Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2022-03-21 | 2022-03-23 →
01:11 signpost !e view-height
01:11 trbexplorer block_height: 728436
01:11 trbexplorer mins_since_last_block: 8
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
02:12 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086911 << esp. lulzy when reich packages coupla actual facts in 'cheap disinfo with broken letterhead' etc.
02:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 18:51:48 mats: like that idiot who carefully drafted covid disinfo without letterhead, filled with redactions, spelling errors, posted here
02:12 asciilifeform y'know, just in case the actual doc were somehow to leak.
~ 15 minutes ~
02:28 mats dunno, that smelled like an out and out classic project veritas job by a uniform careful enough to not commit an actual crime
02:29 mats https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/odd-lots/id1056200096?i=1000554695216
02:37 mats http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=e2Oa transcript here
02:47 signpost "Mark, I know you are literally the world's leading expert on this concept of veil piercing in the sovereign debt context. Can creditors -- even at a low probability estimation -- go after any of the oligarch assets?" << these people really want total war, eh?
02:48 signpost $150 bil in foreign debt, what a dream.
02:49 mats https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/22/countries-may-want-to-diversify-away-from-the-us-dollar-think-tank.html
02:50 signpost "And if there are sanctions, we're gonna pay in rubles. As Mark articulated it to me a couple of days ago, it's as if the investors are giving Putin insurance for doing bad stuff." << fascinating, seems well played on his part.
02:55 mats its hard to say who will hurt more, the west or ru, after it all, but the chinese will surely benefit
02:56 signpost well played from a bad position. definitely cn wins.
02:57 mats the americans demonstrated a rare and incredible capacity for multilateral diplomacy not seen in decades, and also threatened the future of dollar dominance, to stick it to the jr partner in the cn-ru alliance
02:58 mats there was a time when the americans swallowed their polemic about democracy and worked with mao to push back the soviets, and couldn't fucking figure out how to switch sides this go around
02:59 mats would not have bought biden as an accelerationist 3 months ago, but here we are
02:59 signpost at current levels of corruption not surprised the thing only works in reverse.
03:01 mats ru is ~11% of the planet's land mass, and their combined land and surface area of water is almost as much as the next two countries (ca and cn, or ca and usa) combined, they are relatively self sufficient as far as energy and food goes, they can endure a lot of pain being short of western goods and services in the ~decade long transition it'll take to send their commodities to the east
03:01 mats and it may never be as good in ru as it was six months ago
03:02 mats what a colossal waste of resources
03:02 mats the supply chain fuckup will be extraordinary
03:02 crtdaydreams Need a clarification on pest spec re: 2.4 AT
03:03 crtdaydreams If someone currently peered sends a message from a new IP not currently registered in AT, will the AT update or will the message be discarded as martian before it can be processed?
03:03 signpost mats: I have zero notion of the pain tolerance of the russian population; too bad phf isn't around to say.
03:04 signpost *current pain tolerance, certainly past pain tolerance is legendary
03:06 crtdaydreams I ask because 2.4s current wording is explicitly that IPs do not update even if the key is peered. Wherin the AT command issued in 2.5.2 explicity states it will be updated.
03:15 signpost crtdaydreams: where are you reading the spec? this says "AT is used exclusively for determining where to send outgoing packets" and "automatically updated"
03:18 crtdaydreams billymg's prettyprinted ver. mebbe I misread
03:19 crtdaydreams no. I misunderstood.
~ 20 minutes ~
03:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086933 << diplomacy is sumthing that happens b/w actual sovereign countries. reich issuing marching orders to its satrapies aint it
03:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 22:57:15 mats: the americans demonstrated a rare and incredible capacity for multilateral diplomacy not seen in decades, and also threatened the future of dollar dominance, to stick it to the jr partner in the cn-ru alliance
03:41 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086937 << the terrifying!11 pain of being deprived of the ipnoje! and mcshitburgers..
03:41 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 23:00:19 mats: ru is ~11% of the planet's land mass, and their combined land and surface area of water is almost as much as the next two countries (ca and cn, or ca and usa) combined, they are relatively self sufficient as far as energy and food goes, they can endure a lot of pain being short of western goods and services in the ~decade long transition it'll take to send their commodities to the east
03:43 asciilifeform meanwhile tw has 4-6mo to discover how to fab ic w/out rare earths from ru, usa -- how to fission dirt instead of refuned u from ru, etc
03:43 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: pest: Any particular reason __why__ the black packet sig is is verified in __random__ order?
03:44 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: familiar with notion of side channel info leakage?
03:44 crtdaydreams No, will google. Thanks
03:45 asciilifeform enemy has no biz learning how many peers you have, or which peer a packet verified as having been issued by, by timing packets in flight (enemy can be assumed to possess all transmitted packets and accurate timing for same)
03:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086946 << indeed says right there.
03:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 23:15:12 signpost: crtdaydreams: where are you reading the spec? this says "AT is used exclusively for determining where to send outgoing packets" and "automatically updated"
03:46 asciilifeform in all versions of the spec.
03:46 asciilifeform incl. the current draft.
03:46 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: ^^^ misunderstood, wording was a bit funny when I went over it the first time
03:46 asciilifeform aite
03:47 crtdaydreams Side channel leak mitigation nao makes sense.
03:48 * crtdaydreams wonders at what other mitigations glossed over or couldn't know exist
03:51 * asciilifeform will bbl
~ 24 minutes ~
04:16 crtdaydreams !seen punkman
04:16 scoopbot crtdaydreams: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, update
04:16 crtdaydreams er
04:16 crtdaydreams !!seen punkman
04:16 deedbot 2022/01/27 14:39:41 <punkman> I mean "bug"
04:16 verisimilitude I recall in what seemed to be a Russian documentary: ``Asides from drinking, there's absolutely nothing to do here.''
04:17 verisimilitude Wouldn't it be fair to assume part of the sanctions is to remove what makes life more bearable for many people, such as video games, and expect it to cause unrest?
04:18 verisimilitude There's been a photograph circulating of a fat man who handcuffed himself to a closing McDonald's restaurant.
~ 24 minutes ~
04:42 mats related https://theconversation.com/russias-energy-clout-doesnt-just-come-from-oil-and-gas-its-also-a-key-nuclear-supplier-179444
~ 30 minutes ~
05:13 signpost I wouldn't normally link twitter, but apparently this is what our government uses to communicate.
05:13 signpost https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1506001259907665936 << in our great wisdom.
05:16 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086872 << https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/poast
05:16 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 17:07:18 signpost: crtdaydreams: poast is a pretty bog standard IRC corruption of spelling.
05:16 mangol "Noun poast (plural poasts) Obsolete form of post."
05:17 signpost huh, there you go.
05:20 mangol cannot source that anywhere apart from wiktionary :-//
05:21 mangol potential prank
05:22 signpost go back far enough and english spelling gets pretty loose, in either case
05:22 mangol re: post vs article, another suggestion "farticle"?
05:23 mangol and a section of one is a particle
05:24 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-10-24#1558618 << the hallowed logs have foreseen.
05:24 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-10-24 shinohai: s/article/farticle/
05:25 mangol :D
05:26 mangol press f in the chat
05:26 * signpost gonna go pass out; see ya
05:30 verisimilitude I loathe Wikimedia.
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
06:34 crtdaydreams nearly finished 1984... absolutely horrified
06:34 verisimilitude I read ``Brave New World'', and it wasn't nearly so great as I'd been led to believe.
06:39 crtdaydreams Recently read Dune (Book 1), that was pretty good. If I don't move to more non-fiction I'll try and read the rest.
06:40 crtdaydreams One Day in The Life of Ivan Denisovitch is pretty eye-opening.
06:42 crtdaydreams I have been told to read Animal Farm though, any good?
06:49 verisimilitude I don't know.
~ 4 hours 4 minutes ~
10:54 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086395 << dam, xtremely intresting search term
10:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-20 20:17:56 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-20#1086143 << see: dataflow
10:54 jonsykkel but i vant dataflow chip now
10:54 jonsykkel is there any text on this in adition to stuff in logs? emulators???? maybe have to build
~ 26 minutes ~
11:20 mangol jonsykkel: AFAIK dataflow is approximately the same thing as reactive
11:21 mangol i.e. a program is essentially a dependency graph. tickle one node in the graph, and that causes an update to ripple through everything that depends on it
11:21 mangol IOW a program is a makefile
11:22 mangol COSA is reactive + synchronous
11:22 mangol look into the "well known" synchronous languages from France. Esterel, Lustre, Lucid Synchrone (latest one is functional + synchronous)
11:23 mangol i.e. higher-order synchronous. don't ask me what that means in detail
11:23 mangol the Esterel line of inquiry begat some of the best stuff in CS, AFAICT. quietly, extremely successful and profitable in industry. like the L4 microkernel family.
11:24 mangol SCADE is a GUI on top of Esterel, big success in industry
11:24 mangol functional reactive programming (FRP) is all about dataflow. unclear whether Lucid Synchrone qualifies as FRP or something different
11:25 mangol any spreadsheet is a dataflow program AFAICT
11:31 mangol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Berry <-- seems like he'd belong in any proper CS pantheon
11:31 mangol https://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Gerard.Berry/
11:31 mangol https://www-sop.inria.fr/meije/esterel/esterel-eng.html <-- good set of links to reference material
11:34 mangol https://misc.lassi.io/2022/foundations-of-esterel.pdf <-- must-read paper by Berry. if you only read one paper about this stuff, make it this.
11:35 mangol Alan Kay's idea of OOP (i.e. message passing) is not far off from reactive, and neither are neural networks
11:36 mangol basically programming has two main schools, math-inspired (algorithms and proofs) and biology-inspired (objects and networks)
11:36 mangol the above stuff is the biology-inpired end (criminally neglected in conventional CS curricula)
11:37 mangol the French dudes, being french, when they started studying networks made many theory arcs toward math
11:37 mangol which you can see very clearly if you try to work thru the Lucid Synchrone primer
11:37 mangol and Esterel compiles into a state machine
11:38 mangol SCADE input is a visual equivalent of an esterel program, output is some autogenerated C monstrosity
11:42 jonsykkel right, make -j9000000000001, enjoy keypres---0.000001ns----->pixels on screen
11:42 mangol https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scade+tutorial <-- many videos about SCADE from Ansys, the company that bought the startup that made it
11:43 jonsykkel good list of links, tanks! will get reading after slep
11:44 jonsykkel this is cool stuf
11:46 jonsykkel specialy intresting if theres something in here i can pley around with
~ 15 minutes ~
12:01 mangol happy to help. i should get back to this stuff too!
12:01 mangol start from the Foundations of Estere paper
12:02 mangol sadly, there's not much to (cheaply!) play around with. try to get an evaluation copy of SCADE or LabVIEW somehow?
12:02 mangol or if you're into audio, Max/MSP or PureData
12:06 mangol https://www.ansys.com/products/embedded-software/ansys-scade-suite <-- look at the applications in this brochure and you get an idea of why it isn't cheap
12:06 mangol but there's https://www.ansys.com/en-gb/academic/students/ansys-scade-student !
12:08 mangol re: why these aren't household names, obligatory naggum "is lisp dying?" / neurosurgery poast: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3140985758772364@naggum.no.html
12:09 mangol can't resist one more link... re: microkernels, this blog is the thing to read: https://microkerneldude.org/
~ 16 minutes ~
12:26 jonsykkel cool, ill check out teh paper
12:28 jonsykkel found labview torrent also, will put on my win7 machine dedicated for abuse
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
13:57 asciilifeform mangol: the only dataflow system asciilifeform had used in earnest (not counting hardwarisms in verilog etc) was wolfram's. and was bog-slow, per se, and from what asciilifeform suspects are fundamental impedance mismatches with vonneumannistic irons
13:58 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087016 << had read, tho afaik not mentioned in the log. theoretically nifty
13:58 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 07:34:15 mangol: https://misc.lassi.io/2022/foundations-of-esterel.pdf <-- must-read paper by Berry. if you only read one paper about this stuff, make it this.
14:00 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087001 << some yrs ago asciilifeform set about designing one, then hit the 'no usable fpga' problem
14:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 06:53:32 jonsykkel: but i vant dataflow chip now
~ 23 minutes ~
14:23 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087040 << cool!
14:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 09:57:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087016 << had read, tho afaik not mentioned in the log. theoretically nifty
14:25 mangol if there was more time, i'd explore a GUI programming language based on this synchronous / reactive paradigm
14:26 mangol it's unconscionable that UIs still jam and show the hourglass cursor dozen times a day
14:26 mangol a UI can't be truly comfortable without being based on response time guarantees of some ort
14:26 mangol *sort
14:28 mangol since general-purpose OS is unavoidably based on unknown wait times (the "interactive" paradigm in Berry's paper) the synchronous layer would have to check "mailboxes" where the interactive layer posts updates
14:30 mangol the human body is a good model here. your eyes and ears don't randomly jam and give you an hourglass / wait tone
14:31 mangol yet the circulation systems of the body have somewhat unpredictable pace, and give you notifications
14:31 mangol heart pumps, etc, but it's not that precise
~ 43 minutes ~
15:15 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086926 << https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/6869/text?r=1&s=1
15:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 22:36:59 mats: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=e2Oa transcript here
15:16 * signpost curious how many overt acts of war russia is prepared to tolerate.
~ 40 minutes ~
15:57 asciilifeform signpost: old noose
15:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-07 08:07:50 mats: https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2022/03/02/calling-all-pirates-this-us-lawmaker-wants-you-to-seize-russian-vessels
15:59 asciilifeform signpost: a little obsolete, too, iirc the abramoviches' yachts already confiscated (mostly from repair depots). reich is still free to try its luck with actual ru navy, lol
16:00 * asciilifeform a++ in favour of deoligarchization -- along with good % of ru public apparently
16:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 18:22:34 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086901 << the ru oligarchs fwiw were creatures of the reich, whose purpose was to steal & exfiltrate as much as possible of what 80yrs of collective orcish sweat had built. and nao that the brakes were hit on this exfiltration, naturally, 'pig aint gonna get any fatter, time for the knife'
16:07 asciilifeform signpost: rumour has it that mr.p gave the pigs fair warning, 'take the dough and yachts home, or get fucked'. they chose to get fucked.
16:10 * signpost figures the piggies mostly deserve the slaughter.
16:11 signpost still a notable escalation that US shall be paying mercs/pirates to rob citizens of another great power.
16:11 * signpost doesn't trust usg to use that judiciously.
16:12 asciilifeform aint as if they weren't already stealing anyffin that floats, flies, etc. that dun have w/ what to shoot back
16:12 asciilifeform for 100+y
16:13 asciilifeform ukr gold reserve, allegedly, already flown to reich.
16:14 asciilifeform a la iraq's
16:24 PeterL in this terminology, are oligarchs separate from Putin?
~ 36 minutes ~
17:00 asciilifeform PeterL: there's 2 basic flavours of oligarchs in ru: 1) the comprador elite 2) the elite loyal to the land (i.e. no plans to miami)
17:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-21 18:22:34 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-21#1086901 << the ru oligarchs fwiw were creatures of the reich, whose purpose was to steal & exfiltrate as much as possible of what 80yrs of collective orcish sweat had built. and nao that the brakes were hit on this exfiltration, naturally, 'pig aint gonna get any fatter, time for the knife'
17:01 asciilifeform at this pt moar or less clear to ~erryone that mr.p himself aint a (1)
17:02 asciilifeform reich's bet is that he's surrounded helplessly by (1) and will be poisoned. ~month into the wank, not happened yet afaik
17:10 mats even if he’s killed, it’s not clear how anyone steps back from this
17:10 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087064 << imho rather obv. at this pt that reich doesn't recognize the existence of any powers other than self. the lulz where usg talking head emitted a 'china must obey...' quite illustrative.
17:10 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 12:10:45 signpost: still a notable escalation that US shall be paying mercs/pirates to rob citizens of another great power.
17:11 mats nobody is getting their shit back and unwinding sanctions ranges from difficult to impossible
17:11 asciilifeform mats: indeed, even under yeltsin's 90s 'pleez dun hurt us' muppet regime, sanctions from '70s-'80s stayed in place
17:12 asciilifeform there's no mystery re why.
17:12 dulapbot Logged on 2022-02-28 14:43:20 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: moar interesting is the 'big pic' -- the current war in fact started from 4th crusade, and continues episodically in form of various 'drang nach osten' by impoverished western eureichs, who will not give up dream of 'lebensraum' and delish phree minerals from 'unfairly squatted by orcs' 1/6th of planet3
17:16 asciilifeform and note that no guarantee who will sit on throne if putin poisoned will be similarly moderate (yes). so far very little in the way of countersanctions -- gas still pumped (through ukristan!) to eureich; refined u -- to usa; rockets not yet reinstalled in cuba (why not? high time) ; etc
17:18 asciilifeform for that matter even the 'withdraw from all intellectualproperty(tm) idiocy and open a ministry of warez' thing not afaik actually happened yet
~ 17 minutes ~
17:35 PeterL does Putin have a designated heir apparent?
17:35 asciilifeform not afaik
17:37 mangol that's weird
17:38 asciilifeform imho not so strange; nobody seems to know who is heir of e.g. soros either
17:39 asciilifeform ru at least has a publicly known ruler, unlike reich
17:41 mangol reich has regressed to the point that kamala harris can be vice president; not surprising that they'd mess something up
17:41 mangol though the old guard seems to have sharp people
17:41 asciilifeform mangol: the 'elected' muppets in usa decide nothing
17:42 mangol ofc, but even as a public display it's embarrassing and easily avoided
17:42 mangol and could get out of hand -- start drinking own kool aid
17:43 billymg https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1506087506298621954 << not sure if this is satire or not but appears to be earnest
17:44 asciilifeform billymg: prolly not satire, d00d is former reich ambassador to ru, and currently famous for 'there are no innocent russians' and other lulz
17:44 billymg the replies are lulzy: "great idea!"
17:46 billymg asciilifeform (or anyone): have you tried using this for hooking up postgres to SBCL? https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern
17:46 asciilifeform billymg: asciilifeform has used; worx
17:47 billymg neato
17:47 * asciilifeform not tried anyffin 'fancy' with it, but does issue queries, return results, etc
17:48 billymg yeah, don't think i'll need anything fancy. i've started reading SICP and i think when i get far enough along in that i want to re-write my crawler in lisp
17:48 billymg not the www portion, just the actual crawler part
~ 37 minutes ~
18:26 mangol was some kinda consensus reached about file transfer over pest? would be nice to be able to broadcast "a file with this hash is available" and to ask the net "where can i get contents of file with this hash"
18:26 asciilifeform mangol: iirc signpost is working on this
18:27 mangol would this involve adding new message types?
18:29 asciilifeform mangol: almost certainly
18:29 mangol signpost: are you extending blatta or smalpest?
18:30 * asciilifeform last knew, he was working on the algo, but will let signpost answr concretely
18:30 * mangol has about half the code for a scheme client, not yet tested
18:30 asciilifeform mangol: neato!
18:31 mangol can add a "scheme.lisp" wrapper file for running the same code in CL implementations if there's interest. or one of the other lispers here can rewrite in CL
18:32 mangol my personal opinion is that CL and Scheme should be merged, but that's several years away at best, and very controversial
18:32 mangol tailor-made wrappers are not hard
18:35 PeterL for a lisp beginner, would you suggest learning scheme or CL?
18:36 mangol depends on your goals and personality. starting with either is fine
18:37 mangol elisp is also fine as a 1st lisp
18:37 mangol all of these have notable strengths and weaknesses
18:38 mangol if you feel a strong pull toward a particular dialect that you can't rationally explain, start with that one. curiosity is always the best motivator.
18:40 mangol otherwise, scheme is way more elegant and jewel-like than CL. CL is way more practical out of the gate.
18:41 mangol you can write CL about as elegant as Scheme, and Scheme about as practical as CL, but takes work
18:42 mangol CL's strength is that you get ~every way to solve a problem out of the box. weakness is that it's hard to resist mental masturbation
18:43 asciilifeform mangol: which scheme are you using ? ( standard dun include udp or much of any i/o.. )
18:43 mangol Scheme culture is very "get down to business", "just get it done". scheme programming doesn't really involve thinking about what tool to use.
18:43 mangol if you use ML (SML or OCaml), the many parallels to Scheme cannot be ignored
18:44 mangol if you go from Haskell to ML, it's the same "my god, these people just solve the problem and move on" culture shock as you get moving from CL to Scheme
18:46 mangol the reason there are so many scheme implementations and subsets is that we schemers do our mental masturbation on this level
18:46 mangol whereas common lispers do it within the confines of ANSI :)
18:47 mangol the "just get it done" culture is entirely enabled by recursion (tail calls and "named let") and higher-order functions
18:48 mangol you just use those for everything. a macro and a record type here and there, that's basically it
18:49 asciilifeform mangol: i thought the reason why over9000 scheme impls. is that the standard is largely missing i/o
18:49 mangol i never compare 5 different ways to solve something in scheme. in CL i did that all the time
18:50 mangol asciilifeform: the reason is just personality. the technical reason is simply that the standard is small enough that one person can implement it.
18:50 mangol schemers are an extremely individualistic bunch
18:56 mangol https://github.com/FFTW/fftw3/tree/master/genfft <-- this codebase is a good example of the "just get it done" culture -- this is in OCaml
18:56 mangol if you look at the source files, there's virtually no type wankery. just recursion and the types are mainly record types
18:56 mangol schemers use this same style
18:57 mangol the application needs to do something, you pop open a source file and there's straightforward recursive code for the application to do it
19:01 mangol asciilifeform: re which scheme -- if you want to replace a shell script use gauche, to replace a c program use chicken
19:01 mangol there are endless choices for more esoteric requirements
19:06 PeterL whoosh, all these terms are just going over my head.
19:06 mangol PeterL: are you familiar with the basics of recursion?
19:07 PeterL I believe so - a algorith that can call itself?
19:10 mangol yes. the classic "hello world": (define (factorial n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (factorial (- n 1)))))
19:11 mangol (map factorial (iota 10)) => (1 1 2 6 24 120 720 5040 40320 362880)
19:11 mangol factorial is a recursive function, and map is a higher-order function (i.e. takes another function as an argument, in this case we give it the factorial function)
19:12 mangol (iota 10) just gives the list (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
19:13 mangol the above is scheme code. you can do the same in CL but functional programming and recursion is somewhat less elegant there, so CL coders do less of iit
19:15 mangol recursion is hard to learn (for non-trivial use), but once you learn it becomes second nature. and in scheme (and ML) you can do almost everything with it, so you don't have to learn much else
19:16 PeterL why is it called iota and not range?
19:21 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087097 << ran production systems on it, worked great.
19:21 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 13:45:37 billymg: asciilifeform (or anyone): have you tried using this for hooking up postgres to SBCL? https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern
19:23 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087104 << determined to first fart out vtronic linux, then get to this.
19:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 14:26:06 asciilifeform: mangol: iirc signpost is working on this
19:23 signpost anyone who beats me to, entirely welcome, will help as I can
19:24 billymg PeterL: i am currently reading and working through the exercises in SICP and Thinking Recursively, i'd highly recommend both
19:24 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087107 << only code I've written is the fountain code impl on my blog, which is in python. that said, I've gotten about halfway into a CL impl of same with proper parallelism
19:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 14:28:51 mangol: signpost: are you extending blatta or smalpest?
19:25 billymg the first is in scheme (rather than lisp), but my understanding so far of the languages is that they're similar enough you can start with either to learn the fundamentals. the other book gives examples in Pascal, but i complete the exercises in scheme
19:25 signpost (blatta is in py, so can potentially pick up the py impl and refactor into using multiprocessing for parallelism. apparently this is possible upon shared numpy arrays)
19:25 signpost SICP was the item from MIT curriculum before they bent over for the industry and switched to python iirc.
19:25 * signpost took a girlfriend through it once upon a time.
19:26 PeterL mangol: I could write an almost identical function in python, is there something special that scheme brings?
19:27 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087121 << I found CL displaced arrays useful for the CL fountain code, perhaps there's similar in scheme
19:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 14:41:56 mangol: CL's strength is that you get ~every way to solve a problem out of the box. weakness is that it's hard to resist mental masturbation
19:27 * signpost imagines so.
19:28 signpost http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087128 << I suspect this "everybody has their own pet scheme utils" thing becomes a communication barrier when reading other people's code.
19:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 14:47:12 mangol: the "just get it done" culture is entirely enabled by recursion (tail calls and "named let") and higher-order functions
19:32 signpost PeterL: in re: python vs scheme, there are huge ideological differences that you may or may not care about.
19:32 signpost python came from an attempt at "end user programming", not unlike SQL. even got some DARPA money for this early on.
19:33 signpost from this you get the massive library of standard data structures, and the childlike rigid syntax.
19:33 signpost (and also that routinely python acts as a scripting language over "real programming" in C)
19:34 signpost scheme is designed from a perspective of (curious whether mangol is satisfied with this broad generalization) maximizing the leverage of expert programmers.
19:35 signpost this means boiling the language down to the fundamentals of programming, and giving the programmer tools to design higher-level language for their problem as they see fit.
19:36 signpost this isn't different from CL in my mind except that at a certain point folks that had done ^ independently came to some agreements at an industrial level on what much of the useful higher-level language was.
19:37 * signpost ftr isn't being a snob re: childlike syntax, wrote a product in python for ~decade, worked fine as a text munger in between db and webserver.
19:39 signpost risk of staying in a python for too long is you start saying "what's the bittorrent of pest" rather than "from first principles, how do I achieve efficient, fault-tolerant distribution of this byte-array among my friends that want it.
19:40 * signpost hears a lot of x of y thinking among startup bros, i.e. "uber of dog-grooming", "airbnb of community gardens"
~ 56 minutes ~
20:36 * asciilifeform regards pythonism as an item on the awk, sed, perl, etc 'dirty hacks' continuum
20:37 * asciilifeform would like to be rid of it
20:37 dulapbot Logged on 2020-07-18 20:01:25 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd dearly like to throw out the pythons, perls, sh atrocities, etc. in favour of sumthing that makes some semblance of sense (incl. when its binary thrown into objdump -D ... )
20:45 verisimilitude Shouldn't tabular programming be able to help there, asciilifeform, since most of the memory dump would be static data?
20:46 asciilifeform verisimilitude: perhaps oughta elaborate. in context, 'make sense when objdumped' meaning, a la e.g. 'm', weighing next to nuffin and invoking no external libs
20:47 asciilifeform i.e. being small enuff that someone could, if wants, choose to study it by squeezing the binary through disasmer of his choice and straight to printer
20:49 asciilifeform think back to '80s micro culture, when proggies often enuff were published in the shape of a pg or 3 of magazine fulla hexdump
20:50 asciilifeform reader was expected to be able & willing to make sense of it, even w/out 'source' in the usual sense being given.
20:50 asciilifeform for that matter, verisimilitude's proggies for his emulated micro, as i understand, are in similar style
20:53 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087138 << what asciilifeform would prefer would be to 'replace errything', with a minimal core + all necessary extensions running on top of same, eventually displacing the old sad os
20:53 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:00:36 mangol: asciilifeform: re which scheme -- if you want to replace a shell script use gauche, to replace a c program use chicken
20:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-17 14:55:09 asciilifeform: upstack, even w/out any prospective of 'moon missions', could start by 'localized' minimalism of defining a usable prog lang that can actually be implemented in <32kB x64 asm.
20:54 asciilifeform and to fughet about c entirely
20:55 mangol asciilifeform: your choices are forth and scheme, more or less
20:55 asciilifeform imho entirely feasible to have grand total of 32kB of executable x86 coad on the machine.
20:55 mangol or basic / lua / other flavor of the month
20:55 asciilifeform mangol: scheme (or a scheme-like statically scoped lisp) would be the ticket.
20:56 mangol for all intents and purposes, the whole lisp family is statically scoped in present times
20:57 mangol there are a few teenage impls that use dynamic scope, but no serious lispers use those
20:57 asciilifeform moore already did this exercise w/ forth. did not result in particularly usable system imho (not in fact a high level language, demands much of same 'sewing under magnifying glass' as simply writing in asm, in practice, to do anyffin nontrivial)
20:57 mangol they usually also bear other marks of teenage engineering, like randomly renaming all the operators and using diff. num. of parentheses for `let` and the like
20:58 mangol yes, moore's colorforth site and fireside chats were a goldmine of thought provoking stuff
20:59 mangol and yes, he tried "sourceless programming", was too much even for him
20:59 asciilifeform mangol: asciilifeform has nuffin against renaming operators, so long as there's some kinda logic behind it (e.g. asciilifeform himself used nonstandard ops in his forth-like 'peh')
21:01 mangol also re: asm, the core of scheme and ML is basically an assembly language for the lambda calculus
21:01 asciilifeform mangol: as showin in 'secd' etc, yes
21:02 asciilifeform getting the x86 nonsense (incl. toolchains) 100% outta the way in an absolute minimum of mass aint unimportant, however.
21:02 asciilifeform and to date, not seriously attempted afaik.
21:05 mangol if you want to end up with some subset of scheme in the end, i've done a lot of exploration on that
21:05 mangol as far as prog langs go, scheme is just about the best foundation for subsetting you can find
21:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087177 << there's a characteristic pattern among biologically-unoriginal types trying heroically to produce sumthing original.
21:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:39:42 signpost: hears a lot of x of y thinking among startup bros, i.e. "uber of dog-grooming", "airbnb of community gardens"
21:05 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-31 14:24:36 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: yarvin was evidently trying to emulate various 'giants of industry' in picking up public materials, giving'em a coat of paint, and then claiming 'inventions'
21:07 asciilifeform 'let's pound the square rod through the round hole with an over9000x bigger sledge.' 'and let's paint it purple' 'and use cloud disk' etc
21:07 mangol in fairness to the startup bros, the goal of a startup is to make money. if being "the uber of dog grooming" makes money, it's fair game.
21:08 mangol the business world doesn't look kindly upon original people anyway, unless they sacrifice a lot and get very lucky
21:09 asciilifeform it's the 3yo's 'creativity', and most dun grow past this stage.
21:09 asciilifeform ftr, pasta: 'It is useful, however, to distinguish between tinkering and creativity. Tinkering consists of exploring relatively minor variations on known themes, or subjecting new stimuli to an array of already known techniques. Thomas Kinkade rarely creates and mostly tinkers. Babies tinker constantly. They put every new object in their mouth. Eventually they figure out that most things are not good to eat. When they
21:09 asciilifeform develop motor control, they throw things. Serious curiosity consists of actively seeking new kinds of stimuli. Creativity consists of juxtaposing objects and ideas in new ways, and having a sound intuition for separating the significant result from the trivial… Now we can address the contention that children are innately curious. They are not in the sense used here – they are tinkerers. The commonplace observation
21:09 asciilifeform that children have short attention spans is direct refutation of the notion that they are creative and curious in any deep sense. The tragedy of our society is not that so many people outgrow their childlike curiosity, but that so few do. The adult equivalent of childlike curiosity is channel surfing and the ten-second sound bite.'
21:14 mangol open source / hacker culture wears "tinkerer" as a badge of pride. i never understood what's so awesome about tinkering. your quote finally puts it in the right perspective
21:15 mangol i always thought tinkering is boring and yearned to generalize. iirc as long as i've had access to a computer
21:16 mangol i.e. even as a kid, tinkering was boring
21:21 asciilifeform whole piece worth reading imho.
21:22 mangol yeah, great stuff
21:22 mangol thanks for linking it
21:24 mangol + always funny to see smart academics tiptoeing around politically sensitive topics where the layman's perspective is that the "heretic" in question is stating something pretty obvious
21:24 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087212 << very rarely is their objective to 'make money' in the superficially-claimed sense. normally rather is to pawn the thing an agent of the reich's printing press and walk.
21:24 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 17:07:02 mangol: in fairness to the startup bros, the goal of a startup is to make money. if being "the uber of dog grooming" makes money, it's fair game.
21:24 asciilifeform *to an
21:27 mangol "There is no persuasive evidence that any societies have ever had a high proportion of people who were deeply curious in a systematic, disciplined way."
21:28 mangol >> deeply curious and creative people are generalists, i.e. curious and creative about every topic. one of those topics is society itself. too many such people, everyone wants to shape society in his image
21:29 mangol over 9000 different scheme implementations ^W^W societies
21:29 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087186 Yes; most of the games I've documented, but didn't write, were only available in the form of sexadecimal dumps beforehand.
21:29 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 16:50:07 asciilifeform: for that matter, verisimilitude's proggies for his emulated micro, as i understand, are in similar style
21:31 verisimilitude Important, mangol, is the pattern of Insidious Optimizations.
21:31 mangol verisimilitude: sex dumps on tape. sex tapes.
21:32 verisimilitude Base six is a poor choice.
21:33 mangol there are 36-bit architectures
21:33 verisimilitude Yes, but those were sexier times.
21:39 mangol those were the days. and nights.
21:44 mangol verisimilitude: Does a free swap turn a stack into a traditional register set?
21:46 asciilifeform howthefuck can it be 'free' ?
21:47 verisimilitude It could be implicit from something else, say.
21:47 asciilifeform lulzily, current-day irons in fact do all kindsa ~entirely undocumented 'register renaming' and similar attempts to silently turn 1 instr into entirely other, behind the scenes
21:48 asciilifeform and as result of it happening in undocumented iron, programmer has 0 control over it, and often enuff makes ~impossible to actually optimize as a consequence
21:49 verisimilitude That's not a real stack, mangol.
21:51 verisimilitude That architecture is still gross, mangol.
21:52 verisimilitude What relevance has it to me, mangol?
21:52 mangol you were talking about registers in the post you linked
21:54 verisimilitude Alright.
21:54 verisimilitude The latter of the pair is the better read.
21:55 mangol the Elision article. you linked it a few days back
21:57 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087149 << the name "iota" is from APL iirc
21:57 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:15:23 PeterL: why is it called iota and not range?
21:59 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087162 << guaranteed tail calls so you can tail-recurse over a huge data structure or number range and not blow the stack
21:59 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:25:29 PeterL: mangol: I could write an almost identical function in python, is there something special that scheme brings?
22:00 mangol however, (define (factorial n) (if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (factorial (- n 1)))) is not tail recursive
22:02 mangol (define (factorial n) (let loop ((product 1) (n n)) (if (<= n 1) product (loop (* product n) (- n 1))))) is a tail recursive version
22:02 mangol kinda hard to read on irc
22:03 mangol but the idea is, the last thing that `loop` does is call itself
22:04 mangol hence "tail"
22:04 mangol a compiler or interpreter can turn the call into a jump. no need to allocate a new stack frame, can overwrite existing frame
22:05 mangol a Python, Common Lisp, or C compiler/interpreter can do that, but Scheme coding style is centered entirely around tail calls
22:09 mangol having it guaranteed in the spec means you can safely use recursion anywhere you'd use iteration in other langs
22:10 mangol which means people end up using recursion all over the place, which in turn means people don't bother to add iteration constructs to the language
22:10 mangol so you end up with a drastically different coding style. kinda like comparing infix vs postfix calculators. you can compute the same stuff, but completely different feel
22:11 mangol re:minimalism, recursion is universal enough that you can make a really compact langauge (R5RS spec is 50 pages) that also yields really compact programs
22:12 mangol usually compact programs require a sophisticated, complex language implementation. conversely, a compact lang impl is too wimpy to support compact programs
22:12 mangol basing the language around recursion lets you have both
22:16 mangol i'm an essentialist when it comes to languages. every prog lang has essential features that lead to a characteristic coding style, and the rest of the well-known features of the language are just historical accidents.
22:18 verisimilitude The solution to a recursive algorithm in APL is to seek a closed form.
22:18 mangol tail recursion elimination is the essential feature that leads directly to scheme's characteristic coding style (in stark contrast to CL and other lisps)
22:20 mangol Lisp = code is lists; Emacs Lisp = Lisp + closures; Scheme = Lisp + closures + tail calls; CL = Lisp + closures +generic functions
22:21 mangol verisimilitude: "closed form" approx. = convergence?
22:22 verisimilitude I believe so.
22:24 verisimilitude The closed form of (SUM (RANGE 1 N)) is (* (/ N 2) (+ 1 N)).
22:28 mangol neat. does that technique work mainly for numbers or more generally, e.g. for trees?
22:28 verisimilitude Rephrase that.
22:30 mangol take e.g. a HTML document represented as a tree of elements, and recurse over that -- filtering, adding, or removing nodes, or computing some kind of summary of them
22:30 mangol in principle, any tree can be represented as an array
22:32 verisimilitude I guess so.
22:44 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087171 << python's main achievement was to show that most of what people thought is "real programming" is basically just scripting. a laudable feat
22:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:32:39 signpost: (and also that routinely python acts as a scripting language over "real programming" in C)
22:47 mangol http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087172 << quite close - maximizing leverage with a minimal core, afaict.
22:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 15:34:03 signpost: scheme is designed from a perspective of (curious whether mangol is satisfied with this broad generalization) maximizing the leverage of expert programmers.
22:49 mangol lua later designed using the same principle, to good effect
22:49 mangol and earlier, forth
22:50 mangol and apl and prolog
~ 40 minutes ~
23:31 verisimilitude I'm to understand Prolog is a weakened PLANNER.
23:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087280 << was already apparent in perl era
23:37 dulapbot Logged on 2022-03-22 18:43:55 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087171 << python's main achievement was to show that most of what people thought is "real programming" is basically just scripting. a laudable feat
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