying to make a point of BingoBoingo's lamentations << I grad school I was in serious discussions where we lamented fiber optic was not used for project film over hundreds of miles.

01:58

<gabriel_laddel> dunno what I'm missing here << All of the shit you want to hinge on this

01:58

*

gabriel_laddel will find nano LoC stats *after* I find the quote I am looking for.

01:59

Right now we plainly live on C machines.

01:59

anyhow, I have made myself sleepy. I think most here would be satisfied with a simple hypertext system to replace the JS monstrosity of today.

01:59

<trinque> anyhow, I have made myself sleepy. I think most here would be satisfied with a simple hypertext system to replace the JS monstrosity of today. << Gopher is beautiful

01:59

and that I can see is readily built on a proper lisp system

01:59

BingoBoingo: yeah I recall it

02:00

strict about the URL structure or w/e it was, isn't it?

02:00

has some concept of menu

02:00

*

trinque looks

02:00

Very strict

02:02

the lulz being that ubuntu gedit goes "do you want this file displayed or executed ?"

02:02

this should never be a possible question.

02:02

Seriously

02:02

and no, it's not ok to take the windows route and just execute everything.

02:03

I have not seen a graphical WWW browser other than Dillo that does not execute any documents.

02:03

links

02:03

and, of course, curl. that golden standard of all browsers

02:03

FOR THIS REASON

02:04

Links, lynx, and curl sure, but still how much ought these be trusted??? WIth their stinky libjpeg

02:04

neither displays jpegs anyway

02:04

trinque: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/XpvUwF2xKbk/Xz4Mww0ZwLIJ

02:04

... ( http://bit.ly/1NoVPZc )

02:05

^ quote I was looking for

02:06

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-upkJ-O10HnE/UDVo-nADThI/AAAAAAAAITk/PPcqRRrAY_U/w800-h800/photo.jpg << dilbert on google. apt.

02:06

... ( http://bit.ly/1NoVUMg )

02:07

ok this just beats all.

02:08

http://dpaste.com/198EDMN

02:08

dpaste: 198EDMN ... ( http://bit.ly/1JS50ep )

02:08

mircea_popescu: Links displays images, Lynx is the one that doesn't

02:09

lolol and a facebook link

02:09

"angela", stop being a derp, we need chinese speakers for better jobs than mashing hands on keyboards to produce email addresses.

02:09

saddest waste of a log reading ever i swear.

02:09

"Singyue star, china". you know, like "rome, wisconsin".

02:10

Prolly less Obesity at least

02:10

i'd expect.

02:10

Hard to get fat on plastic

02:11

i think the rice was paper now

02:11

gabriel_laddel: how do I refer to your CLOS object which represents a paper you have written? I would like to direct people to it from my CLOS object representing a blog post.

02:11

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28700 @ 0.0007479 = 21.4647 BTC [-] {4}

02:11

this the web has, and it is why it blew up.

02:11

pete_dushenski: Nah, Chicoms are mixing US corn with polymer to make rice now. Cheapest option

02:12

trinque: you call a program to display my paper?

02:12

sorry, are you asking what the UI should look like?

02:12

no.

02:12

or do you want a spec for how the "dispatch" occurs?

02:12

How does the flow look like

02:12

BingoBoingo: corn, obv. and paper too ! http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-09-2015#1265384

02:12

Logged on 07-09-2015 17:43:24; fluffypony: damn the Chinese are getting desperate for profit: http://shanghaiist.com/2015/09/06/fake_paper_rice.php

02:13

pete_dushenski: Ah, sorry. People make paper for cigarettes out of rice starch.

02:13

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267299 << there is incidentally a very fine use for macros : where you're playing eulora.

02:13

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:05:13; trinque: I've only so far written macros to deal with the hair of someone else's shit

02:13

...

02:14

which is directly that, hair on someone else's shit (aka game server)

02:14

except deliberately so.

02:14

trinque: Right now I can press C-t m, pull up a "map" of all "research nodes" and "lessons" and right click to get a menu from which I can run the associated program.

02:14

yep, that's sort of how I see them; this interface is butts, I would like to pretend it is not

02:14

(ie, that's the point of a game in the general sense : to not let you solve problems the obvious way. (which in this context would just be skill++ or something equivalent))

02:14

gabriel_laddel: you will not have the whole internet on one machine!

02:14

what is the addressing mechanism for a world of clos objects?

02:15

trinque: PGP identity with a list of programs to run.

02:15

I want to make reference to your information, not host it

02:15

no, not enough

02:15

I don't see how you'll be able to reference things on WoTnet further than "the joe I know with this pub key"

02:16

or "here are the sources"

02:16

how about http://trilema.com/2015/the-importance-of-backups-from-the-other-side/#selection-41.0-41.15

02:16

The importance of backups, from the other side. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1NoWpGf )

02:16

that's reference enough

02:16

mircea_popescu: indeed! I don't think gabriel_laddel sees what hypertext is

02:17

<gabriel_laddel> I don't see how you'll be able to reference things on WoTnet further than "the joe I know with this pub key" << Publication. Paper and film only have the problem that they are slow and take too much volume for their information density. Why should machines not offer a path at least as safe.

02:17

tbh this extended hypertext thing i got on trilema kicks all imaginable butt

02:17

50 times a day i go for it on random sites and they're too web 0.5 for it

02:17

yep, and I wanna poke someone's data set with something that specific

02:18

gabriel_laddel has a CLOS object which represents his number of slithey toves

02:18

and I want to make reference to that, not copy it

02:19

trinque: you can only make a reference with 'respect to me'

02:19

using whatever criteria you'd like

02:19

nano sources: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 21,577

02:19

no that sucks

02:19

www wins still.

02:19

trinque: this is how URLs work already.

02:19

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Reddragon.jpg/464px-Reddragon.jpg

ah well elaborate then

02:19

FUIAD

02:19

... ( http://bit.ly/1NoWz0n )

02:19

define "with respect to me"

02:20

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/William_Blake_003.jpg/487px-William_Blake_003.jpg

gabriel_laddel: so you have your own addressing scheme

02:20

FUIAD

02:20

... ( http://bit.ly/1NoWwS9 )

02:20

www also worked because HTTP

02:20

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Blakebeast1bg.jpg/536px-Blakebeast1bg.jpg

not your particular way of addressing things per server

02:20

AndTheBeastFromT

02:20

... ( http://bit.ly/1NoWA4j )

02:22

trinque: I have a listing of programs associated with my PGP identity, you can make references to them, and people will be able to see them (or not) based on my trust relationship with them. Your "references" can be any arbitary computation, buut probably some standards will evolve (e.g., we don't check sexprs who pass some test of being a plist of the structure (:name ... :version ...)).

02:22

where :name names the program, :version, the version

02:23

it will evolve out of whatever the "networking" substrate ends up being and tbh, I don't see what the big deal is?

02:23

none of this is hard to code - you hack around until something "clicks"

02:23

<gabriel_laddel> trinque: I have a listing of programs associated with my PGP identity, you can make references to them, and people will be able to see them (or not) based on my trust relationship with them... << It is essential for WoT to exist that I can safely point at the enemy's words and bury them in sulfur

02:24

BingoBoingo: yep.

02:24

"I don't want to see people who cite XYZ"

02:24

because morons.

02:24

But that means their publication MUST BE safe, crippled, non-executable characters

02:25

BingoBoingo: bind real eval to nil

02:25

<gabriel_laddel> "I don't want to see people who cite XYZ" << No who cites XYZ is how you make rope to hang

02:25

whatever, the point is that the structure is available for me to make arbitrary computations against

02:25

you can hang whoever

02:26

<gabriel_laddel> nano sources: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 21,577 << win. srsly.

02:26

mircea_popescu: fuck you and your intuition about things

02:26

;)

02:26

lol

02:26

this whole email thing is a turd

02:26

spamassassin raping my VPS

02:26

it is a shade better than just intuition :)

02:27

<gabriel_laddel> whatever, the point is that the structure is available for me to make arbitrary computations against << FYIAD, I don't need structure: I eat, hang, and burn

02:27

;; ud FYIAD

02:27

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FYIAD | Aug 26, 2007 ... Top Definition. FYIAD. Fuck You, I'm A Dragon Originated in some lame back-and -forth furry argument, but when you think about it, it's a good ...

02:27

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu

02:27

Project Xanadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1NoWQAi )

02:27

<trinque> spamassassin raping my VPS << I don't find email important enough to not outsource

02:27

punkman: yeah, several people have dropped that link on me

02:28

required reading for anyone dabbling in hypertext

02:30

For the record this is the original and only meaningful spec for hypertext, predates LISP by two decades https://archive.is/ezrwO

02:30

As We May Think - Vannevar Bush - The Atlantic ... ( http://bit.ly/1JS7kSD )

02:31

gabriel_laddel: yeah, don't be ted nelson :P

02:33

gabriel_laddel: are you running Masamune in production?

02:33

"production"?

02:33

ben_vulpes: something like that

02:33

How can one even pretend to have a hypertext spec or its substitute without citing <em>Vannevar Bush</em>

02:34

ben_vulpes: I did the project, they thought it had "too many options" so I'm cutting some out

02:34

ben_vulpes: I should actually be cutting out options right now, but I'm instead drinking and browsing the net

02:34

how's masamune progressing?

02:34

ben_vulpes: slowly

02:34

ben_vulpes: you can use it iff you follow the guide

02:35

ben_vulpes: but goddamnit I need interns. I got maxima loaded into my master lisp proc over the weekend and I'm going to play around with that whenever I have free time.

02:35

ah nifty.

02:36

what does 'master lisp proc' mean in this context? the lisp image you run continuously?

02:36

yeah

02:36

so I have CLIM etc

02:36

for those of you who have not seen femlisp, MGL-MAT and MJR_CALC, the full nifty of this might not be readily apparent.

02:36

all loaded in the same proc, all with access to BLAS, CUDA etc.

02:38

<gabriel_laddel> none of this is hard to code - you hack around until something "clicks" << this ftr is philosophically wrong. in that it reduces to the exact opposite of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=30-07-2015#1217312

02:38

Logged on 30-07-2015 01:39:10; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-07-2015#1217142 << doesn't have to be a one size fits all. but if your software can't be built, your software doesn't exist. and it is still upon you to explain how you expect users to use your thing - nobody is going to go do the guesswork of "what the author might have meant", and ESPECIALLY no sane person should ever guess what "obvious" means for anyone else

02:38

BingoBoingo: I'm about ready to pull the plug on this server and give all smtp over to the enemy

02:38

esp the "no sane person should ever guess what "obvious" means for anyone else." part.

02:39

trinque: what's happening to your smtp holes?

02:39

trinque: Fastmail.fm isn't the shittiest. Can't really endorse any email provider, but they are the least condemned as far as I know.

02:40

ben_vulpes: cron job doing sa-learn on incoming spam is choking the box; while moving I have IRC up there instead of at home, proving... laggy

02:40

wait, what happened to tls cutting all of your spam to nil?

02:40

the turdatron

02:40

"femlisp" ? women in tech ?~!

02:40

ahyu

02:40

"Professionally our methods of transmitting and reviewing the results of research are generations old and by now are totally inadequate for their purpose. If the aggregate time spent in writing scholarly works and in reading them could be evaluated, the ratio between these amounts of time might well be startling. Those who conscientiously attempt to keep abreast of current thought, even in restricted fields, by close and continuou

02:40

s reading might well shy away from an examination calculated to show how much of the previous month's efforts could be produced on call. Mendel's concept of the laws of genetics was lost to the world for a generation because his publication did not reach the few who were capable of grasping and extending it; and this sort of catastrophe is undoubtedly being repeated all about us, as truly significant attainments become lost in the

02:40

mass of the inconsequential." << Critical application of actual hypertext

02:41

I give up; google owns mail

02:41

trinque: Nah Opera/Fastmail beats the shit out of Google

02:41

herr mircea_popescu has as well, you're in good company

02:41

ben_vulpes let it be noted that i had no problem witgh spam, in spuite of not using google.

02:41

so I run my own mailserver, and I get what

02:41

my problem is that middlemen are broken

02:42

what's your spamsolution, mircea_popescu?

02:42

I get a terrible hobby.

02:42

heh.

02:42

Especially relevant for gabriel_laddel: "Babbage, even with remarkably generous support for his time, could not produce his great arithmetical machine. His idea was sound enough, but construction and maintenance costs were then too heavy. Had a Pharaoh been given detailed and explicit designs of an automobile, and had he understood them completely, it would have taxed the resources of his kingdom to have fashioned the thousands of

02:42

parts for a single car, and that car would have broken down on the first trip to Giza."

02:43

my spamsolution is that all incoming from emails i never sent to is autodropped.

02:43

silentily.

02:43

works splendidly, too.

02:43

hm

02:44

brb scouting pillage and jools

02:44

occasionally i fish through the mire, as a curiosity thing. but it's quite different

02:45

ie, the "bayesian" twerps have it all wrong. it's dumbass to try and protect an inbox with regexp, and especially their halfbaked regexp based ai

02:45

however, it's fun to fish in a swamp with regexp. when you feel so inclined.

02:47

youtube-dl?

02:48

because vlc is too hard?

02:48

<ben_vulpes> youtube-dl? << Or save-as

02:48

ben_vulpes: same idea, does vlc support as many sources though?

02:49

save-as doesn't work

02:49

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267314 << for the record, ascribing purpose to phenomena is basically animism 2.0, and just as medieval as the other thing. for all you know gauss was not "a bit of a coward", and your p[rojection into the future whebn discussing einstein more indicative of an anachronistic mind than some sort of valuable intuition. for all you know gauss just didn't think the idiots arou

02:49

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:17:33; gabriel_laddel: "On the historical evidence I shall be short. Carl Friedrich Gauss, the Prince of Mathematicians but also somewhat of a coward, was certainly aware of the fate of Galileo —and could probably have predicted the calumniation of Einstein— when he decided to suppress his discovery of non-Euclidean geometry, thus leaving it to Bolyai and Lobatchewsky to receive the flak. It is probably more illuminati

02:49

nd him were worthy of being told about it. for all you know the notions of "progress and science" incumbent in the perspective you propose are so much masturbatory jizz, and in point of fact intelligent people share their thoughts exactly like a comedian shares his routine : to friends, in a social environment, for the same reasons in the same ways.

02:49

<punkman> ben_vulpes: same idea, does vlc support as many sources though? << VLC, Parole, pretty much eveything works

02:49

except x.265

02:49

"the prince of mathematicians" in-fucking-deed.

02:49

<punkman> save-as doesn't work << If it doesn't the problem is higher up your toolchain

02:51

mircea_popescu: http://www.femlisp.org/

02:51

FEMLISP Homepage ... ( http://bit.ly/1JS9WA3 )

02:51

i r disappoint.

02:51

BingoBoingo: ok, how do I save-as on vimeo?

02:52

"this femlisp privileges useful work and meaningful abstractions over other verbiage that is a lot more important to us"

02:52

~luce irigaray.

02:53

punkman generally you need a decent video driver, something that does the equivalent of "print to file"

02:54

if you get it to run under x it's a lot easier.

02:54

I assumed "save-as" meant a button already in my browser

02:55

oh.

02:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63100 @ 0.00075033 = 47.3458 BTC [+] {3}

02:55

the only way such a thing will be published will be under a tmsr license. for obvious reasons.

02:55

the save-as button I have, does work in many occasions. but mostly doesn't

02:55

mircea_popescu: as for that quote, agreed - I should have quoted 3 paragraphs up.

02:56

mircea_popescu: and wrt "hacking around until something clicks", this is the only way I know how to work on UIs and other 'finicky' programs? You certainly don't distribute this to friends who don't program.

02:57

so, for example, the notion of references on a CLIMweb running on a WoTnet

02:57

i still manage to distribute trilema to people who don't program

02:57

note that im not saying this is a good idea. i'm entirely unconvinced at the moment. but still, fwiw, iwii.

02:58

sure, but you rewrite sentences several times before you distribute.

02:58

that, i do not.

02:58

oh right, I knew that

02:58

i would estimate less than 1% of trilema words were ever rewritten. it's pretty much first pass.

02:59

thestringpuller

i read an article that F. Scott Fitzgerald used to revise for years after his first draft...

02:59

flaubert is famous for having declaredly spent weeks trying to decide on a temperature value in cote de chez swann

02:59

iirc he settled oin 29 in the end

03:00

> femlisp

03:00

whoa

03:01

ben_vulpes: http://www.mitchr.me/SS/mjrcalc/

03:01

... ( http://bit.ly/1L0DvDQ )

03:02

no stop i have to go do things to a girl

03:02

*

mircea_popescu is kind-of nonplussed nobody called him on the misattribution of proust's work. but anyway, twas "Bouvard et Pécuchet", and the dilemma was 30 or 34, and he settled on 30. you people need to read more literature.

03:03

lol

03:03

ben_vulpes: ftr, MJR_CALC compiles without any work on my part aside from

03:03

(let* ((mjrcalc-path (qlpp "/lispy/")))

03:03

(load (merge-pathnames mjrcalc-path "lib-meta.lisp"))

03:03

(eval (read-from-string "(mjr_meta::mjr_meta_load-packages :BASE-PATH \"~/quicklisp/local-projects/lispy/\")"))

03:03

(eval (read-from-string "(mjr_meta::mjr_meta_use-packages :BASE-PATH \"~/quicklisp/local-projects/lispy/\")")))

03:03

*

pete_dushenski goes to read more literature. gnite !

03:04

Completing the above thought (CLIMweb) : there are two obvious categories of references, those that contain (backup) the reference and those that do not. Those that do not should be of one of two types - an identifier coupled with an identity, which you can use to lookup in the WoT you can "see" and "speculative" references, e.g., some arbitary computation.

03:05

Now, I don't *know* exactly what particular sexpr will 'click' for my program, so I'll write a few versions, find something I like and then distribute it.

03:09

<punkman> I assumed "save-as" meant a button already in my browser << Of all things Chromium on OpenBSd has this along with most other browsers

03:13

<gabriel_laddel> (let* ((mjrcalc-path (qlpp "/lispy/")))... << How exactly to we trust this far before hardware?

03:17

Pretending to thing that do not yet exist is the definition of "terminal psychosis"

03:19

!up Vexual

03:19

meta tiem

03:20

notrlly

03:25

!s trippy

03:25

18 results for 'trippy' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=trippy

03:36

;;later tell gabriel_laddel Seriously read the Vannevar Bush paper. You are solving too many problems with too few tools. Classic circular saw/Hammer problem.

03:36

The operation succeeded.

03:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUge-brzn94

03:47

"Let us project this trend ahead to a logical, if not inevitable, outcome. The camera hound of the future wears on his forehead a lump a little larger than a walnut. It takes pictures 3 millimeters square, later to be projected or enlarged, which after all involves only a factor of 10 beyond present practice. The lens is of universal focus, down to any distance accommodated by the unaided eye, simply because it is of short focal l

03:47

ength. There is a built-in photocell on the walnut such as we now have on at least one camera, which automatically adjusts exposure for a wide range of illumination. There is film in the walnut for a hundred exposures, and the spring for operating its shutter and shifting its film is wound once for all when the film clip is inserted. It produces its result in full color. It may well be stereoscopic, and record with two spaced glas

03:47

s eyes, for striking improvements in stereoscopic technique are just around the corner." << This was Vannevar's design

03:49

Laser printers etc. "Another process now in use is also slow, and more or less clumsy. For fifty years impregnated papers have been used which turn dark at every point where an electrical contact touches them, by reason of the chemical change thus produced in an iodine compound included in the paper. They have been used to make records, for a pointer moving across them can leave a trail behind. If the electrical potential on the p

03:49

ointer is varied as it moves, the line becomes light or dark in accordance with the potential." << Are we getting spooked yet?

03:58

OLEDs how do they work? "Use chemically treated film in place of the glowing screen, allow the apparatus to transmit one picture only rather than a succession, and a rapid camera for dry photography results."

04:06

Also actual computers, a rarity: "With machines for advanced analysis no such situation existed; for there was and is no extensive market; the users of advanced methods of manipulating data are a very small part of the population. There are, however, machines for solving differential equationsand functional and integral equations, for that matter. There are many special machines, such as the harmonic synthesizer which predicts

04:06

the tides. There will be many more, appearing certainly first in the hands of the scientist and in small numbers."

04:14

;;google memex

04:14

Memex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memex>; Memex – DARPA's search engine for the Dark Web | Naked Security: <https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/02/16/memex-darpas-search-engine-for-the-dark-web/>; Memex In Action: Watch DARPA Artificial Intelligence Search For ...: <http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/04/10/darpa-memex-search- (1 more message)

04:14

*

BingoBoingo done spamming, brb sleep

~ 17 minutes ~

04:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00074639 = 11.6064 BTC [-] {3}

04:40

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267355 << i must confess i am very much enamoured with the idea of a b-a web browser.

04:40

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:29:01; punkman: trinque: the web still exists; gotta deal with that monstrosity somehow << need a sane browser first, without JS. then we can start writing custom handlers for heathen websites that we are unable to view.

04:40

making a SECURE browser would kick so much ass... and it is not actually THAT hard. not in the sense that it's not hard, but in the sense that we have an IMMENSE advantage over everyone else, from mozilla to who have you, in the "piss on the world and light it on fire" doctrine.

04:42

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267362 << word. so very much word!

04:42

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:30:29; trinque: BingoBoingo: I would much rather download someone's signed lisp program and run that locally than have this horrible half-creature that grabs code from everywhere, tries to "sandbox" it, and runs without so much as a gpg fart in the wind

04:44

mircea_popescu: oh man browsers still can't render the same thing properly :o

04:44

they never will. the browser process as it exists is almost an exact mirror of the us "democracy" electroal process.

04:44

it will converge to sense. eventually. in the year 72015.

04:45

(in the year 72015 in the sense that it can be mathematially proven it won't happen before. but who knows, maybe after. patience little wanobi!)

04:45

:D

04:47

chrome runs it okay, but its filled with goog data plugs; got to spend 40mins just to do a "sane" config. Firefox somehow got stuck in 2010. And IE just gets stuck eats all memory and crashes with OOM

04:48

hm.

04:48

the typical stuff when doing "webapps"

04:48

maybe this is retarded, but, wouldn't you be better off adding a slight delay, converting to something like gifv on the fly and relying on html5 ?

04:51

getting everything rendered server-side would probably help

04:51

but not worth it at all

04:51

use plain html5, render stuff on the fly

04:51

*

mircea_popescu is clueless re web video etc.

04:52

it's pretty meh, video is solved with flash and rtmp. the other interface "eye-candy" and functionality is what bogs most of it down

04:53

web video as in the new mp4 and webrtc is pretty much useless for low-latency video streaming

04:53

flash doesn't belong in sane browser though

04:53

punkman: it doesn't but it's a bussiness pick

04:54

RTMP has a lot of hardware support[switchers, video compositing, streaming tools, relays;etc] and most video producers just use that

04:55

now adobe has some sort of patent on RTMP

04:56

so most browsers implement webrtc; you have to rely on 3rd party video players(like vlc) or flash to decode and render the content

04:56

you could also try HLS from apple for some decent compatibilty and just delivering mp4 parts by HTTP

04:57

but it's a straight up 2s->5s delay for everything

04:59

which users absolutely hate in the context of live video chat

04:59

a shitfuckstack

05:01

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sagq3V5K_CA

05:01

Reggie Watts - Fuck Shit Stack - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1UGlbR5 )

05:01

punkman: exactly :P

~ 1 hours 27 minutes ~

06:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18298 @ 0.0007484 = 13.6942 BTC [+]

06:39

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23612 @ 0.00075251 = 17.7683 BTC [+]

06:46

;;ticker

06:46

Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 239.06, Best ask: 239.1, Bid-ask spread: 0.04000, Last trade: 239.06, 24 hour volume: 14672.0436584, 24 hour low: 239.23, 24 hour high: 246.52, 24 hour vwap: None

06:49

http://thenextweb.com/us/2015/09/09/john-mcafee-might-run-for-president/ <<< Wait until he gets pilled up on Xanax again and starts firing missiles at Belize.

06:49

John McAfee might run for president ... ( http://bit.ly/1EOcS4a )

~ 32 minutes ~

07:21

shinohai: belize is so screwed :))

07:26

we should xt mcafee

07:26

more cheaper missiles.

07:29

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14100 @ 0.0007484 = 10.5524 BTC [-]

07:34

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267211 << there is unlikely more than a GB or two worth preserving, period.

07:34

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:33:59; gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: because there is a lot of information that needs to be sucked out of the web, and having a 'sharp' blade with which to do this will be quite valuable moving forwards.

07:37

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267210 << strictly when not hungry

07:37

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:33:11; pete_dushenski: though i have to say, asciilifeform, for a starved man, you think mighty clearly.

07:38

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267099 < dunno if magical, but still runs.

07:38

Logged on 09-09-2015 02:31:21; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking of this, does kakobrekla's magical car still run ?

07:39

kakobrekla: neato

07:39

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267236 << the path to fits-in-head STRICTLY depends on every particular thing on the machine being implemented ONCE. this includes lexer, parser, related items.

07:39

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:45:27; punkman: and what's wrong with notation/dsl/mini-languages?

07:41

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267274 << gabriel_laddel: you are speaking mostly to folks who haven't grasped lisp. sorta like showing a modern army base to medieval commander - he will not be able to see past it being 'a terrible castle, where the fuck are the walls and moats'

07:41

Logged on 09-09-2015 04:57:07; gabriel_laddel: because you can always "open up" any "structure" and are guaranteed to get more of the same i.e., lisp, i.e., sexprs

07:42

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267296 << this.

07:42

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:04:15; trinque: BingoBoingo: I would say mr gabriel_laddel has it, that all syntaxes can be done within the lisp system, and simultaneously you find that the vast majority aren't necessary

07:43

most of the 'small languages' on a unix box are 'glue'. you don't need glue on a sane computer.

07:43

just as properly made furniture does not contain glue.

07:46

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267350 << mega-l0l! can't wait for arbitrarily more of this!

07:46

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:27:16; pete_dushenski: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/08/a-white-guy-named-michael-couldnt-get-his-poem-published-then-he-became-yi-fen-chou/ << "Hudson’s critics said the literary bait-and-switch was fraudulent, racist and fundamentally different from Charlotte Bronte publishing “Jane Eyre” under the name Currer Bell."

07:47

@ asciilifeform is your node back up and running? One I was connected to is down :/

07:47

shinohai: zoolag is running

07:47

ip ?

07:47

same as before

07:47

!s zoolag

07:47

47 results for 'zoolag' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=zoolag

07:47

thx

07:49

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267355 << what is 'sane browser' ? if it is simply 'loads text', then mircea_popescu has it, run 'curl' ! but noooooo, you wanna read new york birdcage liner, aha ? then you're stuck with the shit soup, sorry.

07:49

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:29:01; punkman: trinque: the web still exists; gotta deal with that monstrosity somehow << need a sane browser first, without JS. then we can start writing custom handlers for heathen websites that we are unable to view.

07:49

So close to full sync

07:50

btw iirc today is tx spam day ?

07:50

a good bit of the 'modern' www has dynamically loaded text, even, just as a pill against folks using lynx etc

07:50

or tomorrow

07:50

kakobrekla: if it's today, the spamatron must be clogged

07:50

kakobrekla: 'cause i'm not seeing it.

07:50

let see

07:54

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267483 << mircea_popescu: actually this is an order of magnitude tighter guarantee than ANYTHING pertaining to 'nano' or other c crapolade presently in use on your machine.

07:54

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:53:02; mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel re "bind *real-eval* to nil" meh. this works in the same sense "provable code" works. in academia.

07:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267484 << this is an uncommonly poor analogy, considering that even the humble world of physical pipes is full of pipes which do not leak. trivially, e.g., a rifle barrel

07:55

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:53:08; mircea_popescu: you won't have a leakless pipe, ever.

07:56

yes, bury it in the forest for 80 years and perhaps it will leak.

07:58

but engineering is fundamentally about ~known~ constraints. and this can be achieved in, e.g., cpu design, and the whole motherfucking system, there is no magic here. microshit's greatest crime is teaching three generations of people that it ~is~ somehow magic, and unachievable. this is a crock of shit.

07:58

even ~actual~ cosmic rays can be dealt with. we know how.

08:00

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267505 << like a dung beetle, google does not devour anything valuable to you and i. the only possible exception might be the usenet archive

08:00

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:56:14; pete_dushenski: google mostly creates 'services' for 'free', undermines field, then mothballs and leaves a competitive void

08:00

but in the case of the latter ('dejanews') there never WAS any competition

08:00

they purchased and rebranded THE monopoly.

08:02

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48836 @ 0.00074457 = 36.3618 BTC [-] {6}

08:02

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267519 << the great inventor wheatstone wanted to build a telephone grid! but, of course, using vibrating piano wire. how else.

08:02

Logged on 09-09-2015 05:58:00; BingoBoingo: <trinque> I am trying to make a point of BingoBoingo's lamentations << I grad school I was in serious discussions where we lamented fiber optic was not used for project film over hundreds of miles.

08:03

iirc he was the first man to conceive the words 'telephone' and 'microphone'

08:03

(and a thousand other now-ubiquitous concepts)

08:04

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267551 << for what, exactly ? and did the asteroid hit, or what, is there a shortage of cn speakers now?

08:04

Logged on 09-09-2015 06:09:10; mircea_popescu: "angela", stop being a derp, we need chinese speakers for better jobs than mashing hands on keyboards to produce email addresses.

08:04

Zoolag: trying connection 195.211.154.159:8333 lastseen=-372722.3hrs lasttry=-400500.1hrs

08:04

connect() failed after select(): Connection refused

08:05

shinohai: that ain't zoolag

08:06

My bad.

08:07

I changed the ip in my alias, dunno why it is still connecting there

08:07

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267570 << this kind of 'macro' has precisely as much to do with lisp macros as microshit excel macros do. which is to say, NOTHING AT ALL. they are as closely related as cat is to chair - both have four legs, that's it

08:07

Logged on 09-09-2015 06:13:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267299 << there is incidentally a very fine use for macros : where you're playing eulora.

08:08

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267625 << WTF why not counting libc !!!!

↖ ↖

08:08

Logged on 09-09-2015 06:26:09; mircea_popescu: <gabriel_laddel> nano sources: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 21,577 << win. srsly.

08:08

count libc !!!

08:10

btw, 'nano' is titanically bloated - see, http://www.nano-editor.org/dist/v2.2/faq.html#3.6

08:10

The GNU nano editor FAQ ... ( http://bit.ly/1Npr2LL )

08:11

and ftr i fucking HATE nano. it SHITS SPURIOUS LINEFEEDS into pasted text !!

08:11

if i want a line feed, i will PRESS THE FUCKING HUGE KEY ON MY KBD WITH THE ARROW ON IT

08:12

http://www.nano-editor.org/dist/v2.2/BUGS << list of selected cockroaches removed from the kitchen.

08:12

... ( http://bit.ly/1NprkCl )

08:12

which must be oh-so-clean for their removal, aha.

08:13

items like 'nano' is precisely how the unix crud remained dominant among thinking people for as long as it did. it has a clean coat on the outside, and presents the illusion of hygiene, for so long as you do not care to look inside. in EXACTLY the same way as a coffin hides the decay of a corpse.

08:14

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00074276 = 4.9765 BTC [-]

08:14

in case anyone forgot, here's gnu diff: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-08-2015#1246256

08:14

Logged on 20-08-2015 23:00:38; ascii_field: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/diffutils.git/tree/src/dir.c

08:14

try and sit down and read that.

08:14

without barfing.

08:15

and it doesn't even have user-interaction, like text editor !

08:16

'nano' is NOT 'clean'.

08:17

which is why there is not the option of living on a farm in the countryside. you ARE in a city, and the choice is between mexico city and tokyo. i'll take tokyo^H^H^H^Hemacs tyvm.

08:18

(but if you ~really~ like the farm, try 'ed'...)

08:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267652 << do you ever, when driving car, think 'i need to harness more horses to this' ?

08:20

Logged on 09-09-2015 06:35:19; gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: but goddamnit I need interns. I got maxima loaded into my master lisp proc over the weekend and I'm going to play around with that whenever I have free time.

08:20

if your project demands human compilers, your project is retarded.

08:21

no exceptions.

08:21

programming a computer is not building pyramid, there is no legitimate role for brute muscle.

08:22

making use of brutes, in whatever capacity, is how we ended up buried in the pile of shit in which we sit.

08:24

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-09-2015#1267674 << the way this works is that google silently drops messages not coming from 1) itself 2) 'blessed' usg-megacorp entities

08:24

Logged on 09-09-2015 06:41:27; BingoBoingo: trinque: Nah Opera/Fastmail beats the shit out of Google

08:24