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← 2022-10-03 | 2022-10-05 → ↓
09:56 shinohai $ticker btc usd
09:56 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $20081.69
09:57 shinohai http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-03#1013785 << thx again signpost, knobs set and bot station updated.
09:57 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-03 18:35:00 signpost: shinohai: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-11#1009305
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
11:19 shinohai $uptime
11:19 busybot The bot has been up for: 1 hours 24 minutes and 6 seconds
~ 4 hours 13 minutes ~
15:33 phf to the previous thread http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013744 volume 4 pre-fascicle 7a https://cs.stanford.edu/~knuth/fasc7a.ps.gz says, unsurprisingly, that it's from fasc7a.dvi, TeX output 2022.08.01:1918
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15:33 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-02 23:52:21 asciilifeform[6]: then again whoknows just with what baked
15:33 phf as opposed to e.g. pdftex
~ 18 minutes ~
15:52 jonsykkel http://zzz.st/up/I78PRY3h/ ur mesage as i se it contains 0x0a
15:53 jonsykkel after it not shows up in logs
15:55 phf ah, cute
15:56 phf well i picked up #x0a from slopy copy/paste, but we kind of know that blatta is funny about newlines, because of the whole irc compat
15:57 jonsykkel inded wont work wiht any irc interface
15:59 phf that's not true, one could figure out reasonable semantics for the boundary between on the wire pest, and the payload presentation through irc interface
15:59 jonsykkel u mean spliting the mesage into seprate irc commands
16:00 jonsykkel sure
16:00 phf yah
16:00 phf it will kind of break the logs, because logs are talking irc, rather then directly to database, so you'll have separate messages for non-separate messages, but honestly i don't see any reason to be particularly pedantic about this
16:02 phf i'm too lazy to look at the spec but pest special-cases messages that don't fit into a single pest packet, by splitting them into multiple packets. presumalby on render one could recognize that the message is the same (identical timestamp, direct selfchain) and merge them together
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16:04 jonsykkel could, but stamps are second resolution so u will then have messages incorectly glued all the time
16:05 jonsykkel need "more fragments" bit to solve it properly
16:06 phf jonsykkel, i think you'll very rarely have messages "incorrectly" glued, since you're matching by self-chain and timestamp being identical
16:07 jonsykkel well selfchain always gona match up if u send from same station, and then u just need 2 quick ones wihtin 1sec
16:07 phf right
16:08 phf i'm arguing the "all the time" vs "rarely", rather than whether it can happen at all
16:09 jonsykkel sure, but i think "rarely" will be like 5times in a active day
16:10 phf cool
16:10 jonsykkel if u have fast finger
16:10 jonsykkel like myslef
16:21 phf well, according to my tests you're not in danger, the main culprit is deedbot
16:24 phf i don't have much packet backlog, september 30th is the first packet, but over that time if one were to merge packets like that, would get http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=MhQR
16:30 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-04#1013802 << unsurprising, but raises the q re outta what he bakes the very clean graphs etc (raw tex shat outta a pascal proggy?! or wat)
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16:30 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-04 15:33:04 phf[awt]: to the previous thread http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-02#1013744 volume 4 pre-fascicle 7a https://cs.stanford.edu/~knuth/fasc7a.ps.gz says, unsurprisingly, that it's from fasc7a.dvi, TeX output 2022.08.01:1918
16:30 jonsykkel posible that irc client flood protection will save ppl
16:32 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-04#1013815 << per current (well, not for much longer..) draft :
16:32 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-04 16:02:37 phf[awt]: i'm too lazy to look at the spec but pest special-cases messages that don't fit into a single pest packet, by splitting them into multiple packets. presumalby on render one could recognize that the message is the same (identical timestamp, direct selfchain) and merge them together
16:32 asciilifeform 'Given that a Pest Message is able to carry no more than 324 bytes of Payload, a single IRC command received from the console may require a station to originate two text Messages. These must be appropriately chained, and their Timestamps must be equal. Receivers will place these Messages into the correct order using their
16:32 asciilifeform ... their SelfChain and NetChain values.' grr
16:32 phf :}
16:33 * asciilifeform did not bother to point out that only msgs from given $handle with == times & consec. chains oughta be glued, but hopes is obv
16:34 * asciilifeform erring on the side of pedanticism in rewritten spec, can always 'diet' it down later
16:35 phf asciilifeform, well, jonsykkel points out that anything that spits out messages under 1s< rate will get magically glued. i suspect that it will mostly happen in bot situations and ocassional "lol spam"
16:35 asciilifeform yea was eating log & finally saw, lol
16:36 phf per my test above the only "accidental" one is deedbot, and i suspect the way it happend is that two messages that were at distance arrived and sat in the same buffer,then hit the automatic machinery at the same time, so deedbot produced answers in a tight loop, that is in the same second
16:37 phf the main issue with "gluing" is whether or not there should be a newline in between glued lines. otherwise the result is visually etc. identical to individual messages
16:39 asciilifeform indeed prolly oughta've specced 'piss <= 1/s unless you want'em glued'
16:40 asciilifeform hypothetically could've 'glue this' flag etc., but protocol is gnarly enuff w/out such things imho
16:41 jonsykkel maybe not such a problem oustide of paste 10lines into chat = have to wait 10sec
16:42 phf well, no, "paste 10 lines" should exactly be glued!
16:42 jonsykkel or i supose those would be glued yes
16:42 asciilifeform aaha
16:42 jonsykkel nvm!
16:42 asciilifeform was abouttasay
16:43 jonsykkel that stupid ircness gose away indeed
16:43 asciilifeform eventually 100% of ircism , theoretically, goesaway. (liekly 1st for folx willing to live in emacs / shell)
16:45 * asciilifeform in new spec, moved all ircism to an annex
16:45 jonsykkel how to even live outside shell
16:45 asciilifeform old one is imho horrid mess from this pov, with chaotic mix of front and rear end
16:46 phf http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-as-she-sail.png
16:46 asciilifeform jonsykkel: asciilifeform likes frontends where can cleanly copypaste text a la xchat
16:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-22 21:01:56 asciilifeform: tk is rather barbaric, but beats the shit outta raw console and its spurious linebreaks in pastes etc
16:46 jonsykkel thought about even spliting pestron into pure item with no irc/tcp, with "rpc" inteface (but bidirectional) then have temporary rpc<->irc device as separte item
16:47 jonsykkel true copybaste is masive asspain
16:47 asciilifeform phf: nifty, loox like has editbox (& presumably cleanly pasteable-from log)
16:48 asciilifeform jonsykkel: from shell / curses proggy, afaik lethal pain
16:48 * asciilifeform not seen any 100% working examples at all
16:48 asciilifeform (and if can't do it w/ middleclick, it aint 'working example' per asciilifeform's lights)
16:48 phf yeah, i haven't really tested obnoxious pastes, but should also work
16:48 phf Stately, plump Buck Mulligan came from the stairhead, bearing a bowl of lather on which a mirror and a razor lay crossed. A yellow dressinggown, ungirdled, was sustained gently behind him on the mild morning air. He held the bowl aloft and intoned:
16:49 phf nd called out coarsely:
16:49 phf gurgling in his throat and shaking his head. Stephen Dedalus, displeased and sleepy, leaned his arms on the top of the staircase and looked coldly at the shaking gurgling face that blessed him, equine in its length, and at the light untonsured hair, grained and hued like pale oak.
16:49 asciilifeform phf: what didja sew the gui outta ?
16:50 phf hmm, i was certain that i've fixed this issue, apparently not. i guess that's how this thread started to begin with
16:50 phf asciilifeform, tk
16:50 asciilifeform a.
~ 18 minutes ~
17:09 phf Stately, plump Buck Mulligan came from the stairhead, bearing a bowl of lather on which a mirror and a razor lay crossed. A yellow dressinggown, ungirdled, was sustained gently behind him on the mild morning air. He held the bowl aloft and intoned:
17:09 phf —Introibo ad altare Dei.
17:09 phf Halted, he peered down the dark winding stairs and called out coarsely:
17:09 phf —Come up, Kinch! Come up, you fearful jesuit!
17:09 phf Solemnly he came forward and mounted the round gunrest. He faced about and blessed gravely thrice the tower, the surrounding land and the awaking mountains. Then, catching sight of Stephen Dedalus, he bent towards him and made rapid crosses in the air, gurgling in his throat and shaking his head. Stephen Dedalus, displease
17:09 phf d and sleepy, leaned his arms on the top of the staircase and looked coldly at the shaking gurgling face that blessed him, equine in its length, and at the light untonsured hair, grained and hued like pale oak.
17:11 phf while that fixes an immediate problem, it introduces a new one: if one were to stitch it back together, will lose newlines, because in addition to fitting into a message i also intorduce a split on newline
17:12 phf so really blatta should handle newlines in incomming pest messages better, by splitting them into multiple privmsgs, rather than having other clients accomodate this particular ircism
17:13 phf awt
~ 30 minutes ~
17:44 asciilifeform lol! asciilifeform had nfi, wouldn't have dreamed in nightmare that one can stuff >1 newline into irc msg
17:44 asciilifeform evidently can.
17:50 phf tbh i aways found pastes to be distasteful. i suppose problem could be solved with attached mime annotated files and a whole lot of dwim interface patterns, but in practice haven't seen it done right anywhere
17:51 phf telegram used to support ``` foo ```, but then for whatever reason they disabled it
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17:52 phf in the ideal world i want my chat window to be a multiplayer mathematica: inline images, inline graphs, multiline inline text pastes from terminal outputs and such
~ 4 hours 19 minutes ~
22:12 asciilifeform ^
22:12 asciilifeform pastes, naturally, oughta be nelsonian 'transclusions' neh.
22:13 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-04#1013884 << what did that notation do ?
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22:13 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-04 17:51:30 phf[awt]: telegram used to support ``` foo ```, but then for whatever reason they disabled it
22:13 * asciilifeform not used subj
22:15 * asciilifeform has it filed in head as 'aol/skype clone popular in orcistans' but not knows details
22:17 asciilifeform imho an 'adult' pestron oughta support inline img, optionally displayed. we aint there yet tho
22:17 asciilifeform ( and, naturally, they oughta ride on signpost's luby scheme )
22:19 asciilifeform and re: 'multiplayer mathematica', per asciilifeform's lights, it'd follow quite organically from a sane 'single-player mathematica', i.e. 'the computer that aint a mistake'
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