00:00 |
asciilifeform |
similarly, e.g. asciilifeform's peh machine also worx. problem is on other end. |
00:00 |
verisimilitude |
I've built software; I'm not delusional all day. |
00:00 |
* |
signpost returns covered in sawdust and stain to pile of logs, oh boy |
00:00 |
asciilifeform |
wb signpost |
00:00 |
signpost |
good evening asciilifeform |
00:03 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086107 << this is the confounding factor at all levels, that for political reasons, sane standardization of interfaces is thwarted. |
00:03 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 13:02:35 mangol: a lot of the layering in MS/Apple/Linux is redundant. if we could have a system where only the communication protocols are redundant, and the core is refactored such that each concern is addressed only once, that'd be ideal |
00:03 |
signpost |
later in this thread it is illustrated why. |
00:04 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086113 << they're all solipsistic narcissists which require external motivation to collaborate, either great wealth or pain. hopefully both. |
| |
↖ |
00:04 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 13:06:06 mangol: if we could get all the Lisp and ML people working together on one system, it'd be a solved problem |
00:05 |
signpost |
they don't get into computing because it is beautiful, but because it's a way to hide from the world while thinking oneself atop it. |
00:06 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086112 << ah yep. |
00:06 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 13:05:35 mangol: but these people can't work together to save their lives |
00:07 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: the folx who went in 'because beautiful' aint doing so much better either. there's no way around fact that certain things require serious resources (and it even discourages attempts at items which don't. e.g. pest could've easily existed in 1990s; why didn't it?) |
00:07 |
signpost |
in a functioning society hopefully artistry reaches its peak in engineering. |
00:08 |
signpost |
but yes, definitely need the *whole society* to have what that's worth doing, such that mind-amplification is needed. |
00:08 |
verisimilitude |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086352 These insults are getting personal. |
00:08 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 20:04:09 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086113 << they're all solipsistic narcissists which require external motivation to collaborate, either great wealth or pain. hopefully both. |
00:08 |
signpost |
would you rather it weren't true, sweetheart? |
00:08 |
signpost |
it isn't so scary to be wrong; I do it all the time. |
00:09 |
verisimilitude |
I only mentioned it as mock offense. |
00:09 |
signpost |
given as received, lol |
00:09 |
verisimilitude |
Yes, the purpose was to get a laugh. |
00:09 |
* |
signpost believes in the time-honored tradition of men giving each other shit as much as possible. |
| |
↖ |
00:10 |
asciilifeform |
^ |
00:10 |
verisimilitude |
On that note, signpost, I don't believe great collaboration be needed. |
00:10 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: is how things worked, back when they worked |
00:10 |
verisimilitude |
One man who gets the computer working well enough can replace thousands. |
00:10 |
signpost |
on that we quite agree. |
00:11 |
verisimilitude |
I'm slowly foccussing on writing correct software; compare that to Linux, which is broken in millions of uninteresting ways, but has a lot of support. |
00:11 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: consider interesting fate of k. zuse -- who built a working comp for the last reich, in his mother's kitchen. 0 uptake, eventually smashed by british bomb and that was it |
00:11 |
verisimilitude |
I'll just need to be more fortunate than he. |
00:12 |
asciilifeform |
a++ plan lol |
00:13 |
verisimilitude |
Also, while it's on my mind, I've had two offers to work for others fail, signpost. If I could get some Bitcoin, I'd make an address and get to work. |
00:13 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086137 << seems either can work if the total production rule space of possible inputs cannot cause the machine to crash. |
00:13 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 14:39:01 mangol: the claim that visual programming can avoid degenerating into a "tower of babel" like text-based programming is interesting. i'm skeptical. |
00:14 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: what kinda work are you willing to do ? worth putting in log imho |
00:14 |
verisimilitude |
http://verisimilitudes.net/commissions |
00:14 |
* |
signpost will say if work comes up, nothing needed atm |
00:14 |
asciilifeform |
404 |
00:14 |
verisimilitude |
http://verisimilitudes.net/commission |
00:14 |
asciilifeform |
a |
00:14 |
verisimilitude |
I've never linked to it before. |
00:15 |
asciilifeform |
the 2nd link worx. ty verisimilitude |
00:15 |
verisimilitude |
It's no issue. |
00:15 |
verisimilitude |
I wrote it long ago; notice it reads as if a normal person wrote it. |
00:15 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086138 << the challenge is that the populist mob moves the turds faster than you can modify your adapter. |
00:15 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 14:39:53 mangol: my approach to babel = turd polishing, once again. try to get existing langs working together, coordinating stuff that doesn't have to differ |
00:16 |
* |
signpost has chosen to freeze a particular gentoo linux in vpatches, then to ratchet the thing down to the absolute minimum necessary to sit atop (and build) a linux kernel |
00:17 |
signpost |
has its own problems, but hardware drifts a little more slowly. |
00:17 |
* |
signpost still has g4 macs in service. |
00:18 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086143 << see: dataflow |
| |
↖ |
00:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 14:43:17 jonsykkel: never understood why no programing langs have concept of a wire. for wireing shit together like u do with hardware |
00:19 |
asciilifeform |
verilog incidentally very much has 'concept of wire' |
00:19 |
asciilifeform |
in fact even called... 'wire'. |
00:21 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086154 << very much want to see a proper hypertext system with transclusion and zui. holy graph of knowledge. |
00:21 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 14:49:08 mangol: FWIW Jef Raskin (of Canon Cat) did a bunch of experiments with zoomable user interfaces (ZUI) with excellent results, was convinced those are the future |
00:21 |
signpost |
editable right there in the same program, of course. |
00:23 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086165 << we should be sharing ASTs with each other, not characters. why do I care how you want to represent the AST? |
| |
↖ |
00:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 14:56:57 verisimilitude: It disgusts me that equality, addition, multiplication, and select others are so privileged so as to be given slots in the character sets, whereas other notations aren't made so omnipresent and innate. The decimal digits are included in this disgust; such things shouldn't be embedded into foundations.'' |
00:23 |
signpost |
maybe I like mine to be interpretive dance. none of your business! |
00:25 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086182 << (nods emphatically) |
00:25 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 15:09:01 mangol: the obvious way to start in visual programming is to make window dressing for lisp macros (i.e. each macro call is shown as a user-friendly GUI widget) |
00:25 |
signpost |
there is no difference between this and writing UI for *any other data model* |
00:26 |
signpost |
oughta be a functional transform to and from AST |
00:26 |
signpost |
said otherwise, every UI state corresponds to one precise statement in a production rule space |
00:26 |
signpost |
*grammar |
00:29 |
* |
signpost worked for a while on precisely this proggy for a failed startup. you'd feed it an arbitrary EBNF, and it'd give you an interface against which to code a visual representation of statements in that grammar. |
00:29 |
signpost |
we even did some experiments with autogenerating the UI. ours was crappy, but could be done better. |
00:30 |
signpost |
wasn't the typical lego-block UI, looked more like a machine. |
00:30 |
signpost |
best one we did was a SQL query editor. |
00:32 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086213 << one addressing space for all knowledge and hierarchy of caches (puffs doob) |
00:32 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 15:25:41 mangol: pervasive checkpointing should be here any decade now |
00:33 |
signpost |
this "files and directories" thing on disk is as skeuomorphic as microsoft bob |
00:34 |
signpost |
should just be a cache of the stuff stored in the signpost namespace, plus whatever other namespaces interest me. |
00:37 |
signpost |
https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html << for folks that want to try genera |
00:39 |
verisimilitude |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086402 The idea remains vague compared to tabular programming, as I mention, but an AST is insufficient. The AST for a C language program is still a C language program. |
00:39 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 20:22:23 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086165 << we should be sharing ASTs with each other, not characters. why do I care how you want to represent the AST? |
00:40 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: actually the editor I described was written as sql tables. |
00:40 |
signpost |
we made sql eat itself. |
00:40 |
signpost |
was fucking painful, but just because of the language involved. the abstract model was elegant. |
00:40 |
verisimilitude |
May I read about it anywhere? |
00:41 |
signpost |
I think the guy's still at it here |
00:41 |
signpost |
open sourced the thing |
00:42 |
verisimilitude |
I want a program to be a true work of art. I want to be able to hang printed representations of my programs on the walls. |
00:42 |
* |
signpost hasn't spoken to him in years, but was a fun walk for a while. |
00:42 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: hey, they do it with bridges and buildings. |
00:43 |
signpost |
computing's still making mud huts, but someday. |
00:44 |
verisimilitude |
The idea behind the high-level language was to truly allow the programmer to define his own notation. |
00:45 |
verisimilitude |
Imagine the original APL by Ken Iverson. |
00:45 |
verisimilitude |
Imagine everyone having the freedom Ken Iverson had. |
00:46 |
verisimilitude |
Even the decimal digits wouldn't have privileged symbols. |
00:46 |
signpost |
in the limit, one oughta feel they are thinking-with the item, mechanised daydreams. not there yet. |
00:48 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086278 << nope, entirely wrong reason to simplify computing. |
00:48 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 18:46:20 mats: why do you think we need an os after collapse |
00:48 |
signpost |
you need a bigger gang than the gangs next to you, is what you need in collapse. |
00:48 |
signpost |
only reason to work to refine computing is if it helps avoid getting there. |
00:52 |
* |
signpost still thinks a global, distributed "gang" is possible with the correct tools. |
00:55 |
verisimilitude |
The USG already exists. |
00:56 |
* |
signpost doesn't preclude them from joining the wot, even. |
00:59 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086313 << it is this precariousness that makes it unlikely, though. |
| |
↖ |
00:59 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 19:42:34 asciilifeform: to return upstack -- there's precious little in the way of an audience for 'machines for collapse'. rich folx -- who could actually make the ball roll -- seem preoccupied with moving to bananistans (where will have to learn to like bananas to exclusion of all else; or, if luck fails, eaten to supplement diet of somebody who doesn't) ; those not rich -- generally preoccupied with moar mundane things, e.g. h |
01:00 |
* |
signpost more interested in there being demonstrated sanity at the point the other thing breaks. one doesn't have to help it break. |
01:01 |
signpost |
but any of us surviving "the churn" if it comes will make us different people than went in. who knows what happens then. |
01:03 |
signpost |
probably places which subsist at a lower level will end up ahead. maybe 0.1% of americans know how to kill an animal. how many of those know how to clean and eat it without making themselves ill? |
| |
↖ |
01:05 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086317 << verisimilitude this is where you lose the opportunity to make a worthwhile point by leaving the substance inside your head. |
01:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 19:48:17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086275 << would e.g. ftp make moar sense ? or what's the implication ? |
01:05 |
signpost |
could've said "what, we're going to do http chunk reassembly now? thought we didn't want fragmentation at the IP level, let alone way up here" |
01:06 |
signpost |
then the other guy says he meant a broader request/response mechanism, perhaps using yes, a browser as a stopgap UI. |
01:10 |
* |
signpost considers this a primary mechanism in a republic, the social constellation of balanced counterpressure. |
01:10 |
signpost |
see also: golden age roman literature |
01:11 |
signpost |
upstack, should just do a DHT on it, ask peers for $hash |
| |
↖ |
01:11 |
signpost |
this gives a hypertext system, wares, whatever. |
01:11 |
signpost |
index chunks for search also go in the DHT |
01:12 |
signpost |
that bit isn't as trivial, worth research and thought. |
01:12 |
* |
signpost burps, satisfying logs |
01:22 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086448 << there's enuff meat in forest for maybe 0.001, lol |
01:22 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 21:03:08 signpost: probably places which subsist at a lower level will end up ahead. maybe 0.1% of americans know how to kill an animal. how many of those know how to clean and eat it without making themselves ill? |
01:22 |
asciilifeform |
(optimistically, and if 'each other' also incl. in 'meat') |
01:24 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086444 << imho e.g. this is moar immed.-term boojum than full-scale 'eat tree bark' tho |
01:24 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 20:58:45 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086313 << it is this precariousness that makes it unlikely, though. |
01:24 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-04 15:43:25 asciilifeform: (3) country-wide lan in place of actual internet (north kr; ru during 'practice drills for ww3') |
| |
~ 1 hours 54 minutes ~ |
03:19 |
crtdaydreams |
"Some people never go crazy, What truly horrible lives they must live."- Charles Bukowski |
| |
~ 42 minutes ~ |
04:02 |
vex |
signpost. if you want cool pirate hat, buy a new stetson and come to oz for a couple of weeks. |
04:07 |
vex |
it'll get fucked up |
04:13 |
vex |
funny thing is, if you fly in to melbourne with a fresh one; they'll look at you funny. if it's got bullet holes and associated naughty, cool as bro |
04:18 |
vex |
we generally get akubras, so a stetson would be a nice gif |
04:27 |
vex |
crtdaydreams, your xyz is 403 |
04:29 |
vex |
i'm not html expert. i spent days writing expert gotos in c64 basic, write to tape and expand tommorrow |
04:32 |
verisimilitude |
Hello again, vex. |
04:32 |
verisimilitude |
How vexing thy words can be. |
04:32 |
vex |
ah, the etho doeth flow in thine hema |
04:33 |
vex |
it's a curse |
04:33 |
vex |
*mine? |
04:34 |
verisimilitude |
What? |
04:37 |
vex |
*etoh |
04:37 |
vex |
it's not new information |
04:38 |
verisimilitude |
I agree. |
04:41 |
vex |
your output is also a little bit unruly changeable |
04:43 |
vex |
whats the mp joke? |
04:43 |
verisimilitude |
He finally learned how to exit vi. |
04:44 |
vex |
idgi |
04:44 |
verisimilitude |
He died. |
04:44 |
verisimilitude |
He's a former vi user. |
04:44 |
vex |
what's it like ctrl/rum |
04:44 |
verisimilitude |
It was funnier when I first thought of it, but this context isn't too kind towards it. |
04:45 |
verisimilitude |
No, I believe it's :q. |
04:45 |
vex |
hanbot's looking trim and terrific |
04:52 |
vex |
no more leftovers |
05:03 |
verisimilitude |
Care for a better joke? |
05:03 |
vex |
of course |
05:03 |
verisimilitude |
I've not put this one on my jokes page yet. |
05:04 |
verisimilitude |
What should one call a group of homosexuals, all of whom agree with one another? |
05:04 |
verisimilitude |
An HIVmind. |
05:05 |
vex |
I chortled |
05:05 |
verisimilitude |
I'm glad. |
05:07 |
verisimilitude |
I thought of this joke after being kicked from an IRC channel I'd joined, after they went through my work and called me a bigot; I was acting unawares it was a den of faggotry until that point. |
05:07 |
verisimilitude |
Care to see the logs of that, I suppose? |
05:07 |
vex |
just tell me the joke bitch |
05:07 |
verisimilitude |
There's no joke this time. |
05:08 |
verisimilitude |
No, I thought of the joke I'd already told, vex. |
05:08 |
vex |
nevermind. i get it |
05:09 |
vex |
just like pest, whats already been said |
05:09 |
vex |
doesn't bear repeating |
05:10 |
verisimilitude |
It's a shame, really; I try to branch out of my usual venues, and walk into a den of homosexuals. |
05:11 |
verisimilitude |
So much of the Internet is a cess pit. |
05:11 |
vex |
hey. oyu haven't been to siam yet |
05:11 |
vex |
relax |
05:11 |
verisimilitude |
I hate the idea that I already be everywhere worth being. |
05:12 |
verisimilitude |
Explain ``siam''. |
05:12 |
vex |
now known as thailand |
05:13 |
verisimilitude |
I'd a relative who lived there, I believe. |
05:13 |
verisimilitude |
He didn't discuss it much. |
05:16 |
vex |
log deltetes |
05:18 |
verisimilitude |
What? |
05:20 |
vex |
nothing. |
05:25 |
verisimilitude |
How vexing. |
| |
~ 2 hours 58 minutes ~ |
08:23 |
crtdaydreams |
vex: brain fog. productivity f-- the whole existence of re: CollapseOS is really fucking depressing ngl |
08:25 |
crtdaydreams |
Read that in the morning and over the day I had a few hours to myself and time to think. Honestly CollapseOS is best-case scenario. |
08:26 |
crtdaydreams |
Kinda hit home how fucked the economy is, and what times ahead are going to really be like. |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 5 hours 24 minutes ~ |
13:51 |
mangol |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086523 << if the internet splinters, it'll be even harder than now to find information, and esoteric info hardest of all |
| |
↖ |
13:51 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 04:26:17 crtdaydreams: Kinda hit home how fucked the economy is, and what times ahead are going to really be like. |
13:52 |
mangol |
that makes it even more pressing to curate information into archives now that it's still doable |
| |
↖ |
13:53 |
mangol |
we should make a big archive of all the "Right Thing" computer literature we can find |
13:54 |
mangol |
even if the internet stays in ~one piece, that kind of info is in danger of being lost to time anyway, so the work isn't lost |
13:55 |
mangol |
work isn't lost = work isn't wasted |
13:58 |
PeterL |
hey mangol, I have been wondering how to interpret your handle, is it like first initial last name (M. Angol), name and last initial (Mango L.), or a mangled form of the English word "magle"? |
13:58 |
mangol |
lol. Mango L. is the intent. a friend gave it to me |
14:00 |
mangol |
my first name is lassi which is vexing (sorry, couldn't resist to continue the pun) to pronounce. the right pronounciation is as in "mango lassi". that's where the nick came from |
14:01 |
mangol |
lassi is the finnish equivalent of larry |
| |
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~ |
15:31 |
PeterL |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-19#1085827 << Mormons tentacles reach everywhere, even penetrated here >:) |
15:31 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-19 00:50:27 signpost: mats: those entertaining logs failed at what mormons could pull off, consider. |
15:32 |
PeterL |
but it might be useful to consider why we are successful - I can't be sure exactly, but I have been trying to think of it the past few days |
15:33 |
PeterL |
we do have some aspects that have been at least somewhat praised here from time to time - hierachial organization, division into groups of roughly dunbar number, the girls learn to bake a pie |
15:35 |
asciilifeform |
PeterL: iirc mormon 'vatican' also plays role of a hedge fund. prolly helps |
15:35 |
PeterL |
and there is an expectation of personal investment that ties one into the group moreso than other groups manage |
15:36 |
asciilifeform |
they're extremely well organized, and stealthily. asciilifeform once ended up in a salt mine where took almost a whole yr to find out that ~only mormons promoted (or treated w/ any respect whatsoever) |
15:37 |
PeterL |
heh, seems unusual being where you are as opposed to UT or surrounding |
15:37 |
asciilifeform |
right, was surprising |
15:37 |
asciilifeform |
but not utterly surprising, they have a mega-cathedral here and evidently the numbers |
15:39 |
PeterL |
Actually, town where I live has a higher-than-average mormon population because one got into the Dow Chemical management and then spent a couple decades recruting from the BYU business school |
| |
~ 25 minutes ~ |
16:04 |
* |
signpost has a utilitarian view of organizing principles of an effective cult. didn't much "believe" in bsdm either. |
16:04 |
signpost |
proof is in the girls baking pie |
16:05 |
signpost |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086526 << >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086455 |
16:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 09:51:59 mangol: that makes it even more pressing to curate information into archives now that it's still doable |
16:05 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-20 21:10:39 signpost: upstack, should just do a DHT on it, ask peers for $hash |
16:11 |
mangol |
signpost: hash-addressed archive is exactly what i've been thinking about |
16:11 |
whaack |
!w poll |
16:12 |
watchglass |
Polling 15 nodes... |
16:12 |
watchglass |
94.176.238.102:8333 : Could not connect! |
16:12 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
16:12 |
watchglass |
54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.111s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.090s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.157s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
16:12 |
watchglass |
54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.288s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.331s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.281s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=728375 (Operator: whaack) |
16:12 |
watchglass |
75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect! |
16:12 |
watchglass |
103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.588s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=728375 |
16:12 |
watchglass |
103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.491s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=350670 (Operator: whaack) |
16:12 |
whaack |
!e height |
16:12 |
trbexplorer |
whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-height, view-address, view-utxos, view-balance, view-block, view-raw-block, view-tx, view-raw-tx, push |
16:12 |
whaack |
!e view-height |
16:12 |
trbexplorer |
block_height: 728375 |
16:12 |
trbexplorer |
mins_since_last_block: 7 |
16:13 |
watchglass |
143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.) |
16:16 |
mangol |
signpost: we should cook something up |
16:17 |
mangol |
is gopher usable for fetching content by hash? the protocol is not optimal, but it's simple, and it's there |
16:22 |
* |
signpost oughta write up what's in his head, but would probably be inappropriate to graft a connection-based request/response protocol to Pest. |
16:22 |
signpost |
mangol: http://trinque.org/2022/02/19/online-codes-in-python-wip/ << I wrote this (yet incomplete) implementation of a fountain code that's probably useful here. |
16:25 |
signpost |
quick sketch would be something like the following. my node sends (request hash) over pest as a new message type. this flood-fills over the network, and nodes that have the hash locally reply with (offer hash) if they feel like it. |
16:25 |
signpost |
(perhaps this involves whether they're currently servicing someone else's request, whatever it may be. |
16:25 |
signpost |
) |
16:25 |
PeterL |
signpost: would you set up a separate pest network for the DHT-requests, or would it somehow ride on top of the network people are using to chat? |
16:25 |
signpost |
new message type |
16:26 |
* |
signpost left off that the offer oughta come with an OTP. |
16:26 |
mangol |
oh yeah, flood routing is an interesting feature re: putting something DHT-like on top of pest |
16:27 |
PeterL |
would there be a second message from the requestor to say it is complete? (and would time out eventually if no completed-message arrives?) |
16:27 |
* |
mangol plans to invest heavily in content-addressable everything during the next few years |
16:27 |
signpost |
my node then sends (retrieve hash otp port) to as many nodes as it wants, and those nodes may then respond with a fountain-code stream of udp packets to that port. |
16:28 |
signpost |
nice thing about the fountain code is that the sending nodes don't have to coordinate with where they start generating blocks as long as they use the same params for the encoder |
16:28 |
signpost |
they just pick a random offset each. |
16:29 |
signpost |
probably agreeing on encoder params requires additional steps. one could hardcode them to start, and assume that the channel between is not very lossy. usually true. later one could try to discover lossiness with test transfers, see how many packets are dropped of a given sequence. |
16:29 |
signpost |
were we on radio, that'd probably be desirable |
16:30 |
signpost |
mangol: yep, good wartime practice. |
16:30 |
PeterL |
so the actual file transfer is not done over pest, just the request? |
16:32 |
signpost |
PeterL: perhaps entirely within pest, and sent as DM rather than rebroadcast to everyone |
16:33 |
PeterL |
maybe have another message type that is the file transfer (like a DM, it is not rebraodcast)? |
16:36 |
mangol |
IRC has CTCP and DCC which were bolted on as afterthoughts. why not do similar things from the start in pest |
16:36 |
mangol |
could even implement /me messages lol |
16:36 |
mangol |
most critical wartime feature |
16:36 |
* |
signpost ded |
16:36 |
mangol |
exactly :D :D |
16:37 |
mangol |
ded man's switch to auto-broadcast that |
16:38 |
signpost |
idea above is by no means complete, but wanted to prompt others to think about p2p filesharing pest-tronically. |
16:39 |
signpost |
one will want to think about how search works atop this also. |
16:40 |
PeterL |
mangol, could you expand how CTCP is different from normal pest operation, or how signpost's thing is differnt from DCC? |
16:40 |
mangol |
signpost: oh yeah. you have good ideas |
16:41 |
signpost |
just thinking from first principles outward from asciilifeform's pest |
16:41 |
mangol |
PeterL: in IRC, CTCP is a PRIVMSG/NOTICE where the first and last bytes are 0x01 (IIRC). that's a hack because IRC doesn't have native CTCP and CTCPREPLY messages |
16:41 |
mangol |
pest is new, so ideally could avoid using such a hack |
16:42 |
PeterL |
so a sort of hack to implement the message types that pest has? |
16:43 |
* |
mangol would like to have a "drip" protocol where you subscribe to peers in your WoT, and they propagate interesting content to you |
16:43 |
mangol |
content would drip through the network, so nobody knows who originated the content |
16:43 |
mangol |
drip as in coffee or something. need the feed, etc. |
16:44 |
signpost |
possibly can implement that without a new message type, just designate a particular netchain the juicy gossip thread |
16:45 |
mangol |
basically you'd think "this guy always comes across interesting stuff" and add his key to your drip wot. then all his stuff, and his friends' stuff, would come to you |
16:45 |
* |
signpost imagines he will have a netchain which broadcasts his new blog posts to those that care, etc |
16:45 |
signpost |
yeah, definitely implementable with existing concepts |
16:45 |
mangol |
yeah, could be doable as a simple extension of pest |
16:46 |
signpost |
not even, netchain's there as 3.2.3.1 in the spek |
16:46 |
mangol |
if you wanna hear someone's pest messages, you probably wanna hear about their links too |
16:46 |
signpost |
http://pestnet.io/whitepaper.html#3231-netchain-broadcast-messages |
16:46 |
PeterL |
or have a pest network where anybody posts the hash of interesting stuff, then people can grab it using signpost's thing? (does it need a name yet?) |
16:48 |
mangol |
seems like pestnet.io's TLS cert needs tweaking btw |
16:48 |
mangol |
the web server's, that is |
16:48 |
mangol |
oh, it has a localhost cert, heh |
16:49 |
signpost |
this'd be mega-handy for retrieving someone's new vpatches. |
16:49 |
signpost |
pentacle might like those put in an inbox for review and inclusion in your local patches/seals dirs |
16:50 |
signpost |
mangol: your browser probably insisted on hitting that port, rather than the server redirecting |
16:50 |
PeterL |
mangol: have you gotten v running yet? |
16:50 |
mangol |
signpost: entirely possible |
16:50 |
mangol |
PeterL: nope, i have yet to read the V tutorial and study the reference impl |
16:51 |
PeterL |
let us know if you have any questions |
16:51 |
mangol |
great! |
16:51 |
mangol |
greta! |
16:51 |
mangol |
heh |
16:52 |
PeterL |
it is possible to, for example, get blatta running without a v (you just have to apply all the patches manually), but v makes it easier |
16:55 |
mangol |
does V store a signed tree of commits? |
16:57 |
PeterL |
not sure I understand the question, but isn't that what vpatches and seals are (maybe trying to mix two different lingos here)? |
16:59 |
signpost |
mangol: https://archive.ph/pRfAz |
16:59 |
mangol |
https://djrankings.org/DJ-BEN_VULPES << this is what is found when trying to find the V tutorial linked from loper's sidebar |
17:00 |
signpost |
lol |
17:00 |
signpost |
not the same guy |
17:00 |
mangol |
looking for the V-jay, not the D-jay |
17:01 |
mangol |
glorious visual programming future getting closer by the day |
17:01 |
signpost |
one man's endless quest for the vjay. |
17:01 |
mangol |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VJing |
17:01 |
signpost |
was making a vagina joke over here. |
17:02 |
mangol |
oh lol |
17:02 |
signpost |
v centers on the principle that patches are to be first read, later used to modify source code. |
17:03 |
signpost |
a vpatch contains a keccak hash of each source file antecedent, and out of this forms a tree. |
17:03 |
mangol |
also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijay_(given_name) |
17:03 |
mangol |
Vijay (Devanagari विजय; Urdu وجے) is a Hindu male given name meaning 'victory'. |
17:05 |
signpost |
patches are signed, and signatures are trusted based upon your local trusted keys. |
17:06 |
signpost |
ben's post will go into more detail |
17:16 |
billymg |
hiya mangol, been enjoying reading your discussions with the others here |
17:16 |
billymg |
i maintain the pestnet.io site, afaict it shouldn't be redirecting you to https |
17:17 |
signpost |
looks like maybe your webserver has a default config for TLS |
17:17 |
signpost |
browsers are often redirecting to that these days if they find it available. |
17:17 |
signpost |
(doesn't matter, just explaining what's likely happening) |
17:17 |
billymg |
signpost: ah, hrm. ok i'll look into that |
| |
~ 38 minutes ~ |
17:56 |
mangol |
billymg: thanks, appreciate it! |
17:57 |
mangol |
great bunch of people. welcome relief from the naive leftism and lack of vision in most programming communities |
18:03 |
mangol |
what's the deal with The Most Serene Republic, did mp really believe he'd stand a chance of founding a cryptostate? i wasn't around at the time |
18:08 |
PeterL |
The Most Serene Republic of Bitcoin, which can be viewed as the de jure state occupied by anybody using bitcoin, or more specifically the people in the specific community (vestiges of which are still represented here) |
18:10 |
mangol |
mainly people around #bitcoin-assets and #trilema AFAICT? |
18:10 |
PeterL |
you will probably get a different definition from any of the participating people, perhaps asciilifeform or signpost would be more authoratative than I |
18:11 |
PeterL |
but yes, pretty much it is a way to refer to the people who were in #bitcoin-assets -> #trilema -> #asciilifeform |
18:12 |
mangol |
was the idea to start by usin bitcoin as money, and eventually (god willing) progress to other things like contracts, legislation, etc.? |
18:13 |
mangol |
and V is part of the same mentality |
18:14 |
PeterL |
I suppose v is a natural result of the mentality |
18:15 |
PeterL |
the idea was to build a cummunity of thinking people with technology designed to support useful interactions (I might be oversimplifying everything here) |
18:16 |
PeterL |
have you come across the idea of "proceeding from causes ratther than to purposes"? |
18:17 |
mangol |
not sure. is that the same as bottom-up design, or something fancier? |
18:17 |
mangol |
i.e. start from first principles and see where you end up |
18:17 |
PeterL |
http://trilema.com/2015/causes-and-purposes/ << this post I think explains it |
18:23 |
PeterL |
^ sorry, this article |
18:25 |
PeterL |
(at one point mp made a stink about calling things on blogs "articles" instead of "posts") |
18:26 |
PeterL |
http://peterl.xyz/2019/11/post-vs-article/ |
18:26 |
signpost |
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2015-05-05#1121599 |
18:26 |
dulapbot |
(trilema) 2015-05-05 mircea_popescu: im not making a different country. i'm making THESE countries. let the reds make "their own country", on fucking mars preferably. |
18:33 |
signpost |
mangol: http://deedbot.org/deed-382703-1.txt << see also |
| |
↖ |
18:35 |
mangol |
both sides are wrong. clearly the correct term is "poast" |
| |
↖ |
18:36 |
signpost |
I didn't write the latter item, but signed. |
18:37 |
signpost |
hard to summarize the era, except that proceeded from ^ first principles. |
18:38 |
signpost |
unfortunately ended with mp succumbing to drink, whoring, ocean. |
18:40 |
signpost |
everything else in bitcoin runs at 100x the classical rate of history, so why not cults too. |
18:44 |
mangol |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086679 << was this declaration written in earnest? |
18:44 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 14:32:25 signpost: mangol: http://deedbot.org/deed-382703-1.txt << see also |
18:45 |
signpost |
earnest is what signing means. |
18:45 |
verisimilitude |
I don't use the word ``blog''; my Gopher hole and website have articles or writings, not posts. |
18:45 |
signpost |
signed and dated via deedbot, i.e. hashed and hash farted to the bitcoin blockchain |
18:46 |
* |
signpost still calls himself ideologically republican. |
| |
↖ |
18:46 |
mangol |
"we are absolved from all allegiance to any entity", etc. when the legacy state jackboots arrive, they might beg to differ |
18:47 |
signpost |
jackboots may arrive for whatever reason they wish, including my political views supposedly protected on a parchment somewhere. |
18:47 |
* |
signpost has no delusions of grandeur on ability to wield his will beyond his own arse. doesn't change what's true. |
18:49 |
mangol |
true things don't rely on signing a document. important people signing documents about what's true is precisely how the derp state corrupts science. |
18:49 |
mangol |
climate consensus, covid consensus, gender consensus, etc. |
18:49 |
signpost |
tmsr for a time was an internally ideologically consistent culture. |
18:50 |
mangol |
an ideologically consistent irc channel |
18:50 |
signpost |
this is the same "practical" dismissal you leveled at coping with modern computing. |
18:50 |
mangol |
sorry for playing devilÃ's advocate.just think it's important to have a reality check now and then |
18:51 |
signpost |
it's a defense mechanism; one wants to believe that there's merit in selecting among doomed alternatives. |
18:51 |
signpost |
I'm satisfied with being doomed. |
18:51 |
signpost |
anything beyond it tastes better. |
18:51 |
signpost |
I will not defeat global communism. it will rot and fall inward. it doesn't need help. |
18:53 |
mangol |
i don't want to stop anyone from living according to their preferences; just trying to help maintain self-awareness |
18:53 |
signpost |
tmsr deaded quite a while ago at this point. |
18:54 |
mangol |
unless i'm reading it wrong somehow, that declaration seems self-unaware to the point that it might harm the signatories |
18:54 |
signpost |
you'll find pages of critique of the era from myself and others in logs. |
18:54 |
PeterL |
can it be said to be dead while we yet live? |
| |
↖ |
18:55 |
signpost |
mangol: when the russian empire expands to reabsorb finland, will you be glad you behaved according to finland's local religion? |
18:56 |
mangol |
lol |
18:57 |
mangol |
i guess my thinking then would be more along the lines of how to avoid trouble |
18:58 |
signpost |
being worried about particular thinking, or words on a screen, seems strange if freedom of speech is protected. |
18:59 |
signpost |
the bible commands me to kill to punish certain acts. if I'm a christian, the fact that I don't choose to kill to avoid trouble doesn't change that it's true that god commands it. |
18:59 |
* |
signpost understands the practicality of e.g. paying his taxes, w/e |
18:59 |
signpost |
this doesn't make taxation just, or calling it slavery dangerous. |
18:59 |
signpost |
the thug will oppress you arbitrarily; don't let him live in your mind also. |
19:00 |
mangol |
the point i was trying to make is that an irc channel having a declaration of sovereignty sounds like something a teenage libertarian with more IQ than sense might do |
19:00 |
* |
signpost ftr loves the dirt on which he lives. the state is not the place. |
19:00 |
signpost |
it's a lazy dismissal, that. |
19:00 |
mangol |
in the real world, no state will ask for your opinion on anything like this. finland and russia will never ask my opinion on anything (they might pretend to, via elections) |
19:01 |
signpost |
that they don't doesn't change what's so. |
19:01 |
signpost |
it just means a bayonet is up your ass, and I won't fault you for what it makes you say. |
19:02 |
signpost |
I could counter with a lazy dismissal that a man of a certain age always justifies integration of his oppression to ease the discomfort. |
19:03 |
mangol |
my mind isn't very successfully oppressed. my body is. |
19:03 |
PeterL |
mangol: it is/was more than just an IRC channel, the IRC channel was just one way that participants could communicate |
19:03 |
signpost |
PeterL: eh I don't know. I called it larping myself, and still consider it so. |
19:04 |
mangol |
the number (and social status, in a very conventional sense) of participants is what really counts, not the communication channels |
19:04 |
signpost |
*but* this does not make the communist state just, that there's nothing left but larping on IRC about republicanism. |
19:04 |
signpost |
it was also practically a fanboy cult of personality around mp. |
19:05 |
mangol |
no normal person thinks communism (or anything approximating it) is just |
19:06 |
signpost |
anyway, tmsr was a failed social experiment. |
19:06 |
mangol |
people suck up to the state because it oppresses their bodies if they won't. not because it oppresses their minds (though this certainly helps) |
19:06 |
mangol |
take away prison, police, military. within a year nobody will obey squat |
19:06 |
signpost |
glorious leader enjoyed the thing as a kind of porn. network lacked sufficient profit centers and outreach to grow. |
19:06 |
signpost |
many other problems. |
19:06 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: imho never got past point of posturing, or to the point of experiment |
19:07 |
signpost |
sure, wherever one wants to put it on the continuum, so long as it's "not much" |
19:07 |
PeterL |
would you say Pest is a product of TMSR, or a product of the new era since TMSR died? |
19:08 |
asciilifeform |
PeterL: can't speak for other folx, but asciilifeform started on the concept before showing up to #t in '14 |
19:08 |
asciilifeform |
for that matter, thimbronion wrote most of the prototype w/out even seeing asciilifeform's spec |
19:09 |
asciilifeform |
good % of the mechanism is 'obvious' once you realize the need for it |
19:11 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086708 << worked for poland, eh. 'Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła, Kiedy my żyjemy...'(tm)(r)(c) |
19:11 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 14:53:33 PeterL: can it be said to be dead while we yet live? |
19:11 |
signpost |
republic's a manner of interacting with other men. |
19:12 |
signpost |
iirc discussed in logs that "there's only ever one, in the limit" |
19:21 |
* |
signpost pretty satisfied that anarchists declaring that the state must be abolished are welcome at every captive-opposition demonstration, but the declaration still has crimethought bite. |
19:25 |
signpost |
all this aside, and granting that tmsr was mostly words on a screen, it remains an open and urgent problem how to maintain the capability of assembling and thinking publicly. |
19:26 |
* |
signpost believes that the solution to that problem will necessarily be republican, which means distributed and gradual hierarchy, inequality, public defense of reason via argument, all these. |
19:27 |
asciilifeform |
signpost et al: worth noting precisely with what teeth that bite. 'bitcoin exists', pgp exists, and even warez still exists, reich has not been mega-successful in preventing free exchange of bits, or forcing people to sign strings they dun wanna sign. why, remains somewhat of mystery, but imho not unconnected w/ fact that reich functionaries hold btc and don't care to see it devalued |
| |
↖ |
19:28 |
asciilifeform |
( e.g. asciilifeform at one pt predicted that 'anyone caught using bitcoin will end in auschwitz' but this dun seem particularly close to happening ) |
19:28 |
signpost |
asciilifeform: yep, notably a former KGB gent now sits in a tsar's chair. not saying it will go well, but ideology is mutable before will to power. |
19:29 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: eh asciilifeform was born in the reign of andropov, who in fact went from kgb chair to throne. so current one is 2nd |
19:29 |
signpost |
would be far better for bitcoin to repair the empire than destroy it, not that it's likely. |
19:30 |
signpost |
yeah not calling it rare, calling it exactly how goes. |
19:30 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: point is that there's a hole in traditional reign of the empire -- control over movement of money -- large enough to drive a tanker through. atm not much in the way of tanker tho |
19:30 |
signpost |
power will seek the most valuable thing, and be shaped by the necessities of obtaining it |
19:30 |
asciilifeform |
what people appear to lack is the 'why', rather than the 'with what' |
19:31 |
asciilifeform |
it's rather as if someone had devised a means of baking nuke w/ kitchen supplies, and then turned out that nobody can be arsed |
19:31 |
signpost |
suicidality is near-ubiquitous, just most aren't capable of consummating. |
19:32 |
* |
signpost has interest in distributed tech to walk and order the graph of meat puppets. |
19:32 |
asciilifeform |
from asciilifeform's pov, the 'meat' of 'tmsr' was the notion of getting the original internet back. |
19:33 |
signpost |
yes, original in the sense that it was a selection of thinking men, pre-september |
19:33 |
asciilifeform |
that one. |
19:33 |
signpost |
implicit wot |
19:33 |
asciilifeform |
concurrently, to get the original computer back, with it |
19:36 |
signpost |
the only cultural problem is how to assemble the effective and sane. |
| |
~ 20 minutes ~ |
19:57 |
signpost |
ah, apparently finland has a "don't offend the muslims" law, like much of conquered yurp. |
19:57 |
signpost |
mangol: sfyl, texas still has members of congress which (for entirely performative reasons) threaten to secede. |
19:58 |
* |
signpost not positioning mangol to defend this ideology, of course. |
20:06 |
verisimilitude |
There's still value in the opposite mode, anonymous forums. |
20:07 |
verisimilitude |
When the goal be to create something, and it doesn't take years with heavy communication, it can produce good things. |
20:08 |
PeterL |
anonnymous forums like reddit? |
20:08 |
verisimilitude |
No, I mean like an image board. |
20:08 |
verisimilitude |
Reddit is pseudonymous. |
20:09 |
PeterL |
how is there a difference? |
20:09 |
verisimilitude |
The 4chan is the most well-known example, although most boards there are garbage; the obscure boards still have some value, however. |
20:09 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: show 1 of these 'good things' ? |
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20:09 |
asciilifeform |
afaik nuffin but the most abject garbage ever emerged from these |
20:10 |
verisimilitude |
See, I would, but it would reveal my cult affiliation, and so I'd rather not. |
20:10 |
asciilifeform |
lolk |
20:10 |
signpost |
pfffft |
20:10 |
signpost |
holy shit, verisimilitude is Q |
20:11 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: lol, the folx w/ 'martians will land and reinstate trump' ? |
20:11 |
PeterL |
and why don't you want your cult affiliation associated with you here? |
20:12 |
verisimilitude |
I have different identities for different places. |
20:12 |
verisimilitude |
This is my primary, but not only, sobriquet. |
20:13 |
signpost |
asciilifeform: sekret pact with putin to defeat the globalists too! |
20:15 |
asciilifeform |
aaaha, and capture clitler et al and hang on pedo island. in 2021. |
20:15 |
asciilifeform |
iirc was promised. |
20:16 |
signpost |
peasant religion, also an eternal form |
20:16 |
signpost |
only one |
20:17 |
asciilifeform |
controlled marionette 'religion' (reminiscent of ye olde 'uniate church' in east europe, where retained orthodox rites but controlled from rome) |
20:24 |
signpost |
verisimilitude: I can see value in an anonymous hopper for e.g. leaks |
20:25 |
signpost |
nothing wrong with having private relationships either. |
20:25 |
* |
asciilifeform remains unconvinced that 'anon leaks' do anyffin worth mentioning |
20:25 |
signpost |
only society cannot be built upon these and remain open. |
20:25 |
asciilifeform |
esp. when they aint of a usable launch code |
20:25 |
signpost |
not something I feel strongly about |
20:25 |
asciilifeform |
e.g. |
20:25 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-08 16:13:39 signpost: is pretty amused that the docs that leaked out of DARPA confirmed that the covid virus was an experimental vaccination platform for bats, and discussion of this disappeared just as quickly. |
20:26 |
signpost |
yep, fart in the wind, that. |
20:26 |
asciilifeform |
not to mention, reich puts considerable effort into fabricating hangouts |
20:26 |
signpost |
"hunter biden laptop!1!!" also |
20:26 |
asciilifeform |
e.g. |
20:29 |
signpost |
not saying verisimilitude likes shitting-dick-nipples hentai, but I wouldn't judge! |
20:29 |
signpost |
bring your kinks out into the light and be free |
20:29 |
asciilifeform |
observe that not 1 reich crypto key of any consequence (e.g. intel's magick packet) has publicly leaked to date. |
20:30 |
signpost |
maybe hunger loosens things up, but 100% hypothetical, and not top priority. |
20:30 |
signpost |
plenty of infrastructure for the honest to build. |
20:31 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: point being that all 'mega-leaks' to date are entirely consistent w/ 'hangout' pov |
20:31 |
verisimilitude |
Not everything of worth is about this, asciilifeform. |
20:32 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: said somewhere that was ? |
20:32 |
signpost |
granted. covid thing, for example, says to a certain demo that "patriots in the military are fighting the good fight" |
20:32 |
asciilifeform |
gotta point out ftr, tho, that 100% of 'anon leaks' to date were unactionable horseshit |
20:33 |
verisimilitude |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086777 Sometimes the good thing can just be someone sharing something inconsequential he made. |
20:33 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 16:09:01 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: show 1 of these 'good things' ? |
20:33 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: nobody's begrudging you yer lolcats |
20:35 |
verisimilitude |
I'm not the one with a meme cat on his website. |
20:35 |
verisimilitude |
It's a cool meme cat, but a meme cat all the same. |
20:35 |
signpost |
hueee |
20:35 |
asciilifeform |
verisimilitude: it's 1 of the moar famous memecats at that |
20:37 |
* |
asciilifeform at one pt read (ru) anonpits, quit 'cold turkey' & never looked back |
20:38 |
signpost |
vzhuk! << does this approximate the magic word's pronunciation? |
20:40 |
asciilifeform |
vzhooh |
20:41 |
PeterL |
sort of like swoosh? |
20:41 |
asciilifeform |
aha |
20:41 |
* |
signpost had been meaning to ask |
20:41 |
mangol |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086749 << there's a depressing explanation for the lax attitude toward crypto (both money & messaging): powerful people who could use those things to topple the system benefit more from the current system |
20:41 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 15:26:22 asciilifeform: signpost et al: worth noting precisely with what teeth that bite. 'bitcoin exists', pgp exists, and even warez still exists, reich has not been mega-successful in preventing free exchange of bits, or forcing people to sign strings they dun wanna sign. why, remains somewhat of mystery, but imho not unconnected w/ fact that reich functionaries hold btc and don't care to see it devalued |
20:41 |
mangol |
iirc last year at least a couple of prominent people were whacked |
20:43 |
asciilifeform |
mangol: the moar interesting aspect is that folx who nominally oppose reich regularly fall for its various honeypots |
20:43 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-11-14 13:55:28 asciilifeform: btw recall the pompous 'busts' of derps who baked 'eevil seekrit turdroid pnojes for mafia' ? |
20:44 |
asciilifeform |
which btw includes any and all 'bitcoin exchanges' |
20:44 |
asciilifeform |
likewise, the 'prominent people' are 'prominent' strictly in that reich-controlled publications decree them 'prominent' |
20:45 |
mangol |
that's the ideal outcome, isn't it? trap the self-styled rebels in state-backed controlled opposition |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
worx great historically |
20:45 |
asciilifeform |
'upload yer privkey to keybase today!' etc |
20:46 |
mangol |
just like wage slavery is state-sanctioned self-actualization, without posing the danger (to the state) of self-actualization with perspective |
20:47 |
mangol |
the best traps are always the ones that give people an illusion of agency without actual agency |
20:47 |
mangol |
since people are different, gotta have a variety of traps with different aesthetics |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
mangol: imho the interesting thing is precisely how tediously similar to 1 another are the traps |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
all the variations on the theme of 'let this here Very Trusted 3rd party have yer privkeys' for instance |
20:48 |
asciilifeform |
usually in conjunction with 'run this Very Secure cryptoturd on mswin' |
20:49 |
signpost |
the slot's already there to receive command. |
20:49 |
asciilifeform |
covers just about all of'em |
20:50 |
asciilifeform |
see also thrd. |
20:50 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-06-24 12:55:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-24#1015278 << the key to this 'roman a clef' is quite simple. in usg there are two subgroups -- one is privy to the '90s change of strategy where 'instead of trying to ban pgp / 'make water not wet' -- we'll encourage proliferation of faux crypto and honeypot 'services' ' ; the other, not privy. the latter continue the clinton-era bloviations a la 'clipp |
20:50 |
signpost |
the state's not protecting itself from thinking men. they're usually self-interested. |
20:50 |
signpost |
it's making sure joe stacks crash their plane into the IRS office when it's mostly empty. |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
signpost: for the most part, the 'stacks' begin & end with 'hatespeech' on arsebook and duly picked up |
20:51 |
asciilifeform |
as is the intent of the herders |
20:51 |
* |
signpost doesn't begrudge herding these in the slightest. |
20:52 |
mangol |
when said 'stacks' don't work for the same org as the people picking them up to begin with |
20:52 |
* |
signpost emits a parser error |
20:52 |
asciilifeform |
mangol: recent lulz illustrative |
20:52 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-01-25 19:33:42 asciilifeform: is funny, how erry time they need to agitate for yr+, bus in over9000 morons of both hat colours into some shithole, and spend 1e8$ on provocateurs, to get 1-2 corpses |
20:52 |
signpost |
mangol: joe stack died, so I doubt he worked for usg in that regard. |
20:53 |
signpost |
but yeah, many are provocateurs, as in jan 6 |
20:53 |
asciilifeform |
( see also e.g. ) |
20:53 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-09-22 13:16:22 asciilifeform: was domestic application of 'controlled chaos' lizard doctrine that worked a++ in afganistan, syria, etc. -- 'obsolete' young men, 'nothing to do', join mujahedeen/isis/$usg-muppet-org-of-the-day, put on shaheed belt, explode where instructed to by handler-provocateur. |
20:53 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-07-02 19:59:08 asciilifeform: shinohai: the morons' attempts at 'crypto' imho are quite reminiscent at '90s arab attempts to bake nuke (where they'd sell one another, and buy from usg provocateurs, 'mysterious artifacts' with cyrillic labels, + alchemical formulae to go with'em ) |
20:53 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-02-02 21:02:07 asciilifeform: still waiting for 'uprising' that isn't run by the usual mix of provocateurs and semiliterate roomtemp-iq waco fodders |
21:03 |
mangol |
indeed, the lack of high-ranking defectors (e.g. military) is a bit puzzling given that the estabilshment is growing more incompetent by the week |
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21:03 |
signpost |
into what, is the problem. |
21:04 |
PeterL |
you expect them to jump from one failing state into another? |
21:04 |
signpost |
the US military will exist long after a hypothetical fall of the USG. |
21:04 |
mangol |
in some places they'd have a lot of support from the masses too, the memetic groundwork has been laid. asciilifeform, there's your 4 chan use case |
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21:06 |
signpost |
can start going by A, take pictures on a white steed with US flag in hand. |
21:07 |
crtdaydreams |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086680 << you're not a ``fediverse'' user ...are you? |
21:07 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 14:34:41 mangol: both sides are wrong. clearly the correct term is "poast" |
21:07 |
* |
signpost would rather infect .mil with the subversive idea of a free republic, have them question why the tooling from such beats the shit out of their plasticware. |
21:08 |
signpost |
crtdaydreams: poast is a pretty bog standard IRC corruption of spelling. |
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21:08 |
crtdaydreams |
signpost: herm. new to me, only place I've heard it used is the standard for pleroma instances. |
21:08 |
crtdaydreams |
or was it mastodon? |
21:08 |
crtdaydreams |
eh. anyways. |
21:09 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086863 << familiar w/ the term 'sausage emigre' ? atm there aint a place 'with better sausage', and ergo 'nowhere to defect to' |
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21:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 17:02:26 mangol: indeed, the lack of high-ranking defectors (e.g. military) is a bit puzzling given that the estabilshment is growing more incompetent by the week |
21:10 |
crtdaydreams |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086524 << --==[ data hoarder lyf 8 point oh ]==-- |
21:10 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 09:51:16 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086523 << if the internet splinters, it'll be even harder than now to find information, and esoteric info hardest of all |
21:10 |
signpost |
less spam crtdaydreams |
21:10 |
asciilifeform |
^ |
21:10 |
* |
crtdaydreams did not mean to spam :( |
21:11 |
* |
crtdaydreams will not do it again |
21:14 |
asciilifeform |
re defectors, see also e.g. |
21:14 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2020-06-07 14:25:20 asciilifeform: ru storyteller v. pelevin had a scene where 'we had sovok, but to ours, people could bring bootleg jeans and music. and it was even possible to get out. now you have one in usa, but there is important difference : no one will bring bootleg jeans to it, and no one will get out, because it hasn't got an outside' |
21:15 |
* |
signpost bbl |
21:18 |
mangol |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086876 << i wouldn't expect them to defect to another country, but to try and reinstate a non-terminal gov't in their current one. not all high-ranking people have a volcano lair to fly to |
21:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 17:08:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086863 << familiar w/ the term 'sausage emigre' ? atm there aint a place 'with better sausage', and ergo 'nowhere to defect to' |
21:18 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086867 << 'support from mass' does precisely 0. even if you could get it, which you can't, cuz, see above, 'sausage'-seeking amoebas following the gradient. |
21:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 17:04:03 mangol: in some places they'd have a lot of support from the masses too, the memetic groundwork has been laid. asciilifeform, there's your 4 chan use case |
21:18 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2021-11-08 17:58:54 asciilifeform: imho there is no actual advantage to deliberately taking the position of amoeba, living 'on birds' rights' among people; only illusory 'advantages'. but it is not simple to convince noobs of this, typically they gotta see (or not) for themselves. |
21:21 |
asciilifeform |
mangol: the current government serves the rulers just fine |
21:21 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-14 14:13:44 asciilifeform: from the pov of the perps -- for whom 'function' is 'keep the yachts afloat' -- never been healthier |
21:21 |
* |
asciilifeform must bbl |
21:28 |
crtdaydreams |
re DHT/PEST: perhapse we could utilize some form of bittorrent while wrapping i.e. a tracker in pest? |
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21:29 |
crtdaydreams |
I don't see the necessity to obfuscate torrent traffic with flood-network |
21:30 |
crtdaydreams |
If you are running perse; radio, you're going to want ~all~ the bandwith you can get. |
21:33 |
crtdaydreams |
I suggest using at tracker over pest because you could design a tracker that certain files are available only to a selected participant on pest; i.e. the one with the PK to decrypt. |
21:33 |
mats |
asciilifeform: some of those drops have discernible impacts, like the various icij leaks |
21:34 |
crtdaydreams |
Pub vs Priv DHT availability. |
21:35 |
mats |
revenue authorities have targeted relevant nationals for enforcement action, and presumably was also used to target ru oligarchs in recent weeks |
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21:35 |
mats |
nsa appears to like fronting their leaks under the anon banner |
| |
~ 33 minutes ~ |
22:08 |
asciilifeform |
mats: these are precisely the reich hangouts asciilifeform was referring to |
22:09 |
asciilifeform |
they aint leaks in the 'grassroots' sense normally propagandized |
22:09 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086895 << have you considered actually reading the spec ?? |
22:09 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 17:27:27 crtdaydreams: re DHT/PEST: perhapse we could utilize some form of bittorrent while wrapping i.e. a tracker in pest? |
22:10 |
asciilifeform |
for fucks sake |
22:23 |
asciilifeform |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086901 << the ru oligarchs fwiw were creatures of the reich, whose purpose was to steal & exfiltrate as much as possible of what 80yrs of collective orcish sweat had built. and nao that the brakes were hit on this exfiltration, naturally, 'pig aint gonna get any fatter, time for the knife' |
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22:23 |
dulapbot |
Logged on 2022-03-21 17:34:22 mats: revenue authorities have targeted relevant nationals for enforcement action, and presumably was also used to target ru oligarchs in recent weeks |
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~ 27 minutes ~ |
22:51 |
mats |
there’s fed defectors |
22:52 |
mats |
like that idiot who carefully drafted covid disinfo without letterhead, filled with redactions, spelling errors, posted here |
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22:53 |
mats |
and the active duty dummies who showed up for jan6 |
22:55 |
mats |
well, one ad and four army reserve/ng, ad guy caught a charge |
23:02 |
signpost |
!!gettrust crtdaydreams |
23:02 |
deedbot |
L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections. |
23:02 |
signpost |
time to stop trying to satisfy your urges by making noise, and read *deeply* the pest spec, all of loper-os, and come back with questions or not at all. |
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23:03 |
signpost |
*questions*, not proposals for the one-weird-trick-they-don't-want-you-to-know re: p2p |