Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2023-01-19 | 2023-01-21 → ↓
00:00 asciilifeform what they do aint any kinda new thing either -- merely return to w. r. hearst methods
~ 4 hours 12 minutes ~
04:13 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020956 << More or less, the point I was vying for was really "the machinist doesn't go home to work on a project on his personal hobby lathe after 12hr day." The tendency for passion to be destroyed by work results in the highly skilled individuals prioritizing commercialisms instead
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04:13 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-19 11:26:11 phf[deedbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020948 << from the cutoff it's not obvious if you're referencing bob black's zerowork or the gamification of the internet, because both points are made in the original
04:13 crtdaydreams of e.g. torvalds
04:22 crtdaydreams I'm not too familiar with bob blacks work, but from this snippet we're both on the same page.
04:22 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-19 11:42:27 phf[awt|deedbot]: so when i bring up bob black it's mostly to acknowledge that nobody and any point of time wanted to work. that a base man's natural inclanation is to either play a fiddle by a shack or take it a step further and go be merry men in the sherwood forest
04:23 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020962 << I feel like I articulated this somewhat with my use of "generational" but it's good to have it confirmed to be the exception, not the norm.
04:23 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-19 11:48:42 phf[deedbot|awt]: but here's a thing, bob black's ideas are basically timeless, where's high dopamine activities are the past 10 years
04:32 crtdaydreams I initially thought that the rhodesia segue was rather tangential, retrospectively it raises an interesting q, are there any other historical "rhodesias"? Wherin ancient reich declared unpersoned. History being cyclic and all there should be some similarity within the last 800 years no?
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~ 5 hours 37 minutes ~
10:09 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: most obv -- carthage
10:10 asciilifeform >800 but is the go-to example
10:11 asciilifeform if you want a recent one -- 'free state of fiume'
10:13 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021101 << many (most?) programmers not program in civilian life. (e.g. asciilifeform's brother does not)
10:13 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 04:13:05 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020956 << More or less, the point I was vying for was really "the machinist doesn't go home to work on a project on his personal hobby lathe after 12hr day." The tendency for passion to be destroyed by work results in the highly skilled individuals prioritizing commercialisms instead
10:14 asciilifeform ( not because 'tired from work', but simply interested in diff thing, he's a 7dan amateur go player )
~ 3 hours 40 minutes ~
13:54 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021108 << well, i obviously think that it raises all kinds of questions, hence the tangent :)
13:54 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 04:32:20 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: I initially thought that the rhodesia segue was rather tangential, retrospectively it raises an interesting q, are there any other historical "rhodesias"? Wherin ancient reich declared unpersoned. History being cyclic and all there should be some similarity within the last 800 years no?
13:55 phf but i'm not sure if i'm particularly interested in historic parallels, because i *personally* find them to be very unsatisfying
14:00 phf the way i tie together rhodesia, finland and modern "failure to act", is that they all are about intentional destruction of organized private spaces
14:03 phf and one hypothesis why failure to act is about internalized demoralization, which perhaps stems from some kind of possibly misapplied principles of fairness, etc.
14:03 asciilifeform 1st law of 1000y reich construction : 'there shall be nowhere to defect to'
14:03 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2020-06-07 asciilifeform: ru storyteller v. pelevin had a scene where 'we had sovok, but to ours, people could bring bootleg jeans and music. and it was even possible to get out. now you have one in usa, but there is important difference : no one will bring bootleg jeans to it, and no one will get out, beca
14:05 phf and i think that this internalized demoralization in the west and in us is instilled since early childhood with various "share your toys", "let john play", and various other forms of be nice
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14:07 phf because there might be very good reasons why you don't want to share your toys, or let john join your little club, and not all of them are "because you're meany"
14:07 * asciilifeform still remembers the not-least-bit-'natural' death of usenet via TBs of shannonized spamola, and believes that even this was part of said 'destruction of private spaces'
14:09 asciilifeform re 'let john', see e.g.
14:09 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-19 asciilifeform: ( see also mircea_popescu's '...bullying is done by normal, sane and upstanding humans who are trying to do their part so we don't live among monsters' -- http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes )
14:11 phf and i suspect there's synergistic process, with ideology on one side and "this benefits us" on the other
14:12 phf like in that old joke, one russian is decent guy, two russians are best friends, three russians are a revolutionary cell with a traitor
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14:14 phf but anyway, not to detour, but the demoralization stems from the fact that whatever you might build will be destroyed, because there's a huge mental leap from socially indoctrinated kid into "fuck off, we're full"
14:16 asciilifeform not merely destroyed. but unhappened/invisible, because the fundamental prohibition is on 'room with 7 smart people w/out a politruk' and without 'neutron absorber' idjits with 'rights'
14:16 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-18 15:30:30 asciilifeform[5]: phf: prolly there are , let's say, 7 people in usa building electrolytic milling machines ( an asciilifeform attempt fwiw ) in garages, but they're all 'hiki' and will never meet
14:16 phf and if 50 years ago you literally had to be building a white ethnostate with black majority, then now a superbowl get together where it's only white guys is racist
14:17 phf right, the politruk angle of course comes in because collective action, union, "going own way", etc. all "dangerous" things
14:27 asciilifeform for bonus lul, often enuff in current reich the mandatorily embedded snitch operates entirely overtly
14:30 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-08-29 kanzure: so for at least a ~year many of us had regular "coffee meetings" with local area special agent
14:30 phf asciilifeform, i forgot if it was yours or mp's take that compters and internet were an acident that lizards didn't anticipate, was very dangerous development for a while, until got reintegrated into older project
14:30 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform's historic pov (and moar elaborately written about by e.g. alex rosov in ru space & others)
14:32 asciilifeform the microcomp revolution was 'mitigated' successfully by microshit in '90s; internet -- was not supposed to 'leak out' to plebes, these were to sit in aol cattle enclosure (and, observe, were finally herded back into it via arsebook et al ~10y later)
14:32 phf tell me, mr. anderson. what good is a phone call, if you're unable to speak?
14:34 phf http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-they-are-watching.png
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14:35 phf asciilifeform, links to relevant alex rosov? and also http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020988
14:35 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-19 12:55:35 asciilifeform[4]: also seems to support e.g. alex rosov's pov re subj -- 'they strangled rhodesia to show erryone that no, you aint allowed to build a functional, independent country from scratch, fuckyou'
14:35 asciilifeform phf: sadly had these on a since-deceased 'toilet' hdd; but prolly findable with elbow grease
14:36 asciilifeform d00d was positively obsessed with 'rhodesias', had lengthy series of novels re 'deliberate countries' which wage partizan war on the reich
14:37 asciilifeform (sadly, cosmic ray hit his brain at some pt and ended up imagining ukrs as 1 such, lol, asciilifeform quit reading)
14:37 signpost I'm yet unsatisfied with it being self-evident that elites should want this kind of world.
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14:37 signpost still lean towards some fundamental health catastrophe underlying.
14:37 phf also did you ever configure your port forwarding? i'm not getting any direct packets from you, and right now for whatever reason both deedbot and awt's station are doing something retarded, so dulapbot is suddenly my only connection to the outside
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14:37 phf asciilifeform, is there even any kind of entry point or lead? google is failing me
14:37 signpost "tell me, mr. anderson. what good is a dick if you're unable to fuck?"
14:37 asciilifeform perhaps interestingly, described 'they need a faux-pandemic' in 2018, with step-by-step algo
14:38 asciilifeform phf: loox like still inbiz
14:38 signpost wife and I make a game of spotting female fat distribution on men.
14:38 asciilifeform (warning: km's of woo)
14:39 phf asciilifeform, i read lj of a guy who believes that history, particularly ancient history was entirely fabricated and constructed by masonic vampire jews in 16th-19th centuries. km of woos ain't got nothing on me
14:40 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021146 << seems obv enuff that they do -- i.e. convert planet3 to brazil-style 'utopia', but with smaller expenditure on ammo & concertina wire than if populated by off-shelf healthy folx
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14:40 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:37:31 signpost: I'm yet unsatisfied with it being self-evident that elites should want this kind of world.
14:40 asciilifeform phf: i recall that 1 (and there's entire subculture, recently spread to usa even)
14:41 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-01-20#1021238 << https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com for professional entomologists only
14:41 dulapbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:38:40 phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i read lj of a guy who believes that history, particularly ancient history was entirely fabricated and constructed by masonic vampire jews in 16th-19th centuries. km of woos ain't got nothing on me
14:41 asciilifeform it gets amped by the usual suspects for same reason as 'martians fired disintegrator to do 9-11' culture
14:41 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-24 asciilifeform: signpost: 'martians' 'happened' to it
14:41 signpost jeez. pest-net is all sorts of fucked atm.
14:42 signpost receiving replays. and I currently have a direct connection to neither of ya.
14:42 phf signpost, i think it's because i was spitting truths above. shut it down!
14:42 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021156 << that they do is not sufficient explanation for why they do
14:42 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:40:19 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021146 << seems obv enuff that they do -- i.e. convert planet3 to brazil-style 'utopia', but with smaller expenditure on ammo & concertina wire than if populated by off-shelf healthy folx
14:42 asciilifeform signpost: from asciilifeform's debug log, loox like 1 of us talked 'out of phase' and stations with order buffering are letting things sit in buffer
14:43 asciilifeform (order buffer etc delenda est per new spec, but there aint anyone running new spec yet afaik)
14:43 signpost pedophilic vampirism seems one hell of a decayed state.
14:43 phf i think a stop gap solution would be to just set the order buffer time to 0, so that packets land immediately as they come
14:44 asciilifeform signpost: expand? ( why ~wouldn't~ the pedophilic vampires want to populate planet3 with decerebrated, sexless biorobots? eternal dream of slaver elites since t=-inf )
14:44 signpost yeah, went ahead and set that
14:45 signpost checked clock on station, fine
14:45 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021148 << config'd, but may be phucked again (and dynamic ip)
14:45 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:37:40 phf[jonsykkel|deedbot|awt]: also did you ever configure your port forwarding? i'm not getting any direct packets from you, and right now for whatever reason both deedbot and awt's station are doing something retarded, so dulapbot is suddenly my only connection to the outside
14:48 awt phf: I'll do this on my station shortly
14:48 phf awt ty!
14:49 signpost asciilifeform: take it from biology's perspective. run the globohomo thing forward; it results in a population crash that erases the industrial processes that keep the pedovampires in power
14:49 asciilifeform awt: which knob was this again ?
14:49 * asciilifeform vaguely recalls setting
14:49 signpost the lack of rational self-interest among rulers does not smell like rulers who are well.
14:49 awt asciilifeform: can't remember atm thus the 'shortly'
14:49 signpost they look like people projecting their own suicidality upon the world
14:49 signpost or in nietzsche's terms, those who wish revenge upon reality for their having existed
14:50 asciilifeform signpost: the crash in question strictly among the white folx with 'unreasonable' expectations (such as not living 7 to a room, or making use of hospitals, etc)
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14:50 * signpost back shortly
14:50 phf signpost, well, the question "why live?" hasn't been answered, and if god *is* dead, we ought to be really mad at him
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14:50 asciilifeform signpost: observe, 0 crash among the designated 'worker' untermenschen
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14:51 asciilifeform the bankmans spend 0 cycles on 'why live' puzzle -- difficult to end up scratching head 'why live' when snorting coke by the kilogram, surrounded by harem, on epstein islands
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14:51 phf or in other terms, why model airplane clubs, when you can just have a eloi watching netflix on android
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14:51 asciilifeform 'why live' is a q for the inmates.
14:52 awt asciilifeform: order_buffer_expiration_seconds (default is 120 seconds)
14:52 asciilifeform aa ty awt!
14:52 awt $knob order_buffer_expiration_seconds 0
14:52 awt lol
14:52 phf asciilifeform, that's not historically supported. why live is almost entirely a question at the very top of maslov's
14:53 awt Ok set to 0 here.
14:54 asciilifeform phf: the aristos only start 'why live'ing when coke tolerance sets in, then they go and take to swimming in vortex beach in costa rica etc
14:54 asciilifeform awt: ty, set to 0 nao
14:56 asciilifeform signpost: observe that, for most part, the davos-goers aint self-castrating, nor 'walmart fat', nor otherwise show the maculae
14:57 asciilifeform and at their feast there, not eating 'meal squares'(tm) or dried cockroaches
14:57 asciilifeform these -- for humans to eat.
14:59 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021191 << homo netflixicus has 0 concept of constructive activity, and similarly no one with-whom. may as well ask why vodka on indian reservation.
14:59 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:51:39 phf[awt|deedbot]: or in other terms, why model airplane clubs, when you can just have a eloi watching netflix on android
15:01 asciilifeform from lizard pov, white who expects to e.g. live in own house, is seen similarly to how 19th c american settler saw indian who expected to freely horse around hunting buffalo. i.e. 'annoying, entitled pest'
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15:02 asciilifeform ( see e.g. )
15:02 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-15 asciilifeform: ... from reich pov, plebes having savings is a bug, similarly to resistive losses in electric cable. 'pieces of yacht that got diverted'
15:06 asciilifeform ... from yachtman pov, collapse simply means 'squeeze'em harder', and 'apre moi le deluge'(tm)
15:06 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2021-09-27 asciilifeform: PeterL: both come from same root -- lizards' desire to keep their yachts, palaces, and cocaine despite a collapsing support base. i.e. same thing that happened in e.g. argentina. (or 1700s fr. for that matter. and plenty of other places.)
15:06 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-07 asciilifeform: oblig. su joak: 'father: vodka's gone up, son. son: father, does that mean you will drink less now? father: no, son, it means that now you will eat less!'
15:10 phf is the ideology of the deathcult the driving force, or the ideology is emergent from deathcult
15:11 phf but also when did this deathcult kick in
15:11 asciilifeform afaik they've been trying out various ideologies to set plebes against 1 anuther for 100+y, seeing 'what sticks' and experimenting
15:11 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-19 16:35:45 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1021071 << suspect that it's belly-bustingly funny to the perps (i.e. lizards). just as bear baiting not funny to the bears, aint trying to be, but to ~spectators~
15:13 phf yeah, but apre moi le deluge is not the default or the only way of going about things
15:14 phf you know you have king solomon, or alexander/philip, or "divine rights of kings", or …
15:15 asciilifeform at 1 time they had religious framework and >lifetime time horizon. afaik mostly evaporated, and replaced with 'go die today so i can die tomorrow'(tm)(r)(kolyma) default firmware
15:15 phf but then i'm not a strong believer in lizards specifically. lizards are kind of like an antichrist, a particular kind of failure mode
15:16 * asciilifeform iirc described previously, but 'lizards' are analogous to faraday's magnetic field lines. i.e. exist, but not as pictured in sf films, with actual scales etc
15:16 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-01-20#1021301 << which is evola's argument also "if god is dead, then it'll be all nihilism from now on"
15:16 asciilifeform existed for as long as agri-civ.
15:17 phf was giovanni di bicci de medici a lizard? :>
15:17 phf what about his son cosimo?
15:18 asciilifeform in same sense as pascal's 'pascaline' was 'a computer'
15:19 phf i kind of always thought that if at any point you've killed any one of your enemies with poison or dagger, that elevates you from the lizard status
15:19 dulapbot Logged on 2023-01-20 15:13:56 asciilifeform: at 1 time they had religious framework and >lifetime time horizon. afaik mostly evaporated, and replaced with 'go die today so i can die tomorrow'(tm)(r)(kolyma) default firmware
15:19 asciilifeform in asciilifeform's cosomography, 'lizard' is not same item as king, baron, etc. of old times, but concretely artifact of 20th c. when slave rebellion began to seem inevitable (to retake the fruits of industrial rev) and subset of elite chose secrecy as defense strategy
15:21 asciilifeform i.e. lizard not rules in a palace visited by public or issues decrees openly, but rather via curated meat puppets passed off as 'elite' ('presidents', 'ceo', etc)
15:22 asciilifeform plebes thereby can kill, or 'vote out', or 'cancel', etc. these 'elites' and nuffin interesting happens, identical replacements are brought in
15:22 phf i like your lizard cosmology
15:24 asciilifeform fwiw there were earlier attempts at 'transition to covert rule', the 18th c. masonic wankages, but at the time proved maladaptive (power base was still agri-physiocratic and impossible to hide in the sense of e.g. 'who controls' today's printing press brrr)
15:25 phf do you distinguish between lizards and dragons?
15:25 asciilifeform 'dragon' aint a bound symbol in asciilifeform's cosmography, so nfi
15:26 asciilifeform there are 'lizards'; 'sublizards'; and humans.
15:26 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-04-11 asciilifeform: fwiw in asciilifeform's cosmography, a sublizard is a 'human' who directly executes orders from lizard, while exposed to 'humans' in daily context
15:26 phf a dragon is a competent lizard
15:26 asciilifeform ( a 'sublizard' being a 'cutout' b/w lizards and humans )
15:27 * asciilifeform not presumes to rank lizards by competence, given as not directly visible, and no 'standard candela' as in sense used by astronomers to sort stars by size
15:27 phf like a dragon is a lizard that doesn't want its own house to fall down, as opposed to pure oportunism. "100 thousand will die, so that 100 million will live", as opposed to "i'll be in my bunker"
15:27 asciilifeform in asciilifeform's pov, the folx with identifiable bunkers and 'i'ma sit there' are subs
15:28 phf your brother paul is there, meet him on the docks. good luck, jc
15:29 asciilifeform and, while it is possible that somewhere at top of pyramid someone is working other than by 'pure opportunism', it aint obvious to naked eye from 'earth' that this is so
15:30 asciilifeform to naked eye seems as if all of'em are in '100 mil must die so that i can continue to get fresh strawberries flown in to my island 10y from nao' etc mode
15:31 asciilifeform ( but it aint about mega-killoffs ~per se~ -- also includes '250 mil untermenschen must also get born, and not expect to live to 50 or use indoor plumbing' etc at same time as '100mil ameri-suburbanites gotta die' )
15:32 phf when i mentioned we could put him on the priority list for the ambrosia vaccine he was so willing it was almost pathetic
15:32 asciilifeform ultimately the contest is still re control of human hands, and optimization of slave quality, just as 8k y ago
15:32 asciilifeform lolyes
15:32 asciilifeform see also pelevin's 'heads in jars' stories from recent yrs, fully expands on subj comedically
15:34 asciilifeform lizard programme aint identical to old-time monarch programme -- similar, yes, 'maintain pyramid shape and flow of goodies to the apex', but w/out the concept of 'legitimacy of rule', the latter -- obsolete
15:34 phf i don't know if i have an overarching cosmology like that. like i wouldn't be able to tell you if it's emergent, or if there's a cabal, or …
15:35 phf my attitude to the question of lizard is kind of like girl's attitude to supernatural "if we see a ghost in this forest at 3am, that would be awesome because it confirms the reality of it one way or another"
15:37 phf "oh cool, there are grownups in charge" :D
15:37 asciilifeform in former times, need for 'legitimacy' ritual and public throne limited 'laffer curve'(tm) (i.e. how much blood could drink from plebes)
15:38 phf "because up until this point it really looked like it's a bunch of lucky psycopathic idiots running around, caught up in the historic process, unable to affect any meaningful lasting change"
15:38 asciilifeform 20th c tech offered tempting promise of 'squeeze all'. orig. via concentration camp etc., later via 'soft' mechanisms
15:39 asciilifeform phf: nobody's seen an electron either, must point out, not only ghost
15:39 asciilifeform (before laughing, recall that this is an actual problem, it led to the uncontrolled proliferation of unseeable entities in 'modern' physics, i.e. the 'particle zoo' consisting largely of items which exist in fact strictly mathematically )
15:42 asciilifeform the ghost hunter is merely a physicist without (usually) the req'd brain mass or tooling, but with same fundamentally healthy human inclination to model
15:43 phf asciilifeform, i'm entirely ok with uncertainty, i'm a platonist
15:43 asciilifeform (and usually with psychological vulnerabilities to 'martian pushers' to keep him hunting ghost rather than sumthing that one could actually put a bullet in)
15:43 asciilifeform 'ok with uncertainty' is a++, but not means that cannot consider models.
15:44 phf i mean world being held together by the will of Dazhbog is also an acceptable approach. there always will be dragons, both in collective and in subjective
15:44 asciilifeform a model which successfully compresses known facts, and predicts new -- may still be a 'phlogiston' but still beats living shit outta 'i dun need a model, things Merely Happen By Will of Allah'(tm)
15:44 asciilifeform imho.
15:47 phf there's a cool hard scifi that i don't remember the name of, and frankly i can't even verbalize what's going on, but it has "experience reality at subatomic, planck's time levels" as a plot device
15:47 asciilifeform phf: there were several. australian, greg egan, had at least 1
15:48 asciilifeform d00d bakes a cheat device that lets him walk around 'uncollapsed' (in the story, 'copenhagen' qm turns out to be real)
15:48 phf yeap, schild's ladder
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15:55 phf you're too late and you can't do a damn thing about it! -- … except send you back to the people, in a body bag
16:05 phf i spilled my drink
~ 1 hours 41 minutes ~
17:46 asciilifeform was thinking of 'permutation city' iirc
~ 25 minutes ~
18:12 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021188 << "god is dead" means never was. so at what mad?
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18:12 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:50:38 phf[awt|deedbot]: signpost, well, the question "why live?" hasn't been answered, and if god *is* dead, we ought to be really mad at him
18:12 signpost his Antichrist made it pretty clear to me that he viewed gods as authored items.
18:13 signpost so not our stars, but ourselves, that we sit in a corpse rather than a better-authored god.
18:18 signpost the "why live" one's also ill-formed imho. like one has an alternative where they might unlive.
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18:20 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021189 << this arrogance where they can gracefully depopulate without unseating themselves, sure. go ahead.
18:20 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:50:39 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|awt|deedbot]: signpost: observe, 0 crash among the designated 'worker' untermenschen
18:21 signpost anyway, someone smarter than me needs to come along and complete nietzsche's critique of the western mind, because the contemporary mode is something like a soul which has been abandoned by god. which is ill-formed, insane.
18:23 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021190 << this is no picture of heaven, man. that's the thing.
18:23 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:51:33 asciilifeform[5]: the bankmans spend 0 cycles on 'why live' puzzle -- difficult to end up scratching head 'why live' when snorting coke by the kilogram, surrounded by harem, on epstein islands
18:23 signpost the guy's face isn't the picture of joy
18:24 signpost even a 100% hedonic evaluation of value in life does not put his at the pinnacle
18:25 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021273 << yeah, but that's a materliastic, rational view. on the archetypal, unexisted is the same as existed but died. the grief over such a death will still manifest as a trauma.
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18:25 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:12:15 signpost: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021188 << "god is dead" means never was. so at what mad?
18:27 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021277 << man, that's another materialistic, rational position. yes, one can't unlive, but this conclusion only leads to superficial "you're born anyway, so might as well enjoy it!" which is one step away from "live eat love". tell that this is somehow satisfying to your pysche
18:27 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:18:57 signpost: the "why live" one's also ill-formed imho. like one has an alternative where they might unlive.
18:27 signpost clearly this is not "just" over here.
18:27 signpost and yes, we're gonna have to go straight through the corpse and eat our way to the other side.
18:27 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021285 << further, a nihilist is mad that his father-god died-unexisted on him
18:27 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:25:07 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021273 << yeah, but that's a materliastic, rational view. on the archetypal, unexisted is the same as existed but died. the grief over such a death will still manifest as a trauma.
18:29 signpost where does the nihilist stand to make that evaluation?
18:29 phf ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsriu6a_ukw
18:30 signpost lol
18:31 signpost anyway, this thing where we authored a coherent firmware for our right brains seemed to work pretty well. our rulers seem immiserated. maybe they consider authoring one of those that doesn't immiserate *them*.
18:31 signpost they won't. but it's unclear their current lives are superior by their own standards.
18:34 signpost phf: I don't know that the materialist label sticks.
18:34 phf well, a nihilist is in a historic context. when an amerimutt looks up in a sistine chapel he necessarily feels anger, that's why amerimutt desided to destroy the whole world with woke
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18:35 signpost let god be real, and our culture destroyed its connection to him. the rebellion amounts to hatred of the freedom to make the turn.
18:35 signpost I don't disagree; I just think it needs to be said that this mutt has shit for brains at a fundamental level, and not just in output
18:36 signpost not just allowing itself to lazily internalize contradiction but aggressively demanding all follow.
18:37 phf i have no idea what the past three messages mean :)
18:38 signpost first one, how is someone claiming they hate that which does not exist for lacking the power to force them to believe it does anything but a parser error.
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18:38 signpost second, I'm not seeing as much light between your nihilist and the mutt.
18:38 signpost eh. you get it.
18:39 signpost from the top, why do our elites have faces that wear their *own* torment?
18:44 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021304 << well, my point is that it doesn't have to be rational, and it's not. like what's the objection, that it doesn't make sense to be mad at a dead god, because he never existed to begin with OR that the statement makes no sense OR that the statement is false?
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18:44 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:38:30 signpost: first one, how is someone claiming they hate that which does not exist for lacking the power to force them to believe it does anything but a parser error.
18:47 phf a less romanticist perspective on similar idea might be, "the entire western project is build on the foundation of the bible, if bible is false, then ???"
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18:49 phf 􏿽because something similar happened to russian after the collapse of soviet union. not only was communism is a lie, but (we find out) that ussr was pretty evil at times. a rational perspective might be "well, it was a grand and terrible project, but look we built rockets, educated a
18:49 phf 􏿽n giant country, built hospitals and factories, etc." but that's not the perspective the bulk of men take. the perspective is/was "what the fuck my life is a lie what do"
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~ 28 minutes ~
19:18 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021308 << objection's more me wondering why meditating on the "mad at dead god" concept doesn't produce a moment of enlightenment of the "doc, it hurts when I do this" variety.
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19:18 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:44:01 phf[deedbot|awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021304 << well, my point is that it doesn't have to be rational, and it's not. like what's the objection, that it doesn't make sense to be mad at a dead god, because he never existed to begin with OR that the statement makes no sense OR that the statement is false?
19:18 signpost clearly it's insufficient for most, regardless of social status and other variables.
19:19 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021310 << getting pretty satisfied with the observation that it worked, and investigating what specifically.
19:19 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:47:46 phf[deedbot]: a less romanticist perspective on similar idea might be, "the entire western project is build on the foundation of the bible, if bible is false, then ???"
19:20 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021312 << right, how such a mind becomes a ruling elite, and stays stuck in this, entirely escapes me.
19:20 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 18:49:48 phf[deedbot]: 􏿽n giant country, built hospitals and factories, etc." but that's not the perspective the bulk of men take. the perspective is/was "what the fuck my life is a lie what do"
19:24 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021313 << it does though, but the various attempts have been insufficient, unstable and chaotic in all kinds of ways.
19:24 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 19:18:09 signpost: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021308 << objection's more me wondering why meditating on the "mad at dead god" concept doesn't produce a moment of enlightenment of the "doc, it hurts when I do this" variety.
19:25 signpost it's like the west produced its one zen koan, and then shot itself in the head on the spot, lol.
19:26 phf i mean you had classical communism and fascism
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19:26 signpost right, these are pretty valiant efforts to reboot meaning, outcome aside.
19:26 phf then you had all kinds of attempts, my favorite is of course saganism, but you had for example post-hippie "concensus buddhism" which is where i think wokeism comes from, etc.
19:33 phf all of those attempts were compromised by nihilism, turning them into death cults
19:33 phf like saganism, started with feynman "a scientist can appreciate the flower from its intricate biological and biochemical perspectives" or sagan's own "universe is woah", and it turned into a scientism, which is a pandemic, renewables and climate change death cult
19:34 phf pest net is all kinds of broken today
19:40 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021128 << chuckled at this
19:40 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:12:02 phf[deedbot]: like in that old joke, one russian is decent guy, two russians are best friends, three russians are a revolutionary cell with a traitor
19:43 crtdaydreams !!help
19:43 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
19:43 crtdaydreams !!peer crtdaydreams
19:46 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021140 << all the fonts in the world and that's what you choose? -_-
19:46 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:34:39 phf[deedbot]: http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-they-are-watching.png
19:48 phf lol
19:48 phf crtdaydreams, it was a joke at some point, and then it stuck. right before i switched to this ungodly combo it looked like this http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-as-she-sail.png
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19:49 signpost crtdaydreams: do the peer thing in the IRC side for now, haven't brought it over here.
19:49 signpost will do, but no time atm.
19:50 crtdaydreams signpost last attempt deedbot didn't respond to !!help in pm
19:51 signpost somebody else just used the peer command in the IRC net the other day, oughta work
19:51 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2023-01-18#1114485
19:51 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2023-01-18 unpx: !!peer unpx
19:53 signpost phf: is it a given that humans need a "why live"?
19:53 signpost stick a guy's head in a bucket of water and most of them want to live.
19:54 phf signpost, hur hur, gotcha!
19:54 signpost this isn't a throwaway comment.
19:54 phf leave a guy doing something day in day out and he kind of starts questioning why he's doing it, always
19:55 phf the whole fall from grace narrative is about the loss of the inherent meaning, and being made to question
19:55 phf i mean, that's why you have victorian "noble savage" , or the 1970s rethinking of hunter gatherers
19:56 signpost you know, you routinely claim I'm disrespectful while being disrespectful by default. western man wanting the entire cosmos to ring out with purpose for his wee self might be most of the problem.
19:56 signpost it may never ring out like that again.
19:57 signpost and good riddance, the thing wasn't built for us. we happened in it.
19:57 phf yeah, but "stick a guy's head in a bucket" is an obviously gotcha comment!
19:57 signpost it's not. it's a point to the baser urge far beneath the medium which contains the argument for why live
19:57 signpost and if that isn't flowing up to drive the movement of the words, the underlying thing's probably broken.
19:59 phf i don't know how that follows. "why live" is not ever about "why continue living", which is obviously a biological prerogative
19:59 signpost but what is it?
19:59 signpost it's not a rhetorical question. what's in there?
20:01 phf why live is a shortcut question for "why create, maintain, enforce etc. a particular personally meaningful approach to life in a consistent and sustained manner"
20:01 signpost *if* I want to live, I can get a lot of sane ethical notions which necessarily fall out of that as a consequence provided I try to well-define "I" and "live"
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20:01 signpost it's the only solid ground I see in there, to proceed outward from what's unavoidable.
20:02 signpost when the lord appears to me I'll have to reevaluate, but he wont because I'd just tell him it's my right brain re-establishing dominance over my left anyway.
20:02 signpost phf: what's personally meaningful? drives behavior in some self-sustaining way. get's a volitional chain reaction going?
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20:03 crtdaydreams signpost: deedbots generated an invalid key
20:04 signpost wut
20:04 signpost for pest? or you can't decrypt its output?
20:04 crtdaydreams for pest
20:04 crtdaydreams it's too short
20:05 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021361 << i don't think that's true, and there are several reason why not, if you want to explore that direction
20:05 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 20:01:19 signpost: *if* I want to live, I can get a lot of sane ethical notions which necessarily fall out of that as a consequence provided I try to well-define "I" and "live"
20:05 crtdaydreams er it doesn't look like a pestkey at all infact
20:05 signpost of course I do.
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20:05 signpost crtdaydreams: first report of this, weird.
20:06 signpost lemme see what it farted into its own deeb
20:06 crtdaydreams it's just given me a hex number
20:06 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021364 << personally meaningful meaning that you can derive meaning out of it. like if you went to chop wood , it is to make fire. "i chop wood to make fire" if you went to chop wood, it is because you want to destroy "i'm become death" etc. the narration around it
20:06 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 20:02:56 signpost: phf: what's personally meaningful? drives behavior in some self-sustaining way. get's a volitional chain reaction going?
20:07 signpost crtdaydreams: encrypt and gpg me the output pls
20:07 crtdaydreams can just send on pest?
20:07 signpost don't see why not. I'm gonna trash the key anyway
20:07 signpost sure pm
20:09 * signpost brb
20:09 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021373 << whatever ethical notions you extract from wanting to leave will also be product of your entire western civ makeup
20:09 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 20:05:36 signpost: of course I do.
20:09 phf *wanting to live rather
20:14 phf your chains of causality themselves would be shaped by western logic, and in whatever reasoning you're going to have a variety of confounding variables to your thinking
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20:16 phf 􏿽so you can get a lof of "sane" ethical notions that "necessarily" fall out it, but both parts that i put in quotes will be fully compromised. as an armchair exercise it might give a solid vision, that another western similarly inclined individual might even share, but everything el
20:16 phf 􏿽se about it will lack any kind of universality
20:18 phf i don't even think that you can extract some kind of personal principles out of it, because they will fully depend on your environment also. like if you do that exercise from a safety of texan homestead as opposed to doing same exercise but you suddenly found yourself in eastern ukrain or in somalia
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20:19 phf it's a separate question of whether or not you agree with this, but that's also the major reason why death of god is such a big deal
~ 49 minutes ~
21:08 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021387 << I think it's a fair criticism that what I think is obviously worthwhile about being alive is ambient "god created the X and it was good".
21:08 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 20:14:38 phf[awt|deedbot]: your chains of causality themselves would be shaped by western logic, and in whatever reasoning you're going to have a variety of confounding variables to your thinking
21:08 signpost however I can't see where to stand to say it's not good.
~ 26 minutes ~
21:35 signpost suppose I teach my kid the stories *and* I leave out entirely whether they're true.
21:35 signpost which I plan to do.
21:36 signpost why would this have less impact than teaching "ant and the grasshopper" etc
21:37 signpost finding myself pretty comfortable with jordan peterson's inquiry into whether their taking the form of fundamental truths of reality is true enough.
21:38 signpost this might be what god is also, something true about reality we rendered in dreamlike terms.
21:38 signpost could also be humans eat guns/pills/plastic until there aren't those left that are unsatisfied with ^
21:41 signpost it'd be something like rejecting aztec mathematics on the grounds that the faces of the gods used to denote numbers don't exist.
21:47 signpost !!help
21:47 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
21:53 * asciilifeform entirely satisfied with, e.g., 'allfather odin said: die not the straw death' w/out requiring the character to actually exist & answer prayers etc
21:54 asciilifeform for that matter, the believers themselves had rather complicated relationship with his existence (given the 'death of the gods' story, where universe reverts to frozen nuffin)
21:56 asciilifeform (fwiw there may've been other mythologies which specified birth ~and death~ of the gods, and left the temporal relationship of the present to subj unspecified -- but asciilifeform not seen'em)
21:58 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021390 << ah. I'm not claiming universal shoulds exist in my skull, nor do I suppose they can ever be reinstantiated.
21:58 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 20:18:52 phf[deedbot|awt]: i don't even think that you can extract some kind of personal principles out of it, because they will fully depend on your environment also. like if you do that exercise from a safety of texan homestead as opposed to doing same exercise but you suddenly found yourself in eastern ukrain or in somalia
21:59 signpost I may be so disagreeable in character that this does not seem like a problem. in Ukraine I'd try to not get dead, and probably get dead.
21:59 signpost in Texas I'll fart around on a laptop with a glass of wine
22:00 signpost and the inability to reinstantiate the transcendent axiom might be a catastrophic blow. since I have no alternatives, I poke around in my own meat and in my humble interface with reality for what moves the sails.
22:07 phf signpost, transcendental beliefs are, and i can't remember the right word right now, all encompasing, that is they represent the totality of experience
22:08 phf they have a circular dependency graph
22:09 phf so like they accomodate/have something for both people like josemaria escriva, a normy, a tramp, a criminal, etc.
22:10 phf so like when gotcha people say "oh you saying you're only good because sky daddy told you so", the answer is "fuck off"
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22:10 phf because i might be an asshole who's afraid of hell, or i might be a genuine article catholic priest struggling with the way my whole life, but there's full range coverage
22:11 phf and there's a circular dependency graph, a criminal who found the way because of fear, sustains to some extent a saint, who found his way through inner struggle
22:12 phf now, the trick with "replace god with X" is to find a similar kind of coverage, because the more people are uncovered the worse your overal situation is
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22:13 phf the most obvious issue with bible as fables, or with fables in general is "fuck off, dad, i'm doing onlyfans"
22:13 phf and there's no recourse
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22:17 signpost path out of the corpse of god might involve a hell of a lot of death filtering away these.
22:17 signpost appears to be where we're at.
22:18 signpost this isn't me giving a tough-guy speech. don't see another option on the table.
22:19 signpost this is at least where nietzsche left things, that gods, culture, and the soul are authored items and only men who can author without going mad will survive.
22:19 signpost and, he went mad.
22:33 phf ride the tiger
22:39 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021122 << I feel like this is too easily boiled down to "muh commies" sure it makes sense linearly, but it's missing something and I can't put my finger on it.
22:39 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 14:05:59 phf[awt|deedbot]: and i think that this internalized demoralization in the west and in us is instilled since early childhood with various "share your toys", "let john play", and various other forms of be nice
22:40 phf your framing, not mine
~ 35 minutes ~
23:16 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021415 << that's interesting because it assumes a common moral alignment, both parties have a not dissimilar view of what is right and wrong, this discourse brings to mind Is God a Tao?.
23:16 bitbot Logged on 2023-01-20 22:10:00 phf[deedbot|awt]: so like when gotcha people say "oh you saying you're only good because sky daddy told you so", the answer is "fuck off"
23:18 crtdaydreams I'm underqualified to make any contributions though. I'm still mostly unfamiliar with the nietzchean "god ded" onion below the skin.
23:21 crtdaydreams The best I can do (which imo more valuable to reflect on) is "why die?" more or less moving on to "memento mori"
23:24 signpost night all.
23:25 phf signpost, laters
23:25 crtdaydreams nini o/
23:30 crtdaydreams It's rather evident the lizards are crawling after some form of digital immortality and/or trancendance, if just soley to postpone death. Whilist "memento mori" is a more noble perspective imo, a base fear can be a pretty powerful motivator.
23:31 crtdaydreams In that sense, also a death cult. :)
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