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search trilema search all chans

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00:03		Bet placed: 7.22 BTC for Yes on "Dolar Blue over 20 Argentine Pesos on or before Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8th)" http://bitbet.us/bet/1044/ Odds: 60(Y):40(N) by coin, 58(Y):42(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.43237601 BTC. Current weight: 92,710.
		~ 24 minutes ~
00:28	decimation	asciilifeform: I ended up buying http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symmetricom-BC635PCI-V2-OCXO-BC635PCIE-V2-Time-Freq-Processor-/141401396428
00:28	assbot	Symmetricom BC635PCI V2 OCXO BC635PCIE V2 Time Freq Processor | eBay
00:28	decimation	came new in box, sealed package. this version has a built-in DDS, probably cost well over $2000 new a few years ago
		~ 28 minutes ~
00:57	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 19885 @ 0.00003524 = 0.7007 BTC [-] {4}
01:00	decimation	heh more old news: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-05/microsoft-ceo-nadella-inherits-legacy-of-ballmer-board-division#p1 << "Nadella appointed onetime Democratic political operative Mark Penn to the just-invented post of strategy chief and shuffled other executives to resolve an unwieldy setup Ballmer had established in the marketing department." << USG ministry of computing
01:00	assbot	Microsofts Nadella Manages Legacy of Ballmer-Board Split - Businessweek
01:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.000035 = 0.7 BTC [-] {3}
01:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16552 @ 0.00074975 = 12.4099 BTC [+] {2}
01:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7248 @ 0.0007508 = 5.4418 BTC [+]
		~ 31 minutes ~
01:44	asciilifeform	currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together)
01:45	asciilifeform	to continue the heart/liver analogy, the currency is like the many (most) organs which can operate on fermentation, and outlive what one normally thinks of as 'death' by hours or even days.
01:46	asciilifeform	in such scenario, usd minted - no; circulated - yes.
01:46	asciilifeform	(in the lack of immediate alternative.)
01:48	asciilifeform	(this gedankenexperiment, if not obvious, concerns usd kept around as physical coinage, rather than spreadshit figures.)
01:50	asciilifeform	obligatory:
01:50	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-02-2014#499414
01:50	assbot	Logged on 13-02-2014 01:28:18; asciilifeform: "You should hold on to some cash, for purely didactic purposes. I remember my great-grandmother, who passed away when I was seven, and I remember playing with her little hoard of kerenki - ruble notes in ridiculously high yet worthless denominations that had been issued by the Russian Provisional Government, under the leadership of Prime Minister Alexander Kerensky... ... I was quite taken with the te
		~ 33 minutes ~
02:24	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15817 @ 0.00074921 = 11.8503 BTC [-]
		~ 16 minutes ~
02:40	punkman1	> ghey: how can I buy 30 million dollars in bitcoin? a casino operator is intrested in bitcoin payouts and needs to secure bitcoin.
02:44	xmj	hahaha
02:44	TheNewDeal	ill front it
02:45	TheNewDeal	I kid, I kid
02:46	punkman1	lots of retarded advice in otc for him
02:46	TheNewDeal	sell your body for btc!!
02:49	TheNewDeal	moriarty spam. sigh
02:54	punkman1	mmm pomegranate juice
02:55	punkman1	good stuff
02:56	TheNewDeal	;;market buy 5000
02:56	gribble	Bitstamp | A market order to buy 5000 bitcoins right now would take 2263217.8941 USD and would take the last price up to 479.9700 USD, resulting in an average price of 452.6436 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0305 seconds
02:57	punkman1	;;market buy 25000
02:57	gribble	Bitstamp | This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would buy 23659.909 bitcoins, for a total of 21442613.6279 USD and take the price to 99999.9900. | Data vintage: 31.3611 seconds
02:58	TheNewDeal	good luck getting a hold of that 30 million in coin
03:00	punkman1	TheNewDeal: why? not that much money really
03:01	punkman1	buy some in a dark pool or private deal, pour some money in the exchanges, watch your money grow
03:01	TheNewDeal	bitstamps orderbook contains 24000 coins
		~ 22 minutes ~
03:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 134 @ 0.00540999 = 0.7249 BTC [-]
		~ 28 minutes ~
03:52	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: decimation: easy riddle. 'fritz chip' was finished, shipped, now ubiquitous. no more need for group. << Not chip, but Fritz has a lot of history
03:55	BingoBoingo	Allegedly... Ken Dannager still mines coal
03:57	BingoBoingo	02:12:51 asciilifeform: buy while its cheap << go try and buy.
03:57	BingoBoingo	<< WHo watches the watchers?
03:58	punkman1	hey bb, capture averted?
03:59	BingoBoingo	punkman1: Unknown, was in the belly of the beast
03:59	BingoBoingo	02:20:16 asciilifeform: next year, after binge of dope in cia operative station: 'trial of cocaine baron takes bizarre turn after evidence - bag from his toilet tank - turns out to contain treatise on suicide methods. kilo of cocaine found in pocket of shitcoin ceo who jumped from tower.'
03:59	BingoBoingo	^When will people realize I am on strike?
04:01	BingoBoingo	It is not minimal, but maximal responsiblility that sets the work I will take.
04:03	BingoBoingo	I will admit missing the person who admits to allegedly being an enemy of mine while I hugged his greatest oppontent.
04:05	BingoBoingo	When it comes to the matter of wether I will ever plead to anything... Watch the actor playing Rearden in Atlas Shrugged part 2. Or play a game of chess with me.
04:06	BingoBoingo	The game of chess may be cleaner while offering the same point.
04:07	BingoBoingo	You will have to bring guns if you want to seize my ass.
04:09	BingoBoingo	Also Atlas Shrugged Part II might be the best adaption to film evar
04:10	BingoBoingo	Also I hugged a State Senator today.
04:12	BingoBoingo	punkman1: I could also still totally be captured before Monday still.
04:16	punkman1	BingoBoingo: oh they don't take weekends off?
04:16	BingoBoingo	punkman1: Not sure, hugged a state senator though
04:17	punkman1	BingoBoingo: and he's against capture I take it?
04:18	BingoBoingo	punkman1: That one is ignorant of the question at all, to make this shit more ridiculous
04:19	BingoBoingo	Still, I've got 3 sharp pikes if this goes to trial
04:19	punkman1	all that waiting, it'd kill me
04:20	BingoBoingo	Still, my firends shout out to @Bboingo on twitter, MP has my powerword somewhere on trilema
04:20	BingoBoingo	And I could give few fucks
04:20	BingoBoingo	Because I am a Man
04:21	BingoBoingo	If I am captured god Help the bubba assigned t break my spirit
04:22	BingoBoingo	Because I read MP, I know how to break a starfish
04:23	BingoBoingo	THe only option in my alleged disorderly conduct matter is they drop the charge
04:24	BingoBoingo	The cost to the leaches is much more than that to me, to an extent they won' know until they fuck themselvves
04:25	BingoBoingo	Directive10-289
04:28	BingoBoingo	Neither slave nor slave driver
04:28	BingoBoingo	I abide
04:29	punkman1	disorderly conduct, wouldn't that just require a donation? or do they take kickbacks from the local prison baron?
04:30	BingoBoingo	punkman1: It can be up to either money I don't have or a month of my time they WILL regret
04:31	BingoBoingo	!up Vexual
04:36	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 117 @ 0.01031722 = 1.2071 BTC [-] {8}
04:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 165 @ 0.01000772 = 1.6513 BTC [-] {8}
04:37	BingoBoingo	To Pull! When you've got it... You're a retard...
		~ 22 minutes ~
05:00	BingoBoingo	!pull
05:03	cazalla	why not cave BingoBoingo?
05:04	BingoBoingo	cazalla: Cave on what?
05:04	BingoBoingo	Hypocrites or idiots?
05:06	cazalla	not that i really understand what is going on but sounds dragged out
05:07	BingoBoingo	I am Aaron Man Running through the forest through the ku klux klan
05:09	BingoBoingo	And seriously, to what can I cave?
05:09	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6933 @ 0.00074921 = 5.1943 BTC [-]
05:10	cazalla	consider it a stupid question
05:10	BingoBoingo	Can I cave to less prison? No, The false Islamic State government must concede to amnesty.
05:11	BingoBoingo	Allegedgly the person who started the beef professed to be libertarian
05:12	BingoBoingo	But he can't be that and an officer in this county
05:13	BingoBoingo	Pretenders are going to pretend
05:14	Duffer1	wait your beef was with a cop?
05:15	BingoBoingo	Duffer1: No, an elected officer of the county, allegedly
05:15	Duffer1	ah
05:15	BingoBoingo	A cop would have been simpler
05:15	Duffer1	indeed, you'd be in jail :P
05:16	BingoBoingo	I am too white for that
05:17	BingoBoingo	Because 'Murica is racist
05:17	Duffer1	i dunno every cop i've ever met was an equal opportunity asshole
05:17	BingoBoingo	But still stupid, yes?
05:19	Duffer1	mostly
05:20	Duffer1	though it's hard to tell if it's that or the steroids
05:21	BingoBoingo	I don't steroid John Galt
05:21	Duffer1	i am uncertain what that means
05:21	BingoBoingo	Or Ray Rice
05:22	BingoBoingo	Or Adrian Peterson.'
05:27	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMLnDuzgkjo
05:32	Vexual	ive met all sorts
05:32	BingoBoingo	cazalla I will cover stupid and cave when it covers the stupid that hurt me so more in the past
05:32	BingoBoingo	Which ought be never
05:35	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLcs4VrjZQ
05:38	Vexual	yarr
05:42	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRxwMyOZX8
05:52	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5HfOipwvts
05:54	Vexual	borked
05:55	Vexual	decimation, whats the clock for?
05:56	cazalla	bingoBoingo, sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose.
05:57	Vexual	cazalle, it souds like youve met a magistrate before
05:57	cazalla	Vexual, a few times :P
05:58	Vexual	all you can do is say your piece
06:00	Vexual	but you better fucking make it count, coz it's recorded forever
06:03	cazalla	wasn't much i could say
06:03	cazalla	won't happen again, i'm contrite, gods honour
06:03	Vexual	theres always something you can say
06:03	cazalla	not when ya waiting for a mate
06:03	Vexual	even if its: yes im a total arseshole criminal
06:03	Vexual	well them: im waiting for a mate
06:04	Vexual	or: i don't know cazalla kills his rabbits
06:05	Vexual	*how
06:05	cazalla	ISIS mode
06:05	Vexual	*if
06:05	Vexual	*when
06:05	cazalla	you wanna know something funny Vexual
06:06	Vexual	yes
06:06	cazalla	nz doe had a litter other day right
06:06	Vexual	yes i do
06:06	cazalla	13 kits
06:06	Vexual	kawaii
06:06	cazalla	now this rabbit has had about 60-70 kits in total, always white, just like nz, the guy i bought em off said they were pure
06:06	cazalla	low and behold, there is a nigger rabbit amongst this litter, black as the ace of spades
06:06	Vexual	red eyed?
06:07	Vexual	oh mumma
06:07	cazalla	still closed atm but red eye would be cool, would be demon like
06:07	cazalla	i'll show ya, one sec
06:07	Vexual	1/70?
06:07	Vexual	wheres my genteics textbook
06:10	Duffer1	60-70 total? o.0 what for you need all that rabbit?
06:11	cazalla	Vexual http://imgur.com/TpkwllJ
06:11	assbot	imgur: the simple image sharer
06:12	cazalla	anyway, maybe it's due to the buck or the doe, nfi, i'll keep it and breed it back with either parent and see what's what
06:12	Vexual	red eye black, you're minted
06:13	cazalla	Duffer1, that's over 18-24 months
06:13	Duffer1	that's still a lot of rabbit
06:13	Duffer1	snake food?
06:14	Vexual	no, red eye black is good juju
06:14	cazalla	no no, my food
06:14	cazalla	this lucky lil' niglet will be spared the pot though
06:14	Duffer1	i see
06:14	Vexual	must breed
06:15	cazalla	i will, i'll keep ya updated, would be easier if it's a female, don't need another buck
06:16	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTvzzgk_jEY
06:17	Vexual	a good genetecist would put that buck on his aunties
06:17	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20300 @ 0.00074858 = 15.1962 BTC [-] {2}
06:18	Vexual	or something
06:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.147 = 0.882 BTC [+]
06:22	cazalla	i doubt the guy i bought em off fully knew their background anyway, there is always people flogging pure bred crap on gumtree that clearly is not
06:22	Vexual	little bit sicillian
06:22	Vexual	you might wanna eat it before the cute little fucker shakes you down
06:26	Vexual	how do you dispatch with them when thet are destined for dinner?
06:26	Vexual	isis stylee?
06:26	cazalla	break the neck, slit the throat
06:26	cazalla	it's over for them in seconds
06:26	Vexual	or a strong spring with some tool steel?
06:27	Vexual	nufff sais
06:27	Vexual	*nuff said
06:27	cazalla	first one i ever did, i fucked it up, adrenaline pumping and all that
06:32	punkman1	how long it take you to skin one?
06:32	cazalla	4-5 minutes if that
06:32	Vexual	and what do you do with the skins?
06:32	cazalla	compost em
06:32	punkman1	no fur for the wife?
06:34	cazalla	it's a waste eh, been meaning to learn how to tan but yet to get around to it
06:34	cazalla	rabbit onesie would be pretty sweet for winter
06:34	Vexual	ive got an easy vex method
06:34	cazalla	doubles as snow camo
06:34	Vexual	3 skin underwaer
06:34	cazalla	first one i did, i sat with it for about 15 minutes, patting it (big mistake), talking to it (big mistake)
06:34	Vexual	this is where wllld rabbit is an advantage
06:34	cazalla	so i kill it except i don't break it's neck right and it's jumping around with it's head bent to the side, squeeling like fuck
06:34	cazalla	and then i cut myself half a dozen times butchering it as the adrenaline still had me shaky
06:34	cazalla	funny, never had that issue with fish
06:34	Vexual	where are rabbits even from?
06:34	cazalla	Vexual, wild would be nice, i wouldn't mind going hunting but never looked into what it takes to get a gun licence here
06:34	Vexual	france?
06:34	cazalla	i dunno, i think the brits brought em here
06:34	Vexual	i dont think it would be right to shoot them in the hutch
06:34	cazalla	eh? i mean on shooting safari
06:34	Vexual	yea
06:35	Vexual	u ne'r had wild rabbit?
06:35	cazalla	nope
06:37	Vexual	i don't think ive ever eaten pet
06:38	cazalla	harsh
06:41	Vexual	well not pet rabbit
06:42	Vexual	id brain em with a spike if i did
06:42	Vexual	i do like a fat rabbit
06:42	cazalla	you can make a rabbit wringer
06:43	Vexual	id have to brain them
06:44	Vexual	or free range lead ending
06:45	Vexual	theyve got a thick neck on em
06:46	cazalla	not really, kinda where rabbit punch comes from
06:46	Vexual	youll have to show me one time
06:47	Vexual	i can do a chicken
06:49	cazalla	yeah sure, maybe i'll open my home as a restaurant where not only do you have to cook your own food like some places, you kill it too
06:49	cazalla	chicken and feathers seems a pita
06:52	Vexual	yeah
06:52	Duffer1	and loud
06:53	Duffer1	fresh eggs are pretty great though
06:53	Vexual	indeed
06:53	Vexual	best hangover cure
06:53	cazalla	ya fox got mine last year, getting some pullets soon though
06:53	Duffer1	sounds nice
06:54	Vexual	aren;t you moving cazalla?
06:54	cazalla	not for ages
06:56	Vexual	desmo diss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjqmsBikpw (asciilifeform)
06:58	Vexual	or some such
07:01	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovhw-E9gRfU
		~ 18 minutes ~
07:19	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJuXKeiM4_0
07:21	Vexual	;;seen mircea_popescue
07:21	gribble	I have not seen mircea_popescue.
07:25	Vexual	fuck you gribble
		~ 16 minutes ~
07:42	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKli0y-Xr-Q
07:48	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXWvKDSwvls
07:59	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD0UfJZ6KhM
08:13	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCkIYkaLBGs
08:17	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk
08:18	Vexual	such pif
08:18	Vexual	;;seen pankake
08:18	gribble	I have not seen pankake.
08:21	Vexual	fuck your wnakholw then
08:24	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk
08:28	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJJV1nruUUA
08:32	mod6	%tslb
08:32	atcbot	Time Since Last ATC Block (#45395): 1 hour(s), 23 minutes
08:32	mod6	%tslb_btc
08:32	atcbot	Time Since Last BTC Block (#321676): 0 hour(s), 1 minutes
08:33	Vexual	stats
08:34	Vexual	;;calc 321676-45395 (sounds so ckockney)
08:34	gribble	Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
08:35	Vexual	are we gonna have a prolem gribble?
08:40	Vexual	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhJ9c-pFoI
		~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
10:15	kakobrekla	omg the people. http://shrani.si/f/21/py/4dZQY5ID/manupulate.png
10:16	kakobrekla	bah, should be manulpulate.
10:19	kakobrekla	o wait
10:19	kakobrekla	it gets better
10:22	kakobrekla	http://shrani.si/f/d/c/4JIpOJly/manulpulate.png
10:22	kakobrekla	!s bitsurant
10:22	assbot	0 results for 'bitsurant' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitsurant
10:22	kakobrekla	there is nao!
10:23	fluffypony	such scam
10:23	kakobrekla	http://www.bitsurant.com
10:23	assbot	BITSURANT Bitcoin Insurance
10:23	kakobrekla	lol!
10:23	Duffer1	i'm at a loss
10:23	Duffer1	1 that this exists
10:23	Duffer1	2 that someone signed up for it
10:24	Duffer1	wtf
10:25	bounce	you could be running an insurance company in cowrie shells, so why not one in bitcoins?
10:26	fluffypony	because cowrie shells aren't a scam
10:27	*	kakobrekla tempted to give them a gox response
10:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 54 @ 0.01060212 = 0.5725 BTC [+] {2}
10:28	*	bounce puts one and one together and starts cowriecoin. instant legit.
10:35	kakobrekla	http://shrani.si/f/h/Mx/2WIrp7WX/pictures.png
10:37	kakobrekla	in the spirit of user friendliness
10:42	punkman	http://i.imgur.com/35QZx6M.png
10:44	punkman	"do not trade like a cow"
10:45	punkman	http://i.imgur.com/YiselaQ.png
10:48	xmj	you know
10:48	xmj	that's the thing a futures exchange would say.
10:48	xmj	because it makes you lose money and they make a profit off that.
		~ 16 minutes ~
11:05	kakobrekla	<punkman> http://i.imgur.com/35QZx6M.png < trade like chicken?
11:05	kakobrekla	eh the other link
11:05	kakobrekla	s/link/line
11:07	mircea_popescu	meh apparently #b4056df6691f8dc72e56302ddad345d65fead3ead9299609a826e2344eb63aa4 can't be a channel name.
11:11	mircea_popescu	!up moriarty
11:11	*	moriarty burps
11:11	mircea_popescu	lol
11:11	mircea_popescu	so apparently reddit libertarians have a freenode channel. ##austrians
11:12	moriarty	lol pseudo-libertarians more like
11:12	moriarty	i was grossly disappointed to say the least
11:12	moriarty	they're mostly minarchists
11:12	mircea_popescu	o ?
11:12	mircea_popescu	;;google minarchist
11:12	gribble	Minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism>; Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism_and_minarchism>; The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: <http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=340>
11:12	mircea_popescu	;;google minarchist -wikipedia
11:12	gribble	The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: <http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=340>; minarchist on Tumblr: <http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/minarchist>; Difference Between Minarchist and Anarchist? - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P-Ez5rMRxM>
11:13	moriarty	well, half of them are minarchists, the other half are anarcho-capitalists
11:13	moriarty	so you could almost say they are the teaparty equivalents of libertarians
11:13	mircea_popescu	haha.
11:13	mircea_popescu	fwiw, i believe "free market" education to be plainly idiotic.
11:14	mircea_popescu	there's one language, it's purely conventional, this makes education purely arbitrary to begin with.
11:14	moriarty	what's your take on free market?
11:14	mircea_popescu	well i implement it wherever i can. seen the economy and sociology articles ?
11:15	moriarty	you believe educational flavour will change with linguistic medium?
11:15	moriarty	unfortunately not, link me?
11:15	mircea_popescu	well yes you know ? suppose zig ziglar sells a lot of books, and starts his own university, where he teaches kids words like "fail" don't exist.
11:16	mircea_popescu	you can't possibly allow change on the grounds of marketplace success like that.
11:16	mircea_popescu	it
11:16	mircea_popescu	s a fundamentally self defeating, socialist-driving approach.
11:16	xmj	hrm
11:16	xmj	moriarty: ancaps are boring
11:16	moriarty	xmj, it's an appealing ideology to be fair
11:16	mircea_popescu	moriarty > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-sociology/ http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/
11:16	assbot	A complete theory of sociology pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
11:16	assbot	A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
11:16	xmj	moriarty: they talk, and talk, and push out academic papers- --- and never do antyhing.
11:16	xmj	moriarty: trust me, i've been one for three years, i'd know.
11:17	xmj	moriarty: much better to read moldbug, be evil and call yourself royalist.
11:17	xmj	NRx :3
11:18	mircea_popescu	o look, xmj still derping around on the basis of his 3 year experience. hai babee, how goes.
11:19	moriarty	mircea_popescu, Adam Smith is a classic if not a little dated, like most liberal arts field, perhaps it would be more helpful to consider more recent counterarguments like those by Jared Diamond
11:19	moriarty	but very nice article nevertheless, i haven't read something interesting in awhile :)
11:19	mircea_popescu	bring it ?
11:20	bounce	IMNSHO there's no universal magic perfect government size, so it comes down to choice. what do we want our government to do? well, maybe we could start a market to find out.
11:20	moriarty	Jared Diamond tries to take a holistic look into the apparently serendipitous distribution of wealth among nations
11:20	mircea_popescu	bounce the original idea of "voting with feet" as implemented in the us is exactly that.
11:20	mircea_popescu	let the us not be a federation of states but a marketplace of states.
11:20	moriarty	in his famous book, Guns, Germs and Steel
11:20	moriarty	:)
11:21	mircea_popescu	moriarty yeah but i mean, you can construct his argument and bring it at me see what happens
11:21	bounce	doesn't appear to've held up to the ages though.
11:21	mircea_popescu	well no, which is why celebrating traitors a la lincoln as some sort of national heroes is so mind boggling.
11:21	moriarty	xmj, lol moldbug is a blogger, i take it?
11:21	mircea_popescu	sorta like having stalin's statue in ukraina.
11:22	mircea_popescu	moriarty yeah he's the guy who spent 2012 insisting bitcoin can't survive, then started a bitcoin kiler of his own which we kiled
11:22	xmj	http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/
11:22	assbot	Unqualified Reservations
11:22	mircea_popescu	and is now doing i dunno what, but probably not much.
11:22	bounce	bit of a problem where all you get is package deals run by people who, because they run the show, suddenly have all sorts of entrenched interests and become vulnerable to all kinds and manners of coercion
11:22	xmj	that's moldbug
11:22	moriarty	xmj, i got routed to ##austrians from ##econometrics when someone made an observation that some of my comments leaned towards ancap tendencies, so i'm newer to the scene, although i've always found a blend of hayes/keynes economics to be most delightful
11:22	xmj	he's pioneered a good deal of the "reactosphere" -- neoreactionary blogosphere
11:22	mircea_popescu	bounce that bit seems contradictory. how can you coerce the entrenched ?
11:23	mircea_popescu	reddit's been trying to coerce me for ages, so what ?
11:24	bounce	because it goes both ways. fingers in pies everywhere, stuffed envelopes from everywhere
11:24	mircea_popescu	moriarty o you from chile ?
11:24	mircea_popescu	bounce so then not so entrenched ?
11:25	bounce	hm. probably a hairsplitting confusion here
11:25	moriarty	mircea_popescu, well, i'd try not to dilute his book into a one-liner, but essentially a blend of technological warfare i.e. guns, a serendipitous adaptability to germs via advances in medicine, and progress in transport hulls made out of steel, which arose incidentally from ideal farming conditions e.g. arable land which gave rise to a choice of livestock, was why the seemingly unequal
11:25	moriarty	distribution of wealth
11:25	moriarty	mircea_popescu, in short, first-mover advantage
11:25	moriarty	mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work?
11:25	mircea_popescu	moriarty not the point to make a one liner, it's like chess. you construct his argument by asking me questions or w/e other discursive procedure you favour.
11:26	mircea_popescu	<moriarty> mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work? > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-99232
11:26	assbot	A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
11:26	moriarty	mircea_popescu, heh, well i made a fortune off bitcoin, but i never saw the point in holding a strong philosophical stance on the utility of cryptocurrencies
11:26	moriarty	xmj, thanks for the link
11:27	mircea_popescu	moriarty possibly because you didn't make a fortune large enough :)
11:27	moriarty	mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas
11:27	moriarty	:)
11:27	xmj	moriarty: just beware, neoreaction is still considered "evil"
11:27	xmj	parts of it are genuinely racist (they lablel themselves "human biodiversity" HBD)
11:28	moriarty	mircea_popescu, BBU as in Birkbeck?
11:28	mircea_popescu	;;google babes-bolyiai university
11:28	gribble	UBB , Babes Bolyai University: <http://www.ubbcluj.ro/en/>; UBB , Universitatea Babes Bolyai: <http://www.ubbcluj.ro/>; Constantin Craciun profiles | LinkedIn: <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/?first=Constantin&last=Craciun>
11:28	mircea_popescu	that thing
11:29	mircea_popescu	<moriarty> mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas << nah it was because i was just laughing my ass off at this "galt's gulch" disaster.
11:29	moriarty	xmj, neoreaction from first glance off the internet appears to be one of those anachronistic romanticism :)
11:29	moriarty	xmj, correct me if i'm wrong
11:29	mircea_popescu	wanted to lol with a ;ocal.
11:29	xmj	no that's the neo part
11:29	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol my fortune was in seven figures, so large enough for me :P
11:30	xmj	we are going to do it better
11:30	assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0J14F6T.txt )
11:30	mircea_popescu	!b 1
11:30	xmj	moriarty: it's funny. i've seen the progression AnCap -> NRx happen a few times
11:31	xmj	and, some of the ideas particularly appeal. like, not having the social welfare state fund the procreation of stupid people, because... they're stupid.
11:31	moriarty	mircea_popescu, anyone gullible enough to believe the authenticity or originality of Ayn Rand deserves to live in Galt Gulch :P
11:32	moriarty	Ayn Rand is the philosophical equivalent (you would know this better than me), of Nassim Taleb of the statistical world
11:32	mircea_popescu	moriarty you're wioth the "it's the protocols of sion v2.0" point of view ?
11:32	mircea_popescu	i happen to be a taleb fan actually
11:32	moriarty	a popularist of sorts, amalgamating opinions of the past and attempting to take credit for it
11:32	xmj	nah
11:32	moriarty	there's nothing new in both their works, for the inclined
11:32	xmj	ayn rand did have a few cool things
11:33	mircea_popescu	yeah well, i don't particularly favour new stuff. what exactly is ever new.
11:33	moriarty	xmj, how much better are the neoreactionaries aiming for? :P
11:33	xmj	to infinity
11:33	xmj	and beyond!
11:34	moriarty	xmj, i am fully for stupid people not procreating, but i suppose that threatens the sanctity of humanity above the animal kingdom, we seem still unable to fully accept the depedestalisation of homo sapiens
11:35	xmj	well yeah, people put all sorts of things on pedestals
11:35	xmj	gods, women, mammon..
11:35	moriarty	mircea_popescu, well, i guess it was easier being a popular philosopher or statistician in the past, when one did not have to read countless landmark academic papers in order to keep up with the conversation, as one has to these days
11:35	mircea_popescu	i don't think the conversation is worth keeping up with.
11:36	moriarty	mircea_popescu, so i suppose we ought to thank the popularists for at least reminiscing some of the past arguments for the popular public to enjoy a flavour of, and perhaps bring some publicity to what would otherwise be dusty fields relegated to the backshelves of some university library
11:36	bounce	.oO( nimrod faltered )
11:37	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i guess i can see why from a philosophical sense, if one has inclinations towards the literal and the objective
11:37	bounce	well, regurgitating old ideas like they're your own smacks of intelectual dishonesty. do it without that and shed some detractors.
11:37	mircea_popescu	moriarty looky, if the conversation were worth following, then 30 years of the finance industry following it would show some benefit for it.
11:37	mircea_popescu	meanwhile we got... gauss copulae.
11:37	mircea_popescu	i can be well spared the "conversation" of pointless academics trying to publish or perish. not worth following.
11:37	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've read works by Lacan and such, and i feel almost as if i have to delve into some metaphysical reality, and not take them at their analogies seriously, especially when they try to use precise notions from mathematics to attempt to build some sort of bridge to their reality
11:38	moriarty	but i'm an armchair philosopher so what do i know :)
11:38	xmj	bingo so am i
11:38	mircea_popescu	and the argument that taleb is "popularizing" brought by butthurt but otherwise worthless "statisticians" in their own estimation neatly mirrors the same criticism brought by "economists" in their own estimation re buffett.
11:38	xmj	moriarty: who stated taleb's black swan before him?
11:38	moriarty	plus i've been unduely influenced by the work of Sokal, Bricmont, i.e. Fashionable Nonsense
11:38	mircea_popescu	in point of fact, there exists no intellectualy respectable economist outside of buffett that lived in the 2nd part of the 20th century.
11:38	xmj	or, well, who gave it a name? likewise for antifragility
11:38	mircea_popescu	i suspect this is true to a lesser degree in statistics.
11:39	mircea_popescu	lacan is a total idiot, if he were a woman he'd be irigaray.
11:39	mircea_popescu	complexity is not a good predictor of quality. not in the ontos, not in the gnosis.
11:40	moriarty	mircea_popescu, actually, the conversations in finance are not as cohesive unfortunately as in other fields, so the flipside of that is today the popular strand of conversation happens to be a fork that the more seriously inclined would not fully agree with or find it a bit juvenile
11:40	mircea_popescu	fair enough.
11:40	moriarty	mircea_popescu, finance or economics, is closely linked to the political nuances of a country, so whenever one reads journals by personalities like Paul Krugman, nobelist though he may be, i always read it keeping in mind his political proclivities
11:41	moriarty	because of his governmental appointments etc
11:41	mircea_popescu	i can't read him, it's like going to a museum of children "artwork"
11:41	mircea_popescu	fucking boringly stupid.
11:41	moriarty	mircea_popescu, an example of a less biased conversation would be one by Mandelbrot
11:41	moriarty	mircea_popescu, http://www.amazon.com/The-Misbehavior-Markets-Financial-Turbulence/dp/0465043577
11:41	assbot	The Misbehavior of Markets: A Fractal View of Financial Turbulence: Benoit Mandelbrot, Richard L. Hudson: 9780465043576: Amazon.com: Books
11:41	moriarty	that is an excellent piece of work
11:41	xmj	Mandelbrot is brilliant, yes
11:41	xmj	also his book Fractals and Scaling in Finance
11:42	mircea_popescu	certainly, mandelbrot is not bad.
11:42	bounce	how about paul ormerod?
11:43	mircea_popescu	!up sardan_
11:44	sardan_	thx :)
11:44	mircea_popescu	you're welcome. who're you ?
11:44	sardan_	giotto :)
11:45	mircea_popescu	lolk
11:47	sardan_	I sent you an email by the way, not sure if you received it (regarding a domain)
11:47	bounce	mpoe ated it
11:47	sardan_	:(
11:49	sardan_	anyone would be interested in purchasing/doing something with the domain BitcoinCasino.com?
11:49	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together) << didn't roman coinage remain in some limited use into the middle ages because of lack of alternative?
11:49	bounce	ask in -otc
11:49	mircea_popescu	sardan_ what domain ?
11:49	sardan_	bitcoincasino.com
11:50	mircea_popescu	ah. the consensus here is that domains are worth about 10 bux,
11:50	mircea_popescu	and recently i have been giving them away for free, so.
11:50	sardan_	ok :)
11:50	mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski not the same pressures. i meant usg specifically.
11:51	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: so the usians have alternatives? or...
11:51	mircea_popescu	nah, the reichmark wasn't nearly as integrated.
11:52	mircea_popescu	integration <-> stability.
11:52	pete_dushenski	a ok.
11:52	pete_dushenski	so then us scrip should have some life left in it
11:52	xmj	moriarty: do you consider yourself an ancap?
11:53	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu to the extent that it's highly integrated and there are few obvious alternatives
11:53	mircea_popescu	scrip will definitely outlive the usd.
11:53	pete_dushenski	not that the row will much care what happens in somalia
11:54	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: sorta the way roman coinage did, eh?
11:54	mircea_popescu	that was very unintegrated.
11:55	mircea_popescu	cause metallic, see ?
11:55	mircea_popescu	integration, for the record, is simply a measure of mutual dependence. think in terms of a couple. the more things they do together, te more integrated they are.
11:55	mircea_popescu	a metal coin is literally like a whore. 0 integration, she fucks random other men.
11:56	pete_dushenski	mm ok
11:57	pete_dushenski	whereas usd is now basically a digital token
11:57	mircea_popescu	pretty much entirely integrated. no policy in the us can be implemented without control of the currency.
11:57	mircea_popescu	hence the earlier discussion with decimation about how much the nist asked him to pay, and how it's basically "come with a note from stalin"
11:58	pete_dushenski	lol and cad is even worse, i think 4% paper vs. 11% for usd
11:59	mircea_popescu	paper is a minor nook anyway, in the grand scheme of things.
11:59	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla here ?
11:59	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: well what other nooks are there?
11:59	pete_dushenski	other than btc
12:00	mircea_popescu	for instance it being metallic is a huge gulf. arguably pegging it to btc even huger.
12:00	mircea_popescu	disallowing sharing of financial information is a sizeable nook
12:00	mircea_popescu	(basically, making kyc illegal)
12:00	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 5.47394288 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 476 satoshi per share
12:00	kakobrekla	si senor
12:00	mircea_popescu	basically, a government trending to totalitarism will correctly perceive as threats all protections from integration
12:01	mircea_popescu	this flows from the definition
12:01	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla this email, wtf is it ? i do not comprehend, what ?
12:01	kakobrekla	nfi i think he emailed to too now
12:01	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: right. total must be… total
12:02	kakobrekla	!up moriarty
12:03	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.27202039 BTC to 15`091 shares, 8429 satoshi per share
12:04	mircea_popescu	whatevers. i replied and that's that.
12:04	moriarty	bounce, what would you recommend from paul ormerod?
12:04	moriarty	xmj, well black swan for starters has its roots in the classical Humean dilemma :) (i've referenced him because i know mircea_popescu would like it)
12:04	moriarty	sardan_, how much are you selling bitcoincasino.com for?
12:04	mircea_popescu	;;gettrust assbot moriarty
12:04	gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user moriarty: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=moriarty | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=moriarty | Rated since: never
12:04	mircea_popescu	;;rate moriarty 1 some sort of libertarian or something.
12:04	gribble	Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.
12:05	kakobrekla	>Kako, please forward idiots to #bitcoin-assets instead of my inbox. < fyi did not such thing.
12:05	mircea_popescu	moriarty how about you get in thre wot
12:05	kakobrekla	no*
12:05	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla i know, but it was for his benefit. give the man a chance to redeem himself.
12:05	sardan_	moriarty, Make me an offer :-)
12:05	moriarty	xmj, no, i don't tend to look at myself dichotomously, i'm an assembly of aspects from both sides of the political and socioeconomical spectrum, left and right as they conveniently classify it
12:05	kakobrekla	ah k.
12:06	moriarty	xmj, but there is an appeal to anarchist capitalism, once you look past the easy conclusion that capitalism requires some sort of legal framework in which to operate in, so not fully anarchist, but then looking past that, they do have interesting opinions
12:06	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've fully liquidated my bitcoin position, so i guess no motivation for me to join WoT now
12:07	moriarty	;;gettrust assbot mircea_popescu
12:07	gribble	Currently authenticated from hostmask mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu. Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 26 via 26 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=mircea_popescu | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=mircea_popescu | Rated since: Fri Jul 22 11:04:26 2011
12:07	pete_dushenski	moriarty: you crazy
12:07	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've done a sybil on localbitcoins though :) just so i don't get pinned down as the guy with shitloads of bitcoin
12:07	mircea_popescu	moriarty it allows you to get voice here.
12:10	moriarty	sardan_, an offer, $10 :-)
12:10	xmj	moriarty: here's the problem
12:10	sardan_	moriarty, To low :-)
12:11	xmj	moriarty: there will /always/ be demand for state and redistribution, because the lower 51% will want to loot the upper 49%
12:11	sardan_	I mean too low
12:11	xmj	it's logical -- as long as they can get away with it they'll do it, and use mob force.
12:11	moriarty	mircea_popescu, that would not be very meaningful these days considering how some no longer buy/sell bitcoin unfortunately
12:12	mircea_popescu	so what, stick to the fleshlight and egg custard crowd over on austrians ? i guess can do that, sure.
12:12	xmj	moriarty: and as much as the ancapists a la kinsella and molyneux would like to believe, they cannot overcome this with non-monopolist private security agencies
12:12	moriarty	xmj, sure, but demands of any kind play a subservient role to the sanctity of the constitution, and if ancaps were to form a nation, they could very well enshrine those principles in there
12:13	moriarty	xmj, the way i see it, you like a country's constitution, join it, no? then emigrate :)
12:13	mircea_popescu	enshrine my foot.
12:13	xmj	moriarty: ancap constitution... what?
12:13	xmj	moriarty: yes, that is how it works (exit vs voice), but most people are already in the land you'd like ancapistan to be
12:14	moriarty	xmj, i don't take it too literally, anything taken in its pure definition does not exist in reality, there are no socialist or capitalist society today
12:14	moriarty	it's always a blend
12:14	xmj	i take /that one/ binary
12:15	moriarty	xmj, a balance between welfare state and free markets, and how much of a blend depends partly on the origins of the country, a la its constitution, and the culture trickled top down from previous political establishments a la informal variant of the constitution
12:15	xmj	either anarcho-capitalism or socialism. social welfare states have come to be sooooo sooo sooo socialist that heck, Lenin would be proud.
12:15	moriarty	so china may be "capitalist" but its roots and the one-party system would ensure that their brand of capitalism would almost likely never converge to american capitalism
12:16	moriarty	it's hard to be free market, when the party dictates who lives and who doesn't :P
12:16	bounce	just to be clear, what do you understand to be the defining properties of a welfare state?
12:17	mircea_popescu	so i go to #electronics to see if either asciilifeform or diametric hang in there. they have a bot, i do !help, it says
12:17	mircea_popescu	<Gigs> Usage: !wire <AWG>, gives stats for copper wire of <AWG> size
12:17	mircea_popescu	i nearly fainted.
12:17	moriarty	bounce, any form of redistribution from the haves to the have-nots is welfare, from medical insurance to unemployment benefits
12:18	chetty	well these days its more like from the have nots to the haves
12:18	moriarty	mircea_popescu, like it or not, a country has got to stand up for the reason it was founded, otherwise, there is little point to be loyal or even nationalistic about it, when it can be hijacked philosophically
12:18	mircea_popescu	moriarty no country will stand up for a deal.
12:18	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i see countries as clubs, that if you do not like the constitution or culture, then you are welcome to join something more to your inclination
12:19	bounce	so, a government that takes in taxes but does not give handouts isn't a welfare state?
12:19	mircea_popescu	moriarty this is a nice theory anyone would subscribe to. both those who will and those who won't. after which, disaster of commons.
12:19	moriarty	mircea_popescu, of course this ideal is currently impeded by what i consider to be a gross infraction on one of the basic human rights, that is the freedom of movement across borders, one trivialised by border control and such
12:19	mircea_popescu	the only winning move being not to waste your own resources to defend their shit.
12:19	mircea_popescu	not currently. permanently. not by anything but simple game theory.
12:20	moriarty	bounce, well, in the most direct form, but you can always indirectly do welfare, free education for instance, is one such example
12:20	moriarty	bounce, food subsidies is another example
12:20	moriarty	bounce, fuel subsidies
12:21	moriarty	then of course we can get a little more creative and consider public transportation too, to be a form of welfare
12:21	mircea_popescu	o.O
12:21	mircea_popescu	now that's insane. why subsidize energy expenditure ?!
12:21	moriarty	public transportation is never a profitmaking venture
12:21	moriarty	mircea_popescu, to help the poverty stricken
12:21	mircea_popescu	fuck them ?
12:21	moriarty	mircea_popescu, inefficient, i know, but hey some countries do it
12:21	mircea_popescu	they can sit on a chair.
12:21	mircea_popescu	nol but the free education thing i can see. if you're going to teach everyone the same thing (language) might as well do it for free. your show, your tickets.
12:22	mircea_popescu	but energy ?! no. just... no way.
12:22	moriarty	well, free education if mandated, sure, but it exists along a free market system that elitises education in a freemium sense :)
12:23	moriarty	a la free online education via the MIT initiative, OCW, noble though it is, vis-a-vis the good ol' paid education you get face-to-face
12:23	mircea_popescu	actually free mandatory quoted education is imo the way to do education. 100% 4 years, if any kid fails it shoot him. 99.x% 8 years, if any kid fails he is not allowed to ever have sex with another. no matter what.
12:23	mircea_popescu	then 50% 12 years and 5 to 10% 16 years. and that's it.
12:24	bounce	you know what's going to happen: everyone passes.
12:24	mircea_popescu	you can not run for office unless in one of these two categories.
12:24	mircea_popescu	maybe. but if the kids can't read, shoot the teachers.
12:24	moriarty	bounce has a point even though mircea_popescu's intentions are noble
12:24	moriarty	it happened in the UK unfortunately
12:24	moriarty	we had a lofty target of 50% tertiary literacy rates
12:25	mircea_popescu	not target. maximum.
12:25	moriarty	and then a recent mass study conducted indicated social mobility did not happen despite more people than ever having university degrees
12:25	mircea_popescu	quota as in, no more than this may pass no matter what happens.
12:25	moriarty	i see
12:25	moriarty	that sounds like singapore then, a social experiment in of itself
12:25	bounce	the degrees dropped in difficulty AND value?
12:25	moriarty	bounce, well, not across the board
12:25	mircea_popescu	yeah well this socialistoid idiocy... "currently college ed people are upwards movbile let's give degrees to anyone wait that changes mobiliy ?!?!!?" is like, become a woman, they liove longer.
12:25	moriarty	bounce, but you had universities catering across the spectrum of students
12:26	moriarty	bounce, alongside funding opportunities
12:26	mircea_popescu	the observed property is based on not having been tampered with
12:26	moriarty	bounce, it is cheaper to go to some universities than others, geographically as well as prestige-wise
12:26	decimation	Vexual: The clock is going to drive various rf devices & data capture systems
12:26	moriarty	mircea_popescu, haha good point
12:27	bounce	bit of a fail that policy makers tend to forget that little detail
12:27	moriarty	mircea_popescu, singapore took your opinion to a slightly more extreme point, their university application form consists of a ranking of six majors, and the state then allocates a major to you based on a threshold that is demand-adjusted
12:28	moriarty	mircea_popescu, so if photography has low demand but high applicant rates, then most of them get rejected
12:28	mircea_popescu	sensible.
12:28	moriarty	yep, but leaves little room for individualism
12:28	mircea_popescu	kinda how romania/eastern europe worked too.
12:28	mircea_popescu	then 20 years later, romania dominates the internet.
12:28	moriarty	imagine, if you wrote down six majors you thought you wanted to do in order of preference, only to be given your last choice
12:28	mircea_popescu	in spte of being what, 0.3% of word pop
12:29	moriarty	that would be painful, or not since i'm looking at it from a western point of view :)
12:29	moriarty	i imagine singaporeans must be accustomed to not getting their way at anything
12:29	moriarty	and the government decides their whole lives for them
12:30	moriarty	in the UK, the same thing happens, but it is done more surreptiously so the pain is less obvious
12:31	moriarty	you are given six choices of universities for ideally the same major (you could even mix and match majors but let's take the simpler assumption)
12:31	moriarty	so the threshold is adjusted based on your choice, your funeral
12:31	mircea_popescu	moriarty it's not "the governemnt" any more than it's gravity.
12:31	mircea_popescu	you wanna jump higher ? train, bitch.
12:31	moriarty	if you take a highly subscribed course but you are not cream of the crop, then you are assigned a less serious university, and you may harbour fantasies of serendipity working in your favour come working world time, but that wouldn't logically happen
12:32	bounce	bureaucrazies are heavy but not gravity themselves
12:32	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol
12:32	mircea_popescu	what, lol ?
12:33	mircea_popescu	in the 80s romania there used to be about 100 18yo girls a year hanging themselves for having sucked at tests.
12:33	mircea_popescu	seems a perfect way to run a country.
12:33	asciilifeform	japan - valhalla ?
12:34	asciilifeform	!up moriarty
12:34	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i guess in a way you could say singapore is being "kinder" by telling you upfront that if you take that course, your employment chances will be fucked, so let's help make this idiot-proof as possible by barring you from choosing that road
12:34	mircea_popescu	oyu're not barred. you simply don't qualify.
12:34	mircea_popescu	suck it and change.
12:34	mircea_popescu	any system that forces change upon the individual is going to win longterm
12:34	mircea_popescu	because that's the cheapest thing to change.
12:35	asciilifeform	actually - cheapest thing to change, assuming 'chose parents well' - is system.
12:35	mircea_popescu	nope.
12:35	asciilifeform	hence late-soviet era gold medals given to favourite sons.
12:35	mircea_popescu	systems can not exist but in a very narrow space of stable nodes.
12:35	moriarty	in singapore, there is no room for change though, there is no automatic pass up the high school ladder, if you fail or do poorly, you get streamlined to the lower education tier
12:35	mircea_popescu	whereas the space for individuals is immensely more dense.
12:35	mircea_popescu	so, the ilusion of having "changed" the system may be cheaply attained
12:35	mircea_popescu	but all you've done is upset a pendulum
12:36	moriarty	their entire education system is tiered, with forks occuring after junior school, after high school, and after pre-university
12:36	mircea_popescu	moriarty you ever read the gpg contracts article ?
12:36	moriarty	if you're not good enough, you get streamed to what essentially pigeonholes you to the blue-collar stream
12:37	moriarty	mircea_popescu, remind me?
12:37	mircea_popescu	moriarty http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/ <. the tl;dr being, don't change after you fucked up. change before.
12:37	assbot	GPG contracts pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
12:37	mircea_popescu	nature doesn't come with a "you took that path and a lion ate you, would you like to retry yes/no/cancel"
12:38	moriarty	mircea_popescu, that's a good point, i like singapore's system too
12:38	bounce	we do a lot better than nature by allowing learning from mistakes and therefore retries
12:38	moriarty	although if one wants to be sappy about it, life does throw curveballs at some individuals more than others
12:39	moriarty	and the singaporean social experiment assumes implicitly that curveballs are totally within the individual's control
12:39	mircea_popescu	bounce hard retries offer no promise of learning from mistakes.
12:39	mircea_popescu	they instead allow mistakes to be carried forth
12:39	TheNewDeal	;;seen TomServo
12:39	gribble	TomServo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <TomServo> Shouldn't this supposed ETH dump be coming from: https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2 ?
12:39	mircea_popescu	which is why hard amiga games in the 80s were a lot better than the crap today,
12:39	moriarty	in essence, there are negative externalities based on the draw of the hand, where some individuals never get tested on their fortitude in dealing with familial crises, and others do
12:39	mircea_popescu	and which is why a fundamentally idiotic game model (the platformer, the scroller, etc) were still loads of fun
12:39	moriarty	so the singaporean model discounts earlier on, individuals that come from more fractious backgrounds, by tiering them very early on
12:40	moriarty	without any ladder back up
12:40	mircea_popescu	moriarty no. it encourages backgrounds to not be fracturous
12:40	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i can't have been the only boy who wanted a game machine that would physically damage you when you fuck up...
12:40	mircea_popescu	under punishment of marginalkising their fruits.
12:40	mircea_popescu	which is why all east european families were VERY stable
12:40	moriarty	mircea_popescu, principal-agency dilemma
12:40	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well i was more reflexive in my wishes.
12:40	mircea_popescu	moriarty not a dilemma in any sense.
12:40	moriarty	mircea_popescu, in short, the motivations of the parents are not entirely aligned with the children
12:41	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "i wish they kiled idiots so then they'd be real cheap and i could get them all"
12:41	TheNewDeal	;;later tell TomServo has arrived. I can meet today (9/20) or tomorrow (9/21). Otherwise it's going to be a couple weeks
12:41	gribble	The operation succeeded.
12:41	mircea_popescu	moriarty why is this a problem ?
12:41	moriarty	mircea_popescu, it does not affect the parent as negatively as the offspring, particularly if the parent is not emotionally vulnerable to its offspring :)
12:41	mircea_popescu	it does, yes.
12:41	moriarty	mircea_popescu, but you're right, it makes for an interesting society experiment
12:42	TheNewDeal	;;ticker
12:42	gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 427.0, Best ask: 427.29, Bid-ask spread: 0.29000, Last trade: 427.29, 24 hour volume: 21262.91819002, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 408.789480514
12:42	mircea_popescu	it's just that the parent may not whine as audibly as the child. but you can't rule by whining
12:42	moriarty	mircea_popescu, cost of living is high in singapore, so those without the proper education tend to resort to less conducive means to make a living
12:42	moriarty	mircea_popescu, think social escorts, etc
12:42	mircea_popescu	perfect.
12:42	moriarty	haha :P
12:42	mircea_popescu	the problem with us noobs is that instead of sucking cock and being humble, they reddit.
12:42	mircea_popescu	what if that entire population were put in its place ?
12:43	mircea_popescu	suddenly the us dollar could compete with the singapore dollar.
12:43	asciilifeform	biodiesel ?
12:43	moriarty	there is truth to that
12:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "social escorts" is a much better euphemism,.
12:43	mircea_popescu	aka "beg someone much better than you to tolerate your presence"
12:43	moriarty	lol
12:44	moriarty	anyway, i think education is one of the nice ways the elites of society has deceived the havenots :) i think xmj earlier pointed out about how the 51% would overthrow the 49%
12:44	mircea_popescu	no, they wouldn't.
12:44	moriarty	but see, if you're elite, then you would have more conniving methods of undermining the other side of society
12:44	mircea_popescu	this is so much derpage reflecting the extremely narrow case of where a bunch of people worked with their muscles.
12:44	mircea_popescu	the intellect-muscle debate has nothing to do with the loser-winner debate
12:44	moriarty	because education alone is not the key to gainful employment, it helps if you have strong connections and networking
12:44	mircea_popescu	even if british society in the 1800s miscalculate dthe value of muscle.
12:45	xmj	hmh
12:45	mircea_popescu	but in point of fact, the 51% of which idiots like xmj are part would NEVER overcome the 49% which includes me.
12:45	xmj	moriarty: education is mostly a signal
12:45	moriarty	not that i'm griping about connections and such :P the way i see it, we inherit genes as we do connections
12:45	bounce	oh hey, ancient roman patronage practices. would fit the us' crumbling empire elan
12:45	mircea_popescu	for the simple reason that he's an idiot. what's he going to do ? whine ?
12:45	mircea_popescu	"ignore" me ?
12:45	xmj	signal of intelligence, as education is more costly for the less-intelligent
12:45	mircea_popescu	bounce quite.
12:45	moriarty	xmj, a signal that is second in importance to the signalling of connections
12:45	xmj	so for them it's an incentive to opt out earlier
12:46	moriarty	xmj, someone personally vouching for you is a far more powerful statement than an educational factory produced paper
12:46	bounce	too bad the us is really too prude for that, though
12:46	xmj	moriarty: certainly
12:46	xmj	moriarty: but do not underestimate the paper
12:46	moriarty	xmj, and that kind of connection comes inherited, not unlike genetic material
12:46	xmj	it's an ingenious way to signal ability
12:46	mircea_popescu	bounce or is it ?
12:46	bounce	japan still has those personal vouching things going on in contracts
12:46	xmj	moriarty: social class is inherited
12:47	moriarty	mircea_popescu, hehe
12:47	mircea_popescu	seems to me the black guys are already doing it, and that may explain their preeminence over the prude whites.
12:47	bounce	it's still violence over nipples there
12:47	xmj	moriarty: one of the reason that is, is because intelligence is heritable and people cluster around their intelligence
12:47	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i can see your proclivities towards the ancap notions
12:47	xmj	I <3 nipples.
12:47	mircea_popescu	they're not proclivities, i wrote the damned book :D
12:47	mircea_popescu	they just copied me badly.
12:49	decimation	much time and attention in the us is devoted to making sure every last miscreant gets at least 50 chances to do good
12:49	moriarty	xmj, i agree, intelligence, beauty, the things that ultimately lead us to do what we want to do through meaningful employment, have lots of meaningless sex with as many beautiful people as possible
12:49	moriarty	mircea_popescu, haha
12:49	xmj	heh
12:49	xmj	moriarty: really, sex drive is at the core of male achievement.
12:49	mircea_popescu	decimation too much.
12:50	bounce	throw in all the people put in pre-trial jail and the numbers drop quite a lot
12:50	moriarty	mircea_popescu, well that's why all politicians are liars, in order to be a man of the people, you have to ascribe to philosophies you don't truly believe in to win them over, just so you can fuck them over later on, to protect your class, your clan and family
12:50	xmj	the church did a good job at reinforcing the already existing institution of marriage
12:50	danielpbarron	most of the ancaps I encounter seem to lean more towards the socialist side than they'd like to admit -- what with all their "fairness for all" mantra, as if unrestrained capitalism won't deal a crushing blow to the dregs of society
12:50	mircea_popescu	anyone got an opinion on lesswrong.com ?
12:50	moriarty	xmj, females too
12:50	bounce	the problem there is essentially "random" justice. that's fairly bad for encouraging people to pick up better habits.
12:50	xmj	moriarty: marriage is a way of ensuring betas get laid, it's one of the more controversial claims
12:51	xmj	yes them too, sure.
12:51	xmj	moriarty: this is why societies embracing absolute nuclear families do better than societies that have extended families / clans -- inter-generational wealth transfers.
12:51	mircea_popescu	moriarty i have my doubts about that model, but anyway.
12:52	mircea_popescu	danielpbarron generally people don't know what the things they claim to want imply.
12:52	mircea_popescu	because... thinking. is hard.
12:52	decimation	mircea_popescu: re: lesswrong they push that 'hard-ai' bullshit pretty hard
12:53	moriarty	xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime
12:53	decimation	also here's an amusing thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5242570
12:53	assbot	Lesswrong is a weird place. I can read an awesome, insightful article one moment... | Hacker News
12:53	moriarty	xmj, not a popular opinion either, but hey :)
12:54	moriarty	mircea_popescu, what model is this?
12:54	decimation	on the pain of offending the almighty future-ai-god, I claim that he won't exist
12:54	mircea_popescu	moriarty this.
12:54	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lesswrong is filled with people who have fallen between the cracks of society
12:54	xmj	moriarty: yeah that part is pretty brilliant
12:54	mircea_popescu	moriarty ahahha unlike what, bitcoin ?
12:54	xmj	moriarty: you know, bread 'n games
12:54	xmj	keep'm occupied.
12:54	moriarty	mircea_popescu, they have potential, but are limited by the ability to realise those potential, because of their minority status and not many people defending them really
12:55	mircea_popescu	well maybe they come to daddy.
12:56	mircea_popescu	<moriarty> xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime << so now you also gotta read http://trilema.com/2014/how-i-was-wrong-cuckolding-or-a-story-about-sigmas/
12:56	assbot	How I was wrong : Cuckolding, or a story about sigmas pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
12:56	mircea_popescu	this will never end!!1
12:56	moriarty	xmj, yeah, http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2004/sep/19/features.magazine37 - sums up eloquently the human condition
12:56	assbot	The brothel creeper | From the Observer | The Observer
12:56	xmj	guardian from 2004?
12:56	xmj	that must be good that you still remember/care
12:56	mircea_popescu	and in other news, http://i.imgur.com/UkRnes7.jpg
12:57	moriarty	xmj, i didn't read it back in 2004, i found it recently when i was hyperlinking around :)
12:57	xmj	ok
12:58	moriarty	mircea_popescu, what is your take on marriage?
12:59	mircea_popescu	understood as what ?
12:59	xmj	moriarty: screwing >1000 hookers is pretty sad
12:59	xmj	screwing >1000 normal people without paying cash for it would be a considerable achievement
13:00	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i like your take
13:00	mircea_popescu	which one lol
13:00	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i've been told by a woman that women exist on a plane different to men
13:00	mircea_popescu	yaya
13:01	xmj	"The great thing about sex with whores is the excitement and variety." yeah, well, you could just travel and seduce...
13:01	moriarty	mircea_popescu, and in not so many words, it's easy to put yourselves in the shoes of a woman, if you imagine them to be first a man, take away reason, and accountability
13:01	mircea_popescu	that;s ludicrous.
13:02	moriarty	i know, but that's what they are :)
13:02	xmj	What I hate are meaningless and heartless one-night stands where you tell all sorts of lies to get into bed with a woman you don't care for.
13:02	moriarty	it's best not to try to understand them
13:02	xmj	I totally agree with this sentence.
13:02	xmj	moriarty: what, women or whores? :)
13:02	moriarty	i've long given up on that pursuit, so whenever a woman argues, i just empathise with her and agree with her
13:02	moriarty	lol xmj
13:02	xmj	i've become better at screening
13:03	xmj	but, y'know, law of attraction is a bitch.
13:03	mircea_popescu	dude get out, i understand women just fine.
13:03	moriarty	xmj, men are shallow by nature, our emotions do not run as deeply as women (unless we grew up on a heavy dose of sappy films)
13:03	mircea_popescu	it's not particularly hard, either, just as long as you comprehend that the "differnet plane" bs is bs, and that there's more variety between different women than between women and men.
13:05	xmj	"The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn't deliver the goods. Teasers are never pleasers; they greedily accept presents to seal a contract and then break it."
13:05	xmj	well, if you're not man (or high value) enough to MAKE her deliver
13:08	decimation	!up moriarty
13:08	moriarty	xmj, that's quintessentially the female response to the common masculine argument of cockteasers; rephrasing it, it's not that i'm not putting out enough, you're just not good enough
13:08	mircea_popescu	moriarty seeing the value in a wot acct yet ? :D
13:08	xmj	that might be the female response
13:08	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol i would need to trade bitcoin in order to get a wot acct, right?
13:08	xmj	that IS something i've empirically been able to validate
13:08	xmj	:)
13:08	mircea_popescu	no.
13:09	decimation	moriarty: no you just need to make a gpg key
13:09	moriarty	xmj, what i mean is this - females are very articulate in dealmaking, and there is almost no deal in which they conduct themselves, socially or otherwise, that would leave them worse off than before
13:09	mircea_popescu	moriarty how about slavegirls ?
13:09	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol
13:09	mircea_popescu	what lol ?
13:10	moriarty	mircea_popescu, in the confines of a conventional western society today
13:10	moriarty	:P
13:10	mircea_popescu	yes.
13:10	decimation	slavery is all around you moriarty
13:10	xmj	there can be
13:10	xmj	never underestimate the willingness of women to stay in bad/unhealthy relationships
13:10	moriarty	xmj, because, pure and simple, they are not logical creatures
13:10	moriarty	they are bags of emotions
13:10	decimation	what is a council-house full of couch-sitters other than slaves of the state? with the state being a worthless master?
13:10	moriarty	they thrive on what thrills them
13:10	xmj	moriarty: you're not, either
13:10	mircea_popescu	moriarty http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-mosu-cu-joarda/ << take them there. better off than before ?
13:10	assbot	NSFW - Mosu’ cu joarda pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
13:11	moriarty	xmj, drama is one way to get into a woman's pants
13:11	xmj	moriarty: you run on testosterone and adrenaline and dopamin and whatever.
13:11	moriarty	xmj, there is truth to that, but my motivation is more societal status too :)
13:11	moriarty	xmj, it elevates my status if i have arm candy
13:11	xmj	for yourself?
13:11	xmj	ofc
13:12	decimation	asciilifeform: some guy bought a 'salvaged Tesla' and did a teardown of the battery pack: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack
		↖
13:12	assbot	Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
13:12	mircea_popescu	it's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "where's the logs ?" "we don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "so i guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or wot then huh."
13:13	mircea_popescu	so i sit there and it's like... eating grass.
13:13	mircea_popescu	savages.
13:13	moriarty	decimation, well, unfortunately as someone who is partial to the ancap way of looking at things, i don't identify with the reframing of couch-sitters as slaves of the state, i see them as enslaving the state though
13:13	bounce	you don't like grass? so you're not a cow then.
13:13	decimation	lol, does anyone ask them before they decide something?
13:14	mircea_popescu	bounce i guess not.
13:14	mircea_popescu	decimation of course ?
13:14	mircea_popescu	try rezoning a couch potato farm ?
13:14	mircea_popescu	try changing benefits ? try doing anything.
13:15	moriarty	mircea_popescu, you give a little to get a whole lot more :)
13:15	mircea_popescu	the whole theory is broken. there's no "other plane", and there's no "women" as a one thing.
13:16	moriarty	mircea_popescu, all i'm saying is, once you understand women to be a bag of emotions, rather than logical creatures, their motivations, what it takes to motivate them, becomes plain as day
13:16	xmj	couch-sitters? slaves to the states?
13:16	moriarty	mircea_popescu, buying them items in hopes to get in their pants would not be very successful, as xmj attested
13:16	xmj	nah man, that's not how it works, and it s not the reverse either
13:17	mircea_popescu	no. what becomes plain as day is how to interact with the few women nobody can be bothered with, and how to miss out on the value in the set.
13:17	moriarty	mircea_popescu, you have to appeal to their emotional side :) and the flip side of that is, you don't even have to spend a dime
13:17	xmj	those who want to sit in front of a TV all day long instead of doing something might just be better off that way.
13:17	mircea_popescu	this dovetails neatly with your expectation that you have to spend bitdimes to be in the wot.
13:17	mircea_popescu	that's not how wots work.
13:17	moriarty	mircea_popescu, the value in the set may be so economically, but socially? you attain more value by going for the unattainable
13:17	mircea_popescu	there is no "socially"
13:17	moriarty	mircea_popescu, it's the quintessential Veblen goods
13:17	moriarty	:)
13:18	mircea_popescu	mno.
13:19	moriarty	decimation, council houses are a response to voters clamouring for welfare
13:19	mircea_popescu	decimation nice pics
13:19	decimation	moriarty: and the state is more than happy to deliver, in exchange for not rioting
13:19	moriarty	it's one of the pernicious problems of mob rule, it converges to a state that pleases the majority, even if the minority in this case happens to be the ones that make more than half of the GDP and contribute tax-wise as well
13:20	decimation	which makes the state a terrible master
13:21	decimation	it doesn't take much creativity to imagine ways in which you could employ people such that they are neither a burden to civilized society nor have enough energy to riot
13:21	moriarty	decimation, but you've taken a ironic stance there, you can't be enslaved to the state and at the same time hold the state hostage with riot threats
13:21	moriarty	decimation, if you're happy with the status quo enough to not riot, then that's not enslavement of any sort except that of your own volition
13:21	moriarty	;)
13:22	mircea_popescu	decimation it does. how ?
13:22	mircea_popescu	moriarty contradictory is not ironic!
13:22	xmj	decimation: hahahaha
13:22	moriarty	decimation, minimum wage or mandatory employment has the same effect
13:22	xmj	decimation: briiiilliant.
13:22	xmj	decimation: you know what you could do as well?
13:22	decimation	it's not a contradiction
13:22	xmj	you could feed them fast food, and keep them happy with cheap ish beer.
13:22	xmj	not too cheap, they shouldn't be allowed to save too much.
13:23	moriarty	decimation, it is an endless regression to inflation, sticky wages eventually adjusting themselves, and formerly poor people made wealthy through minimum income now poor again rendering minimum income ineffetual
13:23	decimation	a slave (unless chained to the wall) will always have some power to rebel
13:23	moriarty	decimation, long story short, it's back to square one after awhile
13:23	xmj	decimation: do you know "indentured servitude" ?
13:23	decimation	yeah, in the us we have h-1b visas
13:23	moriarty	decimation, and so mininum wage or mandated employment will never work except that politically it's wonderful
13:23	xmj	ahahah
13:23	xmj	H1B, biggest scam ever
13:23	moriarty	decimation, by the time, that happens, it's a different political party
13:24	moriarty	lol that's the ancap bit of me speaking perhaps
13:24	decimation	moriarty: it's true that such a scheme would be unworkable in mass democracy
13:25	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i was just being euphemistic :P
13:25	moriarty	mircea_popescu, i assume ironic humour, rather than any attempt to negate oneself ;)
13:25	decimation	and it's also true that in the modern west, the welfare class enslaves itself
13:25	mircea_popescu	decimation so how ?
13:25	moriarty	decimation, yep
13:26	mircea_popescu	how do you give idiots something to do that hides from reality the fact of their idiocy ?
13:26	mircea_popescu	this is a nonsensical object on par with the "foolproof" engineering item.
13:26	xmj	welfare class enslaves itself?
13:26	xmj	not that much
13:26	decimation	mircea_popescu: you can't, so you put it on display. your job: wash the sidewalk
13:26	xmj	there are actually a few traps setup by The Powers That Be
13:26	mircea_popescu	why would he be doing this ?
13:27	decimation	no work, no eat
13:27	mircea_popescu	does a shitty job of washing sidewalk.
13:27	moriarty	actually socioeconomic experiments are nothing more than alchemy waiting for sciences to solidify itself; in like sense, macro policies are the precursors to BCIs which would be a far more effective method of tailoring welfare to the individual without any of the leakages present today
13:28	decimation	mircea_popescu: then don't eat, if deemed shitty in the subjective opinion of the bureaucrat of the day
13:28	mircea_popescu	so you've rebuilt singapoer,
13:28	mircea_popescu	except they do it properly. social escort.
13:29	decimation	one could do worse I think
13:29	moriarty	xmj, the traps are easily detectable were it not for their inferior intellect
13:29	xmj	hum..
13:29	xmj	no, i mean, they're incentivized to stay down
13:29	moriarty	xmj, but i guess i shouldn't sound so condescending, when i am attempting some candor
13:29	xmj	because by the time you start earning income, you lose more than 100% to the state
13:29	moriarty	xmj, but you won't bite the bait if you had some modicum of intellect
13:29	xmj	in redistribution you lose and texes you pay
13:30	xmj	moriarty: i'm completely retarded, didn't you notice.
13:30	moriarty	xmj, if you can't fend yourself against the traps of the powers that be, how do you hope to avoid buying a lemon when faced with a second-hand car dealer
13:30	moriarty	xmj, what i'm saying is, it's impossible to legislate every aspect of society to make it as idiotproof as possible
13:30	xmj	moriarty: oh i know I can.
13:30	xmj	and don't underestimate street smarts
13:30	xmj	no one trusts used-car dealers
13:31	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: lesswrong << i was de-facto banished there.
13:31	mircea_popescu	how and why ?
13:31	moriarty	xmj, so if you have the street smarts to not trust used-car dealers, i hope you do the same for the government or powers that be
13:31	moriarty	:)
13:31	xmj	well
13:31	decimation	all these models. here's some real economists discussing how inappicable almost all economic models (sets of assumptions) are to reality: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/09/paul_pfleiderer.html (it's a podcast with transcript mircea!)
13:31	assbot	" + soundfiledesc + "
13:31	xmj	hopefully
13:31	xmj	hopefully you also get cash income :3
13:31	decimation	asciilifeform: do you have links? would read
13:32	moriarty	decimation, that's a rather simplistic view
13:32	moriarty	decimation, it's nice if you're not a very curious individual
13:32	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-06-2014#711031
13:32	assbot	Logged on 10-06-2014 02:07:49; asciilifeform: (lw is another reddit clone that makes hn, etc. look sane. inhabited by folks terrified of robo-apocalypse. i was drummed out of lw as a 'future genocidal criminal' for... considering resurrecting doug lenat's 'eurisko.')
13:32	moriarty	decimation, but if you are dissatisfied with such simple conclusion, read that Mandelbrot book :)
13:32	decimation	economists too can be made to wash windows
13:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lol they on to you huh
13:32	moriarty	xmj, hah
13:33	asciilifeform	story time.
13:33	asciilifeform	there was (and is) a fellow by the name of eliezer yudkowsky. (american, oddly enough.) ingenious demented storyteller.
13:33	moriarty	decimation, economic models are much like scientific models, or any models for that matter, they are inapplicable to reality without an overdose of simplifying assumptions to linearise what would otherwise be a higher dimensionality reality
13:34	asciilifeform	he used to be rather into artificial intelligence - but more from the standpoint of advocacy ('we' (TM) must build working super-intelligent machine, so it can save 'us' (TM)) - but that was pre-2001 or so
13:34	xmj	asciilifeform: yeah, lesswrong.com...
13:34	asciilifeform	then he had some sort of nervous break and a bit flipped in his head
13:34	asciilifeform	and he turned into...
13:34	asciilifeform	the equivalent of an anti-nuclear activist - but pre-Fermi.
13:35	xmj	uhm...what
13:35	xmj	his CFAR and MIRI are doing quite well, no?
13:35	moriarty	lesswrong.com typical profile is someone who has fallen between the cracks of society so typically someone without formal education, self-proclaimed didact, home-schooled, etc
13:35	asciilifeform	xmj: the other thing that happened - around the same time - was: he found a sponsor.
13:35	asciilifeform	who put him on a throne, had an 'organization' built
13:35	xmj	isn't that convenient.
13:36	asciilifeform	now mr. y is surrounded by flunkies, and, by some accounts, is fellated (literally) round the clock by harem
13:36	xmj	moriarty: you're forgetting high-iq math/physics/compsci crowd
13:36	moriarty	if i were feeling benevolent, i should actually sponsor some of them for formal education :) but then neuroscience has something to say about how intellect not developed before a certain age would have the door closed on them at some point
13:36	xmj	ahahaha
13:37	decimation	asciilifeform: who is his rich patron?
13:37	xmj	that'd interest me too
13:38	asciilifeform	in order to understand lw, must admit that mr y had talent. i, for instance, used to enjoy his expository writing. until realized that it is 100% recycled philosophy spiced up for 'reddit' crowd.
13:38	xmj	asciilifeform: what do you mean by pre-fermi anti-nuclear activist?
13:38	moriarty	i am into artificial intelligence
13:38	xmj	i've been in #lesswrong for months
13:38	moriarty	at least formally i have worked in the field of AI and have come across lesswrong in my past
13:38	moriarty	i am sincerely impressed by the attempts they have made without formal education
13:38	asciilifeform	attempts at what ?
13:38	moriarty	i honestly believe that under different circumstances, these individuals would have made real progress in society
13:38	moriarty	attempts at understanding AI
13:39	asciilifeform	!up moriarty
13:39	xmj	moriarty: formal education is just paper
13:39	asciilifeform	i'll be impressed when they build something - anything.
13:39	xmj	if you strive for knowledge you can learn /anything/
13:39	moriarty	xmj, sure, but let's not discount formal education also as the path to avoid mistakes made by saner individuals in the past
13:39	decimation	asciilifeform: oh he's one of Thiel's boys
13:40	moriarty	xmj, the informal route is filled with potential pitfalls to make the same mistakes
13:40	moriarty	i admire and despise Thiel all at once
13:40	xmj	you know, i'm all for ungraduating.
13:40	moriarty	i think it was great that PayPal has made that clan of people rich, a lot of good things have come out from the founders of PayPal
13:40	xmj	i've always been better at learning things on my own.
13:41	asciilifeform	good things << which ?
13:41	decimation	ultimately they are all patrons of usg and its idiotic currency meddling
13:41	moriarty	but Thiel's supposition that people should not bother with formal education and instead open up a company under the auspices of his seed funding is rather self-serving in my opinion
13:41	bounce	well, you know. formal education isn't always a panacea either. might just end up in a complete dead-end of "knowledge".
13:41	moriarty	in fact Theil's proposal would fall under xmj's concept of traps by powers that be :)
13:41	moriarty	Thiel even
13:41	bounce	you know, social sciences. contemporary economics. that sort of thing.
13:42	moriarty	xmj, that's commendable
13:42	decimation	asciilifeform: one day I hope to find a modern 'ai researcher' who admits to have tried programming in lisp
13:42	moriarty	xmj, in university you are supposed to learn on your own too
13:42	moriarty	xmj, but freenode is one of those serendipituous occurence that i think is essential to homeschooling
13:43	moriarty	xmj, without a forum of knowledgeable peers or esteemed academics, you would be hopelessly lost, making lots of mistakes, reading all the crap together with the good stuff, and taking longer to self-develop
13:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i can readily see a us religious nut sponsor for that.
13:43	asciilifeform	decimation: you won't. because 'ai winter.' (and you also won't hear many people discuss how such 'winters' are the flip sides of 'summers', bacchanalia of grantsmanship and graft)
13:44	moriarty	the benefit of university is underrated, the constant feedback available ensures you minimise your time to develop your skillset sufficiently and deeply for profitable employment
13:44	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: sponsor for what ?
13:44	bounce	AI cure for gayness?
13:44	decimation	asciilifeform: the universities that moriarty mentions being peopled with the same bureaucrats seeking grants
13:44	moriarty	decimation, heh the modern AI researcher uses any language at his disposal
13:45	moriarty	decimation, when i was studying and eventually doing research in AI, we got to use anything we like
13:45	asciilifeform	moriarty: 'got to' != 'used'
13:45	bounce	moriarty: missing the point though
13:45	moriarty	so i used things like Prolog, Haskell, Java, C, or even Matlab
13:45	decimation	moriarty: didn't you perceive this as a problem, given your previous point about mixing crap with the good?
13:45	asciilifeform	^ not one of which is homoiconic.
13:46	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the guy you mention.
13:46	moriarty	decimation, heh good point
13:46	asciilifeform	the fact that i - ever - have to actually stop and explain word 'homoiconic' is proof that 'getting to' use a lisp is not enough.
13:46	moriarty	decimation, unfortunately whenever money comes into the picture, it tilts the balance of power in the favour of the funder
13:47	moriarty	decimation, and those down the value chain, i.e. the grant writer
13:47	decimation	I don't distinguish much between the welfare recipient and the grant recipient
13:47	moriarty	decimation, and, then those who keep the university running, i.e. the undergraduates
13:47	decimation	the former being generally honest enough to admit to his scam
13:47	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform for shits and giggles i asked if anone knew him. no answer.
13:47	moriarty	decimation, and graduate researchers pretty much sit at the bottom of the food chain
13:47	moriarty	decimation, even below lab technicians
13:47	moriarty	they can pretty much make or break your work, no laughing matter
13:47	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'anyone' where?
13:48	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 27214 @ 0.00003108 = 0.8458 BTC [-] {18}
13:48	moriarty	decimation, heh
13:48	moriarty	decimation, at least the latter is voluntary
13:49	moriarty	decimation, i never saw the point in taxation being mandatory
13:49	mircea_popescu	#lesswrong
13:49	moriarty	but that's just the ancap bit of me speaking
13:49	mircea_popescu	i just handed them their ass too, i suspect either a ban or a wambulance coming
13:49	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol let me see
13:49	asciilifeform	http://lesswrong.com/user/asciilifeform/overview << me derping on their site back when had time/inclination
13:49	assbot	Overview for asciilifeform - Less Wrong
13:50	asciilifeform	i used to be rather into the idea of 'hard ai' before realized that we don't even know how to build a computer.
13:50	assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/32QCYZE.txt )
13:50	decimation	!b 1
13:50	moriarty	asciilifeform, you're forgiven
13:51	bounce	we don't?
13:51	moriarty	asciilifeform, everybody who ventures into AI informally makes that exact same mistake
13:51	moriarty	bounce, i think he means build a brain
13:51	decimation	asciilifeform: in the end it doesn't matter if the gasenwagen is driven by robot/ai or communist bureaucrats
13:51	asciilifeform	moriarty: except that i ventured formally.
13:51	moriarty	asciilifeform, really? interesting
13:52	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i guess ima publish, save myself the effort next time i feel inclined to explore teh ircworld.
13:52	moriarty	asciilifeform, and they didn't inform you that hard AI was a largely abandoned endeavour
13:52	xmj	moriarty: people say that google and peers are bad for you when you really want to learn things..
13:52	xmj	moriarty: ...people say ltos
13:52	moriarty	asciilifeform, it used to be an active area of investigation in the seventies
13:52	asciilifeform	moriarty: born - and died - with the lisp machine.
13:52	asciilifeform	not a coincidence.
13:52	moriarty	xmj, sure, i see your point
13:53	xmj	moriarty: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
13:53	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform why not a coincidence ?
13:53	moriarty	xmj, yep exactly
13:53	xmj	that's how knowledge creation update transmission etc works.
13:53	xmj	has, does, will
13:53	moriarty	xmj, it helps to have a walking encyclopedia who you can tap into
13:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: recall your quip about heart and liver ?
13:53	mircea_popescu	yeah.
13:53	xmj	well you could also develop your memory
13:53	xmj	mnemonics is fun
13:54	mircea_popescu	but im asking, how are they integrated ?
13:54	moriarty	xmj, everybody is at various stages of knowledge, you gain help no matter who you ask along that spectrum, the key distinguishing feature though is rate of absorption
13:54	moriarty	xmj, or rate of dissemination rather
13:54	moriarty	xmj, you get to the point much quicker with someone more experienced, more knowledgeable
13:54	moriarty	xmj, and it's hard to get such people lurking on the internet :) not impossible, but rare
13:54	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the final doom of smbx corp. was sealed by 'ai winter.' in turn, the demise of the lm ensured that there would be no 'spring' - because carrying on the work in a non-homoiconic language is much like attempting algebra with roman digits.
13:54	bounce	they'd rather hear themselves pontificate?
13:54	xmj	you have no idea lol
13:55	asciilifeform	(^ above is a terrible oversimplification. lm was not simply about language, but the entire interface.)
13:55	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform seems a weak reason tbh. i mean, there are good lisp implementations today, or not ?
13:55	asciilifeform	nope.
13:55	mircea_popescu	wh ythe sbx machine specifically ?
13:55	moriarty	asciilifeform, where did you attend previously?
13:56	moriarty	i recognise some AI practitioners on here
13:56	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: to understand, it is necessary to see it. e.g., http://www.loper-os.org/?p=932
13:56	assbot	Loper OS » Kalman Reti, the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines.
13:56	mircea_popescu	so the idea is, the tool required (os/stack/machine) has no industrial utility and without convincing the industry it needs ai to sponsor the thing, there's never going to be either ?
13:56	asciilifeform	moriarty: don't misunderstand, i was never a professional academic.
13:56	moriarty	asciilifeform, fair enough, still if you've formally undertaken AI as a major, that's something
13:56	moriarty	asciilifeform, which university?
13:57	asciilifeform	moriarty: no. went to uni, ordinary 'cs', but vomited from 'ai' courses.
13:57	moriarty	i see copumpkin on here, he's also into AI :)
13:57	moriarty	asciilifeform, nice
13:58	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: had industrial utility (one of largest customers - 'american express') - but - smbx spent $maxint on r&d, relied on usg to pay for this.
13:58	bounce	you're saying hard AI needs hardware with specific lisp support?
13:58	mircea_popescu	how much did they actually spend ?
13:58	decimation	(a common model for technical companies with any defense contracts)
13:59	mircea_popescu	bounce it is a strange argument on the face, but perhaps the idea is such a hard problem can only be conveniently breached at this angle. much like satellites aren't launched from tiera del fuego
13:59	moriarty	hah
13:59	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the death of smbx corp. is almost an entire field of scholarship..
13:59	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform topmost figure ? 1mn ? 1bn ?
13:59	asciilifeform	bn is close.
14:00	asciilifeform	one famous treatise on subject: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Symbolics.pdf
14:00	moriarty	what are the advantages of lisp over haskell for instance?
14:00	mircea_popescu	so about 1/7000 the recent involvement in the middle east ?
14:00	moriarty	with respect to AI
14:00	mircea_popescu	aww.
14:00	bounce	what's the cost of cooking up a chip or two these days?
14:00	asciilifeform	moriarty: it isn't merely about lisps.
14:01		Bet created: "Alibaba shares above 115 before November 25th" http://bitbet.us/bet/1048/
14:01	moriarty	asciilifeform, so functional and logical languages, cool
14:01	asciilifeform	moriarty: rather, it is about the kind of interaction with the machine that it makes possible.
14:01	*	bounce recalls chuck moore cobbling up his own FORTH chips
14:01	asciilifeform	functional << nope. the non-homoiconic languages - do not make it possible.
14:02	moriarty	heh fair enough
14:02	moriarty	Prolog is homoiconic so i see your point
14:03	asciilifeform	not really, no.
14:03	moriarty	Haskell certainly lacks in that department though it makes up for it with purity, monads
14:04	asciilifeform	haskell is an american chumpatronic masterpiece.
14:04	bounce	what, type theory?
14:04	asciilifeform	yes.
14:05	asciilifeform	pseudo-mathematics, all of it.
14:05	moriarty	Prolog is not homoiconic?
14:05	moriarty	:)
14:05	asciilifeform	not s-expression - not homoiconic.
14:06	asciilifeform	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 << by popular demand of readers, explanation of what is the scam, and why.
14:06	assbot	Loper OS » Of Decaying Urbits.
14:07	asciilifeform	http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-navrozov-moments.html << linked from above, mr mold's explanation (written presumably before the chumpatron re-swallowed him, this time - for good.)
		↖
14:07	assbot	Unqualified Reservations: My Navrozov moments
14:08	asciilifeform	bounce: Forth is an example of 'lisp' re-invented by an outsider. there is another example - 'refal'. (soviet)
14:09	asciilifeform	both of these are quite their own animals, and most users would make a face if you called it 'a lisp' - but they are as much 'a lisp' as newton and leibniz both had the 'calculus.'
14:09	moriarty	you can do s-expressions in Prolog, asciilifeform
14:09	asciilifeform	'can' != SOP.
14:09	asciilifeform	(what's a lisp? my treatment of subject - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 )
14:09	assbot	Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine
14:09	asciilifeform	!up moriarty
14:10	moriarty	asciilifeform, this is devolving into an advocacy debate :)
14:10	moriarty	i'm not for Prolog, so it doesn't matter to me
14:10	Guest17444	Hmmm
14:10	moriarty	i've used Lisp and like it as well
14:10	*	asciilifeform has been writing an entire blog on the subject, since '07, and doesn't see the need to continue pasting it here...
14:11	TheNewDeal	There we go
14:11	asciilifeform	moriarty - lisp on x86 pc is 'lisp' in much the same way 'holy roman empire' is the roman empire.
14:12	moriarty	asciilifeform, sure, Prolog works the same way too :)
14:12	asciilifeform	!up daybyter
14:12	moriarty	but don't let me get your feathers ruffled :P
14:12	moriarty	hehe
14:12	daybyter	Thanks!
14:12	moriarty	i quite enjoyed and loathed functional programming whether it was in Lisp/Prolog etc
14:13	moriarty	the simplicity of your code, balanced against the length of time it took you to write it
14:13	daybyter	Are you using lisp/prolog for trading stuff?
14:13	nubbins`	sweet, fresh OS X install and my keys survived the round trip
14:13	moriarty	and i must say that the beauty of functional languages is that you get to attain that rare accomplishment of writing a bug-free code in the first round
14:13	*	nubbins` breathes small sighof relief
14:14	moriarty	daybyter, yes i have tried doing so
14:14	moriarty	just for fun because i was bored out of my mind
14:14	daybyter	I tried drools.
14:14	daybyter	I think I could use jscheme, too.
14:16	moriarty	daybyter, unfortunately Lisp or Prolog is not high level enough for financial trading
14:16	moriarty	daybyter, so what we ended up doing was using proprietary languages that allow us to atomically describe market conditions with ease
14:17	asciilifeform	moriarty: in point of fact, any serious industrial use of a lisp proceeds by first creating just such a language for the system in question, and then programming in it.
14:17	daybyter	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130966.0
14:17	assbot	Formal definition of a trading language
14:17	asciilifeform	moriarty: when you pay $1m for a 'q' license, etc. you are buying out of having to carry out this labour.
14:17	decimation	(he used the u so you would understand)
14:17	moriarty	asciilifeform, that makes perfect sense
14:18	moriarty	decimation, hah
14:18	moriarty	asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work
14:19	moriarty	asciilifeform, all the things one takes for granted, the support from community at large is non-existent in a corporate setting :) so what was trivial in popular languages had to be polished up, e.g. good documentation and example codes
14:20	asciilifeform	moriarty: relevant: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3663
14:20	assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
14:20	asciilifeform	(thread)
14:21	asciilifeform	moriarty: the 'support of the community' - that is, mainstream 'programmer culture' - is pure intellectual poison. the farther from it - the better.
14:21	moriarty	daybyter, interesting, i was thinking of perhaps less specific but at the same time more atomic than simple moving averages
14:22	daybyter	I actually never trading ema crossing, or so.
14:22	moriarty	daybyter, i'm thinking in terms of interest rates, manufacturing activity, GDP delta, CPI, retail sales, etc
14:22	moriarty	daybyter, and of course i assume a full-fledged basic mathematical suite to support doing whatever i want to the model
14:22	daybyter	seems, like you are far ahead...
14:23	daybyter	I'm working on simple arb stuff and such.
14:23	daybyter	I want to create a framework to build on.
14:24	*	asciilifeform always wonders, on first meeting a trading bot enthusiast, whether he considers basic game theory and contemplates counterpoint rape-bot answers to his strategies.
14:24	daybyter	http://i.imgur.com/kjl1VC2.png
14:25	asciilifeform	if 'buy cheap, sell dear' is state-of-the-art, then yes, anyone can write bot.
14:26	xmj	that's arbitrage to you
14:26	xmj	you can also sell dear, buy cheap if you're into shortselling :)
14:26	bounce	to some snazzy beasty boys tune
14:26	moriarty	asciilifeform, i see the points made there, make it high level enough that you don't need to get bogged down by the side-work in the midst of pursuing your main objectives
14:26	asciilifeform	xmj: more fun - ferret out simplistic bots and rape them.
14:26	moriarty	asciilifeform, and couldn't agree with it more :)
14:27	xmj	asciilifeform: meh, i prefer gaming bigger systems
14:27	moriarty	asciilifeform, a lot of the bugs arise typically not from the main objectives by the side-work in getting simple I/O right, etc, a lot of which can really be templated
14:27	asciilifeform	xmj: in this particular space, the 'bigger system' often consists of a horde of idiots operating small systems.
14:28	xmj	we call it 'society'
14:28	bounce	apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not?
14:29	moriarty	lol bounce
14:29	asciilifeform	!s chumpatron
14:29	assbot	116 results for 'chumpatron' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=chumpatron
14:29	moriarty	bounce, this calls for a good ol' http://xkcd.com/610/
14:29	assbot	xkcd: Sheeple
14:32	bounce	lose the smug arrogance and you know what to look for to improve yourself
14:32	asciilifeform	too often 'lose the smug arrogance' is when pig says to man 'you think you're too good to eat shit with us, you bugger'
14:33	asciilifeform	of course, this can end in several distinct ways.
14:33	asciilifeform	one being - this - http://imgur.com/cHWju2Y
14:33	assbot	Pigsty. - Imgur
14:33	bounce	hmno. you're mistaking your peers keeping you down with the humility needed to climb up by yourself
14:34	moriarty	heh asciilifeform brought up a good point on trading though
14:34	moriarty	it's all about grasping the mindset of the mainstream, and then harvesting that to your advantage
14:35	moriarty	if you have a good perception of what will be the populist stance, then you can make a trading move to optimise your profits in response
14:35	asciilifeform	moriarty: fundamentally broken model here though
14:35	moriarty	that's what i did when i tried to profit off bitcoin
14:35	moriarty	asciilifeform, how's that?
14:35	asciilifeform	there is no 'populist stance', there is a set of finite automata
14:36	asciilifeform	e.g., a crowd of simple 'visual basic' bots each playing arbitrage and programmed with a 'stop-loss' threshold
14:36	moriarty	well, emergence
14:36	moriarty	individual automatons act in ways that coherently reinforce into a distinct pattern
14:37	moriarty	think crowd behaviour as they exit a museum
14:37	moriarty	they may amble along seemingly individualistic paths but the feedback arising from interaction with other criss-crossing of paths result in a very predictable wave
14:37	moriarty	same it is with anything else, even in the markets
14:38	moriarty	you may act individually, but your response to feedback from the market constraints that individuality, and as a whole, the market acts very mechanistically, well, if you can pin it down of course
14:39	moriarty	the constraints of the market is at its most basic, everybody is driven by greed and fear
14:40	moriarty	without any training, the basic market participant buys at the high and sells at the low, despite being cognisant of the mantra to the contrary
14:40	asciilifeform	!up moriarty
14:40	moriarty	greed drives the buys at the highs
14:40	moriarty	fear drives the sells at the lows
14:41	moriarty	we know we shouldn't do it, but we do it anyway :) and if you can partition the market into the emotional plays, and the bot plays, you can then expect to tailor your response accordingly
14:41	moriarty	you can get some sort of clue based on the amount of money in the system, and the flow rate
14:41	moriarty	institutional flows are of magnitudes higher, for instance
14:41	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu, others : http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3728 << smbx for the impatient.
14:41	assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
14:42	asciilifeform	(entire thread recommended)
14:42	moriarty	heh
14:43	moriarty	that's the fallacy of homeschooling
14:43	moriarty	whenever someone makes a comment like last programming language, it's a giveaway sign they have no formal education in CS
14:43	asciilifeform	(re: smbx) must say that some things absolutely must be experienced to be understood. i went to considerable lengths to actually obtain the machine before i dared to write about it at any great length.
14:44	moriarty	the very basics of comparative languages as one of the electives or course modules in CS will inform anyone that the history of language development was in response to advances in hardware, but at the same time, paradigms from ages before still come into play today at various points in the hardware spectrum, if no longer on your desktop, then at least on your mobile devices which are
14:44	moriarty	still constrained
14:45	moriarty	no one-size-fits-all solution, last language, pfft
14:45	moriarty	:P
14:45	bounce	so make a new fancy box that does lisp from the ground up.
14:46	moriarty	hah :)
14:46	asciilifeform	moriarty: all of these devices are quite the same from the standpoint of, e.g., 1970s hardware architect (in whose time there were actually multiple cpu paradigms in use)
14:47	moriarty	asciilifeform, i'm surprised Clojure is still popular
14:47	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/ << if anyone feels like arguing the ethics/moral question, i'm all ears.
14:47	assbot	The irc world is a big but very flat place. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
14:47	moriarty	for me, it died before it even became mainstream
14:47	mircea_popescu	this is where i
14:47	mircea_popescu	wil redirect anyone trying to do so in the future.
14:50	moriarty	asciilifeform, sure, and then you get the philosophical stances behind strong vs weak typing, how many passes would you like your compilation to occur, how about parallelism for that matter, etc
14:50	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: It’s a one time universal library card << yes, yes it is.
14:51	*	asciilifeform plugs in 'read all books in the world for free' machine to recharge.
14:52	asciilifeform	moriarty: in point of fact, given correct hardware design ('dataflow' machine) neither compilers nor 'parallelism' as conventionally understood - are necessary concepts at all.
14:53	mircea_popescu	<moriarty> asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work << that'd explain why you so drastically overestimate the "conversation" going on between empty barrels rolling downhill.
14:53	mircea_popescu	aka academics.
14:53	moriarty	mircea_popescu, lol
14:53	asciilifeform	academic used to be an actual animal, extinct around same time as 'passenger pigeon'
14:54	asciilifeform	possibly a few survivors (in soviet captivity) but that was it.
14:54	moriarty	mircea_popescu, yeah i don't care too much for academia, when i've realised the amount of crap coming from most institutions
14:54	mircea_popescu	i suspect the azns may have some extant
14:54	asciilifeform	confucian version is a capon.
14:54	asciilifeform	animal with glands cut out - not the same.
14:55	moriarty	mircea_popescu, it doesn't help that the metrics of a good academic is the number of publications, one that seems to be robust in the face of peer review, but take a peek behind the curtain only to unveil the editorial committee having ties to the same university, sigh
14:55	mircea_popescu	bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not? << this is such nonsense. why would you care ?
14:56	mircea_popescu	moriarty it's a problem of dynamic equilibrium. peer review worked before weight was put on it.
14:56	mircea_popescu	the average idiot tasked with "making policy" and "framework" for absolutely no reason doesn't get this,
14:56	mircea_popescu	proceeds to act as if the static image he perceived, more or less blurry, is made out of diamond.
14:57	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not the same, yes. alive, also yes.
14:57	mircea_popescu	recall your argument re the statist agriculture endgame ?
14:58	asciilifeform	sure
14:58	mircea_popescu	the chinese got there, but with thinking. their thinkers can't reproduce w/o the state. it proved ruinous but it is not yet abandoned.
14:59	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2014#761526
14:59	assbot	Logged on 19-07-2014 03:41:36; asciilifeform: even ancient china, apparently, had 'cram schools.' (see miyazaki, 'china's examination hell' - neat little monograph on the subject)
14:59	asciilifeform	^ great little book
15:00	asciilifeform	chinese system did then - and afaik, still does - select, with mind-boggling efficiency, for the uncreative 'human computer' type.
15:00	moriarty	agreed, mircea_popescu
15:01	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, it doesn't reproduce :)
15:02	chetty	well in china if you are not the robot type you jump out the window, not reproduce
15:02	moriarty	peer review would work if it was more well-thought out like a jury system
15:02	moriarty	but i guess once a system is put in place, resistance would act against any attempts to better the status quo
15:02	mircea_popescu	moriarty it would work as a wot system, and as that only.
15:03	mircea_popescu	and resistance will be washed away on the simple grounds that well... fiat world is going to africa anyway.
15:03	moriarty	heh
15:04	moriarty	africa is busy trying to make the banks more accessible to the citizen on the street
15:04	moriarty	giving away of free bank accounts, mobile telebanking etc
15:05	asciilifeform	moriarty: bezzle retrofit. snore.
15:05	*	chetty remembers when US banks gave prizes for opening accounts
15:05	asciilifeform	chetty: it's in fashion agai.
15:05	asciilifeform	n
15:06	jurov	http://lesswrong.com/lw/10g/lets_reimplement_eurisko/ lol asciilifeform this is a gem
15:06	assbot	Let's reimplement EURISKO! - Less Wrong
15:06	moriarty	in our attempt to fathom why africa has such a different development trail, we have come up with some interesting cause models, from the bias introduced by the Mercator projection, to the irrelevancy of subdividing world population based on continental shelves
15:07	jurov	Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky This is a road that does not lead to Friendly AI, only to AGI. I doubt this has anything to do with Lenat's motives - but I'm glad the source code isn't published and I don't think you'd be doing a service to the human species by trying to reimplement it.
15:07	jurov	they banned you cauz of this? huehuehue
15:07	mircea_popescu	moriarty there's nothing to fathom. africa is the craddle of civilisation. better people leave, so they left.
15:07	xmj	what
15:07	xmj	moriarty: where'd you get that one from
15:07	mircea_popescu	what's left is the multi-millenial selected scum of humanity.
15:07	asciilifeform	jurov: not formally banned, no. but 'persona non grata'
15:07	penguirker	New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/
15:07	*	asciilifeform actually FOIA'd all the available lenat material and still has thick binder of mildly interesting goodies
15:07	moriarty	xmj, get what from?
15:08	moriarty	xmj, oh, the cause models
15:08	xmj	'in our attempt..' was a quote right?
15:08	moriarty	xmj, no, i wrote that
15:08	moriarty	xmj, some have posited that the reason why Africa received much less development is because of the way our map projections undermine the true size of Africa
15:09	*	xmj facepalms
15:09	mircea_popescu	possibly one of the more stupid things to come out of academia.
15:09	xmj	damn white privilege putting maps out in projections that disfavor blacks
15:10	asciilifeform	jurov: 'friendly' means something very particular to these folks. it means, developed under the dictatorial control of mr. y and his clique of fellators, in accordance with various 'rules' stated in his (often contradictory) blatherings.
15:10	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so basically they aspire to b-a-hood ?
15:10	moriarty	lol xmj
15:10	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: approximately.
15:10	asciilifeform	!up moriarty
15:11	mircea_popescu	such a crime.
15:11	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: except that they subscribe to every dogma of present-day usg (incl. 'climate science', 'equality', 'democracy') and so maintain various pretenses.
15:12	mircea_popescu	well, i didn't mean b-a-hood in the "it's sensible and it works" sense, i mearly meant it in the "rule the wrold" sense.
15:12	xmj	moriarty: now comes your neoreactionary and inquires "if western europeans built such beautiful institutions such as states that actually hold together over centuries, industries, absolute nuclear family that favors outbreeding, and an army that could literally dominate the entire world..."
15:12	xmj	moriarty: "why didn't they?"
15:12	asciilifeform	in that sense - yes. but with the usg-like mask of 'we will neuter you for your own good'
15:13	mircea_popescu	"ETA: How concerned should we be that DARPA is going full steam ahead for strong AI? Perhaps not very much, given the failure of at least two of their projects along these lines"
15:13	moriarty	xmj, lol
15:13	mircea_popescu	heh. full steam ? hardly.
15:13	xmj	moriarty: you cannot receive development, you don't deserve development, you develop and then you've earned it.
15:13	mircea_popescu	hey, he has a point for once,.
15:13	xmj	moriarty: i wanted to look up the map of the neoreactionary blogosphere for you, sec
15:14	xmj	moriarty: (not themap but interesting_ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/12/1178414/-Racism-has-a-new-name-HBD
15:14	assbot	Racism has a new name: HBD
15:15	asciilifeform	the sheer density of epicycles the lw types lay on and on, to keep various dogma ('equality', etc) going - is something to behold.
15:15	xmj	equality and equalitarianism must die.
15:16	mircea_popescu	lw ?
15:16	asciilifeform	'less-wrong'
15:16	mircea_popescu	ah.
15:16	xmj	moriarty: http://akarlin.com/2013/04/mapping-the-dark-enlightenment/
15:16	assbot	Mapping The Dark Enlightenment
15:17	*	asciilifeform used to read nearly all of these ^ people - today, none.
15:17	asciilifeform	because - bored.
15:17	moriarty	xmj, lol "thinking housewife"
15:17	moriarty	that made me chuckle
15:17	decimation	asciilifeform: did you post those lenat papers somewhere? I have a reasonably fast digitizer if you lack
15:18	asciilifeform	decimation: may have posted, but i forget where and when
15:18	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform what's agi supposed to be again ?
15:18	xmj	there's lots of good memes
15:18	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'artificial general intelligence' in their parlance.
15:18	mircea_popescu	sooo... ?
15:18	mircea_popescu	o, that's bad because it could mp them out of existence ?
15:18	xmj	http://habitableworlds.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/darkenlightenment2.png
15:19	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: they have an elaborate narrative where 'intelligence' can take on the role of uncontrolled fissile chain reaction (of the kind that was thought to be possible pre-1945)
15:19	xmj	hrm, still not the right one
15:19	xmj	i'm missing vdare on this picture
15:19	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform seems pretty banal. what else would it do.
15:20	xmj	http://www.propertarianism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/darkenlightenment1.png << there we go.
15:20	mircea_popescu	the rich get richer ; the smart get smarter ** 2;
15:20	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: if you were to listen to mr. y, mis-programmed 'agi' is likely to, e.g., disassemble the known universe into constituent atoms to build a gigantic live mendeleev table. because it likes to sort things. or the like...
15:20	moriarty	heh
15:21	mircea_popescu	now that's nonsense.
15:21	moriarty	Yudkowsky is reason enough why formal education makes all the difference in the world
15:21	mircea_popescu	not likely, but if it decided to... who is yudjowsky to say no.
15:21	xmj	how so?
15:21	mircea_popescu	kinda like the position of the girl being propositioned. if hte guy is good enough, not her place to have an opinion, not really.
15:21	xmj	his HPMOR series is awesome
15:21	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: well, he'd like to have a say in whether anyone gets to research.
15:21	xmj	as to the rest, no idea
15:22	mircea_popescu	lol, sounds like a winner.
15:22	asciilifeform	by alliance with usg, on one front, and subterfuge / 'kool aid dosing' subversion of likely participants - on other front.
15:22	decimation	yeah I guess there's this fantasy that he can personally steer research toward non-angry-ai-god ai
15:23	moriarty	did he watch too much AI doomsday movies?
15:23	asciilifeform	'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks
15:23	moriarty	maybe i should do some good with my bitcoin winnings, and put some of those intelligent folks through school
15:24	asciilifeform	example of mr y and his thought process - http://lesswrong.com/lw/y3/value_is_fragile
15:24	assbot	Value is Fragile - Less Wrong
15:24	asciilifeform	there's ~1000+ of these, i won't link to them all, not everyone is a zoologist of crackpots
15:24	decimation	I suspect few recognize the irony of turning away from traditional worship of Jahweh to worship some hobo
15:24	mircea_popescu	<asciilifeform> 'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks << this is a major problem in search for a solution.
15:25	mircea_popescu	there's so many various different examples of it...
15:25	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: lw was itself, for a time, a 'solution' to reddit and hnews
15:25	asciilifeform	(mass exodus)
15:25	decimation	in the middle ages, the local barons would think of themselves as personally responsible to nurture the talent of the local intelligent young boys
15:25	mircea_popescu	o hey, trilema is not on the "dark enlightenment" map w/e that is. i guess im cool like that!
15:25	mircea_popescu	decimation orly ?
15:25	asciilifeform	decimation: ^ the only organized approach known to work
15:26	asciilifeform	except not middle ages, but far later
15:26	mircea_popescu	do you mean like 5 people in the renaiisant italy or what.
15:27	decimation	"Gauss's intellectual abilities attracted the attention of the Duke of Brunswick,[2] who sent him to the Collegium Carolinum (now Braunschweig University of Technology), which he attended from 1792 to 1795, and to the University of Göttingen from 1795 to 1798. "
15:27	decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Friedrich_Gauss
15:27	assbot	Carl Friedrich Gauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:27	mircea_popescu	decimation when do you think the middle ages are ?!
15:28	mircea_popescu	traditionally it's the fall of rome to the discovery of america.
15:28	moriarty	asciilifeform, there is some truth to that article
15:28	decimation	heh anything before 1950
15:28	mircea_popescu	lol ok.
15:28	mircea_popescu	you'll confuse people who study history, it's a term of art
15:28	decimation	I guess 'middle ages' was poorly worded
15:28	xmj	huh
15:28	decimation	I should have said "post Renaissance"
15:28	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the man is, approximately, usa and colonies.
15:28	asciilifeform	*map
15:29	mircea_popescu	greeks, roman republic, roman empire, middle ages, renaissance, industrial revolution, modernity, post modernity
15:29	asciilifeform	if you made actual map - i dare say most of it would be painted soviet, chinese, hell knows who else
15:29	xmj	decimation: see, democracy doesn't work that way.
15:29	decimation	bully for democracy
15:29	asciilifeform	perhaps when the lid is taken off, e.g., india - we find thought there
15:29	mircea_popescu	~3000, ~300, 0, 1500, 1700, 1850, 1950
15:29	xmj	with democracy you (as temporary ruler) have no incentive to make your young boys/girls look good.
15:30	Apocalyptic	the only incentive is to get reelected yes
15:30	decimation	mircea_popescu: sounds legit, I'll try to adopt that nomenclature
15:30	asciilifeform	xmj: overwhelming incentive to back-door 'merit' systems to promote blood relations:
15:30	mircea_popescu	decimation cheap and easy hack.
15:30	asciilifeform	!s merit wash
15:30	assbot	9 results for 'merit wash' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=merit+wash
15:31	decimation	yeah in 'modern' times the common solution was to send the kids off to 'elite' boarding schools and so forth
15:32	moriarty	so is anyone working here by any chance?
15:32	moriarty	or are everyone here avid bitcoin miners/traders full-time?
15:32	decimation	I work, to eat
15:32	moriarty	heh :)
15:32	*	asciilifeform works several jobs
15:33	decimation	I'm only a zek
15:33	mircea_popescu	moriarty what do you mean working here.
15:33	moriarty	mircea_popescu, self-employed, entrepreneur, corporate cog, etc
15:33	mircea_popescu	oh.
15:34	mircea_popescu	decimation really it started during the renaissance, as an attempt to bite the fruit of life fully.
15:34	asciilifeform	usually the question presumes certain customary rituals
15:34	moriarty	mircea_popescu, are you a fan of Dan-Mircea Popescu?
15:34	mircea_popescu	moriarty just some random twerp, no relevancy no relation.
15:35	decimation	mircea_popescu: you mean educatin' the local youths?
15:35	mircea_popescu	decimation yes.
15:35	mircea_popescu	in a sense, the renaissance was the golden age of us libtardism.
15:35	decimation	asciilifeform: do you write lisp in exchange for bezzlars?
15:35	mircea_popescu	back then princesses went into the hovels to rescue genius.
15:35	asciilifeform	decimation: nope. but i do solve problems for bezzlars
15:35	mircea_popescu	the current libtards are really just trying to do a sort of "being cinderella" except a little deeper than disney
15:36	asciilifeform	decimation: and it sometimes - when absolutely cannot be avoided - requires writing programs.
15:36	moriarty	asciilifeform, lol
15:36	mircea_popescu	by now it's a good three centuries plus a world explored past its sell by date
15:36	moriarty	asciilifeform, you make it sound like you dislike programming
15:36	moriarty	pshaw
15:36	decimation	I think it has been mooted here that the reason why the early (1800's) us worked for awhile is because of the memories of law&order beaten into the parents & grandparents of those living here
15:37	moriarty	!up daybyter
15:37	moriarty	awh :) daybyter wanted to say something on the main
15:37	*	asciilifeform in fact dislikes programming
15:37	decimation	!up daybyter
15:37	moriarty	asciilifeform, yeah i think nobody likes coding for the sake of coding
15:37	decimation	asciilifeform: yeah reading your blog has removed the romance of programming for me
15:38	moriarty	most people i know who like coding actually mistake their liking for solving puzzles, for liking coding
15:38	decimation	when I was younger, I wanted to explore the infinite potential
15:38	mircea_popescu	decimation the 1800s worked because at the time europe was mismanaging human resources, and so you could actually get free value by just taking its rejects. then early 1900s worked because the whole country obeyed its betters, so carnegie, rockefeller et co could create a monopoly on the world.
15:38	mircea_popescu	once that died, the country died.
15:39	decimation	yeah that died with wwi, wilson and fdr
15:39	decimation	and the mass suicide of europe
15:39	mircea_popescu	it got a lease on life once eu once again decided to mismanaged, ]
15:39	mircea_popescu	and bombed itself into chad in ww2
15:39	mircea_popescu	but that's also running out.
15:40	moriarty	didn't the 1800s also work because EU projected its dominance globally through colonialism?
15:40	mircea_popescu	left to stand on its own, buffett's "immense potential" will die under the paws of some young lion
15:40	mircea_popescu	whether that young lion is mp or not.
15:41	decimation	I suspect the American Caesar walks the earth somewhere
15:41	mircea_popescu	i'll bet you he doesn't.
15:41	decimation	in the sense that the dying country will split rather than come under stronger central rule?
15:41	mircea_popescu	in the sense that a boring place can not have interesting people.
15:42	mircea_popescu	this is like saying kentucky has a hemingway
15:42	mircea_popescu	orly.
15:42	decimation	heh. he did spend most of his life adventuring among the gauls
15:42	mircea_popescu	but as such he exists because new york, not because lincoln, nebraska.
15:43	mircea_popescu	the american caesar, if he exists, will caesarize in chile or w/e.
15:44	decimation	this is an illusion to some extant, because new york/coastal cities suck the intelligent youth from flyover country
15:44	mircea_popescu	well, now the whole us is flyover country.
15:44	decimation	when usd is no longer king, new york sudden finds itself ... lacking value
15:44		Bet placed: 17 BTC for No on "1BTC >= $10,000 USD" http://bitbet.us/bet/635/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 830.28919187 BTC. Current weight: 16,739.
15:44	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform wants to escape it. why ? and how is his desire different from young peasant kid in village in russia cca 1814
15:45	mircea_popescu	or housewife in midwest in 1964 ?
15:45	mircea_popescu	"it sucks at home". course it does. cause boring place with boring people.
15:45	decimation	or the german farmer circa 1850
15:45	mircea_popescu	it's not even a matter of whether social justice and pc and the rest of the crap is right or wrong
15:45	mircea_popescu	for all anyone cares, the ideas of midwest people re cattle and rain are right.
15:46	mircea_popescu	just nobody wanted to sit there and discuss that.
15:46	decimation	boredom is a powerful motivator
15:47	mircea_popescu	quite. and intellectually dead places go beddy-bye whether they agree they're intellectually dead or not.
15:48	decimation	this is one of the 'safety valves' of mass-democracy (like in scotland)
15:48	decimation	the illusion of a mysterious outcome keeps the people invested
15:48	mircea_popescu	not sure how long that lasts, and it selects negatively.
15:49	mircea_popescu	the ones it keeps you didn't want. much like africa forever, much like renaissance europe ec.
15:49	asciilifeform	decimation: 'valve' << except for the problem that the defeated are left alive, to stink loudly and plan a comeback
15:49	decimation	which is why victory is so terrible for the triumphant empire
15:50	mircea_popescu	i really was expecting independence
15:50	decimation	independence would have been the more amusing outcome, for sure
15:51	decimation	It would be fun to watch an english-speaking enclave go full libtard
15:51	asciilifeform	independence << that is only a permitted outcome when the 'orcs' vote.
15:51	mircea_popescu	i still dunno wtf they did to make such a wide margin happen.
15:51	decimation	They should have allowed infants to vote
15:51	mircea_popescu	or maybe i don't well understand the structures of incentive, not living there
15:51	mircea_popescu	but why would anyone want in the uk ?!
15:52	mircea_popescu	it's like wanting to be part of puerto rico
15:52	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: unless i'm misinformed, scotland runs deep in the red.
15:52	mircea_popescu	so ?
15:52	asciilifeform	snip it off - get a 'greece'.
15:52	decimation	I suspect a big voting bloc were welfare recipients who feared the sudden lack of welfare bezzlars
15:52	mircea_popescu	decimation but they got the oil
15:52	mircea_popescu	so they can borrow anew
15:52	mircea_popescu	so... MORE welfare.
15:52	mircea_popescu	not less
15:52	decimation	that's a good point
15:53	decimation	and welfare states work much better when the population is smaller
15:53	decimation	ie kuwait
15:53	mircea_popescu	quite.
15:53	mircea_popescu	plus, russia'd have loved to sponsor them
15:53	mircea_popescu	which is why i expected landslide independence rly.
15:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: ^ precisely why this outcome wasn't on the menu.
15:53	mircea_popescu	seemed to me putin's counter to the ukraine. fuck with us, lose the uk sorta deal.
15:54	decimation	russia would love to shower scotland with bezzlars so he could use them as a wedge to split the eu
15:54	mircea_popescu	imagine, russian nuke subs in glasgow.
15:54	mircea_popescu	while england's own "fleet", w/e it is lol... do they still have it btw ?
15:54	mircea_popescu	1 1/2 subs
15:54	mircea_popescu	desperate for dresden passage
15:54	decimation	yeah they still have a handful of nuke subs
15:54	mircea_popescu	hardly a handful im sure
15:55	asciilifeform	perhaps ru subs are already in glasgow. without having to also keep scots as pets.
15:55	decimation	I think they recently retired their 'aircraft carrier'
15:55	decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Invincible_%28R05%29
15:55	assbot	HMS Invincible (R05) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:56	bounce	!up moriarty
15:56	moriarty	so i bet on scotland outcome
15:56	moriarty	and came out $250k richer
15:56	moriarty	life has been good to me
15:57	mircea_popescu	1/4 mn ?!
15:57	moriarty	yep
15:57	mircea_popescu	where the hell did you bet that
15:57	moriarty	william hill
15:58	mircea_popescu	hey, wd.
15:58	mircea_popescu	what were the ods ?
15:58	moriarty	1/4
15:58	decimation	reading the history of the falklands war demonstrates how threadbare the uk military really is
15:58	moriarty	thanks, it's a nice outcome after months of boring market action
15:59	moriarty	the only country in the world with serious military gear is the US
15:59	bounce	there's russia still
15:59	moriarty	and as of this moment, they are being led by a pussyfoot for a president
15:59	bounce	oh and china
15:59	moriarty	lol china
15:59	mircea_popescu	no. china.
15:59	mircea_popescu	the us is negligible by comparison.
15:59	moriarty	china has to deceive russia into thinking it is using some old aircraft carrier as museum showpiece
16:00	moriarty	just so it can get its hands on it
16:00	mircea_popescu	you can tell this by the very good predictor that when china told the us to get fucked, the us secretary of state promised to carefully avoid misunderstandings in the future
16:00	mircea_popescu	in the most humble display of abjection imaginable.
16:00	moriarty	china has economic might not military clout
16:00	mircea_popescu	you are ill informed.
16:00	bounce	if china cared enough it could zerg rush just about anyone. plus their gear is getting better -- best stolen from anywhere.
16:01	moriarty	lol
16:01	mircea_popescu	much better than that, even.
16:01	mircea_popescu	90s was "better - stolen"
16:01	mircea_popescu	today, forget it.
16:01	moriarty	china's military hardware is up for speculation
16:01	moriarty	until the day it actually uses it, we can argue to no end
16:02	moriarty	for now, their leadership is even more pussyfooted than obama
16:02	mircea_popescu	or we could read secret dispatches, check out how the various actors behave around it, who knows, even go to a military expo.
16:02	mircea_popescu	that's never changing. china is a shitty agressor.
16:02	decimation	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck << it took 11 refueling planes for one bomber to bomb stanley field in the falklands
16:02	assbot	Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
16:02	moriarty	its aggressions are all economical so far
16:02	bounce	sure. but you'll note that when the us started to use all those beltway bandit toys they broke in droves and could be pwned by IEDs
16:03	moriarty	"do this or we won't sell you cheap shit"
16:03	mircea_popescu	moriarty china just isn't particularly aggressive.
16:03	bounce	the us not only has the most advanced toys anywhere, it relies on them being so. china wouldn't have to. big difference.
16:03	moriarty	mircea_popescu, china is actually pretty aggressive territorially
16:04	moriarty	mircea_popescu, have you seen the latest china passport?
16:04	mircea_popescu	what about it ?
16:04	decimation	they have been derping in the south china sea recently
16:04	moriarty	decimation, exactly
16:04	mircea_popescu	well yeah, it being the south CHINA sea
16:04	moriarty	mircea_popescu, the passport outlines where china thinks its borders are
16:04	mircea_popescu	suppose someone was derping in anchorage bay.
16:04	mircea_popescu	moriarty hardly aggression.
16:04	decimation	http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-philippines-usa-idUSBREA4107020140502
16:04	assbot	Philippines to give U.S. forces access to up to five military bases| Reuters
16:05	mircea_popescu	aggression is when it comes to bomb canada and expects the us to mind its own fucking business.
16:05	moriarty	mircea_popescu, economic aggression can be just as painful
16:05	mircea_popescu	sure.
16:05	mircea_popescu	pain is not the basis of this discussion.
16:05	moriarty	mircea_popescu, as russia is finding out as a result of ukraine
16:05	mircea_popescu	you're misinformed :)
16:05	mircea_popescu	russia is fine. the us is too high to notice how fucked it's getting.
16:05	decimation	moriarty: it looks to me russia has the whip hand
16:06	decimation	what exactly is the us going to do about the ukraine? invade?
16:06	moriarty	decimation, in terms of land grab, maybe
16:06	moriarty	decimation, but for the cost of its own GDP
16:06	moriarty	i don't know
16:06	mircea_popescu	no, in terms of who gets flattened by an economic war
16:06	decimation	russia's oil will find buyers
16:06	moriarty	well, the US won't be affected by the embargo so much actually
16:06	moriarty	EU is the one who has to suffer
16:07	mircea_popescu	o, i see :D
16:07	decimation	last I read in the newspapers, Germany is pretty much on Russia's side
16:07	mircea_popescu	because the eu is so fucking married to the us and everything.
16:07	moriarty	of course
16:07	moriarty	because Germany has more to lose
16:07	moriarty	well, partially that
16:07	mircea_popescu	moriarty no, because the us is getting screwed in its imaginary economic war.
16:08	mircea_popescu	and germany doesn't want to be in the fallout
16:08	moriarty	but also the EU has more energy dependency on Russia than the US
16:08	decimation	this is true, but the us is itching to start exporting natural gas by ship
16:08	decimation	no one is going to go without gas or whatever
16:08	mircea_popescu	such an ineffectual process dear lord
16:09	bounce	so, us gas aid for ukraine then?
16:09	mircea_popescu	"let's save the environment by shipping natural gas across the atlantic because we're too bigmouthed to fit a cock"
16:09	decimation	I see it in the cards
16:09	moriarty	lol
16:09	mircea_popescu	bounce yes. airlifted :D
16:09	mircea_popescu	ich been ain odesseer
16:09	decimation	Odessa used to have a very large german population until Stalin
16:10	mircea_popescu	it's what makes the joke good
16:10	decimation	hehe
16:10	moriarty	anyway one of the nice perks of the war is that, Ukrainian beauties now come cheap
16:11	decimation	the mass rabble in the us will have no stomach for intervening in the ukraine
16:11	moriarty	:)
16:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00074843 = 9.5799 BTC [-] {2}
16:12	mircea_popescu	they've alsways been.
16:13	mircea_popescu	sooo... yesterday was trilema's largest reading day. yet nothing happened. 90%+ of it direct, too. wtf.
16:13	decimation	http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/history_culture/history/german_american_journal1.html
16:14	decimation	"The Germans from Russia are descendents of Germans who settled in Russia in the years about 1763 to 1862. Their story begins with Tsarina Catherine II (Catherine the Great) who was empress of Russia, but a German princess by birth. In July 1763 she issued a manifesto to attract people from Western Europe to settle in Russia. The manifesto promised new settlers freedom of religion, freedom from taxes for a 5-30 year period, freedom
16:14	decimation	from military service, and free land to farmers. By the end of 1767, German settlers from central Germany had established more than 100 colonies along the Volga River, near Saratov, Russia."
16:14	decimation	mircea_popescu: presumably people were googling for reasons why bitcoin prices were falling
16:14	moriarty	afk folks, enjoy the weekend
16:14	mircea_popescu	decimation i'd see it as search not as direct. meanwhile search incoming is dominated by keywords like "true"
16:15	mircea_popescu	seriously, 20% of my search traffic came looking for... "true" ? what the fucking hell of a cosmic joke is this.
16:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.141905 = 0.5676 BTC [+] {2}
16:15	decimation	huh. do the redirects come from particular domains?
16:16	mircea_popescu	they're not redirects. in fact, linked traffic has always been 10% or less, as far as trilema is concerned.
16:16	mircea_popescu	this month it's more like 4%
16:17	decimation	interesting. So that means people are visiting from bookmarks/rss/etc?
16:18	mircea_popescu	yeah
16:18	mircea_popescu	well i guess if they have silent (non js, non url-forwarding etc) browsers it could be from anywhere
16:19	mircea_popescu	trilema is really non-js friendly so i guess it prolly has more nonjs readers than average interwebs
16:20	mircea_popescu	"one of the great strengths of the APL ecosystem so far are the user community. Lispy people are a preposterously pricklish and unhelpful bunch in comparison."
16:20	mircea_popescu	is this true even ?
16:21	mircea_popescu	"But part of it definitely stems from the incessant stream of ignorant criticisms leveled at the Lisp community by outsiders" asciilifeform it occurs to me that if the outsiders can do that then the whole ecosystem empowers outsiders to an outrageous, unwarranted and quite dangerous degree.
16:22	mircea_popescu	if your highschool peers can make you antisocial by claiming you're antisocial then there's no incentive for them to abstain is there.
16:23	ben_vulpes	programmers are the herdiest of creatures
16:23	ben_vulpes	witness the insane popularity of v8 - js on the server!
16:24	ben_vulpes	also infected with "niceness" - don't talk shit on js! it's not nice!
16:24	mircea_popescu	i choose not to witness.
16:24	bounce	saves going door to door
16:24	decimation	no dude node.js is going to change everything
16:25	mircea_popescu	everything that passport.net did or w/e that crap was called
16:27	mircea_popescu	i can't read locklin without him annoying me. such a total schmoozeball.
16:34	mircea_popescu	"advertising is a symptom of insufficient demand or insufficient supply." naggum o.O
16:35	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: 'antisocial' in this case is same kind of 'antisocial' as, e.g., mathematicians who won't ask to learn from redditors how to do topology 'correctly according to the kommyoonity!'
16:36	mircea_popescu	this is what i meant, obliquely. if you allow the "community" of screaming monkeys to decide whether you are antisocial type 1 or 2, you're giving them too much power.
16:37	mircea_popescu	and if you conform by doing the "since they call me a thief anyway might as well", you are actually giving away that much power.
16:37	mircea_popescu	consider a simpler case, let me find it.
16:37	asciilifeform	if surrounded by monkeys, and for one reason or another can't call an exterminator - what to do.
16:37	asciilifeform	in this case - walls.
16:38	asciilifeform	walls tall enough that the monkeys don't even know, normally, that there is a something behind them, or walls at all.
16:38	asciilifeform	sometimes - a chimp finds a loose brick, and you have a little infestation problem.
16:39	mircea_popescu	"The site is owned by the most annoying, donkey riding arsehole involved with bitcoin." "Unlike all the others, owned by nice people that ran off with your coins." "I wish that arsehole would run off with all the coins if it meant never hearing from him again."
16:39	mircea_popescu	this should make it obvious. of course redditard monkey would love nothing more than for his idiocy to be confirmed.
16:40	mircea_popescu	important to remember that his declarative statements are powerless to influence reality, and as much as he'd like to live in a world where there's no incentive for me to stay honest,
16:40	mircea_popescu	nevertheless the world and his like have no common points.
16:40	asciilifeform	the most unbearable itch, to monkey, is the mental hole in his picture of the world, the annoying hatefact that rubs his nose in the entire model being horseshit.
16:40	mircea_popescu	right.
16:40	mircea_popescu	but what would be the equivalent to "lisp people being prickly" in context ?
16:40	mircea_popescu	me splitting with everyone's cash because some redditard says things ?
16:41	mircea_popescu	nonsense, that. equally nonsense in both cases.
16:41	*	ben_vulpes is a monkey with tools beyond his sophisticaiton
16:41	mircea_popescu	you can't become prickly just because people are idiots. it's giving idiots too much say.
16:41	asciilifeform	they are 'prickly' in the sense that their only contact with a world outside their own is redditards knocking on the door to 'teach how the world is'
16:42	mircea_popescu	perhaps.
16:42	decimation	the next step is to become a hermit in the taiga I guess
16:42	asciilifeform	http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3676
16:42	assbot	Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
16:42	asciilifeform	hermit in taiga :
16:42	asciilifeform	!s perelman mode
16:42	assbot	3 results for 'perelman mode' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=perelman+mode
16:44	ben_vulpes	whoa abcl runs on the jvm
16:45	ben_vulpes	my ignorance knows no bounds
16:45	mircea_popescu	hence boundless ignorance ? that ignorance ignorant even of bounds ?
16:46	ben_vulpes	i know not what i know not
16:47	ben_vulpes	alternatively, i know i know naught
16:47	decimation	re: model being horeshit: "Because, we know that with theoretical cherry picking someone can come up with a set of assumptions that produces a result that may logically follow from those assumptions, but if the assumptions really don't have much traction in the real world, that result really doesn't have much to say about what we are actually looking at. " << from my econtalk link above
16:49	mircea_popescu	decimation it's worse than that! consider : you could pick arbitrary assumptions and arbitrary data sets so as to theoretically and practically justify a particular theory sufficiently so that it gives the desired results for a FINITE time interval, calculated to exceed the probable testing period.
16:49	mircea_popescu	this is how us kids learn for exams, for instance.
16:49	mircea_popescu	fraud through and through, and yet.
16:50	mircea_popescu	proponents of such tailored "knowledge" will understandably fight tooth and nail with some classes of rational approach, such as the people who use the counterexample effectually (aka, trolls)
16:50	mircea_popescu	amusingly enough, for the capacities of the basic rational agent, they'd seem to have a point, too!
16:51	decimation	moriarty earlier said that such an attitude is 'simplistic' - after all, how can these people (economists, programmers, students) have so many papers and have said nothing?
16:53	mircea_popescu	i would suggest the volume in and of itself is proof they say nothing.
16:55	asciilifeform	this relates directly to certain circles seen as 'prickly'
16:55	asciilifeform	it comes mainly from not wishing to dissolve in the sea.
16:55	asciilifeform	not everyone is itching to be part of some gigantic 'everyone' who will 'do things their way'
16:56	asciilifeform	naggum wrote that the worst thing that could possibly happen to common lisp is if it became 'mainstream' and popular.
16:56	mircea_popescu	but that is a much more self aware, and effectually applied, violence than mere prickliness.
16:56	mircea_popescu	it's being an ashole deliberately and oppressing selected idiots wilfully.
16:57	mircea_popescu	maybe wrongly, but the term to me suggested involuntary and incontinence. which is what the entire observation was based on, after all :
16:57	mircea_popescu	if it's voluntary, if the prickly is passive, then the other party is active, and to the active goes the agency.
16:57	mircea_popescu	too much agency for a monkey.
16:59	asciilifeform	sometimes this situation evolves in interesting directions. e.g., monkeys steal a small subset of man's tech, and build a cargo-cultish airplane - but one which sorta flies when the weather is just so.
17:00	asciilifeform	then, for one reason or another (monkey overruns man's city; or, more commonly, man begins to turn monkey-like in his haste and sloth and adopts monkey's approach to design) and the fair-weather airplane becomes the only kind extant.
17:02	mircea_popescu	that may explain how we ended up with the current usg.
17:02	mircea_popescu	not a bad model of it at any rate.
17:02	asciilifeform	this is how we got these things that we call 'computer' even though i can't flip a switch that stops all cpus and shows me all the places 'quicksort' is mentioned on the machine and which ones got invoked in the last 7 days.
17:02	asciilifeform	and for how long
17:03	mircea_popescu	well top sorta-does that.
17:03	asciilifeform	nope.
17:03	decimation	something like 'dtrace' is closer
17:03	asciilifeform	nope again.
17:03	asciilifeform	i don't mean a specially-instrumented crippled proggy running for the occasion
17:03	decimation	yeah I get your point
17:04	mircea_popescu	i sometimes wonder how computing would work if linux weren't built on "packages" as implemented, but on actual functions
17:04	asciilifeform	see, precisely my point - i say 'airplane' and -everybody- assumes i mean 'gadget that flies 2 metres above ground for ten minutes if wind is blowing east'
17:04	decimation	mircea_popescu: the kernel kinda works that way
17:05	mircea_popescu	i guess, but originally i got very pissed off at ubuntu becaus you can't make a non-networking ubuntu machine without rewriting it all, instead of simply uninstalling netowrking.
17:05	asciilifeform	on a proper computer, e.g., 'quicksort' or 'newton-raphson method' are distinct entities. and there are no 'programs' as such, only a graph of circuit linkages.
17:05	mircea_popescu	however, that's not the point. suppose i want my machine to always use bubblesort. everywhere
17:05	mircea_popescu	and i want to accomplish this by replacing quicksort.package with bubblesort.package
17:05	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: on a lisp machine, you actually could.
17:06	asciilifeform	(merely redefine what 'sort' with no arguments does.)
17:06	mircea_popescu	maybe we make one sometime just for this reason.
17:06	decimation	asciilifeform: I agree that would be a great goal, but how do you handle types?
17:06	asciilifeform	decimation: handle them where?
17:07	decimation	well, let's say you wire (with 74hc say) a quicksort for 16 bit 2's complement signed integers
17:07	decimation	how do you re-use the quicksort for floats?
17:07	asciilifeform	decimation: if the order predicate is non-inferrable, it is given.
17:07	asciilifeform	just as in, for example, common lisp.
17:07	asciilifeform	and it appears you misunderstood 'circuit'
17:08	asciilifeform	wasn't talking about a hand-wired physical circuit
17:09	asciilifeform	but instead an entity which simulates the behaviour of one where possible (in much the same way a tcp/ip telephone attempts to behave like a traditional electric telephone.)
17:09	mircea_popescu	why emulate anything, ever.
17:10	asciilifeform	the same way electronic calculator 'emulates' a stable of slaves counting with beads.
17:11	asciilifeform	sometimes, the simulation turns out to be a superior 'reality' and you throw the old 'reality' out.
17:11	mircea_popescu	maybe this is merely semanticism
17:11	asciilifeform	and then you say 'british admiralty's logarithmic human calculators were merely emulating this here computer, on account of lacking one'
17:11	mircea_popescu	i didn't like the "were possible" part. either always, in which case it's a calculator, or forget it.
17:13	asciilifeform	'where possible' is answer to decimation's pointing out that you cannot, say, carry out multiplication on integers and 'ieee'-style floats on the same physical circuit with any degree of efficiency.
17:13	decimation	in which case each type combination would need its own machinery, or at least some method to convert between types
17:14	asciilifeform	or, for that matter, i cannot establish, for anywhere short of several $billion, an actual electric circuit from here to buenos aires
17:14	asciilifeform	so - stuck simulating one.
17:14	asciilifeform	usually - satisfactory.
17:14	*	mircea_popescu nods
17:15	decimation	I see how one would want a 'habitable' lower-level simulation language to accomplish this work
17:16	mircea_popescu	i just suddenly realised i don't understand why floats were even implemented, at all.
17:16	mircea_popescu	why are floats even implemented ?
17:16	decimation	mircea_popescu: the bane of numerical analysis students?
17:17	mircea_popescu	it's a numeric machine. it only uses integers.
17:17	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the extreme computational poverty of the 20th c.
17:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it gotta be a meaningless accident huh
17:18	decimation	yeah there's no reason why the cpu shouldn't support arbitrary precision arithmetic, even if it takes a lower-level state machine to emulate
17:18	decimation	it's an example of ascii's fair-weather 10 foot altitude airplane
17:18	mircea_popescu	it is isnt it
17:19	mircea_popescu	back then people hadn't figured what the pc is, so they just bolted some capitalistic crap to the sides
17:19	mircea_popescu	just in case, who knows, maybe it's used in some case.
17:19	decimation	in theory silicon could be masked into any arbitrary design
17:20	decimation	in practice the design space is restricted, just like all phones are iphones now
17:21	asciilifeform	why do we have floating point hardware instead of rational arithmetic towers? largely, because of code like this:
17:21	asciilifeform	http://pastebin.com/scRkxz9w
17:21	assbot	[C] example of gcov - Pastebin.com
17:21	asciilifeform	where we're really trying to simulate an analogue computer, for some gnarly physical model
17:21	mircea_popescu	this has been a very illuminating discussion
17:21	asciilifeform	but can't use an actual analogue circuit, because the output is non-deterministic or because noise ends up multiplicative due to the nature of the ops
17:22	decimation	yeah, multiplicative noise in analog computers is the bane of rf designers
17:22	asciilifeform	it's the reason the tech was abandoned
17:22	asciilifeform	despite working quite well - and cheaply - for many operations.
17:23	decimation	your car radio multiplies two waveforms with a few diodes and a filter circuit
17:23	mircea_popescu	<asciilifeform> why do we have floating point hardware instead of rational arithmetic towers? << but we don't. we have rational arithmetic towers pretending (unconvincingly) to be floating point hardware
17:23	mircea_popescu	and i'll venture a guess that more computer insecurity was caused by this than any other one thing
17:23	asciilifeform	'rational' has literal mathematical meaning here
17:23	asciilifeform	as in, answers take the form one '1 / 2' rather than 0.500000
17:23	mircea_popescu	quite. the ring of integers and + -
17:24	asciilifeform	yes.
17:24	asciilifeform	no extant cpu has a 'rational tower' in that sense.
17:24	mircea_popescu	all do!
17:24	mircea_popescu	what the fuck, all they do is bitwise addition
17:24	asciilifeform	ah in that sense - yes
17:24	mircea_popescu	well ?
17:24	asciilifeform	but in a 'rational tower', the output of 'sqrt(2)' is 'sqrt(2)'.
17:25	mircea_popescu	this is an os notation problem
17:25	mircea_popescu	in a computer the output of "abc" is "abc' rather than whatever windows may spit out with a bad charset or w/e
17:25	asciilifeform	not only notation. to know which operations are not rationally reducible, requires a fairly good symbolic maths apparatus (e.g., 'macsyma' and its plagiarized clones)
17:26	asciilifeform	not unsolvable problem by any means
17:26	mircea_popescu	it's a numeric machine tho
17:26	decimation	(which is really an irrational tower :)
17:26	asciilifeform	but quite a bit of work on top of what extant machines do in bare silicon.
17:27	decimation	in theory, if maxima can do it in software, it could be done with automa at a lower level in silicon
17:27	asciilifeform	think this way. i take a cpu (your choice, which) and put '7' in a register, and '2' in another, and demand that division happen.
17:27	mircea_popescu	i suspect maxima only does it "in some cases"
17:27	asciilifeform	what is the answer represented?
17:28	decimation	depends on the cpu, but you aren't going to get '7/2'
17:28	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: symbolic maths packages traditionally err on the side of irreducibility
17:28	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you can only put 00000007 and 00000002 in the registers, and the result will be 28571428 and an overflow bit.
17:29	asciilifeform	point here is that a 'rational tower' is one where no information is lost as a result of this operation.
17:29	asciilifeform	this is an important definitional point.
17:29	mircea_popescu	that';s not a guarantee finite-register machines can make
17:29	mircea_popescu	basically you're saying "take this thing from a compact representation to an infinite representation on a finite space without loss"
17:30	asciilifeform	it works so long as 'don't play' is a valid move.
17:30	asciilifeform	works until godelized, at any rate.
17:30	mircea_popescu	no, cause the no play is not a computer, it's a wife./
17:30	mircea_popescu	computer can't have autonomy to decide if to play.
17:30	asciilifeform	'no play' is SOP in physical reality.
17:31	asciilifeform	chuck some metal into a lathe, try cutting too deep.
17:31	mircea_popescu	which is why reality is a harsh mistress.
17:31	decimation	the new jersey method would be to return a buggy result and hope for the best?
17:31	mircea_popescu	decimation honestly, filling the register ain't buggy.
17:31	asciilifeform	decimation: halfway on the road to african method - sit in a tub of own shit and call it a 'computer'
17:31	mircea_popescu	"give me this cup full of 2/7" should result in a cupful
17:31	decimation	no, not buggy, but lossy
17:33	decimation	but are 8 digits worth of 2/7 actually 2/7?
17:33	asciilifeform	student exercise. prove that the minimally-braindamaged implementation of hardware finite-precision floating point requires a base of 'e'.
17:33	mircea_popescu	decimation no, but they ARE 8 digits worth of 2/7
17:34	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform unless you do trig. then it needs pi
17:34	mircea_popescu	not that it's not the same number.
17:34	asciilifeform	or use euler's identity...
17:34	decimation	yeah it seems to me that you need complex numbers
17:35	decimation	so base 'e' would be great for representing arbitrary complex phasors
		~ 15 minutes ~
17:50	decimation	right, with euler's identity you could represent sin, cos, and pi without loss
17:53	mircea_popescu	were you away doing math for half hour ?
17:54	asciilifeform	herr euler did the math, why would he have to.
17:54	mircea_popescu	just funny the way he came back later with it :p
17:54	decimation	I got sidetracked with herr knuth too
17:55	decimation	base e would also be convenient for logarithms
17:56	mircea_popescu	im surprised nobody came up with the don knuth is satoshi knack yet.
18:03	danielpbarron	!up BlueMeanie4
18:04	BlueMeanie4	hey, just writing up some stuff on NXT @ reddit
18:08	danielpbarron	apparently one of my tweets that cites a trilema article was mentioned in some youtube video https://twitter.com/mrchrisellis/status/513448933306404866
18:08	assbot	BREAKING: US Government losing its monopoly on funding terrorism http://t.co/vhm3OYZBXV by /jencopestake & /BBCClick /hashtag/ISIS?src=hash /hashtag/DarkWallet?src=hash
18:10	mircea_popescu	"Possibilitarian, #Cryptocurrency enthusiast & student of philosophy. I hope to make the world better than I found it. Bitcoin"
18:13	BlueMeanie4	possibilitiarian
18:13	mircea_popescu	i first read presbytarian
18:13	BlueMeanie4	does everyone have a gimmick these days?
18:13	mircea_popescu	my word dissolver had a moment of "bloody hell!"
18:13	BlueMeanie4	im a crypto expert, I also double a circus sideshow freak and a professional craft beer taster
18:13	fluffypony	I have a big penis
18:14	fluffypony	that's my only claim to fame
18:14	fluffypony	:(
18:16	mircea_popescu	how big is big ?
18:17	fluffypony	38 on the richter scale
18:20	bounce	useful trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&t=94s
18:20	assbot	The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) - YouTube
18:23	mircea_popescu	uh. scam.
18:23	mircea_popescu	there's 8 most important videos ?
18:26	jurov	re: base e floats: they are a bitch to add or increase/decrease by 1
18:27	mircea_popescu	so count in e's
18:27	mircea_popescu	pretend the world is a huge rave
18:28	*	jurov asks mircea to sell precisely e shares of S.MPOE
18:28	decimation	lol
18:28	devthedev	"If problems of the planet have an exponential growth, solutions need to have a higher exponential growth."
18:29	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform "To be publicly critical of a project that is still so young and involves so many degrees of freedom reflects poorly on your own intelligence."
18:30	mircea_popescu	i definitely love going in old blogs comment sections to fish for these sorts of gems
18:30	mircea_popescu	"time will show you how wrong you were!!1"
18:30	BlueMeanie4	polyannacoin
18:30	mircea_popescu	jurov always the negativist. think, the problem of splitting the pie! always a np problem!
18:30	BlueMeanie4	the greatest new crypto coin in the world- not allowed to say anything negative
18:30	mircea_popescu	now all it takes is one cut
18:31	mircea_popescu	BlueMeanie4 wasn't a coin.
18:31	mircea_popescu	it was to be a whole bitcoin killer!
18:31	mircea_popescu	with pirates and boats and stuff
18:31	jurov	well then...better keep the pie intact
18:32	jurov	or, better, split it by cutting out circles
18:34	mircea_popescu	pi - e
18:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19562 @ 0.00074802 = 14.6328 BTC [-] {2}
18:42	penguirker	New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/fuck-africa-or-exploration-in-the-idiocy-of-the-crowd/
18:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform btw you still hold solar panels cost more energy to make than they produce ?
		~ 18 minutes ~
19:02		Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "BTC worth over $5000 before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/716/ Odds: 8(Y):92(N) by coin, 13(Y):87(N) by weight. Total bet: 69.48359775 BTC. Current weight: 23,543.
19:03	mircea_popescu	decimation wait, so the tesla bmc actually can't charge/discharge the cells individually
19:03	mircea_popescu	bwahahaha wut.
19:16	jurov	did they claim to do it individually?
19:17	jurov	giving a power transistor to each cell? i see it's easier to match them
19:18	mircea_popescu	jurov well their claim was "the most advanced bmc in teh possibru!!1"
19:18	mircea_popescu	so i get to expect it does absolutely anything i can imagine.
19:18	mircea_popescu	that's the drawback to bullshit advertising talk
19:22	Namworld	That is... an interesting read: http://hddb.teamikaria.com/classic/introduction.htm
19:22	assbot	Introduction to the fourth dimension
19:23	jurov	hi Namworld, is it related to talk about women earlier today?
19:23	Namworld	What? Not aware of earlier talk.
19:24	jurov	some dude tried to teach mircea about women "they live in another dimension"
19:26	Namworld	I guess that would be a fitting comment. But no, was merely finding that this site had 4 dimensions well explained.
19:35	thestringpuller	;;ticker
19:35	gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 410.28, Best ask: 412.4, Bid-ask spread: 2.12000, Last trade: 410.24, 24 hour volume: 20019.56640465, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 413.168183325
19:41	thestringpuller	!l m s.mpoe
19:41	assbot	Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00074802 BTC [-]
19:41	thestringpuller	!l h rent
19:41	assbot	Last trade for RENT on HAVELOCK was at 0.0075 BTC [+]
19:41	ben_vulpes	new p.o., thestringpuller
19:41	ben_vulpes	fourth fixed offering?
19:45	thestringpuller	dunno which number but it happened a few days ago
19:45	thestringpuller	havelock investors are pretty irrational ~_~
19:45	ben_vulpes	same as before .0075
19:45	thestringpuller	http://bitzuma.com/posts/blockchain-info-paper-backup-stores-private-keys-in-the-browser-history/
19:45	assbot	Blockchain.info Paper Backup Stores Private Keys in the Browser History - Bitzuma
19:45	ben_vulpes	stale ;)
19:49	thestringpuller	i had a dream i ran out of cookie dough
19:49	thestringpuller	more like a nightmare really
19:52	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31750 @ 0.00074735 = 23.7284 BTC [-] {2}
20:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00075038 = 21.686 BTC [+] {2}
20:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8550 @ 0.00074616 = 6.3797 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 27 minutes ~
20:44	mircea_popescu	jurov lol dimensions
20:46	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-107974 << guess who answered.
20:46	assbot	So the Dollar Vigilante scam ring is going to jail. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
		~ 36 minutes ~
21:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.145 = 0.87 BTC [-] {2}
21:24	mircea_popescu	;;calc (5/3)**10
21:24	gribble	165.381716879
		~ 22 minutes ~
21:46	mircea_popescu	mike_c hey, you never made a banner for the analysis page ?
21:47	mike_c	i made one yesterday. it sucked, so i need to make another one.
21:50	mircea_popescu	aok
		~ 48 minutes ~
22:39	mike_c	send complaints to btcalpha design department. they deserve it. http://i.imgur.com/SIOI7Wx.png
22:41	mircea_popescu	ahahahah
22:41	mircea_popescu	it's so dumb it's cute
22:41	mike_c	campy
22:41	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla ^ for a month ?
22:41	*	asciilifeform finally washed off the aluminum swarf and black oil.
22:42	mircea_popescu	mike_c http://www.27bslash6.com/brochure.html
22:42	assbot	"Dropshadows lift the type off the page as if they are 3D. You probably don't even know how to do them."
22:43	mike_c	" If for some reason I do decide to use any of the existing graphic components, a quick search on Google for 'clipart of man holding clipboard' and 'blue wiggly line for no apparent reason' should suffice." lol
22:44	mircea_popescu	!up olil3olli3
22:46	kakobrekla	mircea_popescu mike_c its on.
22:47	kakobrekla	mircea_popescu well it does have that stock market growth resembling line.
22:47	asciilifeform	http://imgur.com/8YlfMv6
22:47	assbot	imgur: the simple image sharer
22:47	mike_c	and a happy androgenous person!
22:48	mike_c	ascii: i now have your fingerprints on file and can hack ur iphone
22:48	asciilifeform	certainly.
22:48	asciilifeform	so does the dustman.
22:49	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform's iphone does things with the milkman ?!
22:49	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform da heck is that ?
22:49	asciilifeform	a small aluminum turd.
22:50	mircea_popescu	that i can see. but hwa'ts it to do ?
22:50	mike_c	thx kakobrekla
22:50	kakobrekla	ty.
22:50	mircea_popescu	thank you!
22:51	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not entirely complete mount bracket for this: http://imgur.com/Cd4Kghs
22:51	assbot	imgur: the simple image sharer
22:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 55 @ 0.13808827 = 7.5949 BTC [-] {9}
22:51	mircea_popescu	aha!
22:52	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes is invited to laugh at my n00b m4ch1n1ng
22:52	asciilifeform	(along with any other genuine machinist around)
22:52	mircea_popescu	dude wtf tolerances are those, 10% resistence 20% inductance
22:52	mircea_popescu	how do they make this thing, in a hammer mill ?
22:53		Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin >= $2000 before December" http://bitbet.us/bet/1014/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 11(Y):89(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.92910085 BTC. Current weight: 57,430.
22:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the actual impedance of a stepper almost never matters
22:53	mircea_popescu	no but as a general point
22:53	asciilifeform	stepper is an item that normally either works (turns D degrees per electric cycle) or does not (skips beat, because overloaded, underpowered, etc)
22:54	asciilifeform	they are typically powered by a constant-current circuit, so even the rated voltage is not a critical value.
22:55	asciilifeform	the critical values are: dimensional. (marked on linked picture.)
22:57	ben_vulpes	asciilifeform: you refrain from mocking me, humans can learn, etc etc etc
22:57	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: picked on you given as you're the only actual machinist i'm even distantly familiar with
22:57	ben_vulpes	kinda funny that your fingerprint's in focus but the millmarks not though
22:58	*	asciilifeform is also not a photographer
22:58	ben_vulpes	might want to break those edges
22:58	asciilifeform	mega-surprise
22:58	asciilifeform	yeah it's razor-sharp
22:58	asciilifeform	went at it with a fly-cutter first, but nearly destroyed both work and tool
22:58	asciilifeform	finished off with normal endmill.
22:59	asciilifeform	still screwing around trying to make the machine run true.
23:01	ben_vulpes	thing about machining and code is that a pro is always going to tell you a number of ways to make it look better without materially improving the thing
23:01	asciilifeform	less of a 'look better' concern, and more of a 'orthogonal planes actually need to be orthogonal damn it all to hell' concern.
23:02	ben_vulpes	to within what tolerance, though?
23:03	asciilifeform	to fingers-and-eyes-aren't-screaming-you're-a-tard-to-all-comers tolerance...
23:03	ben_vulpes	not really an engineering criteria, that.
23:04	asciilifeform	to +/- 0.1 mm.
23:04	ben_vulpes	measuring orthogonality in mm?
23:05	asciilifeform	lol
23:05	asciilifeform	shape was meant to be a square cross section.
23:05	asciilifeform	so, equality of sides to 0.1mm.
23:05	asciilifeform	and ideally, 90 degree angles, to 1 degree or less.
23:07	ben_vulpes	i'm guessing that only two sides really need to be orthogonal
23:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32844 @ 0.00074673 = 24.5256 BTC [+]
23:08	ben_vulpes	the face to which the thing bolts, and the face which bolts to the other thing
23:08	ben_vulpes	but i really have no idea.
23:10	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes guessed it.
23:11	ben_vulpes	in that situation you mill one face flat on top of your spacers or whatever they're called (i've forgotten), mill the opposite face parallel, clamp in a vise and then mill the remaining important face perpendicular to either of the two previous
23:12	ben_vulpes	well, a face, and then rotate 180 setting the piece down on the spacers again before clamping to get the machine to define your planes of perpendicularity.
23:12	ben_vulpes	not really articulating clearly, as i've been fabricating all day as well.
23:13	ben_vulpes	but i, spice racks, and with hand tools as this hovel has no machine shop.
23:14	cazalla	brock pierce on the keiser report http://youtu.be/MXJk2ZodaNw?t=12m42s
23:14	assbot	Keiser Report: Fear mongering from Scottish No voters (E656) - YouTube
23:24	decimation	yeah turns out the 'advanced' battery pack is just a pile of standard lithium batteries wired in strings
23:24	decimation	I'm not sure if the guy did a schematic, would be helpful

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