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03:13 unpx asciilifeform same. And what scares me is that I don't know why.
~ 7 hours 41 minutes ~
10:54 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-13#1018298 << i thought awt disable addrcast, so the only way AT recovery happens is if everyone but one station changes ip at a time, and the synchronizes before the next station does
10:54 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-13 19:24:34 asciilifeform[5]: in AT still sees 'no packets received' from unpx
10:55 phf at least i'm not getting any addrcast messages from anyone
10:56 phf and you've changed your ip at least once in the past few months, because i remember updating it
~ 20 minutes ~
11:17 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-18#1013124 afaik this is the last release
11:17 bitbot Logged on 2022-09-18 20:15:50 awt: 9971 with mcrypt, potential prod loop fix, ac disabled by default
~ 27 minutes ~
11:44 asciilifeform phf: aha iirc disabled by default currently; and to add to headache, of course old vers dun even relay addrcasts
11:46 asciilifeform phf: does your pestron proto eat addrcast ?
11:51 awt Yes, addrcast disabled by default. Need to randomly space out the broadcasts.
11:52 asciilifeform a ty awt
11:53 phf asciilifeform, it logs packets that are not otherwise explicitly silenced ("ignore" is the only message type that's like that)
11:53 asciilifeform a
11:55 phf it keeps them around as ephemera, so i can inspect them and maybe live repl a real response, and, having done, that crystalize that into concrete code.
11:56 asciilifeform ( for the nat drill mechanism to work, both ends gotta support 'prod' and 'addrcast', and the peer they have in common has to relay the 'addrcast'. and, on top of this, if 1 or both are in 'symmetric nat', the old mechanism aint enuff; need the 'hammer' described in new draft)
11:56 asciilifeform phf: nifty
11:57 billymg trb node operators to be required to register as money service providers
11:59 phf i don't for example rebuild backlog, i just (prod) and then (GETDATA (RED-PACKET-BROADCASTNETCHAIN last-red))
12:00 phf so i've been doing it like that for couple of weeks, until i wired prod into process-packet mainloop, now it does the second step automatically. i still manaully (prod) on boot :>
12:00 billymg getting awfully close to http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026649
12:00 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2020-12-17 asciilifeform: say this yr they ask 'do you hodl'. next 'please list addrs'. and 2022 -- list privkeys.. will list ?
12:01 asciilifeform billymg: lol, and dun fughet that mp3 users required to pay royalties to fraunhoffer, and torrent users, required to pay mpaa
12:01 asciilifeform phf: atm afaik just about erryone doing some variant of 'hand-cranked addrcast'
12:02 phf and (prod) is just (SPOOL (MAKE-RED-PACKET :type :PROD …))
12:03 phf i'm doing that old school lisp machine development style thing, where "handcranking" is "code you haven't written yet, but strongly aligned with"
12:03 asciilifeform aaha
12:04 asciilifeform phf: recall how pestronics started with 'let's see if can lightly patch an old irc relayer'
12:05 billymg asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled opposition figure as the hero who defe
12:06 asciilifeform billymg: per asciilifeform's pov, worst thing that's happened to bitcoin to date was its 2010s 'legalization' and the 'institutional' 'law-abiding' vermin crawling in and pumping/dumping
12:07 phf the worst thing that imho happened to bitcoin is the original 16k spike, but it's probably driven by this legalization
12:08 asciilifeform aaha
12:09 phf subjectively, i feel like the 16k spike was the reason why tmsr ~really~ went under
12:11 phf was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums
12:14 phf well, at least it was the case for me. the amount of time i put into btcbase and vtools for them to be basically "open source" (i.e. unpaid work for kommunity, that came more with abuse and responsibility, than even kudos)
12:23 asciilifeform ( oblig )
12:29 asciilifeform and see also re: a moar fundamental boojum.
12:29 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2021-11-17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066486 << there's imho a quite serious systemic defect in bitcoin (and no, i'm not aware of any possible 'fix') -- [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifefo
12:31 phf right, a combination of "early hodls" and the fact that the most effective means of legitimate bitcoin, that is without goxing or similar, is to put excess fiat into it
12:33 billymg phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?
12:34 phf billymg, yeah that's a very concise and proper way of putting it
12:35 phf but i'm thinking i wasn't the only one in that boat (judging by the frequency of ascii rants about "day job" and "where the money at", which mostly started around that time)
12:36 phf and i don't think it was tmsr only either. why sell pizza for satoshis just to participate in bitcoin economy, if can go work for goldman sachs and make fat stacks, and then buy btc with that
12:38 phf imho that spike basically destroyed "bitcoin economy" overnight, hippies that bought acid of silkroad2 suddenly turned into hodlers
12:46 billymg i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit
12:47 billymg partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"
12:50 phf billymg, this is a point of dispute, but at least for me the hodl aspect was the least desirable element. the way i remember things is that lords were supposed to be independently wealthy (in coin, dollars or free time), and the goal was to build novel parallel economy first, benefit from it in wordly possessions second.
12:56 phf the early catechisms, before hodl, were novel ideas about pgp contracts and corporations, counterparty relationships mediated by strong crypto, novel system of trust. there's a reason it's the most serene republic, the previous serene republics being venice, genoa and lucca
13:00 phf the idea, again because this is what attracted me to tmsr therefore that is what i saw, was to build infrastructure for the future of business relationships, the way republic of venice is a foundational blueprint for western business world
13:04 billymg that was my main appeal too, a parallel economy and wot being stood up so to be ready for the inevitable fiat world collapse
13:05 billymg and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it
13:07 asciilifeform from asciilifeform's pov, the 'lift' was a source of frustration strictly : 'dun matter worth a shit whatcha do, even if you invent antigrav, still will make for pale shadow of 'was there when exch rate was 1$' '
13:07 phf i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
13:08 asciilifeform approx as interesting as e.g. ftp (today, rather than in golden age of w4r3z ftps)
13:11 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018338 << from asciilifeform's pov, 'stack coin' was rather tedious proposition, in that 'could spend 100% of salary for yrs, and still not make appreciable + in even modest stack', again as result of the 'lift'
13:11 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 12:33:39 billymg: phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?
13:12 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018349 << but _tmsr_ economy never existed, was kind of like state of the art rocket, that didn't even fell on launch, was just continously being worked on
13:12 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 13:05:19 billymg: and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it
13:12 * asciilifeform did some 'stack' but purely as side effect of the piz crackpottery and mp's 'i wanna buy anuther bmw' episodes
13:13 asciilifeform phf: quite accurate analogy
13:13 asciilifeform 'let's build mars rocket, at some pt surely someone will come up with some fuel'
13:15 phf well, the fuel part is i guess the ambiguous and disputed part, and it's step 2 in billymg's "tmsr earning coin plan"
13:16 phf mp's final opinion, once everyone was removed, was that the entirety of tmsr was useless, and therefore not funding it was the smart thing to do
13:16 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018343 << afaik the only folx in that period who took in ~palpable~ coin were 1) mp, from operating pyramid 2) handful of folx who played in same
13:16 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 12:46:48 billymg: i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit
13:18 asciilifeform for the most part, mp not spent his coin, but rather 'paid' people with the jingle of his purse, like hajja nasreddin
13:19 phf i'm not personally privy to that, mostly because i guess never wanted to be paid in coin jingle, didn't take on any "once it's running the money will come" projects
13:21 phf although one of the projects in retrospect might've been profitable, it was supposed to be a kind of btc onlyfans
13:21 * asciilifeform took on, tho not from any strong notion that 'money will come'
13:21 phf it would've had at least one customer!
13:22 asciilifeform there were some # of projs where 'we have 1 customer' (i.e. mp) 'and here's anuther' (also mp, different glove) but no 3rd
13:23 asciilifeform elementarily, a room fulla paupers + 1 moneybag aint 'an economy'
13:23 phf but for example how much coin did diana actually saw? i had an exchange with her my last days, on her channel, the logs for which i believe are lost, since she seemed to have perged the logs from her blog.
13:23 asciilifeform but rather moar resembled those 19th c. british bridges where suited gentlemen threw copper coins into the mud below the bridge to watch the 'mudlarks' (hobos) dive for'em
13:23 phf and to her abstract "one ought to answer why tmsr in their heart first" i answered with "well, you're actually being paid large sums of coins". she was not pleased :>
13:24 asciilifeform phf: if one believes the s.mg communiques (still up on mp's fossilized www) can count that coin
13:25 asciilifeform phf: prior to s.mg, 'mpoe.pr' (hanbot) also had salary in coin, was also in statements on mp's www
13:25 asciilifeform these 2 were afaik the only known 'unprincipled exceptions' he made re 'dun pay people a wage'
13:25 phf 􏿽i guess one has to go through the backlog of s.mg? reason why i brought up diana is because in her recent blog post where she reflects on loss, she make it seem like the 60btc or whatever which is s.mg budget holding whatever, of which 30btc is diana's (i might have the numbers exa
13:26 phf 􏿽ctly wrong, but the point stands), are lost.
13:26 phf so i guess there was salary, but then there was also company shares
13:27 * asciilifeform knows for certain only re s.nsa piggy, which was operated in precisely this style, i.e. all keys strictly in mp's pocket
13:27 phf right, you also have insight into it? i guess the s.nsa budget of whatever it was 10s of btc was never actually ever moved?
13:28 asciilifeform iirc ~20 coin were used up ( for hosting, and coupla times to reimburse asciilifeform when bought parts for protos )
13:28 asciilifeform outta total of iirc ~300
13:29 phf i guess it was mp stake in coin to your stake in sweat equity. but since mp was managing coing and doing reimbersement, in order to move any of your company's alleged coin you had to come to him
13:29 * asciilifeform thought it was rather strange where , in the episode where mp asked asciilifeform to extract & liquidate forkcoin from mp's hodl, and asciilifeform requested that same process carried out for snsa piggy, d00d refused
13:30 phf not your wallet not your coin :D
13:30 billymg http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << i agree that a btc with warren's 'kyc trb nodes' makes no sense (it's just a reich checking account with extra steps), but assuming this never comes to pass then i still view it as interesting. just as torrents still continue to work and i continue to use them
13:30 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
13:30 asciilifeform phf: correct, afaik all of his ops were conducted this way. didn't even seem peculiar at the time, 'naturally he won't put it where sumbody could walk off with it'
13:31 phf lol, that explains a lot of things
13:32 asciilifeform fwiw the hodl ref'd above (where at the end he said 'of course i've moar, but let's stop here, is enuff') summed to ~3k.
13:33 asciilifeform already asciilifeform started to suspect alcohol problem, in the end he had a fit re the small commission (mutually agreed!) asciilifeform was charging.
13:33 asciilifeform summer of '17.
13:34 asciilifeform d00d chronically had genuine trouble remembering what he had agreed to mere week prior.
13:35 * asciilifeform started out trying to show him how to do this chore w/ own hands, but he even answrd 'wai not you do it, make a commission'
13:35 phf see i thought when you said in the past "paid with coin jingle" you meant it figuratively in a sense that s.nsa pay outs were meager, less than in any case than the demands of the lifestyle you're accustomed to, but there just weren't any to begin with
13:35 asciilifeform phf: not 100% 'with jingle', d00d was entirely willing to occasionally do 'barrelhead' transaction
13:35 asciilifeform 'i need an auto, wire to xxx' etc
13:36 phf ahaha
13:36 asciilifeform but this was for barrelhead trades, rather than 'sweat for snsa'
13:36 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018327 << just about every other bill also started with language to skewer self-custody, removed in amendment process, fwiw.
13:36 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 12:05:48 billymg: asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled opposition figure as the hero who defe
13:37 signpost not that it's particularly reassuring
13:40 asciilifeform phf: ~work~ was 'paid in jingle'.
13:40 asciilifeform ( unless you were diana / hanbot )
13:42 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018332 << correct in my case. I went and got my biz sold, was meanwhile grunting out a linux distro for the guy and receiving this for my trouble.
13:42 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 12:11:54 phf[awt]: was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums
13:42 bitbot (trilema) 2019-11-25 mircea_popescu: seems to me today november the 25th we've not moved inch one away from nov 12th, though it's been two weeks. i don't expect anything substantially different will occur in the remaining two, so i'll just conclude that for whatever reason trinque's not the man for this job.
13:42 asciilifeform signpost: if in e.g. 2010 'it is nao prohibited to run btc noad!', mpaa tasked with ferreting out violators, arguably would've been moar interesting times, perhaps steady 100bux or whatnot exch rate, actual honest work re stego & network health, and no goldman pumpers
13:44 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018344 << fwiw I made the guy aware I had a growing PAYMENTS BUSINESS for christ's sake and zero flowed my way
13:44 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 12:47:45 billymg: partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"
13:45 signpost would've netted him an actual return on any shares bought too.
13:45 signpost life goes on, but this was about the time I decided to reallocate effort, yes.
13:45 asciilifeform signpost: d00d had all the cocaine he needed, etc. and ran tmsr the way boy runs an ant farm, strictly for entertainment, 'watch'em scamper for crumbs', is asciilifeform's pov re the denoument years
13:46 asciilifeform for wat he needed 'return'.
13:46 signpost the game's fun for those meant for the game
13:46 signpost in either case, he had the right to do what pleased.
13:47 asciilifeform did seem genuinely surprised re the ants walking outta the ant farm via hole
13:49 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << I agree; without repair to culture, novel monetary instrument means very little.
13:49 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl
13:49 signpost those that think money's at a level beneath culture have spent too much time in the corporate empire.
13:50 asciilifeform with the kind of 'friends' btc has, not needs enemies, lol
13:52 signpost absent a tmsr producing businesses (which require either capital or approx 10y of sweat) you have sequoia, andresson, et al owning "fintech" as tentacles of the reich.
13:52 signpost but anyhow, we're here not there.
13:53 asciilifeform signpost: from asciilifeform's pov, there simply wasn't the capital to even have sporting chance of any interesting mega-proj taking off.
13:53 asciilifeform (once you substract mp's jingling but tightly-closed purse)
13:53 asciilifeform *subtract
13:54 signpost sure. I've never been opposed to producing works for fun so long as nobody's cracking a whip.
13:55 asciilifeform e.g. asciilifeform offered to help bake silicon, set up pirate radio net, etc. but would've req'd actual spend. and unsurprisingly d00d wasn't interested
14:01 asciilifeform pretty sure we had this thrd at least 1ce, but -- to the extent mp had political/megalomaniacal aims, was interested in carrying'em out only to the extent it could be done by folx 'doing tricks for peanuts'. (or, hypothetically, by other moneybags, somehow politically aligned -- but none turned up)
14:04 signpost to be charitable, without other moneybags showing up, world ain't changing.
14:04 asciilifeform the moneybags, near as asciilifeform can see w/ naked eye, like 'world' precisely as it is.
14:04 signpost or as you said
14:04 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-07 11:55:31 asciilifeform[5]: mp for his part was visibly (and sympathetically) frustrated at presiding over band of clockmakers rather than pikemen. but if wanted the latter, oughta have config'd his time machine correctly.
14:05 signpost yup
14:07 asciilifeform d00d wanted shaheeds, but neglected to invent a suitable religion that'd offer the req'd 72 virgins
14:10 asciilifeform phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?
14:13 signpost may also be something fundamentally broken about revival/memberberries movements.
14:14 * asciilifeform not looked at diana's www for rather long while, and found the above a difficult read, is rather like reading e.g. catholic apologists, extreme case of 'limba de lemn'(tm)(r)(mp), one'd need some kinda dope to fully make sense of the text
14:14 asciilifeform signpost: wat are/were memberberries ?
14:15 signpost "reboot old europe in bitcoin" for example.
14:15 asciilifeform a
14:16 signpost not that it doesn't appeal to me, but it might be rather like fighting a riptide. the sea of transmayo slaves will move as it does without even noticing ya
14:16 asciilifeform that aint the problem imho
14:17 asciilifeform problem is e.g. 'let's reboot sound money' 'but how to prevent goldman from issuing unbacked paperized obligations in it' '..'
14:19 signpost the answer is the sovereign kills them for it, and this won't happen while common law and pretend democracy of transmayo slaves.
14:20 asciilifeform well ~whole appeal was 'dun need million-man army, they kill themselves' somehow
14:20 signpost probably the sovereign who does so doesn't even need bitcoin.
14:20 asciilifeform witness the ~0 interest of crowned heads in bitcoinism.
14:20 asciilifeform (why, when running own kingdom on printolade precisely like washington does)
14:21 signpost some of those same are piling up gold atm. plenty of interest in sound money, just not at the slave layer.
14:21 asciilifeform imho there was (still is, theoretically) useful direction to press, to test orig. hypothesis -- suppose trb worked as well as e.g. warez torrent, from strictly technical pov
14:21 signpost possibly those same have use of BTC if the "multipolar" thing holds a while and chinese don't end up permission-coin-ing world trade.
14:21 asciilifeform even this, mp wasn't partic. interested in achieving
14:22 asciilifeform for that matter, 'btc economy' how-to aint any kinda mystery.
14:22 asciilifeform recipe's right there.
14:22 asciilifeform not even req's shaheeds. only folx with some modicum of surplus.
14:23 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-01-14 asciilifeform: operate, if you will, 'half-duplex' economy.
14:23 asciilifeform but nooo, erryone simply wants to 'ride hodl lift'
14:23 signpost entire stack's still worth building as post-collapse tool, not of everything, but of fiat empires, which can indeed happen.
14:24 * signpost just holds no delusions about coming to power himself in such a scenario
14:24 asciilifeform the correct time to build up btc economy is ~before~ ~nobody has a surplus and focuses on 'naked survive' imho
14:25 asciilifeform work on oddball new tech req's material surplus + leisure.
14:27 signpost yup
14:32 asciilifeform recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;
14:32 asciilifeform 2) the difficulty of coming up with btc
14:32 asciilifeform 3) difficulty of transacting, operating dysfunctional softs, evading censors & snoops
14:33 asciilifeform (3) was/is addressable, if anyone gave enuff shit, and asciilifeform burned MBs of bw describing how (and even supplying, gratis, various moving parts for subj)
14:34 asciilifeform (2) could be addressable if 'moneybags' weren't cocaine-addled morons as a class
14:34 asciilifeform (1) ditto
14:36 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018465 << that's my point about the hodl culture
14:36 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 14:32:23 asciilifeform[6]: recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;
14:37 phf speculation kicking in before functional economy destroyed even the potential for the economy
14:38 phf and consider that tmsr was extreme take on btc implications the effect that it had on us, necessarily had a more pronounced effect on elsewhere
14:41 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018437 << yes, ftr i find the text to be entirely coherent. i think your personal animocity towards diana clouds your perception of her texts
14:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 14:10:14 asciilifeform[6]: phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?
14:43 asciilifeform phf: fwiw asciilifeform rather liked diana. (who was afaik the only 1 to e.g. actually read all of, at the time, ffa, and even wrote 'crib sheets' for others)
14:43 asciilifeform imho diana simply picked wrong ship to go down with.
14:43 signpost the women obeyed, which in-world is precisely what they were commanded.
14:44 asciilifeform aaha, was aboutt say
14:44 asciilifeform 'not bug, feature'
14:46 phf 􏿽that reading is too postmodern for my taste, where we condermn people for their beliefs and alliegences. kind of like bringing up that someone's nazi before a conversation with that person even has a chance to take place. early tmsr could be accused of mp apologism, by somebody lik
14:47 phf 􏿽e kako, even though our positions were internally consistent. how much validity there is to the position ought to be explored separate
14:47 asciilifeform fairnuff
14:48 signpost my read of that post is she's taking what she built for eulora and doing what she likes with it. and good for her; she should.
14:48 asciilifeform point was, asciilifeform was never able to properly hate diana -- possibly nonmaskable irq from sex organs, nfi. but per asciilifeform's pov, behaves 'like ant removed from anthill', maybe after n yrs can think like a human again
14:49 asciilifeform aaha
14:49 signpost that critique has to be born by all, not just her.
14:49 asciilifeform folx actually baking whatever goodies on own volition imho a++
14:49 signpost all larped, all failed, life goes on
14:50 signpost larp only assignable in retrospect anyway. maybe some other timeline we're all sitting at the first congress of tmsr.
14:50 phf well we're back in the argument from where my renewed participation in this venue started :> how much value there was to mp's approach, how much credit is his exclusive for establishing this approach, etc.
14:51 * signpost will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.
14:52 asciilifeform the folx for whom their work was 'ticket to mp lottery' -- walked. who remains -- presumably has 'biological itch in arse', curiosity. but asciilifeform can only speak for self there; fwiw not 'skipped beat' after 'tmsr kaput'
14:52 phf i still think that the log + blogs was a brilliant way to distill the essence of structured communication and adapt it to novel technology
14:52 asciilifeform 'intelligence amplification'(tm)
14:52 phf and ~personally~ i kind of dig the high culture "letters from M--" style that came with it
14:52 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform's ~entire interest in kompyooting.
14:53 asciilifeform there was 'sumthing for erryone' (or just short). some -- req'd an mp, some no
14:53 * signpost quite agrees
14:53 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-07 11:06:38 signpost: the hallowed status of the logs, and putting them at their right place, among a peerage.
14:55 phf i notice what kids these days call "code switch" when talking about tmsr business, my sentences start taking, with many assides and subcomments, a victorian literary shape, so as to, in the shortest way possible, communicate with highest precision all necessary thought, so as not insult esteemed reader with too low of s/n.
14:55 * asciilifeform for instance , interested in logical conclusion of cryptological wot, i.e. 'new internet' where 'freedom of association' via structured relat.s of trust. but this aint a seekrit.
14:56 * asciilifeform on other level, interested in ~physical~ 'new internet', but this is 'bridge too far' atm
14:56 phf and when reading diana's blog posts, i'm reminded of that particular style, since it rarely has an opportunity to present itself in the modern, decadent world.
14:57 * asciilifeform must bbl for a spell
14:57 signpost this kind of interwoven identity authorship in a peerage atop hypertext logs was/is a technological superpower, yes.
14:59 phf 􏿽asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered in
14:59 phf 􏿽my laboratory over the weekend will solve the problem of precise communication once and for all, so as there will be no confusion, when communicating amongst men, henceforth!"
15:03 phf 􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018493 << when i retire from my worldly responsibilities i'll sit down indeed to compose the authoritative encyclopedia of tmsr inventions, the marvelous gpg contract, the mechanised web of trust, the forum that is mediated by the electronic
15:03 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 14:51:40 signpost: will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.
15:03 phf 􏿽telegraph technology! the future that could've been
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
16:07 jonsykkel http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-12#1018239 << worx as speced in html draft
16:07 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-12 16:35:05 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: phf: addrcast & prod, but atm not fully worx ( partly b/c not erryone on latest ver. of blatta (nfi whether all worx in smalpest) ) partly on acct of symmetric NATs and 'hammer' not yet exists in blatta
16:13 asciilifeform phf: the 1 imho key win from 'press on technologies' is that they have a shelf life (unlike group of excitable shaheeds) and thereby can accumulate
16:15 asciilifeform e.g. lispm patiently waited for 3 decades; p2p mostly waited, 'frozen in amber', for 20y; rsa's been waiting since '77 and still waits
16:16 phf that position is self-evidently false, excalibur is entirely useless without an arthur to wield it
16:16 asciilifeform whereas 'gang of shaheeds', once becomes clear to'em that there aint anyffin ~novel~ to do (and esp. if goaded by charismatic fuhrer to throw themselves at enemy mg for ~0 reward) eventually goes home.
16:16 asciilifeform phf: excalibur precisely illustrative of the phakt tho -- it was able to wait for arthur
16:17 asciilifeform who, yes, req'd
16:18 phf i mean, we know where you stand on this subject, rehashing the same arguments over and over is kind of silly
16:18 asciilifeform even bitcoin still 'waiting', and likely will continue (enemy was able to smother the fire to an ember, but not put out)
16:19 phf but your arguments on the subject are always full of holes! "genera vs personality cult" genera always wins particularly if you opposite to some small time personality cult. but even there "genera still waits" and no indication it won't do so indefinitely
16:19 asciilifeform phf: was in re: earlier item. asciilifeform partial to efforts that at least potentially cumulative/multigenerational, rather than 'write in sand'.
16:19 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-14 14:59:24 phf[awt]: 􏿽asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered in
16:19 asciilifeform politicking -- 'writes in sand.'
16:20 asciilifeform and indeed 'if no arthur', excalibur may well 'wait' until vanishes under volcanic strata.
16:20 * asciilifeform not alleges otherwise.
16:22 * asciilifeform simply observes that politicking w/out novel tech not historically gives interesting result.
16:22 phf that's not "simply", that's an opinion statement, that just happens to coincide with your preferred opinion, presented as self evident!
16:26 phf without right kind of politcking can't produce galleons, sometimes it's the case of "too much politicking" like in feudal japan, but in other cases possibly that not enough. the oft cited example of disney executive herding animators
16:28 phf but also what's interesting, greece as the cradle of our civlization arguably produced a lot of interesting results, in thought and practice, but not just no novel tech, mocked and opposed technology as a less-than-manly enterprise
16:31 phf and unfortunately in the baby with bathwater department, i think that mp's point re "engineers" was fundamentally correct. mp was in fact often times correct, the way RT is correct about us politics: if you choose the right kind of truth, can easily wield it to support your argument, while keeping the truth true
16:35 phf 􏿽so one could make a pro technology argument by pulling a once in a lifetime technology like transistor, or marine chronometer, OR make a pro politicking argument by pull the heights of western culture. and then use either to support either "polishing a lense" that results in a life
16:35 phf 􏿽time dedicated to one or dozen very polished lens and nothing else OR encourage one petty tirant's dysfunctional tendencies
16:39 phf both directions are lacking, and the ~humor~ of my original statement, about the victorian technologist, is that attempting to solve communication problems with a technological wunderwaffen is as much a folly as trying to build a technology wunderwaffen through slave beatings
~ 34 minutes ~
17:14 asciilifeform phf: aint wrong, in either direction one can easily walk straight into own arse and never emerge.
17:15 * asciilifeform fwiw not 'indifferent to people-talking', hence wai put effort into trying to come up with tooling for subj, rather than disappearing into a verisimilitude-esque walk into some abstraction
~ 2 hours 52 minutes ~
20:07 lobbes asciilifeform: at the risk of sounding like a dingleberry, I think you (with laserlike precision I might add) just misunderstood the punchline of phf's victorian technologist analogy
20:07 lobbes feel free to dingle my berries if I'm wrong. (I just smoked a bunch of weed so I'll go back to read-only mode for now)
~ 27 minutes ~
20:35 asciilifeform lobbes: asciilifeform not telepath, and not infrequently misunderstands argument
20:36 asciilifeform pretty sure that understood phf's tho ( imho -- entirely reasonable admonition against '1nce the rockets go up, who cares where they come down, that aint my department, said wehrner von braun'(tm)(r)(lehrer) )
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