Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-09-03 | 2018-09-05 → ↓
04:17 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=8 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR log summary - 09/01/2018
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/06/29/the-moving-process-in-montevideo-continues/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - The Moving Process In Montevideo Continues
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/07/05/settling-into-apartment-life/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Settling Into Apartment Life
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/07/07/a-look-at-fraudball-the-terrible-spectator-sport/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - A Look At Fraudball, The Terrible Spectator Sport
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/07/14/the-joy-of-morcilla-dulce/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - The Joy Of Morcilla Dulce
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/07/28/meet-harry/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Meet Harry
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/07/29/casa-boingo-a-photo-tour/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Casa Boingo - A Photo Tour
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/08/02/selected-costs-associated-with-furnishing-casa-boingo-for-the-curious/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Selected Costs Associated With Furnishing Casa Boingo For The Curious
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/08/10/3-days-of-loaves/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - 3 Days Of Loaves
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/08/27/peso-watch-august-edition/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Peso Watch August Edition
04:18 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/08/29/waking-up-into-spring/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Waking Up Into Spring
~ 5 hours 58 minutes ~
10:16 diana_coman asciilifeform, trinque in case it helps, the kernel option I need to turn on in order to be able to run iptables on the smg machine is networking support/networking options/network packet filtering framework/core netfilter configuration/netfilter xtables support
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10:17 trinque sounds right to me; there are myriad other kernel options for various rule types for iptables
10:20 mircea_popescu this sounds like a terrible way to go about it. what, fiddling with iptables = kernel rebuild ? why even have a scriptable config if this is how it goes, jaysus
10:29 trinque I can't anticipate every single use case someone's going to have.
10:29 trinque or could otherwise just bundle every single module and driver.
10:29 mircea_popescu we're not even discussing you, here. i was talking about iptables.
10:29 trinque which isn't how I run my own kernels at all.
10:30 trinque ah, yeah, API to hook to some userland filter proggie and be done with it, eh?
10:30 trinque but then the Linux kernel even has in-built TLS support these days (at least optional, for now)
10:30 mircea_popescu it's my understanding that the point of adding scriptability to a program is exactly that : to permit changes in its functioning ("configuration") without requiring a whole recompile. much like the point of adding a steering wheel in a car is to permit the car to take arbitrary curves, as scripted at time of driving. rather than having to driver (how?) car back to factory get a new one with the differently inclined wheelbase.
10:30 mircea_popescu even though a car with fixed wheel inclination would be more robust and cheaper to build.
10:31 mircea_popescu so in this sense, if "iptables" as a module requires recompilation in order for the scripting to work, it's exactly like a car which, upon turning the wheel, puts up an order for a new car via the useful app instead of turning the wheels.
10:31 mircea_popescu ie, anti-useful.
10:32 mircea_popescu now, it boggles my mind that this is how it'd fucking work. is it ?!
10:33 trinque more like "if you want to filter by bandwidth throughput instead of source/dest IP, gotta add new module"
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10:34 mircea_popescu well this promises to be a serio0us problem that can't be winged, but will require some thought ; in part because i don't directly see the difference ; and in part because i don't really think a machine without a functioning way to limit access to it is actually seaworthy.
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10:34 mircea_popescu i mean, it'd be ok for a terminal. but as a server it gotta have something-like-iptables neh ?
10:37 trinque there is an extremely broad category of possible iptables/netfilter doodads with which to make a firewall, router, etc. I could certainly see use in defining a subset of what's available as standard.
10:39 trinque iirc diana_coman is running an asciilifeform kernel, but I think alf approaches kernels similarly to me: "nothing broke when I turned this off, so off" until that heuristic bumps into something. going to be different bumps in different deployments.
10:40 diana_coman it is asciilifeform's kernel indeed; iptables or something else to limit access though I think is a must on a server
10:40 mircea_popescu trinque kinda what i was thinking here, spend an hour thinking what'd make the cut, put it in, and that's it.
10:41 mircea_popescu diana_coman 's thing above serving as a "no less than" seeing how minigame is a major downstream adopter ; and the usual "more loc ?! fu!" as a "no more than" driver.
10:41 mircea_popescu make a cut between and that's it.
10:43 trinque worx for me
10:44 mircea_popescu but yes, evidently the (undiagnosed ; are these people morons ?!) problem is that "anything could be a firewall rule", ie, this is a place where the scripting turns upon the whole machine state. which makes me suspoect there's a more fundamental error at work somewhere (possibly the very attempt to build a pantsuit net, allcomers-based, possibly something else), but until we get a fix on that...
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10:44 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847258 << diana_coman i was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that i built smg box with iptables-able kernel. but was not ?
10:44 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 14:16 diana_coman: asciilifeform, trinque in case it helps, the kernel option I need to turn on in order to be able to run iptables on the smg machine is networking support/networking options/network packet filtering framework/core netfilter configuration/netfilter xtables support
10:44 asciilifeform or was simply 1 ~component~ of iptables absent ( there's somewhere like 50+ 'optionals' in the list )
10:44 trinque diana_coman: mind throwing me your kernel .config for comparison with mine?
10:45 asciilifeform zcat /proc/conf.gz > foo
10:45 diana_coman asciilifeform, original box did not have iptables support, no
10:45 asciilifeform diana_coman: aah we're speaking of the april box
10:45 asciilifeform yes, iirc it did not, given as it was a physical clone of mine, which at the time also did not.
10:45 asciilifeform diana_coman: if you copy kernel from the 2nd smg box, you get iptables.
10:46 diana_coman asciilifeform, I have iptables atm; the idea was to have it by default on any new config/box/system
10:47 mircea_popescu the other idea being that apparently it's not even strictly speaking clear what "have iptables" means.
10:47 asciilifeform diana_coman: fwiw it comes by default with all asciilifeform-prepared boxen nao, incl. all new rk customer.
10:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform which modules did you end up putting in ?
10:47 trinque aha, "what does firewall mean to /me/ ?"
10:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is entirely so, take a look at the kernel config list sometime, it is a riot of ???
10:47 mircea_popescu yes well.
10:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc i posted the config, lessee, :
10:47 mircea_popescu let's import as little turd in sausage as we can.
10:48 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-12#1833855 <<
10:48 a111 Logged on 2018-07-12 15:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform's old kernel consists of hand-selected modules, corresponding to dulap-III irons, config can be seen here, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/conf_current.conf
10:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you gotta get better at labeling. "old" here is "not april ; but thje later one" ?
10:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: july 11, 1300 hrs , '18
10:49 mircea_popescu alright. is this your latest, ie, current kernel ?
10:49 diana_coman and just so it doesn't get forgotten, any new config should have xhci turned off as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-01#1838824
10:49 a111 Logged on 2018-08-01 21:28 diana_coman: after reading around on this mess with the usb speeds, the summary + questions would be: 1. the dwc_otg seems actually specific to raspberry pi so I don't see how it's directly useful atm; am I missing something? 2. the manual/runtime pill so far relies on the companion mechanism to force a USB port down from "high speed" to "full speed" so basically from ehci to uhci/ohci; wouldn't it make more sense to blacklist ehci, xhci and whatever
10:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: for x86 -- yes
10:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: for rk , separate, and recently updated ( pending publication )
10:50 mircea_popescu alright. so basically, we have a july latest-kernel from alf at http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/conf_current.conf << diana_coman trinque erryone else interested read and see if it works for you / comment ?
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10:50 trinque diana_coman: that's going to have speed implications for anyone attaching an external drive, neh?
10:50 * trinque rereads thread
10:50 mircea_popescu yeah ; we have a FG vs external-ssd issue baking ;/
10:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: note that this kernel is tailored to dulap-style box (i.e. amd, and with that particular raid card)
10:51 mircea_popescu ah right, days of general-purpose kernel also pre-2018 item huh.
10:51 trinque yep that throws out usb 3.0
10:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i still dunget why it has to be issue, usb hub can be dialed down to desired speed with method described on FG www pg
10:52 asciilifeform ( i discovered the method quite early, in the days of mass FG tests, but did not know the sheer number of sad boxen / kernels afflicted, that turn out to need it )
10:52 mircea_popescu alright. it seems the logical cut here is to disentangle trinque from kernel talk. go ye and make cuntoo ; wtf will we do with the kernels, this is rapidly reverting to 1800s standards of engineering, "die with knowledge"
10:52 asciilifeform fwiw kernel is ~entirely separate affair from userland.
10:53 trinque except that the product of the build isn't bootable without one, but build takes the kernel config as a parameter, so it can indeed be entirely separate
10:53 mircea_popescu yes, but... "here's one for amd with raid so and so and fg no external ssd" "here's one for the vibrating bulled you gotta wear per mp orders" "here's one for..." we'll catch our ears.
10:53 asciilifeform trinque: specifically i mean that kernel is built ~for the iron~ rather than 'for the userland'
10:53 trinque indeed
10:53 * trinque bbl
10:53 asciilifeform so if you have a working kernel for a particular iron, you can use it with cuntoo, regardless of what shape cuntoo takes.
10:54 mircea_popescu ~regardless
10:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 'iron babel' of x86 means that there is not and never has been such a thing as 'general purpose kernel'. there exist of course the fraudulent imitations, of shituntu etc. where they roll in 500MB of ??? 'all possible modules' , but it is beneath contempt
10:55 mircea_popescu myeah
10:57 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847272 << this is correct, there's a lengthy list of 'optionals' , and not only in iptables, but for just about errything
10:57 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 14:33 trinque: more like "if you want to filter by bandwidth throughput instead of source/dest IP, gotta add new module"
10:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847273 << at the time i built the 1st kernel for these particular iron, i was not using (believe or not) iptables, was quite disappointed with the 'whack-a-mole' approach to bandwidth conservation
10:59 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 14:34 mircea_popescu: well this promises to be a serio0us problem that can't be winged, but will require some thought ; in part because i don't directly see the difference ; and in part because i don't really think a machine without a functioning way to limit access to it is actually seaworthy.
11:00 asciilifeform i ended up going back to it, largely to use the aws-ban script
11:00 diana_coman asciilifeform, what did you use then? I'm not a huge fan of iptables in any way and this have-to-recompile-kernel doesn't help but I don't know of anything else that is better
11:01 mircea_popescu or at least workable.
11:01 asciilifeform diana_coman: i used nothing at all. given as bandwidth hogs dun seem to ever have any trouble coming up with ~infinite new ip proxies.
11:02 diana_coman the fact that some still do doesn't really = they have no trouble
11:03 asciilifeform diana_coman: collectively.
11:04 asciilifeform at one time asciilifeform burned 20-40min erry day manually banning . then got tired of this and went to properly optimize the phuctor db so that it doesn't give a damn re load, up to line speed.
11:05 asciilifeform recently finished, and rolled out.
11:06 mircea_popescu ie, "the problem with iptables is that as defined can not exist" ?
11:06 asciilifeform i won't go as far as 'iptables is addictively useless' but: nearly
11:06 asciilifeform it is a fly swatter.
11:07 asciilifeform fly swatter is not a viable method of serious pest control.
11:07 mircea_popescu this is such a tempting notion to invest...
11:07 mircea_popescu diana_coman can i get you behind this "iptables are for amateurs" line ?
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11:08 asciilifeform i do know that many people's pest control setups rely on iptables, and so all new pizarro customers will get it by default. but imho it is a bitter pill.
11:08 diana_coman I am very, very tempted but precisely for this reason still trying to make sure I'm not just preferring the easy way out here
11:09 mircea_popescu diana_coman thinking logically : either this is a problem or it isn't. if it is a problem, then it should be handled upstream not by server.
11:09 mircea_popescu i suspect "iptables" is like "php implementation of ftp" : most people don't have their own isp.
11:09 mircea_popescu this is a sorry reason to have things.
11:09 diana_coman that much I can see, yes
11:09 mircea_popescu i misspoke. i meant "this is a sorry reason to write code."
11:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: another important fact to remember : ip rules inevitably slow traffic.
11:10 asciilifeform there is no way around this.
11:10 mircea_popescu code written to circumvent administrative failure is possibily the source of wank. 20yo who "fought idiot vice-principal" with code rathere than club.
11:10 mircea_popescu if the wrong "rules" of the administrative office get in the way, the only acceptable solutionb is to fucking burn it down.
11:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the rate this is going, i guess nsa will soon be in the business of producing flood-fighters ; considering what the "professional" crapola out there costs...
11:12 mircea_popescu this can turn out to be quite lucrative.
11:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: serious floods are a problem not at the level of our rack, but upstream
11:12 asciilifeform ( iirc mircea_popescu knew this long ago )
11:12 asciilifeform and moreover, they are a problem with the basic design of (for the most part) tcp.
11:12 mircea_popescu there's nothing saying pizarro isn't building its own dc.
11:13 diana_coman if I understand correctly asciilifeform's solution is essentially not as much kill the pest as make the whole thing pest-resilient
11:13 asciilifeform hey, not only dc, but asciilifeform actively at work on... own net fabric
11:13 asciilifeform but this won't be born tomorrow.
11:13 asciilifeform diana_coman: correct.
11:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you understand, item by cisco/friends not amounting to a rockchip plant sells to usg.tards for 100k sorta money.
11:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i know this, had the misfortune of buying'em, plugging in, fiddling.
11:14 mircea_popescu entirely worthless junk it is, too.
11:14 asciilifeform largely yes
11:14 asciilifeform ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware )
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11:15 mircea_popescu yup
11:15 asciilifeform some of the fancier units have fpga for filtrations
11:15 asciilifeform but there is no way around the 'lookup table entries cost time & space' thing
11:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform seriously, since we're apparently not selling the rockchip plant to pizarro : how about you build it and make it a "cyberflood master 9000" ?
11:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: let's expand on this. what specific functionality would you want in such a device ?
11:16 mircea_popescu plugs directly into datacenter's colocation, filters out "bad" traffic.
11:17 asciilifeform possibly i did not clearly explain the problem with iptables then ?
11:17 mircea_popescu possibly i didn't make it plain enough that SUCH AN ITEM ALREADY IS PLUGGED IN THERE ?
11:17 asciilifeform it's an algorithmic problem ( i.e. fundamental ), rather than implementation.
11:17 mircea_popescu just make a better one.
11:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: for all i know, they have a microshit antivirus also plugged in. should we then also attempt 'better one' of these as well ?
11:17 mircea_popescu since you're not using any hot glue guns, the task is suprisingly easy.
11:17 asciilifeform whole approach is braindamaged imho
11:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if "av" sold for six figures. it doesn't.
11:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-23#1774656 << thread
11:18 a111 Logged on 2018-01-23 06:28 mircea_popescu: do you understand the crystal ball problem ?
11:18 mircea_popescu this has the essential veblen good blessing, being a hardware box.
11:18 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847347 -> for amateurs and incompetent dc-s it seems, yes
11:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:07 mircea_popescu: diana_coman can i get you behind this "iptables are for amateurs" line ?
11:18 mircea_popescu i got news for you, alfie! http://trilema.com/2018/how-things-have-changed/
11:18 asciilifeform the buyer's entire objective is to scratch a usg-kowtow itch by blowing those six figs on 'best practice' witch repellent.
11:18 mircea_popescu republic is rapidly becoming chief witch.
11:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: so we're talking , approx, 'juniper but w/out the ftmeade magic key' ?
11:19 mircea_popescu and without the hotglue gb nics and without the derpy fpga "we dunno how to use things".
11:19 mircea_popescu juniper w/o the carload of monkeys.
11:20 asciilifeform unless i misunderstand somewhere, this needs ic fab.
11:20 mircea_popescu (for the newly born : carload of moneys "know tricks". right.)
11:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what for ?
11:20 asciilifeform for nic PHY that doesn't answer to washington magicpacket.
11:20 mircea_popescu neveryoumind that part.
11:20 asciilifeform if you dun have this, you build a juniper whether wanted to or not.
11:21 mircea_popescu BUT A BETTER ONE.
11:21 asciilifeform better how ??
11:21 mircea_popescu you keep thinking in these absolute terms. sometimes relative terms are important.
11:21 mircea_popescu better in that it will expose pantsuit packets to us, for instance.
11:21 trinque better in that it liberates their cash into your hand so you can goto 10
11:21 asciilifeform for one thing, if you can't fab ic, you inevitably 'hot glue konsoomer GB nics'
11:21 mircea_popescu better in that also. better in the sense that it'll use less wattage to do the same ~nothing.
11:22 asciilifeform moar wattage, because will need 1 nic per jack.
11:22 mircea_popescu trinque can you believe these people ?!
11:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform why would you not want to do this ?! it's beyond comprehension.
11:22 asciilifeform i'd luvv to do it. but to ~actually~ do it, as opposed to junkyard wars ersatz that will inevitably suck.
11:23 mircea_popescu ...
11:23 mircea_popescu most battles are won by sucking less!
11:23 asciilifeform open one of those junipers, there's a vlsi turd that actually does the routing.
11:23 asciilifeform ( at least in the recent ones )
11:25 trinque "can't steal and sell sov tanks because to hell with the communists" to my ears
11:25 asciilifeform trinque: am i thick, and mircea_popescu right ? how do i bake a 'sucks less than juniper' while being stuck with off-the-shelf nic ic ?
11:25 mircea_popescu more's like "cant steal ~half the gold from this bank until someone comes with a credible plan to also steal the bricks from the walls"
11:26 trinque asciilifeform: I think your mind is set on correctness, which blocks a pragmatic "better" which is only defined by delta with competition
11:26 mircea_popescu i dunno how he's supposed to be from odessa, don't got not a gypsy bone in his body.
11:27 * diana_coman can see both positions really
11:27 asciilifeform trinque: 'competition' box routes 1G/s from 48 jacks, daisy-chains with 10GB/s snakes, compiles ip filter rules into 1mil+ gate fpga fabric. how do i bake a sucks-less without large fpga ? ( we dun have large fpga, tho we do have working tiny ones )
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11:28 diana_coman from a tech point of view the trouble with "better by delta" is that you are then stuck dealing with the remaining shit anyway; but sometimes it's still the way to go
11:29 asciilifeform now what i ~have~ wanted to bake, for years nao, is a box with ~2~ jacks, that tests rsa sigs on specially-defined packets at line speed, and drops all the ones that dun pass. this is imho the Right Thing, for entirely curing the disease in question.
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11:29 asciilifeform but this already was formalized by mircea_popescu as gossipd variant.
11:30 asciilifeform the 'allow allcomers but magically filter badness' juniper thing, imho is dead end.
11:30 mircea_popescu let me make this perfectly actionable for you.
11:30 * asciilifeform listens
11:31 mircea_popescu so, you're paying good money to have BingoBoingo on the ground there ; what "on the ground means" is that he can go to dc and say "hey guise, will you test this box we make ? no charge". IF they agree, and IF you have made the tmsruniper, and IF indeed they come out of it thinking they're better off with that, THEN you can sell it for credit, and not need to do more wires. yes ?
11:32 mircea_popescu speaking of which, BingoBoingo you ARE making cozy with dc tech people rite ? taking them out to smoke & crimping them to pot or w/e it is they do socially there ?
11:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what means 'test' here ? they'll put customer traffic through it instead of juniper ?
11:32 mircea_popescu precisely.
11:32 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: let's do a 0cost experiment, why dontcha float the idea to the dc people, see reaction.
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11:32 mircea_popescu dude. you don't have the box.
11:33 asciilifeform i admit i dun grasp, why, having already fronted 500k to usg.juniper, they would entertain a 'try my homemade router plz'
11:33 mircea_popescu i have not yet encountered a dc which didn't have a waffle list composed mostly of junishits.
11:33 asciilifeform what's a waffle list
11:34 mircea_popescu waffle list here being "well... do we need it ? maybe we need it ? let's get it ? wait a while ? hmm ?"
11:34 mircea_popescu like a social media "wish list", but for people who actually have some money.
11:34 asciilifeform a
11:35 trinque gotta demo to sell these things, and gotta know what causes them pain to know what to demo
11:35 asciilifeform i must repeat, that i'd be lying if i claimed that i knew how to build a box that throws packets at even 1/5th the rate of the cheapest juniper, out of off-the-shelf components.
11:35 mircea_popescu often you can sorta guess.
11:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform really ? how come ?
11:36 asciilifeform cuz konsoomer off-the-shelf ic dun do it.
11:36 mircea_popescu seems to me eminently beatable.
11:36 trinque (and is BingoBoingostan buying top shelf?)
11:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform 100% they also BUY the gear.
11:36 mircea_popescu i dunno what the fuck you think juniper is ; but as a factual matter juniper is the result of exactly this conversation among dumber people ~15 years ago.
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11:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ao4dQEtE6oc/VQ6JeUf9pkI/AAAAAAAADVk/hrSWedKzCG0/s1600/blog1_qfx10k_3.jpeg
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11:37 mircea_popescu and no, they don't own a special-nic-foundry.
11:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can't blogspot.
11:37 asciilifeform 1s
11:37 mircea_popescu a ty
11:37 mircea_popescu lobbes archiver got it for me./
11:37 asciilifeform they dun ~own~ fab, of course, just as google doesn't. they contract the fab.
11:38 asciilifeform like e.g. hewlett-packard, (the late) sun micro, most folx.
11:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so ? i see your junkl and raise you our junk : http://nosuchlabs.com/fg/fg_small.jpg
11:38 asciilifeform there are no asics in fg..
11:38 asciilifeform cuz we can't afford to bake'em yet.
11:38 mircea_popescu looking at the pics reddit can't tell the difference.
11:38 mircea_popescu we have TWO metallic squares ; and ours have holes in them!
11:38 asciilifeform i suspect even reddit can use a clock, tell diff b/w 10G/s router and 1M/s
11:39 asciilifeform lol
11:39 mircea_popescu so it's your expert oppinion you can't actually make a better one ?
11:39 asciilifeform not with the currently available means, no
11:39 asciilifeform it'd cost a couplea mil (orcbux)
11:39 mircea_popescu wtf does that mean ?
11:40 mircea_popescu if i've learned anything about you over the years is that you're absolutely never right as to what anything costs.
11:40 asciilifeform would need 1) fab capability 2) substantial time, unless mircea_popescu has a coupla qualified pairs of hands up his sleeve to assist
11:40 mircea_popescu why 2 ?
11:40 asciilifeform cuz it's a complicated mechanism.
11:40 mircea_popescu why ?
11:42 asciilifeform thing needs to eat packets, parse fields, sort'em into tables, parallelize lookups ( and below all of this, do such things as driving the sdram , the nic PHYs , shuttle data b/w processors )
11:42 mircea_popescu this doesn't sound like more than a few hundred adalines.
11:42 asciilifeform if you want 'modern' (Gb/s+) throughputs, it aint 'ada lines', but transistors. coupla mil of'em.
11:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847373 << i got a bsd box right here btw ; cost me nothing, took in as junk.
11:43 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:14 asciilifeform: ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware )
11:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: entirely so, but these won't http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847426
11:43 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:27 asciilifeform: trinque: 'competition' box routes 1G/s from 48 jacks, daisy-chains with 10GB/s snakes, compiles ip filter rules into 1mil+ gate fpga fabric. how do i bake a sucks-less without large fpga ? ( we dun have large fpga, tho we do have working tiny ones )
11:44 mircea_popescu so work with tiny ones.
11:44 asciilifeform the ice40 tops out at 250MHz (and drops rapidly when you fill it up, from switch fabric propagation delay)
11:45 mircea_popescu but you can have 1k of these lined up.
11:45 asciilifeform it is also pretty cramped sizewise (recall, i was not able to fit a single 4kbit adder into it)
11:45 asciilifeform 1k of these will eat 5kWatt.
11:45 mircea_popescu sooo ?
11:45 asciilifeform and occupy entire cabinet.
11:45 mircea_popescu that was the idea yes, acabinet.
11:45 asciilifeform so we want to make and sell a cray-1 ?
11:46 mircea_popescu actually, i was thinking, the tiny ices you use could be an intermediate step -- think alf, instead of fabric-of-transistors, fabric-of-ice
11:46 asciilifeform well yes, i've wanted 1 for ages. but if you add up the cost of a dozen of these, you could instead get equiv fabbed into single die.
11:46 mircea_popescu if it can process 100Gp/s rather than juniper's mahahahaybe 10Gp, nobody cares it eats a kw.
11:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, part of the reason i've been working on getting some chinese ppls is that i entirely don';t believe single die fabbing is as expensive today as you think.
11:48 mircea_popescu however, before you make dies you gotta know what you put in ; and i know of no other way to find out.
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11:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is almost certainly possible to razor a zero or even two, from the 'ratecard', if you can make friends in cn (or even tw, or kr)
11:49 mircea_popescu or three.
11:49 asciilifeform esp. if you're biznis genius and can talk'em into 'you get % of the winnings' in exch for discounts etc
11:49 asciilifeform the miner asic derps, somehow pulled this off
11:50 asciilifeform however i suspect that 'alt-juniper' would be small change, if we had fab friends, oughta go straight to general-purpose washington-free comp.
11:50 asciilifeform simpler, oddly enuff, engineering problem, also.
11:50 asciilifeform !#s mips.v
11:50 a111 3 results for "mips.v", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=mips.v
11:50 asciilifeform ^ subj
11:51 mircea_popescu absolutely not.
11:51 asciilifeform ~100 ln of verilog.
11:54 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847498 << iirc i answered this in the past, but this thread makes it even moar obvious what the pill is : make a hypertrophied ice40 (i.e. homogeneous lattice of gates.) with these, can bake alt-juniper, alt-pc, crypto, pretty much anyffing you like.
11:54 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:48 mircea_popescu: however, before you make dies you gotta know what you put in ; and i know of no other way to find out.
11:54 asciilifeform and can chain'em into 'cray' at will.
11:55 asciilifeform ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-17#1814886 and elsewhere )
11:55 a111 Logged on 2018-05-17 18:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if we had any fab capacity to speak of, these'd be the priority items : 1) large homogeneous fpga 2) otp roms 3) 1+2
11:55 mircea_popescu mno, because drops rapidly when you fill it up
11:56 asciilifeform not mega-problem if you have large fabric, leaves lotsa room for optimal connection
11:56 asciilifeform it's an egregious problem in cramped fpga.
11:56 mircea_popescu from experience large items are cramped.
11:57 mircea_popescu that's why town is tight and village loose.
11:57 asciilifeform not if they're 5cents and you can matrix'em together.
11:57 asciilifeform usg.fpga is expensive because 'intellectual property' derpitude.
11:57 mircea_popescu all these lofty considerations aside...
11:57 asciilifeform imho 'sane fpga' is closest thing to 'philosopher's stone' accessible with current tech.
11:57 mircea_popescu are you making the alt juniper or arent you ?
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11:58 asciilifeform if problem is defined in such a way that i can honestly say that i have from what to make it, and can be made to work to spec -- will make. otherwise not.
11:58 mircea_popescu alrite.
11:59 asciilifeform 'are you launching capsule into orbit or not' 'plox to 1st say, where is orbit, how big capsule, tovarisch stalin'
11:59 asciilifeform 'and do we have rockets or only slingshots'
11:59 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847373
11:59 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:14 asciilifeform: ( 'industrial' telco gear is pretty much 'bsd box with array of GB nics soldered in' + some shitware )
11:59 mircea_popescu in your own words!
12:00 asciilifeform rright, but in current (vs 20y ago) dc , they also incl. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847454 .
12:00 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ao4dQEtE6oc/VQ6JeUf9pkI/AAAAAAAADVk/hrSWedKzCG0/s1600/blog1_qfx10k_3.jpeg
12:00 mircea_popescu what can i tell you.
12:01 asciilifeform i dun disagree with mircea_popescu one bit, in re 'juniper/cisco Must Die'. but their death cannot be made from shoe string and bubble gum.
12:01 mircea_popescu i suppose one possible conclusion would be that "yes, indeed http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847453 ; but the time to do that was PRECISELY 15 years ago ; having smarter people doesn't compensate for being late, here as everywhere else".
12:01 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:36 mircea_popescu: i dunno what the fuck you think juniper is ; but as a factual matter juniper is the result of exactly this conversation among dumber people ~15 years ago.
12:01 asciilifeform asciilifeform's research into finessing this problem, and 'yes bubble gum', so far reduces to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847428 hypothesis
12:01 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:29 asciilifeform: now what i ~have~ wanted to bake, for years nao, is a box with ~2~ jacks, that tests rsa sigs on specially-defined packets at line speed, and drops all the ones that dun pass. this is imho the Right Thing, for entirely curing the disease in question.
12:02 mircea_popescu which is not coincidentally how everything works, bitcoin, the republic, the lordship, etcetera.
12:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: arguably. at one time asic was too costly even for the telcos to deploy en masse, and it was possible to do without. sorta like in mining.
12:04 asciilifeform the box that entirely displaces the traditional ip routing system, and instead worx on signed packets, at GB/s, ~can~ , i suspect, be made with off-the-shelf iron. but it is a different pill, i cannot argue that it directly replaces juniperism.
12:05 mircea_popescu that hangs on various radio things.
12:05 asciilifeform radio is orthogonal.
12:05 asciilifeform the basic mechanics are same, whether carrier is radio, copper, or optics.
12:05 mircea_popescu technologically orthogonal ; but business requsite.
12:06 asciilifeform can carry over conventional fibers, or even telephone modem.
12:06 asciilifeform i daren't to presume to know whether biznis-requisite, that's a 100% mircea_popescu-grade puzzler.
12:07 mircea_popescu you don't really gain so much by having your special packets encapsulated in tcp
12:07 mircea_popescu and you're not in a position to lay cable just yet
12:07 mircea_popescu so...
12:08 asciilifeform even carrying in ordinary ip net, you gain the fact of '9000+' nodes that speak only to each other, and ddos of '9000' nodes, even if somehow all of'em were known to enemy, is impractical.
12:08 asciilifeform sorta how btc p2p net existingly worx.
12:10 asciilifeform observe that trb in fact worx pretty well, even though mircea_popescu did not lay cable.
12:11 asciilifeform this being said, eventual getting off usg.net is a godly thing, and inescapable . but it aint a desperate pre-req to routing sanity, imho.
12:11 mircea_popescu you know, the 2nd thing i know from watching you is that this conversation suddenly spinning in circles pretty well predicts you knew you were wrong re other call.
12:11 asciilifeform usg.tor was precisely the 'faux-phuctor' they built to distract thinking folx from the very idea.
12:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is always possible that i am wrong about some ( who knows, all ) piece. sorta why it is good to have dozen d00dz, vs 1 or 2, with hands growing from correct place
12:13 mircea_popescu well yes, but the question before you is, "have i actually sat down, thought this through, and it dun work" or is it a case of "my first impulse was so and so and now i'm stuck with it like any 9 yo" ?
12:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i sat down and worked through it on several occasions, most recently during gossipd thread; prior to that, when i was in slave galley and tore own hair out with juniperism; and prior...
12:15 mircea_popescu alright, well.
12:15 asciilifeform and recall, at one time asciilifeform burned 6mo+ to try and bring up realtek GB nic from 'raw iron', in the end did not even succeed in this
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12:16 mircea_popescu yeah.
12:16 asciilifeform possible that my hands do not grow from correct place, or possible that if mircea_popescu had chinese gurl, she could steal the missing datashit..
12:16 mircea_popescu possibly!
12:17 mircea_popescu at least we managed to come to a narrative that stands to cursory examination.
12:17 mircea_popescu "yes it's true telco gear is mostly openbsd box with nics glued on ; but it's also true that is mostly old ; replacing it, when it happens, is mostly with nobusisms baked by the chinese to order, and it's a tough racket."
12:17 asciilifeform afaik this is correct sum.
12:20 mircea_popescu whether there is a hole there or isn't is an iffier problem. i am not overconcerned with it ; understand that wheever, in the großer generalstab or corporate boardroom, the story's always the same : "and we should send brigadier-general X to reduce the bulge" "it can't be fucking done, are you out of your mind ?!"
12:21 mircea_popescu on one hand people shouldn't be sent to do things that can't be done ; on the other hand somethings gotta can be done or else we're all sunk eventually.
12:21 asciilifeform rright. ideally you want to know what's possible before reaching the 'das war ein befehl!111111' stage
12:22 mircea_popescu rather.
12:22 asciilifeform some things i presently know how to do without vlsi. one of them was trng, and did.
12:22 asciilifeform if i knew how to do errything without vlsi, that can be done with, i'd be having tea with mircea_popescu in the palace on neighbouring hill, perhaps.
12:23 asciilifeform ( as it is, i spent good % of weekend in crapple store, and other % -- fixing fucking washing machine with own hands )
12:24 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> speaking of which, BingoBoingo you ARE making cozy with dc tech people rite ? taking them out to smoke & crimping them to pot or w/e it is they do socially there ? << Fairly friendly with them now that Rodrigo (Fellow who decided to be the point man in the February affair, ben_vulpes met) is gone.
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12:26 mircea_popescu cool.
12:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know i suspect one of the washing machines could do with fixing...
12:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it was lulzy, Official repair d00d threw up hands, 'can't source part'
12:27 asciilifeform i could tell 9000 stories like this, they all end same
12:27 asciilifeform asciilifeform goes and conujures up the 'unobtainium'
12:28 asciilifeform *conjures
12:28 mircea_popescu ah
12:28 mircea_popescu yeah, usg supply lines going to shit at a seemingly exponential rate
12:29 mircea_popescu "we have this website, can order anything" "you mean besides plastic cup holders ?" "WHO WOULD WANT THAT!!!"
12:29 mircea_popescu "you know... the soviets had a website like that."
12:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: current usg is quite eager to have konsoomer dispose of old, repairable [cars, washers, etc] in favour of chinesium
12:29 mircea_popescu certainly.
12:29 mircea_popescu and then when it starts blinking, konsoomer will be in the exact 1989 position.
12:29 mircea_popescu "i know... the way to win is to be as vulnerable as possible!"
12:30 mircea_popescu "let's do new orleans continent-wide, that worked so well for us!"
12:30 asciilifeform folx like asciilifeform , only have any pocket money left , because they're willing to lay out the grease rag and spend whole day+ inside gears, belts
12:30 asciilifeform alternative is 'oops, sucks to be you, you bought 2k machine , what do you mean you expect more than 6months out of it'
12:31 asciilifeform 'terrorist.'
12:31 asciilifeform 'here, buy a 3k one on installment, it'll last 9 months, we promise'
12:32 asciilifeform iirc ben_vulpes , trinque , have old autos, know exactly what this story is about.
12:33 * asciilifeform dreams of living in a thing where he could have pit, crane...
12:34 BingoBoingo * asciilifeform dreams of living in a thing where he could have pit, crane... << Paraguay!
12:35 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i thought para-- was mule country
12:36 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: It is mule and dump country. They take old Jap cars and flip the steering to the other side.
12:37 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: prolly a far cry from the master smiths of havana, who can fit toyota engine block into lada, with moskvich transmission
12:37 BingoBoingo Likely, they actually import used cars there (Rest of Mercosur only imports new)
12:38 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: orcistans starved for imports , sometimes have astonishing masters of junkyard wars
12:38 mircea_popescu i have a pile of old autos, they're a joy.
12:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: key element, your orcistan has not only old autos but master smiths.
12:39 mircea_popescu oh, i wouldn't trust the locals to smith inside it.
12:39 asciilifeform if only had old autos, would be spending time like ben_vulpes & asciilifeform .
12:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: who do you have doing it, then
12:39 mircea_popescu but take bartholomew, the early 2000s bmw. all it needs is maintenance.
12:40 asciilifeform and when needs new rack&pinion, who does it
12:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform will replace engine with other car's engine at some point.
12:40 mircea_popescu had transmission thusly replaced, for instance.
12:41 mircea_popescu but it's way the fuck better to maintain this car than to try and what, 20k for last year's kia ? noty.
12:41 asciilifeform it's how it's done, yes
12:41 asciilifeform and noshit.
12:41 mircea_popescu right.
12:41 mircea_popescu while supplies last.
12:41 asciilifeform the seekret is that supplies last, theoretically, for long time, there are folx repairing t34 and mig21 today.
12:42 asciilifeform but, costs.
12:42 asciilifeform ( recall the mig scrapyard in timis ? )
12:42 mircea_popescu certainly.
12:48 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847282 << somehow i missed this line on 1st pass through log. yes, that's exactly it.
12:48 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 14:44 mircea_popescu: but yes, evidently the (undiagnosed ; are these people morons ?!) problem is that "anything could be a firewall rule", ie, this is a place where the scripting turns upon the whole machine state. which makes me suspoect there's a more fundamental error at work somewhere (possibly the very attempt to build a pantsuit net, allcomers-based, possibly something else), but until we get a fix on that...
12:49 asciilifeform the allcomers-net is fundamentally bottomless hole.
12:49 mircea_popescu right.
12:49 mircea_popescu scripting fundamentally IS NOT THAT ; moving the steer will result in changes of direction, but will NOT result in changes of tapestry.
12:50 mircea_popescu an attempt to "make tapestry scriptable also" is the sure sign that women-in-general are now involved in that concern.
12:50 asciilifeform this kind of thing shows up whenever a broken basis is picked .
12:50 asciilifeform turns into infinite bubblegum plugs.
12:52 asciilifeform ( recall the dma thread, for instance. 9000+ hacks around the retardation of von neumann box. )
12:53 ave1 trinque, re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-03#1847167, yes turned out the git that cuntoo uses did not support https and my ufw settings did not allow an outgoing git port number. Now it fails it a bit further along with dependencies on gnupg-2.2, but I think this was a known breakage...
12:53 a111 Logged on 2018-09-03 22:37 trinque: ave1: couldn't reproduce your errors. all I had to do to re-run the cuntoo build was to fix the portage snapshot var.
12:53 asciilifeform ohai ave1
12:53 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/09/04/live-from-rockchip-with-mp-wp/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Live From RockChip! With MP-WP!
12:53 ave1 hi asciilifeform
12:53 trinque no, not known. the thing runs start to finish on my end.
12:53 asciilifeform ave1: didja ever get a arm32 gnat built ? turns out, 'uboot' needs one, to build
12:54 trinque ave1: however, when I grunt out this genesis vpatch, git dependency evaporates.
12:54 asciilifeform ( arm8 apparently includes a 32bit 'M0' coprocessor, 'for power manager' )
12:54 trinque layman (portage overlay manager) is pulling that in
12:54 ave1 trinque: I get the error when this line is run: sudo chroot . emerge eudev lilo genkernel gentoo-sources app-crypt/gnupg parted sudo
12:56 ave1 asciilifeform: I did not build an arm32 version yet (but should be easier that aarch64), it does have something with different abi that have to be named. I will check this week
12:57 asciilifeform ave1: afaik adacore already distributed a 32bit one, might want to look to see what it was made of
12:57 asciilifeform i'd like to never again use theirs, tho, but only ave1's builders
12:57 asciilifeform ( where ideally i can put in any arch supported by gcc backend, and get a that-flavoured gnat out )
12:58 ave1 yes, support should be there (one of the most irratating problems I had was with the config.guess scripts not includig a particular system)
12:58 asciilifeform i did not expect to ever again need a 32bit arm gcc, but there it is.
13:00 ave1 trinque: this is what I get on that emerge: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/MmnDr/?raw=true. P.S. l can wait for an updated version and try again, this is the first time since years that I tried gentoo again.
13:00 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo nice!
13:01 ave1 Also the first time that I tried to rebuild a kernel, first try needed 15G of harddisk space and created a 3G kernel (now down to 500mb, which compresses to about 12 or so, but still)
13:01 asciilifeform 3G kernel ?!!!
13:01 asciilifeform ( even microshit, has, what, 50MB one )
13:01 trinque ave1: I appreciate the testing, will put another version in your hands soon
13:04 ave1 Yes, this is when you base the kernel off the ubuntu config (with all modules enabled) and then try to include all modules in the kernel.
13:05 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty
13:06 asciilifeform congrats BingoBoingo !
13:07 BingoBoingo And thank you hanbot, the V Genesised MP-WP is very nice. Much improved dashboard and editors.
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13:08 asciilifeform ave1: what exactly depends on gpg2?!
13:09 trinque I just said, layman.
13:09 asciilifeform aaa
13:09 asciilifeform ok there i see it.
~ 45 minutes ~
13:55 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/09/serbia-considering-land-swap-with-breakaway-kosovo/ << Qntra - Serbia Considering Land Swap With Breakaway Kosovo
14:04 BingoBoingo lobbes: What sort of memory footprint is mysql leaving on your rockchip?
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14:05 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo how do you measure this ? top ?
14:06 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Yeah, I'm looking at top
14:07 mircea_popescu 84m res 2791m virt on the box running trilema.
14:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: pmap
14:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, whatever mechanism he wants.
14:09 asciilifeform http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000107.html << for reference, recipe for graphic process mem usages
14:09 asciilifeform produces things like http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150701/private_dirty_593063f24445b86ead7ed066cec803fa2cbec79b.png .
14:10 asciilifeform ( btw congrats to jurov & mod6 for bringing ml back to life ! )
14:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86316 << in ancientola.
14:14 a111 Logged on 2013-03-11 07:01 dub: there is thousands of retarded children with a handfull of hackers hiding behind them
14:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86304 << still unsolved enigma, afaik..
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14:18 a111 Logged on 2013-03-11 07:03 mircea_popescu: dub how do you explain most cocksuckers can't use bitcoin ?
14:18 mircea_popescu ikr.
14:24 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86221 << lol, prophecy
14:24 a111 Logged on 2013-03-11 07:17 mircea_popescu: actually the plan was to have tcp/ip reimpremented over pigeons
14:25 mircea_popescu lotta these!
14:25 asciilifeform lotsa good lulz from before asciilifeform tuned in. ( sometimes i go back an' read these, but most of it dun make sense except to expert archaeologist, which i am not )
14:26 mircea_popescu feel free to ask
14:27 asciilifeform who , for instance , was smickles. ( i formed impression that he was an active fella, but do not know with what )
14:27 asciilifeform ( seems to have been a trader ? )
14:29 mircea_popescu smickles was very active, bright and clear minded accountant guy.
14:29 mircea_popescu eventually wandered off into seculum.
14:29 asciilifeform there were a number of these, i think
14:30 mircea_popescu certainly.
14:30 asciilifeform ( cashed out megatonne of btc into saeculobux, melted brain ? )
14:30 mircea_popescu i don't expect he ever had megatonne tbh.
14:30 asciilifeform but perhaps had enuff to contract kuru.
14:31 mircea_popescu in five years one'd think "oh, the people from 2018, bought millions' worth of btc, are now rich". to the people of 2018, bitcoin seems, somehow, "expensive". which is necessary -- if it didn't, price'd rise.
14:31 mircea_popescu similarly for people of 2013, you realise ? "it was expensive"
14:31 asciilifeform way i see it, there was this degenerative disease, 'i am rich nao!111, will go and buy cocaine yacht and opium-retire on it' , number of sufferers in log history
14:32 asciilifeform ( i suspect they all ended up like esr, but naturally have no way to know )
14:32 mircea_popescu i still recall with amusement rassah's story about how he bought a bunch of coins without bf's permission out of their retirement fund, at 8!! and sold it all! at 13!!! RICH NAO FOREVER, because will pay off car.
14:32 mircea_popescu this made sense to people at the time.
14:33 asciilifeform fwiw it never made sense to asciilifeform
14:33 mircea_popescu paid off car!!1
14:33 asciilifeform why bother unraveling massive cpp hairball, for small change..
14:33 asciilifeform 'pay off car' lol
14:33 asciilifeform even 'pay off house' is crumbs, for the sort of work these people (as i understand) were doing
14:35 Mocky I cpu mined bitcoin when it was under 10. I made hundreds of dollars
14:35 asciilifeform then again, who am i to laugh, i burned '13 on hand-built fpga miner. made grand total of 0.6 coin.
14:35 mircea_popescu you utterly misunderstand. all these wankers did 0 work, precise to 6 decimals.
14:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i also '0 work' in the newtonian sense.
14:35 asciilifeform to as many decimal commas as one might ask.
14:35 asciilifeform at least, then.
14:35 mircea_popescu get out, rassah spent whole life writing social media crap. like that david gerard animated scarecrow thing.
14:36 mircea_popescu mpoe-pr without the mpoe, or hanbot.
14:36 asciilifeform !!reputation rassah
14:36 deedbot http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/a4CUU/?raw=true
14:36 asciilifeform ^ loox pretty dead
14:37 asciilifeform 'lost key'
14:37 mircea_popescu o look at that, "I helped run plenty of conferences. I do have an idea. The priority is to make sure you have a conference that runs well enough that people don't notice the problems, and that everyone who paid to attend it gets their money's worth. Who actually paid to make it happen is a bit lower on the priority."
14:38 mircea_popescu cazalla's comments meanwhile beleted, but lulzy reddit thread he links
14:38 mircea_popescu https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2r0twz/josh_garza_must_not_be_allowed_to_speak_at_the/cnbuxyx/ specifically
14:38 BingoBoingo Ah, the good olde days
14:39 mircea_popescu word!
14:39 mircea_popescu ("theymos" "rassah" 8 3572807706 "Holds BTC for the forum.") << aaahahaha epic luzl.
14:40 asciilifeform when asciilifeform ran into 'btc komyoonity', ended up quickly setting bozo bit on all 'investmentisms' en masse. ( even included mircea_popescu & co, was not able to distinguish from the rest until hanbot wrote to me and asked to try demo & read the mpoe materials )
14:41 mircea_popescu now imagine if, instead of that, i'd have had her write "hey, we're thinking of one day making #trilema" as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847437 0-cost-experiment logix.
14:41 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 15:32 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let's do a 0cost experiment, why dontcha float the idea to the dc people, see reaction.
14:41 asciilifeform lol
14:41 mircea_popescu well ?
14:41 mircea_popescu YOU PROPOSED IT
14:41 asciilifeform faraday's 'what use is baby' eh.
14:41 mircea_popescu i guess so.
14:42 mircea_popescu !#s captains of industry
14:42 a111 14 results for "captains of industry", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=captains%20of%20industry
14:43 asciilifeform mercaptans.
14:43 mircea_popescu ^ this was a thing. "bitcoin jesus" was a thing. all sorta lulz lie buried in the everlog.
14:44 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> mercaptans. << Ah, those sulphur smelling wenches with the cloaca and scales!
14:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: to my eye, it all looked like exactly identical pyramidism, 'nobody's manufacturing anyffing, not chips, not prime ribs, not even porn flicks, all numbers games with each other's belly lint'
14:47 asciilifeform sorta why asciilifeform was convinced that btc would sink
14:51 mircea_popescu the problem with manufactury is that often the evaluation of cultural artefacts produced is very difficult.
14:51 asciilifeform ( fwiw asciilifeform has today -- minus bbet -- all of the coin he had then, and if he had found the subj interesting from practical pov vs merely scientific, and bought with money, would likely have it still, asciilifeform is 100% immune to pretty much all of the diseases that cost the 'early adopters' their toys )
14:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is quite troo
14:54 asciilifeform but in so far as i was able to see, in those days, the only physical product was smalltime dope peddlage
14:55 asciilifeform ( and, i suppose, miners, which struck me as immediately pyramidal, 'if this were +ev, the vendor would keep'em, not sell' )
14:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is false, incidentally. amir taaki famously had his 16 yo sister camho for coins.
14:58 asciilifeform i believe.
14:58 asciilifeform but then, did not know.
14:59 mircea_popescu anyway, there was a lot of metals dealing for coin back in the day.
14:59 asciilifeform i did see these. but barfed mightily when reaching out tentacle and thinking of trying, and then found that they cancel orders arbitrarily when price moves
14:59 asciilifeform the odor of cynical scamola was overpowering to my nose.
15:03 mircea_popescu yes well.
15:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: does ro have that folk tale, where 'go left, lose your horse, go right, lose yer life,...' etc ?
↖
15:04 asciilifeform that's what whole shebang looked like to asciilifeform .
15:05 mircea_popescu yes well... for a while it quite was.
15:05 asciilifeform 'Налево пойдешь - коня потеряешь...'
15:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you will prolly laugh, but asciilifeform ~so~ despised the canaille , that could not bring himself to ~buy~ coin, that's why ended up fidding with handmade miners etc
15:15 asciilifeform and still despises.
15:15 asciilifeform *fiddling
15:15 mircea_popescu i confess it's a strange way to go about things.
15:15 asciilifeform a moar malodorous set of derps than the 'mainstream' 'btc komyoonity', prolly to this day does not exist.
15:16 mircea_popescu sure does. walk into any us conference of professionals
15:16 asciilifeform same people neh
15:16 mircea_popescu be it judges, politicians, realtors or the community of poets from wisconsin
15:16 mircea_popescu not exactly, a lot of foreign derps in bitcoin, esp early 2010s.
15:16 asciilifeform re judges, i suspect moar alzheimer's flavour, but do not specifically know, i dun have any in my wot
15:17 mircea_popescu most of these bums, from taaki to whoever else, are precisely not the us professional class, but the orc dreamer.
15:17 mircea_popescu tryna make it to florida.
15:17 asciilifeform that eternal eldorado, eh
15:18 mircea_popescu gotta tell mom you've made something of self
15:18 mircea_popescu cuz can't show her.
15:19 mircea_popescu the fundamental problem of http://trilema.com/2017/damele-dameleee/#selection-93.1-93.316 ain't easily gone away.
15:20 mircea_popescu pretend to make gods of men all ye will, the problems of gods then they'll assail.
15:20 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> that eternal eldorado, eh << Nah, Miami
15:23 asciilifeform let the gods strike me down, but, will confess, asciilifeform never yearned for miami.
15:24 asciilifeform nor has much patience for the 'yearners'.
15:24 mircea_popescu easy enough to do from washington dc.
15:24 mircea_popescu just as slimy, just as swampy.
15:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: think, for what do i need miami, i have all the mosquitoes here anyone could want
15:24 mircea_popescu exactl.y
15:24 asciilifeform i suppose missing is python, alligator.
15:24 mircea_popescu and all the old jews and so on.
15:24 asciilifeform those -- we have
15:24 mircea_popescu i meant, "already have"
15:24 asciilifeform ( they dun all fit in nyc and miami )
15:24 asciilifeform aaha
15:25 mircea_popescu in other news, /me is working on a monstrous, 70k+ words as it stands nao, work of adnotation.
15:25 mircea_popescu with any luck, tomorrow.
15:25 asciilifeform neato
15:34 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847747 -> hm, I remember more the version with "if you take it, you'll be sorry, if you don't take it, you'll be sorry; so better take it"
15:34 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 19:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does ro have that folk tale, where 'go left, lose your horse, go right, lose yer life,...' etc ?
15:34 asciilifeform diana_coman: take which. on my home planet the story had a 3way fork.
15:35 mircea_popescu diana_coman it's there, harap alb, etc.
15:35 asciilifeform (trilema, if you will..)
15:35 mircea_popescu abundantly ethnological.
15:35 diana_coman asciilifeform, ah, the 3 road forks was "on this road you'll never come back"
15:35 asciilifeform ~that~ was a given
15:35 diana_coman the take was take a feather or whatever it was
15:36 diana_coman mircea_popescu, I don't recall any explicit fork in harap alb? or what, after he gets into the well, the "choice"?
15:39 mircea_popescu hmm, i'm goping through creanga's cannonical and i don't see it ; but i quite literally recall this "take the left, lose your life ; take the right, lose your quest ; go straight ahead and lose both"
15:40 hanbot http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847657 << glad it's working well. looks good from here!
15:40 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 17:07 BingoBoingo: And thank you hanbot, the V Genesised MP-WP is very nice. Much improved dashboard and editors.
15:41 asciilifeform https://archive.is/EcCV7 << collection of illustrations , re subj
15:44 hanbot http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847674 << always was and still is fear. everyone i talk to, from parent to phlebotomist to self-imagined "people in crypto" says the same shit: they don't know how, and learning looks too vast, and nobody will issue them certificate of Everything's-Okay.
15:44 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 18:18 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-11#-86304 << still unsolved enigma, afaik..
15:47 mircea_popescu and god only had a few million souls at the peak available and the women kept pouring out children, and well...
15:47 mircea_popescu ~everyone's supernumerary.
15:53 asciilifeform http://www.forex.ua/blog-images/%D0%92%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8C_cr.jpg << variant.
15:56 asciilifeform hanbot: fear dun explain it, imho, derps will 'invest' in unbelievably outlandish nonsense happily w/out fear
15:59 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: The people peddling the outlandish nonsense go out of their way to relieve fear. It's what the swindlers do
16:00 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: 'millenials' are generally subhuman ; ( as per mircea_popescu's 'souls' portrait ); older folx, on other hand, have deep scars of 'who am i to think that i can own anything, the takers always find a way to take it'
16:01 BingoBoingo Sure they don't have souls, but they got some rusty python scripts to follow
16:02 mircea_popescu there is that ; but more common with older folks seems a deep and fundamental ineptitude with the programmable machines
16:02 asciilifeform ( speaking here of the saner older folx; there's no shortage of idjits who think they 'own' usg house etc )
16:02 mircea_popescu watch them at work, the impression becomes inescapable you're trying to teach lizzards writing
16:02 mircea_popescu "but your right honorable greatness! WE HAVE NO OPPOSABLE THUMBS!"
16:04 mircea_popescu the "internet=blue ie/facebook icon" exact diametrical of http://trilema.com/2018/wood-impregnated-in-oil-a-metaphor/#comment-126055 is not even the whole story.
16:06 mircea_popescu to put the matter into proper formalization : the old world, of mechanical contraptions that could be physically debugged, was relatively simple and moreover in certain senses and on some dimensions very strictly constrained. consequently it was possible to build exam-taking rulebooks that allowed a large population of morons to build up, and "work", passibly well, as church wardens, ship righters, what have you.
16:07 mircea_popescu but the more abstract world of representation (aptly described not by the computer, but by the trilema-style referencing, which is more fundamental a computer than the computer itself for the needs of this conversation) suddenly exploded all that. like when you lift a rug, suddenly all sorts of scum was exposed that before passed.
16:08 mircea_popescu "you are not smart enough to be here" certaily means something at all points of human existence, from the eleusine days forward, and before. but WHAT it exactly means depends strictly on how sharp and how effectual tools there are available ti distinguish sense from idiocy.
16:08 asciilifeform this is mircea_popescu's earlier 'end of industrial rev' thesis, aha
16:09 mircea_popescu yes, but in a different aspect ; that concerned principally the happenstance that labour is no longer a thing, much like phlogiston is no longer a thing.
16:09 mircea_popescu this has no bearing on the expectations of people to feed themselves through work of their hands ; but it speaks rather on the expectation of people that they can make friends.
16:09 mircea_popescu as a factual matter, i could (and did) pick up women i'd share a bed with on the street, some short two decades ago. even less.
16:10 mircea_popescu today i have to go through millions of "profiles", and the results are overall less satisfactory.
16:10 mircea_popescu what's changed ?
16:11 asciilifeform well 20y ago they were 'grass-fed' chix, today -- 'feedlot' millenials
16:11 mircea_popescu it never occured to me to inquire whether, or that i'd care if, 1998 girly wrote anything. who the fuck cares, "sense enough to not get run over" was plenty, then.
16:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i fear that may be just so much wishful thinking.
16:11 asciilifeform what's the alt-hypothesis then
16:11 mircea_popescu literally this, things are important now that literally did not exist a decade, or a century, or ten thousand centuries ago.
16:12 asciilifeform exactly same item as when writing was discovered
16:12 mircea_popescu dante wisely never asked beatrice if she could read the latin verse. nor did he care
16:12 mircea_popescu which is why renaissance did not start with dante ; it included him, but in effigy.
16:12 asciilifeform possibly because could not afford to care
16:13 mircea_popescu possibly because did not care, to begin with.
16:13 mircea_popescu and for same reason he didn't care -- he also didn't start the renaissance.
16:13 BingoBoingo !Q later tell trinque Secular Texas related question I recieved for your laffs http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EnsvM/?raw=true
16:13 lobbesbot BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
16:13 asciilifeform today mircea_popescu pumps 100,000 litres of ocean water and finds 1-2 chix that can pgp. but what if had to pump 10,000,000 litres, and got 1 chix, and she looked like emmy noether, what then.
16:14 mircea_popescu ~same. what do i care.
16:14 mircea_popescu besides, one's in a much better position to find comnena in 1200s than 1400s. by the 1400s, nobody in italy could read greek, you realise this ?
16:15 mircea_popescu special greek teacher had to be imported, and was the only and first one in century+
16:19 mircea_popescu (coluccio salutati, by any accounts the man that made it work, a http://trilema.com/2014/fred-quimby-and-ancient-evils/ character brought manuel chrysoloras to florence, and thereby aristotle could be read for the first time in greek, rather than in arabic)
16:22 mircea_popescu (and since we're doing notes : anna porphyrogenita has an ancient name, which approximately meant the same as "comely". Ἄννα Κομνηνή, anna the comely. looks nothing like noether!)
~ 38 minutes ~
17:00 asciilifeform porphyrogenita << i still find the 'snailcoin' interesting
17:03 mircea_popescu which one is this ?
17:03 asciilifeform 6,6-dibromoindigo
17:07 asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/lxAGF/?raw=true << likbez for n00bz, de-pdfized.
17:07 mircea_popescu you want to stink like a fishwife ?
17:07 asciilifeform i dun think the finished product had a smell
17:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lulzily, modern chemists found that it... semiconducts
17:09 deedbot http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/04/pura-vida-like-no-other/ << Ossasepia - Pura Vida Like No Other
17:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform smelled such that it was specifically a cause of divorce among the jews
17:09 mircea_popescu "man took up dyeing":
17:10 asciilifeform i recall
17:10 asciilifeform but not product, but the manufacture process
17:10 asciilifeform ( where you had to ferment the snails )
17:10 mircea_popescu the colored clothes themselves.
17:10 asciilifeform even after sun dry ? caesar went around outgassing ?
17:11 mircea_popescu aha.
17:11 mircea_popescu "stench as lasting as the color" says the ancient source.
17:11 asciilifeform interesting
17:12 asciilifeform this 'feature' appears to be missing from the synthetic variant..
17:12 mircea_popescu semiconducted out ?
17:12 asciilifeform lol
17:12 mircea_popescu anyway, afaik wasn't really industrialized ever
17:14 asciilifeform not in orig variant afaik.
17:14 asciilifeform ( possibly for this reason ? )
17:15 mircea_popescu expensive, in any case.
17:16 asciilifeform made with orig method, was most expensive manufactured substance known at the time, afaik
17:16 mircea_popescu after the western world brought the benefits of democracy to the byzantines, the latter also stopped using it.
17:16 asciilifeform afaik byzantine never once could afford to make even 1 purple robe with snail.
17:16 asciilifeform it went away with the eastern rome.
17:16 asciilifeform err, western
17:18 mircea_popescu nah, they kept doing it for centuries after.
17:18 mircea_popescu finally stopped cca 11th century.
17:18 asciilifeform i thought they had switched to ersatz , with fall of rome ( vermillion ? )
17:18 mircea_popescu byzantium was both richer and larger than rome throughout the entire xtian period
17:18 mircea_popescu the french used the beetle.
17:18 asciilifeform ah
17:20 asciilifeform diana_coman: holy fuq, who the fuck chains up a crocodile. why not humanely put a 12ga to its head, omfg
17:20 diana_coman asciilifeform, myeah, what can I say
17:20 asciilifeform diana_coman, mircea_popescu : do folx still make croc leather ?
17:21 diana_coman the "kind" people who "won't kill" I guess; I really don't have any other explanation for that shit
17:21 mircea_popescu they came up with a buncha pantsuitisms here ; no smoking in public, no genuine leather... can't even keep a chipmunk pet. not legally at any rate.
17:21 asciilifeform srsly? this is even moar oddball than usa
17:21 diana_coman o.O what, I broke the law by wearing leather shoes and sandals??
17:22 mircea_popescu diana_coman well, you didn't ~make them~.
17:22 diana_coman asciilifeform, they have laws and rules but basically they don't really apply them , at least not in the manner you think of "apply"
17:22 asciilifeform aah orcistan
17:24 diana_coman child had a small ball and apparently there was a rule that no balls allowed in park; so before we even got to the gate, one guard was trying to convince me to hide the ball in a jacket (I had no idea wtf for, it made sense only on hindsight); at the "control" I simply said that ball stays in backpack so it's not a problem and they ..were fine with that
17:24 mircea_popescu if they were rid of the moronic usgistani monkeys on their back, they'd be truly happy people.
17:25 asciilifeform it was usg that forbade rubber ball ?
17:25 asciilifeform or speaking moar generally of the infectious prion.
17:25 mircea_popescu the latter.
17:25 * asciilifeform can picture it
17:25 mircea_popescu they don't naturally conceive usa is filth.
17:26 mircea_popescu imagine the reasoning of little girl, "mommy, mommy, isn't my skirt much better now, i put some mud on it"
17:26 asciilifeform i'd've naively imagined they have enuff contact with usg escapees, to know what it is
17:26 mircea_popescu notrly.
17:26 diana_coman asciilifeform, their contact is "tourists are american and give us lots of money" from what I can tell
17:26 mircea_popescu most tourists are really pan-german
17:27 mircea_popescu dutch, german, etc.
17:27 asciilifeform americans , as whole, dun tourist so much, they get, what, 1wk of time off / yr
17:27 asciilifeform and they spend it with the bottle, in milwaukee, with 'fambly'
17:27 diana_coman I did hear a lot of dutch and german too,that is true; but all the dollar-prices and loads of English spoken and the baked in assumption - American, I don't know
17:28 asciilifeform diana_coman: dunno whether you knew, but in usa there is ~substantial~ population of folx who... haven't a passport.
17:28 asciilifeform like hruschev's 1960s, kolhoz.
17:28 asciilifeform i aint speaking of the mexicans, either
17:29 asciilifeform ( literally, they can't be arsed to pay the 100bux + the photographer's 10. because they can't picture 'where to go, why' )
17:30 diana_coman it's unclear to me only if the similarity goes that far since at least in RO people *wanted* passport or afaik many americans don't see /conceive/think of the need for passport, so possible one up
17:30 diana_coman aha
17:30 asciilifeform they are quite similar, imho. usa has moar 'advanced' republikflucht-prevention than ye olde su, is all
17:31 diana_coman come to think of it, maybe americans were simply so loud and rather obnoxious that they were more visible, huh; doing some counting here I remember there was even a rather large group of ...italians, lol
17:31 diana_coman so mircea_popescu is probably right re numbers
~ 49 minutes ~
18:21 BingoBoingo <diana_coman> I did hear a lot of dutch and german too,that is true; but all the dollar-prices and loads of English spoken and the baked in assumption - American, I don't know << Lots of Germans passed through the hostel (less than Latinos/Brasileros) they speak English because their hollywood ended in 1940s
~ 2 hours ~
20:21 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-04#1847663 << I just ran top for a bit. Looks like the most mysql ever takes is ~6.6% of memory. fwiw I'm just using httpd (not sure if this would be a factor in mysql memory usage, but only difference I can think of between our LAMPs)
20:21 a111 Logged on 2018-09-04 18:04 BingoBoingo: lobbes: What sort of memory footprint is mysql leaving on your rockchip?
20:23 lobbes also, congrats on joining teh mp-wp-rk club
~ 25 minutes ~
20:48 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=9 << Bimbo.Club - So what does happen when you drop everything and dedicate your life to serving...
↖
~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
21:56 mircea_popescu "Jake Joseph Paul is an American actor and YouTube personality who rose to significant fame on the now-defunct video application Vine. "
21:57 mircea_popescu tha fuck does this even mean ? how can it possibly be significant if defunct ?!
21:57 mircea_popescu even the momentarily-still-alive ones are very arguably significant at all.
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
23:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-05#1847915 >> 'I was in a position in which I enforced company policy, hired, and fired as human resources and now no longer have an office with my name on the wall or any authority; however, I do have a 'cage', collar, and a really cute headband...' >> lol win, oblig >> 'Yea, a trooper of the forces who has run his own six horses!' (tm)(r)(kipling)
↖
23:19 a111 Logged on 2018-09-05 00:48 deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=9 << Bimbo.Club - So what does happen when you drop everything and dedicate your life to serving...
23:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well ?
23:20 asciilifeform well neat, afaik this is the 1st talking seal with blog, at least as the l0gz go
23:21 asciilifeform pet: 'this reads like a alt.sex.stories post'
23:25 mircea_popescu i am most curious in how time shall grind it.
23:26 mircea_popescu but yes, she's not read nearly enough to be capable of penmanship in anything but the common low style. yet.
23:26 asciilifeform this was the accountant chix , iirc ?
23:27 asciilifeform i take it they dun waste their time with book-larnin' no moar..
23:30 mircea_popescu if they do, it's not apparent.
23:36 Mocky ok, word is: no family in the region
23:36 mircea_popescu lucky you.
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