11:05 |
phf |
aww yeah, congratulations signpost |
| |
~ 2 hours 59 minutes ~ |
14:05 |
signpost |
thanks y'all. |
| |
~ 44 minutes ~ |
14:49 |
* |
asciilifeform meanwhile tried to embed a simple utf8ism in 'data types' section to illustrate 'UString'; thought '2min job', ended up in astonishing hell of 'latex w/ other than latin? lol. and here are over9000 piles of kludge which dunwork' |
14:51 |
asciilifeform |
latest loldiscovery is that the macros '\begin{htmlonly}'/'\end{htmlonly}' in hevea (to fence off a kludge that only needed for html output from proper latex) dun actually work ~at all~ (at least on asciilifeform's install). |
14:52 |
asciilifeform |
( on actual latex apparently ~can~ insert orcograms with a lolkludge using ancient ibm encodings -- but hevea in fact eats utf. ) |
14:58 |
phf |
asciilifeform, tex can't utf, so any language extension like latex requires cludges. there's over9000 of those, but if you "just want to"™ then you can easily use any of the alternative tex engines, built with latex extension. probably out of the box you'll have xelatex or lualatex. both talk utf native |
15:00 |
phf |
xetex and luatex pass triptest and are tex for all practical purposes (hence legally have "tex" in name), but are otherwise built with gigabytes of liquishit required to support "modern" environment |
15:08 |
phf |
(and in before "it dun work!11", both of the engines, like all tex, use computer modern by default, so your extra unicode characters won't appear, since they are not in comuter modern. you can select whatever alternative font, including your system fonts, using https://ctan.org/pkg/fontspec) |
15:10 |
phf |
(and in before "i'm asciilifeform and everything is shit" here's the minimal latex document that compiles with xelatex on my system http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=k7Y8 ) |
15:21 |
phf |
also, i don't know what you're smoking, but this works for me, re htmlonly, http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=dtpv |
| |
~ 2 hours 22 minutes ~ |
17:44 |
* |
asciilifeform after posting earlier, turned up some of the items phf mentioned, still fiddling; likely botched sumthing in own setup |
17:48 |
asciilifeform |
tried 'luatex' (on asciilifeform's box, 0.76.0-2013... tried to upgrade -- and earlier, to inst. xelatex -- but sank in dep hell) and phf's example chokes w/ 'File `luaotfload.sty' not found.' |
17:51 |
asciilifeform |
phf: re: heveaism in particular -- does this work as described in manual on your box ? |
| |
↖ |
17:51 |
asciilifeform |
( on asciilifeform's -- nope ) |
17:53 |
asciilifeform |
( and neither does e.g. this, tho fails differently -- under hevea, neither block executes, while under standard latex, ~both~ appear to ) |
17:53 |
asciilifeform |
in the former example, neither executes |
17:55 |
asciilifeform |
ftr the latextron asciilifeform had been using, was: 'pdfTeX 3.1415926-2.5-1.40.14 (TeX Live 2013)'. |
17:56 |
* |
asciilifeform evidently doomed to 'upgrade' the thing, i.e. to blow a multiweek vacation on manually emplacing the deps or alt. to bake a toilet box for subj (ugh) |
17:56 |
dulapbot |
(asciilifeform) 2022-07-28 asciilifeform: billymg: sadly asciilifeform never properly wrote recipe for xorg -- will say that it 1) muchly depends on the gpu backend yer using ( asciilifeform -- amd ) ; and 2) consisted of ~month of trial&error, manually emerging package by package with --no-deps and walking the barf tree |
18:01 |
asciilifeform |
^ will prolly have to be finessed via makefile kludge. puzzling that the knob described in manual dunwork tho |
18:01 |
asciilifeform |
( the 'htmlonly' thing ) |
| |
~ 42 minutes ~ |
18:43 |
jonsykkel |
is being able to emerge xorg with 0problems on dulap the exeptional case? |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
19:03 |
jonsykkel |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-30#1013554 << a++ giraffics, much harvard very h-index |
19:03 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-09-30 22:20:45 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: apropos of nuffin -- baking illustrations for rewritten pest spec |
19:03 |
jonsykkel |
loking 4ward to spec |
| |
~ 21 minutes ~ |
19:24 |
asciilifeform |
lolty jonsykkel |
19:26 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013607 << wasn't xorg per se, but the gpuism cruft ( 'mesa' + the board-specific liquishit for same ) |
19:26 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-10-02 18:43:43 jonsykkel: is being able to emerge xorg with 0problems on dulap the exeptional case? |
19:26 |
dulapbot |
(asciilifeform) 2021-11-07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063729 << i got 1 of those amd cad card things that doesn't 3d ~at all. but worx with 100% blobless driver, and pushes 3 x '4k', which was all i needed. |
19:31 |
jonsykkel |
ah okey |
| |
~ 30 minutes ~ |
20:02 |
asciilifeform |
fwiw this method worx (but not if the '\newcommand' is given where 'foo' and 'bar'...) . suffices for asciilifeform's purposes |
20:14 |
asciilifeform |
the complete horrid kludge ftr; worx w/ ye olde pdftex if 'OT2' encoding installed. |
20:15 |
asciilifeform |
what a timesink. |
| |
~ 35 minutes ~ |
20:51 |
phf |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013598 << my intuition for this approach is that it wouldn't work, because tex is not a real programming language, and latex is its ungodly spawn. if i were to write from scratch i'd go straight for your second solution, with ifthenelse |
20:51 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-10-02 17:51:16 asciilifeform[5]: phf: re: heveaism in particular -- does this work as described in manual on your box ? |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
phf: yea apparently \newcommand is prohibited in conditional blocks (and this doc'd nowhere) |
20:59 |
phf |
it's more of a consequence of the way latex does things. those begin\end blocks are "special" in the sense of "retarded", and i wouldn't really put anything in them beyond rendering and rendering related commands |
20:59 |
phf |
i don't really know latex, but if you know tex and try and do things the tex way it's pretty much guaranteed to go all kinds of wonky in a latex document |
20:59 |
phf |
we've had #t threads about it… |
21:00 |
* |
asciilifeform recalls several |
21:00 |
* |
asciilifeform lulzily, had been latexing on/off for ~20y and still feels rather clueless justabout errytime, 'wtf, this oughta work' |
21:02 |
asciilifeform |
is indeed a 'from hell' atrocity, 'which errybody stuck with cuz 0 substitutes'(tm) |
21:04 |
phf |
i'm particularly surprised that not a single project outside of core knuth's tex even attempted to use cweb or whatever. i mean, you'd think with a fanclub of that size, the inner tex sanctum would at least larp a project or two. nope. zero. |
21:06 |
* |
asciilifeform not used cweb |
| |
↖ |
21:07 |
asciilifeform |
pretty interesting tho |
21:07 |
phf |
it's the C version of knuth's WEB toolkit, for literate programming |
21:07 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
21:08 |
phf |
knuth regularly puts out little hacks that he wrote in cweb, while exploring some idea or other |
21:08 |
phf |
and nobody else of course |
21:09 |
phf |
https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/random-dfs-a.w november 2021 |
21:10 |
phf |
but my question is why are even old school tex companion programs, like dvi2ps, not written in cweb |
21:12 |
phf |
and the corresponding pdf output http://glyf.org/tmp/random-dfs-a.pdf |
21:13 |
phf |
but of course you can't use hevea (out of the box) to render random-dfs-a.tex as html, because it's not latex, but rather tex |
| |
~ 29 minutes ~ |
21:43 |
asciilifeform |
right |
21:44 |
* |
asciilifeform at one pt took a look at subj when in a fever dream of 'wainot deadtree ffa' but not got far |
21:45 |
phf |
i still sometimes dream of "1000 year documents" or someshit |
21:45 |
phf |
but if you've ever tried building minimal tex, realize very fast that there's no such thing as minimal tex |
21:45 |
asciilifeform |
perhaps moar achievable than '1000y reichs' but only by a notch |
21:46 |
asciilifeform |
and indeed sadly no such animal as 'compact tex' afaik |
21:47 |
asciilifeform |
iirc tex predates (or at any rate conceived of in parallel with) even postscript, and hence support for the latter already bloats the kit and poorly impedance-matched |
21:48 |
asciilifeform |
(whereas the native 'dvi' output format is eaten by ~nuffin afaik) |
21:49 |
asciilifeform |
... other than the various converters, that is |
21:52 |
* |
asciilifeform often wonders what sorta proprietary lolware exists for mathematical typesetting; or rather, whether any of it ever advanced beyond microshit ordeal where 'pluck a symbol from this-here multipage box with mouse errytime' |
21:53 |
asciilifeform |
afaik today even schoolbooks baked w/ latex ( with megatonne of custom styling so that 'not obv latex' ) |
21:54 |
* |
asciilifeform seen a few that were obv baked w/ 'mathematica' tho |
21:54 |
phf |
asciilifeform, the problem as far as bloat is not just that "postscript is big", it's the fact that there's constant ongoing vertical integration, so most tools exist as a subdirecotry of texlive multi-gb distribution |
21:54 |
asciilifeform |
^ afaik the only real competition |
21:54 |
asciilifeform |
phf: yea |
21:55 |
phf |
so for example dvips existed as its own tool in the early 2000s, was maybe couple of thousand lines of code. then "integrated with kpathsea", which is a monster of a library to do path searches |
| |
↖ |
21:56 |
asciilifeform |
asciilifeform's orig. ancient makefile for latex in fact invoked 'dvips', found that it chokes on tikzisms |
21:57 |
asciilifeform |
good % of latexism has this 'witchcraft' flavour, hence asciilifeform's reluctance to 'upgrade' any of the pieces, his install is from '13 in fact |
21:57 |
phf |
latex is further of a mess |
21:58 |
asciilifeform |
the 'original sin' of that mess imho |
21:58 |
phf |
probably back when lamport wrote it in 89 or whatever, was nice and elegant, but now it's a monster |
21:58 |
asciilifeform |
reminiscent of cpp , which also started as 'elegant preprocessor for c' |
21:58 |
phf |
it's a quentessential "hack". sort of like if somebody were to write DERIVE in brainfuck, because reasons |
21:59 |
asciilifeform |
^, and that nobody ever attempted to rewrite because 'aint nobody got the time' |
21:59 |
asciilifeform |
indeed phakt that no one will ever get tenure or promotion to lieutenant-general etc from 'write sane typesetter', given as 'hey there's latex' |
22:00 |
* |
asciilifeform recalls bolix's document system, tho. 100% parallel universe, and imho notbad |
22:01 |
phf |
moon technology |
22:01 |
asciilifeform |
it'd take a bolix-style effort (and sane bedrock) to dislodge tex, asciilifeform suspects |
22:02 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. aint aboutta happen |
22:12 |
phf |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013654 << but then eventually https://tug.org/TUGboat/tb38-2/tb119tolusis.pdf |
22:12 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-10-02 21:55:38 phf[awt]: so for example dvips existed as its own tool in the early 2000s, was maybe couple of thousand lines of code. then "integrated with kpathsea", which is a monster of a library to do path searches |
22:13 |
phf |
"We present two extensions to dvips. One allows flexible inclusion of bitmap images and was imple- mented on top of the FreeImage library. The second extension solves quite a long-standing task: adding OpenType font support to dvips. Our extended dvips, xdvipsk, goes the “LuaTEX way” in Open- Type font management: it w |
22:13 |
phf |
orks on DVI files com- piled by LuaTEX and expects to find the necessary Unicode map files, obtained as by-products of the compilation. The providing of these map files is en- sured by a special LATEX package." |
22:14 |
phf |
that's also the version of dvips that lives in tex-live distribution, and the one that you have on your system |
| |
~ 51 minutes ~ |
23:05 |
* |
asciilifeform still not grasps why fonts gotta exist in completely diff vector-graphical format from the lines an' graphs etc., other than 'historical reasons'(tm) |
23:06 |
asciilifeform |
far as asciilifeform concerned, whole shebang oughta've been a henderson-style tower of sexpr from day1 |
23:07 |
asciilifeform |
then not even would matter if rendering to vga or printer etc. ( incidentally sony made this go entirely reasonably in '80s w/ their 'display postscript' x11 replacement fwiw ) |
23:09 |
asciilifeform |
as it is, for fonts alone we've postscript, truetype, opentype, and wtf else |
23:10 |
asciilifeform |
( iirc traceable to a early '80s patent wank featuring crapple against adobe . ) |
23:10 |
phf |
possibly because computers were a mistake |
23:11 |
phf |
i mean t1 postscript fonts were basically tiny postscript programs for each letter to render a letter glyph, but even then they managed to fuck it up: the actual per-letter postscript is obfuscated through some very very simple cypher, because adobe was being adobe |
23:12 |
asciilifeform |
[insert oblig link to locklin's 'planes before cad actually flew in ~6mo from chalkboard] (tho too lazy to unearth link) |
| |
↖ |
23:13 |
asciilifeform |
phf: iirc they also introduced some kinda 'unprincipled exception' kludge to enable kerning/ligatures where reqs state |
23:13 |
phf |
of course somebody (i forgot who, it's in the lores, either unix room people, or smalltalk people) reversed the t1 format and "cracked" their scheme in a weekend, but the artifact stayed |
23:15 |
phf |
asciilifeform, tex is actually font agnostic by design, it lays out boxes of boxes, and it's the "printer" that fills out the smallest glyph boxes with their corresponding glyphs. so like .dvi doesn't have letters in it, but instead says something like "font1-glyph10" and it's e.g. xdvi or dvips that puts the glyphs in pla |
23:15 |
phf |
ce |
23:15 |
asciilifeform |
'softwarization' of phototypesetter (previously the things had actual wheels w/ projection film per glyph) prolly made adobe-style copyrastage inevitable |
23:16 |
asciilifeform |
iirc tex actually briefly pre-dates the bitmapization of photosetter, hence ^ |
23:16 |
asciilifeform |
(i.e. had to work with the film wheels kind) |
23:17 |
asciilifeform |
and, as is typical, the birth defect perma-baked-in |
23:19 |
phf |
yeah but how solve. "the whole spitoon" basically mandates fits in head, that is rewritable in its entirety on demand. was looking at oberon again, and was kind of amused that to this day the output of Project Oberon is a handful of source files, without a compiler or anything. you're supposed to bootstrap it by whatever m |
23:19 |
phf |
eans necessary :> |
23:19 |
phf |
and then fits in head becomes monster once you want "my dissertation is on influence of 16th century japanese poetry on 17th century arabic sufi writing" |
23:20 |
* |
asciilifeform after reading wirth's b00k, tried one time 'can actually run oberon?', promptly and unsurprisingly broke teeth |
23:21 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013680 << >> subj fwiw |
23:21 |
bitbot |
Logged on 2022-10-02 23:12:22 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|deedbot|awt]: [insert oblig link to locklin's 'planes before cad actually flew in ~6mo from chalkboard] (tho too lazy to unearth link) |
23:22 |
phf |
asciilifeform, i've ran it, by using somebody's emulator. see you're not supposed to "just run it". you're supposed to have understood the machine from the documentation, and then spent couple of months implemting the vm and the compiler on your host system, until you can bootstrap it from textual sources :D |
23:22 |
asciilifeform |
well asciilifeform in fact succeeded in pulling this off w/ (much simpler!) mips |
23:23 |
asciilifeform |
for anyffin heavier, rapidly devolves to 'lock me in a pyramid for 500yrs' bolix ressurrection |
23:24 |
* |
asciilifeform also did not, must point out, have to bake c compiler for that mips from empty space, either.. |
23:24 |
asciilifeform |
if had to -- and were enuff of a nut to insist -- would likely still be at it today |
23:26 |
phf |
afaiu oberon is singificantly simpler than c. the exercise seems to be an equivalent of "implement this subset of pascal, PL/0" but maybe 10x of that |
23:26 |
asciilifeform |
oblig '1000yr machine' oldthrd btw. |
23:26 |
dulapbot |
(asciilifeform) 2022-05-16 asciilifeform: Opcode Semantics |
23:27 |
phf |
there's a lot of this 1000yr machine, that's distinctly not a c-machine in the wirth's world. those guys seem to have a common methadology, of how to .e.g write a vm or a parser or a whatever in a couple of hours. |
23:28 |
phf |
so a student of wirth method could probably get an oberon going on any random metal in a matter of hours or days |
23:28 |
asciilifeform |
imho the 'scheme-83' folx, or even chuck moore et al, better example of '1000y' fwiw |
23:28 |
asciilifeform |
and prolly yes |
23:29 |
phf |
i think wirth people are roughly equivalent. i mean they had p-machine, and the whole PL/0, PL/1, ... bootstrapping strategy decades and decades ago |
23:31 |
phf |
pl/0 was a small pascal introduced in wirth's 1976 algorithms+data structures=programs, which was elsewhere refined to make it a bit more pragmatic. of course there's like 5 people who understand this stack at this point, because, like lisp, it's singificantly lore and groking of specific philosophy, and if i had another l |
23:31 |
phf |
ifetime, i would… |
23:33 |
asciilifeform |
asciilifeform's favoured ada subset is justabout ~pascal. but not esp. fond of it from aesthetic pov |
23:34 |
asciilifeform |
thing is, just about anyffin ~consistent~ would beat livingshit outta the extant horrors. |
23:34 |
asciilifeform |
even 'pascal machine' |
23:35 |
* |
asciilifeform has (or had? maybe threw) buncha '80s crapple 'developer' lit, where ~all examples pascalistic. at one time was the party line there |
23:35 |
phf |
too late! you need to 13GB of disk, and as much ram, to boot the winner of machine wars: THE JAVASCRIPT MACHINE |
23:36 |
* |
asciilifeform nostalgiates on 'SWAG' |
23:36 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2015-08-17 asciilifeform: http://www.retroarchive.org/swag << proper archive. |
23:37 |
phf |
isn't your favorite DERIVE written in turbopascal? :> |
23:38 |
asciilifeform |
phf: afaik the frontend was! (the engine was 'mulisp' + a compiled bytecode turd for same) |
23:38 |
asciilifeform |
frontend 'typeset' (in ascii graphic) the maffs |
23:39 |
phf |
everything else is of the devil |
23:40 |
* |
asciilifeform to this day impressed w/ ye olde 'derive', did ~95% of what 'macsyma' did, and not needed multiyear grant at lulministry |
23:42 |
asciilifeform |
( still 'state of art' in opensores symbolicmaffs afaik ) |
23:42 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2017-01-04 asciilifeform: (state of the art in open sores world is still macsyma, circa 1975) |
23:42 |
* |
asciilifeform at one time dug up what was left of macsyma and put to use in anger in a saltmine |
23:43 |
phf |
maxima is still being actively updated, but i've not had a chance to see what manner of code that is |
23:44 |
phf |
it doesn't look like purely maggot code, because it'll be meaty updates to like (defun back-propagate-bernoulli-m4 ...) and shit like that |
23:44 |
asciilifeform |
the 1 asciilifeform unearthed was iirc circa ~1980 but commonlispized |
23:44 |
phf |
aah |
23:44 |
asciilifeform |
no 'skins' or anyffin |
23:45 |
phf |
ah, yeah, the last mit release, before symbolics claimed the whole thing |
23:45 |
* |
asciilifeform at the time was doin' time in a darpa-powered lulzmine where orders were to 'canhaz auto-determinator of algo complexity when algo given in such-such format' |
23:46 |
asciilifeform |
^ no prizes for pointing out 'bbut halting problem' |
23:48 |
phf |
halting problem is overrated :> |
23:49 |
asciilifeform |
the thing, in turn, was outgrowth of a brain-melting pile of 'meta' bureaucracy, where 'ministry of lulz is swamped with claims of homomorphic cryptosystem; how to help evaluators evaluate'em' |
23:49 |
phf |
one can still make some kind of useful claims even if you have "there be dragons" states |
23:49 |
phf |
ahaha, that's beautiful |
23:49 |
asciilifeform |
aaha |
23:50 |
* |
asciilifeform did the obv thing and redefined the 'problem' into a 'solvable' one, then 'solved', fin |
23:50 |
* |
asciilifeform ended up even sitting on committee, which was experience straight outta film 'brazil' |
| |
↖ |
23:51 |
asciilifeform |
( for the stars of the show -- perhaps from kafka ) |
23:51 |
phf |
http://logs.bitdash.io/trilema/2017-12-27#1759220 there is in fact a convergence point of the last few threads |
23:51 |
bitbot |
(trilema) 2017-12-27 phf: early tex papers knuth talks about putting this or that formula into macsyma, but then from some point he fully switches to mathematica. breaks me heart |
23:52 |
asciilifeform |
hm vol4 looks , fwiw, entirely texy |
23:52 |
asciilifeform |
then again whoknows just with what baked |
| |
↖ |
23:53 |
phf |
he's definitely using tex for taocp, but not macsyma anymore |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
a |
23:53 |
phf |
in fact his "famous" fvwm screenshot got cli mathematica on it :( |
23:53 |
asciilifeform |
ugh |
23:53 |
* |
asciilifeform unsurprised tho |
23:54 |
phf |
https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/screen.jpeg |
23:54 |
asciilifeform |
lol a very vintage mathematica |
23:55 |
phf |
probaly about as vintage as that screenshot ;) |
23:55 |
asciilifeform |
( was expecting it'd be at least of last ~decade, which nominally shits tex ) |
23:55 |
asciilifeform |
aa |
23:55 |
* |
asciilifeform would also not be surprised if were ~current~ screenshit |
23:56 |
asciilifeform |
'openstep' & all |
23:56 |
phf |
we've had a conversation where guy has been using a mac since forever |
23:56 |
asciilifeform |
a hm. |
23:57 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl. |
23:57 |
phf |
but also who knows, there's https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/zoomlunch.jpg but also https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/Knuth-vivian20181019C.jpg |
23:58 |
phf |
that later 2018 one looks identical to the late 90s screenshot. and now we know |
23:58 |
phf |
asciilifeform, laters! |