Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2023-01-20 | 2023-01-22 → ↓
07:27 cgra http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021337 << phf, which font is that? appears more to my taste vs my current placeholder font (Georgia, which has uneven number heights)
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07:27 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 19:48:58 phf[deedbot|awt]: crtdaydreams, it was a joke at some point, and then it stuck. right before i switched to this ungodly combo it looked like this http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-as-she-sail.png
07:40 awt $ticker btc usd
07:41 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $22996.41
~ 2 hours 29 minutes ~
10:10 awt http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/9970-split.vpatch << 9970: patch that splits messages with newlines into multiple messages.
~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
11:41 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-04#1013828 << word on the street (i can't find any confirmation anywhere, but i haven't looked hard) is that knuth uses metapost, on account of it being basically metafont, but with some extra graph features
11:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-10-04 16:30:05 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|awt|deedbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-04#1013802 << unsurprising, but raises the q re outta what he bakes the very clean graphs etc (raw tex shat outta a pascal proggy?! or wat)
11:45 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021439 << i'm pretty sure it's one of the computer modern variations in ttf, from https://cm-unicode.sourceforge.io
11:45 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 07:27:22 cgra[jonsykkel|signpost]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021337 << phf, which font is that? appears more to my taste vs my current placeholder font (Georgia, which has uneven number heights)
~ 2 hours 25 minutes ~
14:10 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021418 << asciilifeform suspects that '~erryone was covered' is an ( appealing , yes ) historical fiction, rather than solid phakt
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14:10 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 22:12:20 phf[awt|deedbot]: now, the trick with "replace god with X" is to find a similar kind of coverage, because the more people are uncovered the worse your overal situation is
14:10 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-03-01 asciilifeform: and openly profess to wish for a pill that would 'turn them catholic' or whatnot
14:11 asciilifeform ( err, correct link )
14:11 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-03-01 asciilifeform: one of the mega-lulz re: 'paleoconservatives' is that most of these folks (that i've had the fortune of reading) struggle with a mental bug - they yearn to roll back to some known-good state where various old-school religions were still strong, but don't personally subscribe to them
14:12 signpost also oughta mention for thread completeness and for n00bs that the vision, if unrealized, was for the tmsr WoT to grow to significant coverage of rock three.
14:14 signpost the where and why of meaning was "in the eyes of the peerage", WoT being the record of tournament of tournaments
14:14 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-18 15:39:42 signpost: there is a hierarchy of tournaments in functioning human civilization
14:14 asciilifeform eh, e.g. nick tesla wanted wireless mains grid covering planet3. errybody wants
14:14 signpost entirely true that this was the political aspiration of the item at the time.
14:14 asciilifeform 'aim for stars, but at least hit london'(tm)
14:15 signpost both statements true, no dispute.
14:15 signpost engine at least turned over for a while in these
14:15 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 19:26:07 phf[awt|deedbot]: i mean you had classical communism and fascism
14:18 asciilifeform we still have'em, lol, they hybridized & won, current reich is recognizable result
14:20 signpost yep, and dropping pretense to otherwise quickly.
14:20 cgra phf, thanks for the cmu font tip. i got it going, but for some reason the best matching variant is skinnier than in your screenshot. anyway, not worth much further investigation at this point.
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14:21 asciilifeform signpost: 'soft power'(tm)(r)
14:21 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-25 asciilifeform: current reich is based on model of 'cheaper to guard the concentration camp if the inmates can be persuaded that they aint in one' ;
14:25 signpost !!help
14:25 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
14:39 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021299 << does he? ( and, supposing that chapel, or e.g. pyramids, were moar impressive to contemporaries than today's redditus, is this on account of 'dead god' or simply colour photography ? )
14:39 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:34:50 phf[deedbot]: well, a nihilist is in a historic context. when an amerimutt looks up in a sistine chapel he necessarily feels anger, that's why amerimutt desided to destroy the whole world with woke
14:41 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021312 << afaik over90000x moar common sudden q was 'my salary stopped showing up, and even if showed up dinner costs moar than it' rather than 'ohnoez they turned off marx watdo'
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14:41 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:49:48 phf[deedbot]: 􏿽n giant country, built hospitals and factories, etc." but that's not the perspective the bulk of men take. the perspective is/was "what the fuck my life is a lie what do"
14:42 asciilifeform ( the folx who 'enscribed themselves into market(tm)(r)' not, by any indication, sat and suffered with existential questions, were far too busy snorting coke )
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14:43 asciilifeform jonsykkel had great piece re subj, recently linked
14:44 asciilifeform '...its a retarded question.. this thought should never appear in ur head, if it does, something has alredy gone wrong' etc
14:47 * asciilifeform observes the obv trend of thinking folx on the net wishing for comeback of old religions (mostly anglo protestantisms, tho also catholicism or, in ru, mass epidemic of 'orthodoxy of central nervous system'(tm)) but imho is interesting cocktail of lulz and unexamined motivations
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14:51 asciilifeform to take just 1, somehow none of'em are in a hurry to pack suitcase and go to dar al islam, even tho fits nearly all of the 'good old' criteria
14:57 asciilifeform imho folx much too preoccupied with the q of what default exception handler oughta be installed in (usually, other people's) heads, and ignore the moar interesting q of 'wai is my head throwing exceptions during normal operation'
~ 3 hours 24 minutes ~
18:21 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021448 << you don't have to "suspect" anything, there's plenty of research on subj. "everyone" covered comes with huge asterisks, because of the nature of both evertyone and covered, but for the purposes of the point i was making it was in fact "everyone" "covered".
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18:21 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:10:53 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021418 << asciilifeform suspects that '~erryone was covered' is an ( appealing , yes ) historical fiction, rather than solid phakt
18:21 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-03-01 asciilifeform: and openly profess to wish for a pill that would 'turn them catholic' or whatnot
18:23 phf if you want to slog through a very extensive historic account of the role of both religion and "magic" in the life of englishmen circa 17th century, i highly recommend https://www.abebooks.com/9780140600155/Religion-Decline-Magic-Thomas-Keith-0140600159/plp
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18:30 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021471 << i think you're wrong here also, and i will rely on my personal experience growing up in russia immediately after collapse. i will in fact argue that "they turned off marx what do" is a defining question of the 90s, rather than "my salary stopped showing up"
18:30 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:41:28 asciilifeform[4]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021312 << afaik over90000x moar common sudden q was 'my salary stopped showing up, and even if showed up dinner costs moar than it' rather than 'ohnoez they turned off marx watdo'
18:33 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021473 << jeez, these are all unfounded suppositions. folx who enscribed themselves into market were the first to struggle with collapse of meaning, considering the immense popularity of pelevin with "office plankton".
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18:33 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:42:03 asciilifeform[5]: ( the folx who 'enscribed themselves into market(tm)(r)' not, by any indication, sat and suffered with existential questions, were far too busy snorting coke )
18:34 phf i think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of ontologic systems, and the implications of their collapse
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18:36 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021476 << if your supposition is wrong, so will be your conclusions, but even the chain of conclusions is wrong. one can observe the reality of the past, without attempting or even believing in the possibility of recreating the past in the present.
18:36 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:47:59 asciilifeform[5]: observes the obv trend of thinking folx on the net wishing for comeback of old religions (mostly anglo protestantisms, tho also catholicism or, in ru, mass epidemic of 'orthodoxy of central nervous system'(tm)) but imho is interesting cocktail of lulz and unexamined motivations
~ 45 minutes ~
19:22 asciilifeform phf: plox to unpack (which supposition)
19:23 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021485 << afaik struggled in direct inverse proportion to 'how enscribed' (tho we may be disagreeing on basics -- from asciilifeform's pov, mobster who ODs on coke aint 'struggling with meaning of life', the latter imho is strictly intelligentia's 'sport')
19:23 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 18:33:27 phf[deedbot|awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021473 << jeez, these are all unfounded suppositions. folx who enscribed themselves into market were the first to struggle with collapse of meaning, considering the immense popularity of pelevin with "office plankton".
19:24 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021482 << loox interesting, will read
19:24 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 18:23:24 phf[awt|deedbot]: if you want to slog through a very extensive historic account of the role of both religion and "magic" in the life of englishmen circa 17th century, i highly recommend https://www.abebooks.com/9780140600155/Religion-Decline-Magic-Thomas-Keith-0140600159/plp
19:24 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021479 << this is impossible to dispute as given ( tho could similarly say, today just as then, 'everyone' 'covered' )
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19:24 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 18:21:21 phf[awt|deedbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021448 << you don't have to "suspect" anything, there's plenty of research on subj. "everyone" covered comes with huge asterisks, because of the nature of both evertyone and covered, but for the purposes of the point i was making it was in fact "everyone" "covered".
19:27 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021487 << not certain that ~anyone~ properly understands the implications (e.g. did the original roman 'family gods' thing weaken and with its weakinging, the republic fell (as described in 'u-turn') ? or the reverse..? )
19:27 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 18:34:25 phf[deedbot|awt]: i think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of ontologic systems, and the implications of their collapse
19:29 asciilifeform ( subj )
19:29 asciilifeform errn, nm, crippleware faux warez
19:29 asciilifeform ^ if anyone has decent scan, plox to post
19:30 asciilifeform *weakening
19:37 asciilifeform (and -- to what degree is even possible to analyze effects of 'meaning collapsed' when and where at same time 'paycheque collapsed' and 'law collapsed' ? )
19:42 asciilifeform bulk of what passes for humans not even detectably cares about 'ontological system' even in vaguest sense.
19:44 asciilifeform on top of this, troo state religion of ye olde su was... ww2, rather than marx (and its ontological collapse directly went with the aging & death of the generation who saw live germans, and began well prior to gorby, and running through its final gasps even today)
19:47 asciilifeform ( see also e.g. )
19:47 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-12-01 asciilifeform: recalls burial of grandfather, with orchestra, rifle salute, etc. and vague notion that various 'changes' all about are indeed connected with the disappearance of that gen
~ 18 minutes ~
20:06 phf 􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021495 << but so is your original "suspicion". the extent to which religion (and magic) were part of society is well documented from primary sources. most of it is implications from the kind of political, social, judicial that existed. some o
20:06 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 19:24:55 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021479 << this is impossible to dispute as given ( tho could similarly say, today just as then, 'everyone' 'covered' )
20:06 phf 􏿽f it is first person accounts (from believers and faux-belivers and non-believers)
20:06 phf you can easily compare the nature and extent of coverage, and realize that it's infinitely reduced so as to be non-existent, comparatively
20:07 asciilifeform that 'part of soc.' -- obv phakt. but not all the commonly supposed implications ('fundamental to ontology', 'it weakened, and with it errything fell apart') necessarily follow
20:07 asciilifeform for that mattter, not clear to asciilifeform that 'vacuum of religion' is even possible -- old ones always appear to be replaced with new
20:12 phf who are these people who are making "commonly supposed implications" that you're arguing against?
20:14 asciilifeform phf & signpost (unless asciilifeform misunderstands yest. thrd) and # of 'i'm atheist, sure, but folx oughta believe or civ goes to shit' folx on net, e.g. locklin)
20:14 signpost nope, I've said many times that revival isn't possible, including in most recent thread.
20:14 signpost believe phf said also.
20:15 signpost question is what was in the slot, nature of slot, etc
20:15 asciilifeform right. but 'whether revive possible' is separate q
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20:16 phf and yet http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021519 <<>> http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021476
20:16 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 20:15:23 asciilifeform[4]: right. but 'whether revive possible' is separate q
20:16 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:47:59 asciilifeform[5]: observes the obv trend of thinking folx on the net wishing for comeback of old religions (mostly anglo protestantisms, tho also catholicism or, in ru, mass epidemic of 'orthodoxy of central nervous system'(tm)) but imho is interesting cocktail of lulz and unexamined motivations
20:16 asciilifeform and old idea, too. e.g. orwell mentioned off hand 'world wars inevitable after darwin' and did not think needs justification, was assuming that reader considers this obv
20:16 asciilifeform not even necessarily wrong. simply from asciilifeform's pov aint obv. that it accounts for errything, or even causally points in correct dir
20:17 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021482 << ty for the book rec.
20:17 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 18:23:24 phf[awt|deedbot]: if you want to slog through a very extensive historic account of the role of both religion and "magic" in the life of englishmen circa 17th century, i highly recommend https://www.abebooks.com/9780140600155/Religion-Decline-Magic-Thomas-Keith-0140600159/plp
20:19 signpost who was it, seek first to understand before proposing to replace, approximates my view on the thing.
20:19 signpost but anyway, gotta bbl
20:22 phf asciilifeform, i would e.g. never use a phrase that you're supposedly quoting "fundamental to ontology", because that's not what religion is. religion *is* the ontology.
20:28 phf i guess there are various sociological arguments for why societies construct ontology, but i suspect it's by observation. every society had some kind of ontology, and it religious society religion is it. covers creation, eschatology, purpose, nature and meaning of being.
20:32 phf anyway, i think i need to reenter this conversation at a later point, i found this http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021448 to be so infuriating, that i can't even, just flailing from that point on
20:32 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:10:53 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021418 << asciilifeform suspects that '~erryone was covered' is an ( appealing , yes ) historical fiction, rather than solid phakt
20:32 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-03-01 asciilifeform: and openly profess to wish for a pill that would 'turn them catholic' or whatnot
~ 51 minutes ~
21:24 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021464 << i've checked older version of pest.lisp and it looks like it was "CMU Serif"
21:24 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 14:20:31 cgra[jonsykkel|signpost]: phf, thanks for the cmu font tip. i got it going, but for some reason the best matching variant is skinnier than in your screenshot. anyway, not worth much further investigation at this point.
21:25 phf linux freetype renderer tends to produce skinnier versions, i have at some point spent significant amount of time trying to reproduce the tasteful thickness of mac's renderer but failed to make it look exactly the same. you can definitely approximate it better compared to defaults
21:27 phf it's highly unlikely i'll be able to find that fonts.conf in backups, but one would start with https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=fonts-conf&sektion=5&format=html
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~ 33 minutes ~
22:00 * asciilifeform liked, of all things, the mac os <=9 font renderer
22:05 asciilifeform in wholly unrelated 'kindergarten' q's, does someone know why when e.g. 'insert or replace into knobs(name, value) values(?, ?)' the prev value is still visible in hexdump of the sqlite turd ? (does 'update or replace' in fact crank up the index and put new row?)
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22:07 asciilifeform ( was this wai awt had, in blatta, a query to find the existing row..? )
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22:08 asciilifeform ( for knobs, i suppose not matters, but for e.g. 'broken hearts' could bloat the db pretty quickly )
22:12 phf https://www.sqlite.org/lang_vacuum.html
22:13 phf vacuuming is the universal sql thing, e.g. https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/sql-vacuum.html
22:14 phf by default you're going to have stale bits on disk, because updates tend to be smart
22:14 phf e.g. postgresql update is delete followed by insert, where delete just marks row as deleted without actually doing anything
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22:14 phf you then have to vacuum because a update heavy table will baloon
22:18 phf (come to think of it, if you weren't vacuuming your phuctor tables, could've been a major contributor to everything running dog slow)
22:20 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021539 ^
22:20 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 22:05:34 asciilifeform[4]: in wholly unrelated 'kindergarten' q's, does someone know why when e.g. 'insert or replace into knobs(name, value) values(?, ?)' the prev value is still visible in hexdump of the sqlite turd ? (does 'update or replace' in fact crank up the index and put new row?)
~ 32 minutes ~
22:53 asciilifeform phf: phuctor was vacuumed weekly (but, with exception of when was doing odd things, there was nuffin to vacuum, because data set was only ever added to, never mutated)
22:53 asciilifeform was dog slow tho, until asciilifeform finally cracked, lol, a b00k, and found out about indices
22:54 asciilifeform make sense that 'fucked with it, nao gc plz' tho. ty phf
22:57 * asciilifeform will have to experiment with 'what vacuum interval?' in sqlite in re pestron
22:58 asciilifeform blatta doesn't do it at all, but it also doesn't litter the db with 'broken hearts' that one later has to mutate, either
22:59 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-21#1021545 << wonder if still tru if field has explicit fixed length tho
22:59 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-21 22:14:40 phf[deedbot|awt]: e.g. postgresql update is delete followed by insert, where delete just marks row as deleted without actually doing anything
23:00 signpost iirc yes, because there's a tree of transaction states that it doesn't know whether will commit until it happens
23:00 asciilifeform possibly the journaling mechanics still produce garbage even then.
23:01 signpost so all of 'em exist, then later unused branches of reality gc'd
23:01 signpost yup
23:01 asciilifeform aa.
23:01 asciilifeform makes sense.
23:02 asciilifeform append-only (as in phuctor, on postgres) didn't seem to produce measurable qty of garbage, however. so possibly there was some kinda 'smart' baked in
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